Is Cultural Appropriation Sinful?

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Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask.

01:33

We're your hosts, Harrison Kerrig and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we'll answer the age -old question, is cultural appropriation sinful?

01:41

Now, it seems like this is one of those topics that, while it is very prevalent today, it's not necessarily something that has been discussed over the course of centuries.

01:55

Tim, I doubt there's very many writings from Augustine on the topic of cultural appropriation.

02:02

Is this a relatively recent sort of controversy that's come up?

02:09

Yeah, I mean, it's definitely the kind of thing that, I mean, it's been going on in academic discourse since the 80s, so it's not necessarily a new idea, but then

02:18

I think there's been, over the past few years, just an increasing awareness of some of these like knee -jerk impulses that people have had.

02:28

So people, I mean, most of us for many decades now, we've just been subconsciously brainwashed by some of these nonsensical ideas like cultural appropriation.

02:39

And then I think with Trump's presidency in general, once he declared war on critical theory, a lot of people just became much more aware of a vocabulary for what intuitively they've been trained in.

02:54

And so there's been a lot more talk about these kind of things in a post -Trump world in general, where a lot of these things that are currents that are operating under the surface, they've kind of been brought to light.

03:08

But now, I mean, cultural appropriation is like a term that's being used much more regularly, so it's not just like some sort of intuitive, you can't do certain things, you don't necessarily know why, but you're being told they're racist, so you can't do certain things.

03:25

Now it's much more like in your face, like it's labeled, it has a name now.

03:32

So, I mean, I think growing up, if… There's been,

03:38

I won't say necessarily growing up, but I've seen things in the past decade of seminary professors who basically adopting rap poses while making a rap video and getting in trouble for being racially insensitive.

03:53

And so that kind of thing used to be talked about under the language of racial insensitivity. So if you get a bunch of old white guys doing a rap video dressing, acting like gangsters, throwing gang signs and doing all that, you would think, oh man, this is offensive.

04:11

This is offensive, this is culturally, or this is racially insensitive or whatever. That's kind of the language that would be used about 10 years ago, and now we're just…

04:19

We realize the name that's been behind the scandal the whole time kind of thing, and that name is cultural appropriation.

04:29

So cultural appropriation, what is it? Is it just pretending that you're from a different culture?

04:36

Is that what you're saying? All right, so Oxford defines it as the unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc.

04:44

of one people or society by members of another and typically more dominant people or society.

04:50

And so there's an asymmetrical standard here. So cultural appropriation is just…

04:56

It's a big nothing burger. It's just nonsense. So if you think about it as it relates to…

05:04

If you think about it, it relates from a minority acting like a white person or something like that.

05:11

So a black person acting like a white person. It's just… There's nothing to this.

05:20

There's always going to be a dominant group in society. So if I go to China, I'm going to have to adopt the practices, the cultures, the habits of Chinese people in order to fit in.

05:30

That's what I'm going to have to do. Meaning, if I want to get ahead in the…

05:37

I mean, I could just go there and just be myself and not learn the language, not learn the customs, not learn the practices, just build a strange, unconventional house in the middle of all the

05:49

Chinese houses or something like that. You could just be a wrecking ball of culture if you want, right?

05:56

Make no effort whatsoever to fit in. But if you were to do that kind of thing, no one would literally blink an eye, right?

06:05

Meaning, if I were to go to China and I would need to, in some sense, adopt some

06:11

Chinese cultures and practices, being not a Chinese person myself, I would have to kind of do that in order to relate to that society.

06:19

And that's just generally what you do, right? Right. That's just generally how the world works.

06:26

But then the idea of cultural appropriation happens is when you have…

06:34

Why that would not be considered cultural appropriation for me to do that, to adopt those practices or habits, would be because if the dominant culture is

06:44

Chinese and me is like a 75 % white guy goes to China, right?

06:52

Then I would be considered like a minority in that way. And so then I'm just kind of conforming myself to majority.

06:58

So what's happened though is critical theory has taught us to problematize every single cultural interaction in those ways.

07:05

And so in America, in particular, white males are seen as the dominant oppressive group of people, right?

07:15

So a black person can basically act in a stereotypical white way and no one would blink an eye whatsoever, right?

07:25

So what's happening though is you can have Hispanic people come here. There's no…

07:32

Because white people are viewed as kind of like, or whatever you want to call it, white culture is viewed as like an oppressor due to critical theory, then there's no impulse that anyone has, no expectation anyone has that anyone should assimilate to that because that would be assimilating to the suppressor class, right?

07:51

The people? In a way that if you were to go to another country, there would be some sort of expectation that you would assimilate.

07:58

Now I understand that America's history is complicated, just like every history is complicated, right?

08:06

But then when you think about what's actually being communicated here, if you're a member of a…

08:12

If you view the world through oppressor and oppressed classes of people, then with the idea of cultural appropriation, one of these dominant or oppressor classes, when they adopt these cultural practices of oppressed or marginalized, quote -unquote, group of people, then that's when you have cultural appropriation, quote -unquote, occurring.

08:35

So that would be the unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of customs, practices, ideas of one people or society by members of another typically more dominant.

08:45

So if the white seminary professors are making the rap video where they're dressed up as thugs and gang members and throwing up gang signs, then basically that's viewed through the language of a power dynamic, through power dynamics.

09:02

And so functionally, when they do something like that, they're basically othering black people in that way, right?

09:12

And so then that's just an exercise of patriarchal, oppressive dominance on this other class of people.

09:19

Colonizer dominance, yeah. Colonizer dominance, yeah. So that's essentially what's happening. But going the other way,

09:25

I did an appliance delivery job. And when

09:33

I was just getting out of seminary, I did an appliance delivery job, and my quote -unquote partner—you can't even say that word anymore because it sounds weird—my delivery partner, he was a black dude, right?

09:49

And so now he would talk like he had all the bass in his voice that you can imagine, gravelly bass.

10:00

I mean, you could almost not even understand what he was saying while he's sitting there talking to his girlfriend on the phone next to me or whatever.

10:06

And then when he would call a customer up, he would switch from full -on gravelly bass voice to, hey, this is

10:16

James from Bailey's Delivery. Well, Tim, that's code switching.

10:24

Code switching is perfectly fine. I mean, I looked at him. I looked at him. I was like, what are you doing?

10:29

What are you doing over there? He's like, you've got to take the bass out of your voice or you'll scare white folks. That's kind of what he said.

10:39

You've got to take the bass out of your voice or you'll scare the white folks. So thinking about that, though, that's not him mocking white people by getting the nerdiest white voice that you could possibly imagine, right?

10:58

Because he's viewed as a member of a marginalized group of people. And so him making fun of white people by doing the nerd white voice while he's calling up customers, like that.

11:13

I was like, what do you think they're going to do when they see you and you're talking in your normal voice? You're going to talk in the nerd voice?

11:19

Like, you can't pull it off, man. But anyways, no, that's not cultural appropriation. But then if you were to do it in the reverse, then basically you have a worldview that problematizes every kind of normal thing.

11:32

So going one direction, it's considered really, really bad. And then going the other direction is perfectly fine, which is why,

11:40

I mean, you can watch comedy shows and you can have a black dude on a comedy show just sitting there mercilessly mocking white people over and over and over again.

11:50

And that's called punching up, right? So that's punching up. Meaning, because black people in our society are viewed as victims, you can kind of, that's just like speaking truth to power.

12:02

That's punching up. That's just like, it's okay when a member who is oppressed picks on his oppressors.

12:12

But then if you do it in the reverse, and this is how it's viewed, it's basically kind of, it's viewed like making fun of a mentally handicapped person or something like that.

12:21

That's called punching down. And so then if you make a joke the opposite way, then that's an exercise of colonialism, of dominance.

12:32

That's othering, that's oppressing, right? And so what you have is you have just this rigid law that's being in the minds of many people, unspoken kind of law that basically says you have to view everything through the lens of power dynamics.

12:49

And once you view everything through the lens of power dynamics, then you have one class of people who are just, so white people in America are viewed as being oppressors of black people.

13:01

And that's the basic assumption that makes all the inverse kind of logic make sense.

13:07

Once you view it that way, then basically black people can make fun of white people. White people can't make fun of black people, right?

13:15

Like you can't tease. Teasing only goes one way. And then a black person could, they could even, white face, they could go on full on white face.

13:30

And make a joke out of it. No one cares. But then the opposite is like, whoa, you can't do that because any kind of like, if a white person were to adopt like the cultural practices and habits of a black person, then like you're stealing from them, right?

13:46

You're taking something from them. You're othering them, right? You're either making fun of them or you're taking something from them or you're like mocking them or you're reinforcing negative stereotypes in that way.

13:56

So like the only way you could even do it would be to adopt some sort of, like reinforce some kind of negative stereotypes in that way.

14:03

And then, you know, like if, you know, like in the mildest kind of forms, like what you're doing is you're taking something from them.

14:14

So there was some actress who did something like that with makeup or something where she started to, you know, do some sort of makeup style that black women have been doing for years.

14:24

And it was just outrageous in the minds of many people because it was like, now she's trying to claim ownership of this makeup style as if it were hers, right?

14:33

And it's not, take credit for it herself and make it popular now. And now people, when they see it, they're going to think of like this white actress instead of where it comes from.

14:42

And so like, this is just like what happens when you view the lens or the world through the lens of power dynamics, basically.

14:48

Right, yeah. And, you know, I was glad you mentioned the whole comedy thing. Like you have comedians who come out and they'll like make fun of white people or whatever.

14:57

And, you know, I think a lot of times if you want to see what a society believes, you go and you listen to the comedians, right?

15:11

Yeah, sometimes they're more honest than everyone else, right? Right, right. And the reason is because like the funniest jokes are the ones that are rooted in some sort of like truth, right?

15:22

Not necessarily truth in the sense of like absolute truth, but then truth in the sense of like they're relevant to the current cultural climate.

15:31

And so people understand, you know, what you're joking about. And, you know, I like watching

15:37

Key & Peele a lot and they do this all the time. But the funny thing is they don't just do it with white people.

15:46

I mean, they make fun of Asian people. They make fun of Mexicans. You know, they make fun of black people.

15:53

I don't even resent that because I'm a quarter Mexican. You are a quarter Mexican. You do technically have a right to be offended by that.

16:02

Well, 25 % of myself can be offended, right? Well, yeah, and the other 75 % is constantly oppressing the other 25%.

16:11

So I guess I have to like, 75 % of myself has to feel like guilty for laughing at it.

16:18

And, you know, 25 % can laugh at the jokes. This is a class in CRT math right now.

16:29

That's right, that's right. But yeah, you know, so you see guys like this and, you know, I guess in some credit to Key &

16:36

Peele, they do kind of get everyone eventually with their jokes, but then a lot of them are sort of pointed towards white people and, you know, dressing up like white people and making fun of them.

16:50

But then if you had a black comedian come along and do the same thing, I mean, if you had a white comedian, yeah, if you have a white comedian come along and do the same thing and like put an

17:01

Afro on, you know, and change the way he talks, all of a sudden it would be like a very, it would not be received nearly as well.

17:10

It's kind of like the whole, who was the actor? He was like a black person throughout the entire movie.

17:20

And then right at the end of the movie, you find out he's actually a white person. Do you know?

17:25

I'm not sure. I wish. Oh, it was Robert Downey Jr.

17:32

So he puts on blackface, right? And then he's a black guy the entire movie and no one knows anything other than he's just a black guy.

17:45

And then all of a sudden he takes his, he rips off his, you know, mask or whatever he had on.

17:51

And then he's a white guy the entire time. And, you know, it was funny when it came out.

17:57

Like it was surprisingly, no one was really, no one was really upset with it as far as I can remember.

18:03

But then now people are looking back at that and saying like, hey, this is an egregious thing that you've done, you know?

18:10

And like, if that were, if that were to ever come out now, it's universally agreed that it would be condemned, right?

18:17

There was some like SNL skit or something, I think with Eddie Murphy doing the same thing where he basically put on whiteface basically.

18:25

And, you know, he was basically making fun of, you know, like what was the world? Like, I can't remember how the sketch went, but it was something along the lines of like him trying to experience life as a white person.

18:38

And so, so like he basically put on the white makeup and then, you know, like the banks are just throwing money at him and lending him all the money he wants.

18:46

And then every time like, you know, like they're all throwing a party everywhere they go.

18:52

And like, you know, so, I mean, you know, it's obviously, it's obviously - You know what the irony in that is?

18:58

What is that? The governments right now are desperately, you know, trying to - Doing the opposite. They're trying to like give reparations and, you know,

19:06

San Francisco is trying to give every black person $5 million. And it's like, dude, I never got $5 million.

19:14

Well, it's, so there's a lot of things going on with that kind of thing in general. And it's like, you know, part of like the difference between men and women in general is that men kind of like to tease each other.

19:28

And one of the things that men do is like we, like we like to tease, you know, and part of that is like women aren't nearly as like motivated to tease in the same kind of way.

19:41

And men do that in a way to kind of test each other a little bit. And so like, they'll pick you, you know, as a man, you'll pick at someone else.

19:48

And part of what you're doing is just seeing, you know, how do they handle like criticism?

19:54

And it's like, you know, if a guy handles it well and if he jokes back at you, then you like respect him, like you get his respect.

20:02

But then if he like, if he just gets all sensitive about it and starts, you know, moping and fussing, like you identify really quickly, oh man, he's sensitive, you know.

20:14

That guy's sensitive, he can't take a joke, right? And so then you're like, it affects the way you view it, view him.

20:20

But I mean, like ladies don't really, they don't operate like that in the same kind of way. They don't tease each other, like in the main, like in order to like test them to, you know, and part of that's just like men are designed to have courage and fortitude and to be, you know, thick skinned and, you know, not to be thin skinned and, you know, easily offended and everything else.

20:38

And so, like when you see a guy who can take it, take a, take picking at you, well, you respect him, right?

20:44

So like, if it doesn't get, if it doesn't get under your skin, but then like in general, you know, part of the way that like the world works is that like, if you can laugh about things, like it does, like, you know, that there's not like all these problems underneath the surface, you know what

21:01

I'm saying? Yeah. So once the humor goes, then like, you know, you're in trouble and, you know, part of like, part of like even how this works in the course of relationships with men and women is it must, like men, like they have, you know,

21:14

I know you're not allowed to talk about these kinds of like stereotypes in this way, but I mean like a lot of the ways that, you know, men try to win, win the heart of a woman is to get her to laugh.

21:24

And so like when you're in the courting stage, you're constantly cracking jokes and trying to get a, get a, get a girl to laugh at you.

21:31

But then, you know, once like, once you get married, like there's a lot of ladies who like, they really, they start really losing, like their ability to joke anymore.

21:42

And what, what this often, what often happens is like, that's just a sign that there's like a lot of problems, right?

21:48

So once you lose the ability to joke, like you can't joke anymore, you can't laugh anymore, like it all turns into a problem.

21:54

Everything is like deathly serious. That's just like a sign that there's like a bunch of problems underneath the surface that are not being dealt with.

22:01

And like, in the same thing is true in a society in general, is that like, if a society can't laugh at each other, like if everything is going to be taken offense, then, you know, like that's a sign of like bitterness.

22:13

That's like pervaded, that kind of society, this pervaded, that kind of discourse.

22:18

And it's like, it's never like, it's not like a recipe for like friendship, right?

22:25

So like most friendships are like filled with like laughter and jokes and like people not taking themselves too seriously and people not like taking their relationship with each other.

22:35

Too seriously. And I mean, you know, like there's, there is like a place for just like, kind of like laughing at each other and teasing each other.

22:43

But then when people take it real sensitive and take it real serious. And when you know that like anything can set this like thing off, right?

22:50

Like, like you, like you, like the, the situations you really don't like to go into or situations where you're walking on eggshells, knowing that offense could be taken at any point.

23:01

And in those kinds of situations, like you, like the last thing you're going to do is laugh, right? Last thing you're going to do is laugh.

23:08

Last thing you're going to do is joke. You're going to be serious. You're going to be on your best behavior. You're going to be tiptoeing around because you, you know that like, there's so many unspoken rules.

23:16

And that's part of what's like the problem with like critical theory and the way that it sets up, like, you know, the oppressor class and the oppressed class is like, you, you have like, you know, people who go into like racial encounters and like, you go into racial encounters, expecting that like almost anything you do can be a source of offense.

23:36

And like, that's just not a recipe for friendship. That's not a recipe for unity. That's just, that's just a recipe for like,

23:42

Hey, we're, we're in trouble here. You know? It's more divisive if anything, right?

23:48

Yeah. I mean, that's just like, it breeds division. Yeah. I mean, and this whole, you know, Robin's DeAngelo's thing, it's not whether or not racism occurs in any encounter is how does it manifest itself in any encounter?

23:58

And so, I mean, like you're the way critical theory trains you to go into racial interactions or ethnic interactions.

24:04

Cause like racist don't actually exist, but the way you're trained to go into that is like, it's not how racism will occur.

24:11

It's it's, I mean, it's not, if it will occur, it's how will it occur in any given encounter. And then the humor all goes right.

24:18

And so then you have like, basically like you go into these kinds of encounters, knowing like, you're, you're going to, you're going to give offense.

24:27

And there's all these different standards, like there's double standards out on how it relates to all of it.

24:32

And then you're like taking this, like, like normal, like, Hey, I, we,

24:38

I know we're friends like this kind of guy impulse. Like I know we're friends when we can joke, joke with each other.

24:44

Right. And we can laugh at each other and we don't take each other too seriously, but when you make it to where it's impossible, right.

24:50

It only goes one direction. So the way this relationship to work is you can pick at me and you can laugh at me all day long and I, I have to laugh back, but then

24:57

I can't pick at you. Right. Or I can't, then like, that's just a sign for like, we're in trouble.

25:03

Right. Yeah. Like in general. So, so with all that being said, you know, is it inherently wrong to, you know, appropriate someone else's culture?

25:17

I'm obviously not. I mean, first Corinthians nine 20 says to the Jews, I became a Jew in order to win the

25:22

Jews law, not myself being under law.

25:28

When, when those under the law, you know? So, I mean, basically I, I interpret that to mean like to, to the blacks,

25:34

I, I put on blackface in order. I might win the blacks. You view it as like, you got to become a sleeper cell agent.

25:46

No, Hey, Hey, what's up? Fellow guys. I'm just like you, but I believe in Jesus.

25:59

No, that's an unfortunate interpretation of it. So, you know, that, that versus basically those verses are basically used in like a pretty bizarre ways in general.

26:10

Right. So like they're used in pretty like meaning like, you know, like, so to the tattoo, you know, to the gang bangers, you need to like, dress up like a gang banger in order to win the, get all your tattoos and, you know, dress like him and everything else.

26:25

And like, but then, you know, apparently like I'd love to see one of these woke people do this as it relates to, to the blacks.

26:36

It does. So there's limits, there's limits to the, the, to the, you know, their missiology at that point.

26:42

But no, I, what is the question? You, you, you got yourself off with your, yeah.

26:50

The question was, is it inherently wrong? Is it sinful? It's cultural. Yeah. No, I mean,

26:56

I, I think it, I wouldn't say it would be inherently wrong. I think there's like, I, I do like, it could be like, meaning like there may be like, not, not all cultures are neutral.

27:11

Right. Sure. So, so I, I'm going to say it may be, but not in the way that people think. Like, meaning like not all cultures are neutral and you shouldn't, you know, take, take on the habit.

27:23

Like you, you should be respectable and you shouldn't take on the habits and the practice of like cultures that are hostile to God, sacrificing people or something.

27:33

Yeah. I mean, so like, you know, and this part of like the missiology discussion where it's kind of a bizarre, right.

27:39

So you go into the nudist, you know, tribe and you become a nudist tribe.

27:44

Like no one takes that logic that far, but there's no reason why you shouldn't, if that's what's being communicated there. So I don't,

27:50

I think, you know, not all cultures are equal and not all cultures are equally honoring to God.

27:57

Not all cultural artifacts or symbols or, you know, expressions are good. So like you can, so you can, you know, like, you know, as you're thinking through this topic, like there may be certain elements of doing that kind of thing that are very dishonorable.

28:18

I mean, when Rachel, you know, Dolezal or whatever pretended to be a black person. I mean, there's obviously nothing like honorable to God about like lying about your ethnicity and pretending to be a different ethnicity, you know, for the whole life.

28:35

So like, that could be like, that was, you know, cultural appropriation or whatever, but the sin there is a sin of lying.

28:41

So there could be examples of things like that, that are like wrong, like forms of cultural appropriation, but maybe not for the reasons possible reasons that are being said.

28:51

But then like the idea in general, like there shouldn't be some asymmetrical standard is the point, right?

28:57

There shouldn't be any partiality basically. Yeah. There shouldn't be some asymmetrical standards. So whatever the rules are across the board should be the rules across the board.

29:05

So, I mean, like if you're an actor, like we're just talking about this in the realm of acting in general, like, obviously like, you know, like when you're an actor, you're pretending to be something that you're not.

29:15

And there's no necessary, like, like, like, you know, you can get outraged and like, like, you know, if, if you're living in a predominantly, you know, white area or your predominant

29:28

Chinese area, then, you know, your Chinese people are going to probably, you know, if they're going to act out certain historical scenes or whatever, they're probably going to have to get creative, right?

29:39

Right. Like, and so like, there's not some sort of demand for like what's happening is you have some sort of demand for equal representation across all ethnic lines.

29:48

And a lot of it is just about talent and everything else. So, I mean, I get it. Like, I get that, like, if you're intentionally overlooking at actors of actresses of a certain ethnic group, you know, for the sake of, you know, turning every, like, you know, character who was a different ethnicity into a white kind of version of it or something.

30:11

I get that. It's weird at a certain point. And it may be that you're shown partiality that way, but then, you know, acting is about like pretending to be something you're not in general too.

30:20

So it's, it's a little bit complicated, but I think the rules across the board are like, we should take ourself a lot less seriously than what we do.

30:29

And so, you know, and we should get rid of a lot of the baggage that's that keeping us bound to kind of this, like hatred and, you know, bitterness and everything else.

30:41

And so a lot of the cultural, like appropriation discussion is just kind of rooted in bitterness and rooted in, you know, just these permanent kind of like permanent postures of bitterness and, and viewing the world through the lens of power dynamics that need to go.

30:56

And so, yeah, I don't have any problem with like Eddie Murphy dressing up, but like a white person to experience the world as a white person,

31:01

I think it's kind of funny, you know? And so I think that everyone, I think that that should be able to be done in the opposite way and everyone would laugh at it.

31:09

And if we can't, like if we can only laugh one direction, then it's probably that we're in trouble. Right. Right.

31:14

Do you think there's any aspect of cultural appropriation that might be wrong, you know, because it's born out of like a, a wrong, like motivation.

31:26

So for example, you know, like let, let's say, let's take the joking example, right.

31:33

That you just said was, is fine. Right. Right. And let's say someone is, you know, whether they're white or black, whatever, it doesn't matter.

31:42

They're pretending to be, you know, a different ethnicity and, and they're like making, they're mocking the other ethnicity, but then it's not necessarily out of like a tongue in cheek kind of thing.

31:56

It's, it's more out of like a, no, I just, I, you know, I hate this culture and I want to mock it.

32:02

You know, like, does, does that venture into a, you know, realm? Is there ever, you know, basically what

32:08

I'm asking, is there ever a realm to say like, well, there, you know, it might be wrong for like a, not necessarily because the action is wrong, but then because the motivation is wrong, or it might even be viewed as like,

32:22

Hey, you're, you're, you're being like totally disrespectful, you know, is, is that like a category in your mind?

32:31

Yeah. So the, the original like idea of blackface, right? Like the reason why blackface, something like blackface is so offensive is because I can, you know, menstrual shows essentially.

32:40

I mean, you had, you know, blacks, blacks who weren't allowed to be actors, right. Or actresses.

32:45

And so then you would have like white people doing all the acting at that point.

32:51

And then when they were, you know, when they would, you know, put on blackface or whatever, they would, you know, basically their play acting as a black person.

32:59

But then there's often in like, you know, very, exaggerated, stereotypical kind of condescending, even like portraying black people in, in kind of like a subhuman way in that way.

33:12

And so in that way, I mean, obviously there's like, if there's some attitude behind that, like, like there's a lot that's wrong with that kind of arrangement.

33:23

That was, that was wrong. Right. With that kind of arrangement related to the motives and related to the tone and, you know, what's being had there and everything else.

33:33

And so, I mean, Bible says that love is not irritable, rude, and we're all members of one human race. And so all the, like the, you know, the, what is the right word?

33:48

I'm all the Darwinism that's implicit in all that. Scientific racism, this implicit and all that.

33:57

And then just like the mocking degrading, tearing down, it's not edifying. It's not like, it's not a good natured, you know, it's there's, it's pointed.

34:07

Right. So, so I, yeah, I definitely think that you could, you could do, you could do this in a way that is wrong, right.

34:18

With wrong motives. So a lot of it does hinge upon motives. Now, I mean, like if you were to mock like certain, like now another, another part of this though, is to say like, well, are you allowed to mock certain description, like destructive cultures in that way?

34:35

Right. And so, I mean, like key and peel are obviously doing that, like with, like in different ways.

34:42

Like, so, I mean, like there's no problem, like mocking, like slave owning cultures. Right. Right.

34:47

Like, so there's no problem in like mocking, like, you know, the Southern slaveholder kind of redneck kind of culture, like that could be present.

35:01

I mean, you can imagine like mocking Nazi culture or something like that. Right. Yeah. Like in the sense of like, if you're, if you don't have to view all cultures as neutral and there are some harmful, destructive elements of them that you don't want to go back to.

35:16

Right. For instance, then now, I mean, I know like in different countries that you either outlaw any kind of joking and even you can't even like mention like Nazis or something like that without kidding find, or it's illegal or something like that.

35:31

But so what I'm trying to say is like, I think that there are like, like the,

35:38

I part of this is a discussion of mockery and when is mockery appropriate and when it's mockery, not appropriate, but there's certainly like another element of it.

35:47

Like is, do all cultures have to be praised equally? And then there's like, there are times and places where mocking is not edifying, not helpful, not building up at all for sure.

35:58

Okay. So there, so there are times where it's not good, but, but then you're essentially saying that they're not good because of the motivations behind them.

36:07

Not necessarily like the action itself. Am I, is that, am I understanding correctly? Yeah. I mean,

36:14

I do. So for instance, like, you know, your classic example of cultural appropriation is when the white girl dresses up like an

36:20

Indian for Halloween or something like that. I think Gwen Stefani made some kind of,

36:25

I heard about her making some kind of music video or something where she was dressed up like Pocahontas or something like that.

36:34

And I mean, like, so some of that is just like, I mean, there are like whatever's happening with that. They're not intending to mock

36:40

Indians by dressing up as an Indian or something. Right. There's no attempt at mockery there.

36:46

Right now. I mean, like, like meaning like you're dressing up as like a, I mean, this is kind of what you do with Halloween, right?

36:55

You dress up as something that you're not, you're pretending to be something now, you know, so a lot of like the

37:01

NFL, like the Washington Redskin kind of discussion, you know, the

37:07

Seminoles and all that, like a lot of it is like, like there's a cultural appropriation kind of discussion in all of that to where like, all right, you're going to have an

37:15

Indian as your mascot. Aren't you turning your mascot into an animal or something like that? It's like, well, I mean, there's a

37:21

Dallas Cowboys, man. Like, like the, like Dallas Cowboys are not animals.

37:26

Cowboys are not animals, you know, Cowboys and Indians, like Cleveland Indians, like what's the big deal, you know?

37:32

So I think there's a part of it to where like, you can imagine like the white girl dressing up as the Indian and like a very, like, there's just nothing to it.

37:40

Like there's no mockery that's there. There's no sub, like dehumanizing anyone. There's nothing like that that's happening.

37:46

It's just like simple Halloween costume, you know, kind of discussion that's happening. And so, and then there's a way that you can just do so just purely to tear down and to insult and to degrade.

37:59

But then what's happened is, you know, because you have to view the world through these power, like through the lens of these power dynamics, then, you know, it's all viewed in the worst possible light from start.

38:12

And so there's, there's evil motives that are assumed that, you know, there's no way to kind of people can just disentangle themselves from that in the minds of many people.

38:22

And so what's happening is on the other side of this kind of discussion, it were like, these are just like this word is just kind of functionally become a club that is being used to basically destroy people out of vindictiveness and bitterness and everything else.

38:36

Yeah. You know, you mentioned like people assuming the motives of others as they, you know, cultural culturally appropriate.

38:48

I remember, I remember reading, this was probably a few years ago now, but I remember reading about a girl who decided,

38:55

I think she decided to wear like, I can't remember what they're called, but like, is it called like a kimono?

39:02

Is that, do you know what I'm talking about? Where it's like, yeah, like the Japanese sort of like robe dress thing.

39:12

And she wore this to like prom or, you know, some kind of function like that.

39:18

And the pictures, the pictures from the event, you know, she was a white girl wearing, wearing this stuff and the pictures went viral because she was wearing the dress.

39:32

And so people, you know, people were getting frustrated people who had never met her before, you know, who probably didn't even know her name.

39:40

They were just assuming that she had the worst motivations possible for doing this.

39:47

Right. When, and I think she came out and was like, Hey, you know, I, I wish

39:53

I had looked it up, but it was either like, she had, she did actually have some kind of ties to Japan through her family or, or it was like a,

40:02

Hey, you know, I just really respect the culture and I wanted to honor it, you know, by, by wearing the like traditional garb that they would have worn.

40:13

And, and so that, like, that sounds, you know, totally fine. And, and it's even, even like honorable in a certain sense.

40:22

If, if the idea is like, Hey, you know, there's another culture that I'm not, I was not raised in that I see, and I see a lot of respectable aspects to it.

40:33

I want to, you know, I want to learn about it. I want to, I want to, you know, honor it because I think it is respectable.

40:40

And, you know, in my mind that, that scene, I don't think this person was a Christian, but in my mind that seems to line up like with a

40:46

Christian worldview that says, Hey, treat others more significantly than yourself. You know, be someone, be someone who's marked by, you know, love and humility, not prideful.

40:58

and it really does kind of seem like, Hey, look, if I'm trying, like, I just want to honor other, you know, another culture that I think is worthy of respect.

41:05

That seems like a, that seems like that would fall right in line with the Bible, you know, or, or is not, not necessarily as like a requirement, but then as like a, you know, yeah, well, there's nothing wrong with that, that, you know, that's perfectly fine to do.

41:19

And, and most people should probably view it not as like a negative thing, but at least as like a, you know, morally neutral thing, if not like a, you know, good, a good thing in the sense of showing honor and respect towards your neighbor.

41:33

Right. Yeah. I mean, I think there's like a very real, as you're, as you're thinking about this discussion, there's, there's just, you have to take a step back and ask, like, what is the goal that we're trying to accomplish here?

41:45

And when you have so many double standards like this, it really does like hurt your brain to think like, how am

41:51

I supposed to follow all the subjective, arbitrary rules? Meaning like, so like, so if I, so like, we're told to show reverse partiality along ethnic lines in these ways.

42:06

And so, I mean, how often do you go into a store now and you see like people wearing shirts saying, this is a black owned business or whatever else.

42:12

Right. Right. So it's a black owned businesses. Whereas, you know, whereas Marco pride. And so like, what are you supposed to do as a person who's not black?

42:19

Right. Are you supposed to go in and support the business or not? Well, like, so if you do support the business, then what?

42:27

Like now you've culturally appropriated, right? Because you're adopting the habits of practice, the culture, the customs of another group.

42:34

Right. And so, I mean, it's the same thing with like FUBU, right? Like for us bias. So, you know, you have

42:40

African -Americans making a brand of clothing for us bias. If a white person were to buy that, then they're culturally appropriating because this is supposed to be just for us.

42:48

But then how do we, like support them financially as a society? If you have to constantly, like take this posture that says,

42:56

I'm not like you. Right. So like, there's no, so what's happening is you have like this direct kind of assault on unity.

43:04

Right. Yeah. So I, I mean, you know, in Galatians three 28 is relevant here. I mean, there's neither

43:09

June or Greek. There's neither Slade nor three. There's neither male nor female for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Like there should be some impulse to say,

43:16

Hey, we're all members of one human race. We're more alike than we are different. And like, there shouldn't be this dividing wall of hostility that we're fundamentally at odds with.

43:24

We all have to live and stay in our own little ghettos. And so like, there's like, this is like a racist kind of proposition in general that basically just says that in order to like, be faithful,

43:34

I have to segregate myself into my own little ghetto and, you know, adopt only the practices of my, like, you know, ethnic group, right.

43:45

And culture and customs. And, and so like you're beat up either way. Right. So like, if you're a white person, you actually do that.

43:51

You don't, you know, you don't patronize any of these black owned businesses. You, you just patronize like members of your ethnic group, white people, you adopt only habits and practices of your white group.

44:03

You live in isolation, you know, like white flight, all that. Right. Yeah. Like you do all that.

44:09

Then you're like formally, like you're a racist if you do that. Right. But then if you were to say, well, no,

44:15

I'm going to like, I'm going to move the other way. I'm going to try to unify with you.

44:21

Right. I'm going to adopt your cultural practices and habits. I'm going to, I'm going to listen to your music. I'm going to wear your clothes.

44:27

Then you're culturally appropriating. And so what, what, what that all tells you is that like, really this, this isn't about like, there's no like good biblical goal here.

44:35

Right. Right. All it's about is like separation and division. There's no good goal that can be found here because, you know, as Robin DiAngelo says, it's not whether or not racism occurs, it's how does it occur in any given interaction.

44:48

So like, if you stay with your ethnic group, right, like you refuse to intermarry, like you don't, you don't buy any of the food from those black owned businesses.

44:58

you know, you keep distinct, you keep separate, you're racist. If you, if you move, you know, just say,

45:04

Hey, we're like, let's be unified with together. Like let's do this together. Right. Then you're culturally appropriating.

45:09

And what this is just about power. It's not really about, there's no good redeeming goal behind all the project in general.

45:16

It's just about raw power. It's just like, like once you divide that world up into oppressor and oppressed class of people, then this, you know, quote unquote, the oppressed class of people, then they constantly just have a reason to have a chip on their shoulder and, you know, attack you either way.

45:31

Right. And so, and this is why this fundamentally is, it's just a divisive project.

45:36

Yeah. And based on divisive assumptions that are designed to permanently keep people at odds and at war and at enmity with each other.

45:45

When really, I mean, like we're all members of the same human race. We should like, we shouldn't even be thinking in these terms.

45:52

And it's not like your culture, my culture, right? like that, like those things are,

45:57

I mean, you know, there's plenty of like cultural elements that are neutral and there's some cultural elements that are not.

46:03

And you should be critical of like the elements of your culture, right? Of your ethnic group that are dishonoring to the

46:11

Lord. And you should get rid of those things. You shouldn't just sanctify them and ask everyone to praise them. And the same sense, like, you know, if there are other habits of other cultures that are honoring to God more than the habits of your, you should like, think about putting some of those things on.

46:25

Right. Yeah. In order to be more faithful. And so I think we can learn from different cultures, but you don't have to like sanctify every culture.

46:33

And then you don't have to keep them permanently separated, you know? And I mean, this essentially like what's happening, you know, with the cultural appropriation trend is basically just to say, like, just give us money, give us stuff, leave us alone.

46:47

Let us be separate. Right. Yeah. Give us all your money. Right. But don't do anything like just and praise what we're doing.

46:54

So you have to like praise what they're doing, praise their culture, not take part in it in any way.

47:00

Right. And then, but then the only way that that works is just kind of, you know, what they say is sell your house and give them money, you know, as like just, you know, hand over money, you know, hand over property, hand over assets, hand over jobs, you know?

47:16

And it's just, it's just a recipe for division. And, you know, it seems like one of the main goals of this is of, of like pushing these kinds of ideas like cultural appropriation is essentially to try and take like a, take what cultures are right now.

47:34

And probably, you know, probably some of the cultures that are in the immediate past that might not necessarily be relevant anymore, but they're, you know, approximately a close enough to us in the timeline that they're still somewhat relevant to try and, you know, bring back or resurrect in some way.

47:54

The, but then it's to try and like take those cultures and essentially try and preserve them as they are right now and never change them in any way and never let there be any bleed over into any other separate culture.

48:08

It seems like that is whether, whether that's on purpose or not, it seems like that is one of the inevitable, you know, hypothetical goals of this, of this kind of ideology.

48:19

But then I think if you're thinking that way, then you're pretty ignorant to like history in general and how cultures are formed because cultures are always, they're constantly changing.

48:34

They're constantly being modified. And, you know, maybe, maybe in some ways that's slowed down as we've kind of reached a point where countries aren't, aren't necessarily like conquering each other in the same way that they were throughout, throughout the majority of human history.

48:51

But then, you know, like, like where do you think African -Americans got their culture from?

48:58

You know, it was, it was a mix of where they came from along with like Southern white culture.

49:05

Right. I mean, there's no, there were no black people that were, there are no black people kicking grits in Africa.

49:11

Right. But then grits is sort of, that's like a, you know, I mean, it's a Southern food, but then it's something it's, it's put in the category of like soul food, which is typically something that, you know, that black people really excel at making and do a lot better than white people.

49:28

You know, they, they weren't, you can say this because you have a mixed wife. I'm allowed to say this.

49:33

I have, I have CRT immunity, but like they, they weren't playing jazz in Africa.

49:39

Right. And, and it's the same and it's not just African -Americans. It's, it's everyone. I mean, where did, you know, where did the

49:46

Romans get a lot of their cultural ideas from, from Greece when they, from the people they conquered.

49:52

Right. This is just like the normal, like culture changes as, as countries change.

49:59

Right. And so as countries take on, you know, as they conquer other people, like we've been talking about, as you know, immoral things happen like kidnapping and man stealing in terms of the transatlantic slave trade.

50:13

And even, you know, even good things. I mean, like when you look at the, the foundation of our country, what was happening was, you know, people from all over Europe were coming, they're immigrating to America and bringing their culture in.

50:28

And, you know, that's why, that's why they referred to the U S as a cultural melting pot.

50:35

Right. Is because you had all these different people coming together, living in close proximity, and then just inevitably their cultures sort of merged together and, and various ways.

50:44

And so, so to try and to try and, you know, take like a current snapshot of culture and say, this is what it is.

50:52

I've got mine. You've got yours. You know, I can do whatever I want with yours because you're the one in power, but then you can't touch mine.

51:00

I mean, I think that's just kind of an ignorant sort of like, it's going to change, dude, you know, and, and it's going to change.

51:07

And I mean, I think, you know, part of the point that you're making this like very significant point is the fact that like we should be learning from other cultures and growing from other cultures.

51:18

There's like improvement, like we can improve, like, you know, if you don't have to just like everyone.

51:24

So this is why it's like fundamentally, like just a racist kind of ideology in general is that like, is the goal really that everyone just stay in their uniquely preserved ghetto?

51:35

Like that's the point, like, you know, no pun intended. Is that, is that what we're supposed to, is that what we're asking?

51:41

Whatever flaws it has, those are what it needs to have because that's what it is right now.

51:47

Right. So whatever flaws it has, it has, you have to praise those flaws too.

51:52

Right. And you have to, and then you have to keep those separate. And it, but then like, you know, they, when cultures mixed together like that, you do advanced in certain ways too, just like when people mix together, you just, you know, every culture has strengths and weaknesses and everything else.

52:09

And so, and you develop new things, right. When you mix together certain traits from certain one culture and another.

52:16

So like, these are ultimately like you have a very you have the definition of segregation.

52:23

Right. That basically is like, it's okay in one direction and then wrong in another direction. And, but then it's confusing.

52:30

Right. Yeah. So, Tim, do you have anything else that you want to say before we wrap it up here?

52:37

Yeah, I think, I think with the idea of like cultural appropriation, I think like motive matters. And so what, you know, what, everything that we should be doing,

52:45

I will say is we should be doing to build up and like, it should be done for edification.

52:51

It should be done to, you know, build people up. And, you know, the Bible has a lot to say about unity and being one in Christ.

52:59

And, you know, as you're thinking about these kinds of things, you're thinking about this topic of cultural appropriation in general, like, you know, issues of partiality, issues of unity, issues of, like of edification, you know, all those things come to the forefront.

53:15

So I don't think there's any like simple answer to this question, but, you know, in general, the idea of cultural appropriation, because it's built on partiality, it is kind of a made up sin.

53:26

And really like the way to think, think it through is like, you know, partiality is bad. Like division is bad.

53:32

Like in terms of like, like, like you can mock people in a way that is like totally not edifying and not building up and has no redemptive purpose.

53:41

And, you know, so the primary issue though is one of motive in that way. And, and we should reject this, like viewing the world through power dynamics as like an all purpose, excuse, just to have permanent better than this and envy and hatred and divisions.

53:56

Right. Okay. Fair enough. Yeah. Well, like always guys, we appreciate all the support that you guys give us and helping us to continue on in the podcast, whether that be financial or, you know, reaching out to us, we, we enjoy getting to talk about these things with you and, and our hope and the aim with all of this is to is for God to use it to equip you guys for the works of ministry.

54:20

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54:26

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54:39

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54:52

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55:00

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