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Welcome back to the Point Taken Podcast. We're glad you could join us today with us in our mini pockets. Today, if you've seen by the title, we are going to be talking about if different denominations of the Christian faith can all go to heaven.
So today on my right, your left, we have Pastor Christian Torres. He's our, I'm about to say, are you or Pastor Jeremiah our youngest? Is Jeremiah younger? He's the youngest. Okay. So our second youngest pastor on staff here.
And then over to my left, your right, we have Pastor John Franklin.
And he's one of the older guys. The oldest? Nope. The second oldest. Really? Okay. Pastor.
Jeff is older than me. By how much? Like a couple of years? About three years. Okay. But he's still older. He's still older. So this conversation kind of came about when, you know, you learn about different cults and different faiths and stuff and like Jehovah's Witnesses or, you know, people who practice Scientology, like all of those cult type religions, you know, as a Christian, that they are not going to heaven.
But what about different Christian denominations like Methodists and Lutherans or Catholics, like whatever it is? We know that sometimes what we have in scripture doesn't line up like with the Catholic Bible.
They have a couple of other books in their Bible, and then other denominations interpret scripture differently. And so how do we know what the right denomination is? If there is one, I know the answer, but, you know, just posing the question for the episode.
So we wanted to start about Pentecost, right? The main picture.
Of where we came to be with the denomination. Well, actually, and I didn't say this before, but we need to back up a little bit more. When Jesus ascended into heaven, that's when He established His church.
When He said, I'm going to prepare a place for you, He told us to be His witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea, and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth. That's when He established His church here. Man in our infinite wisdom has messed it up and divided it up and just sparsed it out so much that there truly is only one true church.
And I don't think any, I personally don't believe any specific denomination has it 100 correct. I just think the Baptists have it more correct than the other denominations. But then like I said, at Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit came down on the church and anointed the church, that's when we truly saw it go from the 12 out to everybody.
And I know you were talking about earlier before the podcast that separation, the first church split, right, of the circumcision party and uncircumcision party. Which way do you go? Is there works involved or is there not works involved?
And each split down the line from that point forward is ultimately, in my belief, do we do more works or do we have more faith? That's what each split really came down to.
For a long time. So yeah, the first church split, you could say, was the Jerusalem Council, Acts chapter 15. You know, starting in verse 1, when some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, quote, unless you are circumcised according to the customs of Moses, you cannot be saved.
And after this was a huge big old party. All the apostles, everyone met up in Jerusalem to have a discussion. Now, a little side trail here. I loved that the apostles respected James' authority in the Jerusalem church.
James was the pastor and so the apostles, they didn't impose their will. They spoke their peace but allowed James his authority to make the final call on what needed to happen. So it's really cool that the apostles, that sort of highest level of church leadership, respected area leadership.
Right, the local authority. The local authority. Of course, that will come in handy when we start talking about specifics concerning denominations. In terms of denominations, I think it's kind of important to go over the three main types of church governments.
Because at the end of the day, the majority of denominations, it's basically a difference in how they structure their leadership. So for Catholics, mainly Episcopalianism is what they adhere to. It's the rule of the church by monarchial bishops.
It's like a pyramid. You start with, I guess you can say God. Human wise, you get the Pope. This could be anybody. You have one main authority.
Yes. Mormon church is set up like this where they have the prophet and Methodist churches are set up like this. The Catholic church is set up like this. There are quite a few that are set up with that hierarchical form of government.
Not laughingly and jokingly about it, but it is a lot like a pyramid. It's a pyramid scheme. It's a pyramid scheme. You have one person making all the decisions. Whatever they say goes. A lot of cults are going to be set up like this.
Oh, yes. 100%. Because you have that one person that has all the power and all the authority. And all of the.
Revelations. Well, that's how you maintain power. If you keep the secret small only to one person or.
Group of people, that is how you make money. Right. Because you have to rely on me now in order to... Right. No, I'm not going to rely on any man for my salvation. No, of course not. That's what this.
Says for sure. Right. And then the crazy part about this type of church government is that the leaders of the people are chosen for them. The people have no say in their leadership.
It's appointed from someone higher. The top down. Top down. Everything comes from top down. Well,.
In the case for Catholicism with the Pope, who chooses? Because I know there's a process,.
I just can't... Right. So if the current Pope was to pass away... There's no vice Pope. Right. The Council of Cardinals will convene and they'll cloister themselves and sequester themselves until they get enough votes to have a new Pope.
Put somebody into office, if you will. I think.
This election, I saw a video on it, this election of how to elect a new Pope is extremely complex.
Yeah. And almost political. There's very much political involved in it, yeah. How many cardinals are in that council? I don't know. Off the top of my head right now. I'd have to look it.
Up. To get the approval of all those people that high up, you need to be really high up. And I don't.
Think it has to be 100%. I think it has to be a majority. Again, I'm not a Catholic. I don't know all the ins and outs of choosing the Pope. But when you think about it, they believe the Pope is infallible when he's sitting in St. Peter's chair.
I heard it's 21. Well, at least.
They said he names 21 cardinals. Actually... New cardinals. Not to go off on a tangent on that.
Piece, but the Pope's recent comment about blessing gay marriage... Oh, the union? You want to call it marriage? He calls it a union? Yes. So he's not acknowledging that it's a marriage. He's acknowledging that it's a union, and he wants the Church to bless it.
There's a lot of Catholics worldwide that are saying, no. See, here's the line. He crossed it. And so they're questioning.
This bit of infallibility of... Well, logically, if you look back through history, I would struggle because not all Popes have agreed. So just because you're sitting in it does not make me infallible.
I mean, look at the Crusades. The Popes were condoning that from St. Peter's chair. That obviously was not infallible. St. Peter's chair. He is rolling over his grave right now with that sort of nonsense.
St. Peter's chair. Anyway... But that's one of the three forms of government.
Yes, that is one of the main forms, since Catholicism is currently the number one version of Christianity in the world right now. I'll skip number two. We'll come back to that. Presbyterianism. So this is basically what the first one was, except there is no one single person.
It's the council. It's ruled by committee. It's ruled by committee. So for a regular Presbyterian Church who adheres to this form of government, it's the people elect the pastors.
To make the decisions. It has to be a group of elders, not necessarily all pastors. That is true. So it could be people that have been in the church for an extended period of time. People that are knowledgeable in wisdom, but not necessarily a pastor.
So it's a committee of those people. So is it kind of like a non-denominational? No, they'd all be of the same denomination. But Presbyterian Church is a prime example, if that's right, Presbyter. But the local church will say, okay, we're going to hire the pastor, but the pastor may not even be part of the elder board.
The pastor may just be subject to the elder board. That's a good distinction. The elder board are the ones who are making all the decisions. So think about literally the church is being led by committee, and that committee has all of the power, all of the.
Authority. And to be fair, if I'm being completely honest, this form of church government is most efficient. Because you don't have to wait for a congregation to make a vote. You lower down the amount of people in the decision-making process, so it's more efficient.
It's more.
Dangerous, but it's still more efficient. Because it'd be really easy to get Pastor Christian in there and, oh, well, we have an opening. Let me put my buddy Jeremiah on here. And next thing you know, the whole council is taken over by people that all support his.
So in essence, you end up with another hierarchical form. It just looks like a committee's doing it. It's kind of like a.
Political party. You have like ideas within the same party for the most part. Not every opinion is agreed upon, but most likely the ideas are similar. You're absolutely right. Are we, as far as our.
American government, are we a Presbyterian or a congregational type government? Does my vote really... I vote for someone to make the decisions. Does that really matter.
Because of the electoral system, the electoral college? It really is more Presbyterian because.
We elect officials to make decisions for ourselves that we didn't make. Right. So, you know... Politics. No, it's during the... When I was studying the separation of church and state, the church has influenced the government since our very founding.
It's the way we're designed. I mean, the Bible was open. That's why it resembles like a church government. But you know how that goes. Right. Up and down. Last one. Congregationalism. That's what we are.
Right. Every person has equal vote. My vote is equal to anyone else's in the church. Right. That.
Power, that authority comes from the local body. No other Baptist church can come in here at Whitten and tell us how to do what to do. In a hierarchical form, you have the bishop telling the local churches what to do.
In a presbyter form, you have the presbyter telling the bodies what to do. And with the congregational form, all that power and authority, it's not in the pastors. The pastors have been elected and hired by the congregation to lead in the direction, but they serve at the pleasure of those that they lead.
Right. I know many a time, I've said it from the pulpit, I've heard other pastors here say it from the pulpit, that you can fire me for what I'm going to say. I'm going to tell you what the truth is, though, to paraphrase what we're saying.
I'm going to tell you what Scripture says. If you don't like it, you have the authority to fire me. So that's where the authority is coming from, the body of Christ,.
Not from me. But we also have a committee, like a co-op committee or something like that. And so those are the ones who kind of decide if we get like a really big donation of some sort. And the co-op committee is like, okay, these are what the accountants look like.
This is what needs to be fixed in the area. These are what we think could be done. And then we put it in front of the church.
To vote on it. So yes, our co-op committee functions more as a fact-finding committee. And they go out and they find the details. We know there's major repairs need to be done. Hey, we have this large, let's bring it to the body.
This is what we'd like to do. The body can say no. They go out when we need a new contract for something. They're the ones who go get the quote rather than trying to bring all the 20 quotes, narrow it down to three and bring it.
Rather than bring the body 20, they narrow it down to the top three. The congregation then has the authority to say this. And they always have the conversation at the business meeting, members meeting, that puts that authority back into that congregation.
When we're talking about denominations, the biggest difference isn't really theology or doctrine. It's form of government. Each denomination, I guess, for example, we know Baptist. That's such a broad term.
We have so many. Over 200 forms just in America. Over 200 forms. Of just Baptist? Yes.
I didn't know that of just Baptist. We have independent Baptist, missionary Baptist, Southern Baptist. Those are the only three that I'm familiar with down here.
I'm actually wondering, do other Baptist churches in our area have a co-op committee? How do they.
Make their decisions? From other churches I've been in. Some of them have multiple committees and some of them end up being like a presbyter form. They call them a committee rather than a.
Presbyter. Yeah, it's just like you put a mask on it. Does this determine whether you're saved or.
Not? No. But it does go into your theology and your doctrine.
This will 100 affect your theology.
I mean, when you look at the problems that came up in the church, they dealt with it on a congregational level. The Corinthian. When Paul said, look, you have this man who is sleeping with his father's wife.
You're letting him be in the congregation. This is what I would do, but you're in charge. You do what you think is right. He had authority of the apostleship, but you guys are in charge of this. Matthew 18 talks about corrections in the church.
The final authority isn't the pastor, it's that congregation. Correct. Bring it to the church. Yeah, right.
I got three points here. Here's what we know from Scripture. There's obviously more, but these are the three that I found interesting. Which one of these is right? Which one of these is wrong? Is there one that's more sinful?
Is there one that's more righteous than the other? Here's what we know so far. The office bearers in the church are nominated and elected by the members of the congregation, i .e. Acts 6 .5 -6, but must also be examined, confirmed, and ordained by the present board of elders.
So the people elect, but the pastors are the ones that go... Final stamp. Final stamp. And you can find proof of this in Acts 6 .6 and verse 13 and in 1 Timothy 4 .14. So I love that checks and balances.
The people can, hey, we want this one, but ultimately the pastors who have to put their hands on and go, okay, this one.
Right. So the people say, yes, we think. The pastor is the one who tests them. The deacon, those are the ones that are high and have that authority in the church from knowledge, not from authority based off of power.
That makes sense? Yes. So you have that authority based off knowledge because they're the ones who are teaching Scripture. So are these people up to the level where they can teach? Do they fit the qualifications?
And then again, it's going back to that congregation because that congregation is the one that actually is ordaining them.
Right. So cool. All right. Next point is each congregation and center of leadership is to have a plurality of elders. Acts chapter 14, verse 23. I believe that's PHIL. I forgot. Is that Philemon or Philippians?
Philemon. Is it Philemon? I thought so. Philemon 1 .1, not a one man rule. I've been to so many churches where it is just a singular pastor. But when we look at Scripture, it's always a plurality of elders working together, not just one on his own.
I couldn't imagine doing this on my own.
I think you are talking about Philippians.
Was it Philippians? How would you abbreviate Philemon?
I wouldn't. You don't actually have a Bible in front of me. When I'm actually writing out my note, I do write out the whole. If I'm not copying and pasting from a computer program, I write out the whole thing.
Oh, let me work. Let me work. Let me work. I think it is. He's like, now I have to. Yes. Here we go. That's what I was looking at. Yeah. Yes. Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus to all the saints in Christ Jesus, who are at Philippi with the overseers and deacons.
Multiple. Overseers is also down here, bishops, or in Greek, episkopoi, which leads me to my next topic. There is no distinction between elders and bishops in Scripture.
Right. It's the same office. Elder, bishop, pastor, all of them are the same office. Bishop, Christian. I think I like that. No.
Bishop. Too wordy. No. You're a pastor. Yeah, right. So back to the question, can different denominations go to heaven?
Well, I would say, let's go back to what Jesus said. I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. So your first question is, is it a denomination that is following Jesus Christ?
If not, then automatically either Jesus was lying there and is not God, or Jesus was telling the truth, and you have to go through Jesus. So that automatically knocks out any denomination that does not follow Jesus as the Messiah, which knocks out a bunch of religions in the world, not to mention denominations.
Galatians, if anybody that teaches another gospel, let them be an anathema to you. So anybody who is teaching something outside of what Jesus taught, I see that as being opposed, and those people that are truly following that are following a religion and not Jesus, I would struggle to say they would not be in heaven.
So let's take a specific, like Methodists, for example. They have female ministers. They condone same-sex unions. I'll say unions because it's not a marriage, like the Pope said, because he even recognizes it's not.
So what would you say to a practicing Methodist Christian who believes in that, I guess? That's a two-part question. Because could they really be saved and then have opinions like that?
Well, I'd like to split that question up into the idea of female pastors. Go for it.
Well, before we even get there, let's break this down. Again, it comes down to those two words that we teach a lot here, doctrine and theology. You have to understand what those two things are. So first, a doctrine.
What is a doctrine? That's a teaching. It is a truth that we find in Scripture, and you're going to find it from Genesis all the way to Revelation. It's in Scripture. God wrote Scripture, so it cannot be wrong, right?
So doctrines cannot be wrong. The doctrine of grace, we see that with Abraham. We see that with Adam. We see that with Paul. We see that all the way through Scripture, we see the doctrine of grace, right?
Theology is man's study of God. Men can be wrong. We can err on theology, end times theology. There's multiple different studies of what the end times are going to look like. There's a doctrine that says Jesus is coming back.
So as long as a church is following that doctrine, then they are okay. The theology can be wrong. Pastor Josiah, who's on the podcast most Sundays, he and I have different theologies on the end times, but our doctrine is in agreement.
So we don't have to necessarily agree on every point of theology to make it to heaven, because Jesus is the way to heaven.
1. I think, too, that's where a lot of people get hung up on is if they have a differing opinion about Scripture, like you said, the end times, it's like, okay, is the 1 ,000-year reign a literal 1 ,000 years, or is it just metaphorical?
Is it just like an extended amount of time that feels like 1 ,000 years, if you will? So a lot of people might think that same-sex attraction is a theology versus a doctrine. It's like, no, it's wrong all through Scripture.
It's not a theology where it's like, oh, that's a man's interpretation of whatever, and then it's wrong. So I feel like.
That's where a lot of people get hung up on stuff. Dr. Darrell Bock Right. So can a different denomination be in heaven? Yes. I believe there are going to be Catholics in heaven, because they truly believe that Jesus is the way Jesus died for their sins.
Some of their theology is skewed. Methodists, same thing. Multiple denominations, we can say the same thing about. All these 200 different variations of Baptism, yes.
I just had no idea there were that many. I was like, I knew of like three.
Dr. Darrell Bock It's insane. So to answer that particular question, and let me be extremely clear when I say this. I think that you can have a female pastor believe in gay marriage and still make it to heaven.
I believe that that is a massive theology issue, but I think you can have faith, a very infantile amount of faith in Christ, and initially believe these things, and the Holy Spirit later comes and starts chipping away at those things.
But to look at someone and go, yeah, they support these two things. They obviously can't be saved. It's a very dangerous thing.
Dr. Kinnard. Well, and too, I've used this example before, if it hasn't been aired on the podcast, it will be now, with the topic of abortion. I mean, I've been a Christian for years, and I only thought that abortion was all the way wrong.
A handful of years ago, but I was a believer. And I'm just like, well, you know, that's not for me. If someone else wants to do it, that's their decision. I'm not going to say whether that's right or wrong for them, but I would just never do that.
And then several years later, I'm just like, oh my gosh, no, it's wrong all the way around. But that doesn't make me any less of a Christian. God just opened my eyes to see, no, this is murder. And so I like what you said, because it's like, even though your church has female pastors, or you think gay marriage is fine, even though it says in Scripture, it's not.
It's like, God will use the Holy Spirit to speak to you through Scripture, and open your eyes, and remove the veil from your heart, and really change you. So I think that was a good point.
Now, the problem arises when you resist the Holy Spirit. When there is obvious rebellion to the Scripture. It's like, hey, let's talk. Let's have a conversation. That's...
Like the cherry picking that we do.
Right. The cherry picking. And like you said, that specific resistance. Scripture says this. I'm going to refuse to believe what Scripture says.
But you know what aggravates that? Christians who point the finger. Oh, you're going to hell because you believe this. Have you tried having a decent conversation with them? Have you tried sitting down and getting a cup of coffee?
We don't know what that is. And just talking with them. Hey, I don't want to offend you, but this is what Scripture says. And I know that means that everything you've known is a lie. I know that means that your community is based on a lie.
So we're asking these people to deny so much. So we need to be considerate of, yeah, this is the truth, but I'm going to give it to you gently. They don't need to be rebuked unless they obviously show resistance, and you are a member of that church.
Yeah, and it calls for that.
Correct. Well, and there are actually two women at our church that were able to sit down and have a conversation about abortion, and one of them was totally okay with it, and then the other one wasn't, and they were able to have a civil conversation, and the other person ended up changing her mind for the abortion no longer being okay.
And so it's like you reach more people with being sensitive, understanding, caring, empathetic. Think about how you would want to have a conversation happen with you. Your opinion's not going to be changed if someone yells at you and tells you that you're an idiot.
It's like you're going to hunker down even more on your opinion and be like, okay, well, I'm not talking to them, and you just shut down. You have to be willing to have those conversations with people, and it's like, look, I'm telling you this because I love you, but Scripture says this, and you're doing this, and this is wrong.
It can never come to the point that this is my opinion. This is what Scripture says. You brought up homosexuality earlier. Yes, I believe homosexuality is a sin, but that sin is no worse than my sin. That's correct.
If Dalton was sitting there looking at Lowell in a lustful way
I mean, Lowell has a pretty nice beard, Dalton.
Then that is a sin, but it'd be no worse than me looking at a woman in lust. It's the exact same sin. It's just, do we act on it? Do we succumb to it? Do we deny ourselves and follow Him?
Which one do we do? I feel like that's where a lot of churches fail is that they're like, instead of I'm just paraphrasing instead of having all of our members struggle with this, let's just okay it.
Exactly. And we're just going to approve it because this is the culture now, and this is the way it is, and we need more females in the church doing the things and preaching from the pulpit, and I'm not okay with that.
But just talking about even the gay marriage, it's like, oh, if this would make our members happy. It's just what's in the culture.
This is what society said. Well, the Word of God never changes.
Right. So you're changing God's Word to fit what culture says today that is going to continue to.
Change even though God's Word never changes. God never changes. God himself, he's immutable. He never changes. Correct. So he's not going to change his mind just because society decides to.
Our feelings. I feel that we should do this. I feel like that's like being a good parent. You know, like the rules are the rules. Like my son's been doing stuff, and he starts one, I'm like, them's the rules.
I'm like, I don't know what to tell you. And it's like you don't change on that because they feel a certain way about it. Like there was an instance just this last week, I ended up having to text my accountability group about it because I was really struggling.
I'm like, this kid is driving me nuts. I want to make sure I'm doing the right thing. And I felt like I was being too hard on him for what we were doing. And I remember one of the women in my group was like, well, does he know he's disobeying?
I said, oh, yes, like he knows. And she goes, no, you're fine. I was like, but I feel that I was being too hard on him. And that made me want to let up on the discipline that I was providing our son. But I'm like, no.
And I told him, I said, I feel this way, and I know what the truth is, but I'm still struggling with feeling a certain way. But it's like, but it doesn't change the discipline. It doesn't change the punishment.
It doesn't change what happened. Like, them's the rules. And so with Scripture, like Pastor John said, is Scripture is always the same. It does not change based on our culture because the culture changes minute by minute.
Yeah. Every 10 years. There's a new gender. There's.
A new gender every day. Well, 2010s, the culture now says your feelings are more important than the facts. Right. What are facts? No one can even say. My feelings change 12 times in the first hour that I wake up.
That is true. True. You get on the interstate to drive to work. If I haven't gotten my coffee yet, it's probably going to be even more than that. I know. But I can't base my life on feelings. Right. I have to base it on facts.
And that's what I like about, well,.
I love about Scripture is that it doesn't change, and it tells us what is right and what is wrong, just plain and simple. So we know better. But like you said, with people's theology, they take this and they construe it to fit their narrative of whatever it is.
And that's.
Where you have the problem. So I belonged to a non-denominational church. That's the trendy thing now. Y 'all ever heard of interdenominational? No. Okay, good. I'm not gay. I don't even know what it is.
Interdenominational. I feel like it's multiple denominations in one house. It sounds like. Either way, I belonged to a non-denominational church, and this was a satellite type church, meaning that every Sunday, a pastor from a particular location, the main pastor, the almost like apostle pastor, would preach and we would broadcast it the same way, what's that big church, Life Church?
Yeah. The same way they do. I remember this one Sunday, his topic was homosexuality. And I'm thinking, what is this man about to say? And he said, you know, I want to believe that homosexuality is okay.
Me, as an individual, I believe it is okay. But I've researched and I've read scripture, and I've read and I studied and I meditated. And although every fiber of my being wants to agree with this, scripture does not.
And so I am forced to leave behind my personal feelings, simply because the Word of God says so. I see no damage. You love whoever you love. It doesn't affect me in the slightest. But simply because the Word of God says so, I have to believe it.
Right. That is, that's a perfect example of what we need to do is, of course, on the list of sins, I would probably put, you know, murder and other sins that I'm not going to mention up here and then homosexuality down here, as far as like danger to society.
But it's just a mentality of, I acknowledge my feelings, I acknowledge my bias, but the scriptures say this, and they haven't changed. And so I have to believe in this.
Yeah. It was very comforting. But therein lies part of the problem, though, Christian. A lot of the people that are going to church, and that's part of the problem, they're going to church, they're not part of the church, right?
Yes. A lot of these people aren't studying on their own. They're just being fed. They sit down on a Sunday morning, they never open the Bible Monday through Saturday. They sit down for an hour in church on Sunday, listen to a man get up and speak, that may or may not be even telling them the truth, right?
And they don't have a way to fact check it, or they choose not to fact check. They choose not to, because they're being told what they want to hear. So many of these denominations are being led by people that are leading them straight to hell.
It's like we were studying this morning in Matthew 23, when Jesus is talking to the Pharisees, woe to you, you brood of vipers, woe to you. You search the world for a proselytite, but when you find them, you make them twice as fit for hell, because you're teaching them false doctrines.
You're teaching them false theology. You're teaching them all these things that are taking them away from Jesus. You're making them twice as fit for hell. That should be a terrifying.
Thing for people. Will y 'all ever hear when Pastor Steve taught Sunday nights? First of all, one of the most phenomenal teachers that I know. I took so many notes, and when I came to this church, I was converted in a Pentecostal church, but I was reformed here.
Fantastic. Two of them I could see you as a Pentecostal. Oh man, I love Pentecostal churches. I love so He still has a little of that in him. Yeah, I was about to say, that's how I could see it.
But two most important steps in my Christian faith, obviously, is my conversion, feeling the Holy Spirit for the first time, and then my Reformation. Understanding doctrine and reading it through and through and going, oh, so this connects to this, and it's not just like a random assortment of books.
It actually has a connection. Anyway, so Pastor Steve, there was one time where he taught a lesson completely built on a lie. He would say some really crazy stuff, and nobody would rebuke him. They would just sit there and go, uh-huh, uh-huh.
I don't know what it is, but towards the end, he goes, guys, I've been lying this entire time, saying contrary, biblically inaccurate things, and no one stopped me. I was like, oh man, I probably was there.
He did that to a Sunday school when he was teaching Sunday school as well, and when he got finished, he told them, I lied to you at least five times today. I want you to tell me what they were next Sunday.
Oh my gosh. But that is, it's a failing on the person because we're not taking the time to study to show ourselves approved, right?
Because there have been some things that have been said from the pulpit, and I'm just kind of sitting there, and I'm like, I don't think that's right. Personally, I don't think that's right. That's not how I had interpreted this said scripture, and so I'm like, and the pastor's preaching on it, and I'm reading from it, and I'm like, okay, no, that makes sense, but I'm fact-checking him during the sermon, and I'm just like, okay, making sure that that...
Well, I think any pastor that's worth anything welcomes that from his congregation. Oh, for sure. Right? Any pastor that says, you can't question what I tell you, well, that should be a red flag right there.
I have my sermon peer-reviewed at least 10 times before I preach it because I'm so... Because once you say something, you can't take it... You can say, hey, I didn't mean to say this, but number one, it still stays in people's minds, and number two, what if the person that heard it is no longer there sharing that over there?
It's truly terrifying.
Well, a prime example, I was at Hamilton preaching out there, and I had said something... I had gone through my notes, and I misquoted a passage. Oh, my heart. Which is why now, if you look at my notes whenever I preach, all the passages I may want to say are written in there.
100%. That way I can read them rather than try to quote them. Got my list right here. So I misquoted. Luckily, I'd finally gotten the people there to the point where the deacon called me to the side afterwards and said, hey, you said this, but it says this.
So I welcomed that because the very next Sunday, I got up in the pulpit and said, guys, this is what I said. And you made that correction. Right, because I didn't want the people... Again, I am so terrified with that judgment that we're going to be facing, Kristen.
Hebrew says that we're responsible...
You speak to me directly. No, because I'm not the pastor here.
Hebrew says that those that are leaders of the church are going to be accountable for the souls that are under their care, right? That's why I put every single one of them. I copy and paste. I make sure that it is in there verbatim because I don't want to misquote again.
Yeah, because you're seeking that accountability for that. And I think that's very healthy. Well, and it's like the same, I think, about the responsibilities that God gives men, especially husbands. And I tell my husband all the time, I was like, man, I'm glad I got it easy because you have all this responsibility on you.
And I'm just like, I'm really sorry for you. I'll just be over here doing my little list. You know, because it's like in Ephesians, the wife's section is like this big, and then the husband's section is like that big.
Have you ever been to a different denomination? Have you ever been part of a different denomination?
I've never been part of a different denomination.
Growing up, I was Free Will Baptist. Free Will Baptist. They actually teach that you can lose your salvation.
Ah, that's a jab at Calvinism, isn't it? A little bit, yeah.
So that would be a doctrinal issue. That would be a doctrinal issue, yes. So that's a no-no.
Right. But that is what brought me to Christ. Again, that's another reason why I believe you can be part of a different denomination. And still, just because I thought I lost my salvation doesn't mean I actually did.
Oh, I've lost my salvation so many times in my mind.
I love where it says that my salvation is secure in heaven. Praise God for that. But anyway, I started off there. Went to college. Did stupid stuff in college like most people do. Went away from it. Came back through the Methodist church.
So I was Free Will Baptist and I was Methodist. Then I became Baptist again.
But just Southern Baptist, not Free Will Baptist. Right.
Free Will Baptist. I've never heard of that one. But because I had studied enough by that point to understand, hey, I am eternally secure. My salvation is kept in heaven for me. That's where my inheritance is.
I don't have control over it, so I can't lose it. Right. Right. So luckily, I've actually preached in that church that I grew up in. Oh, really? That's awesome. So have I, actually. Full circle. In Puerto Rico.
So I was actually able to preach. My very first message that I preached after being called and surrendering was in that church. Wow. Boomerang. Going back. Oh, it was beautiful because I had the opportunity.
I will love these men until the day I die because I was one of those bus kids. And I can remember different times. Some of these men coming into my bedroom and saying, no, John, you're getting up and you're going to church.
Never could do that nowadays. But I can remember my parents would be gone at work and they'd come in. You're not going to stay in bed. You're getting up. You're going to church. So I was able to go back and thank them for that, but then rebuke them a little bit because they never taught me to study on my own.
You just need to show up. Right. They taught scripture to their doctrine, to their theology, but they never taught me how to study on my own. So that's why I went so far afield because I didn't have that foundation.
So I was able to rebuke a little bit and say, hey, you did this well, but you failed in this part. Our job is to teach you to study. It's not to tell you what scripture says. Our job is to teach you to study on your own.
I believe that the preaching and the teaching that happens in this building is some of the purest water I've ever tasted.
Kendra and I were talking about that before the podcast, and it's like the churches that we grew up in, you just took scripture at face value. You didn't question it. You didn't have your own opinions.
This is what it was, and you just took it or leave it or left it. I just felt like that was such a big deal. Then she said, when I came here, it was such a drastic change where it's just like all this information is just flooding in.
You feel like an idiot because the church is talking about doctrines and theology, and she's like, I just thought there was one doctrine. Just doctrine, not doctrines. I said, oh yeah, I learned so much after coming here.
I said, I still learn stuff that I've forgotten or whatever. It's such a disservice to that body of Christians within those churches who do that because it's like you're halting your church's sanctification in a way,.
But in their growth. So when Dalton was in the youth group, I think it might have been youth or just leaving youth, I took him to a different church youth service so that he could see what it was like at a different church.
Yeah, because he's only been here, right? Yeah. And so, you know, afterwards, all right, so tell me what you saw. Well, I kind of like this and this, but they did this, this, and this. I was like, I'm telling you, we might not get it right all the time.
But comparatively speaking, doctrinally, theologically, we are safe and sane. I'm very critical, as we should, as everyone should be, of everything being said because we will be judged by our words. I have found things that I slightly disagree with with Pastor Jeff as far as sermons, but nothing ever that, oh, I need to rebuke this man.
Right. It's so clear. Right, and if it is, it's minor. It's like end of the world stuff that's like obscure and wrapped in poetry. But no, it is truly pure. I went back through some of my old church notes from my other churches because I remember collecting them.
I, from a young age, I love preaching. I love teaching. I look back and I go, there's no meat. There is no meat. I remember that. I remember I started a particular sermon. I said, this is the best sermon I've ever heard.
Nothing but fluff.
Yeah. Nothing but fluff. And I'm like, I ate this up as a kid. There are so many pastors out there leading denominations that are, all they're doing is giving a motivational speech each week. It was an amazing TED Talk.
Amazing TED Talk, let me tell you.
We need to have a Christian TED Talk. Because these people on the TV would make excellent motivational teachers. Yeah. They would, and I give them that.
I'll call them out. Joel Olsteen, great motivational speaker.
Heretic. Stop calling him pastor. Yeah, I'm about to say, he's not a pastor. I didn't think I said that. No, no, no. I'm just saying, if we stop calling him pastor.
You just said Joel Olsteen. He's a great motivational speaker. But I remember flipping through, when I would work nights, I'd flip through channels and have to stay up all night anyway on the day off.
Let me listen to this just to see, right? Because you want to know. I don't think I heard a scripture come out of the man's mouth. No.
He never once opened his Bible, never once referenced. That's how he gets around it, he paraphrases. Yeah, and he never once opened his Bible.
But that's just an example. There's so many of those false teachers out there just telling people what they want to hear, and those people are not going to be in heaven.
When we get to it, I have a list of some of the richest pastors and their properties and how much they're worth, but we'll get to this in a second. By the way, there's a jet. My first picture's a jet.
It's a little private jet. A little private jet. For those who don't watch the podcast.
Yeah, because you have to have one of those to proclaim Christ, right?
For sure. You're a real pastor if you have a jet. So I guess I can tell my story. Yeah, for sure. As far as denominations go. So it all begins with my grandmother. She was a Catholic.
And during... Was she Roman Catholic? Yes, Roman Catholic. And this was around the time when my mother got pregnant with me. But she began questioning the church, questioning like, you know, why do we pray to saints?
These are honest questions, because I'd like to know. It wasn't even maliciously. It was simply, I'd like to know. So that I can, instead of feeling that someone told me, I can know for a fact, no, that's what the Word of God says.
She remembers as a kid pulling the idol. They are idols. But bringing in the statues and sat whenever there was a storm. Because, you know, we can't let the statues, you know, get damaged. And I think it was her uncle owned a candy store.
And there were like little idols around. She would cover their faces with a cloth or something to take the candy. So they wouldn't see. Anyway, so she started questioning. And she started attending a Baptist church Wednesday nights.
Super secret. You know, because the Catholic church can't know that you're going home. Undercover. No, undercover. She felt like it was undercover. And she began opening her Bible for the first time. And going, huh.
She had the same revelation that Martin Luther had of grace. It's, wait a minute. I don't have to work for this. I don't have to do this or that. Or pray to anybody but Him. There's only one mediator.
Right. That's what I never understood is that they pray to the saints or pray to Mary. Because I'm like, well, they're all dead. That's what I just, I never understood that. Well, yes and no.
I mean, to be absent in the body, be present with the Lord. So they are technically. Physically dead. Can they hear? But it says there is one mediator between God and man. That is Christ Jesus. Right.
So why am I going to pray to somebody who is not my mediator? Yeah. It's just a waste of time.
But you said that she learned that. Yeah. And so she began attending a Baptist church. When she brought up all these questions to her priest, they shunned her. The church shunned her for asking those questions.
Because you don't ask questions. You just obey. And for any Catholic that is watching, obviously different churches, different priests. It's so nuanced and different. But the one particularly in Puerto Rico, casted her out.
She was excommunicated for asking questions. But she was converted in this Baptist church of which I was born into. Now, let me also specify. The one that discipled her as a Christian was a female pastor.
The Baptist church that she was attending had a female pastor. Where the husband sat in the back. Where we sit up there, that's where he sat. And so I didn't think that was wrong. Because I was an infant.
I was a child. But when I got here, I got to thinking. I owe the beginning of my faith, obviously to the Holy Spirit. But my discipling in the faith to my grandmother. Who was discipled by a female pastor.
And now I'm a pastor here. And now we're going to Puerto Rico to the church that I was raised in and preaching there. So I have a mercy to female pastors. Scripture's clear. Scripture's clear, in my opinion.
But he uses broken things and bad theology still for his purpose. For sure.
He can use anything he wants for his purpose. Correct.
So during our missions trip, either last year or the year before, we helped churches that had female pastors. We didn't call them pastors. We called them, hey, sister this, sister that. But we still honored the fact, you know what?
You're working. You are working. We respect the fact that you want to help here. It might not be your role, but you see no one else doing it. And so you go after. And that's something worth commending in our female leaders here.
But after that, I moved to the States, jumped to a Baptist church. And then after that, I went to Hispanic Baptist. Which, by the way, those are crazy. Those are crazy. Because Hispanic Baptist has pretty much been a constant.
Yes. Yes. A lot of speaking in tongues. And that's when I first got my taste of charismatic and I said, this is fun. It's like a faith with no rules. It's like you can dance here. It was like the charismatic movement to me as a child felt like Christianity was superpowers.
Because God can tell me the future. I can put my hands on people and they can get healed. There's power. There is. I see this and people fall. It was Christianity with superpowers. And it was fascinating.
I started growing up and I started seeing the flaws in that idea of those denominations. A huge emphasis on, well, again, being sensitive that not every church is the same. Confusing the Holy Spirit with your emotions.
And then having your emotions be the one that dictate this. Because we can all agree with what it says here, for example. But the Holy Spirit is telling me that this says this. Your emotions or the Holy Spirit?
Because if we're all here, we should all agree. Because there's one singular message. And so I was converted there. There was a lot of tongues. And when I was converted, I do believe I spoke in tongues.
But it wasn't when they thought that I did. So I was converted and it was a youth event. I mean, music was great. The lights were great. Concerts. But for me, it was real. For me, it truly was real. Because I surrendered to Christ that day.
I noticed there was a change. Minus the lights. I went to a youth retreat with seven other youth. I'm the only one who made it out a Christian. Nobody was converted except me. And yet they all claimed that that was the day they were converted.
So for me, it was real. I was at the line at McDonald's ordering a double bacon burger. And I started speaking in tongues to myself. It's crazy. Like in your head or out loud? Out loud. It was just something that I felt like saying.
So I said it. And there was no one around. Obviously, scripture says that private tongues, there is a peace for that. But nobody was there to interpret. It was just me. And I said, what on earth was that, Christian?
Are you out of your mind? But it felt so natural to just speak it. That even to this day, even looking back at 15-year-old Christian, I go, you know, I'm going to choose to believe that that was tongues.
And so I won't say that I do speak in tongues. It only happened once for a brief 10-second period at McDonald's. But it wasn't in the church service. It wasn't during the lights. It was just me waiting.
And I go, halalala, say my peace. It was so crazy. But having experience in all these denominations, I can tell you for a fact that the Holy Spirit has been active in all of them.
There has been fruit in all of them. There again, Christ established one church on earth. You look at the Pentecost, they know how to worship, right? Here at our church here, you walk down to one end, they know how to praise and worship.
I'll give them that for sure. You have us that know how to teach. You have the Methodists who are very great administrators, right? All of the man has separated us up over stupid stuff. Like you said, the color of the curtains.
Churches have split over. Yeah, our last church split over the color of carpet.
Yeah, stupid man-made nonsense. We have separated the churches.
That's what Satan wants. If there's more division between us, then we're not all going to...
It's like more people... The more division, the more confusion, the more... Yeah, he's going to separate us. I want things to be where it makes me feel happy, so I'm going to go there instead of them telling me I have to change.
Well, it's like, oh yeah, they have a better worship service. They have the lights and stuff. That makes me feel more emotional and closer to God.
Trying to do an emotional reaction rather than letting the Holy Spirit do what the Holy Spirit does. For sure. And that's a terrifying thing. I've been at that church that pastor's up there preaching.
It's getting close to... Pastor Jeff and I went to Nicaragua a long time ago. Oh man, a long time ago. Yeah, that's like almost 10 years ago, yeah. Yeah, 2011? No, that was Alaska in 2011, so 12, somewhere.
Anyway, we're in there. He's preaching at a rather large church down there, and they didn't have air conditioner running in the building until about the last 10 minutes of the service.
Oh, that altar call was nice.
They had ladies walking in the back spraying air freshener at the last 10 minutes of the service. I know where this is going. They're trying to engage and make you feel rather than letting the Holy Spirit do what the Holy Spirit's going to do.
They were trying to make an emotional reaction, and for many people it did.
Worldly speaking, that's brilliant. Biblically speaking... Oh, repent.
I remember. In 2011 is when I surrendered to my call to preach, and 12 is when we went to Nicaragua. They had actually asked us to preach at two different churches on the same night, and Pastor Jeff looked at me and said, I guess you're doing one.
I was like, okay. Speaking in tongues? No, I can remember going to that church and preaching that night and them trying to get me to lay hands on, to slay in the Spirit.
Oh, yeah. We talked about that on the TikTak.
Super power. I was like, I will pray, and I told this to the pastor. I will, because I had done my message. They were doing the altar call, and they were trying to get me. I will pray with you. I will pray for you.
I'm not going to pretend to do something.
And he'll quote-unquote heal you. That's blasphemy.
Oh, man. That's using the Lord's name in vain, claiming that an act was done by the Spirit. Right.
Well, that's the whole point of that apostle, Catherine Kirk, or whatever, that we watched. I'm glad you brought her up. Captain Kirk? Yeah, Catherine Kirk. It was on one of the TikTok reactions that we did recently, and it was one of the last ones that we did, in case you want to watch the episode.
But, yeah, she heals him in what you said, slay in the Spirit, and in the name of, what is it, the demon of addiction, and the spirit of addiction, and all these sorts of things. That lady's a wackadoo.
She is crazy, but, again, brilliant manipulator. Oh, yeah.
It is amazing how many of those people that claim that will only let selective people.
Come up to receive that. That's what I was actually watching, and I told Pastor Josiah this a few weeks ago when we talked about that TikTok in particular. Tick, tick, tick, tick. Sorry, that was a lot of T's.
But there was one reporter who ended up doing a journalism piece on faith healers and stuff like that, and there was this one guy who was obviously a vegetable, could only maneuver his wheelchair by his little handles and stuff, probably had cerebral palsy, something like that, something that is not going to be healed, like a forever congenital disease.
He kept wanting to go up there because he believed that if these people just touched him and prayed for him that he could be healed, but they would never let him on stage because they knew, like, oh, this guy is going to skew our results, if you will.
But, yeah, it's like they hand select certain people, and it's people like the spirit of addiction, you know, like struggle of addiction, things that you really can't see. The demon of alcoholism. Yeah, it's a thing that you can't, that's not visible, so you can't see, like, oh, they had, or what's that one who, is it Todd White?
Todd White, he's the one, he has, like, really long dreads or whatever, and he does the thing where, like, oh, if your feet are uneven, he'll fix it, and it's like he literally just tilts the foot, and it's like, so a lot of people don't do the visual representations like that because that's accountability because, oh, well, your limp's back.
Yeah. Or this is back, or, you know, you're back in your wheelchair. It's not like the addiction of where you can't just see that.
I would publicly challenge any of those faith healers, walk up in St. Jude Children's Hospital. I promise you, every single one of those parents in there would gladly let you lay your hands if you could truly heal that child.
For sure. Bypass all the rest of their chemo treatments and have their hair grow back and heal the.
Body. Why was it during the COVID pandemic and all the shutdowns where the faith healing churches closed?
That's what Pastor Josiah said. Actually, the apostle, that same apostle lady, quote, unquote, she actually did a Skype or, like, a Zoom meeting with the other girl, and so the girl was, like, convulsing on the opposite side.
I was like, this is just so freaking weird. Like, I can't get around that. But, so, I don't know what her problem was that, you know, probably wasn't, like, an actual illness or anything. But I just, I think it's so sad.
And, like, what Robert was saying at the end of that podcast when we reviewed that TikTok was that when he was in rehab, they had kind of, like, one of those guys come, and it's like, oh, you know, the spirit of addiction.
He's like, and I wanted to be healed from that.
I was about to say, someone's phone. Sorry, that's my, that's my weekly alarm for a new member class. That's okay. We're almost done here. I forgot about it.
I was about to say, we're almost done here. But, so, he was talking about how they had one of those guys come to the rehab, and he was talking so desperately how he wanted to be healed from that. And he's like, I was just so desperate.
So, he's like, I let him, you know, put his hands on me, like, whatever. And he's like, you know, I wasn't healed of anything. But it's like, I think people just get there out of the desperation that they have for that.
But anyway, so we can move on.
We can do this last point, and then. Yeah. So, I kind of developed three things to look for in a particular domination or church that would signal that you got to dip. You got to run. And the first one is sexual morality is tolerated or allowed.
So, this is primarily with more liberal churches, Methodists, Lutherans. These are the ones that are openly accepting of these things. But I also want to give a mention to churches that hide rape and assault.
Oh, that. I was actually watching Dr. Jason Deloney or John Deloney. I think he's like with the Ramsey Solutions or whatever. He's a counselor. And he had this one lady who called in saying her husband touched a minor inappropriately.
And that the pastor and the person's parents and then her, like her and her husband, they had a conversation about it and decided not to get the police involved and that he was just going to get help.
And he was fuming. Oh, yeah. Because he's like, you always call the police no matter what. So, yeah, that's a huge red flag. Yeah. Always call the police. Revelation 2020. Aren't pastors mandatory reporters?
Yes. So, FYI. Is that a law or is that morality? No, I think it's a law. Both. Well, not both of the laws. For sure. But I think it's both.
Mandated reporting is a thing. Yeah. Thank God it is. Medical professionals are that too. Yes. Revelation 2020. But I have this against you. You tolerate that woman Jezebel who calls herself a prophetess and teaches and deceives my servants to commit sexual immorality and to eat meat sacrificed to idols.
So, we've got these like mega denominations saying, yeah, we allow this, we allow that. But, man, did you guys read the 209 report of all the Baptist churches that had sexual crimes? 209 page document.
Bellevue was one of them. Pastors who either committed something or hid something. You know, Baptists in particular need to stop pointing at, well, Methodism. Oh, yeah. Point to yourself. Your leaders are abusing their flock.
Ezekiel 34 type stuff. It's you're feeding yourself. Yeah. You're taking things from the sheep. You're allowing them to be scattered. You abuse a sheep and then you don't let them come back. You cast them away as some sort of leper.
Or what's worse is I hear about it and then I ignore it. Oh, man. Because all it's doing is leaving that wolf in the flock.
Yeah. If at any point there is any church that hides this type of crime, whether pedophilia or any sort of sexual immorality and convinces you or tries to say, no, we can handle it inside. First of all, call the cops.
Don't wait for... You file the police report. Yeah, you file the police report and then that pastor can get what's coming to him. But two, you run.
You get away from that church. Now, I will say this just for due diligence. Don't always accept everything at face value. Correct. Do the full, like, make the report. Let the police do their job. Yes, that's a good clarification.
Let the police do their job. Make sure it is a founded accusation because sometimes there are people that just want to get back at. Oh, for sure. So don't just assume everybody's telling the truth, but make the report, right?
And yeah, let the cops do their job. Yeah, for sure. Second thing, pastors live to gratify themselves. So I'm looking at a million dollar cars. I'm looking at mansions. Let me see. Reverend Dollar. Creflo Dollar.
You already know. His name is Dollar? His last name is Dollar. Did he change his name to Dollar? I don't think so. He's one of the prosperity gospels. Name it and claim it. I think I've heard of that guy.
Oh. It's just ironic that his last name is Dollar.
He asked for $300 donations from each of his members to replace his old jet.
What happens with the salary that he's getting? Like, that's on top of his salary?
2 .4 million dollar mansion. So I printed this list out to show that these all come from different denominations. One of them, I'm sure of them, would classify themselves as Baptist. But each denomination has their own wolf in sheep's clothing.
Yes, it's pretty insane.
Again, I would challenge any of those pastors to point out an apostle that lived that lifestyle. God wants you to be... If the ones who walk with Jesus did not reap the benefit of this world, why do we think we should?
Culture's different, Pastor John. No, God wants you to succeed. We have nicer things. Yeah, God wants me to succeed and be happy.
Job doubled his amount. He's going to double your amount today if you give sacrificially. He took everything away from him first.
Yes, yes. You realize the only thing he didn't take away was his wife?
That's a sermon right there. Anyway, and the last thing that I would have, Pastor, is the Word of God is either interpreted falsely, combined with a different word, or disregarded entirely. In Mark 7, verse 14, I think it's the one.
You nullify the Word of God by your tradition that you have handed down, and you do so, and you do many other similar things. Your creed, the Book of Mormon. See, well, that's a different cult, but it's still...
I do believe that you can be Mormon and be a Christian. It can be awfully hard, but... But I would say... You really have to try. I can't just say flat out, nobody in this particular Christian-based faith is a non-believer.
I can't say that there's one person that believes in Islam and is saved. That I can't say. But as far as for Catholicism, Jehovah's Witness, Mormonism, it is possible, since this does exist, that there is a chance that somebody...
Romans said, anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved, right? If you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord.
But typically, people that are saved in those cults tend to... Tend to leave. Yeah, for good reason. Expelled or leave on their own. But they typically...
But again, leave. It's going to go down to how much are they truly studying on their... How much are they truly getting in?
Well, Jehovah's Witnesses are condemned to do so. They have to... They have to read their Jehovah's Witness scripture, which alters what John 1, 1, in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a God.
Right, and that's just one verse. They have other... New World Translation. New World Translation. They have to read that translation accompanied with the Jehovah's Witness text, or whatever they're called.
I can't remember. They're a published... They're publications. Watchtowers. And they have to do that, but then you don't question. If you have any questions, you have to refer to the Watchtower. Right.
And it's like... I hate that. Refer to the Watchtower. Well, but then too, it's like other type of cults. It's... Everything is very integrated. It's just... Well, I wouldn't even say integrated. It's just...
What's the word? Y 'all help me with words. Which one are you trying to describe? What word? Confining. Yeah. It's just very confining. Constricting. Constricting, yeah. You can't... You have certain people...
There is no questioning. There is no... There is no questioning. People who come and work on the church, if it needs a repair, other Jehovah's Witnesses that were sent from a certain place to fix it. You have these other...
You can't go to certain places of worship, whatever. If you talk to people, they'll come to your house or whatever. I ended up scaring one of them off a couple of summers ago because I quoted scripture to her.
And so she ended up coming up, but she wouldn't have the conversation with me. It was always pointing to her Watchtower publications and stuff like that. And then I scared her, and then she tried to scurry away.
And so they won't tend to converse with you. They're just regurgitating what's been done. But also the faith, if you will, that they're in, they're deterred from having any opinions and asking any questions.
So that's a big red flag. And you know, with Islam, they don't believe that Christ is the Messiah. And they have other certain things like that.
So those are big doctrinal issues. Actually, I think Muslims believe he's the Messiah.
But he's not the God's son. Exactly.
They use the title as God. God did send Jesus because he's a prophet. But they fall short of he is the son of God.
Either Jesus was lying, and if that's the case, he is not who he claimed to be. Despite what many people try to say, he did claim to be God. Before Abraham was, I am. You can't get around that. The Father and I are one.
They just omit that. They just kind of gloss over it. They don't just omit that. And this is other denominations too. Either Jesus was telling the truth, and he is the only way, or he was a lie. You can't have it both ways, right?
Right. You can't say, oh, he was a great prophet, but he lied in this one aspect. Well, no, then he wasn't a great prophet. He wasn't the prophet. Right, no. He was claiming to be God. He was claiming to do all these things.
Either he is who he claimed to be, or he wasn't. Right. Truth is truth.
Right. Truth is truth, 100%. Did you have anything else you wanted to touch on?
I guess to circle back to your question on my opinion of whether different denominations can be saved, the answer is yes. And I think that we will be surprised who we see in heaven, because I believe we will see some of these people that would associate with certain cults, like Mormonism and Jehovah's Witness in heaven, that truly believed, but that particular body hindered them, or they were just starting to leave.
But of course, if the Word of God is there, even though it's skewed, there's still a possibility.
Well, the Holy Spirit can speak to you through anything, like we said earlier. He can use whatever avenue he sees fit to do so.
We have to be careful about blanket statements of these people. Well, unless the scriptures say it specifically, I can never say that no Mormon will make it to heaven, because that's I mean, I at one point wasn't going to make it to heaven.
I think we're actually in our Sunday school class right now, we're talking about different world religions, and I think next week we're going to do Mormonism. So I'm excited about that one. We talked about JWs last week, and then we talked about Scientology, which is whack.
Yeah. We talked about that one today. Except those. Except those, they will never make it. Yeah, that one will never make it to heaven. But again, they're not based on Jesus Christ. Yeah, that's humanism.
Scientology is definitely humanism and the form of Satanism and the JWs and stuff.
So I think ultimately the answer you're like Pastor Christian said, yes, they can. I think it's scripture says, study to show yourself approved, right? A worker who does not need to be ashamed. That's right.
Each of us are supposed to study. Right. And I think despite whatever denomination you're in, you need to be studying the Word of God and making sure the church you are attending is in alignment with the Church of God, the Word of God, right?
Right. Because again, multiple denominations, but Jesus only left one. Right. We can call ourselves whatever we want. I don't have to worry about what denomination I belong to. I need to worry about, am I being obedient?
Jesus said, if you love me, you will keep my commandments. That's what I need to be I don't need to worry about where I'm attending.
And I would add to that, if there's someone that's looking for a church, obviously Witten Baptist Church is the place to be. But If you're in the area. If you're in the area, of course. But definitely don't leave a church if they're wrong in a few theological points.
Right. You're never going to find a church that's perfect in all aspects, that has the form of government you want, the theology that you want, the preaching style that you want, the ministry events that you want.
It's not going to work.
Your toes should be getting stepped on every once in a while at a church. You need conviction. You do need conviction. If you are constantly feeling comfortable, you're probably not in the right place.
They're probably telling you what you want to hear, rather than what the truth is.
Right, 100%.
So the three Catholic priests ending with this on my end the three Catholic priests that were on the Titanic I remember I preached about this who gave up their life because as religious authorities, even though they were male, they had an opportunity, or they had a seat reserved for them in the lifeboats as it was sinking.
All three denied it. All three. Father Thomas, Father Joseph, and Father Joseph. Varying ages, 42, 41, 27. They gave up their seats for other people and remained on the boat as it sank, praying for the people left there.
I'm assuming given their last rites. I would love to hear what their final words were. Tell you what, I cannot vouch for their theology, but let me tell you right now, their faith, that was Christ-like.
I will see these people in heaven. I am so sure of it. Because to give up your life, no matter what denomination or what kind of section of Christianity you are, these people proved their faith by sacrifice.
And so, again, I can never say that Catholics or Joseph's Witness will never make it, because the thief on the cross made it. And he had very little theology. You can tell by just the situation he was in and the crimes he committed leading up to that, that I'm sure that he wasn't in Torah school learning to be a rabbi.
So, he saw Jesus. He saw him crucified, and he said, I put my trust in you. That's it. And the Holy Spirit will do the rest. Separate salvation from sanctification.
Two different things. So, that's my piece. What a good way to end. No, that was good. I loved that. I learned a lot today. Because I would think there are certain denominations, like you said, that have different theologies than we do.
And I'm like, I don't know. Probably not going to. Like, to be honest, Catholicism was a big one because of the saints, and then purgatory and confession and all this stuff. And I'm like, oh, man, I just don't understand.
I've heard pastors say, you know, there are going to be some Catholics in heaven. I'm like, I just don't. I can't understand that because of what I know what Scripture says and what they practice. It's different.
And so, I learned a lot from having you all come in here. And I want to thank you all for taking the time to come on here. Thank you for having us. It was a pleasure. My pleasure. And if you guys like this episode, you know, share however you want to.
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Deuces. What'd you do? What'd you do? I just waved. I'm old.
