Presuppositionalism

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 973 460 to or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James White. And welcome to the dividing line on September 11th 2011 11 2011 2012 11 years to the day from the attacks on the World Trade Center trade centers and the Pentagon and I certainly remember that morning very very well was my first morning of teaching at Grace Christian School which no longer exists, but I was teaching high school Bible and I remember coming into that classroom that morning and looking at those young people and saying your lives have changed forever and I don't think You could possibly understand how?

But When you think about it the Afghanistan war started very shortly after that and you know, I Didn't do all the numbers, but we've been in that war for a fifth of my life. That's a law. It's the longest war we've ever been involved in and You know, you hardly ever hear anything about anymore.

The media is just like it's just not even there You know used to for some reason when George Bush was in office. You heard all about how many people died every day and now it's just you don't seem to hear much about that at all.

It's odd. But anyway, it is September 11th and therefore with great irony I Get to announce that aside from just a few pages of conclusion Wrapping a few things up at the end. I have I have finished that book that has been sitting like a Huge rock upon my back the last chapter Which is on the transmission of the text of the Quran.

I just dropped it into the editing folder and It and ended up coming in at 34 pages in length with seven pages Notes I'm telling you folks if you do not read the end notes, you're going it you are going to be Missing the vast majority of this book this book in Initial form is bigger than the King James only controversy.

It's two hundred and ninety pages not including forward for materials Bibliography or glossary it's gonna need a glossary. Last night. I was reading some stuff to my wife and my daughter and as I was reading it I realized wow, this has got a lot of technical Material.

There's just no way to avoid it and I I'm gonna have to I'm gonna tell you and by the way the phone lines are open I Invite your calls today because I'm you forgot perfectly. I have been at this so consistently and so long Over the past few weeks.

I am brain-dead. And in fact, I would greatly appreciate your prayers because in Six days less than six days. I'm gonna be debating at the East London Mosque and The next day I'm doing the unbelievable radio program least.

Oh, I hope so and The next day I'm debating at Trinity Road Chapel and the next day and I'm flying to Berlin and Then the next Sunday, I'm preaching at Trinity Road Chapel morning and evening and then next Monday I'm doing two debates.

And so it is going to be really Really intense and it's been really intense even today I Tracked stuff down for this chapter today that I've never seen before that. I've only heard of before. I mean, I'm really excited.

All I can all I can say is to Adnan Rashid, buddy Prepared because I I've got I got a whole lot more going now than I than I had before as far as resources and citations and articles and just all sorts of stuff and I all I can say is once this comes out I Would just invite the naysayers and I would invite the people who came down on me like a ton of bricks two years ago During a certain controversy just compare the books.

Just compare the research and the depth and as I was saying, I'm gonna have to defend. You might say well, you're done writing it. Yeah, pretty much. I am done writing it, but Now there's the editing process and I'm gonna have to defend The length of this book in the editing process, I'm gonna have to defend the depth of this book in the editing process.

But I've I think with Bethany house. I'm on I'm on good ground because They continue to publish the King James only controversy and it's one of their favorite books as far as it it's used as a textbook and things like that and I've already demonstrated you can call Christians to a higher level and look.

Those who attempt to speak to Muslims know that you need You need real information. You need documentation. You need to understand where they're coming from. You need to understand the historical backgrounds.

You need to understand where the most half is you understand? Who the Allah Kitab are? It's I I realize for many Christians It's just lost is too much it's it's too deep and The reality is you know, if the King James only controversy, it's like look if you're really going to understand What this controversy is about you need to know where the Bible came from and you need to you know, you need to have the resources to actually engage a subject and so many people have been blessed by that book and by the book on the Trinity and Yes, it has Greek in it and it has Hebrew in it.

You know the book on the Trinity does you know that kind of thing? Well If you're looking for the fluffy stuff that's already out there on Islam. This ain't it? We go you're gonna learn about Abdullah Ibn Masood and Ubay Ibn Ka 'b and you're gonna learn about their mushaf and and you're gonna learn about the sa 'ana manuscript finds and the palimpsest readings and and The the the radiocarbon dating of the of the parchment upon which the palimpsest and the sa 'ana manuscripts is what it dates it to and and you're you're gonna learn about a lot of stuff and so.

And I and you could go So much deeper you you could I mean there's just so much. But I I hope that I have Struck a balance. I would say the last two chapters are pretty deep but the preceding chapters, I think are fully understandable and they're the ones that are on the the theological issues of.

You know, they're the chapter on the cross surah for 157. There's a chapter on They said been Miriam and there's a chapter called say not three. There's a chapter on Tauhid. There's a chapter on Muhammad and I try to be fair this is not an encyclopedia.

The title of the book it's already on Amazon, but they're gonna have to reprice it because it's bigger than they thought was gonna be but It's on Amazon. The title of the book is what every Christian needs to know about the Quran not what not everything there is to know about the Quran you got to understand there's difference there and there are sections that.

There are things that some people go. Oh, I wish you had talked about this or I wish you had talked about that or You know, I understand that I understand that but I I had an outline and I limited Myself pretty much to who is God who is Christ?

What is salvation? What about the cross and What about? The. Basically, I'm drawing from my experience as a Christian apologist here. I mean, what else can I draw from and So I deal with the sources that the Quran uses that it even though it denies that it uses sources the sources that it does use and I deal with its transmission and I deal with there's a whole chapter on the people of the book the people the gospel and the charge of the corruption of the injeel and so I go into and.

And there's you're gonna read a lot of the Quran. You have to because I cannot assume that people are going that the Christian who picks up this book has ever read the Quran and so I have to quote a lot of the Quran and You need to read those portions and read them carefully and if there's a footnote there go to the footnote.

Well, it's not a footnote. I know how I'd love if they made him footnotes. I really would and Maybe I can talk him into it. I Doubt it, but I you know, cuz none of the other books well, actually I'll take that back that the guy who justified God justifies has footnotes, right?

Is that how we did? No. This is live. Yep, they got footnotes. Yeah, maybe we can work it out it would actually now that I think about it, I'm gonna I'm gonna ask for it and Given that what size is those footnotes?

Oh, man, that is tiny. I mean, that's this looks like a smudge the bottom of the page to me anyway. But that would take up a lot less room because right now with ten point ten ten point font. Can you tell us been a long day?

Mm-hmm. It's a very long day ten point font. Those those end notes are taken up. I don't know how many pages. They are taken up a lot of space so maybe who made him footnotes. It would actually shorten the book up a little bit.

Yes, sir. You look tired. I am tired. I'm exhausted. So I just like to put the word out right now that if any of your critics opponents This is the time to call in to the dividing line and try to see if you can't trip up Dr. White his his tongue done be tripping over his teeth.

Yeah, my tongue keeps getting from I can't see what I'm saying. Tongue gets a friend my teeth can't see what I'm saying. That's what's that's what's going on. No two is bad two days back yeah, I've been at it since first thing this morning and Late last night, and it's just it's just been every day.

No, that was not a pastor Frye ism. I've been my dad was saying that long before I ever heard pastor Frye say it. But my mom actually used to say it too. But that's just an old way of saying things and you're stumbling over over your words.

But I I'll try to I'll try to talk him into it and maybe do footnotes because those small font. But some of these honestly some of these footnotes would honestly take up Massive I put a lot of the Hadith.

Yeah. Yeah, I put a lot of the Hadith citations and stuff Into into the end notes just to try to keep the text flowing because I understand this is this is hard stuff. But if if you want to feel prepared to speak to Muslim your Muslim friends I really really help hope that this will help you to do that and I actually hope that'll Allow you to actually see Muslims as being the possible possibility of friends Get you over that that fear.

I please do not ask me When it is going to be out? Because I don't know I don't know how long the editing process will be I think once my editor Gets a chance to do a read-through I do Turn books in in a very clean form.

What I mean by that is I you know, I I really don't Think that it's appropriate to turn a book in with huge numbers of typographical errors and this that and the other thing and make the Publisher do a bunch of work.

In fact for those who are interested in such things. I I write in typeset format. I Set my page up. So it's the same page as the standard Bethany house typesetting font sizes, etc, etc, and I write in typeset for that's how I know how many pages it is within about two or three percent one direction or the other and So You know once once he gets a chance to do a read-through on it then that he may be able to give me a little bit better idea of when it might be available and All of it has to do with their print runs and press schedules and all the rest that kind of stuff.

So who knows but please don't be asking me because I won't know for a while. But it there is gonna be some work to be done, you know, they'll send me back stuff with You know alterations or what about this?

Well, but that one of the big things is I wrote this over such a long period of time that Consistency over chapters that were written six eight months apart from another is going to be really a challenge as far as like how you spell things and and all that kind of stuff, so we'll we'll see how that goes, but I need to get This sent off knowing that it's going to be editing stuff because there is a second book that I'm going to be doing with Bethany house that we need to get to ASAP and so I'm just going to stay in this high pressure cooker mode and Try to jump right on that and Really?

I'd like to try to get it done if at all possible by early next year so it's out next year as well, and so we're just gonna just gonna keep hammering away on this stuff because it's I just think it's really important and it's been a while since.

Yeah, I've written a number of books over the past number of years. But it's been a number of years since one came out and a lot of the last ones were smaller ones. This this is a major major work and So, I mean, yeah, it's not as long as you got it justifies.

That's that's a big book. But it's it's got a lot of a lot of material in it and it was incredibly incredibly challenging. So my sincerest thanks to all of you who have been praying those of you who you know I I was so appreciative yesterday or day before yesterday one of those or maybe the day before that.

Sometime believe me time has just accordioned on me recently. I I Could just throw something onto the blog that says I need this. I need this source, you know I've I've got it in electronic form, but I need it in paper form so I can do this out of it.

Here it is and you know, I can put that up on the ministry resource list and five minutes later. It's gone it's it's already been already been purchased and That is such an encouragement. I am going to have a fairly lengthy Thank-you section in this book, but I'm gonna tell you all right now.

Even those of you who by name I know you and you have been involved in helping I'm going to use initials I mean I have to come to I have to state my conclusions in this book and the conclusion of a fair analysis of the Quran's teachings in Regards to the Bible and Jesus and salvation is that it is in error and that means that Muhammad was not who the Muslims claimed that he was that's what Christians believe and So I just don't feel comfortable putting specific people's names.

I mean look what happened to you. I Dedicated the King James line controversy to you and Peter Reckman decided that you're a hell-bound liar and sinner as a result, right? Hey, well, we that got released in 95, right?

Yeah. Okay. The phone call stopped a couple years ago. Yeah, so I'm not gonna I'm not gonna put names in there. I'll put initials. So you can look at the initials figure out if I gave you thanks or not.

Some somewhere along the line, but I think initials are good. The initials WM will be quite common who me. That's funny but yeah, so there there will be a great thanks to RP and VL and stuff like that's gonna be appearing in the in the front of book for all the assistance and in all this but anyways, it's.

And of course my thanks to all the people in the chat channel have been putting up with the past couple weeks I've just started one of the things that helps me keep going is To show folks that I'm actually getting something done.

So I've just been flooding our chat channel if you if you'd want to see it was in the book I do is sit in the chat channel you could put it in reading almost all of it over the past number of weeks and it has Provided me with great Stats.

I mean, I'm I've almost caught up with turrets and fan and for the yearlies and My per line numbers are huge. So They've all they've all put up with it and there's been a few whiners, you know, here comes a flood look out oh boy, you know that kind of thing, but You know Yeah.

As someone in channel to said RP equals Rich Pierce there's other people who have the same initials as as that so That could be interesting. Hmm. I'm not gonna sure how I'm gonna I'm maybe I'm just gonna make up names and I'm going with WM W M.

Okay. Yes, we're gonna go a CT DG for crazy tambourine dance girl. That's that's Ordo and channel. I may have to come up with stuff like this that that may be the way to do it. Tucson mom would be easy because you know, I mean who really knows who Tucson mom is anyways, then there's many moms in Tucson.

Therefore, you know, that would be safe. So I guess if you if you want a Nick used you're just gonna have to tell me what what Nick you want you. What Nick you want used? In the in the thanks at the front of the book if I can even get him in there because they may go.

Ah, it's not you only get one page we're gonna run out of space here who knows and. So I got to get this thing sent off to people guy get that first read-through done. Catch any of the rest of the things I need to catch and then there are people to send it to.

And I've already got some some interesting people who want to read this book some very interesting people. No, Eric and Kanner has not contacted me and asked to read this book. Though I can guarantee you his presentations on the Quran would be greatly benefited by reading the book.

But anyway so All right. So with that September 11th, isn't that odd that we would wrap wrap things up on September 11th, but. We do have phone callers. They have colors on the line and they have one line open at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the number I Hope you all are going to be kind to me today.

Let's let's get to. Yes, see Farshad and in channel got it, right. I'm gonna get I'm gonna get Muslim Muslim by choice to read the book and give me a recommendation on. Who is that guy? Who was that guy?

Oh. Wasn't it the the guy that we have to constantly block that that. Yes, Abdul is it Saeed so he'd Abdul Malik. Is that his name? So a Sadiq Sadiq Sadiq he. Wasn't he the one that when when we first announced that I was gonna do the book, you know.

When's it gonna be out so I can refute it? Something like that wasn't I him? No, I think that was the guy up in Canada the one that's in his mother's basement. Oh, okay I don't always he was doing the stuff on Twitter with you every day.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah I lose track of my fans after a while. But yeah there I remember I remember some Muslim saying when you're gonna put out your book so I can refute it. That's it's like, okay good we'll get him to endorse it.

Yeah. Yeah, we could do that. Anyways. Okay, let's get to the phone calls here and let's talk with Gregory and st. Kitts. Hi Gregory.

Good. Good. Good. Good night. Dr. Dr. Right. Good night. Yes, I'm calling two things very quickly. First of all quickly, I will listen to a program you did in the past and like oh you're playing them over on your side.

Yes, and and that program you said one thing you were listening to. Dr. Murray and a knowledge Muslim man debating Shabir Ali, I think yes. Yeah, and and they were debating something that you do not understand where he came from.

That was Mohammed the call of Mohammed private area. Yes. No, no, no, I'm honest to dr. Murray. I think I know where he was coming from. You see, dr Murray was involved with debating the nation of Islam and He tried to show the nation of Islam that that he had it said Mohammed was a white man and it even said that Mohammed Private area was white and he said one time when he told one a member of a nation of Islam they were very devastated to learn that even the court they had it even went as far as.

Talking about that concerning Mohammed. Well, that may be that may be what prompted him to do it. But the fact that is Sahil Bakari doesn't say that that's the problem.

Yeah, but I think that is weird. Dr. Murray. I think that is where the conversation really came from.

Well, all I can all I can say is it had no place in a debate with a Sunni Muslim by the name of Shabir Ali.

Yes, I understand. I understand but but I just want to say I think the nation of Islam was the background of that. Okay, but more importantly than that though more much more importantly than that when when when I think When I tell people that the Bible says that for example God loved Esau Sorry, sorry, God loved Jacob and he hated Esau and then when I show them this time They say he loved people.

I mean he ate people who practice wickedness and iniquity. They always come back and say well, even though it is worded like that. It really mean God hated their work and not their personally and where he says concern.

They will come back and say well what that really mean is that God really for saw he saw Wicked work and that is why God say he hated Esau. But but even though it is worded like that is God was not talking about the post means that we were talking about about Esau Wickedness that God forced on why God say he hated Esau.

Many a few come back with that. And so I was wondering I Was wondering with such language because it is worded very personal to me and I was wondering how would you Deal with somebody who said well, yes, it is what it like that, but it's not really referring to To them personally it what they actually mean is is is what God for saw he and and and God for saw the evil Life the evil works and that is what really God was speaking to me Concern and the evil work of those who were wicked and that sort of stuff, but on the issue quickly like to say I Downloaded from monogysm book a sermon by well a series on hell by but on hell by Edward Donnelly and I think it was the one that says that I say what will it be like if we fall into hell?

Where Edward Donnelly said a scholar made a Study of 33 places in the Bible where God hatred is spoken of and he said Twelve of them according to the scholar was God hatred of sin. While 21 of them was was God hatred of sinner of the sinner.

Saying that it is much more stated in the Bible. God hate the sinner than what passages you would find saying God hates sin. I said we're gonna try that in a mix as well and and after how would you answer people if.

They mentioned that to you and yeah scriptures well when when when people respond in that way they are. They're speaking from their tradition. They have heard so many times God hates the sin, but loves the sinner and There isn't there is a germ of truth in regards to the fact that.

We ourselves and I think this is where the confusion comes in we ourselves have been Children of wrath. Ephesians chapter 2 says we were all children of wrath. We were all under the wrath of God and Yet Even while we're at sinners Christ died for us.

There is clearly an expression of love. There's a there's an in the creation of man the sustaining of man the the granting to even the most reprobate sinner the the joys of life the The beauty that one sees when one sees the sunrise or the sunset and feels the wind upon one's face because we're made in the image of God we experience these things and we experience love and Because the fact that we we tend to deny to God The ability to have different kinds of love or even to recognize that there are different levels and kinds of love and God's love.

Because all love is God's love and God's all love and all this mushiness that we have that we have imbibed from our traditions. We see those things we go. Oh, well, okay. Yeah. God's God's wrath must be directed solely toward this disembodied thing called sin rather than towards sinners.

Now, of course as The Assyrians came upon the Israelites I really doubt that the Israelites would have taken much comfort in that particular Way of trying to get around the reality of God's wrath and his hatred against sin and sinners.

But it's it's pretty easy in our in our situations to to come up with that. But the problem the problem is that the Bible doesn't divide man up into parts like that. Yes, there are times when Paul will talk about the our our sinful nature or issues like that.

But the reality is that When the scriptures talk about God hating sinners it's talking about sinners who love their sin and who are under the just wrath of God and that that is absolutely necessary for a truly holy being to detest that which is the opposite of his nature and God's wrath is not just some type of Anger it flows from his holiness and it's related.

It's related to his love. It's related to his justice is related to his holiness and it's only by dividing God up into parts. That we end up with this discombobulated inconsistent being that is the God of many Evangelicals in the Western world today and so if someone were to say that to me I would I would simply say well.

That may make you feel more comfortable. But that almost makes God less than less than man because we have the ability to express redemptive love and We also have the ability to express express lesser kinds of love without confusing them and yet when it comes to God We just don't evidently don't want to have put out the effort to recognize the one over the other and so I Would just challenge the the person's assertion the problem is you're dealing with people who have much more knowledge of their tradition than they did they normally do of the Word of God and like Dave Hunt they confuse their tradition with the Word of God and The only way around that is is is Bible study.

That is done. Always with an eye to challenging tradition, and there's just no other way to do it. There's no short easy answer. Especially when it comes to the love of God. But one of the things that has helped a few folks.

Anyways is when I've pointed out that The Gospel of John talks about the disciple that Jesus loved. Now does that mean Jesus didn't love the rest of the disciples. Of course right there was a special relationship that existed there.

Yeah, and so in the same way God loved Israel. Well does that mean he didn't have love for anybody else. No, he brought people into covenant relationship with him from outside of Israel. So the fact the matter is that that most people who at least still believe the Bible's Word of God.

You can give them examples and say doesn't that therefore tell you? That your your understanding the word love here is is it far too limited and You know Some will hear some will not you know as we've documented on this this program many many many times before.

Yes, go ahead. You see why. They have no problem in taking personally. The part of the vows that that we are God say he loved Jacob. They have a part that have problems in taking personally right the part that say he hate is and so they try to make it Impersonal right that how it is written in the post.

No, the problem is the problem is if the hatreds impersonal the love becomes impersonal. I mean, that's why in Arminianism the elect become this impersonal group rather than people who are personally loved.

And it really does diminish I think the personal aspect of the love of God and. So it's you know you have to be very very careful, but it's it's a matter of tradition. Gregory. That's that's where people are.

People are going with it all right. Quickly it's got to be real quick. We got the three other.

People say it is. The sins that we commit is what it told me the degree of of air that we choose and not carry. I said it is our sin nature that it told me that we're going to go ahead and not our sins.

We charge which in our sins it told me the degree of failure gonna suffer. What do you send that? Thank you? Okay, all right. Thank you Greg.

Yeah, one short. Yeah short short question I don't know that you can divide. Divide them up in that way if you're if you're saying. People say if you're if you're talking about people who say we're not sinners and until we sin.

Well, then that denies our federal headship and Adam and our relationship to him and the fact that we are born corrupt. If you're if you're asking well, what results in our being in hell our sinful nature or our sins.

The Bible doesn't make a distinction the simple nature results in the sins. I don't I just don't. I think that's trying to ask Questions that don't need to be necessarily asked which a lot of people do anyways.

Let's uh, let's go up and talk with Jeffrey. Yeah. Hello Jeffrey. Yes, sir. How are you? Good.

So I'm wondering about John 831 and 32, okay because. The second half of that sentence is quote a lot, you'll know the truth and the truth will set you free. But it's all part of the same sentence that starts with you by my word.

So should it be read if you abide my word, you're truly my disciples. And then Go back again and say if you're abiding my word. You will know the truth and if you abide my word the truth will set you free.

Is it is gene saying that abiding in his word? Is the part that sets you free or is it as people traditionally read it and say it's so annoying the truth.

It will set you free. Oh, well, yeah, it's it's one sentence and the the Chi at the beginning of verse 32 the and is is not disjunctive, so The only way to know the truth is to abide in his word. That's what makes you truly disciples and it's his disciples who know the truth and the truth sets you free remember.

He's talking to individuals Who in the preceding verse? Verse Versus 29 and after he has said in verse 29 and he who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone for I always do the things that are pleasing to him as he spoke these things many came to believe in him.

Well that term believe is In the aorist and in John that does not indicate Salvation it is a is a point-action type thing it's it's these the very same people who by the end of the chapter you'll be picking up stones to stone Jesus and so Jesus is exposing this type of false faith, which also is seen in John chapter 12 by People who believed in Jesus and yet they love the praise of men rather than praise of God.

These are not true believers. It's amazing. They're actually Christians out there to try to make them true believers. Anyways, so when he says to them who had believed him. So these false believers if you abide in my word Which they're not going to be doing abiding is a present tense action.

Their belief is a one-time thing you are truly my disciples and you will know the truth the truth will set you free so it's you can't divide it up and No one can know the truth. I mean what's who is the truth?

I mean, that's that's the whole point. This is I am the way the truth in life, so It's not just simply knowing truth that sets you free. It's knowing truth in Jesus Christ. It sets you free.

Right, and I kind of drew that parallel too, but it's like several chapters away. So I didn't want to be drawing things together.

Inappropriately. Well as long as long as the as the context doesn't militate against it. There are themes. Certainly the theme of truth and the theme of union with Christ starts all the way back in one.

So if it's a if it's a theme, yeah, that's fine. If you're if you're trying to get around something in a text by jumping to another text, that's a that's a different issue there's a. Sometimes a fine line of Honesty that has to be drawn at that point in doing proper exegesis.

But yeah, definitely you can't just you can't just say you will know the truth the truth and make you free. That's that is jumping in the middle of a sentence and avoiding the context.

Okay. Yeah. All right. Thank you, sir.

Okay. All right. God bless. Bye. Bye. Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. Let's talk with Tom. Hi Tom.

Tired Tom my question. I talked to you about apologetic frameworks. I think you were in Hawaii at the time if I remember right but. Anyway you recommended that I read Bonson Ventile and in those presuppositional authors and.

Since that time I've spent a lot of time with Bonson's always ready and greatly enjoyed it made tremendous sense. But full disclosure, and maybe I shouldn't admit this over the airwaves. I'm actually a Lutheran.

I've shared the approach with a lot of my.

Friends and and they looked at you and said you're trying to solve mysteries. You shouldn't be solving son among other things, uh-huh.

You may know that Lutheran circle especially LC a message is what I am tend to follow. Pretty pretty well. Lockstep with John Warwick Montgomery. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Evidential side of things. There hasn't been a lot of a lot of people that were pleased with that.

I Will say endorsement of presuppositional politics on my part there. Yes, but here's the thing.

I'm sure you can find something in Luther somewhere. Why don't you why don't you drop Carl Truman a note? He was lecturing on Luther today. It's at Southern Baptist at the Southern Baptist theological seminary.

So drop a note and say hey could you find me something in Luther that would allow me to make him look like a Presuppositions because let's face it you can find almost anything you want Luther.

But I will say I have even just reading the small catechism, I've found things from Luther that would totally stand behind. Yeah on that point. Explanation to the third article, excuse me. Third article of the Creed would be would be an example of that stuff in talking about it.

One of their objections to the approach that I just haven't been able to answer. Question. What do you do for someone who is where a transcendental arguments not necessarily going to do the job? Correspondence seems to be saying that Transcendental argument and the presuppositional approach can all Work well against Islam and these other theistic religions, but in my own thinking on it and reading I'm having a hard time seeing it.