A Wide Ranging Mega-Sized Edition of the Dividing Line

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:35

And welcome to The Dividing Line on a Tuesday, well, it's actually the morning here in Phoenix.

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In fact, I think this is when it's actually supposed to be. That's when the schedule is. Yeah, that's pretty unusual.

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We move things around and suddenly it's like, oh, let's do it on time for once. Yeah, okay. All right. But I have a feeling it's probably going to go a little longer than normal.

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So we did a little Facebook poll yesterday and it was absolutely, positively, completely worthless.

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We had, I think last I looked, 266 people responded and the interest was completely across the board.

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I put up five issues, that's five things in my stack of stuff, my Limbaian stack of stuff, and every possible combination was suggested.

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You had the few whiners. I understand that there are whiners in the audience that go, oh,

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I don't want to hear anymore about Eric and Kater. But that was about the only whining that I got.

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And my suggestion to the whiners is stop whining. Thank you. Anyway, so we've got a lot of stuff to get to.

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And one of the things I do need to get to, because he has more time than I do, is I eventually do need to get to Bob Enyart's stuff.

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He has a daily talk program during the week anyways, weekdays. And so he gets more time.

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Of course, I can go as long as I want done with commercials. But I do want to get to that toward the end of the program.

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But let's get started with some national news. As you know, yesterday,

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President Obama signed an executive order to, quote, protect

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LGBT employees from federal workplace discrimination, which is another way of saying that the current regime, the imperial regime of Obama, once again, is utterly unconcerned about issues such as constitutionality, religious freedom, those types of things.

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This is the same regime that has our foreign embassies cramming homosexuality down the throats of nations that have no desire to have it crammed down their throats.

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And you know, we pray all the time for protection from evil leaders.

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And this is certainly one of the situations that comes to mind. The secular left, and I would identify

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President Obama as the secular Caesar. He sees himself as being able to rule and reign by divine fiat, well, not divine fiat, by secular fiat or something like that.

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Just sign the pen and everyone will do what I say. Doesn't matter how often the Supreme Court says, don't think so, doesn't matter.

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That's just simply how this particular regime behaves and thinks.

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And we're getting exactly the kind of leadership that, as a people, we deserve. We have spit in the face of God.

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We murder our unborn children. We celebrate ethical and sexual immorality.

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And so what do you expect? You are given the kinds of leaders that you expect, that you deserve.

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And so that's simply what we're facing. But what comes along with the secular

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Caesar image is something you need to understand. And I linked to this on, pretty sure on Twitter and I'm pretty sure on Facebook as well.

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Al Mohler linked to it and so you can probably find a number of places. It's at thefederalist .com

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and it's titled, What's Happening to Gordon College is Just the Beginning. If you've read it, you know that, in essence, what you have is the, well, the term is the pillaring of, well,

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I'll read a second. Gordon, like every other observant religious institution in the world, does not want to be forced to hire people that represent the opposite of what it stands for.

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For that, it's being pilloried in the press and persecuted by, apparently, every local public official who gets morally high from judging

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Gordon's beliefs. It has already lost a contract with a local town to manage its historic town hall. We've seen this, for example,

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I think we mentioned it on the program. Maybe I didn't. But in what happened, yeah,

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I'm pretty sure we did. Up in Canada, where they canceled a convention up there, a meeting that had been held there for quite some time, all because they discovered that one of the sponsors was

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Chick -fil -A. We need to understand that secularists don't care about being hypocrites.

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They don't care about being consistent. They don't care about other people's rights.

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They will trample all over everybody's rights. Only people who have a moral system that would call for them to be at all consistent would care about these things, and secularists do not have a worldview that is concerned about these things.

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And so, I even was contacted by someone on Twitter who lives up in this area, and this article didn't talk about it.

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But they've had to post special security around the president's home of Gordon College because of the threats from the secular left for daring to question the dogma of our society today.

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It's here. It's happening. And since we see it out there, we don't think it's going to happen to us, but it will.

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It will. And so, folks, save the programs to your hard drive, because I don't know how long we're going to be able to do these things.

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I really, really do not. I mean, we take advantage of it now. We try to speak the truth on a wide variety of subjects, but I have no earthly idea what

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I'm going to do, and we can no longer communicate with you, because this ministry primarily exists. We don't have a mailing list.

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We don't send out newsletters and begging letters and stuff like that. And that's one of the things that a lot of you like about us, is that we don't do that kind of thing.

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But what that means is, as soon as this opportunity that we have of communication with you is cut off, we disappear.

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That's it. There's no big pile of funding in the back that keeps these things going.

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So save to your SSD drives, even better, programs, because I don't know what's going to be available.

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I mean, what will be available will be the compromised Christianity that we are seeing all over the place.

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What you will be able to get are the Joel Osteens and the Fluffy Wuffy people. Fluffy Wuffy people, yes.

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The Fluffy Wuffy theology, which has no meaning and doesn't actually satisfy the regenerate soul anyways.

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But that's all there's going to be. And then we will understand biblical phraseology is like a famine in the land for the word of the

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Lord and things like that, because that is definitely what is coming our direction.

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And all of the discussions in scripture about the relationship of church and state are going to be coming right back to roost because Caesar, for quite some time, persecuted the church very, very strongly, despite what certain

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Notre Dame female scholars say. And Caesar cannot stand any challenge to his ultimacy.

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And that's what we're seeing in Gordon. That's what we're seeing as we saw up there in Canada. The secularist does not want debate.

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The secularist wants silence and absolute agreement. Bow the knee to the secular

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Caesar. That is what we're being told to do. And as Christians, we do not have that option.

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And Christians have never had that option. And we will not have that option any longer. And of course, the issue that the secular

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Caesar is attempting to cram down our throats is the issue of homosexuality.

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Some of you may have noticed this is dated July 11th.

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World Health Organization says all men who have sex with men should take anti -retroviral drugs.

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Warns of exploding epidemic of HIV among gay men. The World Health Organization has suggested for the first time, for the first time, that all men who have sex with men should take anti -retroviral medicine, warning that HIV infection rates amongst gay men are exploding around the world.

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In guidelines published Friday, it said that it, quote, strongly recommends men who have sex with men consider taking anti -retroviral medicines as an additional method of preventing

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HIV infection. End quote. Similar guidelines were issued by the U .S. in May. If this is so natural and a gift from God, why is it?

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Why does it do this? Why do you have to be taking anti -retroviral drugs? In fact, isn't it rather obvious that if you actually followed biblical morality and you waited to have sex until you get married and then you are faithful to your wife, you're not really going to have much of a problem, are you?

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No, no. But if you, if you're promiscuous and you act like the secular world would say you can act without any problems because you're just, you're just an animal and animals have sex with everything including rocks and trees.

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So why not? I mean, that's all we are, so let's, let's go for it. Even if you're not a homosexual, which is 97%, you're still going to be in danger of all sorts of diseases and difficulties and trials and tribulations.

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And if you actually follow a biblical morality, and I'm talking about a biblical morality, not the whacked out stuff that you find on the internet all the time.

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Well, there's all sorts of different views of marriage in the Bible. This is from people who are ignorant, deceived, deceptive, and do not actually study the

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Bible as a whole, only parts of it, and they play them off against each other. And we need to recognize that.

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But it does seem rather strange at the World Health Organization. If you engage in this behavior, take these incredibly expensive, lots of side effects, drugs, because the behavior you're engaged in is unnatural and it is deadly.

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Deadly. Yeah, well, there you go.

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I don't think the World Health Organization was trying to affirm what Romans 1 says, but they managed to pull it off.

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Anyways. By the way, I was contacted late last week.

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I was contacted late last week. There's a UPS truck outside, Rich, and I'm just sort of wondering if he's, where, where is, where is his phone?

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Yes, we have video cameras everywhere. We are the NSA. No, we're not.

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They're now listening to everything we say. I was contacted sometime late last week by someone in the media realm wanting to know if I would be willing to debate

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Matthew Vines on his radio program. Not Matthew Vines' radio program, this guy's radio program.

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And I'm like, well, obviously, yes. But have you talked to them about this yet?

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Well, we're working on it. I wrote back and said, I hate to tell you this, but chances are 99 .99998

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% that you will be turned down once you actually get through to somebody.

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And, of course, next day, get an email. Well, right about that. Folks, I've exhausted every means.

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I have sent emails to every address. I've used every bit of social media. Matthew Vines knows that he stands challenged.

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He knows he said he would do this before his book came out. But now that the book's out, cooler heads have prevailed, basically.

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And there are people, I'm absolutely convinced of this, Matthew Vines and his people know that he cannot survive a debate.

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Even though he's pretending in his Reformation project to train people on how to debate these issues and present this information and all the rest of that stuff, he knows, and his people may know better than he knows, that in a real debate with Michael Brown or myself, if he were to ever be so foolish as to take on Dr.

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Gagnon, any of us who have written in this area and debated in this area, the position would collapse.

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It would just completely come apart. He knows that. And so those of you who are looking for this debate, feel free to tell your liberal,

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Rachel -held, Evanite friends, we've tried. We've tried to arrange the debate.

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We've said, look, Matthew, if you feel like your lack of training in Greek and Hebrew and things like that, hey, talk to Dr.

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Brownson. Get him involved. You're dependent upon his information. You're just repeating his information anyways.

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So let's put this together. Not going to happen. Not going to happen. As normal, the side that wants to overturn

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Biblical truth wants monologues, not dialogues. Now, they'll do dialogues when they feel that they can have enough of an advantage to not really be forced to deal with the issues the way they need to do so.

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But in this situation, they know better. And so Matthew Vine says and his people have declined every form of contact.

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He won't even respond to me. I mean, I've sent personal emails. I've sent them through multiple different sources.

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Won't even respond. Won't even respond. Not even a not interested. So there you go.

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We've tried, and we'll continue to put the challenge out there. You need to let your friends who think that he's just a cat's meow, let them know.

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Well, you know, he talks good talk, but he won't debate anybody who can actually expose him. And you saw what happened.

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And, again, I know it's called the debate between Michael Brown and Matthew Vines, but Michael will tell you and I'll tell you.

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That wasn't long enough and was not a proper format for serious scholarly debate.

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Michael's done a lot of debates. I've done a lot of debates. And we know the difference between a brief radio program, especially

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Michael, because he does it every day, and a real serious scholarly debate.

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So, you know, we've tried. We will continue to try. But the pressure needs to be put on by you folks, because we've said everything we can say.

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We've laid it straight out there. We've challenged him. He won't do it. He won't even have the kindness to explain why.

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And, therefore, I think I am in perfect position and have every perfect right to say the reason is very clear.

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He knows his position is indefensible. He knows it can only survive when it's a monologue, when it's in the context of the friendly media throwing softballs.

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Remember what happened when Barry Lynn, who had been on, you know, all sorts of programs, even with Jerry Falwell and people like that, when he actually had to do a debate rather than doing a segment on Fox News or something like that?

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What happened to him? He collapsed into a puddle of goo. And that's what happens.

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How many times have we seen this happen? Over and over and over again. A person can sound real good.

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It's a biblical concept. Remember Proverbs 18? The one who speaks first sounds right until his neighbor comes along and examines him.

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I didn't even understand that, the first number of debates that I did. It was not for a while until I really began to recognize that it's the cross -examination where the debate really takes place, and that's where you really find out what's going on.

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Some of you noticed some changes here in the studio. Yes. Got a new desk, got a new table here, and it's much prettier than the last one.

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I can actually stick my feet out, even though I am feeling a bunch of cables down there that I'm concerned about. Well, we're going to let you get comfortable, get things where you want them to be, before we start actually nailing things down.

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If I put mic stands in place, and I start tethering wires, and then suddenly you move something, trust me, by that point it will be unmovable.

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Immovable, I believe is the word. So I want to make sure that we get it all sorted away.

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Good, good, good. But I think the police will be coming later. The police will be coming later?

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Yeah, to arrest me for what I paid for that table. Oh, yeah, you stole it. Yeah, I understand you got it.

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You said you saw this very table on Fox News. On Fox News. On Fox News.

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Yes. One of their sets. Would you have gotten it if you had seen it on MSNBC?

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I'll have to think about that. That's the question.

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Okay, folks. Just briefly, especially for the whiners.

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Just briefly, a reminder that this coming Sunday, Eric McCann is speaking at First Baptist Church, Woodstock, as Horatio, our caller from Georgia, reminded us.

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My understanding is that there is a protest Facebook page. I had nothing to do with that.

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Let me just mention something. If you're planning on going to First Baptist Church, Woodstock, here's my recommendations to you.

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Pray before you go. Bring an MP3 recorder. Sit respectfully.

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Pray that the service, despite the situation, will be used of God. Do not do anything that would disrupt the service in any way, shape, or form.

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Obviously, my prayer is that the only good thing that could happen here, the only good thing that could happen here, is if Eric McCann gets up and he says,

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Yes, folks, I have lived a lie for 13 years, and today

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I'm going to start telling the truth. And he openly admits, yes,

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I claimed to speak Arabic. I don't speak Arabic. I claim to be taught and trained in jihad and madrasas in numerous various Near Eastern cities and countries, so on and so forth.

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I wasn't. I claimed that my father brought multiple wives with him to the

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United States. He did not. I claimed to have done debates in mosques, and I claimed to have debated people

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I've never even met. And I didn't do any of these debates. I made it all up.

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I'm sorry. I did really turn my life over to Jesus when

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I was in high school, but then I got caught up in a theological system that taught me that my testimony wasn't good enough.

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And I gave in. And I'm sorry. And I'm sorry to all of those Muslims that I have offended.

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I'm sorry to all those ex -Muslims that I have brought shame and disrepute upon their testimonies.

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I am sorry to all those that I have attacked and sent my minions to attack for daring to point out the truth.

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Will you forgive me? That's the only good thing that could come out of this.

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And could that happen? Hey, nothing's too big for God.

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God could do anything. God could break that man's heart. That'd be wonderful. Is that what

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I think's going to happen? No. If you want to know what my prediction would be,

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I have a feeling. I mean, we've heard enough

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Arrogant Cantor sermons to understand the process. You know, you tell some stories about how much

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Arrogant likes the senior pastor, and then you eventually get around to reading a verse, and then you very loosely tell stories that illustrate some point you want to make on that verse, and then finish up with the standard stories and the emotional stuff, and that's how it works.

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Will he be at his best game, given that this is a megachurch?

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I would imagine so. Will he be aware of the fact there's a lot of folks who are going to be listening very carefully to everything he has to say?

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I would imagine so. But if you're going to go, pray for the man's repentance.

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It's the only reason for you to be there. Make sure that what he says is open for the whole world to know, for the whole world to examine.

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But pray for the man's repentance. Do not do anything. Do not approach the man afterwards, and no yelling out, what is

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Hadith 2425, because you and I both know he can't answer that question, and neither can

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Norman Geisler. But honor the fact that there are serious and concerned believers in that church that are not happy that he's there.

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Keep that in mind. Keep that in mind as well. So I'll certainly be interested in hearing what happens this coming weekend at First Baptist Church Woodstock.

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We have been observing, speaking of issues relating to Islam, we have been observing the end of Christianity in Iraq.

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I was no prophet in 2001, 2002. I had not started studying

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Islam. I'd like to be able to say that if I had,

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I would have seen this coming, but I can't tell you that. Christianity is basically dead in Iraq, and it would not have been but for the

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United States of America. It's just a fact. Unintended consequence? Certainly.

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Certainly, but one of abject ignorance, and a complete misunderstanding of the most radical forms of Islamic thought on the part of secular

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Westerners. No question about that. What we're seeing right now with ISIS in Iraq and Syria, isn't it amazing, by the way?

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I was just pondering the incredible hypocrisy of Western media. Their response to what's going on with Israel cleaning out tunnels in Gaza in comparison to Syria.

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They don't care about civilian deaths. There's been 150 ,000 of them in Syria, and it's barely a footnote.

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But you have, and of course, anybody that dies in Gaza is a civilian. Hamas doesn't actually have people with guns, right?

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Amazing. Anyway, just the hypocrisy meter, the needle's been pegged on that.

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But you look at ISIS, you look at Boko Haram, and what you see is a shocking level of depravity being exercised by people who are identified by the world as religious.

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Now, as Christians, we look at these men, and we recognize that they are giving vent to the deepest, darkest desires of the sinful human heart, and the great perversity is that they are using religion as an excuse for doing this.

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And we've seen it before. We've seen it before. We've seen Christians do the same thing.

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The reality is that, though there are some, and we're going to talk about somebody here in a moment, who tries to turn the

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Crusades into holy wars, the reality is the Crusaders were bored people who used religion as an excuse to express their violence, and far too often, their sexual depravity.

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The rape that ISIS and Boko Haram engage in, can they point to Hadith sources?

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Can they point to sources in Muhammad's life where very similar things took place?

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Yeah, that's one of the problems with the sources of Islam, is you can't. Can't do that with Jesus.

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No, no, can't. No, not there. Fundamental difference. But what we see,

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I can't even understand how someone who's not thoroughly biblically reformed can look at the, and I've seen some tough videos that you can see about what

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ISIS, and I've seen heads cut off, and I've seen people shot in the head, and you see these things, and how can you understand that if you don't have a biblical understanding of total depravity?

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I don't understand it. I mean, it must really be rough for Wesleyans, who think there's some spark of good in there.

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No, not in those folks. And yet, of course, at the same time, we all know the only message that can stop those people is a message that changes the heart.

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And may I suggest that one of the real problems with a lot of the missions, efforts that have been made in regards to Islam, is we have presented a weak

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Jesus to the Muslim people. The Jesus with the long flowing hair, carrying the little lamb in his arms.

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There's everything good about speaking about the love of God, but that loving God is also king and ruler.

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And I have said many, many times, I have seen the Muslim think much more clearly, in a much more focused way, when you begin with the fact that Jesus Christ is

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Lord of all. And once you recognize who he is, then his love and his condescension is an amazing thing.

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But if you don't get the balance right, it's going to cause a problem.

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It's going to cause a problem. So, I have a challenge for my non -violent

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Muslim friends who find what ISIS and Boko Haram and groups like them, isn't it amazing when

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Al Qaeda is now the old news, the old boring guard? I have a challenge for my non -radical

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Muslim friends. What is there inherently in the orthodox

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Muslim confession that is contrary to these men's actions? I'm not talking about a complex argument that says, well, what's really going on here is that we need to recognize that over the years there's been certain jurisprudence that has developed.

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So these guys are not following this particular school or something like that.

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No, these people are depraved, demonic men. I mean, if you believe in Shaitan, these people breathe his breath.

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They're murderers, rapists. They are vile and they are giving expression to it.

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Not that they're cowards. They always have those things over their faces. God knows.

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But what is there inherently in the orthodox

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Muslim confession that's contrary to these men's actions? I'd like to suggest something to you to think about.

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And I believe that it would be borne out with observation over time.

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And it goes back to what Shabir Ali and I debated about in the mosque in Erasmia last year.

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One of my primary arguments was that Islamic soteriology, doctrine of salvation, which is not the primary emphasis of most

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Islamic thinkers. I recognize that. Islamic soteriology disassociates the holy nature of God from his law.

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This is necessary in the Islamic perspective because God, Allah, can forgive without his law being fulfilled, honored, or in any way justified.

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It's one of the main arguments that Muslims make is that we don't need an atonement. We don't need a cross.

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We don't need any of that. God can just simply forgive. And what that means is God's holy nature is not connected in an intimate and consistent fashion with his behavior amongst his creatures in time.

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The necessity of atonement in the scriptures, in the scriptures that long preexisted the

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Quran, and this is one of the important issues. This is why I've emphasized so many times. What did the author of the

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Quran really understand of the Bible? And given the misrepresentations, given that there is such a huge contrast between the relationship of the

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Old and New Testament, the New Testament writers know the Old. They quote from it.

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They deal with it. They even recognize when there are textual variants between the traditions, Hebrew and Greek, and sometimes even quote the

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Greek. That's how intimate their knowledge is. None of that for the Quran. The author of the Quran has no firsthand knowledge of either the

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Old and New Testaments. There is great ignorance, which there would not be if God were the author.

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And one of the results then of that is found here.

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And that is the author does not recognize that in the biblical materials, in biblical teaching, there is this perfect unity between God's law and God's actions.

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And that's what necessitates atonement. God is demonstrating

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His wrath and His power and His goodness and His loving kindness and His grace.

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He's demonstrating all of this. And if you just simply have God winking at sin, if you just simply have

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God doing what, well, I've told the story many, many times, but that story in the

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Hadith that is repeated numerous times about the man who killed 99 people, then kills 100, and yet Allah ushers him into paradise just because he was going to find out about repentance.

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No atonement. One hundred times God's law concerning life and death violated, he goes to paradise.

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The author of the Quran doesn't understand that would be utterly outside of the biblical mindset.

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And so the disassociation of salvation from God's character, from God's very essence, the fundamental problem, satirologically speaking, with Islamic theology and teaching.

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And I suggest to you that we see the result of this in the hesitancy.

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Now, I did see Shabir Ali post a video saying that what these men,

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Boko Haram and ISIS were doing, is un -Islamic. And you've got to understand, we might sit back and go, well, that ain't much.

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Trust me. That puts him in a hot seat. Puts him in a hot seat.

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But the reason there are so few who are even willing to go that far,

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I believe, is due to a fundamental theological issue with Islam. And I would invite you to think about it and to consider it.

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Sort of following, sort of following, there's actually a connection here.

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It may be somewhat artificial, but I am trying to make somewhat of a connection. We've talked a little bit about Erdogan -Kanner, and then we use the connection there to Islam and ISIS and some theological ruminations regarding satirology and Islam, which you're not going to hear many people talking about today, unfortunately.

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But I don't remember the first time. Actually, I do.

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Somewhere around, I think it was around 2008. I'm guessing here.

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Don't ever hold me to specific dates from the recent past anymore.

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I'm past 50, so you can't do that anymore. I heard of Waleed Shobhat.

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And I didn't really, you know,

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I just heard vague things about former Muslim, convert to Christianity, you know, saw some clips, but nothing really in -depth until,

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I forget when it was. I think I went back and looked, and somewhere around 2010, I think there is an article on our website, maybe somebody can look it up, where he was making a claim at a church about Arabic and like the name of a law appearing in Codex Vaticanus in the

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Book of Revelation. And I'm like, okay, that's weird.

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It's weird for one really obvious reason, and that is there is no Codex Vaticanus in the Book of Revelation.

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Codex Vaticanus ends at Hebrews 9 .14, so it doesn't contain the Book of Revelation. And what is in the

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Codex is a much later, like 10th century manuscript. It's not even close to the same script and stuff like that.

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So, what, did you find it? Oh, I saw something sneaking onto the screen there.

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On remaining sound in Islamic apologetics. No, they can't see that. Only you can see that. Only I can see that?

40:24

Yes, but I can put it up if you want. Oh, well, what's the date on it? Give us the date.

40:32

December 4th, 2009. I was pretty close to 2010. In fact, that's within the margin.

40:37

Dan Wallace posted a very interesting article responding to this video wherein Wally Chubot… Okay, we don't need to read all of it.

40:44

So, December of 2009, you'll find the article where… December 4th. December 4th. I responded to this strange stuff.

40:53

And so, that made me go, okay, well, here's somebody, you know, maybe doesn't check their facts real well, you know, stuff like that.

40:59

There have been a couple times that I was close to being on the same speaking topic or something with him and it just never happened.

41:17

And so, to make a long story short, I went to church on Sunday.

41:23

I preached last Sunday, both services, and this Sunday, both services. And thanks,

41:31

Jason. Jason just asked if I'm going the way of President Heller. Thank you very much. Appreciate that.

41:40

And I do, however, think that in light of what's happened with Russia, that one of the things they have to do, they have to now, is to give

41:50

Jack back. I think that's the first step toward world peace is giving Jack back.

41:59

Anyway, see what happens. I've got the channel right here now and the camera's right there. And so, it's probably bad.

42:06

But anyway, what was I talking about? I got to church and I'm preaching.

42:13

So, I'm in the office before we go in and I look at the desk and here's this letter for me. Now, can

42:18

I mention something? Please do not send things to the

42:26

Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. And please do not call and leave messages at the

42:32

Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. That is not how to get hold of me. That is not how to get around my firewall.

42:39

Firewall, could you say hello? Thank you. That's not how you get around the firewall.

42:45

I don't think I've ever responded to anyone who's left a message on the old magnetic tape version answering machine at PRBC.

42:58

Do not do that. It's real easy to find this ministry. And all you've got to do is...

43:06

Well, the problem is it's not that easy to get through to... I've got to convince the firewall that you need to talk to me.

43:12

I need to talk to James White. Why do you need to talk to James White? Because I need to talk to James White.

43:18

How can I help you? You can get me James White. I get that.

43:25

So, just don't do that. In fact, this is the only time I can think of. Maybe I have some time.

43:32

But here's this letter. So, I open it up and I read it. And I actually responded to it.

43:38

It may be the only time I've ever done it. But it actually was interesting enough for me to do so.

43:45

And it was talking about Waleed Shobab. And it was basically saying, you know,

43:52

I've found him to be a good source of information, et cetera, et cetera. But he's become a

43:58

Roman Catholic and he's saying all these things about the history of the church I don't know how to respond. And I'm like...

44:03

Because I know back in 2009 when

44:09

I watched the stuff that I did then, he wasn't in Roman Catholic churches.

44:15

He was in some odd churches. But they weren't Roman Catholic churches. And so,

44:22

I get back and I, you know, I consult the

44:28

Oracle of All Knowledge called Google. And immediately a number of articles pop up that make me go, wow.

44:38

And so, I contacted the other Oracle of All Knowledge of things

44:44

Islamic. And that was Sam Shamoon. And this was news to Sam too, but he did the same thing

44:51

I did. And he's like, wow, there's some weird stuff coming from this guy.

44:56

And I'm like, yeah, yeah. One of them that I encountered is from June 12, 2013.

45:05

By Waleed, so this is him directly. Called Them Damned Catholics.

45:11

That's what it says, Them Damned Catholics. I'd like to read it to you.

45:17

It's fairly long actually. It's going to take a little while. But just make some comments on the way. And this will...

45:24

A lot of the stuff that I've seen, looking through some stuff since yesterday, really concerns me. It sort of sounds like he is promoting the idea of Christian jihad,

45:34

Christian militarism, crusades, that kind of stuff.

45:41

Just some pretty odd stuff. But here's a... Let's dive into it.

45:46

Throughout the church's history, it has warred with Islam. The church's history.

45:52

Yet, it has nothing to offer us today. This is a typical answer I get when I discuss Christian history with many evangelicals.

46:00

They tell me that beyond the Bible, there is nothing else we need. So next time you have a fire in the house, read the

46:05

Bible. Don't forget to pray while you forget dialing 911 and enjoy the smoke and fire billowing inside the house. Okay, now immediately, there is some serious imbalance here and some seriously bad argumentation.

46:20

To believe in Sola Scriptura does not mean that you have to be ignorant of church history. All through this,

46:27

I will see no evidence that Mr. Schobat really understands the issues in regards to the

46:36

Reformation, in regards to Sola Scriptura, Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, none of that stuff.

46:42

What you hear here is almost a Tim Staples -esque Roman argumentation.

46:52

Very imbalanced, very inaccurate. So, when you caricature

47:00

Sola Scriptura as they tell me that beyond the Bible, there is nothing else we need, so next time you have a fire in the house, don't call 911, is of course an absurdity and has nothing to do with Sola Scriptura.

47:13

I find it difficult to even ask questions. What was Christian history like that withstood Islam's evil and defeated it in Europe?

47:22

There was a lot of Christian history before Islam, actually. A lot of Christian history.

47:29

Why and how did Christendom lose Egypt and Asia Minor to Islam? And what are we doing in our days to...

47:38

Very naive, very naive. Anyone who has the answer, please step forward.

47:46

Well, nice to meet you. What do most spirit -filled evangelicals know about the

47:52

Battle of Lepanto, the Battle of Tours, the Battle of Vienna, and the Battle of Malta? What would they need to know?

48:01

I mean, outside of a good thing to know something about, there are some evangelicals that believe things like that.

48:09

I'm not a premillennialist, and I'm not in that camp of eschatology, and you don't seem to realize there are any other camps of eschatology,

48:21

Waleed. Battles there were in history.

48:27

Careful! They were too busy doing

48:33

Bible studies on how them... I'm going to go to darned Catholics. Those darned

48:39

Catholics were the Antichrist. Yeah, that's all the Reformation was doing. That's all they were talking about.

48:47

Like I said, this is more of a Tim Staples view of history. Perhaps I need to exercise the typical American habit before speaking about such matters and prequalify my statements.

48:56

I am not saying that all Protestants are evil, heavens know, yet every time I say the word Catholic, and the whole church jumps up and down, pinpointing the leaven of the

49:02

Catholics, not even looking into the piles of dung worth of heretical books produced by so -called evangelicals.

49:09

Really, Waleed? No one ever says anything about the silliness on TVN and stuff like that?

49:18

I have. And I bet you've never seen responsible replies to Rome focused upon actually studying

49:29

Roman theology and dogmatic statements. I'd suggest maybe you watch my debates with Mitch Pacwa and see if maybe there's something you've missed, because I think there is something you've missed.

49:44

Is the rich Catholic history such an evil subject that the Bible warned us not to touch and even beat down on the

49:49

Catholic wars with Islam? Even during Nazism, there were many more of these darned Catholics than chose to die in Hitler's ovens than there were evangelicals and Protestants put together.

50:00

Are these Catholics darned to hell, despite making a choice to enter Hitler's furnace? Waleed, how you die does not determine where you go.

50:13

It sounds like you are making your actions what determines your eternal destiny rather than the work of Jesus Christ.

50:27

Worries me a lot. Worries me a lot. Especially this line.

50:38

Which of the two is more pleasing to God? The sodomite loving pastor or the

50:45

Jew loving Catholic who died in the infernos of Hitler's crematoria? Answer, neither,

50:52

Waleed, neither. All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags,

51:00

Waleed. That's the whole point. The reason you evangelize Roman Catholics is they've been given a false gospel.

51:08

And reading that, I'm wondering if you have been too. Do you think that the

51:15

Jew loving Catholic who dies under Hitler, that that removes their sins?

51:27

Then he has a real weird segment here that I don't even understand it.

51:34

He's got a picture of some spiky -haired, nose -pierced, ear -ringed, mocking, useless, teenage -brained heretic from the free grace movement.

51:49

I don't even follow it, so I'm not even going to bother. Must I denounce the

51:56

Pope as a heretic while I remain silent on America's pastor? Oh, he's speaking of Rick Warren here. This self -appointed son of the devil

52:04

Pope named Rick Warren. There goes your

52:10

Camelback gig! Who signs a treaty with Islam saying we worship the same

52:16

God. Dare I say anything on that? I'm not even going to continue that. Who pussy -foots with homosexuality while he condemns the

52:23

Crusaders in that very treaty. He does not like Rick Warren at all.

52:31

Now, I'm no Rick Warren fan by any stretch of the imagination. I ran across an article yesterday from like two years ago where he was doing the

52:41

Joel Osteen thing on homosexuality. But this is not even under control.

52:50

But in answer to your question, Waleed, yes, you do denounce the

52:56

Pope as a heretic because he takes the names of the Trinity upon himself.

53:01

And what Rick Warren does is irrelevant to that. Logically speaking, right?

53:10

He claims to speak infallibly for God and leads men to a false gospel.

53:20

So yeah, what Rick Warren does is irrelevant to the necessity of recognizing the fundamental evil of the papacy.

53:30

There's so much more here. And I still have time. I mean, it goes on for quite some time.

53:40

But Waleed does say later towards the bottom, I reject all doctrines that differ with the

53:46

Bible. Really? How about the papacy? How about Mary as Mediatrix and advocate for the people of God or just the bodily assumption and immaculate conception?

54:03

How about priests and masses? And we can go on and on.

54:12

I reject all doctrines that differ with the Bible, but for centuries, holy Protestants have pointed to several popes as Antichrist, which have all turned out to be false.

54:22

Maybe your understanding of eschatology is what's false. Maybe you were wrong to think that there is one

54:31

Antichrist. Did you notice that the term in the New Testament, the term Antichrist is actually in the plural and it says they've already come,

54:38

Antichristoi. Is this not unholy slander?

54:47

Did Jesus not warn about such darned slanderers? Well, anyway,

54:54

Walid is obviously, makes me look calm, cool, and collected in Scottish in what he says, but man, his factual knowledge is really, really bad.

55:14

So, if you have been following Walid Shabbat, be aware that there are some issues.

55:26

There are some serious issues to look at. All right? Okay, that took the first hour.

55:34

And now, you know what we've not done? We have not never done, have we done,

55:41

I think once we did a commercial break, didn't we? We did a commercial break one time, didn't we? And you went back to the red screen, didn't you?

55:52

Well, actually, I think the first John Sampson show, I actually brought up the shopping cart and put that up on the screen for each of the books as it was going through the different spots.

56:04

Wow, you haven't done that for me. Yeah, of course, I'm not exactly prepared to do that.

56:10

It's been so long we've done an ad, I'm not sure if I know where to find them. Well, if we're going long,

56:19

I can just reach over here right on camera and grab my lemonade.

56:31

That's refreshing. And that's called a commercial break. There you go.

56:40

You go long, hey, the one nice thing about regular radio is you get regular breaks.

56:49

We don't do it that way. Although I understand you have to hurry if you have to do anything during regular breaks.

56:55

That's true. When I was radio announcer, though, I did have potty songs.

57:02

And everybody knew what the potty songs were. And generally, Guy Lombardo would do these medleys, and they'd be about 7 1⁄2 minutes long.

57:10

And that was plenty of time. You'd just get Guy Lombardo out, and you could almost always tell when certain songs were playing that there was nobody in the studio.

57:19

Except once one of those songs started skipping. Uh -oh. And I could hear it, and that was bad.

57:27

This is the days of records. Yes. LPs. Huh? Oh, yes.

57:32

The black things that people are talking about. Or as my daughter said when I first showed her the word, what's vinyl?

57:40

Yeah, vinyl. Vinyl. They're made out of vinyl. Yep. Ha ha. Oh, yeah.

57:47

So there you go. All right. Launching off into the final topic of the day, which will take us for quite some time.

57:56

I'm not sure how long I'll go here, but we could do mega today. Who knows? We'll see how it goes.

58:05

I sort of feel like I need to get to at least some of this today, because in two hours from now, Bob Enyart will be back on the air.

58:13

And if Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday of last week was any indication, his audience in the

58:23

Colorado area is going to be in for more massive spin and damage control than...

58:33

I'm concerned some people will become so dizzy from the spin that they might drive off the road.

58:39

I mean, there could be a public nuisance here, because you want the no spin zone?

58:46

This was the spin everything zone. I was traveling on Monday and Tuesday of last week.

58:54

I drove from Colorado on Monday to Santa Fe and then from Santa Fe home on Tuesday.

59:04

And so I was unable to... I didn't even know about the programs.

59:11

And then once you get home, you got so much stuff to catch up on. It was late last week. I think it was Friday, Thursday or Friday, before I started hearing from people, have you heard what

59:21

Bob Enyart has been saying? And I'm like, no, no. I'm just trying to catch up with so much stuff.

59:28

So I, on Friday night, downloaded the three programs that have been posted at that point.

59:37

I believe it was Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. And listened to them on a ride on Saturday morning.

59:46

I was absolutely amazed. I've had opponents in the past go into severe damage control mode, but never quite like this.

01:00:00

Never quite like this. And I guess with what I've learned since the debate,

01:00:07

I shouldn't be overly surprised. I don't know what his connection to the

01:00:14

JonBenet Ramsey stuff was. All I know is he raised money and bought

01:00:20

OJ Simpson stuff and burned it. And I guess he's got quite an interesting history that I was unaware of before the debate.

01:00:31

All I was concerned about for the debate was, what does he teach on open theism? And who has he debated?

01:00:40

And what's the best way to engage this particular subject? By the way, this debate came about because a fellow by the name of Dale came into our chat channel one evening and PMs me, personal messages me, and says, have you ever declined a debate to challenge

01:01:07

Bob Enyar? I knew the name. Some people, I don't remember who they were, over the years,

01:01:13

I've gone up to Denver a number of times to speak at various churches and conferences and stuff like that, and a number of times his name has come up as someone to be on the program or debate on various sundry things.

01:01:25

He's really opposed to Calvinism. I had the general recognition that he was an open theist of some kind.

01:01:35

And so I'm like, no, I've never declined a challenge to debate Bob Enyar.

01:01:41

And I said, in fact, we hadn't been able to arrange another debate that we'd like to take place up in the

01:01:50

Denver area. And I said, hey,

01:01:57

I'm going up to Denver, well, Denver area, Evergreen's half an hour outside, but I'm going up in that area, and I'm going to be training during the days, but I've got the evenings open, and here are the evenings

01:02:11

I'd be available. And so if there's some interest, great, fine.

01:02:18

And lo and behold, there was, and the debate was put together. That's where it came from. So I thought the debate was very interesting, and I gave a report on it, the next dividing line that I did live from my friend

01:02:36

Alan's home up there in Colorado. And we played some segments from the radio program where he wasn't there, where some of his followers made some comments.

01:02:46

And basically all I did was use that as an opportunity to do a little teaching on Philippians chapter two and the nature of kenosis, which is not getting rid of something, but taking on something, and taking on that human nature, and that's a very important issue.

01:03:08

So with all of that, I was not prepared for the amount of dishonesty, misrepresentation, and everything else that flowed from Bob Enyart's mouth over those three days.

01:03:24

I was amazed. Maybe it was worse that I heard all of it in one single run without a break in between, but it was pretty bad, including accusations of heresy.

01:03:37

I'm the heretic. I've become the heretic. And then we all have come to...

01:03:44

Let's see if everybody else agrees with this because Rich mentioned this to me as I was playing this.

01:03:53

You got the sound up? Here's... I think this happened six times in the three days.

01:04:02

Let's listen to this. He started out the debate saying I'm misrepresented. James White is the most misrepresented man in America.

01:04:10

James White is the Rodney King of theology. Can't we just all understand what I'm saying? Now, some people feel that he didn't mean

01:04:21

Rodney King, that he meant Rodney Dangerfield, right? But when he says, can't we all just understand what

01:04:28

I'm saying, it sounds like, can't we all just get along? I think he conflated. It may be. Yeah, because it didn't really fit.

01:04:35

No. But this was clearly written down, and he repeated it, by my count, six times in three days.

01:04:44

Now, that's childish, especially when the issue is

01:04:51

Bob Enyart's own ignorance of systematic theology. So, if I point out that Bob Enyart does not understand what he's critiquing, then that's a slam on me.

01:05:05

It makes no sense. But it's very childish. There's all sorts of ad hominem, and all sorts of this kind of argumentation.

01:05:13

And, you know, I talked with Bob briefly. He actually followed me out as I was leaving.

01:05:20

And he talked about how, you know, you've done so many debates, and I just haven't done that many debates and stuff like that.

01:05:26

And at the time, I was thinking to myself, is this the same guy that I've heard in all the stuff I was listening to talk about how he's been debating

01:05:32

Calvinist for 30 years? How do you put those two together? And he says, you know, I wasn't on the top of my game.

01:05:38

You know, I'm about 12 years past my prime, and my memory's not the way it was. And they did have a number of problems during the debate.

01:05:45

You don't hear it when they play it, because they fixed it. They've reinserted what they didn't get to play, so it sounds like it was seamless in the replay, but it wasn't in the actual debate.

01:05:59

And hopefully we will get raw footage so that we can actually put the debate up.

01:06:04

I was told that the data files will be copied off onto a

01:06:10

Blu -ray disc and sent to me in complete form.

01:06:15

Good. Hope so. Hopefully they won't be edited. But anyway, the entire attitude of these three programs, so different from what actually happened.

01:06:33

I mean, I knew that there would be damage control. I knew there would be spin.

01:06:39

And I'm not overly surprised that he's now declaring himself the victor. He won this debate. I've got a whole line of people after the debate talking to me, and everyone was like, well, that was...

01:06:51

almost feeling sorry for him. But now he's won. What a difference one week can make.

01:06:59

We were victorious. We won, and here's how we won. I wasn't all that surprised by that, because when he did his written debate with Dr.

01:07:09

Lamerson from Knox Seminary, he had the last word. I sort of guess that's what these programs are.

01:07:17

And his submission, his written submission, that was so embarrassing. So embarrassing.

01:07:24

It was so arrogant and written in a style of,

01:07:31

I'm the victor, and since he wouldn't answer these questions, I'll answer for him in his words, and he puts words into Dr.

01:07:36

Lamerson's words. It was horrible. It was childish and immature. It was...

01:07:42

Read it for yourself. It's available online. Track it down. Read it for yourself. I mean, it's like 250 pages, he says.

01:07:48

I don't know. I listened to it, so it was a little bit easier to do that way. But it was bad. So I wasn't overly surprised by this.

01:07:56

But at the very least, what will be useful in working through this, aside from the picture it gives us into the mind of,

01:08:05

I truly believe, cultism, is the issue of the

01:08:13

Christology. I said in the debate, I believe Bob Enyart has serious Christological errors, and that came out very clear in this.

01:08:22

He makes the accusation against me, fine, make it. I'll refute it. And I think

01:08:28

Bob Enyart knows that he could never defend his assertions if we were to get back together again, especially given now knowing where he's coming from.

01:08:41

So let's dive into this. I'm playing it a little fast, 1 .2. Get through it quicker that way.

01:08:48

But let's just work through as much as we can get through today.

01:08:53

With one of the nation's most popular best -selling authors, James White. By the way,

01:08:59

I've never had a best -selling book. I don't have the money to have a best -selling book. I don't write on topics that could ever be best -selling books.

01:09:07

Don't know where that came from, but I've never claimed it. And I don't have $200 ,000 to pay some company to make it happen, as certain other people do that will remain nameless at the moment.

01:09:19

And I don't think the New York Times would ever acknowledge that I even exist. So... Dr.

01:09:25

James White, who is a Calvinist five -point Reformed theologian. He complains about saying libertarian freedom is a waste of words.

01:09:35

Well, Calvinist five -point Reformed is also a major waste of words, by the way.

01:09:40

Downtown, in front of a live audience of 150 people, two weeks earlier, James White contacted us.

01:09:45

I could be in Denver this night. Can you pull it off? And we pulled it off. It was pretty awesome. I didn't contact them.

01:09:52

I was contacted by somebody else, and then they all got that, and then they called you. And so we weren't looking for it.

01:10:01

I told you what happened. I was contacted and said, Hey, you know what? I'm going up there.

01:10:07

So, if there is someone who's interested in doing this, great. There is aftermath of the debate that is somewhat startling.

01:10:16

At OpenTheism .org, you can click on selected comments about the debate, and there are comments from R .C.

01:10:22

Sproul Jr. and James White. And they are startling. Startling.

01:10:28

We're going to find out what those were. Aftermath of the debate. Making a mountain out of a molehill here.

01:10:35

I would have been perfectly happy to let people just decide for themselves, but obviously that's not how it's going to work.

01:10:44

What they're trying to do is defend the omnis and the ems, we call them, the Greek and Latin philosophical attributes of God that philosophers have claimed this is what

01:10:54

God must be like, like immutability and impassibility. God doesn't experience emotions. God cannot change.

01:11:00

And if God cannot change, then how did God the Son become flesh? How did he take on a human nature?

01:11:06

How is it that God the Son today is the man Jesus Christ? Now, again, Bob Enyart will not stop saying these things no matter how often he's corrected.

01:11:17

It is not a matter of defending omnis and ems. For myself, what is my ultimate desire?

01:11:26

To vindicate God's truth found in his holy word, the scriptures. And I think a lot of people who have criticized me for my comments on philosophy and the supremacy of scripture over philosophy will find

01:11:41

Enyart's criticisms rather silly and humorous, actually, at some points.

01:11:47

But I point out in the debate about immutability and impassibility, there are certain definitions that Enyart has used for years.

01:11:57

He cannot allow them to be questioned because his whole system falls apart if they are. So if there's a better understanding, if there's a deeper understanding, not allowed.

01:12:08

Not allowed. So I can say that God rejoices over the salvation of his elect.

01:12:17

I can speak of God's wrath. I can speak all these things. Oh, so you don't believe in impassibility?

01:12:24

Well, if you understand what impassibility means, it means to be controlled by emotion, for there to be external forces that can act upon God that will change him and change his course of action.

01:12:39

Yeah, that kind of impassibility is not like a human being. I am impacted by my emotions in ways that I don't even understand, even as a

01:12:52

Scotsman, believe it or not. So God is impassible in that sense.

01:13:01

But see, from his perspective, no, no, no, no, no. It doesn't matter what theologians have said, how they've expressed it.

01:13:08

You all are simple, slavish followers of Plato and Aristotle, and that's all there is to it.

01:13:16

And so your God is a mute idol. He's like a rock. And that's it.

01:13:22

Just accept what you are. That's basically what you end up with.

01:13:27

And then, as pointed out in the debate, if God creates time, which by Ben -Yar,

01:13:35

God is stuck in time. Where time came from? Eh, can't say. But it's before God.

01:13:42

It's greater than God. Rules over God. God learns and changes and grows. I don't know how we can possibly avoid the fact that God's growing or learning.

01:13:50

Because he's learning new things all the time. So if you learn new things, you grow. And that means you either improve or get worse.

01:13:58

Which one is it? These are questions. Doesn't seem like he wants to really deal with them, but these are questions.

01:14:09

And so, if God creates time and he decrees his interaction with his creatures in time, which includes the amazing act of the

01:14:18

Incarnation, then for him, that means God's essence has to have changed.

01:14:24

He's stuck. Since he's in time, that means he experiences a progression of events.

01:14:30

And therefore, I'm right and everyone else is wrong. And my little group, we are the ones.

01:14:38

And I explain in the debate that my God's a lot bigger than Bob Ben -Yart's

01:14:43

God is. Because Bob Ben -Yart, you know, finite God -ism, it's hard for me to really respect it a lot. You know, you've got this

01:14:51

God that creates and the cross is a contingency plan and stuff like that, sort of.

01:14:57

But God creates time and he interacts with his people in time.

01:15:06

My God's big enough to do that. He's eternal, not limited by time, but creates time and can actually then interact, according to his decree, with his people in time.

01:15:19

My God's that big. He just simply, by definition, says, can't be such a God. So, if the

01:15:26

Incarnation takes place, that means God changed. And if God changed, then I win, by default.

01:15:33

And so, action, any action on the part of God in time means God changes. Now, that's absurd, but that's

01:15:41

Bob Ben -Yart. That's his system. He's stuck with it. It's the way he's developed. R .C.

01:15:47

Sproul Jr. and James White, they were a bit distressed that in the debate... Now, as I said in one of the videos

01:15:54

I uploaded, here's where the emotions come in. I'm personally sick and tired of Bob Ben -Yart thinking he's inside my head.

01:16:00

Thinking he can judge my motives, knows what my heart is, everything else. He has no idea who I am. None. None whatsoever.

01:16:09

And so, distressed? I was driving home. I wasn't distressed.

01:16:15

I was quite happy with the whole thing. I was quite happy with the whole trip. Had had a great trip.

01:16:22

I hadn't gone up to Colorado to do that debate. I did that debate because I happened to be in Colorado. And the primary reasons

01:16:29

I had gone up there went really, really well. I mean, I'm...

01:16:35

To this day, I remain extremely pleased that at almost 52 years of age,

01:16:42

I rode a bicycle from Evergreen, Colorado to the top of Mount Evans. And I didn't do it overly slowly.

01:16:50

And if any of you have ever driven to the top of Mount Evans, and if any of you do know me, and know that I'd have a hard time climbing up a ladder onto a roof, for me to ride

01:17:04

Mount Evans? Some of you have been up there. You know. There's this one part on the way down where you've got to climb, and I'm telling you,

01:17:14

I wish... The problem was, the mount for my camera, I actually have... I posted some video. But the mount on my camera, it was going down, the vibration was so bad, it wouldn't stay, so I just turned it off.

01:17:25

But I wish I had this. Because there's one point where the road just goes up, and all you can see is the road disappearing into nothingness.

01:17:37

I mean, it's just... And... I managed not only to go up, but down that thing.

01:17:45

And plan on doing it again in the future. I'm quite pleased. I set personal records all over the place on that time.

01:17:55

That's why I went up there. So I'm coming back, and I'm just... The idea that I'm thinking about Bob Enyard, and I'm giving

01:18:05

R .C. Sproul Jr. a call, whom I've never spoken to, I'm giving him a call.

01:18:10

What are we going to do about this Bob Enyard guy? Man, he's just... He's so good! Well, I suppose in a fantasy some place that might be true, but R .C.

01:18:23

Sproul Jr. and I have had zippity -doo -dah contact,

01:18:28

Bob. And we weren't sitting there going, Oh, you say this, and I'll say that, and I'll back you up.

01:18:36

Ridiculous. No contact whatsoever. I saw some link somewhere, and I saw that in the comments at opetheism .org,

01:18:50

for some reason R .C. Sproul Jr. had seen this, he made a comment. And I'm like, Oh yeah, well of course.

01:18:57

We're not Eutychians. We're not talking about the second person of the Trinity ceasing to be

01:19:05

God and becoming a mixture of God and man. We believe in the hypostatic union. That's all he's talking about.

01:19:11

That's all I'm talking about. Hypostatic union is real. Jesus Christ was truly one person with two natures, the

01:19:17

God -man, but there hadn't been a God -man before the Incarnation. I mean, this is all just historic

01:19:24

Orthodox Christian belief. Wow, we dared say that, and Bob Enyart loses his mind, as we're going to see here.

01:19:33

Accusing us of heresy and Neo -Nestorianism, and all the rest of this stuff, as if he and I are in cahoots on this.

01:19:43

I had three biblical arguments showing that the future cannot be settled, but it must be open, because God is free, because the attributes of God, the biblical attributes, show that He must change, and because the

01:19:56

Incarnation shows that He changed. Now, notice, because He's free, well, we believe

01:20:01

He was free. He was free to create as He chose. He was under no constraint to create in any other way than what is pleasing to the triune

01:20:11

God. His idea is, no, no, no, no, no, to be free as a time -bound creature, you have to have these attributes.

01:20:21

And so, the whole presupposition of the Enyartian finite godism is that I will not acknowledge a

01:20:27

God who is not like me, and hence limited in time and space. There you go,

01:20:34

I mean, and it's irrational, and he uses all sorts of philosophical arguments that have all sorts of parallels in Greek philosophy, and then hypocritically says, you all are just following Greek philosophy.

01:20:47

That's, uh, that's the, uh, that's how it works. From God the Son, with a divine nature to two natures,

01:20:54

He now has a fully divine nature and a fully human nature. That presents a big difficulty to the settled view, and to theologians who advocate the omnis and the ems as God's primary attributes.

01:21:06

It has never presented to us any problem at all. It is only when you assume the errors of Bob Enyartism that you create these alleged problems.

01:21:19

When you limit God, limit His knowledge, limit Him to time, don't understand the hypostatic union, then you end up with some real problems.

01:21:30

But since we don't do that, He demands that we do so, and creates the theological problems that He then will offer you the solutions to.

01:21:40

And so, trying to do spin control after the debate, R. C. Sproul Jr. interacting with R.

01:21:47

C. Sproul Jr. is doing spin control after the debate. Really? This is a fantasy!

01:21:54

I mean, it's like the debate organizer from OpenTheism .org, the debate organizer is

01:22:01

Will Duffy. And he wrote to Will Duffy and posted this on Will Duffy's webpage.

01:22:07

He wrote, God the Son did not have a human nature. Speaking of God through the incarnation, that's what they're talking about.

01:22:15

He's not saying an eternity past. He's saying, God the Son did not go from one nature to two.

01:22:21

God the Son didn't have a human nature. Jesus did. And that was shocking to us, because all of Christianity affirms that Jesus is

01:22:28

God the Son. Like, Jesus is not the fourth person of the Trinity. He's God the Son. So, he creates a completely different context to try to find a ground for accusation against what

01:22:44

R. C. Sproul Jr. was saying. All R. C. Sproul Jr. was saying is that the hypostatic union is real.

01:22:49

And there is no intermixture. And the Son remains the Son. And that the

01:22:55

Logos does not cease being the Logos when he becomes flesh. That there is no intermingling.

01:23:01

That when we speak of one person with two natures, we're talking about the incarnate person,

01:23:08

Jesus Christ. But he's simply affirming what Christians have always affirmed. That the eternal

01:23:14

Son does not change. But his whole second argument is that he does. And therefore, when he hears an orthodox theologian enunciating orthodox

01:23:25

Christology, it's heresy. And it could get even worse later on. But it's all manufactured by his own little cult.

01:23:35

His own little... Remember, we're talking about finite godism. Here he admits that he does not follow the orthodox understanding of God that Christians have held for many centuries.

01:23:48

He admits it. But then demands that all the rest of us function on his idiosyncratic, modern, and may

01:23:57

I point out, very heavily philosophical groundwork.

01:24:03

And when we don't, you're a heretic. Will Duffy asked him to clarify.

01:24:09

He said he's never heard anything like that. And R .C. Sproul Jr. clarified and he said, God the Son does not now, nor has he ever had two natures.

01:24:17

That was startling. Absolutely startling. Since the Bible says, God sent his own

01:24:23

Son in the likeness of sinful flesh. Which, of course, R .C. Sproul, or myself,

01:24:28

R .C. Sproul Jr., or myself, do not deny, we're not denying, if you just have any understanding of what the hypostatic union is actually talking about.

01:24:38

And God was manifested in the flesh. And the Word was God and the Word became flesh. So the

01:24:43

Word changed. The Word now has two natures where he always had one. And in the debate, James White, I asked him, when

01:24:50

God the Son went from having one nature, a divine nature, to two natures, a divine and a human nature, was that a change?

01:24:56

And James White said, no. So after R .C. Sproul Jr. denied that God the Son... Now, I said, no.

01:25:04

And I've just explained why that is. The Word didn't cease being the Word. The Word didn't cease being eternal.

01:25:09

The Word did not become a mixture of God and man. He was not 50%, 50%. Simple hypostatic union. This is historic

01:25:15

Orthodox Christology. What do we have here? Nothing. What we have is damage control.

01:25:23

What we have is, I lost that debate so badly that I need to give my followers something to focus upon, and so I'm going to focus on the person.

01:25:33

And that's what this is all about. Has two natures, which the Bible affirms repeatedly. Then, James White, in solidarity with R .C.

01:25:41

Sproul Jr., who writes the forewords to James White's books. Who writes the forewords to James White's books.

01:25:49

I didn't take the time. My recollection is, he wrote the foreword to Potter's Freedom, right?

01:25:55

My recollection is, that's it. That's 124th of my books.

01:26:02

And I did not contact R .C. Sproul Jr. to do that. Chris Arnzen did that. So, yeah, we're, solidarity, we were on the phone, we were texting each other.

01:26:13

No, actually, I wouldn't know how to get a hold of R .C. Sproul Jr. if I had to. I could probably,

01:26:18

I know someone who could get me in touch with him. Maybe it was Mr. X. Mr.

01:26:24

X. Remember Mr. X, yes. Mr. X. Dun -dun -dun. Dun -dun -dun. James White wrote, also to Will Duffy, the debate organizer from OpenTheism .org,

01:26:34

he wrote this. God the Son does not have two natures. Jesus had two natures.

01:26:44

Yes! Yes! So, what were we talking about? It's the

01:26:49

Son that takes on that human nature, one person, two natures, they are not intermingled.

01:26:55

Yes, yes. These comments from these two Reformed theologians, they hit me so hard,

01:27:02

I felt like I was punched in the gut. To hear Christian leaders say that God the Son did not take on humanity, does not have a human nature.

01:27:11

And that's what we said, right? No, that's not what we said. There was a context.

01:27:16

It may have been a context that required someone to actually know what they were talking about, but he pretends to know what he's talking about?

01:27:24

And therefore... I'm just, I am stunned. I'm sickened to my stomach.

01:27:30

And I hope and pray that they will reconsider. Yeah, there you go. So, you have the creation of this false accusation based upon the ignorance or misrepresentation or dishonesty.

01:27:43

I wanted to think it was ignorance at first. I'm afraid I'm being pushed away from that.

01:27:50

But, there it comes. That's why how long is that ScreenFlow video?

01:27:57

It is like 32 minutes or something like that. I had to take enough time to explain what the real issues were and get that out there, even on Saturday.

01:28:05

But it's what we expected because leading theologians have not had to defend timelessness and immutability in light of the

01:28:13

Incarnation. They have avoided that issue, like the Plague, since the time of Augustine. Really?

01:28:26

It's never come up in any of my debates with Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses or Muslims Nah, it's never come up.

01:28:36

Sorry, but that's just so absurd that you can't respond to anything like that seriously.

01:28:44

Never had to deal with this. We, me, Bob Enyard, I'm the one that's after 2 ,000 years, aren't you glad I came along to get things straightened out.

01:28:56

It took a long time, but here we are. There we go. And it's hard to understand why other

01:29:02

Christians have not challenged them. How could God be utterly immutability if the Incarnation is true?

01:29:07

And it just so happens the Incarnation is the central doctrine of Christianity. It is definitely central to the

01:29:13

Christian faith. When you have a God big enough to create time and to decree his own interaction with his people in time, it makes perfect sense.

01:29:21

There is absolutely no contradiction and a lot of us have already understood this for a long, long time.

01:29:27

Bob, I'm sorry that you missed it and I'm sorry that you've built your entire career as a teacher on misrepresentation of the

01:29:34

Christian faith at this point. And I'm sorry that it was made so plain in our debate, but facts are facts.

01:29:43

Trying to convince your followers otherwise by this kind of false attacks on me and R .C.

01:29:49

Sproul Jr. and Orthodox Christianity as a whole, doomed to failure. And thirdly, the

01:29:55

Incarnation. Okay, then he started playing some portions from his presentation and I did want to, we're going to go ahead, this could be a mega, but we'll wrap it up at the top there.

01:30:06

I did want to play some of these and respond to a couple of the statements.

01:30:14

Again, for educational purposes. It reputably shows that God is not outside of time. The Incarnation proves that God is not outside of time because the life of God the

01:30:24

Son is being lived in a sequence. First, he existed through eternity. Do you all see the fundamental problem with this?

01:30:32

What's the again, hopefully if you think presuppositionally as we have talked about so many times, you see immediately the flaws in Enyart's presentation.

01:30:47

What's the assumption here? That God cannot act in time without himself being captured by and limited to the personal experience of time as the full matrix of his entire being.

01:31:05

That's the assumption that's being made here. If God acts in time, then he's trapped in time. He didn't create it and it can't be a part of his decree.

01:31:14

This is a presuppositional assumption. If God chooses to enter into time in the person of Jesus Christ, well then he must have always been subject to time.

01:31:28

That's very similar presuppositionally to the assumption that my Muslim friends make. That God could never enter into his own creation.

01:31:36

It's just a given. They don't reason for it. The vast majority of them don't.

01:31:42

And certainly Bob Enyart isn't. ...with only one nature, a divine nature, not having a human nature.

01:31:49

Then by the incarnation, he became a man, even the son of man, taking upon himself a second nature, our human nature, so that now and forever he is both

01:31:58

God the Son and the man, Jesus Christ. For 1 ,600 years, the church has argued that the future must be settled because God is outside of time.

01:32:08

But that collapses by the force of the central doctrine of Christianity, the incarnation.

01:32:14

So there's his fundamental argument. It is a flawed argument. It is based upon unproven, and he doesn't even attempt to prove, presuppositions that are clearly false limitations upon God's creative capacity.

01:32:30

Which is interesting because he's the one that says, I'm defending God's freedom. Oh, so evidently God is not free to a.

01:32:36

exist out of time and b. then create time and interact meaningfully with his creatures in time.

01:32:41

That's your assumption. That's your presupposition. You didn't defend it. You just simply run with it.

01:32:49

James White does not believe that God experiences sequence. But I posit that the sequence experienced by God through the incarnation is irrefutable.

01:33:00

Obviously, the God -man experienced progression of time.

01:33:06

And insofar as God chooses to interact with his people as he did with the people of Israel and as he's doing and building the church, then

01:33:16

God experiences that progression of time that he chooses to experience.

01:33:26

None of that takes away from his eternal nature or the fact that that is the expression of his freedom to engage with his people in time.

01:33:38

It flows from his decree. I'm consistent here. I've always been consistent there. Only by assuming false presuppositions refuted by the text that in this presentation he didn't even begin to try to deal with, especially

01:33:53

I notice, especially the text from Isaiah about the past.

01:33:58

He crows about how we knew where he was going to go. We refuted all that. He didn't even try. He didn't even mention it.

01:34:04

It's like he didn't even hear it. And we'll see that a little bit later on. Now, for those who think that time was created...

01:34:11

Now, listen. Bob Enyart over and over and over again says, You all are just followers of philosophy.

01:34:19

You're followers of... You just follow Plato. You've just got a platonic God. It's like Zeus.

01:34:25

I mean, it gets actually rather boring after a while. But listen to this argument he's about to give and ask yourself a question.

01:34:34

Is this a biblical argument or is this a philosophical argument? Now, for those who think that time was created by God and not an aspect of His existence, please consider that time cannot be created.

01:34:48

Why not? Because creation means going from non -existence to existence, which itself is a before and an after.

01:34:56

And since time, therefore, is a precondition of creating, time itself cannot be created.

01:35:02

There you go. Here is the man who only gives you the Bible and no philosophy.

01:35:12

Now, the argument itself assumes supratemporality over all things and that God is stuck in these things doesn't seem to understand the difference between a logical order and a temporal order such as we have to discuss in such things as supralapsarianism versus infralapsarianism where we're not talking about an actual temporal order of thoughts in God's mind, but a logical order which we as time -bound creatures can only understand in a sense of time.

01:35:57

That's all we can do. But to assume that God has the same limitations, he's going to later say, oh, that perspective it's irrational.

01:36:08

So he's a good rationalist. He's a good rationalist and he is limited as God to a creature who experiences time.

01:36:17

That's what finite godism is all about. Why does James deny that God has emotion?

01:36:23

Because even that kind of change would prove that God lives in sequence. Do you get that?

01:36:29

The doctrine of immutability dissolves in Jesus' tears. I saw this happening.

01:36:35

Those of you on YouTube, just hold on. Why are we running on battery power for the camera?

01:36:43

He's a good question. He's a very good question. And suddenly it became dark in the

01:36:54

Dividing Lines studio. Actually, I saw this flashing little red light on the front of the camera.

01:37:02

The thought crossed my mind, you know, I'm not sure what that is, but I'm sort of wondering since we moved the camera and we put stuff in and we've been doing all this changing and stuff,

01:37:17

I'm sort of wondering if maybe possibly it's been running on battery all this time and it's about to croak and about two minutes later the screen goes dark and it says, battery low, replace battery pack or something like that.

01:37:36

So ignore the man in the back who is trying to plug things into the things.

01:37:44

Now people on channel are going, who turned out the lights? I'm going to pretend that Rich is not over there.

01:37:52

They can hear you fine. I'm just going to pretend he's not over there plugging stuff in going, why didn't

01:37:58

I do this before and stuff like that and replay this and continue to comment.

01:38:05

Why does James deny that God has emotion? What did I specifically say? That God experiences human emotion that can control or alter his plans, his perspectives.

01:38:18

God's experience of joy is the basis upon which we can understand our experience of joy, but it is much fuller and much greater.

01:38:30

His experience of wrath, for example, we can't even begin to understand that.

01:38:35

Why? Because our experience of wrath is always associated with evil.

01:38:42

It's always associated with sin. So, the divine experience is such a one, the whole purpose of impassibility is to recognize that biblically speaking, our

01:39:01

God is the God of Psalm 33. The God of Psalm 33.

01:39:08

Remember, we've talked about this in the past, but look at Psalm 33. He establishes his purposes while frustrating the purposes of the nations.

01:39:19

That's why there can be no external force that acts upon God, where he goes, now, of course,

01:39:30

I can guarantee you what the open theist is going to say. The open theist is going to say, that means prayer does nothing.

01:39:37

And, of course, they think the only reason for prayer is to change God rather than changing us.

01:39:45

And I believe that it changes us. Because even that kind of change would prove that God lives in sequence.

01:39:53

Do you get that? The doctrine of immutability dissolves in Jesus' tears. Now, that's a beautiful line of heresy.

01:40:02

Beautiful line of heresy. That's one of the best written lines of heresy I've ever heard. It, again, assumes that because Jesus was truly a man and, therefore, experienced temporal existence, that, therefore, you can backwards engineer that to limit

01:40:23

God to the experience of time and, therefore, God has to grow and he has to improve and he has to learn things and has to be able to change his perspective on things and go different directions and, you know, all sorts of stuff like that.

01:40:36

That's just sort of necessary. Now, we'll have time to play this.

01:40:47

The note that I have, I didn't fire up the little thing to where Rich can put this up. I should have done that. I should do that because we're not getting done with this.

01:40:54

I should do that next time so people can see what Audio Notetaker looks like and how it works because it's sort of cool. Have you done it before?

01:41:01

Okay. The note that I have next to this next block of text is rather straightforward.

01:41:13

Well, here. I'm actually window Audio Notetaker.

01:41:19

You got it now. Here's the note that I have. Great example of eisegesis based upon pagan philosophy.

01:41:30

So, there you have part of it. He's trying to put it there. Here's a great example of eisegesis based upon pagan philosophy.

01:41:41

leave it there. Here's this gray block of text. That's a fairly lengthy segment.

01:41:50

But, here's the vain attempt on the part of Bob Enyard to make the

01:41:56

Bible contradictory to itself as a means of undercutting Ephesians chapter 1. And this is an excellent example.

01:42:04

I think this is a very educational example of the vast difference between biblically based exegetical apologetics and philosophical, in this case, heresy.

01:42:15

Listen to what he has to say. Two hotly contested verses often put in opposition to one another from Ephesians and 1

01:42:23

Timothy both use the word all. They can't both mean all without exception. Does God work all things according to the counsel of his will?

01:42:31

That is predestining everything. Or does God desire that all men would be saved? That is, everyone.

01:42:38

First, some background. While on location in Asia Minor, studying there, we learned that Ephesus was the international center of the worship of Diana, a wild goddess who might throw a tantrum and turn you into an animal.

01:42:52

Pagans would worship in the high places so Paul told the Ephesians that we are blessed in the heavenly places where Christ is seated above any

01:43:00

Acropolis, in fact, far above all principalities and powers. If you prioritize the omnis and ims, as James does, that God has all power and all knowledge and cannot change.

01:43:13

If you put those above the biblical attributes, then by those philosophical attributes, you immediately conclude that the verse must say that God has predestined everything for you conclude that you conclude that before you even look at the verse.

01:43:27

If instead you prioritize those thousands of highlighted verses, the biblical attributes of God above the omnis and ims and you focus on God being living, personal, relational, good and loving, then the other interpretation is this.

01:43:42

You immediately see that God does desire all men, without exception, to be saved because that interpretation is not based on quantity but on quality and it fits with his biblical attributes.

01:43:54

So God wills that all would be saved. Yes, as the Bible says that the lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, many others will reject

01:44:02

God's will that all would be saved. Then God, being good and loving, shows that he would never predestine filth and evil, just the fact that he's good and loving.

01:44:11

So God working all things according to the counsel of his will means that unlike the pagan gods who are arbitrary and capricious, everything that our

01:44:21

God does, he does thoughtfully according to the counsel of his will. So Ephesians does not teach that everything that happens is done by God.

01:44:29

For God is not even the author of confusion, let alone evil. Rather, unlike the cruel and unpredictable

01:44:35

Greek gods, everything that our God does, all God's works, not all of man's works, but all of God's works are done deliberately and out of his goodness.

01:44:45

So by the biblical attributes, we reject the omnis and ims interpretation and see that God wants everyone to be saved and also that not everything is settled, but rather everything

01:44:56

God does is for a good reason. So by prioritizing the attributes highlighted in these verses above the omnis and ims, you get a powerful biblical framework for interpreting the

01:45:07

Bible, which never leads to the settled view, but to the God who is eternally free. So there you have an amazing example of eisegesis in service of an overriding philosophical concept, specifically the rejection, not prioritizing divine attributes in a proper biblical way.

01:45:34

That's not what Bob Enyard is into. He rejects omniscience and omnipotence and immutability and he rejects them, just straight out.

01:45:47

So even though when he says that he's putting them in the proper priority, he's actually just elevating certain attributes that he demands are most important to God and then getting rid of the rest of them.

01:46:02

Okay? So what then does that allow you to do? Were we given any eisegesis of either

01:46:10

Ephesians 1 or 1 Timothy 2 or 2 Peter 3 9, whichever one he was making reference to there?

01:46:16

Were we given eisegesis? No. We were given, well, the interpretation you would get given my emphasis upon these particular attributes and my rejection of others would be this.

01:46:31

But that's not eisegesis. That's not eisegesis. We have gone through 2

01:46:38

Peter 3 9, 1 Timothy 2 4 many, many times before. We've walked through them and said, okay, let's follow the audience.

01:46:45

Let's look at 1 Timothy 2. All men. Who's the all men here? Kings and nobles and authority.

01:46:50

Kinds of men. For whom does Christ intercede? We've talked about intercession. Go to 2

01:46:55

Peter 3. Them, us. Them, us. Who's the them? Who's the us? Patient toward who?

01:47:01

All of whom? We can walk through it on the exegetical level and demonstrate what's being said.

01:47:09

You can do the same thing in Ephesians 1 and follow that sentence, that long sentence fragment through all the way back to everything happens.

01:47:22

The praise is glorious grace and so what's said in Ephesians 1 11 is consistent with 1 6. None of that is even relevant in the

01:47:30

Enyartian eisegesis based upon accepting overriding presuppositions and then creating interpretations not based upon the text or the language of the text but upon the system that you've already created.

01:47:46

And there you have an excellent example of it. Excellent example of it. And so you take two texts that are about completely different things.

01:47:54

They just happen to share the word all. You don't talk about context. You don't talk about the actual meaning of the text in its argument written by the author at that point.

01:48:05

No, no, no. It just becomes Plato and you can reform it based upon this.

01:48:12

I mean that's I'll never forget that Mormon missionary reaching over my

01:48:18

Bible and pointing at Ephesians 1 11 and saying that's wrong and I feel good saying that.

01:48:25

This is just the same way of doing it. You've just done it a little less boldly. A little less boldly.

01:48:31

That's all. Before that criminal came into existence a criminal who could perform who could perform in no other way than the way in which he was created.

01:48:40

Which is why James White consistently says that all wickedness is meaningful. Because even though he doesn't want to be held to it like Augustine he traces all evil directly back to gods, omnis and ems.

01:48:52

Now most of you noticed that prior to the debate I took the time while we were up in Colorado.

01:49:02

I was staying with some friends there and they have a beautiful home and they weren't home at the time so I just set up the computer, had a nice little background there and I recorded a message for Bob Enyart.

01:49:18

And clearly Bob Enyart watched it and clearly Bob Enyart did not hear it.

01:49:24

Not because there was anything wrong with the sound. The sound did work. But it is painfully obvious that when you have spent as many decades as Bob Enyart has tilting at windmills and basing your entire claim to fame theologically upon a complete misunderstanding and misrepresentation of another position it's not easy for you to hear correction.

01:49:52

And that's why those of you who listened to my video you know what

01:49:59

I said. You know that what I was saying to him was yes,

01:50:05

I believe what the Westminster Confession of Faith says that God freely ordained whatsoever takes place in time.

01:50:12

But I just believe the rest of the sentence too. And you say the rest of the sentence is self -contradictory because you just don't understand it.

01:50:19

And that makes me Rodney King. No, it just means that you don't understand what you're talking about and you contradict yourself all the time.

01:50:26

That's all. I leave that to the people to judge who is able to substantiate that accusation. Because what

01:50:32

I said was a misrepresentation was that if you tell an audience that all

01:50:37

Calvinists believe is that God ordained all child rape that is so imbalanced, that is so shallow, and that is so meant to create emotion on the part of the people you're talking to that it's clearly not meant to be taken seriously.

01:50:52

Is it, Bob? But that's all you can do. I know that. I know that's all you can do.

01:50:59

You can't say it the way we say it. Because first of all, you're going to assume that we're just trying to hide something.

01:51:05

But the reality is, of course, that what we're recognizing is that there are higher priorities in God's revelation of his purposes than the ones you have.

01:51:20

Yeah. God's self -glorification in the Trinity is much more important than anything else.

01:51:29

And though you may think there are quote -unquote innocent human beings, the Bible teaches we all fell in Adam. And God could have wiped

01:51:36

Adam out and hence all the rest of us in one fell swoop but he chose not to do so. And if you want to promote to people in this evil world that your

01:51:47

God created it, knew all this evil could happen, hoped it wouldn't, but hey, if you want to present a teenage

01:51:56

God in a Camaro as worthy of worship, Bob, he's all yours.

01:52:03

Christ's sheep are never going to follow that. Christ's sheep are never going to follow that. Because that's what you're presenting to us.

01:52:13

What I said in that video was it is a gross misrepresentation to not tell your audiences everything that we believe.

01:52:23

You only tell them the one part that you know will create the greatest amount of emotional dissonance.

01:52:31

I know that, this audience knows that, and so do you. And so don't tell me

01:52:37

I won't be held accountable for this. This audience, my audience, you call your audience the brightest audience in the

01:52:46

United States, the nation, whatever it is, my audience well knows how many hours

01:52:52

I have spent owning all of that. Just another one of those misrepresentations?

01:53:00

Again, maybe, Bob? Seems to be. Seems to be. Well, one other real quick clip here, and we'll...

01:53:09

And that's another thing about open theism, which James White has admitted publicly, that even on its face, that unlike Calvinism, open theism does not bring men to question the goodness of God.

01:53:20

Now, I'm not going to spend nearly as much time on that. It does come up a couple of times. That's a misrepresentation.

01:53:27

It was based upon a out -of -context citation from the Austin Fisher debate on Unbelievable. I put up a 10 -minute video.

01:53:34

I played the entire context. If Bob Enyart cannot admit, okay, we blew it.

01:53:42

You are not saying, you have not publicly admitted anything of the kind. All you are saying is that the questions about God's goodness that Calvinists have to answer are different than the questions about God's goodness that open theists have to answer.

01:53:54

That's all I was saying. Any honest person with integrity will admit that. If you will not admit that, you have no integrity, and you're not an honest man.

01:54:03

That's all there is to it. Facts are facts, Bob. Facts are facts. So, there you go.

01:54:08

We've gone for two hours and covered almost everything there, but we've still got some more to talk about on that.

01:54:17

And coming up in an hour or so, Bob Enyart will be back on the air. Who knows what that will be like, huh?

01:54:25

But anyways, we'll be back, Lord willing, on Thursday. We'll see you then. Thanks for listening.