February 13, 2025 Show with Justin Peters on “Steven Lawson: A Biblical Evaluation” PLUS “Paula White: A Biblical Evaluation”

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

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Jim Thorpe. It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 13th day of February 2025.

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I'm thrilled to have a returning guest on the program who I've interviewed many times.

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I always love interviewing this dear brother who has become a dear friend over the years, who

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I've had the privilege of having speak at one of my Iron Sharpens Iron Radio pastors luncheons a number of years ago.

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I look forward to him returning to do that at some point in the future. And today we are going to be addressing two subjects that gives us no pleasure to discuss, sadly.

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The first topic we are going to be addressing is an evaluation of Stephen Lawson.

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Stephen Lawson, who has become a world -renowned, globally beloved figure and hero to many, who fell into scandalous sin and is basically in hiding, avoiding public scrutiny, avoiding the evaluation of Christian brethren all over the world.

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He has not made any public statement asking for forgiveness from all of the thousands of people who trusted him, purchased his books, attended conferences because he was on the platform, and those

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Christian leaders who appointed him to positions of authority in their organizations, not a peep publicly of asking forgiveness, of confessing his repentance, and that troubles us deeply.

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One of the reasons we feel compelled to address this issue is because if we, who have a platform for apologetics ministry, as Iron Sharpens Iron Radio frequently provides to apologists such as Justin Peters, if we go after people and expose them and offer public critiques and exposés over individuals that are outside of our own theological camp, we obviously cannot show favoritism, or it's not right for us to show favoritism and avoid addressing individuals within our own theological camp that have caused great harm to many countless individuals and has brought reproach upon the name of Christ and his church, and so we'll be dealing with that in the first hour, regrettably.

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And another thing that we're not thrilled about addressing is the arch heretic

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Paul White, who has been appointed by President Trump to lead an office called the

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White House Faith Office, and it baffles my mind, and I'm sure it baffles

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Justin Peters' mind, that of all the thousands of people that have somehow become connected with President Trump, that there weren't more people of sound mind and biblically orthodox convictions who did not swarm around the president to warn him about this appointment or about this person,

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Paul White, who is a seriously dangerous heretic. But first of all, let me welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, my dear friend

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Justin Peters. Chris, it's a joy to be back with you, brother, and it truly is.

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It's been too long, and excuse me, I'm sorry, I've been kind of hard to bend down with my schedule, but it's a joy to be back with you, although I echo your sentiment, wish it was under happier circumstances.

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Yes, before we delve into that, I want to make mention of one of my favorite conferences, the

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G3 Conference. This September, they have switched back to the national conference.

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They are now alternating between national conferences, which are the larger ones in Atlanta, Georgia, and regional conferences every other year that are smaller and take place at various cities all over the

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United States, changing each year. But this September 11th through the 13th in Atlanta, Georgia, the

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National G3 Conference is on the theme of faith, and they've got 20 speakers at this conference.

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They always have a huge and impressive lineup, but some of the men to highlight are my guest

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Justin Peters, of course, my dear friend for many years, Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, Paul Washer, Dr.

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Joel Beakey, who's also been a friend of mine dating back to the early 1990s. I was actually the first person to get

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Dr. Beakey exposed on the radio, to have his sermons aired on the radio.

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One of my favorite preachers on the planet Earth, Dr. Hensworth Jonas, who

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I just recently arranged a Bible conference in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania with Hensworth.

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We have Virgil Walker of G3 Ministries on the lineup.

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Kosti Hinn, the nephew of Benny Hinn, another arch heretic. Kosti has renounced his former heretical views and also renounced his uncle as a false teacher.

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He's one of the speakers. Daryl Bernard Harrison, a good friend of mine, Tom Buck, another very good friend of mine, and many more.

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Do you have any idea what you're going to be speaking on at this early stage in the game,

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Justin? I don't, Chris. I know the general theme of the conference is faith, so I imagine

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I will be teaching on faith in some capacity. My guess is probably maybe the distorted view of faith that false teachers have and contrast that with the biblical understanding of faith, some iteration of that,

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I would imagine. But I haven't actually been officially assigned my topic yet, so that still awaits to come into my inbox.

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Well, I'm sure you'll do a great job. For more information on this conference and to register for it, go to g3men .org,

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g3men .org. And as I said already, this conference is taking place this

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September, the 11th through the 13th, in Atlanta, Georgia.

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And is there anything coming up in the more near future that you'd like to address as far as special events where you are speaking?

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Well, I've got a number of events coming up. I'll be at a couple of different churches in California in May.

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I'll be in Kentucky in April. I'll be somewhere in March.

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I don't remember, but people can go to my website, justinpeters .org, and see my calendar.

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But I will be all over the country this year, by God's grace, and several international engagements as well and international trips.

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So far, Chris, I think right now I'm scheduled to be in Poland, in Austria in June.

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And then later in the year, I'll be in New Zealand, American Samoa, and Fiji, I believe.

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Oh, and by the way, probably within 24 hours,

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I'll have an entirely new website. So you're the first person to hear about that. So it should be live, hopefully, within the next

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Earth's rotation, I think it should be live. Well, great. Go to justinpeters .org

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to check that out, at least by tomorrow or the next day, and you'll see that new website. Okay.

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Well, you have spoken, I don't know how many times, but you have certainly spoken on the same platform or speaking roster with Stephen Lawson at conferences.

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I know that you've been on the same roster at the G3 conference. G3 ministries had him regularly preach at their conferences.

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I don't even know if I've ever been to a G3 conference where he wasn't on the roster. I may be misremembering that.

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But Stephen Lawson has been praised as one of the most gifted exegetes of the

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Scripture alive today. Certainly is a gifted preacher, not only homiletically, but hermeneutically.

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And I have frequently enjoyed and been blessed by and edified by and challenged by Stephen Lawson's messages.

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And he tragically got involved in an inappropriate relationship with a woman decades his junior, and he is a married man.

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And I think that Brother Justin will agree with me that although this adultery, this betrayal of his marriage is a very egregious and heartbreaking and disturbing thing,

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I for one am more grieved by his response to being caught in this sin and offering no public expression of repentance and request for forgiveness and no submission to church leaders for church discipline.

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But anyway, I'm going to let you pick up. I'm going to let you say anything more that you care to say about Stephen Lawson and then address the issues that we face in regard to his ministry, which has had an enormous impact on the body of Christ, especially in our circles commonly known as Reformed circles,

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Calvinistic circles, sovereign grace circles, etc. But you can continue from here on.

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Okay. Yeah, Chris, this is the worst thing that I've ever seen in our theological circles.

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You know, in the charismatic movement, this kind of stuff happens all the time. You know, the Word of Faith and AR, it's really to be expected.

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And nobody cares that people aren't being disciplined. No, no, nobody cares.

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Nobody cares. I mean, in that movement, if a man or a woman, because they have just as many female preachers as they do men, that's a whole other issue.

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But in their movement, when a preacher does something like this, they may come out of the preaching saddle for a couple of months, maybe, and then they're right back in it because they always get, quote unquote, restored.

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But in our movement, that's not the case. If you do something like this in our, not movement, but in our theological circles, in the soteriologically

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Reformed high view of God's sovereignty and salvation, you do this in our circles, and you're done.

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You'll never be behind the pulpit again. That is if you remain in our circles, because there have been

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Reformed pastors and preachers and evangelists and authors and so on who have committed egregious, scandalous sin that has become public, who, when they want to avoid church discipline from their colleagues, their own elders, their brethren in Christ of the same theology they have at times, just fled to people that they would at one time called theological enemies or at least opponents and have aligned themselves with those folks because they're given an open door.

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Yeah, that's exactly right. And Mark Driscoll would be a good example of that because he, once upon a time, was in our theological orbits, at least for the most part.

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Yeah, D .A. Carsey even co -authored a book with him. Yeah, that's correct.

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That's correct. And he had accolades from some notable names within our circles, sadly so.

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And then he did all kinds of stuff to get himself disqualified and even kicked out of the

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Acts 29 network and all that kind of stuff. And so he just changed his theology.

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He just became a charismatic Arminian, and he was welcomed with open arms.

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And so now he's pastoring again, and he shouldn't be. He's unqualified, as John MacArthur has famously said about him.

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But in our circles, that's not the case. We draw a hard line on those issues, and rightly so, because of a pastor,

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Christian elder. We are held to higher standards. James 3 .1

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says, Let not many of you desire to become teachers, my brethren, knowing that we will incur a stricter judgment.

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So we are held to a higher standard. An elder, a pastor, is to be above reproach.

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That's one of the qualifications for being in ministry. You're supposed to be above reproach.

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And Steve Lawson is no longer above reproach. He has committed adultery.

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Proverbs 6 .32,

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The one who commits adultery with a woman is lacking a heart of wisdom. He who would destroy his soul does it.

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And then verse 33, Wounds and disgrace he will find, and his reproach will not be blotted out.

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Now that is not to be missed. His reproach will not be blotted out.

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This is not to say that someone who commits adultery has committed the unforgivable sin.

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That's not the unforgivable sin. You can be forgiven of it. God expends no more anthropomorphic energy, if you will, of forgiving someone of sexual sin than he does any other sin.

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So you can be forgiven. You can be restored to a right relationship with a local body of believers. But you will never again be above reproach.

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Your reproach will not be blotted out. You'll never again be qualified to be behind the pulpit, because there is something about sexual sin,

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Chris, that is different than other sin. Other sins are committed outside of the body.

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You know, when I rob a bank or something like that. And how often have you done that? Not a lot.

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Not a lot. My CP has kind of prevented me from having a career as a banker. Actually, nobody would ever guess that you'd be coming into that bank with a gun underneath your coat.

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Yeah, that's true. I'm not getting in unsuspecting. It's always the getaway that's the problem for me. Ha! Ha!

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Ha! Exit backwards with the gun pointed at everybody.

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You're right. Yeah, I put my scooter in reverse. The other sins are committed outside of the body.

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They're external, but sexual sin is inside the body. the Apostle Paul says, it's different.

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Sexual sin leaves a wound that other sins just don't leave.

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It leaves a scar, a wound. And again, that's not to say that you can't be forgiven.

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You can be slate white clean, but it leaves a reproach, particularly for the man in ministry, and he'll never be qualified to be behind the pulpit again.

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So if Steve Lawson wants to get back in the pulpit, he's going to have to change his theology. It won't happen in our circles.

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Well, can you give us, because people are constantly asking me for updates on Stephen Lawson, and until I spoke with you last night, although I did have other updates trickling in, some of them

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I don't know if I can rely upon them as being accurate. I think that I jumped the gun with posting a video on Facebook that I found that was offering a hope that Stephen Lawson was on the right track now and a good church, but I think that that is probably an exaggeration from what

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I heard from you last night. But if you could provide us with an update on what exactly is going on in his life.

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Yeah, well, I have not talked with Steve Lawson, but from my best understanding, from talking to people who do know him well, he is attending a church, a

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Presbyterian church in Nashville. He's living with his brother somewhere in Nashville.

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So his wife has demanded that he leave the premises that they shared. I don't know.

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I don't know if she demanded that or not, or he just left. That, I'm not sure. So, but he's not at home unless it's just recently happened.

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So he's in a Presbyterian church, which I'm glad he's in a church, but if he were truly repentant, he needs to be at his own church under the care of his own elders.

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But he doesn't have one. Well, yeah, that's another thing is that a lot of people have said that there is evidence that Steve Lawson, not only was he not an elder at Trinity Bible Fellowship, which is a church he was preaching at, that he wasn't even a member.

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Now, I've heard some evidence on both sides. Some say he was, some say he wasn't. I don't know. But I do know that he was not an elder at Trinity Bible Fellowship and he was called the lead preacher.

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And Chris, it's one of those things, like some people have asked me, well, how did, how did you not know that? Well, as far as me,

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A, I was never close with Steve Lawson. I was never able to really engage him in conversation.

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He was always very aloof for me. So you could probably put the entirety of the direct one -on -one conversations that Steve and I have had probably within 15 minutes.

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I mean, we just haven't talked hardly any one -on -one. But as far as checking as to whether or not he was an elder in his church or a member, for that matter, it's one of those things like some things are so obvious,

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I guess, or you think are so much a given you don't even think to check. You know, it's like I never crossed my mind to say to check, you know,

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I should probably check and see if Steve Lawson's a member of his church. I never crossed my mind, never crossed my mind to see if he was an elder at his church.

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I just assumed that he was. And it turns out he wasn't. He was called the lead preacher, which there's no such thing in the

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New Testament as a lead preacher. That's a label, a title you're not going to find in the

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Bible. Right. So, well, there have been different responses in regard to his silence.

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Some have said in order to give him the benefit of the doubt, well, he's just following the instruction of the elders where he is worshiping right now.

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They are telling him at least now to stay out of the limelight, stay out of the spotlight, out of the public eye.

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For what reasons, I'm not sure, perhaps in their minds until further healing and restoration takes place.

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But when you talk about a person of his notoriety, which was global, and someone who had high positions of authority at major Christian institutions, who's affected the lives originally in very positive ways, he's affected lives numerically in the tens of thousands, perhaps even much larger than that.

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I'm not aware, but I could easily accept that as a real figure. It is not appropriate for a person who has committed a sin of that magnitude to just disappear off the face of the earth, is it?

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No, Chris, it's not. And let's just assume that people around him did give him that counsel.

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Well, first thing, you know, to remain silent. First thing I would say, that's terrible counsel. Right. And he should know better.

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He should know better and reject that counsel. That's right. That's right. He should reject that counsel because that's terrible counsel.

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He had, you know, next to John MacArthur, he was one of the most well -known names in our circles, a massive influence, massive platform.

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And his adultery, he has become a stumbling block to potentially millions of people around the world.

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When this news broke back in September, I was getting texts from friends of mine, emails saying, is it true?

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Is this true? And people were doubting their own salvation.

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You know, if this happened to Steve Lawson, can I even believe that I'm saved?

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And doubting who to, not knowing who they could trust as preachers. You know, if you can't trust

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Steve Lawson, who can you trust? You know, I thought I could trust Steve Lawson. He was, you know, close to John MacArthur and Ligonier and G3 Ministries.

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And you would just assume that this man was living out what he preached. And yet he wasn't.

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And so now you've got untold numbers of precious believers around the world and they don't know who they can trust.

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You know, and can I trust Justin Peters for that matter? You know, and understandably so,

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I get it. It's a horrible, horrible stumbling block.

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And the fact that we are now, what, six months out from this being made public back in September, the silence is deafening.

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And, you know, a number of years ago, there were a couple of other fairly well -known names in our circles that also failed morally,

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Chris. And I won't name them because as best I know they've repented, but they were fairly well -known.

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And very shortly after their sin was discovered, they put out public statements with sincere apologies, you know, and that's good.

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That's what they should have done. But nothing from Steve Lawson. And he's had six months.

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It's inexcusable. I cannot imagine a scenario in which his silence can be justified.

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I just can't. Well, when we come back from our first commercial break, I want you to address some things that we and the body of Christ in general should learn from this.

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And if anybody listening has a question of your own that you'd like to ask, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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But today I want to introduce you to my senior pastor, Doug McMasters of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island.

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Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur.

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In the film Chariots of Fire, Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt

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That love starts with the wonderful news that the Lord Jesus Christ is a Savior who died for sinners and that God forgives all who come to him in repentance, trusting solely in Christ to deliver them.

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That's 516 -352 -9672. That's New High Park Baptist Church, a congregation in love with each other, passionate for Christ, committed to learning and being shaped by God's word and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.

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We're now back with Justin Peters. We have been discussing the heartbreaking tragedy of the fall of Stephen Lawson and his disappearance from any public appearance at all.

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You know, his disappearance from the public eye, where he has offered no request for forgiveness.

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He's offered no declaration of repentance. He has just, for the moment, it seems, fallen off the face of the earth.

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And we have to learn something from this, or we should, Brother Justin.

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And I think one of the things that we should learn, and I'm sure you would agree, is that we have to be very careful about how high we uphold our heroes in the faith.

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I'm not saying that Christians shouldn't have heroes. We should have people that we look up to, that we learn from, get edified by, and encouraged and challenged and comforted and educated and nourished.

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Of course, we should be in a church where those things are happening from our own pastors, of course.

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But there's nothing wrong with having heroes of the faith, both those in heaven and both those alive here on the earth.

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But we have to be very careful about turning these men into idols, don't we? We do,

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Chris. We do. And that's one of the pitfalls in our evangelical world. You know, the secular world has its celebrities,

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Hollywood and whatnot. And unfortunately, that same dynamic can be found even in our circles.

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You put men up on a pedestal and elevate them to a position that they really should not be in.

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And most of them, I can confidently say, don't even want to be in. You know,

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I know the well -known names in our circles. I know John MacArthur. I know

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Votie Bauckham and Paul Washer and some of those guys. And they're good men.

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They're good men. They never asked to be in the position that they're in. It's just the Lord has seen fit to give them a large platform, more public than most.

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But there is that danger. Now, Paul makes an interesting statement in 1 Corinthians 11, he says, you are to imitate me just as I imitate

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Christ. We can and should imitate those people who are our spiritual leaders, you know, preachers, well -known preachers, in as much as they are imitating

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Christ. So we can imitate them in as much as they are imitating Christ.

40:19

But when they prove themselves to not be followers of Christ, to not be imitating of Christ, then they come crashing back down to earth, and we should not, of course, imitate them then.

40:33

And Steve Lawson has sadly shown himself to not be an imitator of Christ.

40:42

The danger he is in is very real. It's not just the adultery,

40:49

Chris. It would be bad enough for Steve if he had just, if this was like a one -night moment of weakness, that would have been bad enough, and it would have been disqualifying for him, ministerially speaking.

41:03

But this went on for several years. Now, there's some indication that it didn't turn physical until late, but at bare minimum, it was adultery of the heart for several years.

41:18

And Jesus said, if you look at a woman with lust, you've committed adultery already in your heart. So he had, at bare minimum, an emotional relationship, his committing emotional adultery against his wife and with this young woman for several years.

41:35

So it's that, it's that extended period of sin, not only the sin of adultery, but also the lying.

41:47

I mean, how many men did he have to lie to to keep this up? He would have to look men like John MacArthur and Josh Bice and Chris Lawson at Ligonier, I'm sorry?

42:00

I was just about to say R .C. Sproul, because he was still alive when Steve was ministering. He was ministering for Ligonier.

42:07

Yeah, yeah. Well, yes, I've seen them on discussion panels at conferences.

42:14

Yeah, yeah. Now, as far as we know, this relationship was not going on back then when

42:20

R .C. was alive. So, yeah, as far as we know, but it is kind of hard to imagine how this kind of behavior started when he was, you know, like 68 or something.

42:33

It's just, at any rate, but he had to lie to many, many, many people to keep this up.

42:41

So it was the adultery, it was the lying. And my question is, where was the convicting work of the

42:47

Holy Spirit in his life? How was he not riddled with conviction? How was it that he could get up and preach with such passion and such conviction, and yet there be no conviction in his own life of the sin that he was in?

43:03

It's hard for me to wrap my mind around. It really, really is. It's a very concern for Steve Lawson and where he is spiritually.

43:14

I'm very, very concerned. And another issue I think that we should learn from this is the importance of vetting brothers in Christ when they are invited into our pulpits, when they are invited to participate in ministry in our parachurch organizations, when they are being appointed to positions of leadership in these organizations.

43:45

One thing that I have admired about James White of Alpha Omega Ministries is that for decades, he has been involved in outdoor evangelism primarily to Mormons, but to others as well.

44:04

And there have been people who have approached him over the years, eager to participate with him, to pass out tracts and do other things in an effort to be of assistance to him and Alpha Omega Ministries volunteers.

44:23

And he has always asked them immediately, where are you a member as far as what church are you a member of?

44:31

And he has been told on some occasions, I'm not a member of any church. He said, well, I'm sorry, I don't want you to be associating yourself publicly with my ministry because that is an act of rebellion to not be a member of a local church.

44:48

And so please go search for a biblically faithful church and join it.

44:53

And then the next time I see you, I'll be more than happy to hand you a fistful of tracts and we can go out together.

45:01

But this is very important, isn't it? Because it's more than just an individual when that individual's name and presence is attached to an organization like a church or a parachurch ministry that may have thousands of people depending upon it for spiritual nourishment.

45:30

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, Chris. Any ministry must be connected to a local church.

45:36

I'm an evangelist. I travel and preach and teach across the United States, around the world. And my ministry has always been closely connected to a local church where I'm an active member.

45:49

I have oversight of my ministry from my own elders. My board of directors right now is comprised of two pastors and a deacon, and they know exactly where I am.

46:02

They know exactly what I'm doing. They know finances of the ministry and everything. But if you're in ministry, it's got to be coming out of a local church.

46:12

In fact, in the last six months, well, seven months, I guess now, since last August, I've been an elder at my own church.

46:20

So I'm a big believer in that. I don't believe in these lone ranger

46:25

Christians doing ministry, and I've seen far too much of that.

46:30

I intentionally limit my travel on the road so that I can be an active part of my church.

46:37

I want that. I want that accountability. And it's a very dangerous thing for an evangelist or somebody in ministry to be on the road all the time and never be at their own church and not have that accountability, not have that oversight.

46:54

Now, another thing I believe we could learn from this is to dismiss, denounce, reject the false teaching that is very prevalent, extremely prevalent in the body of Christ that sin is sin is sin, and we should never treat some sins as a more grievous act than others, and that no matter who commits any sin, we should always be immediately ready to forgive and forget.

47:39

And I can even recall someone that I know who, although I don't believe there was an actual completion of any kind of sexual act, there was adultery of the heart going on, as you were mentioning before, and the man was a pastor, was dismissed from his position, a position, and although he was later, after being under the oversight of pastors, shown to be a man truly repentant, he was restored to membership in full good standing, but not to an office.

48:22

And there were people that also knew this man who would say how horrible that was.

48:29

Who are you to condemn this man? Because you're a sinner, too. We've all sinned, and therefore, he should have been allowed back into that pulpit.

48:42

And this is not a biblical way of thinking. I mean, if you drive it to its logical conclusions, you would have to say that a pedophile is no more of a sinner than somebody who is eating too much at the church picnic, you know?

49:03

Right. But if you want to comment on that. Yeah, sure. So, you know, sin is sin.

49:12

If you've committed one sin, all sins are just like the other sins.

49:17

Well, yes and no. Sin is sin in the sense that if you break one of God's commandments, you've broken them all.

49:25

That is true. You commit one sin, and that is worthy of eternity in hell. That's true.

49:32

I agree with that, because we have sinned against an infinite, eternal God, and the punishment is also infinite and eternal.

49:40

But not all sins have the same consequences. Different sins do have varying levels of consequences.

49:49

If I'm out driving, and I don't know, someone cuts me off or a deer runs in front of me, and in a moment of panic,

49:58

I let fly a four -letter word, is that a sin? Yeah, it is.

50:04

Does that have the same consequences as me being unfaithful to my wife and breaking the marriage covenant and bringing reproach upon the name of Christ?

50:13

No, obviously not. So different sins do have different consequences.

50:21

So it's a cop -out to just say, oh, sin, sin, just confess it and move on with your life and everything's back to normal.

50:30

No, it's not back to normal. If you have a history of being inappropriate with children, in my book, that's the lowest of the low, and it's hard for me to control my anger even when

50:46

I think about that kind of thing. But can you be forgiven? Yes, you can.

50:52

Does that mean I'm going to trust you around kids, either my own or in the church? Nope, sure not.

50:58

You forfeited that right. You will be watched like a hawk. In this kind of sin that Steve Lawson has committed, it carries with it permanent disqualification from ministry.

51:14

I want Steve to repent. I want him to be restored to the fellowship of a local church, his own.

51:21

It's what it needs to be, his own church. But has that happened yet? No, apparently not, and sadly not.

51:29

Okay, let me take one more, or should I say our first question from a listener before we go to our midway break.

51:37

Ted in Moundville, Alabama says, I was struck by Chris's introduction and particularly how he addressed the issue of Steve Lawson's almost complete silence—actually,

51:48

I don't think it's almost complete, I think it is complete silence—following the revelation of his sin.

51:54

Specifically, Mr. Lawson has been the beneficiary of legions of book buyers, conference attendees, and seminary students through whom he acquired an almost

52:07

Olympian status in Reformed circles, and by all counts, quite a comfortable living, to say the least.

52:14

One might reasonably expect that he would have something to say to that crowd before six months had elapsed, but that has not been our good fortune.

52:25

Surprisingly, some of his biggest fans have claimed that Steve does not owe us an explanation or an apology.

52:33

I'm wondering how Justin Peters would assess these matters. To what extent does

52:38

Steve owe his followers an apology, an explanation, or anything else, and why or why not?

52:48

It's interesting that he says some of his biggest fans have said that he doesn't owe us an apology. I have not heard anybody say that of any prominent status, but I'm actually going to have to have you answer that when we come back from the break, because we've already reached the time and we have to go to our midway break.

53:06

And if you'd like to join Ted and others with a question of your own, send it to chrisorensen at gmail .com.

53:13

Don't go away. We're going to be right back. I'm Dr.

53:22

Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

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Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use the eight -volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the

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It is much more than an exposition of the Larger Catechism. It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology.

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Dr. Moorcraft is pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, and I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.

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For details on the eight -volume commentary, go to westminstercommentary .com, westminstercommentary .com.

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For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com,

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heritagepresbyterianchurch .com. Please tell Dr. Moorcraft and the

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Saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia that Dr. Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sends you.

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I would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in the Long Island area or Queens or Brooklyn or the

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That's 516 -352 -9672. That's New High Park Baptist Church, a congregation in love with each other, passionate for Christ, committed to learning and being shaped by God's word and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.

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01:06:04

Welcome back. Before I return to my friend Justin Peters and our conversation about the fall of Stephen Lawson and how we are to respond to it, and also later, immediately following that, our discussion of Paula White, an arch heretic who has the ear of the

01:06:22

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and put I need a church in the subject line. And now we're back with Justin Peters to continue and finalize our discussion on Stephen Lawson's fall.

01:08:46

And we had an email from Ted in Moundville, Alabama, who is basically asking you if you think

01:08:53

Steve Lawson owes his followers an apology or explanation or anything else. Obviously, you really already answered that in the beginning, but maybe you want to be more specific in your answer as to why.

01:09:09

Yes, well, he's led so many people astray. He's had such a public ministry.

01:09:15

Public sin requires public repentance, Chris. And I've said the same thing for others that I've confronted,

01:09:23

Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Paul White, you name them. I've done several videos calling them to repentance.

01:09:29

And I've said that public teaching is open to public critique. Public sin requires public repentance.

01:09:38

And it's the same in our camp. You know, when one of our own does it, the same truth applies to them too.

01:09:46

So it's I can't even wrap my mind around not wanting to do that.

01:09:58

Does he have the care and concern for all of the untold numbers of people that he has led astray, that he has deceived, that he has become a stumbling block to?

01:10:11

I mean, I can't even wrap my mind around that. If I had done something like this, perish the thought,

01:10:19

I can't imagine not wanting to apologize. But I don't know, it speaks to,

01:10:28

I'm afraid of how seared his conscience is. Because I don't, if it were me and people told me, hey, you probably shouldn't say anything publicly, don't offer a public apology,

01:10:41

I would do it anyway, because it's just the right thing to do. Or at least, and perhaps you could agree or disagree with me, if he's not going to make a public apology in the sense that he is on a video recording or something, or an audio recording, or even just a written statement, he should go to people like John MacArthur and Burke Parsons of Ligonier Ministries and others and ask them for forgiveness.

01:11:14

And ask them to report to the public what they conversed about in regard to his approaching them with repentance.

01:11:25

Yeah, at bare minimum that. And maybe, perhaps he has had contact with some of the heads of these ministries,

01:11:32

I'm not sure. Well, the last time I saw a recent video with John MacArthur when he was addressing this, he had not received anything like that.

01:11:42

Yeah, to the best of my knowledge as of this recording, there has not been a meaningful apology to anyone, to the best of my knowledge.

01:11:53

And that's just incomprehensible for me. Well, we have a friend of mine,

01:12:02

Alex Wright. I usually don't give the full name of the listeners who send in questions, but Alex happens to be the founder of a ministry called

01:12:13

Vessels for Christ in Coconut Creek, Florida. And so I want to encourage people to explore that ministry.

01:12:22

But Alex asks, regarding the Steve Lawson situation, can Justin touch on the importance of being open and transparent with your sins to the people you address?

01:12:36

And he says, I find this lacking from what I had listened to by Steve in the past.

01:12:45

And that is an interesting question slash statement, because I would have to go back to listening to Steve, and I really don't want to do that right now.

01:13:00

But he makes a point. I don't know if I've ever heard him being self -debasing and humble.

01:13:09

He may have, in a general sense, used the slogans of, we're all sinners, but do you have any comments on that?

01:13:18

Well, you know, now that we're a number of months removed from it, and that is something

01:13:25

I've heard from a lot of people, that one of the things that people have been struck by who have been around him is his arrogance and a lack of humility.

01:13:38

And like I said, I wasn't around him enough personally, just one -on -one, but kind of the intangible stuff,

01:13:46

I got that sense from him, as did others. But now it's being confirmed by people who actually did have direct one -on -one interactions with him.

01:13:55

That's one of the common refrains that I hear is an arrogance about him, a pridefulness and lack of humility.

01:14:05

And that should not be said for someone in ministry. You should expect the opposite of that.

01:14:14

Well, I want to plug Alex's website for Vessels for Christ. It's vesselsforchrist .org,

01:14:21

vesselsforchrist .org. Please pray for him as he is planning a number of trips this year.

01:14:28

So thank you for the excellent question, comment, Alex. I'll take one more question about the

01:14:35

Steve Lawson tragedy, and then we'll move on to Paula White. So sorry, folks,

01:14:43

I can only take one more of your questions. Jordan in Old Westbury, Long Island asks, in your opinion, what should we do with all of our

01:14:53

Stephen Lawson books, video recordings of his sermons and participation in conferences and documentaries?

01:15:01

Should we delete them from our computers? Should we throw the books away? Should we burn them?

01:15:08

Do you have any ideas? Yeah, I'm actually really glad that question was asked.

01:15:16

So yeah, throw them away. You can get the same truth from other venues, other resources, other men who actually are qualified to be doing what they're doing.

01:15:28

So we now know that he was never qualified to be in the position that he is in. And so that brings a stain on everything that he has written and preached.

01:15:39

Has he written and preached truth? Absolutely. But you can get that same truth from someone else.

01:15:46

And my fear is, you know, I don't want someone 10, 15, 20 plus years from now coming across Steve Lawson books and picking it up and start reading it.

01:15:57

And then they're, you know, they're learning and they're being edified. And then all of a sudden they see on Google, they discover where Steve Lawson did this and disqualified himself.

01:16:08

And so now that brings, it's just the reproach that it brings upon Christ continues.

01:16:15

And he can, by keeping these books out and circulating them and saying, oh, you can still read the books.

01:16:23

Well, then he continues to be a stumbling block for people. So just throw them away.

01:16:32

You can get the same truth from other sources, other men. So I'm assuming then you think that all of the

01:16:42

Christian parachurch organizations who have Steve in their archives of speaking engagements, conferences, and all of those who've created documentaries with Steve, they've got to either do some editing and get him out of all of those venues or just delete them from existence.

01:17:06

I agree. Yeah. And as best I know, those ministries are doing that. Really? Yeah, as far, yeah.

01:17:15

Graces to you and TMS, they've scrubbed all of, excuse me,

01:17:20

Steve Lawson's stuff. You know, Todd Friel, Wretched Radio, he's had a number of things with Steve Lawson.

01:17:28

All of those videos are scrubbed. In fact, a couple months ago, I stumbled upon one on the

01:17:34

Wretched Radio YouTube channel and that had Steve Lawson. I texted it to Todd.

01:17:39

He said, oh, wow, thank you. He said, I thought we got all of them. And here's one that he missed. So it got rid of that.

01:17:46

Now, I can't speak for Ligonier, but I think Steve has gone from all the Ligonier stuff. I know with G3, he's gone from all of their stuff.

01:17:54

Oh, really? And I've, yep, yep. So I guess almost every final discussion they ever had is gone.

01:18:01

Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, or edited out. But it's, I mean, that's a whole other consequence of his sin is the heartache that he's caused these good ministries.

01:18:15

And I've been in, I don't know, two or three, maybe four documentaries with Steve Lawson.

01:18:23

Now, we weren't like side by side, but we were each interviewed and those interviews were put in the same documentary.

01:18:31

And the most recently, the cessationist documentary, I was in it.

01:18:36

So was Steve Lawson. And they had to pay someone to go in and edit and edit him out.

01:18:44

And I think they're trying to replace him with someone else. So, you know, but they're doing it.

01:18:49

They're doing their due diligence at their own expense, I might add. So, you know, it's, boy, the ripple effects of Steve's sin are far and wide.

01:18:59

He's caused a lot of people a lot of harm. And let me say this, the person who has been forgotten in all of this is his wife.

01:19:11

Yes, I feel horribly for her. Yes. And I don't, you know, it seems like she's been kind of neglected in this.

01:19:22

And she's the main person that he has harmed. Right.

01:19:27

That he has sinned against, next to Christ himself. And then followed by his children.

01:19:33

I believe he does have children, doesn't he? He does. Yes. I don't know how many, but yes, he does.

01:19:39

Well, I don't want people to think that my guests and I are heartless. I think we should all pray for the repentance of Stephen Lawson and be able to, if we saw him somewhere in public, embrace him as a brother.

01:19:58

Obviously, we don't believe after what has been said that he should be restored to a position of authority or prominence.

01:20:05

But he can be welcomed and restored back into the membership of a

01:20:12

Bible -believing church if he does indeed demonstrate credible repentance and so I think we should all pray to that end.

01:20:24

And I will keep you folks updated if I hear anything about new news about Steve Lawson in the days, weeks, months, and years ahead.

01:20:37

Okay, now we're going to switch gears to Paula White, and I think I'm going to take an early commercial break so I don't have to interrupt you in the middle of the evening.

01:20:50

So this will be the last commercial break that we have. And if you want to join us with a question about Paula White, the arch -heretic who has the ear of the

01:21:01

President of the United States, Donald Trump, who has been appointed to a White House faith office, much to the dismay of many people who may be very enthusiastic and excited about the election of our

01:21:18

President and seeing some of the wonderful things that he is accomplishing, it is like a punch to the gut to know that he has appointed this woman who actually could be accurately described as satanic to a position of public awareness like the

01:21:42

White House faith office. But we'll be taking your questions about Paula White at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:21:49

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Oh, and make sure that you tell them you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Well, welcome back,

01:32:03

Justin Peters. If you could give our listeners a summary description of who

01:32:12

Paula White is, and did I go overboard?

01:32:18

Did I go over the top in calling her an arch heretic and satanic? No, you did not,

01:32:26

Chris. That was a very apt, concise description. Paula White is a false teacher.

01:32:33

She's been around for a quarter century or more. She was really launched into the spotlight when

01:32:39

T .D. Jakes asked her to preach at the Woman Thou Art Loosed conference. T .D.

01:32:45

Jakes is himself a word -faith heretic. He's a modalist, doesn't even believe in the

01:32:50

Trinity. And so he's the one that kind of put her in the big times of the spotlight. There is a

01:32:58

D at the end of that, right? Woman Thou Art Loosed. Yes, I'm sorry.

01:33:07

Yeah, forgive me if I did not enunciate Thou Art Loosed.

01:33:14

So yeah, so she's had her own television program for 25 years,

01:33:21

I think now. And she's had a friendship with Donald Trump going back to the early 2000s.

01:33:28

This is something that, yeah, yeah. I remember watching Donald Trump on her television program,

01:33:34

Paula White Today, back in the early 2000s, 2004 or 5.

01:33:40

So was he even conservative back then? Trump, I mean, maybe economically, but not, you know, never, not socially, certainly.

01:33:52

But so they've had a long time friendship. It did not begin with his first administration.

01:34:00

But she is a word -of -faith heretic, the health and wealth, prosperity gospel. She teaches that it's always

01:34:08

God's will to be wealthy. It's always God's will to be healed. If you need a miracle, sow seed.

01:34:13

In other words, give her money. If you have cancer, give her money. God will heal you.

01:34:19

I cannot tell you how many times I've heard her teach that kind of a thing. She doesn't hide it.

01:34:25

She's very open about it. She claims that God speaks to her all the time.

01:34:31

She prophesied that Donald Trump would win a second consecutive term, not just a second term, but a second consecutive term.

01:34:38

So it was a false prophecy because he lost to Biden the last time. Right, right.

01:34:45

Yeah, and I've heard some say, well, he really won and the election was stolen. Well, okay, let's go there.

01:34:52

I'll grant, I think there were some shenanigans that went on in the 2020 election. But if God was really speaking to her and all these others, it's not like she was alone.

01:35:01

I mean, she joined a chorus of, I don't know, probably about a thousand prophets that also prophesied the same thing.

01:35:07

If God was speaking to them, God would have said, hey, guys and gals, Donald Trump's going to win the election, but it's going to be stolen through, you know, broken water mains in Atlanta and ballot dumps at 2 a .m.

01:35:21

and rigged Dominion voting machines and all that kind of stuff. None of them said anything of the sort. So, you know, they're just complete and total frauds and charlatans.

01:35:31

She claims that she's been to heaven, into the throne room of God. And Chris, that is a lie.

01:35:41

That is a lie. The Apostle Paul in St. Corinthians 12 was talking about this man who was caught up into the third heaven.

01:35:50

And he heard words that are inexpressible that man is not permitted to speak. He was speaking of himself.

01:35:55

Why do you think he was anonymous when he did that? Any thoughts? Anonymous? Well, I mean, he didn't identify himself, although we know that's who he was speaking about.

01:36:06

Yeah, I think the very reason he did not say this happened to me is because that is how humbled he was about what he had experienced.

01:36:17

He was so humbled by his experience that he did not even refer to himself in the first person. He used the third person.

01:36:24

I know a man. And which is a stark, stark contrast between the people that we see today, whether it's

01:36:32

Paula White or any of these others. I mean, you name a well -known charismatic preacher, 99 % chance they've claimed to have been to heaven.

01:36:43

Almost all of them have. And they can't wait to tell you about everything they saw, everything they heard while they were in heaven.

01:36:50

And yet the man who wrote roughly a third of the New Testament, the Apostle Paul, who as an apostle would have his name inscribed on one of the 12 foundation stones of the

01:37:01

New Jerusalem, he would not say what he saw and heard.

01:37:06

That is how humble he was. Complete, total contrast between the Yahoos that we see today.

01:37:13

And she has no fear of God because she regularly puts words in God's mouth that he did not say.

01:37:22

So she is a heretic. And now I'm not down on Trump because of this.

01:37:29

I voted for Trump. I voted for him three times now. Three in the same election?

01:37:37

Right. Unlike some, no. No, I just vote once per election.

01:37:44

So, and I'm ecstatic with what I see Trump doing, but I think so far the biggest mistake he has made by far is choosing her to be the head of his new faith office,

01:37:58

I think is what it's called, White House Faith Office. Now, I'm not upset at Trump for doing this because Trump is no theologian.

01:38:09

And he's not even really a regenerate man. No, no, he's not. He's not a Christian. And for those who might get mad at me for saying that, this is a man who on two different occasions, two different interviews was asked, have you ever asked

01:38:25

God for forgiveness? In both interviews, he said no. He doesn't think he has anything to ask for forgiveness for.

01:38:33

So by definition, if you've never asked God for forgiveness, okay, you're not a

01:38:39

Christian. So I don't expect him to understand the theological nuances of word of faith movement and all that kind of stuff, little

01:38:48

God's doctrines. I don't expect him to understand that. So I'm not upset at him.

01:38:54

He's just, he doesn't know any better. And there are people who do know better who have,

01:39:01

I'm sure, who are too cowardly to say anything, to rebuke him.

01:39:07

Mr. Trump, president, sir, you cannot appoint this woman to a position of leadership and place her in the public eye.

01:39:15

She's dangerous. I'm sure there's got to be people with all the people he knows who may even come very close, if not nearly identically believe like you and I do, who didn't say a peep about it.

01:39:31

That is exactly right, Chris. And I'm glad you brought that up. There are, there are other men around him who know who

01:39:38

Paula White is and they should know better. And I'm going to say these names.

01:39:44

I'll put it all on me. You know, I don't want anybody to get upset at you, but I want to say them because this is something that has burdened my heart ever since I've seen it.

01:39:53

Robert Jeffress and Jack Graham. Yeah. These are pastors of two of the largest

01:40:00

Southern Baptist churches in the entire country. First Baptist Church, Dallas, and Prestonwood Baptist in Dallas also, respectively.

01:40:10

And these are men who are the biggest names in the SBC. They know who

01:40:15

Paula White is. And yet, Chris, they have endorsed her. And when I say endorsed her,

01:40:21

I don't mean just a passive, I'm not going to say anything bad about her. Actively endorsed her.

01:40:28

Wow. And in Jack Graham's case, not only has he endorsed

01:40:34

Paula White, he's also endorsed Benny Hinn. Wow. Amazing. Which is going to be a video coming up on my channel very soon.

01:40:42

Well, somebody who hasn't endorsed her that I know of, maybe he has, but who has been cowardly in his silence about that is

01:40:54

Mike Johnson, the Speaker of the House. Yeah. He, I believe, is from a sound biblical church.

01:41:04

I don't know if it's Reformed, but I know that he has had friendships with very conservative Reformed pastors who actually were quite upset with him for his shift in becoming much more soft on the area of abortion.

01:41:20

But he should have said something. That's right. He should have.

01:41:26

I mean, he may have, I guess, but was rejected. But the other men you mentioned have openly endorsed her.

01:41:33

Absolutely. Openly endorsed her and they're pastors. And so I would hold them to a much higher level of accountability, even than Mike Johnson.

01:41:42

But I agree with you on Mike Johnson. But, yeah, Jack Graham and Robert Jeffress, I'll say this.

01:41:48

It is so egregious that they would endorse Paula White that I believe it is ministerially disqualifying for them.

01:41:57

One of the pastor's most solemn duties is to protect the flock from wolves who would prey upon the flock.

01:42:07

That's what a pastor is supposed to do. Paul said in Titus, or to Titus, in Titus chapter one, verse nine, he said, teach sound doctrine and refute those who contradict.

01:42:19

It's not an either or, it's a both and. As a pastor, you are to teach sound doctrine and you are to refute those who contradict it.

01:42:27

And if you can't refute Paula White, who can you refute? I mean, if Paula White is not a false teacher,

01:42:35

Chris, the term has no meaning. If Paula White is not a false teacher, nobody is. So it is inexcusable that these men would endorse her.

01:42:45

Yeah, and you know what adds to the grotesqueness of that is you're not talking about Trump appointing somebody that they have great theological difference with.

01:43:06

Perhaps they might even view a man who, let's say he's a United Methodist pastor or an

01:43:13

Anglican minister, and they may in their heart of hearts know there is little doubt that this person is unregenerate.

01:43:24

But at the same time, he may be a man of integrity, the kind of integrity that, you know, we have neighbors who are not

01:43:34

Christians, that we would trust our families to be in their presence and to have barbecues at their home.

01:43:45

We might even have the lady next door who's unregenerate babysit and so on.

01:43:51

You know, people that you have high regard for in a secular sense. But this is a person that you cannot escape knowing that she's a charlatan and a fraud, a person who is conscious of her own deceit.

01:44:06

That's right. That's right. There's no way. You can be ignorant of someone like Paula White, because she has had such a massive platform.

01:44:14

She was a pastor, which that's a whole other issue. I mean, the female pastor,

01:44:21

Church Without Walls in the Tampa area, one of the largest churches in the country, over 20 ,000 members.

01:44:28

So, I mean, there's no, you can't plead ignorance. And, you know, in the cases of like Robert Jefferson, Jack Graham, two big names in the

01:44:36

SBC, they would say, oh, we're a complementarian. We don't believe that a woman can be a pastor.

01:44:43

Okay, so why are you endorsing Paula White? And, oh, we don't believe that it's always

01:44:49

God's will for a person to be healed as long as they have enough faith and as long as they give enough money to some ministry.

01:44:56

Oh, you don't? So why are you endorsing Paula White? We don't believe that people can really go to heaven and come back and tell stories about it.

01:45:05

Oh, you don't? Then why are you endorsing Paula White? On and on and on. These men,

01:45:10

I have no respect for them. I have no respect for them. You know, and the reason they're compromising,

01:45:18

Chris, they know who Paula White is. The reason they're compromising is because Paula White has been their doorway into, to access the

01:45:31

White House, access Donald Trump. I've said before on X that I wish so much,

01:45:40

I wish so, so much I could have 30 minutes to sit down with our president and just explain to him what the gospel actually is and explain to him why he's surrounded by people who claim to be

01:45:56

Christians and are really not Christians. He's had a horrible example of what true

01:46:01

Christianity really is. I feel badly for him. I wish so much I could have that opportunity to explain the truth to him.

01:46:11

Well, we have a question from Tricia in Marysville, Pennsylvania, who says,

01:46:18

Are you aware of whether or not Paula White believes like many other word of faith heretics believe that Jesus Christ actually became a demonic entity on Calvary and went to hell to be tortured by the demons while there before rising from the grave and before becoming the first born -again man in hell?

01:46:44

Yeah, that is a staple doctrine of the word faith movement, and I'm trying to think, Chris, I can't honestly say that, at least right now, it's not coming to my remembrance that I've heard her teach that per se, but I would be 99 .9

01:46:59

percent certain that she does, because that's just a standard doctrine in the word of faith movement of which she is a part.

01:47:04

So I would be shocked if she does not believe that or has not taught that.

01:47:11

I would almost guarantee that she has. And if she doesn't, she has the duty to rebuke her colleagues in that false religious system for believing that, because that is a teaching that is at the height of blasphemy.

01:47:32

That is, absolutely. It is the height of blasphemy to teach that Jesus became a demonic being and had to be reborn, had to get saved in hell.

01:47:40

But that is a staple doctrine of the word faith movement. So, yeah, it's horrific. Well, you said that you don't hold anything against the president about this.

01:47:53

Is there anything that we, the average Christians and even the pastors listening, in your opinion, is there any practical thing they could do to try to reverse this situation?

01:48:07

I mean, it seems like something totally out of our orbit of influence, but do you have any suggestions on how we should react about this?

01:48:18

Yeah, I would encourage pastors to, if they're not familiar with the word of faith movement, brush up on it.

01:48:26

I'm not trying to sell anything here. Please understand it. Watch my DVD, Clouds Without Water, and familiarize yourself with the word of faith movement, because given

01:48:36

Paula White's close proximity to Donald Trump and the huge platform she now has, it has again, after kind of a four -year hiatus, people see it and they want to know or they need to know what's wrong with Paula White, especially since she's being endorsed by Jack Graham and Robert Jeffress.

01:48:56

So it's going to cause a lot of confusion. And so I would encourage our pastors to do what

01:49:02

Paul said to Titus, teach sound doctrine and refute those who contradict. Do some teaching on Paul White, maybe not necessarily on Sunday morning in the pulpit, but in your

01:49:11

Sunday school, in your small groups, Wednesday night or whatever, take some opportunities to educate your church.

01:49:20

Get one of my DVDs, Clouds Without Water, and play it for your church in a, I don't know, like I said,

01:49:26

Sunday school or whatever venue you have, because people need to know why this is such a dangerous movement.

01:49:34

It is theological poison that will do shipwreck to their souls. Let's see here.

01:49:41

We have Byron in Bethpage, Long Island, New York, and Byron asks, do you actually know what

01:49:52

Paula White's alleged responsibilities and activities will be in this role of faith office?

01:50:04

From what I've heard, it's to protect religious freedom of all

01:50:12

Americans, but I guess specifically of Christians, because Christianity is the only religion that's actually been persecuted in this country in the last four years.

01:50:20

So exactly what that looks like, what kind of power that her office will have,

01:50:26

I don't know. But yeah, Paula White is a horrible representation of Christianity.

01:50:34

She's a wolf. She's a hireling, a false teacher. Okay, we have

01:50:42

Jeremiah in Salt Lake City, Utah, who asks, and I'm looking for the question now.

01:50:48

I just had it in front of me. Oh, he asks, is it true that Paula White had an adulterous affair with Benny Hinn?

01:51:02

It is true. I mean, that's a verifiable fact? Yeah, yeah.

01:51:09

The National Enquirer broke that story back, I think it was in 2010.

01:51:16

Yeah, 2010. And they photographed Benny Hinn and Paula White coming out of a hotel,

01:51:24

I can't remember what country, some European country, but coming out of a hotel, holding hands. Benny Hinn was married at the time.

01:51:33

Was she? That I don't know. I can't remember. She's on her third husband.

01:51:40

I can't remember. I can't remember if she was married at that particular time or if she was between husbands.

01:51:45

I don't know. But yeah, yeah, that's indisputable. And very shortly after that story broke is when

01:51:52

Benny Hinn got divorced. Wow. So his wife left him. Now, you cited as the source, the

01:51:59

National Enquirer, who may have printed stories about Elvis landing in a flying saucer. I mean, do you have any more credible evidence that that's something that occurred even in regard to there?

01:52:11

Was there any public reaction to being caught? Was there any? Yeah. Yeah, I remember as a kid looking at the

01:52:19

National Enquirer, you know, and have the picture like aliens talking to Ronald Reagan or something. Looney Tunes stuff.

01:52:28

But I think in the last couple of decades, they kind of turned towards a more, you know, like a for lack of a better hard news, you know, they actually do some real reporting.

01:52:40

But other other venues picked it up. They broke the story, but other venues picked it up. So, I mean, a quick Google search,

01:52:47

Benny Hinn, Paula White affair. There's a lot of people that reported on that. So did either of them publicly acknowledge this, according to your knowledge?

01:52:58

Yes. So I don't know what Paula White said about it, but Benny Hinn acknowledged lacking wisdom.

01:53:05

I don't know that he ever acknowledged having actual, well, sexual relations with Paula White.

01:53:13

I don't know they actually confessed directly to that, but he did acknowledge being unwise, making poor decisions.

01:53:20

And we all know what that means. Like, come on, you're come out of a hotel holding hands. You weren't in there playing checkers.

01:53:28

Well, I'd like you to have about five minutes to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

01:53:39

Perhaps you could spend a couple of minutes summarizing your thoughts on Stephen Lawson and then shift over to your summary of thoughts on Paula White and our response as Christians.

01:53:51

Okay, Chris. Heartbreaking, particularly with Steve Lawson.

01:53:57

As I said, I expect this kind of stuff in the Word of Faith movement, but in our circles, it's especially grievous because we do hold

01:54:07

Scripture to a very high authority and the sovereignty of God and His glory. Those are the things that we champion.

01:54:13

And so when you see it in our circles, it's especially grievous and it hurts far more than it does when you see it with people that you expect it from.

01:54:22

As a minister, as a preacher, it is never far from my mind that one day I will stand before Christ and I will have to give an account.

01:54:32

And that is a thought that terrifies me, not in the sense that I'm worried about the wrath of God.

01:54:41

I have no fear of God's wrath because Christ took God's wrath for me.

01:54:49

And now there's therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, Romans 8 .1.

01:54:54

So the wrath of God has been satisfied. But it does terrify me, knowing that one day

01:55:01

I will have to give an account for what I've done with my life, what I've done with my ministry, how I've handled

01:55:06

Scripture. And I will stand before Christ one day, and I don't want to stand before Him and have reason to be ashamed.

01:55:16

I don't want to stand before Him and have to give an account for being a stumbling block to other people.

01:55:23

One day, we have an audience of one, Chris. There's only one person that we have got to please, and that is

01:55:32

God. So have a fear of God. As a Christian, have a healthy, reverential fear of the

01:55:39

Lord. Never do anything to become a stumbling block. Jesus said it'd be better for you to have a millstone tied around your neck and cast into the sea than cause one of these little ones to stumble.

01:55:51

I would rather die a thousand deaths than to do anything to bring reproach upon the name of Christ or be a stumbling block to other people.

01:55:59

I'd rather die a thousand painful deaths than to do that. As far as false teachers go with Paul of White, there are 27 books in the

01:56:11

New Testament, 26 of them directly warn about false doctrine and or false teachers.

01:56:17

So warning about false doctrine and false teachers is a prominent theme in the

01:56:22

New Testament. As I said, teach sound doctrine and refute those who contradict. Romans 16, 17 mark those who cause divisions and hindrances contrary to the doctrine which you learned and stay away from them over and over and over, just all throughout the

01:56:37

New Testament. This is a prominent theme in Scripture. The good news, even if you have committed the sin of adultery, there is forgiveness to be found in the

01:56:49

Lord Jesus Christ. Turn from sin, place your trust in him, there is forgiveness to be found.

01:56:55

If you will come to Christ empty -handed, seeking him, in him alone, seeking a

01:57:00

Savior not only from hell but a Savior from your sin, he will save you. You will find his arms open wide, ready to receive you.

01:57:09

He is a good and kind God. And he loves us and he gave his life for us.

01:57:15

So that is the good news of the gospel. All of your sins can be wiped away, you can be forgiven, given a new heart with new desires, new affections, and your eternity will be sealed and is certain in the strong sovereign hand of Christ our

01:57:31

King. And one day he, Jesus himself, will be our reward.

01:57:37

Amen. And I know that very often inmates in prisons even listen to Christian radio and things that are available to them on the internet.

01:57:50

In fact, years ago I had a pen pal who was a prison inmate in upstate

01:57:56

New York who we were introduced to each other because he began writing to me, listening to a radio program that my church was involved in that I created called

01:58:07

The Voice of Sovereign Grace. This was Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville. So any of you folks that have committed sins beyond our imagination, you might even be murderers, you've got to remember what our dear brother

01:58:24

Justin Peters said, there is no sin so deep and satanic that cannot be forgiven by Jesus Christ when you approach him with humility and repentance.

01:58:37

So please never forget that. And I just want to remind you also of Justin Peters' website, justinpeters .org,

01:58:46

justinpeters .org. And please, folks, put down on your calendar, perhaps circle the whole second half of September because we don't have an exact date yet, but sometime in late

01:59:01

September or early October, Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries will be preaching at the church where I am a member,

01:59:09

Trinity Reformed Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania. And if you want to keep updated on that, you can visit the website of Trinity Reformed Baptist Church of Carlisle at trbccarlisle .org,

01:59:22

trbccarlisle .org. And of course, keep listening to Iron Sharp and Zion Radio as I will announce any updates as well.

01:59:34

Well, my dear friend, Justin Peters, thank you so much for squeezing me into your extremely busy schedule.

01:59:40

I look forward to many opportunities to interview you again, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater