Talking With A Mormon Missionary

Christian Dignity and Respect in Hard Conversations

We do. Yeah, but at least we understand he's there and know he's there. I think one thing I appreciate about.

These types of discussions is like No, even regardless of what you believe or anyone believes. I believe you're created in the image of God. You're worthy of dignity honor respect and you need to be treated as such now.

We do disagree on stuff. And so I think the most loving thing is to have those hard discussions. Yes. But yeah, we can do with gentleness and kindness and love. Are you on mission right now? Yes, I'm doing a service mission.

Nice. Obviously, what's that involved? I've never met anyone on the service mission. Is that like at the temple?

Well, we did have different server sites. We can do stuff at the temple. Okay. Like food bank. Okay other places where the church is kind of involved in. Are you from here? You came in from somewhere else?

No, I'm from here.

Gotcha.

Sometimes you can leave the state and go somewhere else. Is that. Is that two years for the service mission. Also, okay nice. How long you've been doing it? Oh.

Wow, you're fresh out dude, did you go to like a year of college first or come right from school or?

Okay.

I'd have waited till after kovat is over to dude. Yeah. Yeah. Mostly most the missionaries I met that were out during that like what's what a story to go home with like you've been waiting 18 Years, dude to go on mission and now it's like you can't even go into people's houses.

That would that would have stunk man. But anyways, no, I did if you're willing I'd love to have a chat with you about a couple things. But honestly, the reason we're out here is three things dude with love and hopefully the gentleness and respect.

Who the Father, Son, and Gospel Are in Mormonism

We just fundamentally think that what your organization teaches regarding who the father is Who the son is and what the gospel is that we are different on all of those? And I think even though like we would both say and we would both say Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

You'll be saved. It's only through Jesus. He's the way the truth of life. We say this but like when we use the word Jesus, I think we mean something different. Is my under like when I look at something like Colossians 1 John 1 Hebrews 1.

These are similar things I see this picture of Jesus in the Bible that shows him as the creator of all things Colossians 1 says He created all things in heaven and on earth where the thrones dominions rulers authorities all things were created through him and for him and then my understanding of what your church teaches is that That actually those heavenly rulers and authorities are offspring of Elohim Creations of Jesus Christ that all of like Satan and you and me and all of us in the pre-existence.

We're not Creations of Jesus Christ, but offspring of Elohim. Is that the teaching? How do you like How do you reconcile that in light of what Colossians 1 or John 1 says? Yeah, how do you how do you reconcile that might of what John 1 or Colossians 1 says?

I mean for me personally, I Like if you think about it.

Is this easier for me to hear like this, yeah.

No, but for us in in our scriptures. Tells us that it took.

Father.

To God Seven days to make the earth. And in those time in that time he made each day. And I feel like that's where other churches kind of get Mixed up and like they said this or you know, I mean do we mean so I would also affirm that.

What do you mean by that? Is there a difference you're aware of like I I know. We would maybe mean something different by made and organized but like the six-day part I think we would probably agree on that part that in six days God created all these things.

Yeah. And I think. When I've read I think the book of Moses, it might be the book of Abram. I think Moses talks about intelligence as a matter of being organized like we wouldn't hold that position. We think God created everything out of nothing.

But yeah, what do you like that Jesus is the center of all of it like if. How will you answer God one day when he says that he told you in Colossians 1 and John 1 and Hebrews 1 that Jesus? Created all of those things that Jesus made you and me and Satan.

But then the church teaches that actually that's not the case. Like how do you do you see the tension there? Yeah, and why that's something that I think is important that we discuss because if Jesus Only the real Jesus can save us only the real Jesus can actually reconcile us with God and either Jesus is a creation.

Or he's the creator either he was organized or he is the organizer. He can't be both. Yes, and so only the one that I would argue only the one that created all things can save us. But I don't think I don't ever want to misrepresent you guys or your teachings.

I don't think that's the Jesus you guys teach you guys teach that he's a created Thing he was organized just like all of us were yeah. How can yeah, what would you say to that? How can you hold to that when the Bible explicitly says otherwise.

Yeah, and I won't even put you on the spot if you can't think of it right now. But like that's that's why we're out here. Yeah, but and that one and then probably just the gospel is a big one, too that when I look at something like 2nd Nephi 25 23 or Moroni 10 32 2nd Nephi 25 23 says that.

For by grace, you've been saved after all you can do and then I go that sounds familiar. And when I open up Ephesians 2 Ephesians 2 says you're saved by grace through faith. Apart from your works that no one may boast.

Those seem like opposite gospel messages to like either were saved by grace through faith apart from our works. Or we're saved by grace after all we can do like which comes first are we saved? First by grace, or do we have to do works in order for that grace to be?

Efficient and I know we have a difference on salvation and exaltation. But what would you I?

Mean.

Stretch my feet. I'm sorry.

I know a lot of it is based around like.

The word.

Like what like they did before us when they they Organize the church. Sure. He didn't did the work. Uh-huh. And so I feel like the apostles and such. Okay. Yes. They may they the foundation of it, right?

I mean we just and then Joseph Smith from there just don't built upon it. Yes, so for your like.

You're left for your exaltation and that's not something we hold to wait. But I I fairly decently understand your church is teaching on it for your exaltation. Like if you're gonna end up in the highest level of the celestial kingdom.

Is that dependent in any way upon your obedience to gospel ordinances and principles? Yes, there's grace or Christ. But does your obedience determine which level you'll be in at all? Yes.

It does but the only way you know where we're going.

That's a that's a fair answer.

It's the only way we'll know if. Because for us there's three tiers.

And then the highest divided into a few others, yeah, right, yeah.

We were taught we won't know for sure. We didn't try our best to do right what he wants us to do and strive our best to do all those things. And then we won't know our work and we did here was enough for us.

So like where I'm coming from and I genuinely do mean this with love like that Seems like a gospel that can't actually bring peace. And what I mean by that is if you don't ever Really know that you're gonna be as close to God as you can possibly be for all eternity.

How did like the gospel we're told is to give us peace? If it's left upon us like Moroni 10 says. Deny yourself of all in godliness. This is a paraphrase, but it's close. Love God with all your heart might and strength and then as his grace sufficient for you.

If if it's dependent upon you at all. Which I don't think it is but if it's dependent upon you at all for where you're gonna end up in eternity we know all of us that are honest men and you seem like a real honest dude is like we know we disobey and we sin even though we try not to.

And so if what we're told to do is that we have to obey the greatest commandment first for his grace to be efficient. Or sufficient for us if we're gonna be honest. We're we're gonna be damned like because because our work isn't good enough.

And like we're at where why I'm out here and why we're out here is because we have a genuine love and concern for you guys is that what what Galatians says is I don't know if you've read Galatians much but the Apostle Paul.

He talks to this church and he's like dude. Why are you guys are abandoning this gospel that I brought to you? What are you doing? And what they were doing is they were saying we need Jesus. We need grace.

But we also need to obey this one work in the law. And what they were saying at that time is we have to also be circumcised. We have to do this ordinance. In order for us to actually be saved essentially.

And what Paul's response to them was no matter if you I know you believe that you need grace. I know you believe in Jesus, but the very fact that you're trying to mix one work into this for your standing before God in eternity.

What Paul said is you're anathema you're accursed you're cut off from God and I don't want that for you. I don't want that for anybody. But it seems like what you're that seems like what you're saying is that you're saying that we have to do these we have to mix these works in for that Purpose of our standing before God obviously we have to do good works.

James is clear. Ephesians 2 10 is clear but those aren't the foundation upon which our Relationship with God eternally is going to exist. Does that make sense? Yeah, and that's where.

Sure.

Does that mean to become exalted to Godhead? Yeah. Okay, basically. Yeah.

Yeah, no one's perfect. Everybody make mistakes. Sure.

We don't really I mean I appreciate your honesty, by the way, most people's shy away from that go. Well not God. Uh, just be like, yeah, I appreciate your honesty. Thank you. Yeah. You're talking about repetitiveness is the need for repentance.

Repentance, Exaltation, and the Peace the Gospel Must Give

Yeah, so we have the repentance process.

So when we.

We can.

Wash basically wash away our sins and be like him again. So like let's say I sinned one time and then I and I go to heaven. Mm-hmm. Like you'll go up the lowest tier of I forget is that celestial or terrestrial the lowest one.

Okay, and so you'll go to there but That they teach us if we repent and and write off our sins like like like that we're able to Give you our sins and we're able to go to the top top. Okay.

Okay, so that I Guess what like what. I'm trying to figure out that because I can look at what something is written. But that doesn't mean every individual is gonna say it or believe it exactly the same way.

So just trying to understand what you're saying. Yeah, that. It's not up to your works and obedience to the gospel ordinance and principles. It's strictly up to repentance.

It's kind of bold. Oh, it kind of goes together. Okay?

So.

Being the honest guy that you are, how are you doing? And like me too. Like because I think what Jesus makes very clear Paul to Romans 7. All over the places. It's not just the sins of our hands. But it's the sins in our heart too.

And even the desire for these wicked things, which I am also guilty of.

Is a.

Condemnable sin before God and I think like we're told in the Bible that if you keep all the commandments But you break in one point you stumble in one point. You're guilty of all of them. And so like it the very fact that I still sin that I still don't obey God's greatest command.

But that I don't love him with all my heart soul mind and strength. Means I'm guilty of everything. And like I said, I don't want that for you, man. I think there's a I think there's a better message and if I could leave you with one more thing is We talked about Christ and we talked about the gospel is are you familiar with?

Joseph Smith's King Follett discourse. It's a the King Follett discourse. There's a famous funeral sermon that Joseph Smith gave and you can look this up on the LDS website. Where Joseph says this he says you've imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity.

But I will refute that idea take back the veil so you can see you must learn to become gods yourselves and kings and priests To God as all gods have done before you.

How.

That's a I mean, I don't see any way around that being anything other than a direct contradiction to what God said in Isaiah. And Isaiah 43 46, he says several things. He says that he's the first he says that he's from everlasting to everlasting.

He says he doesn't know any other gods. He says there were none before none after so Isaiah Says no God's before none after. God doesn't even know of any other gods. And then Joseph Smith says 180 years ago.

Actually God's before God's after and you can become one yourself one day. Can you see how those whether you agree with my conclusion here? But can you see how that seems on its face at least a direct contradiction to what God said in Isaiah?

And so once again just my concern for you man, is that if you don't have the right God or Jesus or gospel. You don't want that. I don't want that for you and the God and the Jesus and the gospel that's presented by this organization as nice and sweet and good communities you guys have.

Dude, it can't reconcile you with a perfectly holy God. And so what I what I would want for you dude is my name is Eric. But just like forget don't worry about what the scraggly bearded guy on the street said.

I would encourage you to just look at what we gave you and seriously do what Moroni says. Pray about it. But also do what Deuteronomy 13 and Deuteronomy 18 says. Do what the Apostle Paul said and test the scriptures according to the scriptures.

And and I would love if I was you.

How.

Do you reconcile these different teachings between who is God and what the church Joseph Smith taught your church teaches? It was Jesus versus what Colossians 1 says. How is the second Nephi and Moroni 10 compared to Ephesians 2?

Though they can't both Be true if the Bible is true the book. Well, that's not from the Book of Mormon, but if the Bible is true Moroni is Book of Mormon second Nephi those can't be true. If the Bible is true the Book of Moses can't be true where it says that God's were organized.

And if those other ones are true than the Bible is not true they but they can't both be true at the same time because they are in. Do you see what I'm saying? They're in contradiction. Is there anything you'd like?

Do you see where I'm coming from?

What are your thoughts on that? Um, it is. It definitely is difficult. Because they are two different. Two different time periods. Uh-huh. I think that's where everybody gets mixed up.

Okay, is.

Back when Jesus first was here Adam and Eve and all that. They had their ways of doing things. How they lived their life how they worshiped God and how they did it and then that like kind of. What do you call it?

Tempered off. Uh-huh. And then it was picked up by Justice Smith and was done again. But not necessarily the same way they did. Okay, I could see where you're saying that there's two different ways of like.

Sure, yeah religions. Because they're taught two different ways.

Two different time period. How would you reconcile the teaching that? Of Isaiah versus Joseph Smith where Isaiah says no God's before none after he doesn't know of one and Joseph says God's before God's after you can become one.

What what like time period wise when we're talking about an everlasting God. How do you reconcile those no matter what time you're in like either? There's one God none before none after or not.

Right.

You're talking about Elohim. You're talking about Elohim. Made everything the father. Heavenly father, okay. Did he exact did he have to was he wants a man that was exalted to where he's at now as well.

If you were taught that he just appear you were taught that okay. He didn't come from somebody. You didn't come from somewhere. It's just okay. Yeah, I've heard different Teachings on that from different generations.

That's where it starts is where he appeared. He made the earth seven days.

So forth what doesn't it teach doesn't your church teach that he sent Jesus and Michael to organize the earth. Just Jesus. Yes, I'd check that. I'm pretty certain but I don't have a but you might just check on your own.

I think it says yeah. But that's neither here nor there. I mean Yeah, but how do you reconcile that? I'm curious. I'll be quiet I'll just listen that like I don't see how the time period thing Would change an unchanging eternal God from him being the only one not knowing any others To there being others that he suddenly knows about you can become one yourself one day.

That it's hard to answer.

Sure.

Yeah.

Trying to think and believe it or not, I'm not sitting here on a sidewalk trying to stump you. I genuinely care about you guys. Your guys are curious.

I.

Did I'll even go a step further. I think I know what your religion teaches and that that's why I'm here because I Just got to be straight. I want to be honest because I think it's wrong and I think that it can't save you and because I love you I want better.

I want better for you guys, and I think that this organization Doesn't present this just frankly this organization teaches a different God and a different Jesus and a different gospel than the Bible.

And.

The Bible is true insofar as it's translated correctly even according to the Articles of Faith. If that's true Then what they teach about the Godhead and the gospel Can't also be true at the same time.

And so rather than pushing you on the street corner for an answer I just I care about you. I would love you to just search those things out. Yeah, look at the scriptures. There's a comparison in there of what your different prophets and apostles of Spock and we wrote this before I still have a problem with their term Mormon.

I know some people do but we mean nothing by it. Compare it and just see what God says see what the Bible says and just genuinely ask yourself before him. How can both of these claims be true?

And.

Then I would say look at Ephesians to look at Galatians and ask yourself. Is that the gospel? That you're believing this this one that talks about the Jesus who was before all things that created everything and that all of your position for all of eternity is Determined by his grace and his grace alone and that while you're she should do good works.

They don't actually avail you a Different status as far as exaltation and do it. Does that make sense? So that's that's my hope for you, man. My name was Eric. What was yours? Jonathan. Yeah, I appreciate it man.

If you had any questions for me, I'd be willing to answer him. I've been giving you my own speech out here for a while. Yeah, I appreciate it man. So you've been out here two months then. On mission. Two weeks you said two weeks dude, that's crazy man.

So where is your area gonna be? Is there one spot or is it just wherever they need you to serve?

I do different service sites so different like buildings and locations. Okay, so I do a couple food banks couple places.

Are those all part of the church and banks or they don't go to like other places.

I.

Don't know what they're called here, but like a four square or whatever type of food bank, that's just general. How you liking it. So are you able to then? Stay home still. That's cool, man. That's cool.

I know and yeah, that would be the hardest part I think about going on mission. It's different now. But it used to be that the guys they only got a call on I think Mother's Day and like Christmas. Is it now that it's every weekend or do they just whenever.

Just whenever that yeah, that would be better man that I would be better. That almost might seem like it might be a little worse to. Like you can't ever really fully immerse yourself into what you I don't know man.

Yeah, I'd rather be able to talk whenever to my loved ones, but yeah, that's different man. So anyways, cool, man. That's why we're out here man. And here's that one's specifically about Bible versus Mormonism.

This is just a gospel tract and what if we were to say? Hey if we're gonna find an atheist on the street, we'd give him the white one and say here man. Here's what you need to know. And if you go go to the black one and you go man, I can't reconcile this I'd refer you to the white one and that's us that against scripture.

So cool. Hey, thank you, man. Be safe, dude. Thank you.