Continuation of Response to Sheikh Awal

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

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United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

James white And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line continuing our response to Sheikh Ahmed Mohammed Awal Or is it

Mohammed Ahmed Awal? Well, actually, I've heard Muslims say that both terms are related to one another

So is that like being James James? Not really certain about that, but I'm not really gonna get into that right now but anyway, we began our response last time

I'd like to at least get through his opening statement and I Listened to another presentation via DVD this morning that he was making on a radio station and Once again, one of the reasons that I'm looking forward to debating

Sheikh Awal and I hope that that that that happens and it's nothing gets in the way of that happening is because so much of what

Sheikh Awal says is directly from Ahmed deedat and I have told the story in a lot of my presentations of the fact that I think

Ahmed deedat is probably the most widely listened to Islamic apologetic speaker in the

Islamic world and Even though he is dead His videos continue to be widely

Distributed so an opportunity to respond to these things and we are as you may have noticed in the blog posting these things in Video as well on YouTube extremely valuable and you'll notice the subjects.

Well, they sound pretty familiar to subjects in relationship to the transmission of the text of scripture the reliability of the text of scripture the

Interpretation of the text of scripture all of these things that we deal with on a regular basis, so Continuing with the response we began on the last program

To shake a wall. He is in the midst of making an argument from Matthew chapter 7

That's pretty much where we wrapped up last day on that day. Many will come to me saying Lord Lord, did we not prophesy in your name in your name?

We cast out devil in your name Mighty works and Jesus said I don't know you get away from me

You who work iniquity the word iniquity in Greek means those who worship me for nothing

That's pretty much where we stopped last time. I point out that the word iniquity in Greek does not mean that That is not the meaning of the term in any way shape or form

Anamia is a well -known term. It means lawlessness and So I don't know where that came from.

But it does seem to me that many times shake a wall is giving us Second and third hand

In fact, I think it's a fascinating study possibly to see how things change as they're passed down Especially as he frequently memorizes texts of scripture and just like some of our

Arminian friends end up memorizing Matthew 23 37 Incorrectly that that impacts some of the things that he argues as well

It's interesting to me whenever they're interpreting a text of scripture, it's clear -cut doesn't require any interpretation but when

We are addressing a text of scripture. Well, then it's it's it's equivocal and it's unclear and there's multiple ways of interpreting it

I'm not sure we have a standard The same standard being used all the way along here and you say he died for your son.

Let's ask Jesus you see 24 hours before Jesus Christ was supposed to have been on the cross he took his disciples to the garden of Gethsemane and He said

Peter you stand here John you stand here and he put them in strategic position and the

Bible said in the book of Matthew chapter 26 verse 39 and Jesus went little further and he fell on his face and he prayed and he said

Now, let me stop here for a moment. He's gonna be going into the prayer of Jesus We've I'm not sure how much time you spend on this because we've spent so much time on it in the past You should be able to find either on the

YouTube page and we have over 450 videos on the YouTube page now Or in the

DL archives, and I'm not sure exactly how you'd find all of that but we have responded to Sheikh Shabir Ali's Presentations on Jesus's prayer a number of times in the past But I'm watching the video

I'm actually playing this from a video rather than just from an audio right now and When he said he placed

Peter and James's I was almost like guards or something like that But the text actually indicates that they were to be praying

That they were to be in prayer with him and he went a little bit farther on And and bowed in prayer my father let this cup pass away from me.

Not as I will but as that will What did he do and Jesus fall on his face like we do like the

Muslims do he fall on his face It's interesting when they attempt to make this connection that Jesus prayed like Muslims do except that there are all sorts of Texts in the

New Testament that address Jesus's physical attitude and prayer and there is no consistency

There is nothing about bowing down there's nothing about You know getting down getting up Raising your hands putting your hands in a certain way saying the same words in Arabic or anything else

Jesus bows down in this case, but there are many other places where he prays that does not take place.

And so again a fair honest examination of the biblical text

Would be in order here. He prayed like I do And he said oh my father let this cup pass away from me not as I will but as that will what is the cup

If you have a Bible with concordance with index and cross -reference look up for the word cup.

It means dead No cup does not mean death

Cup can have all sorts of meanings When Jesus said can you drink this cup with me it can be related to Persecution it can be related to death, but it does not itself mean death

Again he says, you know, look at a concordance it it just doesn't strike me that Sheikha wall is is familiar with for example the the key

Passages of the key resources. I'm sorry in regards to the study of the New Testament Bauer and King Richard Donker or Any, you know

Kittles theological dictionary the New Testament any of these types of sources? That would give you a much more in -depth

Understanding of these particular terms So he said in effect, oh my father let this cup let this debt pass away from me

Not as I will but as that will again in the book of Mark chapter 14 verse 35 He said

Abba Abba, I know that all things are possible would be please remove this cup of death away from me

In the book of Luke to the 22 verse 44 being in an agony Jesus he pray more earnestly and the angels came down and support him and I showed him in the

Quran We said what I did not will be ruled. The angel came and certain him. He doesn't want to die

He pray more now notice the interpretation that is being offered. He doesn't want to die

Now I suppose if you just ignore Everything in the New Testament says you don't allow the New Testament to speak.

You don't allow For the entirety of the apostolic witness that is found throughout the text in New Testament To be to be brought together which again,

I'm sure shake a wall would demand for the interpretation of the Quran But if you do that then you can just cut all this apart and you've just got a man who is afraid to die

But that clearly was not what Matthew was attempting to communicate that's clearly not what Mark was attempting to communicate

It's clearly not what Luke was attempting to communicate. It's clearly not what John was attempting to communicate. That's not what they believed There is much more going on in the garden than the mere concept of This this man being fearful of death

You have the very one who is going to become sin for us and The idea of the incarnate one who has never known anything

But absolute purity bearing the wrath of father who has never known anything, but perfect Communion and harmony

Between himself and the father he is going to Experience the wrath of the father in behalf of his people.

He is going to be made sin for us that we might be made the righteous of God in him and To for anyone to think for a moment

That the one who has communed with his father Perfectly as you would expect for the incarnate son the one

Who has had perfect unity with the father in eternity past Has entered in human flesh has given us the model of continued communion with the father one of the main arguments

They use as well. God doesn't pray to God. Well, if he's if the second person of Trinity has entered into flesh You better believe he is

He's not gonna act like an atheist and in this context knowing what's coming

Knowing the necessity of what is coming knowing

That he is going to be made sin for us He prays to the father

That's just merely fear of death That that shows that Jesus doesn't want to do what he has said from the beginning.

He was going to do No, it does demonstrate that as the

God -man if Jesus Did not suffer in the garden there is no way we could ever affirm that he was truly human

How could we how could we how could we even begin to suggest?

That knowing what was coming upon him that he would just be happy -go -lucky playing cards with the disciples in the

Garden of Gethsemane That's absurd But the only way you can make this an absurd argument is by ignoring what the

New Testament itself says in totality concerning what was actually taking place in the garden and his face was as Great blood from the face to the ground and the angels came down and assured him meaning he is not going to die

Who says so Jesus where in the Bible which made? Matthew chapter 7 verse 7.

Jesus said not and it shall be open seek and you shall find Ask and it shall be you know

Hurt what kind of father is it when you ask him for a bread? He give you a stone or you asking for a fish.

He give you a snake my father in heaven now in case You're not following what the argument is here

The argument is Jesus prayed not to die Allegedly the cup see you see that the argument here cup equals death

Jesus prays not to die the father gives good gifts and therefore he's gonna tie us in with Hebrews Completely missing the context of Hebrews to say that God would have given him his

His his requests would have granted his prayer That's the form the argument in case you're not accustomed to hearing this kind of argument being presented

He doesn't want to die But Paul crucified him Christ did not die on the cross

Who says so? the book of Deuteronomy chapter 26 verse 14 it says

That false prophets That false prophets shall be put to death

The false prophet and the dreamer of dreams shall be put to death all false prophets according to the

Bible shall be put to death I'm asking the question. How did Paul end his life?

What was the end of Paul? Paul was beheaded cut into pieces way in now how sheka well knows this.

I don't know Maybe he has some traditional source We we do not know the exact means of Paul's death or anyone else's death, but the logic again is amazingly bad

There have been many Muslims who have been decapitated in war. That doesn't mean they were false prophets

It's hard to even imagine someone making this kind of argumentation the point is that the the

Old Testament law Certainly prescribed The the severest penalties for false prophets but to connect that to the

Apostle Paul and say he was false prophet because Allegedly, he died at the hands of Romans. We don't know that but allegedly he did is just really bad argumentation,

I mean, that's So everyone who's ever been decapitated was a false prophet. I'm sorry, but that's

That that's pretty hard to take seriously At the time of Emperor Nero He was beheaded and cut into pieces in the

Bible Deuteronomy Chapter 26 verse 14 said the false prophet and a dreamer of dreams shall be put to death

How was Peter killed Peter was hung on the cross upside down? false prophets book of Deuteronomy chapter 21 verse 22 all the way to 24

It says if a man commits a crime and you hang him on the cross You shall by no means bury him that same day for whosoever is hung on the cross is an accursed of God It's actually hanging on a tree.

They weren't talking about crucifixion at that particular point in History a little anachronism there again one of the things that evidently this this

Stream of Islamic apologists taught is to quote all of their Bible verses because it's very impressive to people the problem is they very frequently misquote the

Bible verses in the process and Change words so that fits their argument better. And so you've you've got to just sort of keep that in mind

Yes shake of all we do that's the whole gospel message is that Jesus voluntarily

Gave his life upon Calvary's tree so as to become a curse for us So that curse might be removed from us our sins placed upon him that curse placed upon him his

Righteousness imputed to us which is why we have perfect peace with God. That is the

Christian message. That is consistent message That's consistent message of every single book that shake a wall has quoted so far if he will just allow the text to speak for themselves

But he does not He will money repel that idea that a human being could become a god and then die again,

I'm asking you a question A human being did not become a god it was the

Creator who entered into human flesh and he did so for the purpose of self glorification glorification of the triune

God and the redemption of a particular people through the very means of the cross of Calvary that's exactly how

The gospel presents it and notice the shake of all said this is repellent to the human mind. Well, it's not repellent to mine given his major misunderstandings and ignorances of these issues

I can understand that but It is it is based upon misapprehension and Misrepresentation not upon the actual biblical presentation.

I want you the audience to transpose yourself back into the era of Mary truth, okay now here comes a this is

This is the type of argument that is You can sort of tell when

Islamic apologists are getting revved up a little bit I've seen this is

Sammy's author. He did this in London in 2008 and I don't think they really understand that this is really ineffective if they're actually trying to reach a

Christian audience But it seems that from their perspective, it's extremely effective with their own people

That's this form of argumentation, which you're about to hear thousand nine years ago. I want you to put yourself in that stage imagine you were there when

Mary was having a baby and you were a nurse and you supposed to help Mary and Mary in the pain of giving bed

Baby Jesus that coming out and you help her to be a nurse to bring him out that puny little baby

With blood and mire and umbilical cord helpless, baby. What's your God your

Allah? Yes, sir, it's exactly right it is it is an amazing thing to consider the condescension of the

Sun to enter into true humanity, but he truly did so that is the testimony of Those who came long before Muhammad and we have no reason to believe

Muhammad understood in any way shape or form their testimony from the New Testament And therefore we have no reason to accept

Muhammad's denunciation of what they said in the New Testament but of course

I would like likewise at the same time point out that it was the second person of the

Trinity the Eternal Son who Entered into human flesh. It was not the father and it was not the spirit

This was not a situation where there was no one left to run the world or a similar

Argumentation that they utilize when they say well when Jesus died, then how did the universe continue on etc, etc

They of course seem to think that death means non -existence, which it doesn't even in their own theology But be it as it may this is a type of argumentation is a kind of thinking

That is repeated so often within the mosque within the masjid That you as a believer need to realize that it's there and that you are trying as best you can

In your presentation and in the language that you use to overcome these barriers if We were talking about Mormonism right now if we were talking about Jehovah's Witnesses right now

If we're talking about Roman Catholicism right now We will be talking about those specific things in the teaching of believing in these groups that you have to overcome in language the language

Barriers while there is understanding barriers not just language barriers There may be even more language barriers and talking to the

Muslims But there is also a recognition of all the false teaching that they receive that you need to recognize its presence and therefore

Make your presentation in such a way that you can seek to overcome that Could be a

God Don't think about this doesn't if you've got It doesn't before but that is what we are talking about that God cannot be a human being he's beyond human

And there you have the very assertion. God cannot be a human being well if you mean ceasing to be

God Well, that would be obvious, but we don't believe that he's ceased to be God and so the question that I've asked many an audience now of Muslims is

If Allah created mankind and if the law is the creator of all things

Then upon what logical basis do you assert that Allah could not enter into his own creation not not ceasing to be a law

But why can he not enter into his own creation if he makes mankind If he is the creator he says and we are

Why cannot he enter for whatever purposes you might have that you you may would say well, you'd never have that purpose

That's a different issue logically. It's a different issue. You are assuming an incapacity on the part of God Based upon other things, but but it'd be open about those other assumptions that you are making and Recognize they're not our assumptions.

And in fact, they're directly contradicted by something that you actually call a revelation that you said it you your own book says was sent down by God and We are told as the island

Geo the people of the gospel to believe What is contained in the gospel and to test what you say

Based upon what is in that gospel? Did he die on the cross you say he died on the cross?

Did he die on the cross you said he died on the cross, but we see in the book of Hebrew the book of Hebrews chapter 5 verse 7

Talking about what the Christ died on the cross or not Please I want you to listen for the

Bible said about whether Christ died on the cross or did not die on the cross The book of Hebrew chapter 5 verse 7 it reads

Who in the days of his flesh? Referring to Jesus at the time that he was in flesh walking flesh and bone

He offered up prayers and supplication and crying and tears to the only one who can save him from death

And he was hurt This verse tell us that Jesus did not die on the cross

So there you go. There's there's the argumentation. I mentioned he was moving toward and This is a fairly common argument.

So I want you to consider for just a moment By the time we get to the fifth chapter of Hebrews, we've already had numerous references to the death of Christ He was chapter 2 for example

Hebrews chapter 1 when he had made purification for our sins referring to the death of Christ you have repetitive references to the death of Christ prior to Hebrews 5 and You're gonna have even more after Hebrews chapter 5

You're gonna have whole discussions of his being the high priest the offering of his body once for all the sacrifice

Just the book of Hebrews is by far the most in -depth discussion of the purpose and intention of the sacrifice of Christ in all the

New Testament and Yet Muslims will come to it and the sad and scary thing is

Christians are So ignorant of the book that they don't even know where to go to demonstrate the foolishness of this interpretation

But Muslims will come to this one text and say see Jesus offered up prayers and supplications loud cries and tears

To him was able to save him death and he was heard because of his reverence. They won't go on Although he was a son.

He learned obedience to what he suffered and being made perfect. He became the source of eternal salvation

To all who obey him clearly

Speaking of his becoming the source of eternal salvation through his sacrificial death but what they'll do is they say well if he prayed to be saved from death and he never died and Of course, what's the writer of the

Hebrews point? Jesus was saved from death through the resurrection from the

Dead That's the whole point of the writer he was there's really no question about this

It's not something the scholars sit around going. Oh, I'm not sure what no It's it's obvious when you allow the book to speak for itself but you see shake a wall is normally talking to an audience of people who have never read the book of Hebrews and therefore and and You know shake a wall says have been studying the

Bible for 20 years But shake a wall also says he's got 28 different Bibles in his house, so he doesn't has 28 different translations

He he doesn't seem to recognize the Bible is a translation of an ancient language text

It's exact same way the Quran is he will recognize that for the crime He doesn't for the Bible, so I'm not really sure how in -depth the study has been

But this kind of interpretation Really is Just doesn't have any any merit to it at all who in the death of his flesh who

Jesus he offered up prayers and supplication and Tears and crying to the only one

God who can save him from death, and he was heard heard from what? The prayer that he gave in the book of Luke Matthew, which

I quoted that he was falling down He doesn't want to die But according to you Jesus Christ and God have make an agreement that seven thousand years ago after Adam Christ will come and die for mankind, but as you can see on the cross

What did he say a lot in oil a mashable tiny in Hebrew in Arabic Allah Allah the mother of them my

God my God Why do you forsake me? He's crying He clearly does not and I've heard him make this argument word more than once now

He clearly has no understanding of the background of Eloi Eloi Lama Sabachthani in Psalm 22 and The typological fulfillment of that messianic prophecy in the suffering of the

Messiah Which is so clearly laid out there. I have to wonder who shake a wall thinks is suffering in the 22nd

Psalm Who is going through those things and then who then is is vindicated at the end of the psalm?

but the fact that this was a Direct quotation from the 22nd psalm just never appears in his interpretation.

And so he completely misses the point of Jesus words From the cross supposed to have died willingly according to the

Christians to die willingly For mankind, but he was on the cross crying Eloi Eloi Lama Sabachthani Somebody else was on the cross the

Quran said when I tell you who were my son Abu they did not kill him They did not crucify him

Well, I think should be kind of him What in the lezzy not a little feeling that he should give me the

Malik will be a million in the tuba as then Woman, I tell you who yakina. Well, I would love a leash

They did not kill him and they did not crucify him. But now personally I wouldn't mind hearing a debate between shake a wall and and Shabir Ali Whether Jesus was put on the cross or not

That would be that would be enjoyable to listen to but I wouldn't be holding my breath. It was made to appear to them.

So What was made to appear to them the fact that he died on the cross? Yes, someone was hung on the cross that day

Now, let me just go ahead and and stop here. Well, we'll be taking a break. But the fact that matter is

He can tell us that that's that's what should be highly him means The problem is you can't prove that from the text

It does not say someone else was made to look like Jesus. That's an interpretation. That's not what the text itself it says it was made to appear to them and The idea of somebody else being put on the cross this substitutionary theory, which

I would I would love to debate him on this subject this substitutionary theory Really ends up making

Allah Responsible for the beginning of Christianity because not only does Allah fool the Jews and the

Romans but the Christians as well that's why many people in in the

Western expression of Islam attempt to avoid That conclusion

Because it's extremely difficult to defend that particular. It is the majority viewpoint of Muslims around the world

But it's extremely difficult to defend as well We're gonna take our break and then come back with the important phone call and then continue on with our response

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Thank you And welcome back to the dividing line on a

Thursday afternoon And we are responding to shake a wall and his opening statement from debate from 2009 before we get back to that.

However Let's go up to the windy city and talk with Sam.

Hi Sam. How you doing? Hey doc. How are you brother? I'm doing pretty well. What would what would cause you to?

to call into the program today, I Was gonna let you just annihilate the opposition because I call you the jogger not

Except I don't jog very much but that's okay So have you had a chance to listen to this debate yet?

No, I don't know how to Get copies of the debate between There's there's a there's a fellow by the name of David.

You might want to talk to you about that. But that's where I got my copy, but it was it was difficult to listen to but You you have some insight into into this particular situation well

You do a fantastic job of demolishing the argument, but I feel bad calling in and interrupting you but when you're reviewing

I have our night hard time remembering this gentleman's name. His name is shit. Oh, well. Oh, well a w -a -l

Okay, it's not like a wall, right? No a w -a -l. Okay, so you didn't go a wall went after the baby's gonna go a wall

Well, when he said that Jesus prayed like me I had to chuckle because the passage

I quote As you had mentioned Jesus prayed Various ways. He didn't just pray at one certain way like right

But however, what's important is that the very passage you cite As an example of Jesus praying like a

Muslim And even quoted which is ironic because what I heard and mentioning he mentioned

Jesus saying Abba father Well, if Jesus is praying like a Muslim, then that means the

Quran must be corrupted because according to the Quran Jesus is not the Son of God. Allah was not his father and Muslims cannot address

Allah as their father So how in the world could Jesus be praying like a Muslim when he's addressing

God as his father? This is where I'm confused he's saying see he put in fact in the quote in one of the clips you you play

He says see he prays like me. So is this sheikh actually? Suggesting that when he prays he calls

Allah Abba father, which would be a Nesama according to the Quran I'm sure

I'm sure he's not saying that in any way shape or form actually Well, you know at one point during the the questions someone did ask

Someone recognized in the audience yet You know It seems like you're picking and choosing here because on on the one hand

You will quote from the Bible and you'll make an argument from the Bible But then on the other hand when any

Bible verse is used against you, you'll just assume that it's a corrupted it was written by Constantine in 325 or whatever else the excuse might be and His response was well,

I'm just using your stuff I'm just and so I would imagine he would would probably

End up having to say and I don't know maybe we'll get you know, Lord Will we get an opportunity to ask that question, but?

My my gut feeling is he would say well look I'm just pointing out that he prayed like you did

I'm not saying that this other stuff actually is what he said now how in the world you can pick and choose out of one sentence

What is historically accurate and and what isn't I I don't have any earthly idea, but it doesn't make any sense

I would say well the problem is since you appeal to it If it's good enough to prove your position, then it should be good enough to refute your position because you quoted it exactly

No question about it. I Agree a thousand percent, but as you well know we we

One of the greatest disadvantages that we're at in this situation is that to be followers of truth?

We have to be consistent in the methodologies of interpretation. We use not only of our own text, but likewise that of the

Quran They can use any standard they want They will demand one for the

Quran But then hey any interpretation of the Bible is fair game whether it's the

Jehovah's Witnesses the Mormons or or you know Some Gnostic nutcase in the fourth century.

It doesn't matter. That's all that's all fair game and Unfortunately a lot of people just don't

Don't catch on to that, but we have to keep emphasizing it anyways Yeah, there was only two more things.

I just want to come out real briefly because I don't want to interrupt your your fantastic Dissection of the debate and I praise

God that you do that because it helps us When we have to face the same objections, right? I did mention that in passing you said that the

Muslims have a problem with God praying and You commented from the Christian perspective It's the second person of the

Godhead the God man who as a man is the perfect man and as such worships the father perfectly

But what's ironic about that statement that objection by Muslim is that the Quran itself says that Allah prays?

The God of the Muslim prays according to the Quran, right? There are three specific verses in the

Quran and since you're studying Arabic I'll give you the verses ask your Arabic tutor to confirm what

I'm about to say In fact, I even have an article on this subject Allah worshipping. Who does he worship?

Well, the passages are and I'll just give them to you You can note them and I'll just maybe read one for the sake of time

Surah Al -Baqarah chapter 2 of the Quran verse 157 chapter 2 verse 157 chapter 33 of the

Quran the 33rd chapter verses 43 and 56 Chapter 33 verses 43 and 56 now in chapter 2 verse 157.

This is what it says There are those on whom are the prayers from their Lord and mercy the

Arabic word prayers is Salah watch one Well, we get the word Salah watch However, Muslim translators do not translate the

Arabic literally they translate it as blessing Mm -hmm ask the Arabic tutor to confirm this point.

Oh, I can I can I can read well enough to see it's a lot of there So that's a lot. Mm -hmm here.

It's saying that Allah's prayers are upon The faithful that's what it says

So if they have a problem with Jesus Christ our Lord praying to the father Which is no problem to us because we're

Trinitarian one eternal being Shared eternally by three distinct persons and these persons relate to each other communicate to one on one another etc

Then they should definitely have a prior a problem with their God praying because he's supposed to be unit uni -personal

Therefore who does he pray to when he prays for Muslim, right? Yeah, I mean,

I don't know. I'm trying to find a Korean answer. I haven't and my The other passage which is my favorite is 33 verse 56.

And if you have it there, you can see the Arabic Well, you know, you know me I I have my my all my really cool

Stuff sitting here and when you were here in Phoenix, I was throwing your stuff up there on the screen for you So, yes,

I have 33 I have 33 56 up right now And you see there it says barely now if you're reading a

Muslim translation says Allah and his angels Send blessings for the Prophet. However, you'll see the

Arabic word is you Saloon Allah and his angel pray for the Prophet you

Salona. Mm -hmm heavy. Oh you who believe pray for him follow and Salute him with a salutation.

So here this passage is saying to the Muslim see Allah himself and the angels are praying for Muhammad.

You should do the same Obviously when it says angels pray, we know that's literal They're actually praying and we know they're praying to Allah and it's obvious that when

Muslims pray They're also praying to Allah. Now. The question is who is Allah praying to when he prays for Muhammad?

Sam real quickly. I have not looked at Ibn Kathir or Any of the other

Tafsir literature on 33 56. Have you had a chance to do that? Oh, yeah, and my article

I even quote Ibn Kathir and other Muslims who actually affirm that Allah pray in fact in the

Ibn Kathir Commentary he narrates a tradition from Ibn Abbas and I have it right here. But see unfortunately in the

English They left this narration out because you you realize that the English Translation of Ibn Kathir is an abridgment of the

Arabic But since you have access to the Arabic again, you can see this for yourself. This is what he quotes

This is the narration in Ibn Kathir It says the people of Israel said to Moses does your

Lord pray his Lord called him saying Oh Moses They asked you if your

Lord pray say to them. Yes, I do pray and My angels upon my prophet and my messengers and quote and Allah then sent down on his messenger this passage

So then Kathir says that this passage was composed in direct response to the question does Allah pray and the answer is yes

And then this article on the website, which is the audience can find on our website I quote other

Muslim authorities to acknowledge. Yes, Allah prays and the word for prayer Doesn't have the same meaning as blessing barakah because that's what most

Muslims try to say Well, no here a lot or Salah mean blessing. No The word for blessing in Arabic is barakah and Muslim scholars say that the word for prayer is

Different and distinct for the word for blessing. They're not the same. So Muslims have admit

Allah does pray But again, who does he pray to dr. White? That would be the question

All right, so you had you said you had one other point and I'll leave you with this one that you keep saying that Well, you bring up a very excellent point to the

Muslim and you ask them a question Are you saying that Allah cannot enter his creation? Well, the obvious answer is no

We're not saying that because the Quran nowhere says that Allah can't do it But I won't actually give you passages to confirm that the

Quran agrees That Allah can enter time and space and assume various forms

For example in chapter 27 of the Quran verses 7 to 9 This is narrating the encounter between Moses and God and the burning bush

And exodus 3 says it's the angel of Yahweh Here Mohammed is narrating the same story in chapter 27 verses 7 to 9 and now notice what you're going to see in the text

When Moses said to his people I observe a fire and will bring you news of it Well, I'll bring you a flaming brand that happily you shall warm yourself now watch this

So when he came to he was called blessed is he who is in the fire and He was about it.

Glory be to God the Lord of all being Moses behold It is I God the Almighty the all -white. Did you catch birthday?

Dr. White? I did Translations I have says plural

Yeah, that's used to folly That's actually a distortion of the Arabic Arabic is blessed is he who is in the fire and he was about it

Now the question is who is in the fire? Well, it's a law because he's speaking right how in the world could

Allah fit himself in the fire? Right and still be God Well, the answer is obvious if he can appear as fire or in fire

Then why can't he appear as a man or become a man without ceasing to be God and Muslims don't have a good rational

Explanation nor do they have any chronic basis to deny that and then the final text for you

This is for you and your future debate not that you need it in chapter 19 of the Quran But if the medium chapter 19 verses 16 to 21

It's narrating the story of Mary and the virtual conception and birth of our Lord Jesus Christ It says in verse 17.

We sent unto her our spirit We'llかな not our angel use the folly again butchers the

Arabic because white chef Oh, well, he assumed that the spirit is angel Gabriel However, there's not a single verse in the entire

Quran that says the Holy Spirit the spirit is angel Gabriel That's the development of later

Islamic theology being read into the Quran now be that as it may Chapter 19 verse 17 as you see the

Arabic in front of you. It's a little Hana our spirit rule Mm -hmm, and he presented himself to her as a perfect man.

Here's my question If Allah spirit can assume human form and speak to Mary in the form of a man

To such an extent that she thought it was an actual human being in front of her because she tells the person

I seek refuge with Allah from thee if you are God -fearing. She had no clue. This was God's spirit She thought it was a man creeping up on her

Now if Allah spirit can assume human form human likeness appears a man and converse as a man to Mary Why can't

Allah? Are we to assume that the spirit has an ability that Allah himself lack? So what's the objection right?

That was it dr. White, all right, well, I can't wait for to hear to hear you Analyze the rest of the argument number.

Your name is the jogger not James Well, hopefully just providing some some good responses today

But I appreciate that that insight in those texts and I'm sure the the audience does does as well

So thank you for your call today. Thank you, brother. Keep your prayers. I got less. Okay, man All righty

I really enjoy Getting to listen to Sam speak. It has certainly helped me his his knowledge of the

Quran is is vast and that's that's an area where I really have a desire to Go much more in depth in the future.

That's that's really the area it's one of the reasons that I've mentioned that I hopefully will have some type of a

Announcement to make a little bit later this year about hopefully some time to be doing some writing and hopefully some time to get back into my

Islamic studies the way that I really feel that I need to because this material is very important and the information is out there, but you know,

I feel like a Guppy in the ocean when it comes to just the vastness of everything that that is there so much to learn

Unlike some folks I'm not going to call myself an expert on this subject I remain a student, but hopefully my studies have been of assistance to folks in the audience as well

Since we still have some time left and program. Let's Try to get through this opening statement as far as we possibly can with a shake a wall

In the on Calvary Cross someone was hung on the cross in Golgotha Someone was indeed hung on the cross, but that was not

Jesus so Allah said Those who are involved about the case of death of Jesus They don't have the exact knowledge of what happened to them why?

because They follow conjecture, guesswork, fiction.

They think that's what happened They were not there. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, none of them saw the crucifixion of Christ.

They were not there Because the book of Mark Chapter 14 verse 50 said during the most critical time of the life of Christ all his disciples

Forsook him and fled they ran away at the time that they came to arrest him Mark said during the most critical time of the life of Christ all his disciples

All means all none of them saw what happened Now again here this this is just a very invalid argument

The text that he's quoting Specifically say that the Apostle John was there at the foot of the cross that he saw the crucifixion

It is ignoring the fact that that what he's talking about is the abandonment of Jesus in the garden

But Peter then follows John follows and he just ignores that it just doesn't does not even mention

That reality how how can he do that? I I I do not understand how you can misrepresent the the text in in that way um

I was going to take a call and then we lost it and I guess we got back So, uh, i'll go ahead and and and take it and we'll just i'll have to do a lot of editing of the video

To put this together, but let's talk with real quickly with harold in in georgia. Hi harold

Hi, dr. White. How are you doing? Good? Hi, um, I was just going to give you a call about a uh an issue i've been speaking with a an atheist who um is

Essentially i've brought i've spoken to him to the point where i've demonstrated that there is no meaning in the universe whatsoever outside of the triune god of scripture and um, he sort of Accepts that and says

Okay And i'll just make up my own meaning And so I was just curious if you might have any um suggestions where to go with that I have a few ideas, but I just thought

I might throw that out there I know you're going to be speaking arguing you're going to be debating. Um, christopher hitchenss who takes certainly not that route but um, but this individual is so he's just sort of That's where he is.

Well, uh, I think the only the only answer to that question, uh is that you you are dealing with an individual uh who

Is creating the image of god and therefore they will not in any way shape or form live their life

Consistently with the conclusion they've come to at that point if he wants to say Well, yeah, you're right. There is there is no meaning.

It is all just uh noise and fury um The fact of matter is he will not live consistently with that conclusion

Uh, he knows in his heart of hearts that that's not the case He will decide issues make decisions based upon Uh transcendent values that he cannot ground in his own worldview

And so really it is a matter of of pressing upon him the inconsistency of his own lifestyle in his own life now,

I suppose if he's just an absolute dissolute sinner who Um, you know is constantly breaking the law and constantly self -destructive and everything else

And you might say well at least i'm living consistently with my uh in light of my worldview Uh, but but most people aren't quite in that situation

No, he's not. Um, I mean he goes to the same college that I do to do, uh down here in georgia and uh, basically

I've brought him to that point. I've tried to demonstrate. Okay, you're not living consistently with what you're saying um what he his general response is

Yeah, i'm not living consistently with the way it is but I am living consistently with the meaning that i'm making up for myself

In other words, you see i'm saying so he's saying well i'm i'm sort of inventing my own meaning and i'm well

I'm living according to that well, there comes a point and in in my experience, uh

Well, well quickly are we talking about a a young person in college? Yes, sir.

Um, i'm about 20 or so and he is too and where we both go to the same college That's sort of where we met.

Yeah, well, uh My my experience is that um, uh, you know, it's sort of like the sophomore syndrome

The first person you run into is taking their first philosophy class as a sophomore and they are now

Wiser than the ages themselves. Um, there is something called life that comes along and hits you upside the head and um, i've met many a christian who was

Uh in that same situation as a late teenager an early 20 something person who

Thought they had it all figured out and they realized now that they just didn't realize what the questions were and uh,

I think there are experiences in life, uh that Open up the heart and that that cause a person to recognize the reality of their own experience the holding of your first child

Things like that, uh that that start a maturity process that May be the only thing that will will help such a person.

Um, Really it it all comes down to again the work of the spirit in someone's heart

I I don't know that you can go past a certain point when you've pushed someone to to the point of absurdity if if the lord does not

Have mercy on them and by his spirit bring conviction of sin They can end up as a christopher hitchens, uh who gives so much evidence of the the gifts

Of god in his intellect in other areas, but is just so grossly inconsistent

In that particular area and I think there's reasons for that, uh that go into his past and so on so forth.

So uh, you know you you pray for the individual you you you testify the individual but I don't know that there's there's any way to argue that well

I know that there is no way to argue somebody into a confession that um, oh sure, you know that the spirit's not going to bring to them so um in many of those

In the situation you're dealing with if someone's gotten to the point of saying yeah, there's no meaning whatsoever.

I I think lord will in the next few years will uh What I would say to him is

I think as you experience life And as you experience your own inconsistency

Uh, you're going to see these things and I would just pray that when that happens if we are no longer uh in the same place that you'll know how to get hold of me and and uh,

If you want to know more about your creator that you'd be willing to get in touch with him Yeah, well, see he's claiming that um, he he uh, he's actually is living consistently somewhat with with his own creative meaning

He's just saying that the meaning that he gives to himself and makes up for himself Is um is just that it's just made up.

Yeah, but he's you you hold You hold your firstborn child in your arms and the idea that you are making up the meaning for this is just going to sound so utterly foolish um that it's that it's beyond absurd

Uh, that's when you find out that there there's there's a whole lot well beyond you um, you know

Again, I I can't I can't guarantee that the lord's going to be gracious in that way to open his eyes to those things but I think that that's

That that's the only the only hope for someone in that situation Well, i've been able to share a very great amount of um information about the christian faith has been very very inquisitive and uh, very amazed that a christian thinks and uh

Yeah, well if you listen if you listen to our society no one thinks that christians think so oh no, uh,

And and sadly let's face it. Yeah, you look around and look at how a lot of christians behave and talk and speak and I understand why they uh, they get away with that.

Uh, I do as well Uh, i'm, sorry I said I do as well. Yeah. Yeah, it's a shame But yes, sir.

Okay. All right. All right. Thanks harold. Thanks for going in. All right. God bless. All right. Goodbye All righty.

Yeah, I I can't do it anything as you can tell uh by the clarity of harold's call

Uh, that was one of our skype calls I'm gonna get a little bit more in here real quickly might uh, might want to hold the uh, the music

Uh, so I can get just a few more minutes in here Uh in my response to uh, shake a wall all

Fossil came and fled Where did they go? They went to opera room They went to a place called opera room.

That is where they used to meet and that's where the disciple went and hide None of them saw what happened in the cross. So the quran said

Those who are involved about his death They don't have the knowledge of what happened because mark said they all took him in flight um, but he didn't say that He said that in one context uh, and then he

Recognizes that peter, you know peter and john Why not let all of it speak? Why take that just one build an entire case on that and then ignore the rest of it that that's not how you handle anyone's text shake a wall has written some books i've i've

Tried to find out how to get hold of them They're not generally available But I would if I did would he appreciate if I interpreted his works the way he's interpreting the bible.

I don't think so They follow conjecture guesswork, that's what happened.

I think so. It's a that's why you find contradiction today The question is is the bible the word of god

I would have discussed that issue, but this is not the issue. I would have proved 100 percent that the bible have been mutilated mutilated beyond recognition

I would prove 100 percent that the bible has been mutilated beyond recognition

Now that is a debate topic that I would like to take up Shake a wall be glad to debate you on that one.

Uh Uh that there is there is some confidence there that uh, the facts will not back up It's been changed.

I have 28 bibles in my house I have 28 bibles in my house.

None is the same None is the same different none is the same.

In other words, they're different translations uh And again, I have all sorts of translations of the quran and none of the same

Is and he'll go. Oh, no, no, those just translations. You gotta go back to the arabic Okay, you gotta go back to the greek and hebrew

Same thing. Oh, we only have one arabic text. Well, that's to your loss But you have variations in your greek and hebrew that's because we actually have enough manuscripts to note them

Um your othmanic revision is not a good thing. It's a bad thing from a scholarly perspective and see we can go here

We can stand toe to toe Uh, and that's what we want to do. Uh in the service of the truth

The new version the standard version the mormon version the mormon version you mean the joseph smith translation

I I mean you'd really suggest that a polytheist Who who believes in more gods than than anyone in the ancient world that his version should be thrown in there?

As if it's relevant to the truthfulness of the bible seriously uh, wow

But it is not the same by god Because he left he left catholic and came to protest that meaning they have different bible

You should be ashamed of yourself You know Now it's getting a little bit nasty at that point he looked back at his opponent

You should be ashamed of yourself and and the people start laughing and and the audience did start participating.

They shouldn't have um But they were getting getting into it and uh,

I guess we'll just pick up at that point. Uh, in the Lord willing on tuesday as we continue listening to shake a wall providing a response hopefully

Helping you to gain in your confidence in being willing to share the gospel proclaim the gospel

To others in truth. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next tuesday We need a new reformation day

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