Presentation on Mormonism

So for those of you who have survived this long, thank you very much. We now completely change gears once again and This is gonna be a little bit faster than I like to do it, to be perfectly honest with you.

Last time I did this was for a Ratio Christi group in Pachasum, South Africa a few weeks ago, and I told everybody beforehand,

I said, hey if we're gonna do something on Mormonism Invite the Mormon missionaries to come. Contact the local mission and tell them you're gonna have something on Mormonism They will send people.

They did. They sent four missionaries and so we had four missionaries that we got to sit there and do this presentation for and they stuck around afterwards, talked to people, it was great and so This is a subject that I have been dealing with for many many many many many years

Everybody figured my first book would be on Mormonism because that was the first group that I really dealt with in depth Starting six months after my marriage, so it's been three and a half decades now and It wasn't the first book, but I have written two books on Mormonism, Letters to a

Mormon Elder and Is the Mormon My Brother? I'm gonna be talking about Orthodox Mormonism today.

Mormonism is changing Its theology has not yet changed, but the emphasis is changing and Certainly the knowledge of the average

Mormon person to whom you're speaking has radically changed radically changed

Things that I used to carry on a huge notebook to document to Mormons today Are now being published by the

LDS Church You encounter more and more Mormons today that will admit that Joseph Smith not only had as many as married to 48 women and Had a seer stone

I mean man for years we were telling people about how the earliest stories of the Translation of the Book of Mormon was

Joseph Smith put a seer stone into a hat and covered his face with it and and so on So I can't believe that he had the

Urim and Thummim. Last year the church published a Picture of the seer stone they've had all along in their archives

I mean it has changed a lot since the early 1980s when I started studying this this faith and The problem is there are so many topics on Mormonism.

There's so when I compare Mormonism to Jehovah's Witnesses Dealing with Mormonism is this broad broad broad spectrum of topics, but you only have to know them this deeply

Dealing with Jehovah's Witnesses is this narrow range of subjects and you have to know it really deeply

So they're sort of the opposite of each other in that way But what can be so confusing about Mormonism when

I first started saying I had no one to guide me and So, you know, I'm reading all these books and I'm first I'm reading

Christian books and I start realizing what I need to do is read Mormon books to know what Mormons actually believe and I For a while as I ought to never remember all this

I'll just never be able to put all this together but it helped to start talking with Mormons and start

Figuring out what the real central issues were So if any of you and any any Star Trek geeks in here

All right. Good. All right. I Watched Some of you are young.

I watched the original when it was first airing. Okay on a barely color television and That was back.

I remember I remember Gilligan's Island the first year when it was black and white Yeah, so anyways

He's really old he's done pretty well today for being so old and I hope that his

I hope his denture cream holds because it'd be really gross if his dentures fell out while he's talking so anyway

If you've ever watched Star Trek one of the big problems is why is it whenever you run into aliens?

They speak English, you know, that's Gotta admit. That's a little bit of a problem.

And so They got around that was something called the universal translator and the idea is built into the viewing screen

You have this universal translator that somehow Allows the yeah allows you to communicate.

It's sort of like Google Translate on steroids or something like that up in space and so I Call the graphic.

I'm going to show you a little bit later on the the universal translator between Christian ease and Mormon ease because what normally happens when you witness to Mormons is

You think you're getting someplace and you think you've got a fair amount in common and then about an hour into the conversation

They hang a left and leave you standing there completely alone wondering what in the world happened And the reality is you guys have been saying completely different things all along.

You just didn't know it you're using the same words, but you're using a different dictionary and So if you can know ahead of time what the

Mormons actually believe then you can do the translation and not waste an hour and It also helps you to centralize know what the center core of Mormon theology is and also to prioritize because the fact matter is you can spend a lot of time

Looking at a lot of different subjects that won't get you anywhere If you find yourself arguing polygamy with Mormons about Joseph Smith, you're probably wasting your time

You have to have goals and you need to stick with the important stuff, so let's start with the important stuff in 1992 which was not all that long ago

At least for people like me The the church published a book called achieving a celestial marriage student manual

So if you want to get married in the temple not one of these You know ward chapels or stake centers you might have around here, but an actual temple.

Is there a temple in South Dakota now? I'm sorry Omaha okay,

Omaha has one now. They went on a huge temple building binge starting late 90s and for a long time

Mormons would have to travel a long long way to get these big major temples Like if you lived in northern Mexico you had to go to Mesa, Arizona to go to the

Mormon temple say on this big temple building binge smaller temples, but temple building binge and If you want to be married in the temple sealed for time and eternity in the what's called celestial marriage

Then you have to do it in temple. You can't do that in a ward chapel or anything else like that and so before you do that you got to go through classes and So this was the manual that you and your wife would have to study before you get married in the temple between 1992 and 2001 so for about nine years

This was the manual that was used in all of those classes So this is copyright corporation the president of the

Church Jesus Christ Latter -day Saints, so this is the presidency These are the the leaders of the

LDS Church Writing to Mormons. This is Mormons writing. These are the Mormon leaders writing to the

Mormon people You can't get much more official than this all right now on pages 4 through 5.

This isn't buried in an appendix someplace This is the start. This is the foundation God was that once a man who by obedience advanced to his present state of perfection

Through obedience and celestial marriage we may progress to the point where we become like God So immediately you have

God was once a man who by obedience Advanced to his present state of perfection

That's the first statement Proclaiming the divine potential within man John Taylor once wrote

Knowest thou not that thou art a spark of deity struck from the fire of his eternal blaze and brought forth in the midst of everlasting burnings

Elder BH Roberts stated man has descended from God. In fact, he is the same race as the gods

His descent has not been from a lower form of life But from the highest form of life in other words man is in the most literal sense a child of God This is not only true of the spirit of man, but of his body also

Can you see the implications of these two statements as they relate to you and to your eternal destiny elder

James E Talmadge did he declared in his mortal condition man is God in embryo however, any individual now a mortal being may attain the rank and sanctity of Godship How is this possible?

What course of action will bring this potential to fruition as you say this lesson look for the answers these questions that realize this is

Laying the theological foundation for marriage in the Mormon thought Okay, so you're talking about who man is who

God is and man is of the same species as God is what you're being told points to ponder

God became God by obedience to law God became

God by obedience to law It was late afternoon as we sat in my office, but I felt the time would well spent

He sat silently now obviously contemplating the ramifications of the things we had been discussing We had talked of God of how he had become

God and of what that meant in terms of his own exalt of our own exaltation finally he spoke and so now we're gonna have a conversation between a younger

Mormon and an older Mormon and the younger Mormon I've put into yellow italics and the older Mormon is in plain script

What is this law of exaltation of which you keep speaking? Well, it involves the whole of the gospel law

Everything required of us by God is associated with this law. But the major crowning point of the law which man must obey is eternal marriage

Therein lies the keys of eternal life or as the Doctrine and Covenants puts it eternal lives Now there's the first place.

I just stopped to go. This is why we need to recognize the language barrier You and I have one conception of what eternal life means when the

Mormon hears you say eternal life they translate it in their minds to eternal lives and And that is the result of a man being sealed to his wives for time and eternity so that after death and resurrection

You can have spirit children and repopulate a planet That's not what we think about we think of eternal life

But that's what the Mormon thinks about in other words an eternal increase of posterity and You thought that you were an empty -nester

Ha ha ha Then what you're saying is that God became God by obedience to the gospel program which culminates in eternal marriage gospel program is

A law program that culminates in eternal marriage Through obedience to law we can become like our

Father in heaven. Yes Do you realize the implications this doctrine as far as you are concerned? I think so if God became

God by obedience to all the gospel law With the crowning point being the celestial law of marriage then that's the only way

I can become a god Right, and it is the law that assists us in reaching that potential It tells us what we must do to gain the ultimate freedom

In fact, it is a by obedience to law that we have progressed to our present position You mean we have always been governed by law?

Listen to this next short paragraph. I think it's one of the most important in all of the Thousands of pages of LDS literature

I've ever read Always You are an eternal being you were never created and you cannot be destroyed

But you can advance progress and develop by obedience That is one of the most fundamental denials the

Christian understanding of God and man have ever read Let me tell you something now and I will confirm it through the rest of this presentation

Islam is considerably closer to Christianity than Mormonism ever could be

Islam's monotheistic. So are we? Mormonism is the most polytheistic religion man has ever imagined because Mormonism believes there's an infinite number of gods

And there you have it. You're an eternal being You were never created you cannot be destroyed But you can advance progress and develop by obedience then

Hamlet's question to be or not to be is not the question I don't know where that came from. But obviously I wrote this was a frustrating English student from BYU Right, not in the ultimate sense

Order means law and that law is the law of the celestial kingdom any who come under this kingdom must obey that law

But I thought godhood meant freedom if I have to do things to become God am I really free? You've got it wrong

It was the Savior who said if you continue my word that is obey the law There's good exegesis for you.

You shall know the truth and truth shall make you free So by obedience to law we learn truths by which to become free but not free from the law.

Can you see that? I think so. I can only be a god if I act like God Exactly, right.

Can you imagine listen to this? This is this is Mormons talking to Mormons Can you imagine the state of the universe if imperfect gods were allowed to spawn their imperfections throughout space if?

Beings who did not have law under their subjection were free to create worlds You're not reading science fiction here folks.

This is LDS theology. I But I'm not sure I see why celestial marriage becomes the crowning apex this progression marriage doesn't seem directly to the creation of the what?

universe says Plural they'll believe in one universe. There are unlimited number of universes.

That's how you can have an unlimited number of gods. Oh But don't be limited by your mortal perspective.

God himself has declared his own reasons for existing Remember he said for this is my work and my glory

I see his purpose is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man,

Moses 139 LDS scripture actually says God's reason for existing is man

That makes sense because God is an exalted man Mormonism is the most man -centered religion ever designed.

There is no true God There is no true God if the God of this the God this planet was once a man who lived on a planet just like you and I fall in State just like you redeem sinner like you and I which involves giving birth to spirit children and setting them on the road to exaltation if that has to be done you must have an exalted man and an

Exalted woman exactly an exalted man and woman who have been joined together in an eternal marriage If this man and woman were obedient to all gospel laws except celestial marriage, what would be the result?

They still could not be gods now. I understand celestial marriage is the crowning ordinance of the gospel, right? I said with a smile with that comment.

I think we can end the discussion Mormon leadership talking to the

Mormon people right before his death if Joseph Smith had not been murdered in June of 1844 there would be no

Mormonism today if he had been allowed to live another two years There would be no Mormonism today. His beliefs were changing so fast that no one could ever make heads or tails out

Of what he's supposed to be saying but because he was murdered improperly in the

Carthage jail in June of 1844 You have Mormonism today because martyrs produce religions and A month before his death.

He preached a funeral sermon for King Follett He had been crushed in a he was digging a well and a tub of rock fell on him and crushed him

And here's some of the things that Joseph Smith said in order to understand the subject of the dead for the Consolation of those who mourn for the lost their friends.

It is necessary We should understand the character and being of God and how he came to be so For I'm going to tell you how

God came to be God We have imagined supposed that God was God from all eternity

I will refute that idea and take away the veil so that you may see you need to understand as long as Mormonism continues to follow

Joseph Smith Mormonism can never be considered a Christian religion because of that statement

We have imagined supposed that God was God from all eternity Yeah That's what God said in Psalm 90 verse 2 before the mountains are brought forth or ever thou form the earth and world even from Everlasting to everlasting thou art

God. I Will refute that idea and take away the veil so that you may see these are incomprehensible ideas to some but they are simple

It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another and That he was once a man like us.

Yay that God himself the father of us all Dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did and I will show it from the

Bible Here then is eternal life to know the only wise and true God sir heard that one somewhere recently and you have got to learn

How to be gods yourselves and to be kings and priests to God the same as all gods have done before you namely

By going from one small degree to another and from a small capacity to a great one from grace to grace from exaltation exaltation and so you attain the resurrection of the dead and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings and to sit in glory as those

As do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power These are quotations from the

King Follett funeral discourse. This is not LDS scripture However, I have found that the

King Follett funeral discourse has been cited more often by the leaders of the Mormon Church than any other thing

Joseph Smith ever said and That makes it as nigh unto official LDS doctrine as you could possibly have anything now.

Here is what I call the Universal translator. This is not an amway presentation. You're not going to be asked to sign up to a sell any soap afterwards

It does look a little bit like it. I realize that but An amway products are just fine. By the way, that's

I'm not making fun of anybody. I've just been there done that got the LOC so anyhow

Here's the universal translator this sort of ties together the central aspects of The Mormon faith and by the way as tired as I am

I am sure at some point I'm gonna say the Muslim faith because Mormon and Muslim sound really a lot alike.

So Just forgive me. I'm only talking about Mormonism from now on and if I say anything else just ignore it

So it starts up here in the corner, and so I'll zoom into here Here are the two eternal things in Mormonism intelligences and matter intelligences and matter

So what you have here is now necessarily some Mormons aren't so sure about the intelligences part, but many of them have

Specifically presented this in the past that we all existed as intelligences God existed as an intelligence all angels existed intelligences.

We were all the same type of thing It's basically what makes you you the core essence of your personality

Has eternally existed where it came from we don't know There there's there are severe philosophical problems in in Mormonism and matter is eternal

In Mormonism God cannot create matter. There's no such thing as crash UX and Hilo. God cannot create matter. He cannot say let there be

God can only Organize pre -existing matter. He cannot bring matter into existence. It is eternal now out of that realm comes spirit children

You're gonna have to sort of hold on Because when you look back at the big one here, here's spirit children up here.

Here's spiritual down there. There's the same thing It's sort of a cycle and it'll take you a little while to figure out how we get to spirit children

But the reality is in Mormonism before anyone has a physical existence because our existence here on this planet there are billions of other planets in the universe's with physical mortal beings like you and I and the same process is being gone through on each one of them and Everyone who has a physical existence on those planets a mortal what's called the mortal probation

Before that had a spiritual birth were born to a celestial parents a a man with a body of flesh and bone no blood and one of his many wives and The man the wife have carnal knowledge of each other, but for some reason

Even though she has a nine -month pregnancy She gives birth to a spirit child, even though she has a body of flesh and bone

I don't know how that works either. But anyway, and so you're born as a spirit, baby

You have spirit diapers. You have spirit doo -doo You drink spirit milk

You grow you have spirit fingernails and spirit hair and and it's it's an entire parallel because spirit is just refined matter in Mormon understanding and So you grow as a spirit child and you go to spirit school and you play spirit sports and and and the whole nine

Yards in a spiritual pre -existence. Okay, so that's where the spirit children are.

We'll talk a little bit more about that later on so from the Spirit children realm there is a line that goes over here.

We'll talk about that later on If we have time from the spirit realm, we enter into the mortal probation.

That's where we are right now our life right now From our life right now.

There's two ways of getting out this arrow here, which goes up to paradise or This arrow here that goes down to spirit prison

This is the Mormon way and the Mormon way is marked by an A and a

B and Hence you have right here the A and the B defined as A is what's called the four fundamentals of the gospel the four fundamentals of the gospel faith repentance

Baptism and Laying out of hands. Those are the four fundamentals gospel In other words, those the four absolutely minimal things that have to take place you enter into paradise, but they're not enough but they're the minimum

There needs to be more beyond that for different levels of glory and things like that. But those the minimum Then the

B is continued obedience to gospel rules and principles Which we would call works righteousness And so this is the mark of the when the

Mormon dies They have had faith. They've repented. They've been baptized by the proper priesthood authority

It has hands laid upon the head for the receipt of the Holy Ghost by proper priesthood authority And so they go to paradise but the vast majority of human beings because there's only about 15 million

Mormons in the world and even the Mormons will admit that a majority of their people

Are not actively involved in the temple and things like that that the vast majority of the human family leaves the moral probation and goes to the spirit prison and In this night, you got to give the

Mormons their props They are a missionary people if you've ever gone to one of their temples, you'll find an older couple giving the giving the the tour and Many of those older couples served missions when they were kids and now that they're retired or something

They're doing another mission for the church and in Mormonism You don't stop doing missions even when you die because what happens is

Mormons from up here in paradise come down to the spirit prison. That's not this line here That's apostate Mormons, but real

Mormons up here come down to the spirit prison. They preach the gospel to the spirits who are in prison So if you're a spirit who is in prison and You hear the gospel in prison and you go

I like that as a spirit you can have faith as a spirit you can repent but it's very difficult to baptize a spirit by immersion and It's impossible to lay hands upon the head of a spirit.

It just goes through like Casper, you know it just doesn't doesn't work well and So how then can you get from the spirit prison up to paradise?

Well Baptism for the dead If you sit outside of I guess we were told the

Omaha Temple it's closest one you can get to if you're to sit outside the Omaha Temple during the weekdays and Sort of watch with binoculars.

You'll eventually be arrested by the police, but if before the police come you will be able to see people walking in and they'll have these little little bags with them and they are their temple garments and They are going in to do ordinances for the dead if you use myfamily .com

genealogy .com Ancestry .com all of them.

They're all Mormon the Mormons own everybody's Ancestry databases they bought them long long time ago.

There's nothing you do about if you want to do any genealogical research the Mormons have got you and the reason is that they believe that it's their responsibility to study their ancestry and to provide for their ancestors who in the spirit prison a mean of get it means of getting out and getting to Celestial glory the old teaching under Joseph Smith was that you could get no farther than your ancestors did like a train they've had to drop that because the reality is you can only go back so far no matter how good you are and so they that really isn't an emphasis, but the emphasis is still upon the idea of saving the dead and So the living do ordinances for the dead and so they're going in and they will be baptized for the dead

Let me look real quick here just a second and see where I have this

Oh Did I take it out? Oh, wait a minute. Ha ha ha ha. I skipped it.

Don't skip slide. There we go Alright, here we go Now years and years ago when

I first started saying Mormonism Someone had someone who would come to understand that Mormonism was not true

Had taken back when we first developed those little micro cassette recorders they had taken that and they would strap it to the leg and had gone through the temple ceremonies with that hidden multiple times because the tape it only lasts so long and Had finally had recorded all the temple ceremonies.

So I remember listening to them for the first time well since then now you've got little spy cams and so since then they have now been videotaped and you can actually go on YouTube and Watch the the temple ceremonies on online

But this baptism of the dead is fascinating up until the Atlanta Temple in every temple that had been built the baptismal font was always underground and It's built on the back of 12 oxen

The statues of 12 oxen because that's what it was in Solomon's Temple and So I remember

I got to go through I've got I've gone through two temples their dedication period one was in Manhattan Manhattan and I think

Singapore somewhere in the east are the only two that are not freestanding buildings Because they're in major cities where there's no freestanding building

There's no place to build a freestanding building. So you have to buy space in a building to do it But when

I went to the Manhattan Temple We went into the baptismal area and there's there's the 12 oxen and as we walked around the top

I noticed the network cabling holes in the floor Because they hadn't installed the computers yet but what happens is you have to get into the temple you have to get what's called temple recommend and Some some bishops

To get your temple recommend Will actually require you to bring your w -2s So so he can check your giving records and make sure that you tithe on the gross and not the net

And it can be pretty strict But you have to be you know in good standing with the church and not using tobacco or caffeine

Things like that you get your temple recommend you go in and For the baptism for the dead you present your names.

They are entered into a computer and So when you go in to be baptized The names will come up on a computer screen and so you'll have a guy who's the recorder

He'll read the names off and then there's the guy an elder down in the in the baptistry Who is baptizing and on average you'll be baptized 50 times per session

So what you're gonna see here is that happening from a secret cam from just a few years ago, so Let's take a quick look at it

Jesus Christ Pretty well, isn't it and Then you leave there and you go into another room where you kneel down and you have elders and you have the same names and These elders are now they're wearing their temple garments, which are interesting to look at themselves

And they lay hands upon your head sister Johnston in the name of same names to receive the

Holy Ghost Lift the hands put it back down For each one of those people checking off all those people

Because what are the four fundamentals of the faith faith repentance baptism laying on of hands? So you've got to do the baptism laying on of hands

And so now if you did that behalf of everybody who's in the spirit prison as long as they have faith repentance They can now get out and go into the into paradise and receive celestial glory

So you're saving the dead. So there's Baptism of the dead so those who accept this now if you're in a spirit prison

There's people who can go in and out and they're telling you how to do this why you wouldn't accept this. I don't know But only a certain number of people do who end up going to paradise the rest at the at Resurrection these are only places they can go

To these different levels of glory over here, but to get into the highest level of glory you have to go through the

Mormon temple ceremonies and things like that, so Let's go up this top point here at the resurrection this green lines resurrection.

Okay, this line crosses out So you're resurrected you go into this celestial kingdom, but there are different levels in the celestial kingdom

If you were married for time and eternity in the celestial marriage ceremony Then you bring your wives with you and it's really it's really interesting

It's not gonna be long before polygamy is legal in the United States. You realize that Obergefell Ended any meaningful definition of marriage in the

United States. And so Unless something changes and Obergefell is overturned

Utah will have polygamy and the Mormon Church does not want it In that funny

Mormon Church doesn't want it. They don't what to do with it But they're gonna be stuck with it and I think it's gonna result in a major split personally.

That's my that's my little prediction, but You you can be sealed to many women even after you're done.

You're dead Joseph Smith's been sealed of hundreds of them You take your wives Highest level of glory you organize a planet

You engage in relationships with your wives you have spirit children Once you've got enough spirit children you you organize another planet you put your

Adam and Eve on it You start putting spirit children in it. You start the whole thing already except now you're God. You're God the father and You will be worshipped by your offspring and you start the process all over again

They go through it create more gods create more gods create more guys. That's why there's an unlimited number of gods in the universe

It's an it's it's an exponentially increasing number Okay But not everyone is sealed in the temple not all

Mormons are vast vast majority Mormons are If you're not sealed in the temple, then your marriage does not last death and you become if you're a guy anyways an angel

So Noah is actually Gabriel who knew and by the way,

Noah built the Ark in North Carolina and Flowed over to Ararat and according to Joseph Smith the

Garden of Eden Was in Missouri These the st.

Louis Cardinals always knew that but nobody else did so So there you go. So there's a celestial level and it's considered to be the the glory of the

Sun well, then What about the rest of us well at resurrection

Those that go the terrestrial and celestial levels of glory. They are resurrected see it crosses that green line right here

And so they go to The terrestrial or the celestial the terrestrial is the glory of the moon that celestial is the glory of the stars

The word Joseph Smith get all that he got for first Corinthians chapter 15. There's a glory of the Sun There's glory the moon there was always stars, but then

Paul said there's a glory Celestial and a glory terrestrial

Which he just meant by heavenly and earthly and in fact heavenly and earthly is how it's translated in John by the

King James So Joseph Smith looks at and he goes Sun Moon stars terrestrial celestial

Something's missing Hmm, there should be a third level of glory because there's Sun Moon stars

So what he did is he took the first letters of terrestrial slapped him on the last letter celestial came up with a new word

Noah's ever heard before called celestial and that's the level of stars and Joseph Smith said that if you were to For a moment experience the glory of the celestial kingdom you'd immediately commit suicide to get there

That's how glorious it is. So can you imagine what the celestial glory is like? Wow? It's just awesome to see and if you look at the

Mormon Temple in Salt Lake City You'll notice that the upper stones up here are called

Sun stones And then in the middle you've got the moon in its different phases and then down here at the bottom

You have the star stones. So you've got three different levels of heaven in the actual architecture of the

Salt Lake Temple It's been a while since I've seen that but you see it.

Absolutely all the time now, you'll notice that down here is hell and We haven't explained this in a line right here

These are apostate Mormons if you have a testimony of the Holy Ghost and Mormonism is true that you deny it then you don't go to paradise you go to spirit prison and Those are the ones who go from the spirit prison into hell if it crosses line of resurrection

That means you get your physical body back Over here is Satan and the demons and they were spirit children of God the

Father who rebelled and were cast out of heaven They do not cross the green line and so sort of the consolation prize of having at least been a

Mormon for a while Is since you got farther in the process and you got a physical body you will rule and reign over Satan the demons in hell

But they're the only ones to go to hell over here Hitler Mussolini Stalin The worst the worst still get celestial level of glory.

I've had many a Mormon pat me on the back and say You'll make the terrestrial kingdom. You'll make the terrestrial kingdom.

You'll be fine. You'll be fine. You'll make the terrestrial kingdom So so you're judged by your works you get your body back, but you're damned

You're damned ah, it's that language thing again damned up you can no longer progress any farther

You get your body back, but you're you've basically been neutered so you can't have children

Because the power of God in Mormonism is the power of the priesthood and procreation Okay, so apply this to our planet

God the Father is named Elohim Elohim is a man from another planet He was in a fallen state like you and I he was redeemed went through the process of Eternal marriage ceremony to his many wives.

He was exalted He lives on a star that circles He lives on a planet that circles a star named

Kolob This according the book of Abraham in the LDS scriptures the LDS have four books of scripture

King James Verse the Bible Book of Mormon. Dr. Covenants Pearl great price. This is in the pearl great price and he lives on a planet search little star named

Kolob and That's we were all born as spirit children and then when he have enough spirit children, then he organized earth and Create Adam and Eve and Put the first souls in them and we all lived in this spiritual pre -existence before now you may ask why don't we remember them?

Well other than Shirley McLean, why don't remember the spiritual pre -existence? and There's really no official answer for that other than so we can live faithfully and be tested into mortal probation the old

Mormon woman's Idea back in the 1800s was that since you grow to be about six foot tall in the spiritual pre -existence when you scram a six -foot

Tall spirit person into a little baby. They lose their memory. That was the idea of amongst Mormon women back then

Of course, they were polygamous and they had 40 kids So, how could you not come up with an idea like that? So that was if I had that many kids wouldn't you start thinking strange things?

I certainly would so anyway so God's firstborn spirit child

Onkolob is Jesus who is Jehovah One of his other early sons is called

Lucifer So Jesus and Lucifer are spirit brothers as we are with Jesus and Lucifer Well, all of us are spirit brothers or serious sisters with Jesus and Lucifer.

What happens is when it's time for To create earth or to organize earth not create earth

Jesus presents Elohim's plan which is Freewill you'll all have a choice whether you become gods or not but Lucifer, of course is a

Calvinist and So Lucifer is gonna force everyone to become a god and so a votes taken and the

Calvinist lose and They get cast out become Satan the demons There are a bunch of spirits that don't fight as valiantly against Lucifer and the demons and their curse to be born of the black skin

Until June 8th 1978 when Mormonism forgot all about that or tried to even though the documentation is still very clear that that was the theology and Brigham Young even preached a sermon which said that the day the priest was

Given to blacks the day the church goes into apostasy That was June 8th 1978, but the vast majority of Mormons have no earthly idea of any of that any longer

That's just simply the way that it is Now you're looking at me like no way.

I They're all through the military They do civil engineering. There's they're intelligent people.

Yes spiritual insight is not a function of intelligence and You can be extremely intelligent and believe utterly foolish things

But please do not do not think that Mormons don't have their apologists.

They do I Like to write we had time I'd roleplay a Mormon and bring some of you up here

I'd bring Aaron up here because he deserves it is I'd bring

Aaron up here and I'd roleplay a Mormon with him and I'm undefeated Really? Yeah they they've got their stuff and If you want to see

I did a dialogue last was last summer the summer before last I think it may have been last summer may have been less than a year ago with Alma Allred up at the

University of Utah and Alma Sharp Don't don't walk out of here going.

That's the dumbest thing ever heard. There's no one. I'm gonna go save all the Mormons Yeah, good luck They have their apologists.

They have their argumentation. It's normally way way way out there. But just just trust me. Okay It is wild and it does remind me of Isaiah 29 16

You turn things upside down as if the Potter were thought to be like the clay So what his form say to him who formed it?

He did not make me can the pot say of the Potter? He knows nothing. Well, yeah real quickly sharing with Latter -day

Saints Then we'll take the questions we had before any of the questions you have try to wrap up as fast as possible Sharing with Latter -day

Saints be patient Leaving Mormonism is not like being a Lutheran and becoming a Methodist or something like that.

It is very frequently a cultural thing And it very frequently takes a lot of time to get someone to really consider the claims of Christ Be aware of the language barrier

I've only given you a few examples, but there are many of them for a Mormon Everybody's saved

But only they will be exalted. There's difference between salvation and exaltation exaltation to Godhood Three be sensitive the individuals experience of belief

This has become more important because Mormonism is changing and I'm I'm encountering Mormons now that are willing to admit that 90 % of the criticisms

I made of Mormonism the 1980s are true Yeah, yeah Joseph Smith has it. Well, did any of you see the

Video that a Paul Gia Posted what about three days ago of me witnessing to the young Mormon guy

Yeah Check it out online. It was just last week. I think that we did this You know this young Mormons guys going.

Yeah. Yeah, Joseph Smith did that. Mm -hmm. Yeah, he did that too I I'm not sure really how we explain that and it that just didn't happen in the 80s

It just it just didn't happen. You've really got to be aware of where they're coming from these days

Focus upon the central truths of faith There's only one God who can save Jesus Christ our creator the all -sufficient

Savior and salvation is God's gracious gift Who is God who is Christ? What is the gospel? Those are your goals in talking to the

Mormon people now you may have to Take some detours. You may have to talk about the Book of Mormon. Dr. Covett's false prophecies first vision.

There's just so many things in in Mormonism But those are the goals you want to be focused upon not anything else

Be prepared to share why you accept the Bible is the perfect authoritative Word of God because the a third faith the Mormon Church says we believe the

Bible to be the Word of God as far as it is translated correctly which means a Myriad of different things to different Mormons for most

Mormons. It's that the Bible's been changed. It's been corrupted And so they will the first of the first people that ever through alleged contradiction of the

Bible me were Mormons That's where it all started for me avoid side issues that lead to blind alleys

Like polygamy and things like that If pre -existing belief in Joseph Smith and the LDS Church stands in the way make sure you can back up any

Statements you make when dealing with Smith of the church so in other words you know the Godmakers film came out everybody watched the

Godmakers and Went off and started witnessing the Mormons and when the Mormons say where do we say that? Well, I saw it in a film made by ex -members of your church.

Oh, yeah, that's kind of a lot of weight, isn't it? I Mean think about it. Someone comes up to you.

You're sitting out a park bench You're reading the Bible some guy comes up to you and says that a Bible. Yeah, you're Christian. Yeah, it's just all a cult

It was all made up. Oh, really? I've ever read the Bible. No, I haven't but I saw a movie by a satanist about it

Yeah, I've got a lot of credibility in my eyes, how about you? Well, we can't expect the Mormon to give us credibility.

If all you know, I saw a movie by ex -members of your church You're a cult That's great.

I might want to be able to back up any statements you make when dealing with Smith of church Don't get into of your head utilize support systems

I've just seen too many people get on their their white horses go off to save the Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses End up as Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses not a good thing

Share positive challenging Christian literature. I remember I remember once I sent all already once the holiness of God by RC Sproul RC did not write that book for Mormons, but I thought hey, you know what it talks about the true

God You know and finally live the Christian life not just in being kind and compassionate

But in living a holy godly life not because you have to because you love God and wish to bring him glory

You're a walking contradiction to the Mormon teaching that they are the only true church one other last thing just for the fun of it and then we'll take the questions and wrap things up because I'm If you don't mind

I'm getting tired I've been I was standing a lot last night. I don't know if you notice that anyways.

Oh, sorry about the Hi, mr. Video, man. I'm so sorry. I moved over here How many of you remember

Battlestar Galactica Yeah, not the new one the original like 1978 in fact

Didn't Apollo just die. I think the actor played Apollo just died like in the past six months or something like that. It's like I Can't be that old

Anyway, but I remember I remember Watching Battlestar Galactica and one of my my uncle who had fought in the

Pacific in World War two Was watching this episode with me And he started quoting the

Bible to the TV. I Thought he was nuts. He wasn't nuts

If you remember by the Battlestar Galactica, who are they led by? Adama and who is

Adama Adama was the leader of the Council of the twelve And they're the head of the humans his son's name

Apollo and What are they doing? They're searching for the human homeworld.

What was it called? Cobalt ko bol and in one of the episodes

They are some of them are captured by these glowing humanoid things and everything's white and glowy and At one point these humanoid things say to them as You are we once were and as we are you may become

Which was that was the episode that I was watching with my uncle when we started quoting the Bible to them and He evidently knew something.

I didn't know Because every one of the writers of the original Battlestar Galactica were returned

LDS missionaries Every single one of them you go back now watch it. It is soaked in Mormonism.

You watch the marriage ceremonies it's the eternal marriage ceremony and Lorenzo snow fifth prophet of Mormon Church as man is

God once was as God is man may become Becomes a line in Battlestar Galactica, and that's what my grant.

That's what my uncle saw He didn't know anything about Mormonism, but he knew it was wrong And started quoting the Bible to fascinating fascinating so Mormons have their their impact they have their

They have their place and so there you go all right real quick questions. Let's let's get to them Dropping trash on the floor

Go ahead You know I don't know since the doctrines,

I believe that the doctrines of the beliefs of Christian a Christos not published so Yeah, yeah, well, it's published.

We just can't get hold of book. Oh, okay, well You know I was just kind of I was just kind of disappointing the fact that like you know the basis of the debate was about the

Trinity and You guys kind of only talked about like the Son and the Father, but not really about the

Holy Spirit so I was just wondering like I was just wondering about the other side like what they actually believe about the

Holy Spirit. I have no earthly idea. Yeah Obviously we can

You have anything dad Yeah, that's probably why

I didn't bring it up if they had if they had a positive doctrine They would probably use it as an argument, but I don't think they know yeah, so But for me the

Argument that I was making is if you see the New Testament Differentiating between the three divine persons and identifying each as one being

Yahweh there you have the Trinity So that's that's why I focused upon that not upon anything else

Thanks Alright so in the debate last night 1st

Corinthians 11 3 came up, and they had a translation I think was from the Simplified English Bible Or something like that and they were quoting and it said that I cannot keep track of the translations

They were using that's no one that's been possible. It's almost like they were cherry -picking of course no no no no okay?

But anyway, it said that God was over the Sun and then man was over the woman well I looked at you know the

Greek text and the word is Kefli Which would be the head and so that could be translated a number of different ways but that does have some relation to the

Way that the Sun relates to the father, and I know at least from my understanding you are not an eternal economic subordination is

So I was just wondering How do you understand the word Kefli to be used in that sentence?

and what does it mean for the father to be the head of the Sun in relation to how man is the head of a woman

What I mentioned very briefly to him was that what is the

What is the term used for the Sun here ha Christos, so we're talking about incarnate. We're talking about Messiah ship

We're talking about incarnation. We're talking about the position that the Sun has taken in redemption and so The the order here has to do with Christ as the incarnate one and his role in redemption this head doesn't have to do with it within the

Trinity itself and so You can assume and some subordination is to do assume that this this order goes back

Farther than that. I think that's one of the one of the problems I have with the with the Grudem Ware argumentation is

I think it's going the wrong direction You don't go from the human to the divine you go from the vine to the human and you cannot assume that because something exists in the relationship between Christ and his incarnate redemptive state and humanity that that goes backwards into this relationship with the father.

So here you have Christ very clearly as the terms being used here.

And so the order is one is a redemptive order It's a order within creation It's not referring us back to anything that happens in eternity or before creation itself, right?

And how does that relate to then how a man is the head of a woman? well

Because just the same way that God Determined that Christ would be the one who in whom all things would be summed up in the same way

He's established male and female relationships from the beginning as Jesus himself taught in Matthew chapter 19

So those male and female relationships are determined by God and the way he created the well Not only the way he created man and woman, but the way he created marriage and the marriage relationship and and everything related to it

So that's what I was referring to in regards to his trying to say. This is an ontological statement.

It's not ontological statement It's an order created order statement Thank you for your presentation on Mormonism I've watched it before but I have not encountered enough

Mormons to want to Delve into it more, but I've always wanted to ask what exactly are universes to them.

How do they function when I hear? What exactly or what our universes are multiple universes because when

I hear about, you know, God's going to their own planets I almost think that's just a synonym for universe the way I hear it get used.

Yeah You're looking for consistency there and and there's there's the problem There are there are huge holes because you got you got to understand

Like I said If Joseph Smith had not been killed in 1844 if he'd been just given a number at number a couple of years to keep coming up With the wilder and wilder stuff.

No one would be able to put it together And so even as it is none of that stuff that I was telling you about it's in the Book of Mormon None of it is it's on the

Doctrine and Covenants not and Pearl Gray Price is not found the Book of Mormon. So Originally, it's pretty clear that Joseph Smith's idea was this was all within this universe

But as Mormonism once he was once he died then there was change and evolution Especially once they got to Utah where they're just all alone echo chamber time

And in that context that's where you start getting this development of universes instead of just Planets within the universe see they end up existing side -by -side.

They don't really make sense together But it's because it's a human system that's developed over time and it's self -contradictory Thank you.

Welcome All right, dr. White. I have two questions My daughter if my if my granddaughter looked at you she would say your hair fell off your head under your chin

I've gotten that one before. She said that she said that to me That what Clementine would say she says to me.

So yeah, yeah, my dad always said it migrates So yeah, it's my great. Yeah, well all good men come out on top. Yeah, exactly

So whenever I said whenever I my dad said that I always said to him and grass and grass doesn't grow on a busy street

And I said or through cement. So My mom said that first comment grass doesn't grow to the street. Yeah, I got two questions.

Actually, that's okay We'll take one at a time. Hopefully, I don't know but um all depends on Aaron cuz he's walking down here He looks mean so, okay, you know, he may well, we'll see how long the first one takes

So there is that reference in the New Testament to the baptism for the dead leaves in 1st Corinthians 15 29

How do you work with that? Quickly, you know with Mormons who were citing that saying oh this baptism for the dead is in the

Bible I know it's kind of a weird passage. Well, they definitely use it. That is their whole basis for it.

The problem is That to be baptized for the dead you have to have I didn't go through this

I did really Simplify the Mormon presentation. I apologize just simply amount of time you have to hold the

Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthoods and The best way to approach the

Mormon issue that topic is the priesthood because the Bible is so plain on What the priesthood really is who the

Melchizedek priest is all the rest that kind of stuff That's the best way to go. We have a tract called What was it called well, we have a tract on the subject of priesthood

I think we have it in PDF format on the on the on the web, too That really helps you to go that direction but in dealing with 1st

Corinthians 15 29 What is being said there is there's nothing in the New Testament about people having a priesthood restoring priesthoods temples

No one was getting baptized in temples or any of that kind of stuff at that particular point in time instead

It says what shall they do else? What should I do that are baptized to the dead of the dead rise not at all why are they then baptized for the dead and notice when

I first When I first studied that I saw an interpretation it says what shall they do and it made reference to a group called the

Corinthians who in the early church were a group that did baptize for the dead and it was referring to this his heretical group

Well, I I don't think Paul would make reference to some outside group along those lines instead

I think there's a simpler understanding and that is when it talks about baptism of the dead. It's not baptism in Behalf proxy baptism in a temple which

Christians ever built using a priesthood which Christians ever claimed To accomplish something Christians ever taught in the place of the dead

It's the fact that as people would die people would be baptized into their place in the church

And so why would we replace why will we continue to baptize people into a church where they're being martyred for their faith?

If the dead rise not at all So remember the context first means is 15 is an apologetic for resurrection.

It's against those who are denying the resurrection So I say why do we continue doing this and bringing people into the church taking the place of those who have died if there's

No resurrection Did you have a second one real quick? Oh, I can go to the back of the lines my extra other questions more of like one about your career

Who's the would you say the the toughest or you know, sharpest apologists you faced and what's the most difficult?

Non -christian faith to debate against that you found in your career people always ask me that question

I really don't have any good answers because every debate is different and and the context of each one is very very different You know,

I would imagine this debate. I have next month with Peter D Williams seems to be a really sharp guy Hey, they catch the unbelievable radio broadcast.

I linked to it There I just linked to it. It just came out. Did you hear it? I was pretty good discussion, wasn't it?

He's a he's a bright guy Yeah, it was a really good conversation I think it's one of the best conversations ever had at the

Roman Catholic if you don't know what I'm talking about There's a radio program called unbelievable on premier radio in London when

I was in London I don't know month month and a half ago. I lose track anymore. You'll be there in a few weeks again so it's sort of confusing but I did two unbelievable radio broadcast one with use of Ismael on the resurrection actually the crucifixion of Jesus and then

Peter D Williams and I discussed whether the Reformation was a tragic mistake or a necessity and It was one of the best conversations.

I've been on unbelievable I don't know 14 15 times now and I was one of the best conversations we had. So he's gonna be a challenge

See you can have people every time I debated Jerry Maddix is a complete challenge because he would just Stretch all the rules of debate all the time and debating him is like dodging someone who's throwing knives at you all the time you just So there are people are just like that Robertson genesis really tough to debate for the same type of reason

But those are debate reasons their personality reasons So You know

I've done debates with with I did a debate with a Muslim The Muslims were complaining about the guy

So those are really hard because you're you're still trying to accomplish something positive even though the other side just isn't even there in the debate

So it's really hard to answer that question because there's so many different factors Who's a good debate opponent is it good because they really know their stuff and they're good at communicating or because they're really good at Bending the rules and and making it really hard for you to make your points.

So that's that's a really tough question to answer Yes, yes,

I see you're sitting there and that means we only got two more left so Considering that not all

Mormons believe in Mormonism, but they stay in Yeah, there's a lot of nominal

Mormonism yes When we're sharing the gospel well, you've got to remember if You have to try to find out by talking to them how deeply influenced they've been by Mormonism It's if it's all they've ever known there.

They may not know all that stuff real well But they're still going to translate most of what you say Into a foreign context that you may not want to be trying to communicate to them so no matter what you have to build the bridges and you have to be very careful to define your terms and and Recognize that that pretty much what they're thinking of is a works righteousness system

And and if they've if they've got any level of exposure to Mormonism Look the

God we just described is not a sufficient source for the grace of the Christian faith So, you know any redeemed sinner from another planet?

That's a problem. So it does add some level of Effort on our part to make sure that we can clarify

But at the same time if you don't have to bring up Mormonism if it doesn't come up don't bring it up Don't you know don't drag stuff in Don't don't

Make it all that more difficult in the process. So You have to find out how much they've been influenced by it as to how that's gonna twist your words and just make sure to Be very clear in your presentation

All right. Thank you. Thank you I suppose for the last question I was wondering you talked a lot and showed a lot of the reliability of the

New Testament everything But I was wondering if you could show us a little bit of the reliability of the Old Testament my understanding is

That the church here actually had a presentation on that about what? The I don't see the pastor any longer, but I had eight million dollars worth of Old Testament manuscripts here

I don't know six months ago or something like that About a year. Okay, so you've had something like that No discussing

Old Testament reliability is a completely different subject because you're talking about a much more ancient text and a very different transmission methodology because the

Old Testament is primarily covenantal doc documents given to a specific people and So instead of what you have with the

New Testament where the gospel goes to all the world the Old Testament scriptures are primarily for Jewish people the people that are gonna produce the

Messiah and So the method by and then it gets really complicated because you've got the

Hebrew Masoretic text you got Greek Septuagint You got the Targums you got the Peshitta. You've got all sorts of stuff like that And different translations over time and things like that.

So it becomes extremely Let's put this way. I don't know any I certainly could not make it nearly as interesting as the

New Testament presentation can be it's not that there's not good information on it, it's just extremely complicated and Really hard it would take much longer

Because you have to define so much stuff and it's it's a real challenge. It's real challenge. All right.

All right giggles. Here you go Keep it going.