Which Denominations Go To Heaven? (Special Guests Pastor John & Pastor Christian) | S6 E4

Denominations, Cults, and the Question of Heaven

Welcome back to the Point Taken Podcast. We're glad you could join us today with us in our mini pockets. Today, if you've seen by the title, we are going to be talking about if different denominations of the Christian faith can all go to heaven.

So today on my right, your left, we have Pastor Christian Torres. He's our, I'm about to say, are you or Pastor Jeremiah our youngest? Is Jeremiah younger? He's the youngest. Okay. So our second youngest pastor on staff here.

And then over to my left, your right, we have Pastor John Franklin.

And he's one of the older guys. The oldest? Nope. The second oldest. Really? Okay. Pastor.

Jeff is older than me. By how much? Like a couple of years? About three years. Okay. But he's still older. He's still older. So this conversation kind of came about when, you know, you learn about different cults and different faiths and stuff and like Jehovah's Witnesses or, you know, people who practice Scientology, like all of those cult type religions, you know, as a Christian, that they are not going to heaven.

But what about different Christian denominations like Methodists and Lutherans or Catholics, like whatever it is? We know that sometimes what we have in scripture doesn't line up like with the Catholic Bible.

They have a couple of other books in their Bible, and then other denominations interpret scripture differently. And so how do we know what the right denomination is? If there is one, I know the answer, but, you know, just posing the question for the episode.

Pentecost, the Jerusalem Council, and the First Church Split

So we wanted to start about Pentecost, right? The main picture.

Of where we came to be with the denomination. Well, actually, and I didn't say this before, but we need to back up a little bit more. When Jesus ascended into heaven, that's when He established His church.

When He said, I'm going to prepare a place for you, He told us to be His witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea, and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth. That's when He established His church here. Man in our infinite wisdom has messed it up and divided it up and just sparsed it out so much that there truly is only one true church.

And I don't think any, I personally don't believe any specific denomination has it 100 correct. I just think the Baptists have it more correct than the other denominations. But then like I said, at Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit came down on the church and anointed the church, that's when we truly saw it go from the 12 out to everybody.

And I know you were talking about earlier before the podcast that separation, the first church split, right, of the circumcision party and uncircumcision party. Which way do you go? Is there works involved or is there not works involved?

And each split down the line from that point forward is ultimately, in my belief, do we do more works or do we have more faith? That's what each split really came down to.

For a long time. So yeah, the first church split, you could say, was the Jerusalem Council, Acts chapter 15. You know, starting in verse 1, when some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, quote, unless you are circumcised according to the customs of Moses, you cannot be saved.

And after this was a huge big old party. All the apostles, everyone met up in Jerusalem to have a discussion. Now, a little side trail here. I loved that the apostles respected James' authority in the Jerusalem church.

James was the pastor and so the apostles, they didn't impose their will. They spoke their peace but allowed James his authority to make the final call on what needed to happen. So it's really cool that the apostles, that sort of highest level of church leadership, respected area leadership.

Right, the local authority. The local authority. Of course, that will come in handy when we start talking about specifics concerning denominations. In terms of denominations, I think it's kind of important to go over the three main types of church governments.

Because at the end of the day, the majority of denominations, it's basically a difference in how they structure their leadership. So for Catholics, mainly Episcopalianism is what they adhere to. It's the rule of the church by monarchial bishops.

It's like a pyramid. You start with, I guess you can say God. Human wise, you get the Pope. This could be anybody. You have one main authority.

Yes. Mormon church is set up like this where they have the prophet and Methodist churches are set up like this. The Catholic church is set up like this. There are quite a few that are set up with that hierarchical form of government.

Not laughingly and jokingly about it, but it is a lot like a pyramid. It's a pyramid scheme. It's a pyramid scheme. You have one person making all the decisions. Whatever they say goes. A lot of cults are going to be set up like this.

Oh, yes. 100%. Because you have that one person that has all the power and all the authority. And all of the.

Revelations. Well, that's how you maintain power. If you keep the secret small only to one person or.

Group of people, that is how you make money. Right. Because you have to rely on me now in order to... Right. No, I'm not going to rely on any man for my salvation. No, of course not. That's what this.

Says for sure. Right. And then the crazy part about this type of church government is that the leaders of the people are chosen for them. The people have no say in their leadership.

It's appointed from someone higher. The top down. Top down. Everything comes from top down. Well,.

In the case for Catholicism with the Pope, who chooses? Because I know there's a process,.

I just can't... Right. So if the current Pope was to pass away... There's no vice Pope. Right. The Council of Cardinals will convene and they'll cloister themselves and sequester themselves until they get enough votes to have a new Pope.

Put somebody into office, if you will. I think.

This election, I saw a video on it, this election of how to elect a new Pope is extremely complex.

Yeah. And almost political. There's very much political involved in it, yeah. How many cardinals are in that council? I don't know. Off the top of my head right now. I'd have to look it.

Up. To get the approval of all those people that high up, you need to be really high up. And I don't.

Think it has to be 100%. I think it has to be a majority. Again, I'm not a Catholic. I don't know all the ins and outs of choosing the Pope. But when you think about it, they believe the Pope is infallible when he's sitting in St. Peter's chair.

I heard it's 21. Well, at least.

They said he names 21 cardinals. Actually... New cardinals. Not to go off on a tangent on that.

Piece, but the Pope's recent comment about blessing gay marriage... Oh, the union? You want to call it marriage? He calls it a union? Yes. So he's not acknowledging that it's a marriage. He's acknowledging that it's a union, and he wants the Church to bless it.

There's a lot of Catholics worldwide that are saying, no. See, here's the line. He crossed it. And so they're questioning.

This bit of infallibility of... Well, logically, if you look back through history, I would struggle because not all Popes have agreed. So just because you're sitting in it does not make me infallible.

I mean, look at the Crusades. The Popes were condoning that from St. Peter's chair. That obviously was not infallible. St. Peter's chair. He is rolling over his grave right now with that sort of nonsense.

St. Peter's chair. Anyway... But that's one of the three forms of government.

Yes, that is one of the main forms, since Catholicism is currently the number one version of Christianity in the world right now. I'll skip number two. We'll come back to that. Presbyterianism. So this is basically what the first one was, except there is no one single person.

It's the council. It's ruled by committee. It's ruled by committee. So for a regular Presbyterian Church who adheres to this form of government, it's the people elect the pastors.

To make the decisions. It has to be a group of elders, not necessarily all pastors. That is true. So it could be people that have been in the church for an extended period of time. People that are knowledgeable in wisdom, but not necessarily a pastor.

So it's a committee of those people. So is it kind of like a non-denominational? No, they'd all be of the same denomination. But Presbyterian Church is a prime example, if that's right, Presbyter. But the local church will say, okay, we're going to hire the pastor, but the pastor may not even be part of the elder board.

The pastor may just be subject to the elder board. That's a good distinction. The elder board are the ones who are making all the decisions. So think about literally the church is being led by committee, and that committee has all of the power, all of the.

Authority. And to be fair, if I'm being completely honest, this form of church government is most efficient. Because you don't have to wait for a congregation to make a vote. You lower down the amount of people in the decision-making process, so it's more efficient.

It's more.

Dangerous, but it's still more efficient. Because it'd be really easy to get Pastor Christian in there and, oh, well, we have an opening. Let me put my buddy Jeremiah on here. And next thing you know, the whole council is taken over by people that all support his.

So in essence, you end up with another hierarchical form. It just looks like a committee's doing it. It's kind of like a.

Political party. You have like ideas within the same party for the most part. Not every opinion is agreed upon, but most likely the ideas are similar. You're absolutely right. Are we, as far as our.

American government, are we a Presbyterian or a congregational type government? Does my vote really... I vote for someone to make the decisions. Does that really matter.

Because of the electoral system, the electoral college? It really is more Presbyterian because.

We elect officials to make decisions for ourselves that we didn't make. Right. So, you know... Politics. No, it's during the... When I was studying the separation of church and state, the church has influenced the government since our very founding.

It's the way we're designed. I mean, the Bible was open. That's why it resembles like a church government. But you know how that goes. Right. Up and down. Last one. Congregationalism. That's what we are.

Right. Every person has equal vote. My vote is equal to anyone else's in the church. Right. That.

Power, that authority comes from the local body. No other Baptist church can come in here at Whitten and tell us how to do what to do. In a hierarchical form, you have the bishop telling the local churches what to do.

In a presbyter form, you have the presbyter telling the bodies what to do. And with the congregational form, all that power and authority, it's not in the pastors. The pastors have been elected and hired by the congregation to lead in the direction, but they serve at the pleasure of those that they lead.

Right. I know many a time, I've said it from the pulpit, I've heard other pastors here say it from the pulpit, that you can fire me for what I'm going to say. I'm going to tell you what the truth is, though, to paraphrase what we're saying.

I'm going to tell you what Scripture says. If you don't like it, you have the authority to fire me. So that's where the authority is coming from, the body of Christ,.

Not from me. But we also have a committee, like a co-op committee or something like that. And so those are the ones who kind of decide if we get like a really big donation of some sort. And the co-op committee is like, okay, these are what the accountants look like.

This is what needs to be fixed in the area. These are what we think could be done. And then we put it in front of the church.

To vote on it. So yes, our co-op committee functions more as a fact-finding committee. And they go out and they find the details. We know there's major repairs need to be done. Hey, we have this large, let's bring it to the body.

This is what we'd like to do. The body can say no. They go out when we need a new contract for something. They're the ones who go get the quote rather than trying to bring all the 20 quotes, narrow it down to three and bring it.

Rather than bring the body 20, they narrow it down to the top three. The congregation then has the authority to say this. And they always have the conversation at the business meeting, members meeting, that puts that authority back into that congregation.

Doctrine, Theology, and Whether Different Denominations Can Be Saved

When we're talking about denominations, the biggest difference isn't really theology or doctrine. It's form of government. Each denomination, I guess, for example, we know Baptist. That's such a broad term.

We have so many. Over 200 forms just in America. Over 200 forms. Of just Baptist? Yes.

I didn't know that of just Baptist. We have independent Baptist, missionary Baptist, Southern Baptist. Those are the only three that I'm familiar with down here.

I'm actually wondering, do other Baptist churches in our area have a co-op committee? How do they.

Make their decisions? From other churches I've been in. Some of them have multiple committees and some of them end up being like a presbyter form. They call them a committee rather than a.

Presbyter. Yeah, it's just like you put a mask on it. Does this determine whether you're saved or.

Not? No. But it does go into your theology and your doctrine.

This will 100 affect your theology.

I mean, when you look at the problems that came up in the church, they dealt with it on a congregational level. The Corinthian. When Paul said, look, you have this man who is sleeping with his father's wife.

You're letting him be in the congregation. This is what I would do, but you're in charge. You do what you think is right. He had authority of the apostleship, but you guys are in charge of this. Matthew 18 talks about corrections in the church.

The final authority isn't the pastor, it's that congregation. Correct. Bring it to the church. Yeah, right.

I got three points here. Here's what we know from Scripture. There's obviously more, but these are the three that I found interesting. Which one of these is right? Which one of these is wrong? Is there one that's more sinful?

Is there one that's more righteous than the other? Here's what we know so far. The office bearers in the church are nominated and elected by the members of the congregation, i .e. Acts 6 .5 -6, but must also be examined, confirmed, and ordained by the present board of elders.

So the people elect, but the pastors are the ones that go... Final stamp. Final stamp. And you can find proof of this in Acts 6 .6 and verse 13 and in 1 Timothy 4 .14. So I love that checks and balances.

The people can, hey, we want this one, but ultimately the pastors who have to put their hands on and go, okay, this one.

Right. So the people say, yes, we think. The pastor is the one who tests them. The deacon, those are the ones that are high and have that authority in the church from knowledge, not from authority based off of power.

That makes sense? Yes. So you have that authority based off knowledge because they're the ones who are teaching Scripture. So are these people up to the level where they can teach? Do they fit the qualifications?

And then again, it's going back to that congregation because that congregation is the one that actually is ordaining them.

Right. So cool. All right. Next point is each congregation and center of leadership is to have a plurality of elders. Acts chapter 14, verse 23. I believe that's PHIL. I forgot. Is that Philemon or Philippians?

Philemon. Is it Philemon? I thought so. Philemon 1 .1, not a one man rule. I've been to so many churches where it is just a singular pastor. But when we look at Scripture, it's always a plurality of elders working together, not just one on his own.

I couldn't imagine doing this on my own.

I think you are talking about Philippians.

Was it Philippians? How would you abbreviate Philemon?

I wouldn't. You don't actually have a Bible in front of me. When I'm actually writing out my note, I do write out the whole. If I'm not copying and pasting from a computer program, I write out the whole thing.

Oh, let me work. Let me work. Let me work. I think it is. He's like, now I have to. Yes. Here we go. That's what I was looking at. Yeah. Yes. Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus to all the saints in Christ Jesus, who are at Philippi with the overseers and deacons.

Multiple. Overseers is also down here, bishops, or in Greek, episkopoi, which leads me to my next topic. There is no distinction between elders and bishops in Scripture.

Right. It's the same office. Elder, bishop, pastor, all of them are the same office. Bishop, Christian. I think I like that. No.

Bishop. Too wordy. No. You're a pastor. Yeah, right. So back to the question, can different denominations go to heaven?

Well, I would say, let's go back to what Jesus said. I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. So your first question is, is it a denomination that is following Jesus Christ?

If not, then automatically either Jesus was lying there and is not God, or Jesus was telling the truth, and you have to go through Jesus. So that automatically knocks out any denomination that does not follow Jesus as the Messiah, which knocks out a bunch of religions in the world, not to mention denominations.

Galatians, if anybody that teaches another gospel, let them be an anathema to you. So anybody who is teaching something outside of what Jesus taught, I see that as being opposed, and those people that are truly following that are following a religion and not Jesus, I would struggle to say they would not be in heaven.

So let's take a specific, like Methodists, for example. They have female ministers. They condone same-sex unions. I'll say unions because it's not a marriage, like the Pope said, because he even recognizes it's not.

So what would you say to a practicing Methodist Christian who believes in that, I guess? That's a two-part question. Because could they really be saved and then have opinions like that?

Well, I'd like to split that question up into the idea of female pastors. Go for it.

Doctrine Versus Theology, and the Role of the Holy Spirit in Sanctification

Well, before we even get there, let's break this down. Again, it comes down to those two words that we teach a lot here, doctrine and theology. You have to understand what those two things are. So first, a doctrine.

What is a doctrine? That's a teaching. It is a truth that we find in Scripture, and you're going to find it from Genesis all the way to Revelation. It's in Scripture. God wrote Scripture, so it cannot be wrong, right?

So doctrines cannot be wrong. The doctrine of grace, we see that with Abraham. We see that with Adam. We see that with Paul. We see that all the way through Scripture, we see the doctrine of grace, right?

Theology is man's study of God. Men can be wrong. We can err on theology, end times theology. There's multiple different studies of what the end times are going to look like. There's a doctrine that says Jesus is coming back.

So as long as a church is following that doctrine, then they are okay. The theology can be wrong. Pastor Josiah, who's on the podcast most Sundays, he and I have different theologies on the end times, but our doctrine is in agreement.

So we don't have to necessarily agree on every point of theology to make it to heaven, because Jesus is the way to heaven.

1. I think, too, that's where a lot of people get hung up on is if they have a differing opinion about Scripture, like you said, the end times, it's like, okay, is the 1 ,000-year reign a literal 1 ,000 years, or is it just metaphorical?

Is it just like an extended amount of time that feels like 1 ,000 years, if you will? So a lot of people might think that same-sex attraction is a theology versus a doctrine. It's like, no, it's wrong all through Scripture.

It's not a theology where it's like, oh, that's a man's interpretation of whatever, and then it's wrong. So I feel like.

That's where a lot of people get hung up on stuff. Dr. Darrell Bock Right. So can a different denomination be in heaven? Yes. I believe there are going to be Catholics in heaven, because they truly believe that Jesus is the way Jesus died for their sins.

Some of their theology is skewed. Methodists, same thing. Multiple denominations, we can say the same thing about. All these 200 different variations of Baptism, yes.

I just had no idea there were that many. I was like, I knew of like three.

Dr. Darrell Bock It's insane. So to answer that particular question, and let me be extremely clear when I say this. I think that you can have a female pastor believe in gay marriage and still make it to heaven.

I believe that that is a massive theology issue, but I think you can have faith, a very infantile amount of faith in Christ, and initially believe these things, and the Holy Spirit later comes and starts chipping away at those things.

But to look at someone and go, yeah, they support these two things. They obviously can't be saved. It's a very dangerous thing.

Dr. Kinnard. Well, and too, I've used this example before, if it hasn't been aired on the podcast, it will be now, with the topic of abortion. I mean, I've been a Christian for years, and I only thought that abortion was all the way wrong.

A handful of years ago, but I was a believer. And I'm just like, well, you know, that's not for me. If someone else wants to do it, that's their decision. I'm not going to say whether that's right or wrong for them, but I would just never do that.

And then several years later, I'm just like, oh my gosh, no, it's wrong all the way around. But that doesn't make me any less of a Christian. God just opened my eyes to see, no, this is murder. And so I like what you said, because it's like, even though your church has female pastors, or you think gay marriage is fine, even though it says in Scripture, it's not.

It's like, God will use the Holy Spirit to speak to you through Scripture, and open your eyes, and remove the veil from your heart, and really change you. So I think that was a good point.

Now, the problem arises when you resist the Holy Spirit. When there is obvious rebellion to the Scripture. It's like, hey, let's talk. Let's have a conversation. That's...

Like the cherry picking that we do.

Right. The cherry picking. And like you said, that specific resistance. Scripture says this. I'm going to refuse to believe what Scripture says.

But you know what aggravates that? Christians who point the finger. Oh, you're going to hell because you believe this. Have you tried having a decent conversation with them? Have you tried sitting down and getting a cup of coffee?

We don't know what that is. And just talking with them. Hey, I don't want to offend you, but this is what Scripture says. And I know that means that everything you've known is a lie. I know that means that your community is based on a lie.

So we're asking these people to deny so much. So we need to be considerate of, yeah, this is the truth, but I'm going to give it to you gently. They don't need to be rebuked unless they obviously show resistance, and you are a member of that church.

Yeah, and it calls for that.

Correct. Well, and there are actually two women at our church that were able to sit down and have a conversation about abortion, and one of them was totally okay with it, and then the other one wasn't, and they were able to have a civil conversation, and the other person ended up changing her mind for the abortion no longer being okay.

And so it's like you reach more people with being sensitive, understanding, caring, empathetic. Think about how you would want to have a conversation happen with you. Your opinion's not going to be changed if someone yells at you and tells you that you're an idiot.

It's like you're going to hunker down even more on your opinion and be like, okay, well, I'm not talking to them, and you just shut down. You have to be willing to have those conversations with people, and it's like, look, I'm telling you this because I love you, but Scripture says this, and you're doing this, and this is wrong.

It can never come to the point that this is my opinion. This is what Scripture says. You brought up homosexuality earlier. Yes, I believe homosexuality is a sin, but that sin is no worse than my sin. That's correct.

If Dalton was sitting there looking at Lowell in a lustful way

I mean, Lowell has a pretty nice beard, Dalton.

Then that is a sin, but it'd be no worse than me looking at a woman in lust. It's the exact same sin. It's just, do we act on it? Do we succumb to it? Do we deny ourselves and follow Him?

Which one do we do? I feel like that's where a lot of churches fail is that they're like, instead of I'm just paraphrasing instead of having all of our members struggle with this, let's just okay it.

Exactly. And we're just going to approve it because this is the culture now, and this is the way it is, and we need more females in the church doing the things and preaching from the pulpit, and I'm not okay with that.

But just talking about even the gay marriage, it's like, oh, if this would make our members happy. It's just what's in the culture.

This is what society said. Well, the Word of God never changes.

Right. So you're changing God's Word to fit what culture says today that is going to continue to.

Change even though God's Word never changes. God never changes. God himself, he's immutable. He never changes. Correct. So he's not going to change his mind just because society decides to.

Our feelings. I feel that we should do this. I feel like that's like being a good parent. You know, like the rules are the rules. Like my son's been doing stuff, and he starts one, I'm like, them's the rules.

I'm like, I don't know what to tell you. And it's like you don't change on that because they feel a certain way about it. Like there was an instance just this last week, I ended up having to text my accountability group about it because I was really struggling.

I'm like, this kid is driving me nuts. I want to make sure I'm doing the right thing. And I felt like I was being too hard on him for what we were doing. And I remember one of the women in my group was like, well, does he know he's disobeying?

I said, oh, yes, like he knows. And she goes, no, you're fine. I was like, but I feel that I was being too hard on him. And that made me want to let up on the discipline that I was providing our son. But I'm like, no.

And I told him, I said, I feel this way, and I know what the truth is, but I'm still struggling with feeling a certain way. But it's like, but it doesn't change the discipline. It doesn't change the punishment.

It doesn't change what happened. Like, them's the rules. And so with Scripture, like Pastor John said, is Scripture is always the same. It does not change based on our culture because the culture changes minute by minute.

Yeah. Every 10 years. There's a new gender. There's.

A new gender every day. Well, 2010s, the culture now says your feelings are more important than the facts. Right. What are facts? No one can even say. My feelings change 12 times in the first hour that I wake up.

That is true. True. You get on the interstate to drive to work. If I haven't gotten my coffee yet, it's probably going to be even more than that. I know. But I can't base my life on feelings. Right. I have to base it on facts.

And that's what I like about, well,.

I love about Scripture is that it doesn't change, and it tells us what is right and what is wrong, just plain and simple. So we know better. But like you said, with people's theology, they take this and they construe it to fit their narrative of whatever it is.

And that's.

Where you have the problem. So I belonged to a non-denominational church. That's the trendy thing now. Y 'all ever heard of interdenominational? No. Okay, good. I'm not gay. I don't even know what it is.

Interdenominational. I feel like it's multiple denominations in one house. It sounds like. Either way, I belonged to a non-denominational church, and this was a satellite type church, meaning that every Sunday, a pastor from a particular location, the main pastor, the almost like apostle pastor, would preach and we would broadcast it the same way, what's that big church, Life Church?

Yeah. The same way they do. I remember this one Sunday, his topic was homosexuality. And I'm thinking, what is this man about to say? And he said, you know, I want to believe that homosexuality is okay.

Me, as an individual, I believe it is okay. But I've researched and I've read scripture, and I've read and I studied and I meditated. And although every fiber of my being wants to agree with this, scripture does not.

And so I am forced to leave behind my personal feelings, simply because the Word of God says so. I see no damage. You love whoever you love. It doesn't affect me in the slightest. But simply because the Word of God says so, I have to believe it.

Right. That is, that's a perfect example of what we need to do is, of course, on the list of sins, I would probably put, you know, murder and other sins that I'm not going to mention up here and then homosexuality down here, as far as like danger to society.

But it's just a mentality of, I acknowledge my feelings, I acknowledge my bias, but the scriptures say this, and they haven't changed. And so I have to believe in this.

Yeah. It was very comforting. But therein lies part of the problem, though, Christian. A lot of the people that are going to church, and that's part of the problem, they're going to church, they're not part of the church, right?

Yes. A lot of these people aren't studying on their own. They're just being fed. They sit down on a Sunday morning, they never open the Bible Monday through Saturday. They sit down for an hour in church on Sunday, listen to a man get up and speak, that may or may not be even telling them the truth, right?

And they don't have a way to fact check it, or they choose not to fact check. They choose not to, because they're being told what they want to hear. So many of these denominations are being led by people that are leading them straight to hell.

It's like we were studying this morning in Matthew 23, when Jesus is talking to the Pharisees, woe to you, you brood of vipers, woe to you. You search the world for a proselytite, but when you find them, you make them twice as fit for hell, because you're teaching them false doctrines.

You're teaching them false theology. You're teaching them all these things that are taking them away from Jesus. You're making them twice as fit for hell. That should be a terrifying.

Thing for people. Will y 'all ever hear when Pastor Steve taught Sunday nights? First of all, one of the most phenomenal teachers that I know. I took so many notes, and when I came to this church, I was converted in a Pentecostal church, but I was reformed here.

Fantastic. Two of them I could see you as a Pentecostal. Oh man, I love Pentecostal churches. I love so He still has a little of that in him. Yeah, I was about to say, that's how I could see it.

But two most important steps in my Christian faith, obviously, is my conversion, feeling the Holy Spirit for the first time, and then my Reformation. Understanding doctrine and reading it through and through and going, oh, so this connects to this, and it's not just like a random assortment of books.

It actually has a connection. Anyway, so Pastor Steve, there was one time where he taught a lesson completely built on a lie. He would say some really crazy stuff, and nobody would rebuke him. They would just sit there and go, uh-huh, uh-huh.

I don't know what it is, but towards the end, he goes, guys, I've been lying this entire time, saying contrary, biblically inaccurate things, and no one stopped me. I was like, oh man, I probably was there.

He did that to a Sunday school when he was teaching Sunday school as well, and when he got finished, he told them, I lied to you at least five times today. I want you to tell me what they were next Sunday.

Oh my gosh. But that is, it's a failing on the person because we're not taking the time to study to show ourselves approved, right?

Because there have been some things that have been said from the pulpit, and I'm just kind of sitting there, and I'm like, I don't think that's right. Personally, I don't think that's right. That's not how I had interpreted this said scripture, and so I'm like, and the pastor's preaching on it, and I'm reading from it, and I'm like, okay, no, that makes sense, but I'm fact-checking him during the sermon, and I'm just like, okay, making sure that that...