Warriors, Capitulators, and Reconcilers With Stephen Wolfe

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All right, welcome to the conversations that matter podcast, my name is John Harris and I am pleased to be joined today

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With Stephen Wolfe I have with me who writes for sovereign nations and actually Stephen I found out about your material just from Facebook I want to say like a year two years ago something like that.

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Somehow we became friends I don't know how but I appreciated a lot of your articles and I think you helped me understand better Especially to Kingdom theology and reform theology as it pertains to political theory.

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So Thank you for for being on with me. I appreciate it. Yeah. Thank you for having me on So Stephen the reason

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I wanted to have you on specifically other than the fact that you're smart and I think you have a lot to share is you wrote an article recently and I Found out about it through cross politic, but it's called the evangelical

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Reconcilers how evangelicalism reconciles itself with modern liberalism and The title of that just kind of captured me and I thought what are you talking about?

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Evangelical reconcilers and I thought I knew and then I read it and I thought this is a brilliant piece and everyone

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Needs to understand the argument or the points that you're bringing out here I want to start if I can by reverse engineering this

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I want to start with the conclusion and then work backwards So because I think you bring out some of the implications of why this is important in the conclusion

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But then let's explain who are the reconcilers. Why why is it important that we understand what they're doing and the

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The effects that their work can have on Christianity and the political situation in our country in the

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Western world So I'm gonna read this is a little lengthy, but just just hold on with me You say the evangelical

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Reconcilers are orchestrating a neo and a Baptist turn and they're merely doing what the prevailing ideology has exalted them to do

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Few will notice. However, this subtle reformulation of evangelical thought despite its opposition to classical

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Protestant political theology many will miscategorize it as just another reiteration of the old liberalization of the

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Christian faith after Demonstrating their theological orthodoxy the reconcilers will continue unabated to eliminate the evangelical threat to modern liberalism

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They will continue to socialize people into the new evangelical discourse dominated by catchy phrases lines tropes and mantras and appropriate terms such as Threat witness and political to new ends.

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I Think you meant appropriated there if I Okay, they will continue to Christian eyes popular sentiment and delude people into thinking that harmless Christian practices can disrupt secular ones

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They will reduce political activity to moral witness into securing walls of tolerance or religious liberty for a small space of distinctively

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Christian norms, but despite appearances their orthodoxy and perhaps their own consciousness Consciousness their reconcilers are agents of the liberal

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Ideological regime Legitimated by it and for it and we ought to identify them as such.

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So that's the conclusion that you reach And I think you do a good job explaining why there's this group of evangelicals out there who are serving a purpose whether we see it or not to disrupt actual

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Protestant Christian political engagement and kind of neutralize What's going on and and I think there's a confusion and you nail this in your conclusion that some of us will say well

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It's just that they're being liberal and I want to put names with this because you name some names, but but they're actually not

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Necessarily being liberal because they're trying to hold on to an orthodox Christianity While neutralizing it so I'm gonna give you the floor now who are the evangelical reconcilers?

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All right, well I this might this could be could be a long Explanation. So stop me if you need any clarification or make it simpler but I think

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I think you have to start with the idea that that that we live in a time with a with a modern liberal ideology that is not

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It's actually extremely pervasive within society. It's but at the same time it doesn't enforce itself

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So much with sort of brutality So if you look at old forms of enforcing a political ideology, it was often a form of physical brutality

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So you don't conform well Then the law is going to force you to conform or it's going to be very physical and it's a forcing to to to conform whereas this one's

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Modern liberal ideology operates very much on the realm. It's like psychological

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It's it's enforced rhetorically and you have these various social media

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Social media helps enforce this as well using I think weaponized a lot of weaponized terms

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So, you know being accused of racism is one homophobia xenophobia All sorts of these terms and and what happens is it becomes socially damaging?

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And you're forced to be on the rhetorical basically rhetorical defensive So you have so this is something where we're we're enmeshed in this environment

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Where we are dealing with and contending with a lot of these power terms power words weaponized language that then

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Has a lot of force to it. Yeah, and what's actually interesting is is a lot of these terms like the accusation of racism

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Is is actually very vacuous and what it actually means in itself It's one of the absurdities of our age where you have these weaponized language that actually in themselves don't mean a whole lot

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But they're extremely powerful so I say that then to say when because Evangelical Christianity is actually very antithetical to modern liberalism not only in social norms but also just in It's just the general view of reality in the world

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You're going to have Some kind of split between it. You're gonna have some kind of antagonism between the dominant ideology and Christianity and so what this article is trying to show is that there's really

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That because of that because of that divided divide between the prevailing ideology and conservative

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Christianity You're going to have these different groups form and so identify three groups the warriors the

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The capitulators and the reconcilers those those three groups So what's gonna what's gonna this is this actually the the outgrowth of these groups should be very natural

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It should actually make sense to us that this would happen So you have this social force that's trying to get us conformed to liberalism.

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And what is it? They see Christianity as a threat because historically Christianity within the

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West actually was a dominant force within society to Norm to create norms and to implement legislation and there's actually the prevailing, you know

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System of belief was Christianity for a long long time until fairly recently So very reasonably if you are a secularist person or modern

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I call monoliberalism Then they will see you as a threat.

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They will see you as a threat. Why will because you at one point were a Dominant force within the

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West and you're antithetical to modern liberalism So what's gonna happen from this is that Chris the different Christians are going to divide you're gonna have the what

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I call the capitulators Capitulators are people so I would say Jonathan Merritt is one of them. He's very active on Twitter and Atlantic of leave

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They're going to just abandon orthodoxy. They're going to abandon basic especially moral orthodoxy

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So they're gonna affirm homosexuality that sort of thing And and probably certain aspects of theology probably aspects of like atonement theology they very much look like the old liberalizers the the sort of people who wanted to shift conservative or you could say traditional evangelicalism or Christianity into kind of the modern age and that Ended up throwing out a lot of essential doctrines, especially you can see it in Sir, not doctors the atonement and that sort of thing.

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So this would be sojourners probably or yeah I think that would be a good group. Yeah Yeah, I think that would be a good group to think

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Yeah, and the mainline denominations and what they have Would be good example as well, right?

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So it would be mainly you think of like mainline denomination. That's that's a good example of it And a large part evangelical you think of Evangelical Christian today conservative evangelicals is in some sense a reaction to that old liberalization

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So we as like a tribe you and me and a lot of other people can see ourselves as conservatives who want to don't want

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That to happen again. We do not want that orthodoxy to slip again We want to maintain that orthodoxy within evangelicalism and don't slip in the old liberalization

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So I stop you right what that means it is We're very wary of that sort of thing where people start become moving away from orthodoxy

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So so I just you know, I thought of the story From when I was in college.

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I remember I had it was a secular University and I was the

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For all effective purposes the one leading the Christian group on campus and we had all sorts of problems with our administration

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I mean from getting equal access to student funds and being able to promote our

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Club on campus. I mean just just a whole bunch of stuff I had to call ADF at one point and just find out what our what our rights were

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I remember the Gideon's came and they made them like stand out in the parking lot so it was very antagonistic, but I remember

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I was in a music group there and the they They held this is for their entire like music department.

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They held their concert in it was a Believe it was an

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Episcopalian Church. They for the secular University. They went to an Episcopalian Church and the the

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Pastor I guess there was very involved with this and there was this joint effort and they had this Concert called live earth or something.

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It was affiliated with that to help save the planet and there was no problem there No problem with you know separation church and state kind of issues, which we were having with our evangelical group

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And so I think you just beautifully described kind of like that's the they don't see that as a threat They're capitulating.

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So it's like that they believe the same things. We believe they don't really believe the Bible's true and they and furthermore on all

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The social issues, of course, they're pro -homosexual and all the rest. So anyway, I just thought I'd figure it out there

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The important thing to view these guys in relation to the ideology is that they are basically the open Christian arm of the ideology

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They say hey look We're kind of part of this we That wouldn't say they're part of the ruling class, but they're very comfortable with being around Those sorts of people and they are the

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Christian face of it and they're trying to get you and us to actually be like them So I actually abandoned these these core tenants and actually kind of move towards so they're actually trying to in some sense

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Trying to proselytize us into the modern Ideology, so that's that's the capitulators.

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I don't talk a lot of talk a lot about them Yeah Then I'll just say the Warriors would be someone who's okay with the fact that we're a threat want to be a threat

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Want to assert us, you know themselves within society to try to change things can conform them to Maybe if not

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Christian norms at least human ones so that we could all be Equal in certain sense in the public square that we can we don't you know, there's no sort of prevailing ideology that excludes us

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So that they're the Warriors who want to be more self assertive and are not so much afraid of political power

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Okay, that sort of thing and there's there's a wide range. I think people who could be considered warriors You mentioned Doug Wilson is one example

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In your article, I think he was the only one is there anyone else that you can think of that you would put in that category? Well Yeah, I I think people when first first for it comes a mile would be something like I don't know a hunter

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Baker He's a I know him through Facebook. I I don't know how far he would want to associate with all this

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He would represent I think in part or a lot of people so Doug Wilson would represent kind of the more militant not violently militant, but more like the more more kind of a

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More very self assertive. What's what's kind of Christian eyes? Virgin maybe or Matt Truella would they kind of be in that vein?

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They're very countercultural very You know, I mean you can see some people would be like maybe like like Jeff Durbin might be as well

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He's I think he'd be one as well But I think another group I think within the warrior class with people who?

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See the public square not necessarily as one that has to be kind of Christian eyes But one where hey

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We should be able to allow to contend in politics and be agonistic just like everyone else and there shouldn't be this this like presumed

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You know negativity when we enter the public square and and try to formulate things

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And push things and shape things so that would be more like I almost like a neutrality or common ground argument

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I think those people can be war as well I know people would disagree that but I think that could be the case Well, that's like you just said because there is a certain sense of shame that I and I've heard this even when

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I was in Seminary, I heard this all the time that Christians, especially especially the more they align themselves with the

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Republican Party. They just want power and that's all they're after and It was almost like I don't want you know

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I remember having this thought like I don't want people to think that I'm just like after power and and so that The warrior class just doesn't care about that kind of pressure coming from the greater evangelical world

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They're just gonna go full full, you know ahead and they're gonna do what they need to do to implement the law of God You know,

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I think at their best I think the warrior people are gonna be the ones who recognize that we're all in some sense infected with this modern prevailing ideology

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It's in our heads. We're drawn to it. You see some of the people who have Kind of deconverted when they and like Josh Harris and other guys the way they talk about the conversion is that now they're at peace

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They're had there's a certain peace about it, which is really interesting We had talked about it. And I think that the warrior people realize that it's not only a battle in the public square

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It's also one in your mind because in some sense we can we can get drawn towards the peacefulness of just being of just kind of Melding into the collective

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And yeah, yeah exactly there's something peaceful about it so I think the bet their best the words realize

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That you that you you have to resist That psychological pressure that's inside you to seek after that easy route of peace and tranquility

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There's there's there is a certain cognitive tranquility with just kind of joining the masses in there in their sentiments

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And that's and actually just watch the deconversion narratives and they talk a lot about this idea of becoming

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This happiness and peace almost like this euphoric scent that they can release from that tension that they had to before had to contend with and just dive straight into The modern mindset and just watch for that that idea of peace

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So anyway, that's why I think warriors are very are self -aware in that sense and they resist they're not resisting

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It's not a like a resisting truth and like oh, maybe they're right it's more like just that that that I think we all have a desire to be kind of tranquil in our

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Mental, you know in our life not only you just just you know, and we're so we're gonna be drawn towards that but it's like the part of being part of Having a like a

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I find it kind of an this effeminate aspect to deconversion I'm just saying they've failed to resist

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They failed to resist that this this the promise of Tranquility from the world and that and so I think that's something that everyone should should make sure that they are self -aware of that So, yeah, you know, it reminds me of it's not like the man who divorces his wife or something and it's like, you know

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They were fighting they didn't get along and then he's you know, he makes this decision and then he's saying well

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I'm at peace now. It's just me and You know, I don't have to deal with all of that that that strife anymore and and anytime there's friction, you know

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I think weaker men, especially men who don't want to deal with conflict and play the part of a man They're going to retreat for the sake of peace pursuing their own, you know, the set of their own agenda that's not going to be a conflict with Some so, you know the external realities in their life so, you know,

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I think this is just so important and I see these two groups and It seems like there's a temptation to just see the two groups

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With some of us at least like there's there's the good guys there's a bad guys right and and of course in my mind the good guys are the guys that wanna they want to go and Exercise the

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Great Commission and if there's any limitation on free speech, they're gonna fight that they're going to take the battle to the world

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And the gates of hell will not prevail against Christ Church And then I see the bad guys as okay

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These are the guys who they've just created a truce with the world and you know, they're basically giving up orthodoxy

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But there's a group in the middle which I want to spend the majority of this on Explain the group in the middle to us and why this is important Okay so like I said before that we are as evangelicals are kind of wary of this liberalization and so when we think when we think

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People look they liberal they think although the old liberals gonna liberalize us But but if you think about if it's true that that this prevailing ideology of the modern liberalism

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Sees us as a threat, but at the same time We are gonna be resistant to becoming all capitulators.

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Well, what who is then going to rise up among us? That's going to then nullify us as a threat to the prevailing.

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I know what is it? What is the ideology that's kind of almost infects all was going who's gonna be elevated among us?

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Well, I think just from observation that that we have something called a reconciler group class

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And they are the most powerful people in evangelicalism at least in concert, you know in conservative evangelicalism.

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They're the most powerful group Because they have this sort of legitimacy as wise one.

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There's political sages despite being wrong about so many things And they get all the they get all the conferences.

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They get all the book All the all these things all the book contracts articles and you can see it in this isn't

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Christianity today gospel coalition and associated groups These guys will all be reconciled.

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So the idea behind reconciler is one They are not capitulators because they hold to a you know, they objectively hold to basic orthodoxy

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So I think Danny Aiken think it's how he says Aiken when he was Responding to some of the social justice

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Accusation that there is a lefty or social justice stuff. What did he do? Well, he ran through his orthodox credentials even even substitution atonement even, you know, peace penal substitute

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Imputation all that stuff He all that stuff where the old liberalizers

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Would reject he affirmed and said I'm not I'm not they know some sort of lefty

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But what these guys are is what they do is that they affirm that they affirm the distinctives that make it so that they can

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Remain in our camp, you know Objective identifiable is one of us but the same time they

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They have um, i'm not saying that they have like nefarious purposes or some conspiracy But they the reason they are elevated up is because they can find legitimacy um, because They propose an idea they propose

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Um theology that nullifies christ evangelical as a threat to modern liberalism. That's what a reconciler is

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It's they they remain in our camp because they they affirm our distinctives, but then they shape the way we think um

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And and who we affirm and and and uh in order to then nullify us as a threat In other words, and this comes out mainly in political theology.

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Well, not mainly one big area is political theology It's what I call in the article a neo -anabaptist turn and that's this uh attacking, uh attacking political power

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Um, they say that it's it's we shouldn't be obsessed with political power Um what what they specifically mean by that is often kind of lost

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Um, there's not a whole lot of political theory among these guys, which is very frustrating for a guy like me. Um But really it means that we are criticized for any kind of action that the self assertive trying to seize or Have some serious influence in politics through law.

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Um, I think this also means Uh culture as well so that there's a consistent critique of cultural christianity

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By which they really just mean I think christian culture outside of of the church. I think there means more there's more than that um, so in other words, in other words that they want to make it so that we do not assert ourselves in Society as people who bear the truth and want to then shape and norm society and politics and government and law with um with our our our, you know christian

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Perspective so tim keller. Is he in this group? I would say uh

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Yes, he he would be in this group as well. Yeah, so he he would this is where the the neo the neo -calvinists are are an interesting group because the neo -calvinists want to engage the culture, but they're really basically just They're in a large part kind of like old modern liberal political liberals

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They don't want any they talk about transformation, but it's really it seems like it's really their public engagement is really a matter of witness and evangelical like evangelism

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It's making christianity look attractive um to to uh people outside of it rather than actually a means of Of asserting and kind of securing power.

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Um and christian influence. I know when I was at southeastern uh The terms like gospel issue and cultural engagement became really popular like right after trump's election and I didn't really hear those terms before but they became big and a lot of the time they were applied to the arts so, you know getting christian film and Even you know, if you have a talent to to paint you should paint

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As a way to engage culture, but a lot of the time it was presented. It wasn't as you know the the thesis antithesis like show christianity in uh

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You know diametrical opposition offer a better way. It was it was more like well

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You're going to offer a better way, but you're going to do it by kind of like wooing The world in showing them how beautiful this is.

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I mean to men who are in darkness They're just going to see and of course god can can use things like that But it was a different kind of I mean you just mentioned being a witness and I think you mentioned alan noble's disruptive witness uh book and um, and and I I see a little bit of a difference with the way that they're approaching it it's uh,

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They don't want to offend the world. That seems like it's something they they're really against Yeah, I I think the way to the way to see it is that they want that they

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They are very comfortable and actually would would Desire and see as a default for for christians to be kind of the marginalized group in society so Within that marginalized community

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You can then show forth, you know various art and and and and do christian movies or christian

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Our film christian you can do all sorts of you know, um, uh arts activities within that uh

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And and and that's I I think that that's their perspective is is that that we're a marginalized community and then then we show forth

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All this creativity that we have and in that in that that's fine But what my point what

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I was arguing though Is that they are comfortable with that marginalization that they think that that's the default position

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And that marginalization despite all those other efforts to be to do arts and and all that sort of thing.

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Um That's really not a matter of saying Hey, we have a better way and by the way, this is the way it should be, you know out there right, um, it's really just kind of a a showing forth of uh of the gospel within a

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Their own marginalized community whereas and what i'm saying is that very perspective is the reconciler's perspective

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It's saying hey you guys should tolerate us or they call it religious liberty. It's really there's a difference between religious liberty and toleration um, but we won't get into that but but they're being um, you know tolerate us and Then show we'll show forth the gospel these arts and crafts, but we won't actually go out into the world

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To um do something about our marginalization. We won't demand equality in the public square

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Uh, we won't contend do like a harsh Harshly, you know harshly i'm saying, um, like very self assertively

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Uh contend in the political realm Um, we're not going to be a threat. We're not going to be a we're not going to be a threat to your order your political order

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Um, but we just want to be tolerated so that we can kind of do our our own thing in our isolated marginalized community

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And that's exactly what I mean If you look at the political theology and the way they talk about moral witness where they talk about gospel issues um all all the rhetoric and and the and the the subtle political theology the neo -anabaptist turn is designed to Make christians think of themselves as by default

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And it's even preferable that we are a marginalized Unthreatening community to the prevailing ideology of of the land.

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That's very interesting That's reconcilist. But again, they're they're orthodox in right in strict way in certain

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So the interesting thing to me is um, because you're helping make sense and put some pieces together that I thought

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I kind of understood But you you've clarified there's this this Sense in which all the gospel issues

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Are issues that do not directly oppose the prevailing ideology Uh, so the gospel issue is, you know, welcoming refugees.

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That's a gospel issue and it's like well i'm not against you know The church should be welcoming to everyone right but that they make that that's the flag we need to raise and that happens to be something that won't get us in trouble with the media or academia or any of the elites in the culture, uh, and and so That's fascinating to me and I I'd like for you to just give me your opinion on this

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You may not have been prepared for this. I don't know but uh, i'm gonna pick your brain here one of the confusing things

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I think Uh to myself, although I thought about this and I think I might know but to a lot of others is how did we go?

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from moral majority religious right in a sense like like Your jerry falwell's and your pat robertson's obviously they're the two there was others but you know, they're very much roe v wade happens and like we're going to now, uh,

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Be salt and light in the political sphere and i'm not saying they always did it, right? But but there was this attempt francis schaefer, you know to to get out there and to stop moral evil outside the christian ghetto and um and and now we have

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Completely abandoned that it seems like at least with the institutions and evangelical christianity and we're saying

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Hey, our ghetto is the best ghetto You should come because we've got and then it's like a list of things that we have that are

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Preferable to the outside world and we're trying to you know, woo them in so how did how do we? Make that switch um

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I I can't say i'm an expert with kind of the old religious right but I I think In part they're kind of well

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You could say in some ways that uh, uh, it's it's we're very similar

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Uh that the that these that are our evangelicals today are are kind of the same thing but look very different I I think the the old religious right?

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saw political activity as a way of of filling pews um and and this might just be one aspect and not the actual principal part of it, but There was a sense in which if you preach a lot of politics from the pulpit

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It would get a lot of people to go to church including men So I think there was a if you preach politics from the pulpit a lot of men will go to church so I think there was something an aspect of that of like a um trying to fill pews that I don't mean to say that that's the intent of the whole movement but I think today there is still the sense of well instead of doing self -assertive, um political activity we're going to then have our isolated communities make it attractive to The different people um and have them come in uh to church

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So it's kind of very similar but but how we how we got from there. I I don't I don't think I don't have a solid narrative um, but I do think that that uh,

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That that that these the people who think marginalization is the default the reconcilers they do think

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That what's hindering people from coming to faith or coming to church and by the way I think they mean like coastal elites, by the way

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I think most of this theology assumes a coastal elite um, uh attractional model um, but the the the marginalization, uh is uh, what what it does is it

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It it lets you present. It's basically a way of presenting making the church attractive But you're making a church attractive by affirming

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But but just going just far enough in your affirmation where you're still affirming orthodoxy

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So take these so they'll they'll say that homosexual acts for example are wrong that they're immoral they're against the biblical standard, but They'll go as far as possible.

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Many want many people in affirming Aspects of homosexuality or same -sex attraction or whatever just to make just to show that they are not the old kind of uh,

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You know dismissers that they're not gonna they're not part of the old oppressive regime So they're really kind of showing that hey the church is this place

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Where yeah, we don't affirm all this stuff but at the same time we will recognize affirm that the new elevation of celibacy is an interesting thing in evangelicalism that that's really

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Typically kind of a roman catholic thing um, but now this sudden affirmation of the

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Vocation of celibacy is an interesting. Um development. I think that again, it's affirming Uh, it's it's it's showing forth this attractive

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Um ecclesial community to the world to to try to get them to come to church in itself.

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It's not wrong, but my analysis uh, well, I mean there probably things wrong with it, but My point though is really what what function does this play within our society and my argument is that really these people who have elevated to do all these things are really elevated and uh, because of It it nullifies christianity as a threat to the prevailing ideology.

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So that's again. That's my my central point That's one point of analysis to understand these people Yeah, and I have so many things in my my head that i'd like to discuss with you

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But I want to get down to the kind of the main point here. Um, because you beautifully articulated these three groups and for someone like you and I who see

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Uh this we see the reconcilers as kind of a threat because we know that This is at best.

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This is a temporary Movement because they will either be I mean you can't really be

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In that state forever. You're going to be sucked to one side or you're as the state grows and the prevailing ideology which opposes christianity

32:07

Is set into more of a kind of like a hard national orthodoxy Those guys aren't going to have the influence they're they're not going to be um a force at all for anything and so Um, what do we do with that like How do how do we view them because because that you pin the difficulty there's an orthodoxy that they will affirm

32:28

But yet at the same time they are making they're neutralizing Any threat that the prevailing anti -christian ideology has so I mean, how do you navigate this in your own life?

32:40

Uh, well, I mean for me in particular like I said earlier, uh, I just I'd say again just be very self -aware

32:48

That we're all infected. I mean, it's almost like a disease My ideology works that way especially nowadays because we're bombarded with from from the moment.

32:57

We're born. We're bombarded with media Um, and it's it's stronger the ideology is stronger now than than it's ever been

33:04

Um, because before you you were isolated you were distant Before all this media you just had kind of a small social circle, but now it's uh, it's um

33:14

It's the control of it is is uh tremendous. Yeah, so be very self -aware of the ways, um in which you're drawn towards I'd say train cognitive tranquility be willing to do things

33:31

That seem uncomfortable, you know, sometimes you'll say something or say something on facebook or say something out loud

33:37

And you believe that what you're saying is true but the same time that you have that feeling of uh, do

33:43

I really want to say that yeah and And more than that, it's it's almost like it's like being so you're socialized into ways of thinking and action

33:51

So i'm from california. So of course i'm all about recycling Um, you know and from kindergarten we were talking about recycling.

33:58

I remember that. Um And or just driving down the road imagine you finish a burger and you throw out the package out the window

34:06

Um that would affect you Uh to me i'd be wow that was like wow.

34:12

What did I just do? There'd be a very a feeling of almost like self -disgust Um, and and of course that's good.

34:19

Don't throw burger wrappers out the window, but but there's also Aspects of thought that if you say something you can know what i'm saying is true at the same time that you have a

34:30

Subtle almost like self -disgust for saying it. Maybe that's too extreme way to put it But there's a certain self.

34:37

Um Uh, there's an emotion you say emotional psychological reaction to your own statement as if like you've made something public

34:44

And you're like offended by your own public statement in some ways and but we have to be willing

34:50

I mean want to be prudent and wise i'm not saying be jerks or or be dumb But but we have to but at the same time be willing to state what is true despite your own

35:01

Despite the own sort of cognitive dissonance discomfort, it'll lead you and work through that because that's

35:07

I think that's really important because what and I say that because the people who are reconciled

35:12

I mean i'm friends with people who i'd consider reconcilers Um, so I actually want to clarify something about that a little later.

35:17

But yeah, I think the draw for them Is they're intellectually? Convinced by christianity

35:25

But they at the same time are deep down I think enmeshed in modern liberalism that's my

35:30

I think psychologically they are drawn to it And that's one reason why I think that they are the ones and I think they're many of them are very intelligent

35:39

I you know, as much as I beat up on alan noble. I think the guy's very intelligent. Yeah, um uh and uh, but But because they have these like I would say monoliberal sentiments

35:49

They are the ones Because they're also gifted are the ones that then fill the slots as these reconciler slots

35:56

Um, but I think that they have a tension between what they intellectually affirm and what they also in sentiment

36:02

Um feel as well Uh, but we are all like that. I think there's a spectrum in a sense

36:07

We're all like that in a sense where we have sentiments that clash with our intellectual conclusions and what's important is that we

36:15

Um, we work to shape those sentiments around what we affirm intellectually uh, and uh, yeah, that'll be that'll be

36:23

I think the Um the important. Yeah, I think that's really going forward But but the reconcile is

36:29

I think they're going to be the ones who will turn into capitulators I don't see many of them becoming warriors, but um, they'll try to maintain that middle ground

36:37

But but just like in in the in the debates on racism and stuff You'll never they'll never satisfy the actual liberal regime.

36:45

You can't satisfy it because it's really in the end It's perfect conformity or or bust or you're out or you're you're done right and it seems to be approaching

36:56

Forms of physical brutality So we're moving away. We're moving away from rhetoric. We're moving or not.

37:03

We're moving away, but it's moving beyond rhetoric and psychological manipulation And uh that sort of thing and it's it seems like there's going to be more legal aspects to Um that undermine christian faith and there's going to be um, not more than and perhaps even the justification of of uh,

37:20

Of a certain physical brutality. I'm certainly you see some rhetoric antifa, of course all fascists

37:27

Um, and the media doesn't and some many like the portland mayor doesn't do anything to defend people who stand down Anything in charlottesville stand down, you know, yeah.

37:37

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely Yeah, that was that was really good You know the verse that keeps popping up in my mind is friendship with the world is enmity against god and I I see the reconcilers

37:49

And i'm not gonna put I don't want to put them all in one box that they're all the same and I know there's differences but um, but that's certainly

37:56

I think an issue that they all probably would need to think through like am I trying to be friends with the world here and what you're saying is, you know, don't don't think about that try and try to Rid yourself of that wanting to be friends with the prevailing

38:09

You know where everyone else is going and what they think and and just stick to the truth of god's word and what he says and um, you know,

38:16

I know You mentioned doug wilson as someone who's uh, you know, not a reconciler

38:21

Um more of a warrior And there's been times, uh, you know, i've wanted to I thought man doug made a really good point in this i'm gonna i'm gonna post this or whatever and then

38:32

I think I really want to post doug wilson, you know, and yes, I do. Yes. I'm gonna do that You know and I and I do it but like that little thought that like Well someone gonna think like, you know, because well, he's hated but I know he he made a good point here

38:46

You know that little struggle uh I think really gets to the heart of what you're talking about.

38:52

We all have it. It is like, you know, it's innate You know, uh, it's it's something in you know, that grieves our spirit in a sense and so I appreciate it

39:01

Yeah, I think that you people become people become Uh, uh easily toxic, um, and this is in part from I think social media particularly twitter um, where you can just be beat up by random people for You know doug wilson could be talking about eschatology and then all of a sudden someone brings up his old book from the 90s on race or from slavery and you're like, what do you

39:25

You know, it doesn't have any direct relevance to what he said uh, and but uh that happened to me that happened to me, you know, and uh, i'm gonna just share this

39:34

I mean this happened to me a few weeks ago with some guys. We were talking about something completely unrelated And someone went back on my facebook and found something from 10 years ago

39:43

I watched I had watched a documentary About uh, jefferson davis. It was called.

39:49

Um I think it was called jefferson davis an american president. And by the way, I I do endorse it You should go get it.

39:55

It's it's a good documentary of understanding Jefferson davis had taught me a lot of things I didn't know and actually it made me have some respect for the guy on a

40:02

Personal level like what he went through and so anyway um, I had put that that I I really like this documentary and I said

40:09

This guy's like a hero of mine now now doesn't mean I don't I have heroes in the in the north and the south

40:14

I have ancestry that goes back both directions. I honor both sides of my family and stuff But but yeah, I know i'm

40:19

I honored the southern side as well Well that in this conversation completely unrelated to that someone pulls this this thing from 10 years ago and puts it in john's a racist

40:28

John, you know and just and then it's like, you know, the mosquitoes like coming out it's like, you know 15 people immediately.

40:35

John's a racist. John's racist. So yeah um, that's the kind of thing where it's like you know, you can't have a rational dialogue and the temptation would be for me just like i'm never going to post anything that the you know, the world would think is controversial and that's wrong, too, so Yeah, um, but you know what happened there though is that they are they're actually using

40:54

I don't know if it's a christian or not who they're christian. Well, they claim to be yeah but what they what they're actually doing is that they're they are relying upon a rhetorical weapon that is um that did not arise from christian circles, but is actually part of the yes,

41:09

I'd say the the basic rhetorical move of our Society and they're using that as as uh, almost like a wind at their back in order to go after you

41:19

So it's a certain technique they're using, you know, it's a rhetorical device. It's a certain technique and that's kind of what i'm talking about in part what i'm talking about is

41:27

Uh, so someone like you who asserts something 10 10 years ago And then what do they do?

41:33

They think they're being I don't know heroic in some ways, but they're really just using this This kind of silly rhetorical device from broader society to go up against you um, and and they're probably then you can say they're even christianizing it too because maybe they bring up like the

41:47

You know the image of god or something like that I mean, it's it's like this the people who want to dwell on dignity human dignity this and that and but they just use the word image of god um

41:57

For all that so it's just a christianization of a rhetorical device Uh, I spent racisms

42:03

The accusation of racism is just one of those things. It's like meaningless at this point. It's just like no idea

42:08

They see you i'm why it's in some sense as a compliment if someone's going to go back. No one's done that to me I don't know what they'd find but but for 10 years ago

42:16

They actually go after they look at your stuff 10 years ago. That means they see you as a threat, right?

42:21

What's a way to nullify a threat? Will you use? You know if you're reconciled you you're going to use the tools available to you by the you know, the ideology um

42:33

To beat you down because that that's the in the end what's going to nullify or going to neutralize?

42:39

What's going to eliminate the threat? is actually going to be the very the tools of Um of the world

42:46

I say world I want to be clear but the the tools of modern liberal ideology, right?

42:52

And that's exactly what happened to you. I think that's actually a great great example Of what i'm talking about Which is one probably these people i'm guessing affirm a lot of all sorts of orthodoxy that you know

43:02

You wouldn't want to call them a heretic Maybe not but but i'm saying you can you can see it.

43:07

You can see how these guys would be orthodox Always except that except what they do as reconcilers if they're in your camp filling the meeting the distinctives but then rely upon The rhetorical tools of the ideology to then neutralize you and that's exactly what happened

43:27

I'm, not saying you've been neutralized, but that was the attempt, right? Yeah, and I have and I realize you know those who are you know

43:34

The people that are going to buy into that line of reasoning are probably not people that would be fans of me anyway, or like what i'm doing, that's fine, but You know,

43:43

I I was thinking. Um I want to make this final point see what you think but shame is often used to control people in false religions,

43:52

I mean and you know, obviously, uh for reform christians were very familiar with the reformation and kind of like how even in selling indulgences and um

44:01

Just the way that the catholic church financed itself was based on shame And I was uh,

44:06

I was reading this the other day. I think it's um Oh, I want to say second, uh timothy where paul talks about false teachers going in uh to these like Widows houses who are weighed down.

44:19

It says weighed down in sins and they take advantage of them and um, there was a situation, uh with uh you know close to us where someone was it was it was like a church leader and it was an adulterous situation and um,

44:36

And it was pretty much that verse to a t and and we had talked to this individual and um, the story was well, yeah

44:42

There I was, you know, I wasn't going to do it anymore and there was this shame and this person this church leader would keep showing up at the door and um, and there was like a manipulative tactic to use previous sin against this person to get them to keep sinning so shame is just one of these things that you can use to Get people to do what you want them to do.

45:04

And that's what I see It's so dangerous and this reconciliation motif is willingness sometimes to use that shame i'm saying everyone's like that but But i've seen it far too often, uh using the world's standards to to bash someone who's in the warrior kind of mentality of you know, um

45:24

Come to our side be like us be neutralized be effeminate really I don't know.

45:29

What do you think about that? Is that I I would say that that that shame in itself is not a bad thing.

45:36

It's actually very good for society to have formally speaking um to have some to have shame, uh,

45:44

I About the right things. Yeah for for a long time. I actually before these last few years.

45:50

I was a big advocate of the idea of a community giving kind of nasty looks at people who are doing the wrong thing, you know,

45:57

I For a long time I I said that and I said that christians I said christians should do it too because it's a way of social discipline and make sure we all piece of another

46:07

If you do something wrong, I remember telling a guy what are you going to do if a guy? Again, it's like throwing trash.

46:13

Let's say guy drives down your street And he always throws cups out the window and makes a trash your neighborhood Are you going to confront him or what are you going to do?

46:20

um and uh try to get him to stop, um, that's part of our I think christian or just part of our uh, being in being in a a good world is that you have to kind of say

46:30

Stop that, you know look at him. Anyway, so shame itself. I don't think is wrong. But um, No, no, and I wasn't saying that but the world standard.

46:38

Yeah. Yeah, but this is this is my point is that the way they shame is uh

46:44

Almost always I and I can't think of an exception. Maybe there are almost always With the like say the the wind of the world or the wind of liberalism

46:56

At their backs, you know what I mean? So I like one example is the covington kids the covington kids example

47:02

You had all sorts of evangelical leaders Going after those covington kids, you know the the incident with him and the uh, the on the dc steps with um, like the like the the black nationalist and and the um, american indian guy and They all just went after them too.

47:20

I I wrote a actually a blog post on that of sovereign nations Like jd. Greer, um, all those people, um went after him uh, and uh, uh, but that's just another example of how

47:33

They are just take their cues Of what to be outraged about what to shame about from the world.

47:39

So there is really Like, you know, you're opposed to refugees or you're opposed. You're xenophobic.

47:44

You're racist. You're nativist. You're whatever you're you're a nationalist and that's all bad Um, yeah, yeah

47:51

Yeah, it's just it's one thing to shame because you cheat on your wife or something You know, it's all because you shame that person, right?

47:59

um, because that's an actual thing that's Clearly, you don't do it. But then if you're doing that or if you're doing anything simply because as a as by the force of the ideology

48:10

And by the way, what it does is actually record does the reconciliation of by which you know

48:16

I mean that makes you right massive it pacifies. That's another word. I meant to use in my piece was that it pacifies you in relation to Um the world, um in terms of politics, right?

48:28

It seems like there's two ways of dealing with different Quote -unquote sins, um, you brought up the guy who threw his trash out and I could see someone being like no wait

48:37

Like don't give them a nasty look or you don't confront them go find out what their story is What led them to throwing that cup out because that's the way that is one way that it seems like uh, they do homosexuality is like the number one thing or any sexual sin really that now the reconciliation evangelicals uh will use

48:57

In that regard they'll say you need to go find out like what what led him to make that decision and you know

49:03

There's there's things you don't understand. It's like you have to find out all this knowledge or you know gang violence you know, you need to know what it's like to live in their conditions and then to an extent that's true you should be like empathetic and understanding but but like they have that language towards that but if you if you do something like You know, hey,

49:19

I like the documentary about jefferson davis 10 years ago It's like boom, like there's no like trying to understand it's all condemned, you know, right?

49:28

and i'd say I mean one thing that I think important thing about the kind of homosexuality

49:34

Homosexuality issue. I think there has been Some there has been some good in kind of understanding people's situation

49:41

So before people I think were very kind of dismissive and disgusted by even just the idea of same -sex attraction so I think there's been some good in the movement towards understanding these people um, and seeing them seeing them as as chris as fellow christians who have um, some sort of pattern of uh, uh,

50:01

Of sin in life just like we all do. Um, but I think the the big The big thing to look for though is not that Though there is some aspects that to talk about.

50:12

I think it's also the matter of elevating these people as um as as some

50:20

As if they're they are like some grand benefit to the church As being um that deserve a certain distinct class

50:30

Um among other christians the rise of celibacy for example Uh as as a as a sort of um higher calling

50:38

I mean the way they the way we talk to talk about celibacy often sounds like it's a sort of heavenly calling as if it's

50:45

As if there's like a two -tier christianity There's like the rest of us and then there's the people who are the higher celibate ones

50:52

So just I think it's also a matter of ecclesiology how they how uh, we're kind of elevating people in these important And again what that does your marginalized community

51:02

You show yourself out to the world look who we are. Yeah, we're still orthodox, you know, right same time

51:08

Look at the way we affirm all these various identities. We didn't get an identity politics But we affirm these various identities within our church.

51:16

So imagine again. It's like we're an island And we're or no we're a city on a hill and that and and we're we're kind of you know

51:23

It's like it's the same sort of thing. We're a city on on a hill and if we get this, right guys All these people are going to kind of celebrate our

51:32

The way we reflect heavenly politics or whatever and what does that mean? Well you have a front and center before the world

51:42

The various identities that they hold sacred and we're affirming them So what are the various identities?

51:49

Well the idea of you know, a lot of race stuff a lot of sexual stuff um

51:54

Being very multicultural all these things is like having a separate island presenting ourselves to To the world as an attractional model.

52:02

I really think it's a sort of reverse attractional model not reverse But it's like the same coin flailing on two sides one one used to be let's do politics and all these men will show up to church

52:13

That's that's like the old way People would be mad. They said that but the the other um, you're in trouble with both crowds at this point

52:21

But then the other side is uh going to be um the opposite which is uh

52:27

Pacification. Yeah, but um affirming, uh, all these, uh, uh cultural norms of coastal elites

52:33

There's a really good example of this I think in the living out because they have a church audit Where you can make sure that your church is a safe space for homosexuals who might want to come there

52:44

And I know that nine marks churches some i'm not saying all of them at all But I know some nine marks churches have used this uh, and I don't know of anything out there to like well, like let's pick another sinful inclination like You know and when

53:00

I say the word racist I mean in the old sense of actually devaluing someone in ethnic pride and so forth But let's let you know, let's let's talk about like a church um audit to help make you you get friendlier to Racists, you know make them feel comfortable so they can come and worship, you know understand them like that's not out there that is like It's crazy talk right, but we'll do it with something that the world like a sin the world says all that that sins

53:23

Okay, so it's it's fascinating. It's exactly that That that's that's an excellent point.

53:29

Yeah, so if you look at the sort of people That we are we ought to be kind of missionally concerned about you'll notice that the alt -right are really not in the top of the list

53:40

No, uh, the the so -called nationalists that they'll they'll call I mean they'll call people

53:45

Probably you and me. I don't know your politics very much, but you probably call me like some sort of christian nationalist So that's a bad thing.

53:51

Um And uh and want to distance themselves from me But but they'll also want to become buddies with people who are at revoice and kind of pushing the extremes there as well uh, and so yeah, you just There's something about gospel issues like the whole term gospel issue

54:08

Is is you have these phrases? It's really just kind of this selective Uh, it's uh kind of this ad hoc selection of issues just like you have this ad hoc selection of identities that you want to affirm or or um,

54:23

Be missional towards whereas the other ones you attack, but why do you attack nationalists? Why do you attack these other people?

54:30

Why well because they're the ones who are most hated by The modern liberals so modern liberals hate trump supporters

54:37

They want to beat beat them as we heard a few days ago from msnbc. We should beat them as one guy said um

54:45

Uh, and so, uh, but who who do you affirm? Will you affirm all their sacred identities? So it just perfectly maps

54:52

I mean if you just look at the the chief concerns of Reconcilist evangelicalism the chief concerns

55:00

Almost perfectly match apart from abortion almost perfectly match modern liberalism

55:06

Except that it's uh to the extent that they don't actually violate basic orthodoxy, you know,

55:13

I mean Again, the capitulators are ones who just go all out into that camp Reconcilers push it until they can affirm just up to the point of not abandoning orthodoxy.

55:24

Yeah, and that's an Excellent excellent point and that's really what I wanted people understand you know,

55:30

I was um, I was looking at this video that of uh, Walter strickland and some of the things he said about james cone and deotis roberts and You look at you read cone and you read roberts and they're like, yeah, we don't take the bible literally like yeah, like orthodoxy like that's how they they act but then

55:48

Strickland who's more of a reconciler? He's like well, we can take good ideas from these guys. We can chew up the meat

55:54

We can spit out the bones and we can keep our orthodoxy while also

55:59

Uh meshing it with their liberation theology And and that is what

56:04

I see out there, you know And and it seems like the guys who are the capitulators are actually more consistent They're at least admitting like yeah, you can't really have biblical orthodoxy and try to maintain this um, which is why

56:14

I don't think the reconcilers are going to be around for two for long, but you know, that's my prediction. I don't know if you know, you see it that way, but uh

56:23

Yeah, we we've been going actually. Wow Time flies when i'm talking with you. It's been like an hour. Um I really appreciate you talking about this and making it understandable to my audience and hopefully layman is who

56:36

I try to make this for Um, we didn't even get into two kingdom theology So i'm gonna have to have you back on when you write something about two kingdom theology sometime um, but anyways

56:46

Just say one more one more thing Uh, I don't think I mentioned so when I talk about these reconciler guys

56:52

What I want to make clear is i'm not demonizing them, right? I'm not i'm not saying this to be kind of you know

56:57

I want to maintain peace i'm saying this but I think it's true And I think most of these guys are not even don't even realize what they're doing what they're up to because uh, because They're well, yeah, so i'm not i'm not saying they're the bad guys

57:14

That we should demonize that somehow we should kick them out of from our camp uh So I think actually and i'm not saying they're unintelligent.

57:23

In fact, I think they're actually many of them are very intelligent. Um, I know them Uh friends with many of them.

57:28

So i'm not trying to like attack them saying hey you guys are actually on order Get out of here I do but I do think that they are mistaken and I think they're self -unaware

57:37

Are they're unaware of the of the way of the role they play? in our society

57:43

And I think if if anything what i'm saying is that we should all Being all of us on a spectrum in the ideology.

57:51

I really think it's important to think that way um, we should all Seek to become self -aware and then and then change our postures towards each other and towards the world

58:05

On account of that self -awareness I think put that put that out there. I'm glad you said that i'm glad especially after my last comment

58:12

Which I didn't I agree with what you just said. Yeah, absolutely. They're not necessarily enemy but uh, anyway, yeah, where can people find you if they want to I know you write for sovereign nations

58:23

But yeah, I mean you can find some of my writings on sovereign nation I think the the best way is you can you can google my name and then

58:31

Uh, not that i'm very famous for anything But if you put my name and then uh do lsu or some or or or evangelical or something like that You'll usually get a list of things i've written.

58:41

So if you're interested in all that i've written on two kingdom theology Or i'm a fan which some people think now now i'm the reconciler

58:48

But we didn't get to that. Um, but yeah, nice nice. So, um Yeah, so I I look forward to seeing more of your writings and uh,

58:56

We'll have to connect again when to talk about two kingdom theology sometime. So, thank you Yeah, thank you.