Mass Cross Examination

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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Origin, are you familiar with Origin? Yes. Do you know Origin's dates? Beginning of the 3rd century toward the middle of the 3rd century.

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Wrong. Excuse me? Wrong. 185 to 254.

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Excuse me, 254 is the middle of the 3rd century. You said from the 3rd century was your beginning.

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Something tells me it wasn't writing when he was 10. No, the 2nd century is 185, not the 3rd century.

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This is what Origin said. I wish to admonish you with examples from your religion.

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You are accustomed to take part in the divine mysteries. So you know how, when you have received the body of the

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Lord, you reverently exercise every care lest a particle of it fall and lest anything of the consecrated gift perish.

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You account yourselves guilty, and rightly do you so believe, if any of it be lost through negligence.

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Then, Augustine says this. You said that Augustine did not say that we adore and worship the

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Eucharist. I'll read you a quote from Augustine, and you tell me what you did say. I did not say that, sir. Tell me what you did say.

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I'm not sure what you're referring to. What I said was that all scholars with whom I am familiar with will specifically make the statement as, for example,

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Schaff does right here. In the previous period, we distinguished three views. The mystic view of Ignatius, Justin Martyr, and Irenaeus.

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The symbolical view of Tertullian and Cyprian. And the allegorical or spiritualistic view of Clement of Alexandria and Origin.

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And he goes on to add Augustine to that view in regards to his specific understanding of the means by which the real presence takes place.

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Okay. You had made the case that because they started worshiping the host around the second millennium, the beginning of the second millennium, and you asked the question, why are none of the fathers doing the same thing that these people were?

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Well, whatever. Can I correct the statement? I made the statement in my opening statement. In fact, I specifically cited

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Theodoret, where he speaks of adoring the elements, and then I demonstrated that he spoke of that in a figurative way.

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What I said was, why do we not see Augustine putting consecrated hosts into a pyx or a suborium or whatever, and carrying it in procession through the streets where people bow down to worship it?

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That is what began to happen at that point in time. All right. If what you're doing is trying to say that there's a difference between Augustine adoring the

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Eucharist and then carrying a suborium through the streets, if that's the case you're trying to make, you're correct. Okay?

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But the point, in fact, is that Augustine adored the Eucharist just like those of the second millennium did, even though we don't have a statement saying that he carried it through the streets.

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That's not the issue. The issue is, did Augustine adore the Eucharist? And this is what he says on the

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Psalms, and tell me what you think about this. For he received earth from earth because flesh is from the earth.

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He took flesh from the flesh of Mary. He walked here in the same flesh and gave us the same flesh to be eaten unto salvation.

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But no one eats that flesh unless first he adores it. And thus it is discovered how such a footstool of the

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Lord's feet is adored. And not only do we not sin by adoring it, we do sin by not adoring it.

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Is that a question I can answer? Yeah, tell me what you think of that. Thanks. Well, I think when you read Augustine you understand why it is that Schaff, Pelican, Cunningham, J.

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Andy Kelly, and everyone else understands why he did not hold to a materialistic view.

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Let me give you just one quote. This is a tractate 50 from the Gospel of John.

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Let us for our parts show the Jews where Christ is. Well, if he believed in transubstantiation in a physical sense, we can answer that question easy.

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He's on the altar. Would indeed that all the seed of those who have been given commandment to have it shown them where Christ was would but hear and apprehend.

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Let them come to the church and hear where Christ is and take him. They may hear it from us. They may hear it from the gospel.

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He was slain by their forefathers. He was buried. He rose again. He was recognized by the disciples.

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He ascended before their eyes into heaven and there sitteth at the right hand of the father. And he who was judged is yet to come as judge of all.

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Let them hear and hold fast. Do they reply? How shall I take hold of the absent? How shall

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I stretch up my hand into heaven and take hold of one who is sitting there? Now, how should, if Augustine believed what you're asserting, he say?

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By partaking of the supper. What does he say? Stretch up thy faith and thou hast got hold.

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Thy forefather is held by the flesh. Hold thou with the heart for the absent

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Christ is also present. But for his presence we ourselves were unable to hold him.

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But since his word is true, lo, I am with you always, even at the end of the world. He is away and he is here.

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He is returned and will not forsake us. For he has carried his body into heaven, but his majesty he has never withdrawn from the world.