Romney and Mormonism, Dan Barker's Fundamentalist Atheism

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

Opening Remarks and Recent Travel

Agamai welcome to the dividing line. Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. We are live today for the first time in a little while. Anyway, as those of you watching the blog know Very very busy last week.

I had brought a bunch of books with me I was gonna I was gonna work on Arabic vocabulary in the evening and I brought my patristic Greek reader and all the stuff I was good in the evening. I didn't do any of it because that was Probably the busiest week I've ever spent.

Jump out of bed in the morning and you're at it all day long and all evening preparing for the next day. It was it was a lot of work and well worth it and I'm looking forward very much to seeing the final results of the videotaping we were doing especially when those programs begin to air in Iran and or as the Iranians prefer in Persia and Those are being translated into Farsi you the first four programs.

We did we did live translation we decided that was gonna take way too long and Not produce the level of quality of translation that we wanted so I went solo from that point and then my Farsi translator will be coming back in January and Doing the translation separately at that time that will work better I think but then we did a number of programs that would translate into Arabic and other languages for Use in other Middle Eastern countries where I was able in those particular Programs to specifically address the subject of Islam and I hope that the Islamic audiences will will hear and Yeah, I know some may not really appreciate what I had to say.

But obviously we trust the Holy Spirit of God to use His word as it is proclaimed. So last week we weren't here on the dividing line and we are here this week of course. During our absences much goes on and In fact, one of the big things last week was the Mitt Romney speech not on religion.

Mormonism, Mitt Romney, and Public Discernment

That is he mentioned it and said a few things about it. But really didn't go into much in the way of depth. Obviously, I did not expect him to do so. But there were a couple of comments that were made that I think are worthy of our discussion.

Once again not discussing the merits of the man's candidacy, but of the amazing response of American media of conservative pundits of Evangelical pundits in regards the subject of Mormonism. It shouldn't be overly shocking after what we observed with the death of Pope John Paul the second.

That the level of discernment that is currently Displayed by post evangelicalism as a whole is hovering at about 1 and The level of lack of discernment at 99 It is an amazing thing to see how few people have any meaningful knowledge of Mormonism whatsoever.

Or can even do just a little bit of meaningful research in written documentation. It's not like the Mormons have hidden their beliefs. Yeah, you've got the secrecy of the temple ceremonies. But even then it would not take much much work to obtain the exact text of the Mormon temple ceremonies.

Even as they exist today or as they have gone back in history. But that seems to be far beyond what people are willing to do. They are much more concerned Evidently about other issues rather than the actual substance of Mormon theology.

Let's not require that people actually be consistent with the theological teachings of their church. Let's just let them sort of define things For themselves and so as a result there has been some just amazing statements that have been made and in this particular speech Mitt Romney makes a reference to his confession that Jesus is the Son of God and the Savior of Mankind and as a result various people went into apoplexy.

Isn't this wonderful Mormonism is now orthodox and I just want to sit here and beat myself in the forehead with a hammer.

It's like.

Evidently folks never talked to a Mormon missionary before in life. Have you you never read the Book of Mormon and Don't have a clue what you're talking about. But hey, that's Just I'm sorry, but I've stood on Sidewalks in Salt Lake City and sidewalks in Provo, Utah and sidewalks in Mesa, Arizona, and I have spoken with with thousands of Mormons and more of missionaries and for anyone to go Wow.

Mormons believe Jesus the Son of God and Savior of all Mankind. That must mean we could all just clasp hands and sing kumbaya cuz we all believe the same thing it just is enough to make you want to scream because It's like oh my goodness.

Can't anyone do some some research? So anyway, let's let's Let's listen to some of some of Mitt Romney's comments here and then we'll we'll make some comments stop and start here and of course take your phone calls eight seven seven seven five three three three four one and Let's listen in here not starting the neck of the listen.

The whole thing is only ten minutes long. You can fit it in one Unsponsored YouTube clip but.

Here's the the heart of the of what was what was said. There are some for whom these commitments are not enough. They would prefer it if I would simply distance myself from my religion. Say that it's more a tradition than my personal conviction or disavow one or another of its precepts.

That I will not do. I Believe in my Mormon faith and I endeavor to live by it. My faith is the faith of my father's. I will be true to them and to my beliefs.

Now I Honestly do not have any problem. I I would not expect a Mormon to not be a Mormon. In any way shape or form. In fact, I would rather Honestly, I would rather Mitt Romney were more of a Mormon in what he's saying.

Honestly, I would rather that he comes straight out and that he tell us what his church believes stand behind it and say I'm willing to defend this but that's not what I'm called to do if you want to talk to the General Authorities the Mormon Church.

I've got relatives who are or were and. But here I stand. I can do no other. I respect that and he even says, you know. Later on that, you know people well, in fact that that's that's the very next section.

Let me let me let him say it for himself here.

Some believe that such a confession of my faith will sink my candidacy if they're right so be it. But I think they underestimate the American people. Americans do not respect respecters, excuse me believers of convenience.

Americans tire of those who would jettison their beliefs even to gain the world.

Well, I Think that's a little bit more of a wish than a reality. I'm gonna have to admit. I'm a little bit more skeptical Than mr. Romney about the American culture as a whole.

I.

Think that there are certain beliefs that Make you unelectable today and They are beliefs that were held very firmly and very strongly by previous generations. But I think today if there are certain if you are open and up front about certain things Do you believe I think and if you act in light of them and say you're gonna consistently act in light of them?

You're you're not gonna name gonna happen. You're not gonna be elected. And I think that The American people elect people every single election cycle who have done exactly what Romney says here. They have run from their religion.

They are not consistent with it they are they they are respecters of public opinion polls much more than they are of their personal faith and That's just the way things are. But if he really believes this then I don't know what he means later on.

He starts talking about no political candidate should be disqualified for his religious beliefs if you're talking about running. Yeah, okay. That's one thing but I think the context is that a person should not take these things in consideration in determining whether they're going to vote for such a person and That would make me go.

Wait a minute if if your religious faith is just an addendum It's just an add-on it can be Separated out as if it's not a part of who you are and how you make decisions. That's not a good thing. That's not what Christians believe at least it's not what Christians are supposed to believe anyway.

But so I found a little bit of a level of inconsistency at that point. There is one fundamental question about which I'm often asked. What do I believe about Jesus Christ?

Well, here we go. Here is the main reason I wanted to address this this issue because who is Jesus Christ according to Mormonism. And once again not having to exaggerate not having to Use non-official sources if you simply go to the official teachings of the LDS Church the consistent testimony of the the prophets of the church the members the first presidency of the church the 12 Apostles of the church the general authorities of the church as it has been presented over and over and over again in The general conferences of the LDS Church in the priesthood manuals in the presentations the missionaries.

Not having to change anything at all. Who is Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the first begotten spirit child of an exalted man from the planet by the name of Elohim and Elohim was once a man who lived on another planet and when he died he was resurrected and considered worthy to Obtain to the resurrection and to bring his wives with him and to organize this planet and his firstborn spirit son.

Was Jesus the Christ? Another of his spirit children was Lucifer. All of us are the spiritual offspring of Elohim and his plural wives in heaven and you can walk into any LDS Chapel today pick up the hymnal and I can point you to the hymn that talks about your heavenly mothers.

It's there. This isn't hidden in the dark in the corner someplace. We're not having to lie about it. This is LDS belief. Mormonism is a polytheistic religion. They may say that there is one God for this planet what they mean by that is actually three gods Elohim Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost.

But the point is that there was a God before Elohim and there will be many gods after Elohim. Not only will Jesus have an opportunity for full exaltation to godhood in the opinion of most Mormons anyways.

And possibly even his own planet, but a worthy Mormon male likewise. Has that opportunity to gain exaltation and to take his wife? Currently not really consistent with the wives idea. But that's sort of a problem with history with Mormonism and to organize his own planet.

Raise up spiritual seed and start the process all over again now as the god of that planet if Mitt Romney is Faithful to his marriage vows his temple vows which he has taken it is his belief that he someday Will be found worthy enough to be fed to be made a god and to be worshipped By his offspring on another planet now again.

Don't know how much more clearly we can put this. We have documented this to the hilt from LDS sources not from anti-mormon sources but from the sources themselves of the LDS Church from the official teachings of the church and Therefore we are accurately representing the teachings.

This is what is being said now. I don't care if you're a politician. I fully understand the ideas. Fully understand the ideas of a politician not wanting to discuss what he's really saying. About who Jesus Christ is when he says Jesus Christ is the Son of God there is a historical Christian meaning to that and there is a historical Mormon meaning to that and The two are not the same.

The two are very very very different from one another. When Christians confess that Jesus is the Son of God they are talking about his divine origin that he is truly God. That he is eternally born that relationship to the father and that we are talking about one creator God who is self-existent.

Mormonism has no self-existent deity. Every deity in Mormonism was dependent upon the preceding deity for his own exaltation and So to say I believe that she is the Son of God for a Mormon is Just as different when a Mormon talks about eternal lives.

When we talk about eternal life. We talk about eternal life. We're talking about the free gift of God through Jesus Christ Forgiveness of our sins and the fact that we will never experience eternal death the Mormon is talking about eternal lives.

Which is the capacity of the exalted being who is now a God to procreate offspring for eternity. Not exactly the same belief is it. And despite all the efforts of Robert Millett and the folks at farms and the silly Evangelicals who are aiding them and abetting them in confusing people about the teachings of Mormonism.

That is the historic LDS belief. Now if the prophet wants to come out tomorrow and say we abjure we deny Joseph Smith as a prophet we deny Brigham Young as a prophet we deny everybody through Spencer Kimball and Ezra Taft Benson were prophets.

We repent of our polytheism and we embrace the truth. Hallelujah, that's wonderful. But until that happens we are talking about a Religion that is as far removed from Christianity as it possibly can be folks.

We are talking about a religion. That is less like biblical Christianity than Islam is. You hear me because at the fundamental most definitional level of religion is whether you believe there is one true creator God or whether you don't and At least Islam does believe that and then talks about Jesus in a heretical fashion.

From there Mormonism doesn't even get as far as the Muslims do. They start with a fundamental denial of what defines biblical Christianity and so whatever else. These words he is about to say mean. They don't mean what Christians believe and therefore.

When Christians hear this and out of ignorance go. Oh, that's wonderful. This is so much better than I thought I thought he was gonna tell us that Jesus is a polygamist You know or some some statement like that then they're just demonstrating.

They haven't taken the time to do the first bit of research into what it is. They are talking about I.

Believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Savior of mankind. My church's beliefs about Christ may not all be the same as those of other faiths. Each religion has its own unique doctrines and history.

That evidently is all we're going to get in regards to the fundamental objection that people have had. To the entire issue of Mormonism. Well, my church's beliefs may not all be the same. In fact specifically let me quote it directly from the Mitt Romney website.

My church's beliefs about Christ may not all be the same as those of other faiths. Each religion has its own unique doctrines in history. Well I'm sorry, but that's that that's Pure politics, but it doesn't do much good for truth and politics rarely does actually do much good for truth.

To say that my church's beliefs about Christ may not all be the same as those of other faiths is really I think to. This is where I wish she'd be more Mormon. I wish she'd be more consistent. That's not what Joseph Smith said.

Joseph Smith was very plain in the canonized scriptures the LDS Church in Saying that God said all those other faiths the Baptists the Presbyterians the Methodists the primary Three Protestant denominations and upstate New York at that particular point in time.

That their creeds were abomination their professors were corrupt. Their creeds and abomination they draw near to me with their mouths their their hearts are far from me. These were the statements that allegedly God made a Joseph Smith now I admit that there is no real reason to believe that that ever happened and in fact Joseph Smith gives all sorts of reasons for.

Not believing that ever happened. He didn't live where he say lived at the time and the revival wasn't 1820s 1824. And there's all sorts of issues like that, but the fact matter is that's what the LDS scriptures.

Which Mitt Romney as a as a good Mormon would have been presenting to people on his mission and so on so forth. That's what they that's what they say, and they don't say well we differ slightly. That may be what the missionaries say today.

But you'll notice that their numbers are way way way way down. And there's that's probably one of the main reasons their numbers are way way way down is. Because they have adopted this more wishy-washy Way of presenting things at least some of them have there are still some good old-time Mormons out there that actually believe that what they say is true and What they're believing is true but that's they unfortunately are not the major the majority any longer and You have this kind of presentation, but that's all we're gonna get and if you were hoping for you know some description.

That says well There's there's more To this and you know this is why we differ from Historic Christian doctrines about the nature of God. I didn't expect that I didn't expect at all. I would have been pleasantly surprised.

But I didn't expect that at all and that of course isn't what we got.

Religious Tolerance, Political Honesty, and Mormon Identity

These are not bases for criticism, but rather a test of our tolerance. Religious tolerance would be a shallow principle indeed if it were reserved only for faiths with which we agree.

Well, what does that mean? I don't know what that means I mean if you mean religious tolerance and the fact that Mormons Need to have the freedom to practice their religion under the Constitution United States, okay, that's fine.

But I thought we were talking about electing a president here. And I thought we were talking about what goes into making those decisions as to whether we elect a president and for me Openness and honesty about what one believes is sort of important along those lines.

Obviously, I think that the vast majority of folks in our government are a bunch of pagans. And all you got to do is watch all the sex scandals hitting the Senate and the House Representatives and at just look at some of the people in the House representatives, you know who are open homosexuals like that.

They're bunch pagans. They're unbelievers. They're they're the the biblical term is reprobates. Okay, that's all there is to it. So In the vast majority of instances the only people who are running for an office are pagans.

So that's not really the issue. The issue for me is is someone honest about what they actually believe and the Romney name is one that you can't you can't compromise. Here, I mean this man is related to general authorities of the LDS Church.

He's not he's not ignorant of what Mormonism teaches and I'll bet you dollars doughnuts. He knows Exactly what the differences are between the Mormons and they say son of God and Historic Christianity when it says son of God, he knows what those things are.

He's not ignorant of Bruce R McConkie, he's not ignorant of Joseph Fielding Smith. He's read articles of faith and marvelous work in a wonder I'm not making this stuff up. Go read like LeGrand riches for yourself.

That was the milieu in which he was raised. So he hasn't forgotten all that stuff, it's still very much a part of who he is. But once you become a presidential candidate or in especially in his case governor of Massachusetts for crying out loud.

You really have to start massaging things, you know a little nuance comes into what you're saying. So I'm not sure when it says that these are not bases for criticism. You mean you shouldn't criticize.

You shouldn't you shouldn't engage in apologetics. Well, that would certainly be. What many people you know? Wouldn't want us to hear but let's listen to the rest of it and then we'll oh, I thought there was a phone call there.

And it it went poofy and there was even a name there and then it stopped being a name there. So, oh well.

Distinctive Claims of Mormonism and the Meaning of the Son of God

There's some who would have a presidential candidate. Describe and explain his church's distinctive doctrines. Um, I wouldn't mind that.

And he's about to say that he disagrees that but there's I think one reason why that Certainly be nice in this situation and as because he's a member of a religion With a long history of claiming to be the only true church While varying at a fundamental level from all the other churches that claim the same name as his.

So I think there is something about Mormonism that would require You know if he really wants people to know where he's standing a little bit of explanation.

But he feels that that's improper. To do so would enable the very religious test. The founders prohibited in the Constitution no candidate should become the spokesman for his faith. For if he becomes president, he will need the prayers of the people of all faiths.

Well, okay. I I understand what was I understand his statement that point? I'm not asking him to become a spokesman for his faith. However, that's not the same thing as addressing the specific beliefs of his faith and or at least Pointing people to those who would speak and define these things from an official perspective.

I mean, he certainly has the connections that he could get somebody to do that if they wanted to. But you know Mormonism is in a tough spot these days. I mean Amazingly enough Harry Reid's Mormon. Now, there's a situation where If you want somebody I I mean I was actually surprised when I heard that and you know.

Why. Because the policies that Harry Reid promotes? I can't see how any honest Mormon on the planet would ever do that. I mean that's because I know the theology of Mormonism and I know where Mormonism has stood over the years and I'm left going.

Really?

Okay. Well. Mm-hmm. That's that's a I didn't know that. I honestly didn't know that. I honestly did not know that. That he was a member in good standing the LDS Church. I can guarantee you one thing.

50 years ago. It wouldn't have been 50 years ago. It wouldn't have been oh, no way Jose would that have ever happened? But anyway, so.

Then there was applause and he continues. I believe I believe that every faith I've encountered draws its adherence closer to God and Every faith I've come to know there are features. I wish were in my own.

Okay, this is where. Look at it rich. Come by all my lord. Come on. We could have skipped this part good me. Yeah, I was like, oh man, I Got pretty bad at that point. When when he. I'm sorry. But at this point I honestly, you know, maybe this is the new voice of Mormonism.

But this is not the voice of old-time Mormonism when he says I believe that every faith I have encountered draws its adherence closer to God. Excuse me. Really I Don't see how anybody can fit that with Mormonism at all.

How do you fit that with anything Christian at all? You mean you mean Islam draws its adherence closer to God? By denying who Jesus is by denying that Jesus is the Son of God the Savior of mankind. That's drawing you closer to God.

Buddhism which is in essence an atheistic philosophical system draws you closer to God. Hinduism draws you closer to God. To Vishnu and Shivna.

I'm.

Mmm, I don't think so. I would call atheism Especially a Dawkins form or Hitchens form of atheism a Dan Barker freedom from religion for religion of atheism. These are very religious groups very religious movements.

Their religion is the hatred of God, but it's still religion and these draw people closer. No, of course not. Of course not this is the. This is the pluralism that is required of modern American politicians.

You need to say nice things about Viewpoints and perspectives that actually don't deserve to have anything nice said about in the first place. That's how you show your That openness, you know and things like that so that That's okay.

By the way, let me just stop right here. I noticed it's a Summer just came in channel and I had gotten a text message. That's. She had missed last Thursday and So once so since she wasn't there Carter took an opportunity to go after both her and I in class.

That way it doesn't get recorded so he doesn't have to listen to it Someday in the future. Yeah, so I'm just about to get a Yeah, yeah. He was talking about both of us so I'm gonna I'm gonna look forward to hearing the students reports, especially as I write my letter to the district board About the behavior of dr. Lee Carter and things like that.

So just just unbelievable. But that he would wait until she's not there. I mean There's somebody with a spine made out of wet linguine, isn't it? Anyway, just happen to see I coming up so I thought I would I would Mention that in passing but now I was very disappointed that point this this was when you start talking about Well in this next part really gets bad okay, so this is if you have like a diabetic problem or something be careful here because the sweetness of this might just.

Push you right over the edge. You might want to get your your insulin ready. I love the profound ceremony of the Catholic Mass the approachability of God in the prayers of the evangelicals the tenderness of spirit among the Pentecostals The confident independence of the Lutherans the ancient traditions of the Jews Unchanged to the ages and the commitment to frequent prayer of the Muslims.

Oh, I.

Don't know about you, but I just I I just feel so so warm and and I just want to hug something.

You know, I think what I'm trying to picture how this speech came together. Because I can see the handlers leaning over his shoulder as he's writing it. Yes, and it's going. Okay, the LDS Church is the one true church on earth today.

Okay, mr. Romney. We'd like to rephrase that Into the things that you see good in other faiths and. You know see see what you can do with that. No, no, sir. Not not that. No, let me write it for you.

Right now say this. Yeah, he still had to say it himself, man. He still had to say he still had to choke these words down and that is choking it down. I'm sorry, but that kind of I Don't know even what to how to describe that.

That's not even spin. That's just that. That's just the confident independence of the Lutherans. What on earth is that? I what. Where did that come from? What. And I love the the frequent prayer of the Muslims.

That's I.

Wonder. I do wonder how long they sat around going. All right. Which religions do we want to put in here to show how wide open our minds are and say something nice about what? Can we say nice about the Muslims and who was the guy who came up with the Lutheran one?

Just.

Wow amazing stuff, but um anyway, there's the essence of the of the presentation and.

I.

No one is commenting on this. I'm not sure why at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one and oh, you know what? We've gone zooming right past our our break time here. You're ready to go.

You are ready to go. All right. Well, we will let all those folks who've been sitting there Just mesmerized by our Ritchie repartee.

Call eight seven seven seven five three three three four one and we'll be right back everyone. This is Rich Pierce.

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Dan Barker, Atheist Mockery, and Fundamentalist Atheism

And welcome back to the dividing line 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. Your opportunity to sound off on the discussion of Mormonism in our context or other things. Certainly you've seen the videos on the blog on Islam we have been discussing that obviously there are always new developments about it that all the time just to fill you all in.

My daughter just had her last class with dr. Carter and Evidently she missed last Thursday. And so a bunch of students were coming up to her Today to let her know that a large portion of the class on Thursday was spent attacking her and me.

Yes yours truly I am the one of course that dr. Carter will not respond to he has never even had the courtesy of the kindness To respond to any of my emails. He will not debate. He will not discuss he will not dialogue because he is protecting the Academy of course and yet I allegedly am a coward and he of course believes that he can do these things with impunity because he warns people at the beginning Of the semester that if they are Christian, they're going to be challenged.

Well, I don't have a Bit of a problem with a Christian being challenged, but you see dr. Lee Carr doesn't seem to understand the way he's doing. He's not challenging anybody. Mocking Christianity is not challenging Christianity.

Demonstrating that you don't know a bit of what you're talking about that you are ignorant of biblical languages ignorant of biblical history. That you don't have any grounds about which the standing could never defend your theses.

In front of anyone who knew what they were talking about is not challenging Christianity. It's just demonstrating that you are a bigot. That you're prejudiced and that you should not be teaching any class anywhere that's all that's demonstrating and Dr. Lee Carter knows he could never debate these issues.

He knows he could not back up the vast majority of the things he says about biblical Christianity in his in his Classes, that's why he will not debate and so how that makes me a coward when he will not Engage these topics in front of his students.

He won't do a debate there and on the campus or nearby the campus. Won't even have the courtesy to respond to challenges. But instead chooses to get upset with 18 year old freshman students in the class While alleging out of ignorance that their parents have lied to them.

That's a that's a pretty sad situation to be to be facing in what's called professional academia today but that is the nature of things so the last time I had heard him lecturing he was talking about fundamentalists as the religiously insane and things like that, so that's just an example of the kind of Religious bigotry and hatred you have being expressed With our tax dollars in fact in the name of the freedom of the Academy.

Obviously if I were to say something like that as I was teaching I would be dismissed immediately, but that's how that goes so. That is is rather rather interesting. I'll get some more details from from my daughter as time goes by.

Maybe we'll have her on the program. She was on Before with Gary DeMar and so maybe we might do something like that now the class is over and I'll be writing a very lengthy letter to the entire board of the Maricopa County Community Colleges to See if again they support this kind of activity.

And if they would support this activity if it was aimed at Muslim students I would I would like to know if it would be fair for For that to take place, or if this is just something that is okay for Christians.

Christians can be treated in this way. But Muslim students and others are protected by the Code of Professional Conduct shall we say so anyway along the same lines. We this morning I was driving in and I was listening to Jay Sekulow and they played a song From the freedom from religion foundation now.

I don't remember how long ago It was now. I think it was probably around 19. Really that late. I thought it was even earlier than that because I as I recall I was I was I I was only in Bible College and This was I think the middle 1980s that I had a fair amount of dialogue with Dan Barker Who is the co-founder of the freedom from religion foundation because I was on with Tom like us at that time with Dan Barker and With his significant other at that time who is still his significant other.

Long afterwards boy was she something to talk to afterwards, but I was as I recall 21 years of age. So that would make it around 84. Yeah, I was really really. And I exchanged some letters of Dan Barker.

Dan Barker very bright fellow. He was also at that time very arrogant. In that he you know want everybody to know that he was a concert level pianist that he had helped design the railroad Switching mechanisms in the Northeast which it's that's that takes some brainpower to you know keep them from running to each other.