WWUTT 730 Q&A Father Forgive Them, Women Leading Music, and Modern Worship Songs?

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When Jesus prayed, Father, forgive them for they know not what they do, does that verse belong in the

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Bible? Can women be worship leaders? And what's the problem with some of the most popular worship songs?

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The answers to these questions when we understand the text. This is

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When We Understand The Text, a daily Bible study in the word of Christ in hope of eternal life, which

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God, who never lies, promised before the ages began. Tell your friends about our website at www .utt

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.com. Now here once again is Pastor Gabe. Thank you, Becky. You're welcome. So we have to apologize to our friend,

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Ms. Sonya. We do. Hi, friend. The whole thing that I explained on the podcast yesterday about forgetting to upload the podcast for Wednesday morning.

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Uh -huh. I said, I hope this hasn't thrown anybody off. And it did.

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And it threw off Ms. Sonya. She showed up at our house on Wednesday night. It's so funny you call her Ms. Sonya.

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We call her Ms. Sonya for our kids. Yeah, that's right. But it just comes out every now and again.

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Most references are Ms. Sonya. Yep. And then I say it kind of tongue in cheek when I'm with her.

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And now it's just, that's now the way that I always refer to her. She's just always Ms. Sonya. Anyway, Sonya, our friend.

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Yes. Showed up for Bible study at our house last night. She was so cute about it too.

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And we all kind of traced her steps over the course of the day and realized it was because Gabe did not have the podcast uploaded.

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She didn't know if it was supposed to be the New Testament podcast that day or the Old Testament podcast. And because it wasn't there, she was under the impression it was

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Thursday and she showed up here at our house Thursday night or Wednesday night. And she thought she was late. She was just super early.

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She came in, Becky wasn't here. She was helping her parents with something. And she was like, well, Gabe's here.

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They're still, the homeschool stuff that Becky's working on was all over the floor in the front room. Yeah, all over the floor.

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Oh my goodness. Where we do our Bible study. She's like, it's not cleaned up. Like usual. And just little by little, she put things together and realized we don't have

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Bible study tonight. Yeah, which was funny because I read that text to my mom and dad while I was there.

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And they were like, why didn't you tell us? It was Bible study night. Go, go, go. You need to go.

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And then I finished reading the text saying, it's Wednesday. And they're like, oh. So it fooled them too.

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Yep, they got it too. See, it's just a domino effect. So we do our

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Old Testament study at our house on Thursday night. That's right. It coincides with the Old Testament study I do on the podcast.

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But because of vacation. Couple hangups. Trips. Yeah, some different things.

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We're now behind in our Bible study at our home. And we've just finished up Ezra on the podcast and we're just starting

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Ezra next week in the Bible study. So, but we'll be able to polish off Ezra in like three weeks.

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So we'll catch up with where we're at in the podcast. Good, that'd be excellent. So a couple of weeks ago, a few weeks ago, we mentioned to our listeners that if you would like all of the what videos on a podcast flash drive, a podcast flash drive, on a thumb drive.

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There we go. There we go. On a flash drive. You just needed to send it to us with a self -addressed stamped envelope for us to be able to send it back.

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And I'll upload all the videos on there and send it back to you. Need about an eight gigabyte flash drive.

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And you're sending that to First Southern Baptist Church, 1220 West 8th Street, Junction City, Kansas, 66441.

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If my count is correct, I've received two of those flash drives and they have been filled up and sent back to you as of today.

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So however long that takes. There's no tracking numbers or whatnot, but anyway, I've sent those flash drives back.

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I hope they get to you and you will be edified by those videos. It's every video up through the socialism video that I just got done with.

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Very cool. And posted earlier this week. Next video is on microaggressions. Oh. And then intersectionality.

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So they'll already be behind. So you got an idea of where I'm going with the videos?

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It's all kind of social justice themed. Oh, yeah. So is it okay for Christians to be involved in this?

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Should we be using the language like the culture? Of course we should not. But showing you through those videos how these cultural concepts are secular and counter biblical.

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So these are the videos that are coming out little by little here. Microaggression and intersectionality, those are gonna be the next two.

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All right, being Friday, we take questions from the listeners and you can submit your questions to whenweunderstandthetext at gmail .com.

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Question number one comes from Jeremy and Jeremy says he's from Allen Park, Michigan, where they have the world's largest tire.

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Ooh. Imagine that, a car part landmark in Detroit.

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Right? Of course. It is the 80 foot tall Unaroyal tire that they have there in Allen Park.

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Wow, that's huge. Yep, that's rather interesting. Jeremy shared that little factoid with me. I like little factoids like that.

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I like big tires. Yeah, if you come from, you like big tires, that's right. Becky drove, what was the size of this truck?

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It was a 60 ton haul truck. Yeah, one of those giant dump trucks. Yep, Euclid R60. Interesting.

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Like you get it. If you wanted to look it up. As you get in the Tonka toy version for your kids, for your sons.

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Right, Becky drove the real thing. I did, it was awesome. So Jeremy's question here is regarding a textual critical issue.

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Several times this past week on the podcast, this was when I was at the close of 2

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Timothy. You mentioned when Jesus said, "'Father, forgive them, "'for they know not what they do.'"

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I have heard that we do not know for sure if Christ said that or not because the verse has a difficult textual critical history.

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What do you think about that? Thank you for your ministry. It has been a blessing to me, your brother in Christ.

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Well, this comes from Luke 23 34. And Jesus said, this was while he was on the cross, "'Father, forgive them, "'for they know not what they do.'"

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I'm gonna go back to verse 32 here. "'Two others who were criminals "'were led away to be put to death with him. "'And when they came to the place "'that is called the skull, "'there they crucified him and the criminals, "'one on his right and one on his left.

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"'And Jesus said, "'Father, forgive them, "'for they know not what they do. "'And they cast lots to divide his garments.'"

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So some of the early manuscripts do not contain the first part of verse 34. Jesus said, "'Father, forgive them, "'for they know not what they do.'"

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But those early manuscripts do contain, "'And they cast lots to divide his garments.'"

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So where does the first part of that verse come from? And if there are textual variants that do not have the passage, especially the earliest manuscripts, is it a later edition from a scribe and should not be considered as part of Luke's original text?

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So was this something that was not written by Luke, but was actually written by a scribe at a much later date?

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Now, James White, Dr. James White has said that this passage does not appear in the

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Bible or should not appear in the Bible because it was not written by the hand of Luke. It was clearly written by somebody else.

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That's what Dr. White would say about it. But I have heard different opinions from different scholars. Denny Burke wrote one of the earliest articles that I read on this particular passage.

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This was back in 2011. So I had not even been a pastor for a year when I read this column from Denny Burke.

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And it's simply titled, Did Jesus Pray, Father Forgive Them? So you can look that up on Google if you wanna read the full column from Denny.

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So here's what he had to say. Luke 23, 34 is one of the most famous sayings of the Bible because it is one of the seven last words of Christ from the cross.

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Father forgive them for they know not what they are doing. This is a beloved text of scripture and for good reason.

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Here, Jesus models for us what he in fact commands all of his disciples to do. Even as his enemies torture and kill him,

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Jesus loves his enemies and prays for them. I delivered a sermon at my church yesterday on this text.

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But when I began preparing for the message last week, I wrestled with a significant textual difficulty that occurs precisely at this point in the text.

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The problem is this, some of our earliest and best Greek manuscripts do not contain these words.

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There is no prayer at all in these early witnesses. This omission has led the editors of both the

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UBS and the Nestle All in Texts to place the words in double brackets. And here is how that verse appears in NA 27.

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Now what I'm reading from here in front of me is the NA 28. Have you noticed this isn't a usual Bible that I have in front of me here?

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Right. I did notice. This is the Nestle All in 28. And in the 28, it does not have the brackets around the first part of verse 34.

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It just has a notation. And then down at the bottom, it says some manuscripts omit the sentence and Jesus dot, dot, dot what they do.

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So there are references that some manuscripts do not have this. Although in the notation in my

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Nestle All in, it doesn't even say the earliest manuscripts do not have this notation. So then going on,

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Denny Burke says, the double brackets enclose all of Jesus' prayer. That prayer that we just mentioned,

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Father, please forgive them, and indicate that the prayer is a later addition to the text that is not from the pen of Luke.

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The editors of the UBS text give the omission a grade of A, which means that they think that it is absolutely certain that these words did not come from Luke.

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Some other scribes added them later. P75 is an ancient papyrus that goes back to at least the early third century.

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This is the oldest Greek manuscript that we know of containing this verse, and the prayer is not in it.

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In his textual commentary on the Greek New Testament, Bruce Metzger cites two main arguments against the authenticity of this saying of Jesus.

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Number one, that early witnesses like P75 omit it, and number two, the improbability of later scribes omitting such words.

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So if these words were omitted, what reason would a scribe have of keeping these words out?

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So in the process of textual criticism, somebody like Bruce Metzger would say that a scribe has no reason to omit those words.

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Therefore, since the words did not appear in P75, which simply is short for papyrus 75, it's a 75 papyrus that has this text from Luke in it.

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Since there's no reason for a later scribe to omit the verse, therefore we must conclude that there were no additions earlier than P75 that would have contained it.

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So it would have been added by a scribe later on and was not actually written by Luke.

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And then Denny Burke goes on, so is this the end of the story? Are we really to conclude that this prayer is a non -canonical addition to the text of the

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New Testament? I don't think so. In fact, I feel confident that Bruce Metzger and the editors of the

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UBS text have gotten this one wrong. And by the way, the UBS text is the

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Novum Testamentum Grace from the United Bible Society. So that's why it's called

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UBS. I didn't specify that earlier. So then going on, do you have an addition to make there?

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UBS is easier to say. That was it. So that's all I was gonna say.

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Becky's absorbing all of the textual criticism that's going on here. And Burke even makes a comment early in his article that this gets really technical.

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So you're kind of getting that feel. Oh yeah. The technicality of it here. So the earliest manuscripts that omit the verse are not as conclusive as it might seem.

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Burke goes on to say, Joelle de Lobel has shown that the text's appearance in Taschian's Diatessaron, which is in the late second century, predates the earliest

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Greek witness, P75, which was in the third century that omits it.

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So the text appears in Diatessaron, but it does not appear in P75.

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So there actually is an earlier witness that has this text in it, even though it did not appear in the papyrus.

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Even though the evidence from the Diatessaron is indirect, all that survives is a commentary on this book, we should not dismiss this important early testimony that the saying is actually from Luke.

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The supposition that later scribes would not have omitted these words is also suspect.

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Leon Morris argued in his 1974 commentary on Luke that early copyists may have been tempted to omit the words by the reflection that perhaps

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God had not forgiven the guilty Jewish nation. So if you are reading the

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UBS Greek New Testament, don't let the A grade in favor of the omission throw you for a loop.

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There are good reasons for regarding this saying as authentic to Luke. It would be a shame for pastors and teachers to pass over this text simply because of the

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A grade from the editors. There are solid reasons to preach it as an authentic canonical saying of Jesus.

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And I had to appeal to, there you go. I had to appeal to an authority much greater than I because I would not have been able to give you the textual criticism on that particular passage.

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It's not my expertise. So anyway, I hope that - So thank you for doing the legwork, Burke. Yeah, appreciate it,

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Denny. There you go, Jeremy, there is your answer. And I think you can be confident in receiving that text as actually having been written by Dr.

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Luke. Next question, this comes from Daryl in New Jersey. Dear Pastor Gabe and Becky, my wife and I lead worship at our church.

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We've been leading for the last year and a half or so. Lately, she has felt a little convicted on if she should be in that role.

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She prays during service, but doesn't really speak otherwise. While there are no scriptures about the role of worship leader, there are those that speak of men's and women's roles.

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Would her leading worship be considered as an unbiblical position? Both of your thoughts are appreciated.

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So my thoughts and your thoughts. All right. That's what I'm guessing that means. Thanks for the work you both do.

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You actually inspired my wife and I to start a podcast. Congratulations.

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Yes. Hope it's going well. So of course, the references that Daryl is making to passages that talk about men's roles and women's roles,

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I would think specifically what he's thinking about is what we read in 1 Timothy 2 and 3. Right. So in 1 Timothy 2, 11, let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.

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And then verse 12, I do not permit a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man.

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Rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

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Yet she will be saved through childbearing if they continue in faith and love and holiness with self -control.

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And then you get to chapter three, qualifications for overseers. The saying is trustworthy. If anyone desires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task.

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Therefore, an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober -minded, self -controlled, et cetera, et cetera.

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So there you have delineations in men's and women's roles. It is not for a woman to be a pastor.

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Right. That is a role that is left for a man to fill. But very specifically, men need to step up into those roles and lead.

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And be those leading. Man up, there you go. As the saying has been going around on Twitter anyway.

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She said it to me the other day. There's somebody I was making a joke with and Becky goes, you just need to tell him to man up.

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That was coming from my wife right there. That wasn't supposed to come from the wife. I didn't say who it was related to.

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I dropped no names. This is true. I did not drop any names. So anyway, so yeah, there are clear roles there for men and women.

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And as we continue to read through Titus, as we continue in this study, we're gonna get to chapter two, where we see that the order of mentorship in the church is supposed to be older men are setting the example for the entire church.

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Right. The pastors first, because we're gonna read about qualifications for overseers and that's what we're gonna get to next week.

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That's in verses five through nine. So the pastor is mentioned first, but then as you go through the structure in the church, you have older men setting the examples next for the rest of the church.

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And the older men are to mentor the younger men and the older women are to mentor the younger women.

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And this is necessary for a functioning church. If you had a church that was all men, you would have a dysfunctional church.

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Right. If you had a church that was all women, you would have a dysfunctional church. Right. But as the current debate, at least in the

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Southern Baptist Convention is related to complementarianism and empowering women, that's the word that keeps getting used, which

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I can't stand that word. No, I don't like that word either. Yeah, ministry is not about empowering. Yeah.

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You're humble. You are humbly submitting yourself to the ministry. Right, yeah, empowering, which we can't empower anybody anyway.

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The Holy Spirit gives power. Right. We are supposed to humble ourselves, clothe yourselves with humility is what

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Peter says in 1 Peter 5. So there are certainly roles for men and women both in the church.

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And complementarianism is the idea that with the men fulfilling their roles and the women fulfilling their roles, we complement one another in our strengths and weaknesses.

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That's right. And work together. And then you have a functioning body of Christ. The way that we are supposed to be.

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So yeah, clearly there are specific roles, but how about when you're putting somebody in front of the whole congregation in a position other than pastor?

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So namely in this particular question that Daryl is asking the role of worship leader. Right. Is it okay for a worship leader to be a man, or can a, well, of course it's okay to be a man, but is that role, because I think

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Daryl is accepting that. He's accepting. Right. Yeah, of course it's okay that he's a man, but can the worship leader also be a woman?

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And how about husband and wife duos? What are your thoughts? I like the husband and wife duo.

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Boy, I love the husband and wife duo idea. That would be awesome. In fact, I pray that the

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Lord would send us a husband and wife duo to lead worship at our church. That'd be so fun. That's what

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I, that would be ideal to me. I would love to have a husband and wife duo leading praise and worship, our hymns in our church services.

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I would just love to see it. And we actually had. Yeah, shh, don't talk about that. I'm gonna tear up.

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They just left. I have to, I've started now and everybody's gonna be in mystery.

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So we just had a husband and wife duo. They weren't leading, sometimes they did.

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When we went on vacation, they would lead, but they hadn't quite got their confidence there yet to do it every time.

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Right. So they were back up, but they were still wonderful. It was wonderful having them both in our worship.

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I don't, choir, it's not really a choir. They're just our worship band that we would have on Sunday morning.

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And we just had to say goodbye to him a week ago, almost two weeks ago now. So, but the husband is being called into ministry.

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And so we were able to pray over him as he's gonna go off to seminary next. Yep. And then he's got some.

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Yep. He's got some friends that are planning a church and he's gonna help plant a church with them. And so that's wonderful.

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I mean, it's great news. You just hate to have to let people go, but we have to, that's the nature of our church.

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We're so transient. We have to let people go all the time. It's never easy. Yeah. So we certainly welcome women into our praise band.

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We have a high school girl right now who also plays violin on occasion. Right.

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And if anybody steps up and even wants to lead the songs who is a woman, I would certainly let her do that.

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And we have, we have had women in those roles before. And by the way, two of the most prominent sound teaching churches in the

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US that I would consider, St. Andrew's Chapel in Sanford, Florida, which is the church that R .C.

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Sproul pastored for so many years. Right. And also Grace Community Church out in Sun Valley, California, which is the church that John MacArthur currently pastors.

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Both of those churches have put women in the position of leading the worship before. And so if you look at those two churches and you see it acceptable that they're doing it, considering the sound doctrine that comes out of both of those ministries, then

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I would say by their example, you're perfectly fine. Right. To allow a woman to be in that position, leading a congregation in singing worship songs.

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I think that's perfectly acceptable. Now, whether or not a woman should do that by herself,

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I would say that for the sake of everyone's conscience. Right. You shouldn't.

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Right. If she's gonna be up there, put another man up there with her as well. Or like in the case of Keith and Christine Getty, you've got

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Keith at the piano and Kristen is singing. So that's great. There's a husband and wife duo there.

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I wonder if they're available, by the way. We could hire them and get them to come to our church. That would be within the budget.

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Probably not a reality. Yeah. I'm much wishful thinking going on there.

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Oh, yeah, daydreaming over here. But anyway, so, and to put this to you as well,

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Daryl, to you and your wife, you said that she is currently feeling a little convicted as to whether or not she should be in that role.

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If that's her feeling, if she feels convicted that she shouldn't be doing it, then she shouldn't be doing it.

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Right. So she does need to be confident that what she is doing is not contrary to the word of God.

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Because otherwise, if she is convinced in her mind that she might be doing something contrary to what the word of God allows, then she would be sinning if she went ahead and did it anyway, regardless of whether or not the word of God says it's okay.

23:19

Well, I would think it depends on where your focus is. Is your focus on you? Because if my focus was on me and I'm up there, then

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I'm trying to get you all to pay attention to me instead of trying to point you to Christ in the songs and everything.

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That's all supposed to be worshiping God, not worshiping what

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I'm doing here. Pay attention to me. Drawing attention to myself. Yeah, so the job of the worship leader, which

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I don't even like that term, the music leader. Music leader. Because the pastor is as much of a worship leader.

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So the job of that person is to lead the congregation in these songs of praise that we are lifting up to the

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Lord that oftentimes are very confessional, as much as they are also praising the

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Lord in heaven above for his grace and his mercy and his love. They are prayers.

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They ask the Lord to continue to bless us as we lift these praises up to you.

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And so the person who is standing up there is just leading the congregation in unison in these songs that are being sung.

24:28

Everybody's together. Everybody's participating in it. The words are coming from everybody. So it doesn't matter whether you have a woman in the congregation or you have a woman up on stage, this is something that everybody is participating in.

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Whereas the teaching that's coming from the pulpit is specifically being done by the pastor who's standing up there.

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But maybe she's uncomfortable with the in -between, like where you're praying and where you're talking about, like where your heart should be and that sort of thing.

24:53

Maybe she's uncomfortable leading that part. Well, if that is a discomfort that she has, then don't do it.

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Don't do it. And leave it up perhaps to her husband, to Daryl to do that. So he would handle the prayer part, but she can still be up there continuing to lead the music.

25:11

Oh yeah. Leading everybody in unison in these songs that we are singing together in one voice.

25:19

Which all of this is kind of a, all of it's a picture of heaven. Oh yeah. It's beautiful. We'll be doing this together forever around the throne of God, singing these praises in one tremendous voice.

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And John has some very colorful language and revelation to describe it. Just this massive voice that's being lifted up in praise to our

25:37

God and savior. I can't wait. Voices by the way, that'll be made up of men and women.

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Yes. For we are all equal inheritors of the kingdom of God.

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Praise the Lord for that. So there you go, Daryl. I hope that helps you. And if you need any follow -up from that, feel free to ask.

25:56

Yeah, please do. Yeah. Any other questions that you might have. All right. This one comes from Kevin. He says, hello,

26:01

Pastor Gabe and Becky. Hello. I know that you have touched on the issue of music. We're going to continue on the theme of music here.

26:09

All right. You've touched on the issue of music a few times, but I was wondering if there was a way for you to put together a podcast devoted to it or a video devoted to the difference in a man -centered praise song like Bethel or Jesus culture and gospel saturated

26:23

God honoring worship songs. Thank you for all that you do to help people understand the text.

26:29

Oh, that's fun. Well, if we do that, we might do that sometime in the future, but I can at least take, you know, the last 15 or so minutes that we have here.

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And we can run down some of the popular songs that are being sung in churches right now.

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All of these come from the CCLI list. So these are the top 10 most popular songs that are sung in churches in the

26:50

Western world. Okay. It might not be that the CCLI just registers the United States. It might include

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Western Europe as well. Okay. So we'll just say the Western English speaking world. Number one, the number one most sung song in churches in America right now.

27:08

Jesus loves me. No. Oh. Now see, yeah, there's no - Holy, holy, holy. There's no list of songs like that.

27:15

Oh. They're not going through the hymns. They're going through those songs that are copyrighted. Oh. That a church has to pay for the rights to use.

27:23

Well, of course, because then you can keep track of that. Right. That makes sense. They have to keep track of that because they got to pay their guys. Exactly.

27:28

So anyway. Okay. Otherwise, I would say the most sung song in churches anywhere in the world has got to be

27:34

Amazing Grace. Yeah, that's true. I didn't even think about that one yet. I really don't think there would be a song bigger than that one.

27:41

But anyway, so number one, the number one most sung modern praise and worship song.

27:47

Do we need a drum roll? No. Not for this song. It's What a

27:53

Beautiful Name by Hillsong. Okay. So is there any problem with this song? I wouldn't sing it just because it comes from Hillsong.

28:00

Right. And their doctrine is false. Brian Houston, who is the lead pastor of Hillsong, is a, he is a prosperity teacher.

28:08

He wrote a book called You Need More Money or something like that. And he talks about in that book, things like you need to dress up in a suit and walk around looking like a million bucks because you want a million bucks.

28:21

Oh, okay. That's kind of a paraphrase, but it's stuff like that. So anyway. I remember hearing stuff like that.

28:27

Right, it's totally prosperity doctrine that's all throughout the book. And plus you've got churches like Hillsong, New York, where Carl Lentz, who's the lead pastor there, when he was in that interview with Oprah.

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Okay. She asked if Jesus is the only way to God. And Carl Lentz said no.

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He said no. When I read John 14, six, I am the way, the truth, and the life, what I read there is Jesus is the road marker.

28:53

It's like, what does that even mean? So anyway, Hillsong's a false teaching church and no one should have anything to do with them.

29:00

And I mean, if somebody is singing a Hillsong song at their church and they're doing that in ignorance, not knowing anything about the church,

29:08

I don't think you're gonna be singing anything wrong because their lyrics for the most part are pretty fine. But you do have some hints in there of some things that are a little bit questionable sometimes.

29:19

What would you call it? Christian -ese? Yeah, it's Christian -ese, right. Yeah. So here's the - Which is a made up word.

29:26

Just so we're not confusing anybody. I use it quite a bit. Kind of like when you say legalese, whenever you get into the legal doctrine.

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Well, if you know to say all the right Christian words and you sound like a Christian, but there's -

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But you're not. Maybe you're not. You just know how to say the right things. That's called Christian -ese.

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So here's what we have in the lyrics of the song, What a Beautiful Name. Number one, most popular praise and worship song in the country.

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You were the word at the beginning, one with God, the Lord most high. Your hidden glory in creation now revealed in you, our

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Christ. Doesn't rhyme, but okay. What a beautiful name it is. What a beautiful name it is. The name of Jesus Christ, my

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King. What a beautiful name it is. Nothing compares to this. What a beautiful name it is. The name of Jesus. You didn't want heaven without us.

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What? Whoa, hang on, wait on, hang on. Huh? What? So that's the thing with Hillsong tunes.

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Like you can go through the lyrics and it's like, okay, it sounds fine for the most part, but then you'll hit something that'll make you go, is that right?

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Is that, what? Make you go, hmm. You didn't want heaven without us.

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Does that mean you didn't want to be in heaven without us? Or you didn't want heaven to be without us?

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I don't, I don't know. It's an unusual statement. Okay, keep going. Maybe they just wanted it to rhyme.

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So Jesus, you brought heaven down, which is also not true. So when

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Jesus is saying the kingdom of heaven is at hand, the kingdom of heaven can be likened to, you know, and then he would give a parable to compare the kingdom of heaven, that we are part of the kingdom people of God now, if we are followers of Jesus Christ.

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This is not the same thing as saying heaven came down. Because heaven is not here. Right. Heaven is not on earth.

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Right. Heaven is wherever God is, wherever he dwells in his holy habitation.

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So understand that clearly, because yes, the Holy Spirit is here. He dwells within us, but we're talking the holy habitation of God.

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That is God in his throne room in heaven. It is separate from earth. It is not here.

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So that hasn't happened yet. So that would be confusing to people. It's kind of a confusing statement.

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Right. It's not quite doctrinally accurate. Okay. We're not going to be standing in the pulpit preaching, heaven is here, because it's not.

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Right. Heaven is not here. Because then it'd be the end of the world. Right. Then we're done. We're out of here.

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We're done. So yeah, so there's just, there's statements like this. It's just kind of like throwing it out there for the sake of what, rhyming?

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I guess. You brought heaven down. My sin was great. Your love was greater.

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What could separate us now? So anyway, so that's it. And then it's what a beautiful name it is.

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What a beautiful name it is. And then you go back into the chorus again. All right. That's the most popular tune in America right now.

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And that's it? That one from Hillsong. That's it. All right. I think there's a bridge something in there, but I didn't copy those lyrics.

32:26

Oh, okay. Usually there is. That's the pattern that follows. So like I said, with most

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Hillsong tunes, they're okay for the most part. You know, we're getting a little nitpicky there.

32:36

Right. Though there are legitimate concerns. They are. But it's not like singing that song, you're singing anything heretical.

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Whether you're singing it from Hillsong or you're singing from Jesus Culture or Bethel Music. I haven't heard any songs from either one of them yet that seem to convey heretical concepts, but knowing what they teach is heresy and then reading that into their songs, then

32:59

I hear heresy. But you're also putting it through your own filter. Exactly. And so if it, I mean, you could totally make it sound legit if you're putting it through your own filter, it's what their intent is.

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Right, you could either make it sound really good or really bad. And not everybody has your filter. Not everybody has the same filter.

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And so if you're, if a new person, a new Christian is coming in, they're gonna read the lyrics and think, oh yeah, okay,

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I get it now. And it's like, no, no, no, no, hold on. And then they're gonna be really lost and confused. Right, even the songs we sing need to be doctrinally sound.

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They do. It's so important. They need to be theologically accurate. So the songs, but at the same time, based on what it was that you just said, somebody could be singing these songs just not knowing the doctrine of either of these churches.

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True. And so we need to show grace to Christians who don't know any better. Oh yes. And not try to knock them over the head with this.

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Be patient with it. But if you are convicted because you know that church is not a sound teaching church, then we should not be attracting people to their music.

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So we're not going to display their music. Right. And I think it's ignorant if you are convinced that, well,

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I can sing the songs and it doesn't really attract people to that church or their doctrine, that's. It does.

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Yeah, it does. It does. Because if you go on YouTube, it's all under the same, oh,

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I can look at all of this stuff. And it's, you know, because I mean, you look at one and it's like, this is catchy.

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And then you look at another and then you're like, hmm, I wonder what that church is and what they learn there. I had a really close

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Christian friend. Yeah, I had a close Christian friend here in Kansas that when they got married, they decided they were going to move to Australia and attend

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Hillsong. Oh wow. And they did, and I don't know what ever happened to them after that, but it went from being doctrinally sound for the most part to giving up their entire livelihood and going to Australia so they could attend

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Hillsong Church. Wow. That was exactly why they went down there. Anyway, okay, so let's keep going here.

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The number two song. Number two. Number two. All that time. And this is a couple of years ago, this was the number one song.

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So it's still in the top. Oh wow. Still in the top two. Very popular. Yep. And this one comes from Bethel Church.

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So the top two songs are Hillsong and Bethel. Number two is called

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This is Amazing Grace. And so it kind of takes some of the lyrics of Amazing Grace, takes the concept of Amazing Grace.

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The song was written by Phil Wickham and Jeremy Riddle, who is the worship leader at Bethel Church.

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All right. So the lyrics begin, who breaks the power of sin and darkness? Whose love is mighty and so much stronger, the

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King of glory, the King above all Kings? Who shakes the whole earth with holy thunder and leaves us breathless in awe and wonder, the

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King of glory, the King above all Kings. This is amazing grace. This is unfailing love, that you would take my place, that you would bear my cross.

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Now I understand the concept there, but we do have a cross to bear. We do.

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So it's not like, yes, Jesus died on the cross for our sins and he took the penalty that we deserved, but that's different than saying that he bore our cross because Jesus absolutely said that if any of you would be my disciples, you must deny yourself, take up your cross daily and follow me.

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Right. That's Romans nine, or I'm sorry, Luke 9, 23. So that's right.

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That line is a little funny there. And that's in the chorus. It's just again. Oh, so you sing that over and over.

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Yeah, you sing that part over and over. You lay down your life that I would be set free. Oh Jesus, I sing for all that you've done for me.

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Who brings our chaos back into order. See, I got a problem with that line too, because sometimes

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God doesn't bring our chaos into order. So true. Sometimes our lives are just chaotic.

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And as Paul says in second Corinthians one, it's either verse eight or nine, these things have happened so that you would rely more on God who raises the dead.

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That's right. So the Lord absolutely. Because you have no control over it. Yeah, you have no control over your situation.

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You are to praise God in all circumstances. For this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you, as Paul said to the

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Thessalonians, give praise to God in all circumstances, give thanks to him. So sometimes God doesn't bring our chaos back into order.

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And you're gonna notice that with just about all of these songs in the top 10, it's never bad news.

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It's never anything that might be a disruption in my life. It's always,

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God has made everything great. That's just, and in the spiritual sense, yeah. But life is still hard.

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It is. And we need to be taught to continue to praise God even through the most difficult of circumstances.

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Circumstances are still difficult because we live in a fallen world that has been subjected to futility because of our sin.

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This just keeps springing to mind our friend, Justin Peters. Right, who has cerebral palsy.

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And yet gives praise to God. I love his spirit. I just love his spirit. What a great witness he is.

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So going on down the list here, is I wanna make sure we get to this song before the end of the program here.

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So the number three song is 10 ,000 Reasons, Bless the Lord by Matt Redman. Okay. And I like that song.

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In fact, I would even say that Matt Redman has written the best modern praise and worship song that's sung in most of these churches.

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And it's the song, Blessed Be Your Name. Okay. I love that song. It's not a hymn, it doesn't have the hymn style to it.

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It's very much that praise and worship style. But I think it's the best modern praise and worship song out there.

38:41

Yeah. Blessed Be Your Name is a terrific song. That's the first one that you've mentioned that I actually know. Okay, there you go, right.

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Well, there's a reason why I'm not playing these songs. I'm just reading you the lyrics of these songs.

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That's totally fine. So the next song number four is a group called All Sons and Daughters. I've met them by the way.

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Okay. And the song is called Great Are You Lord? And it's fine. I'm not real crazy about All Sons and Daughters as a music band, but the song is all right for the most part.

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One of the lines that's in there is, you restore every heart that is broken. And it's just kind of the same thing as who puts our chaos back into order.

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Right. So sometimes you have a broken heart and you need to praise God through that brokenness that you are experiencing.

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Right. And you may never feel a resolve from that until you get to heaven.

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Right. I would not have leaned so much on the Lord if I had not gone through that horrible time in my life.

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Yeah. And so there's no way that I would wish that upon anybody else, but there's no way that I would wish that away from myself either because that just made me lean on him so much more that I never knew it was possible.

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Amen. So. Amen. So he does restore every heart that's broken, but sometimes

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God puts the things in your life that end up breaking your heart. And again, that's a testing that the Lord does for every one of us.

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Right. So then number five is Chris Tomlin, Good Good Father. And it's okay.

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And I understand why people love this song. It is a very, very popular song. But the part that I have trouble with is how much you're singing, it's who

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I am, it's who I am, it's who I am in the chorus. So the chorus goes, you're a good, good father.

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It's who you are, it's who you are, it's who you are. And I'm loved by you. It's who

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I am, it's who I am, it's who I am. That's odd. And see, this is an example of the song is fine, really.

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It's a fine song. I just don't think it belongs in corporate worship. Yeah. Because corporate worship is not about me.

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Right. It's all of us. That's why I kind of like it. Yeah, it's all of us as the church together singing and praising

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God. And yet the majority of these songs say, I, I, I, or me, me, me, not us and we, and here we are.

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It's not in the collective sense. Right. It's very personal. Because these songs are written to be played on the radio, that's why.

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They want the radio royalties from it as much as they also want the, what do you call it?

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I can't remember the... Man, I took all the classes on this and everything and all my terminology is escaping me here.

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So anyway, so they want the royalties. That's why, it's why they've written the songs the way they are. They wanna use Becky. Exactly, yeah,

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Becky. Becky the Demographic. Yes. And her name is Becky. I wrote a blog on that a few years ago.

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Yeah, I did. Yeah, I talked about that. I wonder if I read that. Oh yeah, you did. You read it. I probably did. It's been too many, too many nights past.

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I've slept since then. I have. So the next one. I need to reread that.

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Number six song is called Lord, I Need You by Matt Marr. Okay. And he's a

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Roman Catholic. Okay. And so I don't sing songs by Matt Marr in our church because he's

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Roman Catholic. Roman Catholic Church is apostate. They do not know the true

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Christ of the Bible. So the, and that's not to say, make sure I cover all my bases here.

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It's not to say there are no Christians in the Catholic Church, but if they are truly growing in their knowledge and understanding of God, according to his word, and they're comparing that with the

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Catholic, with what the Catholic Church teaches, then I would hope that the Holy Spirit is convicting their hearts to realize

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I should not stay here. Right. And they would get out of that church knowing that they are heretical.

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They teach that you have to have works and faith in order to be saved. When the

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Bible says that it is only by grace through faith in Christ that a person is saved.

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Amen. So just adding that caveat in there. So Matt Marr being Roman Catholic, he writes this song called

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Lord, I Need You. And there are a lot of songwriters on this song, Christy Knuckles, Daniel Carson, Jesse Reeves, and Christian Stanfill in addition to Matt Marr, that's five people.

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Two names that are not in those list of writers are Annie Sherwood Hawks and Robert Lowry.

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Why would I include those two names? I have no idea. Because this song is a rip off of I Need Thee Every Hour.

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Oh. But they did not include the names Annie Sherwood Hawks and Robert Lowry who originally wrote the song.

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Well. So I would just tell you folks, avoid Matt Marr songs and just sing I Need Thee Every Hour.

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Right. It's a better song anyway. There you go. Problem solved. Yes. So going on to song number seven.

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So Lord, I Need You is a rip off of I Need Thee Every Hour. Song number seven is a rip off of The Solid Rock.

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This is the song Cornerstone by Hillsong Worship. And it's exactly the lyrics from The Solid Rock with a chorus thrown in.

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Christ alone, Cornerstone, the weak made strong in the Savior's love. Through the storm, through it all, he is

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Lord. I'm trying to do that off the top of my head because I didn't write the chorus down. But I would just say, forego

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Cornerstone by Hillsong Worship and just sing The Solid Rock. Besides, in The Solid Rock, there's a verse that's not included in Cornerstone and it's this one.

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His oath, his covenant, his blood, support me in the whelming flood. When all around my soul gives way, he then is all my hope and stay.

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Amen. On Christ, the solid rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand, all other ground is sinking sand.

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That line, by the way, the chorus is also not in Cornerstone. They've knocked that one out. Cornerstone is not a better song.

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Just sing The Solid Rock. Right. So next one, number eight, How Great Is Our God by Chris Tomlin.

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That song's fine. In fact, there's a verse in there that I love. In the second verse, he says, the Godhead three in one, father, spirit, son.

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And you don't have many songs that honor the Trinity like that. So I do like that one about Chris Tomlin.

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Not crazy about Chris Tomlin songs, but that's an okay song. Number nine, another Bethel music song,

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King of My Heart. And this one is just repetitive. You are good, oh, oh, you are good.

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You are good, oh, oh, you are good. You are good, oh, oh, you are good. You are good, oh, oh.

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Sorry. That's it. I couldn't hold it together anymore. I was reading that one word for word, so.

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And then number 10. Sorry. Lion and the Lamb by Bethel music.

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And so you've got in this list, you've got three songs by Bethel, two by Hillsong, one by a

45:48

Roman Catholic, seven songs right there that just based on the teaching of those songwriters, you can completely knock out.

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Ouch. And then two songs by Chris Tomlin and one by Matt Redman.

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That's the other three. So where do you finally get to a song where the sound is song and the sound is song and it's doctrine, right?

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Your tide's all tongued up tonight. The song is sound and it's doctrine and the songwriters are sound in their doctrine as well.

46:18

You'd have to get to song number 11. You got to jump out of the top 10, you get to song number 11, In Christ Alone by Keith.

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And Keith Getty and Stuart Townend are the two artists or the two songwriters behind it. But you often hear it sung by Keith Getty and Kristen, his wife.

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So, but that's not the song I'm gonna play for you here as we wrap this up. One of my all time favorite songwriters is the hymnist,

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Robert Lowry. Marty mentioned his name once. Right. He wrote, I Need Thee Every Hour.

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And he also wrote Nothing But The Blood of Jesus. Okay. And he wrote one of my all time favorite songs,

46:55

How Can I Keep From Singing? And this is a lesser known hymn. If you have a more modern hymnal, this hymn is probably not in it.

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Which is - That's a bummer. Yeah, it's really disappointing because it is a beautiful song. So taking all these lyrics that we've just read from these modern choruses, let me read this one from How Can I Keep From Singing.

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My life flows on in endless song, above earth's lamentation.

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I catch the sweet though far off hymn that hails a new creation. What do we already have here in this song?

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Robert Lowry is saying this earth is miserable. And I hear a far off endless song that hails a new creation.

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No storm can shake my inmost calm while to that rock I'm clinging.

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Since Christ is Lord of heaven and earth, how can I keep from singing?

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You've already got goosebumps, right? I'm already tearing up. I am too. I didn't wanna say that, but like I -

47:55

Goosebumps, sure. We'll go with that. Yep. So how can I keep from singing? Because Christ is

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Lord of heaven and earth and it's all on him. Everything is on him. Through all the tumult and the strife,

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I hear that music ringing. It finds an echo in my soul.

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How can I keep from singing? We're hearing Robert Lowry saying, I'm praising God in the midst of tumult and strife.

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Yep. Times are hard. Life is tough, but I'm praising God because as Paul said in 2

48:28

Corinthians 1, he is the God of all comfort and the father of mercies. What though my joys and comforts die,

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I know my savior liveth. What though the darkness gather round, songs in the night he giveth.

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The peace of Christ makes fresh my heart, a fountain ever springing.

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All things are mine and I am his. How can I keep from singing? It's a completely different approach.

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Oh yeah. To singing than what we heard in those other songs. And so now having read the lyrics to you, now you get to hear the song.

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Buddy Green has very much a country flavor to him. And so that's what you're gonna hear in this song.

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But listen to it and this will be our closing. All right. Instead of wrapping up with prayer, this is our prayer.

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Amen. Here is Buddy Green with, How Can I Keep From Singing? My life flows on in endless song

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Above earth's lamentation I hear the sweet though far off hymn

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That hails a new creation No storm can shake my inmost calm

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While to that rock I'm clinging Since Christ is

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Lord of heaven and earth How can

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I keep from singing? Through all the tumult and the strife

50:10

I hear the music ringing It sounds an echo in my soul

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How can I keep from singing? No storm can shake my inmost calm

50:30

While to that rock I'm clinging Since Christ is

50:37

Lord of heaven and earth How can

50:42

I keep from singing? Play it Kevin. guitar solo

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What though my joys and comforts die

51:10

The Lord my Savior liveth What though the darkness gathers round Songs in the night

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He giveth I lift mine eyes the cloud rose thin I see the blue above Him And day by day this pathway smooths

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Since first I learned to love Him No storm can shake my inmost calm

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While to that rock I'm clinging Since Christ is

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Lord of heaven and earth How can

52:02

I keep from singing? piano solo

52:11

Peace of Christ makes fresh my heart

52:33

A fountain ever springing All things are mine since I am

52:42

His Oh how can I keep from singing? Sing it with us.

52:48

No storm can shake my inmost calm While to that rock

52:56

I'm clinging Since Christ is Lord of heaven and earth

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How can I keep from singing? No storm can shake my inmost calm

53:14

While to that rock I'm clinging Since Christ is

53:21

Lord of heaven and earth How can