Aug. 19, 2015 Show with Dr. Barry Horner & Dr. James M. Hamilton on “Historic Premillennialism” [End Times 6-Day Marathon]

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in

Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on

which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church

and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arnson.

Well good afternoon, Cumberland Valley, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on

the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on

this 19th day of August 2015 and today is day number

three of End Times Marathon here on Iron Sharpens Iron.

We already addressed on Monday amillennialism, on Tuesday we addressed pre

-tribulational premillennialism or distensationalism, and today we are going to be addressing

historic premillennialism and we have two different guests to do that today.

Our first guest is going to be Barry Horner.

He is the author of Future Israel, Why Christian Anti -Judaism Must Be Challenged

and he is also the host of a website on that very issue which

we will have him describe in a moment and we are also for the second hour starting

at 5 p .m. Eastern going to have as our guest James Hamilton who is

professor of biblical theology at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky.

And there is a possibility that our two guests, although they are addressing, they're both addressing and defending

historic premillennialism, they may take a slightly different spin on the topic as

with most of our eschatological views being presented there typically is not just one view.

There are varieties of views that usually fall under the heading of each and I'm

trying to do the best job as I can in six days from today through the 24th

to get a variety of views and so on and of course you have the ability as a listener

to email your own questions and so if you disagree with how any of our guests are representing

any of their respective views you can feel free to email a

question at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

But first of all let me welcome our first guest today my dear friend Dr. Barry Horner

and it's been a long time brother I'm so glad that you're on the program again.

I look forward to today.

Yes in fact regardless of your eschatological view or regardless of whether

you're a Calvinist or Arminian or what kind of a Calvinist you may be

I heartily and strongly urge you to invite Dr. Horner to your church to give his

presentation on the Pilgrim's Progress.

He is a thoroughly knowledgeable expert on the life of John Bunyan and on his

masterpiece the Pilgrim's Progress.

I've seen his presentation probably close to five times at least and I actually

organized most of those events that feature Dr. Horner discussing the Pilgrim's

Progress.

So I strongly urge you to look up Dr. Horner at

futureisraelministries .org and you also have a separate website don't you for the John Bunyan ministries?

Yes it's again.

Www .bunyanministries .org.

Bunyanministries .org.

And that has nothing to do with a foot disorder.

This is regarding the great man of God John Bunyan

author of the classic allegory the Pilgrim's Progress.

Well once again our email address if you have any questions on historic

premillennialism email them today at chrisarnsen at gmail .com at

chrisarnsen at gmail .com and please if you

ask of you to please at least give your first name.

The city and state where you reside in the country where you reside.

If you live outside of the United States and you're originally from Australia as is evident from your accent brother correct?

Yes that's right.

I'm from Melbourne.

Yes and now you are living in Arizona are you.

Still pastoring?

No I'm sort of semi -retired really.

Okay well it's an.

Honor and privilege to have you on the program again that Dr. Horner was featured as a guest

several times on the old Iron Trepans Iron between 2006 and 2011 and it's my

joy to have him back.

Now your eschatological view is known as historic premillennialism.

Obviously premillennial refers to something that is going to happen before an event called the Millennium.

So what is the Millennium.

And what exactly do you believe will occur prior to this event?

Major pass.

I know one

reforms

involves

a whole you

could

give

another name.

I sometimes used

to it in this time element

although so essentially it's

saying there's a glory which again Christ will reign from

Jerusalem personally gloriously Israel will have

been regenerate Gentile nations surrounding and

as Zechariah says in

chapter 40 the earth you know Jesus.

Why.

Is the word historic included in the term describing your eschatology.

Historic premillennialism?

Yes yes yes I understand.

I think the reason would be to distinguish

it

from a

and that of course then involves anticipation of then

they would not see

it that way.

The actual

premillennial view can go back even to the church

father Irenaeus but there was real revival of studying millennialism in about the 17th

century.

The army

all century that was from

Valdini

thought

was well known for the

plain exegesis

of Revelation 20 but when you enter the Old

Testament he said all the prophetic passages there and all the eschatological passages there had

to be reinterpreted and filled it through the Gospel of the New Testament so he didn't tie the Old Testament

at all really in the Revelation 20.

For that reason alone I believe he is not typical.

There's a number of probably a little more recent ones but I've quoted them in my book.

Go back to where you've got Charles Simeon

Cambridge and

yet he

doesn't

get into the rough.

His message he

makes it very.

Another one I'd add

to.

He draws on

Wesley's hymns and the number of hymns you've got there this whole collection involving Wesley's perspective and

anticipation of a millennium.

Another one.

There are other enough anyway.

These are the historical hymns you

see are definite

in Ezekiel

37 etc.

Of course the current nation of Israel didn't exist when Spurgeon

was alive in the 19th century or J .C. Ryle.

Would they view the current nation of Israel formerly known as Palestine in the

Middle East would they view today's.

Israel as a fulfillment of biblical prophecy with the promises

of the land were desperately

intended.

For is he is not

being dogmatic on this but he very much clears

happened in

1948 1967 and I'm confident they undoubtedly say surely God is

sovereignly in this.

He makes it very clear that the 67 war and

with he makes it very

clear here before he passed away.

Well I think that's it.

Yeah well I think any fact I don't think.

I know.

All Calvinists regardless of what eschatological view they have even if they're all millennial they have to

believe if they're Calvinist that God is in control over all things.

And that would include the modern -day gathering and settlement in Israel but the difference would be

do you view it specifically the modern -day nation of.

Fulfillment of biblical prophecy.

I believe the return of the Jews.

I believe that personally.

I mean the land they got that's the borders that were promised and no one would

have to be back there against tremendous

opposition

enemies for you.

As regarding their election of the love for

the says clearly that even unbelieving

Jews are God's beloved enemies.

So if you could.

Just recap of as briefly as possible how George Ladd who is known

by some as the one who really holds to the genuine form of historic pre -millennialism but that is

obviously a debatable issue.

How is he different from the Horatius Bonar.

J .C. Ryle and even the church fathers that you mentioned and I'm

getting at that when you.

Very much a literal what a split really seven on as a company so very clear.

He accepts a literal interpretation there.

The regeneration of Israel and so forth.

Ryle.

And.

But they're exactly the same.

Just read the way.

There's no question about it.

I believe that their

fulfillment now when

you come to lack

lack to me is a big

issue.

Interpretation

through the

gospel of Jesus Christ.

And so you really come up.

Then you'll come up with a sort of an Augustinian understanding of the Old Testament Messianic

prophecies there.

And that to me is where I mean these others I've mentioned to you.

They categorically would disagree with that because they see well as I too.

And Zechariah they say these are basically having a future Messianic

interpretation subsequent to.

The right return of Christ and please forgive me if I get repetitive sometimes but

I'm just trying to be as systematic in this as possible because it is sometimes confusing to talk

about in times.

But do you believe in only one return of Christ is a millennialists and post

-millennialists do or in two returns of Christ one secret and invisible to those on

earth who are lost and and one.

That will be visible to all as pre -tribulation was believe

that you're asking me basically my view of the rapture.

I'll be honest with you and tell you where I am.

Obviously there's a rapture it speaks about.

There's no question about the being a rapture.

The key question is when does it happen.

Well pre -trib view tends to give the idea.

Well we're going to be wrapped real bad.

You're going to be

raptured with a pre -wrath view.

What we're saying is at the end of the age there are going to be.

I use the word they're going to be covenant judgments now.

These are direct interventions of God for instance when God judged at

the time of

Noah

intervention.

So I call it one of a better term a covenant judge.

This is where God comes in.

You know you get it where you get men saying let

us hide ourselves from the wrath of the Lamb.

That wrath of the Lamb there is a direct intervention of the Son of God at the end of the age.

So and you've got other passages.

I think in the second it says that

God delivered a Noah.

And he

said

and that God delivered remind me of

what in his life.

Yeah just I had just had a little blank there.

And of course when God judged he got he took a lot in his family out.

When God judged the era of Noah

he God will judge.

It says that God knows how to deliver the righteous.

So my belief is that when we get to the end when you get God directly into the area into

living with judgment God will.

The words what it's saying is that just priming on mankind.

Then God will take you.

Because you.

You can't have God's children suffering double jeopardy.

You know.

You can't have people say by the Lamb seeing the judgment of the road.

And so you're saying that the

the visible.

Return of Christ is when he returns to set up the Millennial Kingdom and it's not a

secret thing that happens before the tribulation.

Is that what you're.

Saying I'm all

I'm saying

is God cannot judge them.

And then of course and Christ

will do that judgment day.

It's a vision that is not commonly seen today but it's being

of the

wrath of

the Lamb you

know men

mediator of that.

Matthew 1928 we're told there at the rich this is our Savior speaking to his own

disciples.

He says after a generation poem Guinness here is the word.

It means the rebirth the earth.

It's speaking of the radical transformation of the earth after a generation when the Son of

Man sits on his glorious throne and then he says you you will be you my disciples you my

apostles you will be sitting on 12 tribes judging the 12 tribes of Israel.

That's a good statement of what's ahead there.

It's obviously Christ returns and is a regenerated earth.

He sets at his kingdom he reigns from Jerusalem he has to

him and then the Gentile.

Okay.

And if you could go into more detail of what the tribulation will be like

okay there is that yeah this again is what

is God's intervention.

It's like Jacob's

trouble any

ID.

I'm not into

that but

I'm very much like Jacob's trouble again.

This is God's execution.

Because well not simply there may be an element of that but what I'm saying

the church now even could suffer much greater persecution even in the United States.

You know that's persecution.

But that has been going on

since Pentecost

so what.

So it's interesting that you somewhat favor a.

Pre -wrath rapture view which is our topic tomorrow we have two other ways.

Tomorrow we have Alan Kirshner.

Oh yeah I know him.

Well yes he'll smile.

And then.

Then at 5 p .m. after Alan we have pastor Vincent Sawyer who is a dear friend of mine

who was a pre -tribulational dispensationalist and became a believer in the pre -wrath

rapture probably about seven years ago or so.

I don't know I don't know exactly when but when I first met Vinnie and knew him for probably a decade or more

he was still pre -trib so it wasn't that it wasn't that long ago.

But give my regards to brother Krishna.

Yeah I will I might add.

I'm speaking at a conference he's arranged in California in Glendora California Hill

so who or.

What in your scenario of eschatology is the beast the false prophet and the.

Antichrist oh dear dear I

don't feel at the moment I want to get into that in

detail.

It's terrible.

There

are

many.

Antichrist you've

got

there that you've got

war taking place so you do you

believe that these are three separate.

Entities that the beast the false prophet and the Antichrist.

Oh yes I tend to believe that.

Yes.

Okay.

And who would.

Who or what.

Is the whore of Babylon.

Well.

It is and because

you've got the

Vatican

the

Vatican is.

What goes on there.

No

one

knows.

I have a Catholic here

loving democracy and yet the Catholic Church doesn't believe in democracy.

It believes in the reign of the Pope.

One of the earlier titles of the Pope was the king of the kings of

the earth a major role.

Tell us how you really feel

some of his beliefs.

I mean he comes from South America.

He's into what we call baptized socialism.

That's what he's into.

Really.

And I could go on more about that.

But that man I mean and I mean that's enough.

But I have no time for the Pope right.

And so if you could also I know that you've already gone into the Millennium but if you could describe

the thousand year reign of Christ in the binding of Satan where we get the concept of Millennium in

Revelation 20 how does how does your view of the Millennium differ.

From a pre tribulation list dispensationalist.

I don't know one thing.

To me

the biggest argument is

19 and 20.

Now the you get the end of

chapter 19 which clearly is

speaking

question is I'm Warren

and God's check.

Do you read on to chapter 20 in continuity or do you

recapitulate.

Take Greg

be a picture

lights.

And when you get to chapter 20 you then have to Pentecost.

In the beginning of a church age there are many out

it.

Then you get into chapter 20.

There it speaks of those

who continuity there

takes us into Messianic age

again is

what

here shall be King over

all of the

knowledge

of the Lord.

And

there's

so many passes

these other

matters like

because he mentions you know

when we get

to that.

We're gonna be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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that God willing fixed prior to the conclusion of our broadcast.

Today we are discussing historic premillennialism.

This is this is day three of our six -day end times marathon where

every day we are featuring a different a different view of the

last days of the different eschatological view.

We've already addressed amillennialism and pre -trib pre -millennialism.

Today we are discussing historic premillennialism and our first guest has been for the last half -hour dr.

Barry Horner of future Israel ministries and bunion ministries and are

following dr. Horner.

At the top of the hour we are going to have a guest from the Southern Baptist

Theological Seminary James Hamilton who will be discussing the same issue and

may take even a different perspective on historic premillennialism because there are varying

views as we've already heard from dr. Horner historically

the differences between George Ladd and Horatius Bonar and Charles Spurgeon

and J .C. Ryle and so on and who would be more in line with the church fathers on that and so on.

So there are there are varying opinions and who differences of opinion who rightly wears

the name historic premill.

So if you have any questions you can email them to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And going back to the differences that we

have between premillennialism and historic

premillennialism and dispensational pre -trib premill views going

to what the millennium will be like.

In your view are glorified saints who were once enjoying indescribable bliss in paradise

with Christ going to once again be experiencing sorrow grief and anguish

during the millennium as they did before death.

Since they will return to a world surrounding them with mortal sinful men and will be

witnesses to sin and death even if it's to a lesser degree than before Christ's physical reign.

Well first of all I would come back and say do you think the Saints

still have emotions.

You end up sometimes when

you consider this and

well we're just going to be on clouds waltzing

around in an amorphous sort of similarity we'll all be

the same.

I mean that to me I can't accept at all one good illustration would be

the transfiguration when our saviors there I mean it

seems to me probably Peter

recognize and learn quickly.

This was Moses this was Elijah.

They were distinctive.

They had a distinctive character about them that I believe in the millennium.

Moses or David's going to be there.

Paul's going to be there and they suddenly lost all their identity just again this sort of

homogenous group without any distinctive biblical identity.

I can't accept that for a moment.

So we're going to have them there distinctively.

And we're going to have of course that

nevertheless we'll have that

there'll be business.

We won't be doing nothing there.

This is what is sometimes conveyed in especially in the millennial view.

We're just things that sort of you know doing nothing except praising.

And that's I mean it's not right.

I don't think it's.

And some mind you I gotta say this some are millennialists have seen the weakness of this and they have

admitted that it's far more the fact that we shall be there distinctively.

I I will have what will I call it a spiritual materiality.

I'll I'll have a body but it'll be a glorious spiritual body like under Christ's body.

But I don't have a distinctive spiritual materiality there and I will be doing

things.

And some will have high positions and lower positions.

David will be there and so forth.

And so now the emotions what the emotions are.

I think there'll be emotions.

But we've got to be careful there again.

I refer you to read Bonar because he handles this so well it's not easy.

You can go in either direction.

You go in the direction.

Well there's no.

You end up with an emotionless sort of existence and we're all just you know

the same and there's no distinction at all.

And that's just not right.

Now if you get distinction that you get a distinction one with another doing different things interacting with one another.

And surely that will involve emotions and so forth.

I don't doubt you know again the releasing of Antichrist.

I'm not sure what's going to be like but God has a good purpose.

I am convinced.

And in 20 and that's

way ahead of us now yeah I.

Got confused there for a little bit because our millennialists and post -millennialists don't believe

that the departed Saints that live before us who are in glory in our own paradise will be

a part of the millennium with the living human beings here on earth.

So I'm not really sure what you meant by reference to our millennialists they don't believe that

in the millennium I.

Meant I'm in the I haven't I haven't won one the historic abalone ism which comes through the Catholic

Church and that you know over the centuries that's still our millennialism.

But the idea is for the Catholic you sort of up there this wispy heavenly

and that's it where there's nothing specific at all which the prophets

speak about you know.

So that's what I had in mind.

Are you speaking about in heaven as a matter of fact.

As a matter of fact I'm not a fan of empty right.

Believe me I really I have real problems with empty right however and I

agree with him thoroughly.

He was making the point that when we die we go to Abraham's bosom we go to an existence.

But that existence does not really is not the same as what shall then come when the kingdom is

finally fulfilled.

And I agree with him on that you know.

So because we since since I mean we die we go to be with Christ which is far better then we

have this messianic kingdom or millennial which then we will be participants

in.

But when we die we don't get into participation with that this moment.

So empty right was correct in saying that when we die we go into Abraham's bosom this set up position

of where we're blissfully with Christ in some way.

Then we'll when things are wrapped up then we'll come the kingdom in a fully manifest sense.

Yeah I agree with that but what I'm what I'm saying is that the millennialists and post -millennialists believe that

we will not on earth.

We will not be reunited with the Saints that departed before us until the final things when we are in

glory with them.

Not not during an earthly millennium we won't be together with them.

That's what I meant.

Well I I I I'm not sure.

I get a bit confused with some of their views.

That way.

All I'm I got to be with Christ.

Right.

And then I will probably see loved ones who are also with Christ.

I'll see people I've known who will be with Christ.

Introduction of that.

That matter of fact I've

got to mention this.

I was talking with a post

-millennialist just the other day.

He's more historic.

I said to him.

I said tell me I said have you read Lorraine Bednar's book for millennium.

Oh yeah.

He read that book I said.

Tell me I said.

In there Lorraine Bednar as a classic post mill he has a chapter called the world is

getting better.

I said tell me.

Do you believe that we can't

look at world events.

We just they're gonna look getting better.

The world's good right.

Well the the.

Post -millennialists that I've heard say that it's not necessarily a straight line that goes upward

and gets better and better and better that we could receive a century or centuries of

horrible conditions here on earth before.

We go on the rise to the millennium.

Tell me let me hear that again once once we.

Get an outbreak of nuclear war.

No right.

Well that's that's what I meant.

I don't think that post -millennium was denied that that could happen on earth.

Yeah but.

They're really dodging the issue.

I mean it's just fanciful what they're saying that what we're going to have a nuclear holocaust then the world's going to get

better.

That that simplifies

17th century in

America.

And things were good.

The Reformation with all the weaknesses.

The Reformation had brought revolution to Europe.

I mean things were going well in a broad sense you know.

So therefore we're heading toward you know this this Christianized earth and and I can understand them

thinking that way but it hasn't turned out that way.

I know that.

You have as a very top priority an opposition to

anti -semitism.

And one thing that some are millennial and post -millennial folks are confused about is

that the common view

that the two -thirds

of the Jews will be wiped out off the face of the earth in

Israel during the Great Tribulation.

And yet you have pre -millennialists joyfully and enthusiastically and excitedly.

Witnessing Jews return there.

So it seems that's a caricature.

I have to be honest with you that's a pure caricature and I

could believe that I do believe have yet

to stop.

I can say that I don't

say that with any joy you know I don't say that at all.

That I believe is a head.

There's worse things to come and but yet I believe very much

that the hope of any Jew today is the gospel.

That's what the Jew needs to hear is the gospel.

And our Savior said to the Jewish people he said except you believe that I am he you will die in your

sins twice on that.

Occasion.

Yeah no.

I wasn't trying to insinuate that you were experiencing joy over the mass slaughter that will take

place in your eschatological view of the Jews.

I meant that the Jews are returning to Israel that you're rejoicing over and.

It seems yes.

I rejoice when I see scripture being fulfilled.

I don't see that return of some isolation.

I see that as something which scriptures

throughout the new

land and so forth.

I rejoice in of the Abrahamic Covenant.

I rejoice in the Jews even their unbelief going back to the land that was promised.

To them a common objection to pre -millennialism is found in Ezekiel's temple vision in

Ezekiel 40 through 48 and I'm only lists and post -millennialists argue that if this is a literal

future temple that will require a return of the sacrificial system that Christ made obsolete

since the Prophet speaks of atonement in Ezekiel 43 13 27 45

15 17 20.

Critics believe this to be a blasphemous contradiction to the finished work of Christ is

probably 50.

Times I've heard that

anyone who is in the camp where I'm at just that that to me is just a

somewhat a perversion.

But what really is involved here.

We have to face what the scripture means by what it says.

We have to go exegetically to Ezekiel there.

And 40 to 48 the attempt we've got to get what a scripture.

So now what does the army older.

What they do.

They go there and then make these broad conclusions about this long section which is very specific

and very detailed.

And I make these broad sort of conclusions.

Well it's just being about resurrection and the triumph of a church or something like that.

You know anyone who read that passage is like it's got to mean more than that.

Why all that detail.

That's anyway now what we do is we go exegetically to it and we come

to passage that speak of some sacrifice.

It would say you know I've got the final answer there.

But what I'm saying is something like that is going to happen.

It will be.

I believe I actually in the Messianic Kingdom this this kingdom of spiritual

materiality it will be a specific edifice and that I

can't avoid.

Especially in terms of the contrast.

If you come on from 36 37 you got a 39 when you come through that route when you come up to

the temple there you know and try and find that takes us back to the church age that to me just doesn't fit.

At all by the way I think I am on the borderline of becoming charismatic.

Very because because yesterday a woman emailed me who

did not know that I was interviewing you today and she emailed me and she said how can I get

a hold of dr. Barry Horner's book on future Israel.

And I couldn't believe that she said.

That yes.

I'm sorry she's probably not used to the Internet.

She doesn't she.

Doesn't know anything about Amazon or anything like that.

I guess not but I'm just thought it was uncanny that that was just yesterday that

so I was able to share with her that you were going to be on my program today.

Now what is dispensationalism and how do you differ

from it.

Well that you know.

I would need an hour.

Really find this again.

I want to say this that so much misleading comment

on what is dispensationalism someone frustrates me.

I'll illustrate this John MacArthur is dispensationalist

and his friends Mike Black who was a professor who I had on the show.

I had on the show.

Yesterday.

Yeah right Mike is dispensationalist but you cannot just

associate them with the dispensationalism that came around the time of Darby

and so forth.

You know you can't do that.

Now let me also say this for those reformed people who say oh they've changed reformed truth has

changed the idea that somehow reformed truth coming from

Augustine through to Luther and Calvin.

And now today it's the same.

I don't accept that at all.

One one good illustration of this would be the introduction of covenant theology.

You know and covenant theology is a subsequent develop within the reform

movement comes out of probably out of Europe and Dutch emphasis and so forth.

But that's a modification that's a variation on the theme of basically

reformed Calvinistic emphasis there.

Now as you say look at MacArthur and I may not agree with him in everything but but the idea that

they I know some reformed people they throw that word dispensation around a bit they try to slay you

with it.

It's a nasty word.

It's a bad word.

I won't have that at all.

I will challenge anyone who is reformed Lewis Barry

Chaffer's book he who is spiritual and read it and tell me what they think about it.

Because that book you know of course Chaffer is the founder of Dallas Seminary and very very significant in the

development of dispensationalism.

But on the other hand what a man of God he was his book he that is spiritual let's read it

and see the spirituality of this man.

You know and and and I hope some reformed people will just use this word in a cutting

sense you know it's the bottom of the pole.

It's a you know and I won't have that.

And well actually I hope you don't think I was doing those.

It's because I have a

reformed sovereign grace background to you know I've faced it you know it's it's a nasty it's a it's not a good

word and whatever.

You get.

Okay I'll say what about reform Baptist.

Go to the form Baptist and just mention the word dispensationalism and see how they react.

Well Charles Hodge really read Charles

Hodges systematic theology the beginning there I forget what section is X he has for he mentions he believes

there are four dispensations.

I mean so.

In other words you you are not necessarily offended.

Then if somebody somehow associates you with dispensationalism is that what you're.

Saying only if they're honest in their assessment of me and put me you know I would I

suppose I might be associated

with a moderate

dispensationalist.

City and the Gentiles.

And that will be evident clear one people have gone on the Millennium

and yet there will be

the unity with diversity and that's my

dispensationalism.

And there have been.

But they

even didn't

agree.

I mean

you had a difference for Trent or Gillis and you get all this

going on there.

But I'll tell you where the

problem is and

does not.

And so where do

you find yourself in regard to be a moderate dispensationalist.

I'm happy with that.

I'm not trouble with.

That at all.

Okay.

Now in first Peter 2 9 we read.

But you are a chosen race a royal a royal priesthood a holy nation of people for

God's own possession so that you may be may proclaim the excellencies of him who has called you out of

darkness into his marvelous light.

Is this a description of the.

Church for Israel.

Okay I you know I've answered this in my book.

There's a section there about two pages in which I deal with this passage

again.

We we've got us.

You know you can read a passage out like that.

Is this a check.

No.

What you've got to do is you've got to go to a scripture at exit.

Just question who is Peter apart from that

verse.

They're speaking to let me tell you

probably the critical commentary

of good British scholar

called so he deals with

and points out this has been debated over the centuries since the time of August 10th.

Company is that there's no question.

You can look it up and you'll see.

He says.

It seems that most not August I think was he gives

a long left or

all

part of this.

But but be that as it may there's no problem.

It is running to Jewish people.

That's so.

It's the agenda to see.

This is where some of the.

Confusion with our millennialists and post -millennial.

So if the if the Gentile believers are being grafted in with the Jews the believing Jews

how could that be.

Israel of Gentiles aren't being grafted into Israel.

If Israel is not the church you know I mean isn't isn't the isn't there one body.

And if the Gentiles.

Are grafted in with the Jews.

Wouldn't that one body with distinction one body with

gifts.

There's even diversity

in the Godhead.

You've got the father

economically there you've got one God and you've got diversity within the Godhead.

It comes down through is and so forth and so you're

gonna have to vote.

There and by the way dr. Horner I forgot to mention that that sister in Christ who wrote asking about your book she

wrote she asked about it because she heard that day yesterday John MacArthur John MacArthur was

promoting it in a.

Preaching that's right.

Yeah.

Well I John MacArthur and it's not because he says nice things about my

book this is exegetical his expository ministry and I continue to do

that very all right.

And I give you repeat your websites once again for our listeners.

Yes the bunion website is

just www bunion minutes www.

Well it.

Has been a pleasure to have you back on the program again dr. Horner and I look forward to having you back on the

program to discuss John bunion and I love that that seminar that you put

on regarding that Pilgrim's Progress so I would really love to have you return to address that issue and

others.

Oh yeah.

Well God bless you brother and we're going to be beginning our second hour with James Hamilton and in a minute

so we thank you for joining us on iron.

Sharpens iron.

All right.

Well God bless you and we'll be right back after these.

Messages that don't go away.

On the day of broadcast this episode of iron sharpens iron included an interview with a second guest

dr. James Hamilton.

However because of technical difficulties the majority of the interview with dr. Hamilton suffered digital

corruption and could not be repaired.

Rather than air a very incomplete interview we made the difficult decision to leave dr.

Hamilton's portion out of the podcast.

We at iron sharpens iron would like to extend an apology to our listeners and we would especially like

to apologize to dr. Hamilton.

We hope the dr. Hamilton will be able to be on iron sharpens iron in the future to address this

topic and.

Others.