A Biblical Case for Church Membership

Welcome to The Dividing Line for today. My name is Pastor John Sampson. It's a joy and delight to guest host here on The Dividing Line with Dr. James White being away today. We're going to go right to Scripture, White, right after we have a word of prayer.

Father, we thank you for the Word of God with just increasing gladness in our heart that you've given us access to your truth. The sovereign God has spoken. We ask that the same Holy Spirit who has inspired this Word would now help us to see clearly what you have revealed in this Word.

We pray in Jesus' name. Amen. I want to start by asking you a question today. Why should Christians not lie to one another? Why is it that we should tell the truth? I think there will be a number of very good answers and one of them would be that God himself is true and is the truth.

Jesus is known as the truth, John 14, 6. Thy Word is truth, John 17. The Spirit is truth, 1 John says. So the character of God is at stake when we do not tell the truth. Other reasons should be that the Bible condemns lying.

The Bible has much to say about falsehood and deception, none of which is good. It sets a bad example for our kids. Society will deteriorate if everything that is ever said by everybody is untrue. You can't have any basis for fellowship.

But it's interesting when the Apostle Paul in Ephesians tells Christians to tell the truth, speak truth one to another. In Ephesians 4, verse 25, he says,. Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor.

Now, here's his reasoning as to why. For we are members one of another. Isn't that interesting? His reason here, although the Bible speaks of other reasons why we should tell the truth, the reason that Paul wrote in Ephesians that he expressed here is because we're members one of another.

Does that seem a little strange to you? What's he seeing in membership that we don't? Because I don't think we'd have finished the sentence the same way he did. The reason we should not lie to one another is because we're members one of another.

I believe he saw in membership much that the modern day church does not see in membership. And that's what I want to talk about today. It's an exciting topic because Jesus is Lord and that has consequences for the life of the church.

All through the Bible, it's been this way. God has never mandated that we should, as people of God, go to the surrounding nations and cultures and ask them what they would want in a service of worship of the one true God.

I can't imagine Moses going around the tents of the Canaanites and saying, now, if we had a kind of worship service that was patterned according to your desires, what would that be and what sort of church service would you come to?

I think we're off at the wrong starting point completely when we organize church for the unbeliever. There's nowhere in the Bible that that is the mandate. In fact, the tabernacle was the meeting place of God with his people.

And God never said, now, I've got some preferences myself, but what would you like? What kind of colors would you like? What kind of worship? How long a service? When do you want to meet? What time of day?

No, everything was to be done according to his specific instructions. And believe it or not, God is exactly the same way in the New Testament as the Old, and he's described what worship is to look like.

He desires us to worship in spirit and in truth, and he determines what that looks like. He determines proper conduct in the household of God. And so if we take God's lordship, his sovereignty seriously, we should be looking through the Scriptures to see what God says.

Now, in summoning the church to come under the lordship of Christ, God certainly does want us to reach out to unbelievers, but the service itself is not for them. It's for God and his people. Through that means God can certainly and does save many people, but the service itself is geared for God.

He is to be center stage. He is to be lord. That was true, as I say, in the Old and New Testament alive. What I'm about to talk about in church membership, I've not always believed. Certainly, I believe that we are people of God together, but I've not believed in what I'm going to call formal church membership until relatively recently.

It's in the last months that I've actually introduced a manual to our church, King's Church, about covenant membership because I've seen it biblically. Once we see it biblically, I don't believe we're to argue with God, but to go by what he says.

Now, the problem is there's not one verse in our Bibles that speaks of church membership and describes it in the way we're going to talk about it today because it's putting together a number of verses.

It's the same concept in place as the Trinity. There's not just one verse you and I can go to and say, there you go, that verse by itself proves the Trinity. No, there are concepts in place. There are three basic things we can say about the Trinity born out of the Scriptures, and number one is there's one God.

Deuteronomy makes that clear. Other places makes it very, very clear, Isaiah and others. New Testament as well, there is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus, 1 Timothy 2.

So we can establish that. We can then show very clearly that three persons, three persons in Scripture are each called God, the Father, obviously, the Son. John 1, verse 1, Colossians 2, 9, he's the fullness of deity in bodily form.

On and on we can go regarding the deity of Christ. Same with the Holy Spirit. In Acts chapter 5, in lying to the Holy Spirit, Peter said to Ananias and Sapphira, you've not lied to men but to God. So on and on we can go.

Three divine persons are each called God in Scripture. And then the third concept is each of those three persons are not identified as the same person. The Father is not the Son. The Son is not the Spirit.

The Spirit is not the Father. The Father sends the Son into the world. The Son sends the Spirit into the world. We have the beautiful imagery going on in the baptism of Jesus, the Father speaking from heaven, the Son of God in the water, and the Holy Spirit in a form like a dove.

He wasn't a dove, but like a dove rested on him. Three members of the Godhead there. So although there's not one verse that outlines the Trinity, the concept is blatantly a biblical concept. And I've come to see that this is the case with church membership.

There's not one verse we can turn to, but over and over, if we look at the lines of evidence, they are screaming to us, now I see it, that church membership is a biblical concept. I remember when I was converted at the age of 14.

I went to a church service, and to cut a long story short, came to Christ, went through the rigmarole of raising my hand, walking an aisle, signing a card, and thought I was done. I would have signed up for the military at that point.

I was so impressed with Jesus, and I hadn't been just two hours previously. And on the way out, there was this gentleman at the door who looked at me, and he gave me these words, Well, see you next Sunday.

And I didn't say anything. I was kind of a shy guy right then. And I just shook my head and said, Well, thanks, and walked on. But see you next Sunday. Haven't I done enough? I've gone through a two-hour meeting, and I've done what you asked me to do, signed cards I wasn't intending on doing before I came to the service.

You want me back again? Come on. I have done my thing. And so many Christians think of a relationship with Jesus apart from the church. And it was only over time that I came to realize Jesus loves the church.

To love Jesus is to love the things he loves. And the relationship with Christ brings you straight away into a relationship with your brothers and sisters. And God has orchestrated and actually commanded us to meet together and do so all the more as you see the day approaching.

Oh, no, that was the writer to Hebrews. No, no, no. If it's Scripture, that's God the Holy Spirit through his apostles. And we don't actually know for sure who the writer of Hebrews was, but we know for sure it was Holy Spirit-inspired.

And if we accept that and we accept the other teachings of Scripture when Paul was writing, that's Jesus through Paul. When Peter was writing, that's Peter speaking, but Jesus through Peter, Jesus through Paul, Jesus, the Lord of the church, speaking to us.

And so over time I came to see that God loves the church. Jesus gave himself for the church. Many want to abandon the church in our day, but Jesus still loves the church. He gave himself for her in a way he did not for Sony and McDonald's and all these institutions, although many who work there, I'm sure, will be part of the church.

But Jesus gave himself specifically for this organization called the church, and he says, I will build it. I will build my church. He never said he'd build yours or mine, but he did say he'd build his.

And no gate of hell, no strategy of hell, nothing hell does can thwart the ongoing purposes of the church. So I'm assuming some things before we launch further into the Scriptures. Of you, the watcher, the listener, I'm assuming you love Jesus.

I'm assuming you take the Bible seriously. I'm assuming you love the gospel, and I'm assuming you want to see a local church in place where you can be known, where you can be loved and cared for and protected.

I'm assuming that. I'm assuming you take God's word at face value. I'm assuming you believe Scriptures like Proverbs 18 that says, he who isolates himself seeks his own desire. He breaks out against all sound judgment.

We're not called to be lone ranger Christians showing up at the scene and leaving silver bullets behind to say we were there somehow. We're called to be part of the body, the body, members of his body.

But in many churches, it's actually very easy, whether we're in a large church or even a small church, to be anonymous attenders. You can come late, leave early or right on time, just when you don't need to meet anybody or talk to anyone, find out what their needs are.

But you and I cannot do Christianity by ourselves. It's not a spectator sport where we just watch from the grandstands and observe others doing this thing. You and I can't do the one another's of Scripture by ourselves.

You can't love one another by yourself. You can't speak truth to one another by yourself. There's a relationship involved. So as followers of Christ, our lives, can we agree on this? Our lives should be built around the commands of Christ.

As Lord of the church, through his apostles, Christ summons his people to gather to worship him together each Lord's Day in the assembly of the saints. Do we agree so far? Am I going too fast? Some people would argue with that, but I think it's crystal clear, if you and I take the New Testament, as the Word of God, he's spoken and said, gather together.

He's established that. That being the case, is it not right that Sunday morning church is the first thing scheduled on our calendars each week? Not merely something that may happen if we can fit it in after scheduling all kinds of other activities.

I couldn't come to church this week because we had so much going on. I understood this even when I didn't understand church membership. God did want us to gather. And I, as a teenager and later in my 20s, even when it came to moving house, if the only day people were available was the weekend, though I didn't really want to do it on a Lord's Day, if that's the only time I could get some help, what I would do would be to start the process Saturday as much as I can, and then what would happen Sunday is we'd work for a few hours carrying boxes, and then at 10 o 'clock, knowing that there's an 11 o 'clock service, we'd stop, I'd run to the shower, take a quick shower, because you want to be clean, get to church, go through the service, honor the Lord in that way, and then 1 o 'clock in the afternoon after lunch, resume moving house.

You say, really? You'd do that? I think we should. I think Sunday church should be the first thing on our calendar. You're saying that because you're a pastor. No, I said this when I was traveling as an evangelist.

When you've only got one sermon, you have to travel. You understand? No, so I believe that this is God's intention, that we should gather together, and people say, but I don't always get much out of the service on a Sunday.

Sometimes it's hard to pay attention, and I understand, but part of our worship is getting a good night of sleep the night before to actually think about our attendance and think about how we can facilitate true worship of God coming, not just having two hours sleep.

I know some things are out of our control. We might have noisy neighbors having a party. We've had that recently. We could have issues going on, nights of stress and sleep, children having issues going to the hospital.

All kinds of issues can take place, but we get to church if we possibly can, unless what some call we're providentially hindered. Things happen outside of our control, but wouldn't that be great if we actually taught our kids this is important, taught ourselves this is important.

We have other things going on in our lives, but this is one thing we do as a family. So it's the duty and a delight of God's people to assemble, and even if we don't particularly think we're getting a lot out of it, it's pleasing to God that we do what he commands.

Plus, I find this, when we do it, we do get a lot more out of it than we realize. You go three, four weeks and not be in church. Your spiritual life is in decline. I don't care how much you think you've got a personal relationship with God.

God has not mandated that you get everything you need in your Christian life just by yourself, you and Jesus in the woods with a Bible, so to speak. You and I need one another, and in the assembly of the saints, God has commanded us to gather, and he says, I'll be present with you there.

The Israelites could have done their own thing and gone off into the woods individually, but God never mandated that. He says, I'll tabernacle with you. That is the meeting place, the place of meeting where I will meet with you.

I'll deal with you there, and God deals with us in the assembly of the saints. We come to worship him, to hear his word, to fellowship with his people, to partake of his supper. These are means of grace.

He wants to dispense grace to us and says, this is the means by which this takes place, the hearing of the word of God. I once went to a church service where it was a mega church. I went in there looking sheepish because I seemed to be the only one with a Bible.

Maybe they had the Bible on their phones, but that was kind of new to me. I walked in there. The service was packed to capacity. I found a place to sit, and eventually the preacher got up, and he didn't have a pulpit.

He had just a stool and sat on it, and he says, I'm not here to preach. I'm here to share with you today. He said something happened a few weeks ago, and as he was talking, some video came up on the huge giant mega screen behind him, and it looked like NBC had been working on this for a month.

It was just professional. It was well articulated. The sound was great. The waterfall scene was beautiful, and we were off to the races. This was a dramatic show, and after about 20 minutes in to his message where he was just relating, just sharing, he said, now Jesus said something about this, and my ears pricked up.

He did.

I can't remember him doing that, but interesting, and he looked then at his watch, and he says, now we haven't got time to read what he says, but let me just sum up what he said, and my heart just sank.

That's church. No, the most important thing people hear during the service is the reading of the Word of God, and that is actually mandated by God in Scripture. I don't really care what I think about Scripture.

I want to know what God has said, and I hope that the man who preaches the Word, again, I believe it should be a man, tells me what the Bible says and interprets for me what the words mean rather than he's got a theme to say, and maybe he'll find a verse on it somewhere.

Usually, it's a verse taken out of context from a translation no one's ever heard of to suit the preacher rather than God. I believe that each church service should be regulated for the audience of one.

If God himself is pleased, it doesn't matter who's displeased. If he's displeased, it doesn't matter who's pleased. That's what Paul wrote to Timothy. Preach the Word under the gaze of God, in the presence of God.

A loose translation would be under the eyeballs of God. It's God is watching you, Timothy. God is watching you. We know God doesn't have a physical body, but the concept in place is God is watching you, Timothy, in the presence of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Be a herald of his Word. Preach, proclaim his Word in season and out of season when there's good results and when it's hard, when they like it and when they don't like it. Reprove, rebuke. Do it with gentleness, but do it, Timothy.

Give yourself to the Word of God.

Preach it.

So God has got means of grace. Jesus, as Lord of the church, has means of grace that he has ordained to bless, feed, protect, nurture and beautify his bride. So I assume that you believe that. I assume that you want to find a place to call home where you can be spiritually led, fed, protected by leaders who genuinely love the Lord, who will watch over your soul because you actually matter to the Lord and to them.

Jesus' words in Matthew 18, verse 10 of these. See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven. What do you think?

If a man has a hundred sheep and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray? And if he finds it, truly, I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray.

So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. Christ, as the Good Shepherd, cares for each of his sheep, and he set up the church as a means of blessing his sheep.

It's his idea.

Church was not the dream of some pastor. It's Christ, the Good Shepherd, organizing the church. I heard people, I hear them many times say, I'm not into organized religion. Well, my response is, well, what do you want then?

Disorganized religion? Is that what you would prefer? The fact is God has organized by means of His Word or has regulated how His Church is to be organized, and we, as the people of God, need to heed what He says.

Many have had bad experiences. I don't doubt that. There is a sin nature in every one of us. We're prone to wander, and that's true of leaders as well as the rest of the precious sheep. But let's not cause our hearts to rebel against what God has said because we've had a bad experience.

Let's trust again the Chief Shepherd. I understand that's the case with fathers. There's not always been good fathers, but we don't say we're going to abandon fathers now because we've had a bad experience.

No, we should look beyond the earthly to the heavenly. Let's ask God to heal us of our wounds and then obey Him rather than resist Him. So the big question is, is church membership biblical? Again, as I say, don't believe you can turn to one verse, but you can turn to many, and here are some of the things I would say in this regard.

Let me take them in some sort of order. Number one, believers are instructed to be accountable to the leaders or elders of the church. It's a requirement of Christians to be submitted to a group of church leaders.

They're called elders or pastors, and the point here is that without membership, who is it that the New Testament is referring to who must submit to a specific group of leaders and who are those leaders?

We're required to do that. Hebrews tells us that very, very clearly. Let me read a few scriptures to you. 1 Thessalonians 5, 12 and 13. We ask you, brothers, to respect those who labor among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you and to esteem them very highly in love because of their work.

1 Timothy 5, 17. Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. Hebrews 13, 17. Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls as those who will have to give an account.

In just this last scripture, two things have to be assumed for that scripture to be applied. If we're going to say that's the Word of God to us, to apply it, we have to assume two things. Number one, the people know, they actually know which leaders they are to obey and submit to.

It's not suggesting they have to submit to every leader in every church, but they actually know which leaders they're to obey. And number two, the leaders know which people they are to give an account for, not merely anyone who shows up at a service, but they actually know who it is they are to watch over without a defined membership.

Do you see?

It's actually difficult, if not impossible, to see how we could fulfill the command of Christ.

Through the writer of Hebrews here.

Number two, the requirement that shepherds care for their flock. That last scripture, it's certainly ringing out there, but others we could turn to. If I'm to say in the book of Acts chapter 20, verse 28, Paul tells the elders how to care for the flock, their flock.

Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood. The verse does not say elders cannot visit unbelievers or those who are not yet members, but it does make clear their first responsibility is to a particular flock.

How are they to know who their flock is? You ever asked that question? Who are we as elders, pastors, responsible for? For whom will we give an account to God? If we go to 1 Peter, we see an even clearer revelation of this same truth.

Shepherd, verse 2 and 3 of 1 Peter 5, shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising over you not under compulsion, but willingly as God would have you, not for shameful gain, but eagerly, not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock.

Notice the phrase, those in your charge. There the words mean your portion, your lot, those you've been assigned to. It implies very strongly that the elders knew, K-N-E-W, they knew those for whom they were responsible.

It's just another way of talking about membership. If a person doesn't want to be held accountable by a group of elders or the special focus of their care, they'll resist the idea of membership. They'll resist God's appointed way for them to live and be sustained in their faith.

Let me back up just for a moment and read something from a book that was originally entitled Stop Dating the Church by Joshua Harris. It's been republished as a title now called Why Church Matters. As we pick up the book, he starts in chapter one by saying this, Jack and Grace met through a mutual friend.

From day one, they seemed to be the perfect match. Grace was everything Jack had always wanted. She was beautiful, outgoing, caring, always there when Jack needed her. For the first five months, they were inseparable.

Jack could hardly think of anything but Grace. He didn't need to look further. He told friends she's the one. Now almost three years have passed. Jill still enjoys the comfort and familiarity of being with Grace, but the spark is gone.

Grace's flaws seem more obvious. He's not sure he finds her as attractive as he once did, and he's beginning to resent all the time she wants to spend with him. One night when she asks if they can define the nature of their relationship, Jack blows up.

We're together, aren't we? He asks angrily. Why isn't that good enough for you? Obviously Jack isn't ready for commitment, and it's unclear if he ever will be. Have you ever been in a relationship like this?

I'm writing this book because I believe God has something better for you. He wants you in a relationship defined by both passion and commitment. But before you take hold of this wonderful plan, you need to know something about this couple.

There are millions of Jacks walking around today, and Grace isn't a girl. Grace is a church. Moving on to another portion of the book, he outlines a story about Robert, who lives in Gilbert, Arizona. He likes friends to call him Fat Bob.

He loves life and people and enjoys laughing at himself. He's got a good job and faithfully attends his church, but if you really want to see Robert excited, ask him about his Jeep. He talks about it like it's a person.

She's my baby, he says affectionately. He searched for over two years to find just the right yellow and black Wrangler. It was spotless, just gorgeous, he recounts. Once I got the Jeep, well, of course, I had to join the Jeep Club, explains Robert, the local club with over 1 ,500 active members.

It offers meetings, parties, trail runs, and a website where members could exchange Jeep tips. It's a whole Jeep community, Robert says. Through the club, Robert hooked up with guys who taught him the final points of four-wheeling.

As his Jeep discipleship intensified, Robert's commitment only deepened. I was totally hooked, he said. Every free moment was consumed. I was either working on a Jeep, planning a Jeep run, hanging out and talking Jeep, or going online to check our Jeep website.

Mr. Harris, the writer, continues, I met Robert at a Christian conference. He came with a group from his church to hear me speak. On the final night, I gave a message about the importance of the local church.

I started by asking, are you married to the church or are you dating the church? The question unsettled Robert. God started speaking, he remembered. He was asking me, Robert, what are you married to? And the only thing I could think of was the Jeep club.

It was obvious I'd never seen it before. I was married to the Jeep club and I was dating the church. In my message, I quoted John Stott who said, if the church is central to God's purpose, as seen in both history and the gospel, it must surely also be central to our lives.

How can we take lightly what God takes so seriously? How dare we push to the circumference what God has placed at the center? As his mind played back over the last two years, Robert realized that he had pushed the church to the outskirts of his life.

He had invested so much in the Jeep club but very little in his local church. If a Jeep run was scheduled on a Sunday afternoon, he'd be watching the clock throughout the church service, ready to rush out as soon as the sermon was done.

And then there was the Saturday. He was asked to help clean up the church property for a special conference that was being held at the building. I totally blew it off, he recalls. I didn't even give it a second thought.

I had promised the guys in the Jeep club that I'd help them pick up trash on a trail to prepare for a run. The reality is I had no passion for the church or the people in it, Robert told me. I'd do anything for the guys in the club, but I really struggled if I was asked to give time on the weekend to serve my church.

So the question is, what's your club? We move on as we talk about not dating the church but being married to the church. There's a third concept in place that speaks of church membership, and that is the subject of church discipline.

If you remember, the Protestant reformers described three marks of the true church. One would be a right preaching of the Word, and it would be included the right preaching of the gospel, law and gospel, the law that shows us God's commands, the fact we cannot keep those commands and have failed to achieve righteousness in the sight of God, and the gospel is what God has done for us in the person and work of Jesus Christ.

That has to be part of a true church. The second mark is the right administration of the sacraments, namely water baptism and the Lord's Supper. And a third element came kind of later after the first two but certainly was part of the teaching of the reformers was church discipline.

If there's no church discipline in place, there's no protection for the people of God. Matthew 18, verse 15 are words from Jesus regarding the church. He spoke very little about the church. He said, I'd build it.

I will build my church. But in Matthew 18, he mentions the church again, and that's about it. It's implied in these verses where the word church, ekklesia in Greek, appears to be the final court of appeal in matters of church authority as it relates to membership.

And again, let's read the Scripture. Matthew 18, 15, If your brother sins against you, go on Facebook and tell everybody about it. No, no, it doesn't actually say that. Go and tell him his fault between you and him alone.

If he listens to you, you've gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church.

And if he refuses to listen even to the church, that's the third time and the final time Jesus mentions the word church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. That means don't have anything to do with him.

Put him outside in terms of where your relationships are. Don't interchange with him in the same way you would people inside. If there's no church membership, how can you and I define the group that take up these words seriously?

It's hard to believe that just anyone who showed up claiming to be a Christian could be part of this gathering that Jesus is talking about. Tell it to the church. Surely the church must be a definable group to handle such a weighty matter.

We must know who we mean when we tell it to the church, right? How can you do that? Is it just anyone who showed up? Can we do that at the Easter service where folk are showing up at church? Or is there a recognizable body of people called the church?

It has to be the latter. Apart from certain criteria or qualifications that enable you to know who is the church and who isn't, there's simply no way for us to obey this command of Christ. When we have issues with people, we're to do what Matthew 18 tells us to do.

1 Corinthians 5, 12 and 13. Look here and we'll see again. The necessity of putting someone out of the church. We read the scripture. What have I to do with judging outsiders, Paul writes. Is it not those inside the church?

Hear that phrase. Inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. Purge the evil person from among you. Now, without going into the background and the details here, I'm just showing from the scripture the one point here.

I'm not looking at the entire passage. We could, but just for the sake of time, we're looking at this verse because it tells us there is a difference between those inside the church and those outside the church.

And there are times when those inside the church must put certain people outside the church.

Right?

Or else the text means nothing. It's clear from Paul's language. There's an in the church group and an outside the church group. It's a definable entity. There are recognizable boundaries that I'm drawing this distinction.

Second, it's also clear that a person can be removed from being in the church. It would need to be a formal removal and that would not be possible if there were not such a thing as clear and formal membership.

In other words, Paul's words would be impossible to obey unless there was a way of determining who's in and who's out. An accountable, local body. A distinguished and distinguishable group. It's formal membership.

Let me lighten our load a little bit because this is heavy stuff. Michael McKinley provides a very helpful, I think, humorous illustration and oftentimes Jesus used humor and illustrated his point very clearly.

That's why the common people heard him gladly. Otherwise it can be the bland leading the bland. Humor, though it needs to be regulated and watched over, can be a useful thing. He writes this, I cannot be removed from the Northern California Left-Handed Golfers Association because I have never been a member of such an organization.

Now, according to their website, the NCLHGA will remove people from membership for several reasons like right-handedness, perhaps. But I'm in no danger of being subject to such an action because you can't kick a person out who has never been a member to begin with.

He makes a great point. Thirdly, the Church's discipline is to occur according to 1 Corinthians 5 -4 when you are assembled. When you are assembled. For our purposes let's just simply note that there's a definite and formal assembly of the Church and they knew who to expect when it gathered.