Romney and Mormonism, Dan Barker's Fundamentalist Atheism

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

White call now. It's 602 973 460 to or toll -free across the

United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

James white Hey, boy, welcome to the dividing line 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1

We are live today for the first time in a little while. Anyway, as Those of you watching the blog know

Very very busy last week. I had brought a bunch of books with me I was gonna I was gonna work on Arabic vocabulary in the evening and I brought my patristic

Greek reader and all the stuff I was good in the evening. I didn't do any of it because that was

Probably the busiest week I've ever spent Jump out of bed in the morning and you're at it all day long and all evening preparing for the next day

It was it was a lot of work and well worth it and I'm looking forward very much to seeing the final results of the videotaping we were doing especially when those programs begin to air in Iran and or as the

Iranians prefer in Persia and Those are being translated into Farsi the first four programs.

We did we did live translation. We decided that was gonna take way too long and Not produce the level of quality of translation that we wanted so I went solo from that point and then my

Farsi translator will be coming back in January and Doing the translation separately at that time that will work better I think but then we did a number of programs that would translate into Arabic and other languages for Use in other

Middle Eastern countries where I was able in those particular Programs to specifically address the subject of Islam and I hope that the

Islamic audiences will will hear and Yeah, I know some may not really appreciate what

I had to say But obviously we trust the Holy Spirit of God to use His word as it is proclaimed.

So last week we weren't here on the dividing line and we are here this week of course

During our absences much goes on and In fact, one of the big things last week was the

Mitt Romney speech not on religion That is he mentioned it and said a few things about it, but really

Didn't go into much in the way of depth Obviously, I did not expect him to do so But there were a couple of comments that were made that I think are worthy of our discussion

Once again not discussing the merits of the man's candidacy, but of the amazing response of American media of conservative pundits of Evangelical pundits in regards the subject of Mormonism It shouldn't be overly shocking after what we observed with the death of Pope John Paul the second

That the level of discernment that is currently Displayed by post evangelicalism as a whole is hovering at about 1 % and The level of lack of discernment at 99 %

It is an amazing thing to see how few people have any meaningful knowledge of Mormonism whatsoever

Or can even do just a little bit of meaningful research in written documentation

It's not like the Mormons have hidden their beliefs. Yeah, you've got the secrecy of the temple ceremonies

But even then it would not take much much work to obtain the exact text of the

Mormon temple ceremonies even as they exist today Or as they have gone back in history But that seems to be far beyond what people are willing to do.

They are much more concerned Evidently about other issues rather than the actual substance of Mormon theology

Let's not require that people actually be consistent with the theological teachings of their church.

Let's just let them sort of define things For themselves and so as a result there has been some just amazing statements that have been made and in this particular speech

Mitt Romney makes a reference to his confession that Jesus is the

Son of God and the Savior of Mankind and as a result of various people went into apoplexy

Isn't this wonderful Mormonism is now Orthodox, and I just want to sit here and beat myself in the forehead with a hammer

It's like Evidently you folks never talked to a Mormon missionary before in life. Have you you never read the

Book of Mormon and Don't have a clue what you're talking about, but hey, that's Just I'm sorry, but I've stood on Sidewalks in Salt Lake City and sidewalks in Provo, Utah and sidewalks in Mesa, Arizona, and I have spoken with with thousands of Mormons and more of missionaries and for anyone to go

Wow Mormons believe Jesus the Son of God and Savior of all Mankind that must mean we can all just Clasp hands and sing kumbaya cuz we all believe the same thing it just is enough to make you want to scream because It's like oh my goodness can't anyone do some some research so anyway let's let's

Let's listen to some of some of Mitt Romney's comments here And then we'll we'll make some comments stop and start here and of course take your phone calls eight seven seven seven five three three three four one and Let's listen in here not starting the whole thing is only ten minutes long you can fit it in one

Unsponsored YouTube clip, but Here's the the heart of the of what was what was said there are some for whom these commitments are not enough

They would prefer it if I would simply distance myself from my religion Say that it's more a tradition than my personal conviction or disavow one or another of its precepts

That I will not do I Believe in my Mormon faith, and I endeavor to live by it

My faith is the faith of my father's I will be true to them and to my beliefs now

I Honestly do not have any problem I I would not expect a

Mormon to not be a Mormon in any way shape or form in fact I would rather honestly

I would rather Mitt Romney were more of a Mormon in what he's saying Honestly I would rather that he comes straight out and That he tell us what his church believes stand behind it and say

I'm willing to defend this But that's not what I'm called to do if you want to talk to the

General Authorities the Mormon Church I've got relatives who are or were and But here

I stand I can do no other I respect that and he even says you know

Later on that you know people well in fact that that's that's the very next section Let me let me let him say it for himself here

Some believe that such a confession of my faith will sink my candidacy if they're right so be it

But I think they underestimate the American people Americans do not respect respecters excuse me believers of convenience

Americans tire of those who would jettison their beliefs even to gain the world well,

I Think that's a little bit more of a wish than a reality. I'm gonna have to admit.

I'm a little bit more skeptical Than mr.. Romney about the American culture as a whole

I think that there are certain beliefs that Make you unelectable today, and they are beliefs that were held very firmly and very strongly by previous generations

But I think today if there are certain if you are open and upfront about certain things Do you believe I think and if you act in light of them and say you're gonna consistently act in light of them?

You're you're not gonna. Yeah, I'm gonna happen. You're not gonna be elected And I think that The American people elect people every single election cycle who have done exactly what

Romney says here They have run from their religion. They are not consistent with it they are they they are respecters of public opinion polls much more than they are of their personal faith and That's just the way things are but if he really believes this then

I don't know what he means later on He starts talking about no political candidate should be disqualified for his religious beliefs if you're talking about running

Yeah, okay That's one thing but I think the context is that a person should not take these things in consideration in determining whether they're going to vote for such a person and That would make me go wait a minute if if your religious faith is just an addendum

It's just an add -on it can be Separated out as if it's not a part of who you are and how you make decisions

That's not a good thing that's not what Christians believe at least it's not what Christians are supposed to believe anyway

But so I found a little bit of a level of inconsistency at that point. There is one fundamental question about which

I'm often asked What do I believe about Jesus Christ? Well here we go here is the main reason

I wanted to address this this issue because who is Jesus Christ according to Mormonism and once again not having to exaggerate not having to Use non -official sources if you simply go to the official teachings of the

LDS Church the consistent testimony of the the prophets of the church the members the first presidency of the church the 12

Apostles of the church the general authorities of the church as it has been presented over and over and over again in The general conferences of the

LDS Church in the priesthood manuals in the presentations the missionaries Not having to change anything at all who is

Jesus Christ Jesus Christ is the first begotten spirit child of an exalted man from the planet by the name of Elohim and Elohim was once a man who lived on another planet and when he died he was resurrected and considered worthy to Obtain to the resurrection and to bring his wives with him and to organize this planet and his firstborn spirit son

Was Jesus the Christ? another of his spirit children was Lucifer all of us are the spiritual offspring of Elohim and his plural wives in heaven and you can walk into any

LDS Chapel today pick up the hymnal and I can point you to the hymn that talks about your heavenly mothers

It's there. This isn't hidden in the dark in the corner someplace. We're not having to lie about it.

This is LDS belief Mormonism is a polytheistic religion. They may say that there is one

God for this planet what they mean by that is actually three gods Elohim Jesus Christ and the

Holy Ghost But the point is that there was a God before Elohim and there will be many gods after Elohim Not only will

Jesus have an opportunity for full exaltation to godhood in the opinion of most Mormons anyways And possibly even his own planet, but a worthy

Mormon male likewise Has that opportunity to gain exaltation and to take his wife?

Currently not really consistent with the wives idea But that's sort of a problem with history with Mormonism and to organize his own planet

Raise up spiritual seed and start the process all over again now as the god of that planet if Mitt Romney is

Faithful to his marriage vows his temple vows which he has taken it is his belief that he someday

Will be found worthy enough to be fed to be made a god and to be worshipped

By his offspring on another planet now again Don't know how much more clearly we can put this we have documented this to the hilt from LDS sources not from anti -mormon sources but from the sources themselves of the

LDS Church from the official teachings of the church and Therefore we are accurately representing the teachings.

This is what is being said now I Don't care if you're a politician.

I fully understand the ideas Fully understand the ideas of a politician not wanting to discuss what he's really saying

About who Jesus Christ is when he says Jesus Christ is the Son of God there is a historical

Christian meaning to that and there is a historical Mormon meaning to that and The two are not the same

The two are very very very different from one another When Christians confess that Jesus is the

Son of God they're talking about his divine origin that he is truly God But he is eternally born that relationship to the father and that we are talking about one creator

God who is self -existent Mormonism has no self -existent deity

Every deity in Mormonism was depend upon the preceding deity for his own exaltation and So to say

I believe that she is the Son of God for a Mormon is Just as different when a Mormon talks about eternal lives when we talk about eternal life

We talk about eternal life We're talking about the free gift of God through Jesus Christ Forgiveness of our sins and the fact that we will never experience eternal death the

Mormon is talking about eternal lives Which is the capacity of the exalted being who is now a

God to procreate offspring for eternity not exactly the same belief is it and despite all the efforts of Robert Millett and the folks at farms and the silly

Evangelicals who are aiding them and abetting them in confusing people about the teachings of Mormonism That is the historic

LDS belief now if the prophet wants to come out tomorrow and say we abjure we deny

Joseph Smith as a prophet we deny Brigham Young as a prophet we deny everybody through Spencer Kimball and Ezra Taft Benson were prophets we repent of our polytheism and we embrace the truth

Hallelujah, that's wonderful but until that happens we are talking about a

Religion that is as far removed from Christianity as it possibly can be folks

We are talking about a religion. That is less like biblical Christianity than Islam is

You hear me because at the fundamental most definitional level of religion is whether you believe there is one true creator

God or whether you don't and At least Islam does believe that and then talks about Jesus in a heretical fashion from there

Mormonism doesn't even get as far as the Muslims do They start with a fundamental denial of what defines biblical

Christianity and so whatever else These words he is about to say mean

They don't mean what Christians believe and therefore When Christians hear this and out of ignorance go.

Oh, that's wonderful This is so much better than I thought I thought he was gonna tell us that Jesus is a polygamist You know or some some statement like that then they're just demonstrating

They haven't taken the time to do the first bit of research into what it is.

They are talking about. I Believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the

Savior of mankind My church's beliefs about Christ may not all be the same as those of other faiths each religion has its own unique doctrines and history

That evidently is all we're going to get in regards to the fundamental objection that people have had

To the entire issue of Mormonism. Well, my church's beliefs may not all be the same

In fact specifically let me quote it directly from the Mitt Romney website My church's beliefs about Christ may not all be the same as those of other faiths each religion has its own unique doctrines in history well

I'm sorry, but that's that that's Pure politics, but it doesn't do much good for truth and politics rarely does actually do much good for truth

To say that my church's beliefs about Christ may not all be the same as those of other faiths is really

I think to This is where I wish she'd be more Mormon. I wish she'd be more consistent That's not what

Joseph Smith said Joseph Smith was very plain in the canonized scriptures the

LDS Church in Saying that God said all those other faiths the Baptists the

Presbyterians the Methodists the primary three Protestant denominations and upstate New York at that particular point in time

That their creeds or abomination their professors were corrupt Their creeds and abomination they draw near to me with their mouths their their hearts are far from me

These were the statements that allegedly God made a Joseph Smith now I admit that there is no real reason to believe that that ever happened and in fact

Joseph Smith gives all sorts of reasons for not Believing that ever happened He didn't live where he say lived at the time and the revival wasn't 1820s at age 24

And there's all sorts of issues like that, but the fact matter is that's what the LDS scriptures Which Mitt Romney as a as a good

Mormon would have been presenting to people on his mission and so on so forth That's what they that's what they say, and they don't say well we differ slightly

That may be what the missionaries say today But you'll notice that their numbers are way way way way down And there's that's probably one of the main reasons their numbers are way way way down is

Because they have adopted this more wishy -washy way of presenting things at least some of them have there are still some good old -time

Mormons out there that actually believe that what they say is true, and that what they're believing is true but that's they unfortunately are not the major the majority any longer and You have this kind of presentation, but that's all we're gonna get and if you were hoping for you know some description

That says well There's there's more To this and you know this is why we differ

From historic Christian doctrines about the nature of God. I didn't expect that I didn't expect at all

I would have been pleasantly surprised But I didn't expect that at all and that of course isn't what we got

These are not bases for criticism, but rather a test of our tolerance Religious tolerance would be a shallow principle indeed if it were reserved only for faiths with which we agree

Well what does that mean, I don't know what that means I mean if you mean religious tolerance and the fact that Mormons Need to have the freedom to practice their religion under the

Constitution United States, okay, that's fine But I thought we were talking about electing a president here

And I thought we were talking about what goes into making those decisions as to whether we elect a president and for me

Openness and honesty about what one believes is sort of important along those lines Obviously I think that the vast majority of folks in our government are a bunch of pagans

And all you got to do is watch all the sex scandals hitting the Senate in the House Representatives and at just look at some of the people in the

House representatives. You know who are open homosexuals like that. They're bunch pagans They're unbelievers.

They're they're the the biblical term is reprobates. Okay, that's all there is to it so In the vast majority of instances the only people who are running for an office are pagans

So that's not really the issue the issue for me is is someone honest about what they actually believe and the

Romney name is one That you can't you can't compromise here. I mean this man is related to General authorities of the

LDS Church. He's not he's not ignorant of what Mormonism teaches and I'll bet you dollars doughnuts.

He knows exactly what the differences are between the Mormons and they say son of God and Historic Christianity when it says son of God, he knows what those things are.

He's not ignorant of Bruce R McConkie, he's not ignorant of Joseph Fielding Smith. He's read articles of faith and marvelous work in a wonder

I'm not making this stuff up. Go read like LeGrand riches for yourself. That was the milieu in which he was raised

So he hasn't forgotten all that stuff It's still very much a part of who he is But once you become a presidential candidate or especially in his case governor of Massachusetts for crying out loud

You really have to start massaging things, you know a little nuance comes into what you're saying

So I'm not sure when it says these are not bases for criticism. You mean you shouldn't criticize

You shouldn't you shouldn't engage in apologetics. Well, that would certainly be What many people you know?

Wouldn't want us to hear but let's listen to the rest of it and then we'll oh, I thought there was a phone call there

And it it went poofy and there was even a name there and then it stopped being a name there. So, oh well

There's some who would have a presidential candidate Describe and explain his church's distinctive doctrines.

Um, I wouldn't mind that And he's about to say that he disagrees that but there's

I think one reason why that Certainly be nice in this situation and as because he's a member of a religion

With a long history of claiming to be the only true church While varying at a fundamental level from all the other churches that claim the same name as his

So I think there is something about Mormonism that would require You know if he really wants people to know where he's standing a little bit of explanation

But he feels that that's improper to do so would enable the very religious test

The founders prohibited in the Constitution. No candidate should become the spokesman for his faith

For if he becomes president, he will need the prayers of the people of all faiths well, okay,

I Understand what was I understand his statement that point? I'm not asking him to become a spokesman for his faith.

However That's not the same thing as addressing the specific beliefs of his faith and or at least

Pointing people to those who would speak and define these things from an official perspective

I mean, he certainly has the connections that he could get somebody to do that if they wanted to But you know

Mormonism is in a tough spot these days. I mean Amazingly enough Harry Reid's Mormon Now There's a situation where?

if you want somebody I I mean I was actually surprised when

I heard that and you know why because the policies that Harry Reid promotes I can't see how any honest

Mormon on the planet would ever do that I mean that's because I know the theology of Mormonism and I know where Mormonism has stood over the years and I'm left going

Really? Okay. Well, um That's that's a

I didn't know that I honestly didn't know that I honestly did not know that That he was a member in good standing the

LDS Church. I can guarantee you one thing 50 years ago. It wouldn't have been 50 years ago. I wouldn't have been oh, no way

Jose would that have ever happened? But anyway, so Then there was applause and he continues.

I believe I believe that every faith I've encountered draws its adherence closer to God And every faith

I've come to know there are features. I wish were my own Okay, this is where Look at it rich Come by all my lord

Eyes like oh, come on. We could have skipped this part good me Yeah, I was like, oh man,

I Got pretty bad at that point when when he

I'm sorry But at this point I honestly, you know, maybe this is the new voice of Mormonism But this is not the voice of old -time

Mormonism when he says I believe that every faith I have encountered draws its adherence closer to God.

Excuse me really, I Don't see how anybody can fit that with Mormonism at all.

How do you fit that with anything Christian at all? You mean you mean Islam draws its adherence closer to God?

By denying who Jesus is by denying that Jesus is the Son of God in the Savior of mankind. That's drawing you closer to God Buddhism which is in essence an atheistic philosophical system draws you closer to God Hinduism draws you closer to God to Vishnu and Shivna I'm No, I don't think so.

I Would call atheism Especially a Dawkins form or a Hitchens form of atheism a

Dan Barker freedom from religion for religion of atheism These are very religious groups very religious movements

Their religion is the hatred of God, but it's still religion and these draw people closer. No, of course not of course not this is the

This is the pluralism that is required of modern American politicians

You need to say nice things about Viewpoints and perspectives that actually don't deserve to have anything nice said about in the first place.

That's how you show your That openness, you know and things like that so that That's okay.

By the way, let me just stop right here. I noticed it's a summer just came in channel and I had gotten a text message that she had missed last

Thursday and So once so since she wasn't there Carter took an opportunity to go after both her and I in class

That way it doesn't get recorded. So he doesn't have to listen to it Someday in the future.

Yeah, so I'm just about to get say Yeah, yeah

He was talking about both of us so I'm gonna I'm gonna look forward to hearing the students reports, especially as I write my letter to the district board

About the behavior of dr. Lee Carter and things like that. So just just unbelievable, but that he would wait until she's not there

I mean There's somebody with a spine made out of wet linguine, isn't it?

Anyway, just happen to see that coming up so I thought I would I would Mention that in passing but now

I was very disappointed that point this this was when you start talking about Well in this next part really gets bad, okay so this is if you have like a diabetic problem or something be careful here because the sweetness of this might just Push you right over the edge.

You might want to get your your insulin ready. I love the profound ceremony of the Catholic Mass the approachability of God in the prayers of the evangelicals the tenderness of spirit among the

Pentecostals The confident independence of the Lutherans the ancient traditions of the

Jews Unchanged to the ages and the commitment to frequent prayer of the

Muslims. Oh, I don't know about you, but I just I I just feel so so warm and and I just want to hug something

You know, I think what I'm trying to picture how this speech came together Because I can see the handlers leaning over his shoulder as he's writing it.

Yes, and it's going Okay, the LDS Church is the one true church on earth today Okay, mr.

Romney We'd like to rephrase that Into the things that you see good in other faiths and You know see see what you can do with that No, sir, not that no, let me write it for you just right now say this

Yeah, you still had to say it himself, man He still had to say he still had to choke these words down and that is choking it down I'm sorry, but that kind of I don't know even what to how to describe that I thought even spin that's just that that's just the confident

Independence of the Lutherans what on earth is that? I what where did that come from?

What and I love the the frequent prayer of the Muslims That's I Wonder I do wonder how long they sat around going.

All right Which religions do we want to put in here to show how wide open our minds are and say something nice about what can we

Say nice about the Muslims and who is the guy who came up with the Lutheran one? Wow amazing stuff, but anyway, there's the essence of the of the presentation and I No One is commenting on this.

I'm not sure why at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one and oh You know what?

We've gone zooming right past our our break time here. You're ready to go. You are ready to go

All right. Well, we will let all those folks who've been sitting there Just mesmerized by our

Ritchie repartee Call eight seven seven seven five three three three four one and we'll be right back

You Hello everyone, this is Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program

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Support Alpha Omega Ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.

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And Welcome back to the dividing line eight seven seven seven five three three three four one your opportunity to sound off on the discussion of Mormonism in our context or other things certainly you've seen the videos on the blog on Islam we have been discussing that obviously there are always new developments about it that all the time just to fill you all in my daughter just had her last class with dr.

Carter and Evidently she missed last Thursday and so a bunch of students were coming up to her

Today to let her know that a large portion of the class on Thursday was spent attacking her and me.

Yes yours truly I am the one of course, dr Carter will not respond to he has never even had the courtesy of the kindness to respond to any of my emails

He will not debate he will not discuss he will not dialogue because he is protecting the Academy of course and yet I Allegedly am a coward and he of course believes that he can do these things with impunity because he warns people

At the beginning of the semester that if they are Christian, they're going to be challenged. Well, I don't have a Bit of a problem with a

Christian being challenged, but you see dr. Lee Kerr doesn't seem to understand The way he's doing is not challenging anybody A Mocking Christianity is not challenging

Christianity Demonstrating that you don't know a bit of what you're talking about that you are ignorant of biblical languages ignorant of biblical history

That you don't have any grounds about which the standing could never defend your theses In front of anyone who knew what they were talking about is not challenging

Christianity is just demonstrating that you are a bigot That you're prejudiced and that you should not be teaching any class anywhere that's all that's demonstrating and Dr.

Lee Carter knows he could never debate these issues He knows he could not back up the vast majority of the things he says about biblical

Christianity in his in his Classes that's why he will not debate and so how that makes me a coward when he will not

Engage these topics in front of his students He won't do a debate there and on the campus or nearby the campus won't even have the courtesy to respond to challenges

But instead chooses to get upset with 18 year old freshman students in the class

While alleging out of ignorance that their parents have lied to them That's a that's a pretty sad situation to be to be facing in what's called professional academia today but that is the nature of things so the last time

I had heard him lecturing he was talking about fundamentalists as the religiously insane and things like that, so that's just an example of the kind of Religious bigotry and hatred you have being expressed

With our tax dollars in fact in the name of the freedom of the

Academy Obviously if I were to say something like that as I was teaching I would be dismissed immediately, but that's how that goes so That is is rather rather interesting.

I'll get some more details from from my daughter as time goes by Maybe we'll have her on the program.

She was on Before with Gary DeMar and so maybe we might do something like that now the class is over and I'll be writing a very lengthy letter to the entire board of the

Maricopa County Community Colleges to See if again they support this kind of activity

And if they would support this activity if it was aimed at Muslim students I would I would like to know if it would be fair For for that to take place, or if this is just something that is okay for Christians Christians can be treated in this way, but Muslim students and others are protected

By the code of professional conduct shall we say so anyway?

along the same lines We this morning I was driving in and I was listening to Jay Sekulow and they played a song

From the freedom from religion foundation now, I don't remember how long ago. It was now. I think it was probably around 19

Really that late I thought it was even earlier than that because I as I recall

I was I was I was only in Bible College and This was

I think the middle at 1980s That I had a fair amount of dialogue with Dan Barker who is the co -founder of the freedom for religion foundation because I was on with Tom like us at that time with Dan Barker and With his significant other at that time who is still his significant other

Long afterwards boy was she something to talk to afterwards, but I was as I recall 21 years of age

So that would make it around 84 Yeah, I was really really young And I exchanged some letters of Dan Barker Dan Barker very bright fellow

He was also at that time very arrogant In that he you know want everybody to know that he was a concert level pianist that he had helped design the railroad

Switching mechanisms in the Northeast, which it's that's that takes some brainpower to you know keep them from running into each other

And and how to make things move and stuff like that and and he was an apostate and he was proud of being an apostate

He was an apostate from as I recall a Pentecostal denomination but He's still out there, and he's still doing his stuff, and they played a song now

They didn't say who was doing it, but I recognized the voice it was Dan Barker. I could tell by the piano Not a good singer.

I'm sorry. That's just do it. I mean I've never recorded anything, so I guess I can't complain too much, but So I went looking around at the song that they played on J.

Secular's program was nothing fails like prayer and I couldn't find that one

I may have it in one of the two programs some reason didn't transfer over to my laptop so I could look for it but I did find

Dan Barker playing piano and singing on the other program that I did get to transfer over Just to give you an idea.

We need to you know understand Were you with us you were with us when we passed when we held signs outside the

American Atheist Convention in Scottsdale? Oh, yeah, that was fun. Oh, yeah when

I tell you those folks There are some words that I hadn't heard in a long time polite is not in their vocabulary.

It really isn't Even had one guy swerve his car toward us and oh man were these people angry

Yeah, they were just the you know deeply hateful people very just very disturbed very well not disturbed evil

That's that's the moral term that people are afraid to use so I I Went looking for this stuff, and and we were told

How they behaved how the American Atheists behaved at their convention? Literally we had some people from the the

The what what what which resort was that was out there on Scottsdale Road as I recall it recalls one of the large

You know I don't know it was a nice one. I don't remember which one it was though I remember the road it was on yeah.

Yeah, I was on Scottsdale Road, but we had some of the Employees come out and thank us for being there because they were so that sick of these people and their behavior really

And they were telling us about how at three o 'clock in the morning Security is having to go up because they've dressed someone like Jesus Yes, and they're chasing him through the hallways throwing things at him.

That's Mocking mocking exactly just constantly mocking everyone. Oh just incredible There's the people there did not want them there because these people were disgusting and they were coming out thanking us for For that and for being out there because we're holding signs like atheists creatures denying their creator and and stuff like that So anyway this idea of mockery at their get -togethers once you know you put a bunch of sinners together

And they're going to encourage themselves in their sin, okay? And when you get a bunch of people who are suppressing the knowledge of God together

They're going to encourage themselves and suppressing that knowledge even more and engaging more mockery so Obviously what

Dan Barker likes to do is he likes to write mocking songs about Christianity primarily it's interesting.

They primarily hate Christianity. It's they don't really you know hate too much other than that and So this the one they played as I was driving in nothing fails like prayer was really bad

I mean, I'm sorry, but I could write something better than this and and The music was bad the singing was bad, and there was no message to it

It was something about nothing fails like prayer use your brain, and you will see that nothing feels like Brad's all us

That's that's just that that was it So when I found this other one real quickly,

I didn't get in long before the programs I didn't have a lot of time to search when I got online. I searched around and I found this one by Dan Barker and It's about dogma, so just I just you some of you may be offended

But look you need to know where these people are coming from they like to put on the oh

We're just doing this for constitutional reasons. I mean Michael Newdow and all these guys. You know we're just not these are crusaders

They are crusaders for a cause and Once in a while they let the mask slip, and you can really see these people are

God haters They're not they're not just atheists. They are God haters. They hate everything about The Christian faith and about what it would mean to live in light of the existence of God they want to reject all of that They want to look like they're these very calm

Rational people they're not they hate God, and here's an example hold on to your seats folks.

Here's here's Dan Barker Beware of dogma

It has a fight beware of Dogma it wants a fight beware of dogma

It will ignite a holy war by itself

Beware of dogma It'll trap your mind

Religious dogma It'll make you blind Beware of dogma.

It's not designed to let you think for yourself

If we let it out In the universe

There will be no doubt Everything is worse

Dogma don't let it loose that Unchained dogma

It'll reproduce Tie up your dogma. There's no excuse for ignorance anymore

Well, I gotta say at least Christianity produces beautiful music Yeah, where is the atheist hymn book anyways

Yes dogma get it dogma if you didn't get the connection there you'll tie it up it'll reproduce

There you go At least the first one sounded like a dog that one didn't really sound much like a dog

Let's see if we just repeat ourselves here. Oh, we got the choir now. It has a fight beware

It wants a fight dogs fight It will ignite a holy war by itself

Oh No for yourself, yeah,

I can't think for yourself Stop it there There you go

Beware of dogma that was that was very deep wasn't it?

And that background choir they you could tell they had practiced a long time That one didn't

I? Think the the guitarist got a little lost there somewhere All right. Well, but you see the guitarist just the guitarist, but the piano was clearly being done by Dan Barger And he was quick to inform me the very first time we met

Why couldn't we have done this on the Thursday show because that's in the afternoon before or after lunch

Now I have to yeah, that's there there you go. There's a beware of dogma

I'm not sure exactly how high that got on the all -time hit list, but probably not really very high at all, but That's the kind of mindset, you know,

I've described Richard Dawkins and and Christopher Hitchens as And Richard Dawkins even more so as fundamentalist atheist now

I'm not trying to insult fundamentalist by using that term But since the term fundamentalist has come to mean it has it has a new meaning in our society over the past You know,

I I have appeared on the Bob Mohan show once again, same time period as a fundamentalist defending the fundamentalist perspective and man,

I'm gonna tell you something he was looking at me like I Probably had snakes in my briefcase.

I was gonna pull out and have them bite me a few times during the program because Even at that point at least within secular society

The term fundamentalist no longer had its its historical meaning. It no longer had the meaning that that it had speaking of the fundamentals of the faith one true

God a Salvation through Christ the existence of miracles and virgin birth second coming of Christ It had come to mean something much different at that point in time and that's what it means today in common cultural dialogue the term fundamentalist means a

Closed minded person who believes what he believes against all

Argumentation and facts. That's what a fundamentalist is is someone who believes in what they believe against all the possible facts

They they will not they're closed -minded. They cannot dialogue. They cannot they will not listen to what anyone else believes

They will not study what anyone else believes and that's what the fundamentalist is Now there are still people who days no, no, no, no, we need to continue to fight to free the term

Well, you just I'm sorry You don't have control the media and the media has destroyed the term you need to find some other way of expressing yourself

But if you call yourself a fundamentalist today, that is what you're going to be understood to be saying and unless you have about five minutes

To be able to explain yourself and to be able to say yes. I am a historical Fundamentalist I am

NOT a cultural fundamentalist So that that's what I do because immediately no matter who is interviewing me no matter what the context is

They're gonna have to ask what do you mean by that now? They've opened up the door for me to allow For me to be allowed to make my own definition and say well if you're using the term fundamentalist as it was used in the fundamentals

Back in the last century in the early portions of the last century and That would be a consistent

Christian and who believes in the existence of the supernatural who's not a naturalist and materialist and Who believes the fundamental revelations of Scripture?

Then yeah But that's not how people now you have Muslim fundamentalist and Christian fundamentalist being used to represent the same kind of mindset and so we have to be able to differentiate ourselves from that, but I I appeared on Mohan show as a to defend a fundamentalism and today,

I don't think I would even bother to do that because In fact, I'm not sure I'd appear any place to defend

Evangelicalism as that term any longer because who knows what in the world that means by the way I'm gonna go ahead and mention this because no one's calling in on a

Tuesday morning. Anyways, I In fact, I don't think I mentioned this to you. I Experienced a really odd thing

The Thursday night before I started off on this trip on st. Louis and I went elsewhere and I was packing

Not heat. I was putting clothes in into Into I'm not gonna tell you about the other thing

But I was I was packing stuff in my suitcase and I had I turned the TV on because I was going one home and I turned

TV on and I decided to turn to that channel between 20 and 22 And there was

TD Jake's and so I was gonna listen to the last 10 minutes of TD Jake's sermon Now, I wonder how many seconds it's gonna take before I run into some heresy or something.

I Think I got transported into another universe Because I listened to 10 minutes of a

TD Jake's sermon and During that 10 minutes Yeah Well, it was actually in the preview of the next sermon.

He said I believe in the sovereignty of God and In the sermon I was listening to he said

God has a plan for your life and he's gonna accomplish that plan and that plan might mean taking you through suffering and difficulty and He was preaching out of the

Jesus in the boat. He says comes in the fourth watch is the fourth watch is late at night God might put you through suffering for a long time when he does time to live you

It might not be in the form you think it's gonna be And I'm sitting here going No, wait a minute.

Did they dub somebody in here? What's going on here? I have to is that those his lips moving then he says

God decreed that there be a Judas Iscariot Judas had to do what Judas did or there would be no crucifixion.

There'd be no burial. There'd be no resurrection There'd be no salvation Judas did exactly what God's plan for Judas was

And I'm watching the people in the audience and the people in the audience are doing what you're doing right now

You know, they're doing the stand -up, you know What what you do sort of in a black audience in those TV programs, but it's sort of instead of instead of hey, it's hey

And I'm watching this and I'm I listened to 10 minutes He never said anything in Orthodox in the whole time.

All he said was Perfectly Orthodox and I even stopped packing and I'm staring at this thing going

What's going on here? No, come on. Yeah. No, you can't what and I got done preview for the next one was where he talks about I believe he's standing his own church and He's marching around and he's

I believe in the sovereignty of God and I'm sitting here going he's talking about suffering and sanctification

And all this stuff and he's not talking about just say the word and God's gonna release you he's not doing the word -faith thing

It almost honestly sounded to me like what had happened and this has happened before is he had stumbled across the

Puritans online or something and He was going. Hey This stuff sounds good.

I'm gonna preach it and I was left just going now come on Okay, I know it was only 10 minutes.

All right, I'm not saying yee -haw You know, I'm not proclaiming the

TD Jake's has has become Orthodox or anything time But what I heard

Really left me blown away. It really did because it was as if he had run across some

Spurgeon sermons or some Puritans online But he was saying stuff that was making people in his own audience clearly

Uncomfortable. Yeah, I was gonna say if he keeps that up, he'll clear that place out real quick. Well, that's just it You know,

I you you can't keep preaching that kind of thing and be consistent about it for very long But I I just I literally stopped packing and and watch the end of it and I went

Well, um, okay if I'm gonna be fair you know, I've criticized his his position his apostolic background the statement of faith is is non -trinitarian and He you know if he wants to be considered

Orthodox and he needs to come out and speak the truth about that but Maybe it's through reading this stuff.

He'll be brought to an Orthodox understanding of that Who knows I would love to see TD Jake's all of a sudden come out and say, you know what?

well and this he said another thing he said he said You know what? I've gotten old enough now to realize that You know, he did the old the more

I know the older I get the more I realized less I know type stuff, you know And he said, you know what when you're younger you say a bunch of stuff that you never should say because get older You have to spend so much time getting yourself out of the mess of what you said when you were younger and I'm sitting here again just sitting back on what is going on here and We shouldn't be so quick to always be jumping on folks that we don't go hmm.

Well, um, okay I just heard an Orthodox TD Jake sermon. Okay where it came from.

Don't know Does that mean everything is all well and good. Nope, not in any way shape and form

There's all sorts of bad stuff out there. It's got his name on it, but There were some really encouraging statements in there and I'm just like where is this stuff coming from?

I don't know where it came from, but I listened to it on TBN and well, you know, we've seen that happen in the past where it's almost like a seasonal thing

You know as pastors suddenly just kind of switches from this Arminian Rant that he's been on for months and then suddenly switches into something like this and this will go on for a short time and then

Right back into where I know, but I would like so think otherwise you bet you bet.

Let's pray. That's right I'd like to like to pray that he'll keep reading the Puritans or something to find out why they believe what they believed and I mean, that'd be fantastic.

No, that'd be wonderful It'd be the end of an empire. But hey That that would be that would be a fantastic thing.

So anyway, we'll be back Lord willing on Thursday Afternoon at a regular time and that's when we get more of the phone calls because it's in the evening back east and things like that We'll be taking your phone calls and talking about what's important in the kingdom of God.

I hope to see you then. God bless Standing at the crossroads

Let this momentous flow away We must contend for the faith above us fought for we need a new

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