Trinity Oneness Debate Aftershow: 8/11/2021

All right, let's charge for a little bit All right, everybody

Man are you there Charlie? Oh, I got a change.

I don't hear you. We do this We try this Can you hear me now?

Yeah, I hear you. Okay, I wouldn't have done my hands that keeps wigging out on me I think I Okay Okay, Wow, what do you guys think well,

I know what I really think Yeah a minute to filter it down to a g -rated comment, yeah, well

You know what I think it's so frustrating when someone misrepresents your position and then

I Posted in the chat, you know, I would join Stacey in beating the living tar out of the straw man.

He presented I agree with that. Yeah Yeah Unfortunate he does

I Kept telling that's not our position. Yes, it is. Well, I know both the

Trinity that didn't you do I asked him. What's the ontological Trinity?

Because I know all that the ontological economic I know all that and well then what is it he wouldn't say he's he was lying

Yeah, I was glad that Stand for truth at least was kind enough to let me put in the articles that were topical articles

As you went through the different topics So apparent, you know Hopefully somebody can go back and take their time and pause the chat

Look for the link and then they can study it with their Bible open It's pretty much what

I do during your live broadcast during the day. I'll Back up post in that's what

I do during the live broadcast put in Sorry just Man I realize how close

I have drawn to you because when that guy said say something to you laughing and said three brains

I wanted God to give him a spiritual cauliflower here three brain

What? All his life he knows what you teach and you don't even know it yeah,

I mean Seriously, you know if I don't know he was that bad I don't know if I'd agree to look you're not even you don't even know enough to be able to argue.

He didn't Well, he got me on several things. I mean that he didn't get me. I mean what got me was

You don't know you're talking about Matt. I don't be defending it For over 40 years, you know written numerous articles on it, but I don't know what it is.

And I Got a kick out of that. And so he knows a doctrine better than I do and then so what's the ontological economic

Trinity? I know what that is. No, he doesn't I think he lied. I think he did

Yeah, it seems Yeah Marlene said he was scary ignorant.

Yeah, that was the case and he also I couldn't have much of a discussion with him because he doesn't know how to focus on what the actual issue is

And he jumps around and he says I'm not focusing on the scriptures what? Yeah, it was funny.

Oh, well He's quite a mix of modalism civilianism

Aryanism Lame ism, you know, there was a point where you know well

He completely missed the preeminence of Christ He completely missed your point on firstborn

Manasseh and he for him. Also David is called the firstborn Of course, he was Jesse's youngest.

So I mean The the title and how it's used. He's completely ignorant of Of The use of the word as used in Scripture, which is where we're supposed to limit our definition

He was not teachable He was not teachable sadly. Oh, no,

I'm serious. He was not And You know if I'm arguing with somebody said look

Matt that's not our position. I'm say really okay Well, what is your position and then

I'm gonna argue from what that person says? And if they say something contradictory like say a

Muslim says God is two persons. I'd say well, that's not what I've heard in Islam Can you give me some references to demonstrate that at least

I say, okay, let's let's go through this, you know But when I repeatedly told him that's not our position

He just ignored it. Yes, it is No, it's not. Yeah, I wouldn't trust him to go buy me a bottle of voozoo in Athens For as much

Greek as he knew Yeah, it was it's pretty bad no telling what he'd come back with that's right.

Hey Kevin And that was good Matt. I just wanted to comment on something in the debate you asked him

It did the father called Jesus God Yes Jesus God No The spirit of the father was in him

Yeah. Oh because it's written. He's referencing himself in the future sense when he was talking about the spirit being in him

What? Then why you know, why does he look upon me whom they have pierced?

That's that's all prophetic. So that's the the The rug he just he just put everything under it's all prophetic

So it just it means it really doesn't mean what it says because it's all prophetic But you know what?

He failed Exodus 6, you know, God spoke for the Moses said to him I am Yahweh. I pray

Abraham Isaac and Jacob as God Almighty He failed to deal with that. Also John 8 58 before him was

I am what are you gonna say, you know? You know, sometimes there's a diversion.

I like to go to Isaiah 48 You look there in verse 12, you're clearly seeing

God is speaking Oh, yeah, okay, but then down as he continues in Isaiah 48 16

There's some interesting language there that He would have a hard time deciphering.

I think yeah, I don't have this the verse 48 16 up right now, but There's also oh

I do Isaiah 48 16 with you really quickly But though you're referencing right

Near to me. Listen to this from the first I have not spoken in secret from the time it took place. I was there and now the

Lord God sent me and his spirit Yeah, there's also there's so much could have brought up Amos Amos before 10 and 11.

Oh, yeah the one. Oh, yeah. God is speaking I sent a plague among you after the manner of Egypt Isolated young men by the sword along with their captured horses yet And I made the stench of your camp rise up in your nostrils.

You have not returned to me dick declares Jehovah I overthrew you as God overthrew

Sodom and Gomorrah Wait, wait, wait, wait. Why is he speaking about himself in the third person? There's a lot of stuff like this.

There's so many things but he doesn't he doesn't Doesn't listen isn't listen, you know redefine living.

Okay, go ahead redefine what living is because I you know, I'd be interesting Oh, hey, how are you? Okay. Hey great great debate, man

Yeah, that was just that was a straw man. Hey, I asked a question and I wanted to kind of clarify so My question was

My question was Can omni benevolence be an original attribute of a

God that is not triune? Well, and that question was actually in your favor

Well, actually let me before you go through first further Omni benevolence you

I have a problem with that because it's like saying he's omni benevolent. He's all benevolent

Is he anything else besides benevolent that what is omni benevolent mean because when we talk about Omniscience we say that he's a quality of knowing all things if we say he's all benevolent that we have it's a different Issue because benevolence is an attitude where omniscience is a characteristic and so they're slightly different Well, so so yes,

I mean we would agree that you know that I believe there's the four attributes of God, right? you'd have omniscience omni benevolence omnipotence and on the presence on omniscience omnipotence and on the sapience right so So the objection would be how can a

God that is not triune how can omni benevolence be one of those original attributes because That God could not have anything to love until it created something to love and the

Trinity view Solves that problem, right? That's a whole nother area wanted to get into was the nature of personhood in the extension of God Eternally in back in time.

There's no one to fellowship with there's no one to love. There's no reciprocity It's eternal.

Excuse me eternal aloneness and then the true manifestation and Actually, there's a whole nother thing.

I could have said there's lots of different things. I could have said This is what I do with it with the with the job as witnesses and the

Muslims I'll say I'll say is Jesus God in flesh. No, he's not.

Okay. Well, I wait a little bit I want to make sure I get that and they say no, he's not and that's okay

So, let me ask you what's the greatest act of love and you know, those are different things

I'll say well Jesus said in John 15 13 the greatest act of love is to lay your life down for your friend and say be good

Now you said Jesus is not God So the greatest act of love is to lay your life down for a friend

But you're saying God can't perform the greatest act of love So are you saying then that the greatest act of love is done by a creature and not by God?

Is he then greater than God in the expression of love? Hmm. Yeah, that's a strong one

It is and it gets into other things too. There's other kinds like that fit like that kind of argumentation

The holiness of God and so but this one is the one that would work best with him Okay Yeah, that's right x5, you know

Peter Well, yeah, I mean I just wanted to did let you know, you know that that that omnibenevolence question is a

It's an attraction to to one of the four attributes of God and so that only the

Trinity can solve that Objection, so it's it's actually a good decent question.

I thought it was a good Yes, but I wouldn't I wouldn't use the word omnibenevolence stay away from that. It'll trip you up just Who was

God having fellowship with? Forever. He wasn't how and who since God is love and love is other centered.

Who was he loving forever? I mean essentially that that is the question. Yeah Cool, man.

So yeah, anyway, I'm gonna I'm gonna get out of here before you guys get great Everybody you can talk here and I'll get did he understand the doctrine of the

Trinity? No Not even Yeah, you got straw man really hard, yep now is the

Trinity three gods No, well, no say would you say an accurate representation representation would be three essence

Nope. No, there's one essence the divine essence who has three is who is represented in three persons

Not one not three essences because to say three essences is a problem There's three different kinds of essence

If there's only one kind of essence then there's just one essence one essence is one thing like you have three apples

They all share the one essence Apple -ness, right? Okay, and so there's only one essence

So if you say there's three essences, that would be an apple and orange and a banana They have three different essences but if you say there's only one essence then they're one thing and Also, this gets into the issue of polytheism.

I can address into that the essence of God is no ability and and Transcendental and it gets more complicated but it reflects into that as well.

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you All right, so who's this gangster looking guy just came in or total

All right, buddy, how are you? Yeah awesome, bro, I can't believe I'm talking to you man, it's amazing I've been

I've been reading your stuff online for the last like 12 years. So Wow. So you're impressed Get to meet me

Can you call the office tomorrow? Tell her tell my wife? Tell her baby.

He is so awesome. He's great. He's uh, did you gotta talk me up? All right, I need to all I can get

And that was a really good debate man, I don't think we ever met before I'm sky out how you doing doing All right doing.

All right. Let's get you. I want to hear that. Our tour is talking this guy out. You're up. Okay, let's see All right

Yeah, so so just I'll be quick so the argument that you just used right now about God's love

I Used that one time and I was actually I was told by our PC and a guy, you know, truly reformed that basically that it was a bad argument because God's love is a it's a relative attribute.

It's not an absolute attribute So I would know yeah, it's called an emergent property this is the issue of love but that he would say that then in the construction of or the materialization of the

Actuality of existence and other objects to be able to work to love then love is fully manifested

That's what he's saying. But is that the case? That's the question we have to ask because if the nature of love is self -sacrificial and God is a person by nature then who's the fellowship is going with that's that's an issue

Now here is a related thing to this. All right, so if God is a single person

Then there is no object subject subject object relationship if God is

Two persons then we have a problem I'll get is really short then we have the father and the son

Then we have we have the issue of fellowship and love and reciprocity can be manifested eternally

But that's the problem in there. Is that the thing that is exchanged then becomes impersonal.

So if I'm talking to you the words are Impersonal in the sense that they don't think the words don't have any self self -consciousness

So then the love itself would be impersonal and exchange the fellowship would be impersonal and exchanged between them

So the this is a short version there's there's some issues to discuss in that but nevertheless the

Trinitarian concept would mean then that That which is is exchanged is itself personal

And so therefore you'd have the Trinitarian essence having the completeness of totality of personhood and the personal attribution

However, if in it go back to just two in that abstraction, which is not personal then would mean that a fundamental aspect of God's nature would be

Non -personal and that's problem. Yeah, so I didn't get to all the details, but there's another area

So when we get introduced that then we talk about the issue of love as being an emergent property

It's an emergent property, but it's eternally actualized always in the condition of the fellowship of the

Trinity So therefore it's a necessary property because it's part of what God's nature is eternally Okay Yeah, I agree with that.

That's good. Good. I'm glad you did because I didn't make any sense Yeah, it's just it's the whole divine simplicity thing man

I just it it threw me off a little bit when I read Francis Turretin and how he denied that I just it threw me off for a while So, you know,

I learned that argument from quorum a long time ago and I used it so many times Finally our

PC and a guy just shut me down So, you know the the RPC a RPC and a the reform

Presbyterian of North America or something like that. I forgot. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, I could have a discussion with him on that because it gets it gets deeper and deeper

Okay, I don't know how much he knew and what he was he was talking about there and also there's what's called a perichoresis, but the interdwelling of the persons in there and the sharing it necessitates

Fellowship and love as a necessary property what God is because the Trinity Trinity is eternal if he's gonna say that it's not necessary Property then is he really reflecting the doctrine of the

Trinity properly? That's a question. We got that right, right, right, right Okay, good stuff, man. All right, buddy.

Where do you live? What city in the state real fast? Yeah, I just moved to Tennessee from Bakersfield, California. So Bakersfield.

Oh, yeah Yeah, a whole bunch of um, hey my family live in the Kern Valley. So Yeah I would say oh,

I'm sorry living in Bakersfield. That's like a whole bunch of times. You're the guy. All right I mean, I love the

Kern Valley and even I wouldn't want Bakersfield personally McDonald's, they're just off the freeway though in Bakersfield It's a miserable place but yeah

I moved out here about four months ago that the economy got really bad out there and possibly means ridiculous.

So Yeah, they got to get rid of Newsom. That's right You got to understand what it means to be one dance

And you ain't understand. I dropped my bacon sandwich. Hold on You gotta understand me, you know, wait, wait, man.

You don't understand what it means to be one this you gotta let go of the Illusion that I exist and then you can become oneness

You know that reminds me when the questioner said well, you know represent the other person's position. I did his he didn't disagree

He couldn't get mine Hmm Oh, yeah, you did an excellent job there.

I am That kind of slipped my mind because I wasn't interested in his position So I was probably paying attention to side chat at that time.

But yeah, you did excellent when you did that It was cool, I love the verses that you brought up I was thinking like Revelation 5 and the lamb and all that Alpha and Omega proving

Jesus is Yahweh that you did that too. That was wonderful, man Glory be to God and for using you to for the

Trinity and everything So it was awesome brother, and I learned a lot too from you today as well. So it was really good good

Well, I didn't actually defend how the Doc or the Trinity's arrived at I'm saving that for two weeks when

I got a Debate coming up another awesome oneness. Cool, man. That's great. Yeah, okay well that goes with the question that I want to ask which is um,

I Like to get my doctrine from God Deliberately teaching it through his scripture good.

And so I'm I was thinking I was reading a part of that whole section in John chapter 15 through 17

And I was like what I'm reading is God deliberately teaching the Trinity doctrine and it seems it's really blatantly deliberately being taught there

And just wanted your take on that well the spirits mentioned John 14 26 15 26 the father and the son relationship in John 17, you know, it's interesting.

I have to go through and and And look at that to see About that in that context

But yeah, it's there also Since you talk about John if you go to first John chapter 1 it talks about it

There's a hint of the Trinity there as well in verse 3 what you've seen and heard we proclaim to you

You may have fellowship with us Fellowship with the father and fellowship with the son

So us in doing of the Spirit fellowship with the father and fellowship with his son now here's that's another verse

I could have asked him. How do you have fellowship with the son? How do you do that?

If Jesus is not God in flesh? How do a million people at once have fellowship with them? I should have brought that up but first John 1 3 and maybe

I'll do it for the next thing And there's all kinds of stuff in the Bible about this for sure for sure he kept saying the same thing like the father became the son and the spirit and Denying the incarnation of the word in Philippians, right?

So in Philippians you see the incarnation of the word and he keeps saying the father Obviously he says well, you know

The word became flesh the father didn't become flesh and the father didn't die on the cross, right? So, I don't know why he kept saying

Everything you said if you showed a verse that like in 1st John 5 20 Jesus is the true God, right? If you showed him that verse, he's just gonna say well, that's just the father

Becoming the son and that's that's just this Asian or a glorified creature. What do you think? Oh, it's right

You know, you're right. He's just gonna interpret the way he wants the Granville Sharp rule of Titus 2 13.

He didn't handle at all He's been shown that he's been shown that to Matt in other debates

I've seen him he's paid no attention to it He's blown it off. But John 15 through 17.

That's superb. Yeah Trinitarian Understanding will really bring out the richness of those three chapters.

I agree superb point Yeah one of the things

I didn't like about Stacey is is He can't he could not disassociate his

Automatic response from actually listening what the text says. Mm -hmm yeah,

I agree he was misusing and abusing the text and inserting his his view into the text and Yeah, and I feel

I can see it. He's inserting the view into the text where it doesn't belong it's misusing and abusing the text and it's isogeting the text or the way he's he's actually doing it and When it's doing it, yeah

It's really funny. It's crazy. And when it was very clear, I mean, let's say I mean

Of course God is invisible. The Bible says in John chapter 1 verse 18. No man has seen

God at any time So the Bible tells us in John chapter 4 verse 24 God is a spirit the

Bible tells us in 1st Timothy chapter 1 verse 17 now to the king immortal eternal Invisible the only wise

God so you can't see the very nature and essence of God physically because God is not a physical being

So Jesus comes to be that visible incarnation the manifestation of the invisible

God the father So you can't see God, but Jesus makes himself visible through his life through his words through him being the incarnate

God So he manifests and makes known the father. So God is distinct from his creation.

Therefore. He is a spirit. He's not physical He is a spirit. You got to make that distinction of creation. God is a spirit, right? so then we have that theophany

Christophany and then Jesus Christ becomes The God man you kept using that phrase

God man, and he kept disagreeing with you So I don't see how you can come to conclusion that God is oneness and hold his position

Well, you can't not consistently. He's so given over to his position. He can't see anything else I mean cannot see and when he said

That each verse refutes the Trinity He doesn't understand how the Trinity's arrived at and those verses didn't refute the

Trinity He because he assumes that Trinity is three separate gods. See the Father's God see you're wrong

It's like you don't even understand our position You've got your program right in front of you that John 118 where it says that Jesus has explained him or revealed him

Is that the word exegete? To bring up from behind the curtain and put on display.

That's what the logos would do here. Let me Take a look And I'll share the screen here, there we go

Okay, so John 118 Explained the

Greek word is exegesis. Oh, hey, there you go. Okay exegesis Yeah From exegomai.

Oh, that's right From exegomai That's right to tell lead forward to bring or lead out declare thoroughly

There you go. The word picture is airtight in the Greek. I mean, but he didn't appreciate the

Greek whatsoever And a lot of people in the room were were were not appreciative of the original language to it is useful

When you want to look at a fine point of doctrine, it is useful to avoid a misunderstanding and they were missing the usefulness

Yeah, I mean I could come up with an example off the top of my head easy, but that would be off topic

But yeah, I completely agree with you there Go ahead if I may mention about what sky out was saying with the whole long explanation.

It's just the point that Was made to me listening to you there sky out Is that like the

Bible just makes sense if you listen to God as he intends and it really is that simple in a sense?

For sure for sure. Yeah, and the Bible is actually what dr. James White says We were forced to believe in a

Trinitarian context because that's the way the Bible is revealed to us So no matter what that's the way the

Bible is to be understood in that in that context Even if you try to fight against it, it's just not gonna work out there's very like there's a lot of verses that show that Jesus is

Yahweh and and and like the God hot chaos, right and he Matt brought that up and in Hebrews, right one eight

But of the son the father says your son. Oh God is forever and after forever and ever is Ho Theranos saw ho theos the the throne of thee the

God and so yeah, but it's in the vocative Okay, you're right. Okay, I believe it's in the vocative there and Extremely technical

I I'm not exactly too sure you might be right Yeah, because it's well, no, no, no.

No, it's the nominative vocative, right? Well, the vocative and the nominative had the same ending

Omicron Sigma and Yeah, so this is with the my notes or my program says that it's the nominative

The vocative would be God is your throne.

Okay. No before I you know, I'm getting my brains fried. It's tired. Sorry Anyway, that's all good, dude.

And also in second Peter 1 1 the God and Savior Jesus Christ how

They are home on Chi can't say arise. So Tyria's Savior the God of us and Savior of us in Jesus Christ and second

Peter 1 1 Which is a really good verse to show exegetically that Jesus is

Yahweh I can't see how he just denies that and tells you you're wrong and he would just say where who's our

God and That's the father and a Savior Jesus. Oh, yeah That's what they do.

Well, yeah, John 17 3 you'll say, you know, right the father and Jesus Christ I you said he'll debate you on the word and forever, right?

And then the part I didn't like is when John 17 5 you kind of clearly showed that Jesus is praying to the father and highly priestly prayer.

We can see that The father's giving glory to the Son in John 17 5 the

Greek word for with his para and it means with there's an indication of doctrine of the Trinity That shows the

Greek word for para. What do you think? I was I was checking on my wife. So I'll just keep going and so that that's what

It says there's the doctrine of the Trinity everyone that in in John 17 5 80

Robinson Who's the best scholar around says that literally means side -by -side to the father not a plan

So stays you kept saying a plan inside your mind a plan this and a plan that Oh John 1 1 is a plan like This is saying that I know right.

It does not say the it doesn't say, you know What he kept accusing me of it. He was so guilty of you

Don't listen to what it says you keep changing it and I'd I would quote him a verse and he would alter it

I mean, it was ridiculous Yeah, did you catch that he was Preferred the

Geneva translation to the King James nice Okay King James, remember that?

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if he's aware of the Geneva Bible is a

English translation from the French So, I mean,

I don't know his point in referring that Well, it's

The original it might have a lot of advantages for him. Yeah Yeah, and the other thing you mentioned

God is your throne there in Hebrews That's the preferred translation from the New World translation, which they corrupt.

They corrupt the heck out of that verse Can I ask you sky when you're talking about John a second ago were you talking about chapter 1?

You know like a logos in Yes, I just Yeah, I might not have changed the

I didn't change the word order here so let's get something but um, yeah for cross

I just Translate it toward and go from there because that's the most straightforward literal meaning of the word so The logos in English is most similar to Statement.

So the statement was toward the father or toward the God. Sorry. The statement was toward the God Absolutely.

Yeah, I mean And and that's that's it's really you can see that in John 1 1 it's also without the article

So I think they did that on purpose to show the nature of what the word was That the nature of the word and explains it of the nature of the word comparing to the father and just like in John 1030 me and the father are one, you know, he's not saying he is the father or you know

I mean, he's saying we're this we share the same nature and but different positions You know man, he says that can legitimately be looked at his face to face

Yeah, right and Thomas even said my lord my god, right? So You know, what more do you want?

You know, I mean I can't see how Stacy didn't well I I see what you were doing

Matt it was really cool cuz like You were sorry, okay, the one is teachers will agree that Jesus was called

God, right? However, they'll also teach that like God was acting out in like this father mode

So this this is becomes difficult because then the one is believers how can the father call the son

God when in oneness doctrine the son is Juxtaposed with the father in the same context as a man in the human nature of Jesus was also not

God So that's the confusing part that I was like, what is going on here? I think something that was going on is

I think by standard convention the doctrine that Stacey holds is called Unitarianism yes, if I followed correctly because oneness is where Jesus is the father is the spirit when the

Distinction is completely erased His seem to be the reverse where he says that Jesus is not

God as far as I know. That's called Unitarianism Right, right They well, yeah, the

Unitarianism is only the father one This would be like it's only Jesus acting out in other modes, right?

So which is like Completely a contradiction of Scripture and how it's revealed to us and how it's revealed to us is that God is in fact

Father son and Holy Spirit three persons and acting in one God one divine being right and Jesus is in fact

Through the incarnation becomes the man so in he dies on the cross and we're forgiven

You know, we're saved by him by his grace and we and So like Matt was saying he was kind of bearing false witness in that context

I can kind of see how he's bearing false witness because like He doesn't have the one true

God So he's actually blaspheming God in that in that kind of way almost unlike an unforgivable sin sense because he's hard in his heart against the truth of God which would be an unforgivable sin in in in in a small context.

I don't know how you guys feel about that When we talk about the unforgivable sin another context, it's not the Matthew 12 22 to 32 is blasphemy the

Holy Spirit That's not it. But one is people can be they can be saved. Yeah, Matt standing for truth

I don't know if you answered him Wondered when your next debate was with a one this guy Posted I posted it correctly the

August 24th. Yeah. Okay. It's I posted in the text Okay, that's right.

And it's on your calendar on your home page, by the way Yes, it is. That's where I got it

Okay, it's on the car network forward slash calendar Yeah, that's where I grabbed that one from Okay Well, I gotta get running man, you have yourself a good night.

Yeah, I gotta get going here in five minutes myself you two Thanks, man Okay If I may all respond to it someone said in the side chat here

Remy Canadian Said isn't Unitarianism the belief that Jesus is just a man not a deity or divinity or divinity or connection to God I think to say no connection to God depends on how you define connection but Unitarians still consider him to be the

Messiah and the Son of God so I Think to go as far as to say no connection would be an exaggeration.

But yeah, it is the belief that he is Not God. Yeah, but a really really good guy

I Got some Unitarians here, you know When you say that it makes it sound like They just want humans to be good and it's like a proud thing and I do think it

Yeah, it's an ollie ollie in free kind of a thing. Sure. Yeah, I do think Unitarianism is in Oneness are both motivated

By pride deep on the spiritual level each one in a bit of a different way but you know, the only accepting of Jesus is

To die and become new and that's the ultimate humbling is that death?

That's right yeah, my wife wrote a little book a little poem book a brand new creature and Unless you're

Unless you allow him to make that brand new creature out of you and you hasten to his call

I'm of the belief that I couldn't resist his call Personally and and that's when he cracked me

And he did make me a brand new creature and I like her her little book You can get it on Amazon by the way a brand new creature

And yeah after my experience of salvation when I was studying, you know,

I'm Testing testing different teachers and teachings very carefully and studying the

Bible Being new. I don't call myself a

Calvinist, but I'm very Calvinistic when Calvinism is described accurately.

I don't really find I don't find any disagreement with it and it's just Yes, not like I came to it by People teaching me and convincing me or something.

It's like I was looking for what agrees with the Bible My experience is a lot less relevant, but obviously that plays a factor in my own perspective and That's pretty much what

I came to I mean, I'm not a Calvinist But I've known Matt for over 40 years and he lets me work with them and I'm on his

Board of Directors Calvinist, I didn't know that you're a heretic No, but properly

Presented. Yeah, Calvinism is is pretty darn sound he had Some it was a dandy thinker that's for sure and a lot of Calvinists Don't represent

Calvinism, right? I'm noticed that yeah people people really

Struggle with it. I think it's what's called antinomy. I prefer the term. My friend came up with Simulathia, which is simultaneously true but You know, they're like the paradoxes in the text basically and I think that's what people struggle with is to Accept all the simultaneous truth that the

Bible teaches If I may mention Where I heard such good description of Calvinism if I may throw it out there for your audience, is that okay?

Yeah, it's um, I heard it on a channel called Rick Codwell They have a show every weekend called the bearded theologians and the man his name is

Randy and his channel is the Berean voice okay, and He just did an excellent job of really articulating

Calvinism Correctly and when I saw it I mean it took them like an hour to be totally discussing the topic and it kind of took all that time to Have the nuances shown clearly so I've sampled some of their stuff on YouTube and from what

I've sampled. I was impressed Yeah, they're good brothers for sure And then while you said you were wrapping up,

I guess I'll head out and let you do that It's gonna have standing for truth come in if he wants and tell us what he's out of this bait

Then we can go because I go to check on my wife make sure she's okay I go do it every hour or two is hey, how you doing?

She goes, okay But she'll call me if there's an issue Yeah, I'll wait a minute to see if he comes in because we're friends him and I This headset microphone is so good.

So it's been all going for almost four hours on one charge. Yes Did you give him the link?

Right there. There he is. Okay. Hey brothers. Good to see you. Good to see you again

Matt three hour Clash That's right even after an hour

Q &A I still had people in the in the live chat saying beating it You didn't ask my question. I think that was the most questions

I've ever I've ever received in a debate. So that that was epic. You did a fantastic fantastic job, so Man I'm telling that guy he does not know what he's doing.

He does not understand what he's criticizing Well as somebody and brother

Nick knows too. I've done a lot of debates against evolutionists Mm -hmm, but I've also studied

I'm not an evolutionist. I'm a young earth creation So I debate the evolution side, but I have taken a lot of time to study the evolution side

So when I'm debating them, I know what I'm debating against And I'm not debating against a straw man because I mean there's nothing impressive about knocking down a straw

Yeah, I'm with you I agree Yeah that actually dr.

Kenny Rhodes. He's he's a Trinitarian theologian as well. And he debated Stacy a few weeks ago

He was so impressed with your performance Matt. He asked me if I could give him your email He'd like to chat to you a chat was my performance mean tonight.

Yeah. Yeah, he was in the chat watching. So he was Kenny Rhodes, dr.

Kenny Rhodes. He he's a theologian for reasons to believe Yeah, so he he wants to talk to you give my cell or whatever if you have it or not,

I don't know whatever I Love to have you on but I know you're busy.

I'd love to have you on maybe in the next month or two just for maybe like a program dedicated to defending the

Trinity take some audience questions and I Can get real deep into the doctrine of the

Trinity and lay out the Trinitarian concept as the necessary precondition for all intelligibility all morality and the solving of the one and many issue also get into the nature of the eternal covenant and simultaneous knowledge of God Having all actualities potentialities who then ordains what shall come to pass all out of the

Trinity In fact, I use the Trinity as a basis for marriage counseling believe it or not. Yeah. Yeah.

So anyway Amen, I'd love it. I think that would be very edifying for the audience there's

Yeah, I'd love to yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, you you did a great job. Definitely one of the I think best debates on that specific topic very important topic because as we were talking about before there's a lot of Oneness proponents kind of creeping in and Nick knows what

I'm talking about. I mean, they're They're popping up everywhere. There's one thing

I mentioned it in passing I did not even tackle how the doctor the Trinity's arrived at right because it's arrived at Systematically not by one verse and it's not refuted by one verse and this is a

I'm saving that for my next debate in two Weeks, that's good. You'll know this we're gonna exchange opening statements.

So you're not gonna say that but yeah I'm looking forward to that debate. That is Charlie posted it in the in the chat.

What's his name again that you're that you're debating Roger something Yeah, Rodney. Okay, Rodney Smith.

Yeah, I seen it on Roger Perkins On baptism

Trinity and baptism. I think I have learned so much on baptism recently. I Learned so much.

I'm getting more convinced that baptism means Sprinkling or pouring and not immersion.

How about that? Interesting interesting. Yeah, and when I get my argument arguments people go

Those are interesting arguments So therefore when you debated Roger Perkins you were debate

I'm guessing his position as a oneness Pentecostal is that baptism saves necessary for yeah.

Yeah, you have to do that Yeah, but I've been you know, I've learned so much more since then but Yeah, I like teaching on baptism because I still learn

I'm still learning about it and I've changed my view on Acts 238 Slightly and a couple other things

Nothing heretical. It's just a you know, look at this. Look at this, you know, right, right and what does that mean?

You know like the thing I adopted recently within a year or two Yeah, the return of Christ the first was taken out of the wicked as Jesus says in Matthew 1330, you know

It's the first get of the tears like It's what it says, you know, so Anyway, but anyway, you're just stuff like that.

Nothing. That's heretical. Just hey, what do you think? So yeah What can I ask you about?

From what I know I'll go straight up to the arrow quit. Okay, go ahead. Sorry from what

I know of the etymology of The Greek word for baptism it comes from dipping which would be more associated with a submersion than a sprinkling

Yeah Except that Jesus for example give you a really short version of stuff Jesus was probably sprinkled according to the

Old Testament law in order to enter into the priesthood Because never was the priest immersed in water but the priest was sprinkled with bloods or sprinkled with water and I have an article on that and also

The whole region of Judea and Jerusalem are going out to John the Baptist to be baptized by him

Not by a whole bunch but by him. So there were roughly around 600 ,000 people in that area

I've read different things 640 ,000, but let's just say 600 This is even 500 ,000 and it says all of them were going out there.

Well, obviously not every individual So who was going out? Well, even if we say only 10 % we're going out to be baptized.

That's still 50 ,000 people How does one person baptize 50 ,000 people by immersion? It's a problem when 3 ,000 were added into The church the one day if 12 people were told disciples were baptizing they would have in eight hours

They'd have to do one baptism every two minutes and 20 seconds Roughly in order to do that And that's a problem because they're in an upper room and you can't do that in upper room because you would not be able to Have 12 simultaneous vats of water up in an upper room.

It doesn't work There's all kinds of stuff like this and you go to acts 1 5 John baptized

With water and you'll be baptized with the Holy Spirit Well the way the baptism of the

Holy Spirit works is always by pouring That's how it's prophesied. So the word baptism there has to mean pouring and also you go to Hebrews 9 10

It talks about washings and the Greek word is baptismus. Well, the context of Hebrews 9 is sprinklings and You know and Acts chapter 8 when

Ethiopian eunuch and Philip And so let's go get baptized. They both went into the water, you know

Cuz they said they both came out of the water. So see they were immersed No, no, it says you both can in you wouldn't be immersed if you're the baptizer

You'd be up to your knees in water and then come out of the water. Plus if you read what? The Ethiopian eunuch was reading was reading

Isaiah 53 Look at the very last verse of Isaiah 52 and it talks about God's sprinkling nations.

So you get all this stuff you're going Hey, and it builds

I'm not saying it's proof, but it just makes people think Yeah, I mean the only point of pushback

I can have right away is that in ancient speak? Sometimes you would refer to one person doing something which would include them in their staff doing things aside from that There's nothing

I can say But it's true on the perspective. Yeah, and so I started you know, there's a book you can get called

William the Baptist And I learned a lot of this out of William the Baptist years ago and some other stuff

I've learned But it's really a it's a short book. It's a good book. It's done in a dialogue Context and when you read through you go.

Wow. I never thought of that. That's a good point. That happens a lot in there Not that you agree with everything but William the

Baptist I recommend it Yeah, I like the article you did Matt. You did pretty good on that.

It's more than Your normal little quick and slick things you went into it pretty good

It's true. Yeah, but I don't die on this hill. I just I offered for fun and and Yeah, it's fascinating to compare the scriptures and see what those

New Testament Christians would have understood they were doing and the methods that they were familiar with Absolutely.

Yeah, I'm if it's not Immersion, then that would be interesting to me. I think we do have a one obvious anyway

Similar kind of thing from the other way and that's that the immersion is to be immersed into his death as If going into the group, but is that the grave you go to?

if you go to Romans 6 it says we're baptized and Galatians 3 baptized into his death

Yeah, what does it mean? Because here's a question We're buried with Christ in baptism, right?

Yes, so when we're if immersion occurs you're you lay down and then the water comes over the top of you

And then you're resurrected out of that water, right? How was Jesus buried? You mean in the tomb with a stone covering him?

All the way yeah, but I do at the same time think that as a matter of symbolism

We don't necessarily have a con a conflict there based on The literalness of it being a tomb instead of a grave style burial but they didn't really do grave style burials that way then

I guess that's That kind of puts the whole thing into question, right? Right because if we're baptized into Christ what does it mean to be baptized into him because into Christ is a term of federal headship and If we look at he was put in a tomb

Can we then learn this out of William the Baptist? I remember correctly could you then bury someone by building a room onto a

House and just put him in on a bed and then seal it up and that's burial.

The answer will be yes Because that's what a tomb is Well, then how are we buried with Christ?

What obviously is the symbolism I think I think actually symbolism better suits burying there in the baptism

I like like it that way, but it's not necessarily that way. Okay, that's my point.

But Yeah, I hear that. You know some of these topics I don't know what you guys are doing in the time window of Matt's show

But these topics would be great to have called into his show There's the link for the time window of it

Or the information Yeah, I think a lot of people would appreciate

Information and some pointing in the right direction of where to study these topics. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I agree with that I love your

Matt's look live shows and I gotta ask you Matt. Where do you find the endurance? I mean you did Matt's look live today for an hour.

Then you did a three -hour debate After -show, what's the secret brother? naps

Because I had to take two naps today because I didn't sleep well last night and I got up and took it I got like five hours sleep

So I took an took a nap for an hour and then I had to go do something They came back and I was just I just just a little bit and I just went after 15 minutes didn't sleep

Just kind of I call it fake sleep. That's it Then you're good. Oh, I Had an uncle that held down two jobs for as long as I knew him and I asked him, you know

You get very little sleep. How do you do that? He goes man. I sleep fast That's the secret sleep faster and when you power nap you get a power nap like this

Well, there's too much to do too much to study too much to watch to to sleep too much so sleep faster

I like that and I read in bed a lot of times. I'll go through theology and I do on my phone

Do that I do outlines I do all kinds of stuff. Well, if I if I try to read in bed, it's like ether

It knocks me out I Read in bed. I read in bed. I read in bed. I read in bed I'll be awake for at least an hour tonight.

I always had trouble going to sleep. It's just what happens I always trouble going to sleep after a debate. I don't know what it is.

Maybe I'm all pumped up or maybe yeah I don't know. Yeah, it's like I turn your brain off.

It's hard because I'm like You know, I have kind of a different one when it's time for me to go to sleep

It's like I like to put something on on YouTube and I can be interested in it or something But I can't put on like a

Bible reading because the Bible just keeps me awake Uh -huh, I Can't have anything because I'll start what is that?

We're all different. Yeah I'm the same way actually one thing too before I let you go

Matt. Yeah, didn't you start a page recently on? Trent on the

Trinity No, I thought I said you post something recently either a page or Where I go through one or two statements in my broad

Thing I've been working on the Trinity, okay, but doing it that way, okay, okay No, I I like that.

You're doing more of these Trinity debates. I think we need it and it's It's important.

Yeah, and we need to do hypothetic Union communicate to idiom autumn imputation justification These things need to be covered and known inside out backwards forward because that's the heart of the of the true nature of God in the gospel

Especially justification which you did a great job Few days ago. Oh, thanks.

Yeah with the East Orthodox guy. Yes. Yeah, I don't think yeah, that's right. Yeah Okay, yeah,

I'm gonna be working on you a lot more Well, that's a big task because all of my

EO Family, yeah, they say no matter how long you live you'll never learn it all

They're and they're devoted I mean I would just respond by going. Yeah, heresy is a deep.

Well, oh And they remind me of the verse about those who are always searching and never coming to the knowledge of the truth

Exactly taking in knowledge Arriving at the truth. Well, what was he saying to you?

Matt on Romans 4 or 5 but to him that worketh not but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly his faith is counted for righteousness

What was he saying about the justification there? I found it really bizarre Do you remember the occasion was the restoring of the relationship?

mmm, that's he kept saying if I remember correctly and it was restoring the relationship and That when he bore our sins at his body in the cross, it meant that he bore the penalty

He kept altering the text and it's not right. Well, yeah Restoring that relationship is is essential to the

Orthodox and he skillfully avoided using the term they use for that Theosis or divination he explained it in every way he could without saying the words because I think some of them are being embarrassed by admitting that that's part of that's a

Central part of orthodoxy is to be absorbed into the power of God ultimately and become one with him

They call it theosis when they also call it divination You look up those you'll you'll get a better understanding of why he was trying to Explain himself in those terms.

It'll be clear Is that similar to the Catholic view of justification because it reminds me of your debate with Robertson Janice on justification

Matt where he was he was twisting Romans 4 5 as well. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, you know he and I had three encounters by the third one

He was up against the ropes Yeah, but yeah,

I'm looking at my notes that I took from the EO debate on Romans 4 5 and Where he commented, let's see okay, and He will okay

Issues when we say that we're justified by faith We're not saying that faith is some ethereal substance that makes us right faith is a good is always good

And who it is in it's good because that's my type my notes really fast believe in God we've also in me

Yeah I believe because it is he will need to demonstrate the reputation of Romans 4 5 and sin is a legal debt and that's my notes

Are related to that so I can't remember anything much more than that. Yeah, he said about Justification I'll just put it this way being something other than justification that strikes me funny because you think

Eastern Orthodox would appreciate the Greek language And I think it's a lot harder to be unsure about doctrines when you check when we check the

Greek it tends to be more clear and they they tend to the words tend to be used so functionally and Usefully that to like start getting spacey about the words for no reason now that just strikes me very strange

Yeah, yeah, there's some issues But I'm I'm gonna be studying his EO and writing more articles about it and incidentally jungle not divination but divinization

Becoming divine, but they don't mean in your nature But in the attributes of God through the energies you participate in and becoming more

Christlike and this is how you maintain salvation Yeah, if you hear that word out of an Orthodox, it's describing what they believe is an absorption of themselves into the

Power of God his essence in nature Ultimately, I want to ask that is that going back to Nirvana?

I want to know Anyway guys, I'm out of here. Okay Yes, good job again,

Matt. I appreciate that debate. That was must watch needs to be shared around. So good job and Good night, brother.

Make sure you get some sleep. You've earned it. Yeah, I go to sleep in usually three to four hours from now a party never

May say to everyone just trust Messiah That's right. Trust Jesus.