Is the "white church" really this bad? - Response to 9Marks Article

Hi, my name is Adam Robles, and I wanted to do a video today responding to an article that was published by Nine Marks. I like Nine Marks. It's a good blog in general. But unfortunately, this particular article I don't think is very helpful.

And it's on the issue of white supremacy and race in the church. And the reason why I wanted to do this video is because the pastor who wrote the article, I think he was a pastor at the time, but I'm not 100 sure.

He's a pastor now, but in the beginning, he prays and he hopes that this leads to a graceful and authentic conversation. And so I hope this will be graceful. I hope this will be authentic. And there are a few themes in the points that he makes that I have an issue with.

And so I want to go through some of the points that he has. There's a bunch of them, but there's only a few that I want to cover. But really, look, you know, white evangelicalism, white supremacy, white church, these are terms that are being thrown around a lot, right?

And they're so often not even defined. And because the definitions are kind of vague, lots of people, white people in particular, look at these things as an attack almost. And I don't think that they should necessarily always look at, you know, someone talking about the white church or the white evangelicalism as an attack.

I don't think that's always what's intended. But sometimes it does certainly seem to me as a non-white as an attack. And so I want to talk about some of these points because there's some accusations made in this article that are pretty outrageous and not really backed up by evidence.

And so I would hope that, you know, Isaac, if you ever watch this video, that you would take this in a gracious way. And hopefully, you know, we can, you know, move this conversation forward by maybe changing up some of the things that some of the tactics that you use in this article.

Defining What a White Church Means

So let's switch to the screen here. Here's the article. Isaac Adams, why white churches are hard for black people. And again, the question is, what is a white church? White church is not a biblical definition, right?

So in the Bible, it talks about one church. And in that church, there are different ethnicities. That's definitely in the Bible. So every tribe, every tongue, every nation, but it's one church. It's not ever divided in this way.

So the question is, what is a white church? Is it a church with a white pastor? I don't know. Is it a church with majority white people? I don't know. I don't think it is because there's a few things in this article that kind of hint that that's not the case.

So what is a white church? I don't know. I have two suspicions. I think one thing it could be is any church that's not explicitly ethnic. So if it's not a black church or an Asian church or a Hispanic church, then it's a white church.

That could be one of the things. Or another thing I think is potentially even more probable is a white church is just any church in a suburban culture. But again, these are just ideas. I don't know because it's not defined in the article.

So Isaac, one thing I would do, and I hope you don't mind if I speak directly to you. One thing I would do is define my terms a lot better so that it would lead, I mean, if you define this term, it would lead to a lot more understanding, I think.

So that's where I wanted to start. So let's just talk about this. So he's going to list a few of these, and I'm going to skip some of them, but I'm going to go through most of them or some of them. And he talks about a couple of reasons why white churches are hard for black people.

Claims About Racism, Privilege, and Ignoring Real Issues

So let's start right here. White churches are hard for black people because many white brothers and sisters don't work against, must less acknowledge racism, whether subtle or blatant. Meanwhile, the world readily admits that white supremacy resounds today and that subtle racism skulks in ways more difficult to discern.

Let's just start here. I don't think that this is true at all because white brothers and sisters, wherever they acknowledge racism, they work against it, right? So they work against racism where they acknowledge it.

The issue at hand is that in our culture today, and including in the secular culture, which I think is what he's referring to here when he says the world, there are lots of things that people call racist, that a lot of white brothers and sisters, and not just white brothers and sisters, Hispanics and black brothers as well, would say that they aren't actually racist.

So there's this idea that there's this white supremacist structure that is everywhere and pervasive, and lots of people just don't agree. So why would they work against something that they don't even agree is actually there?

So I think it's a little bit unfair to say that white brothers and sisters don't work against racism. No, they do. They just don't agree that it's everywhere where a lot of people say it is. I also find it weird that he wants to say, well, even the secular world admits this.

That's a weird point to make in a Christian article. The secular world says a lot of things that aren't true. And not only that, but I could just as easily turn this around and say, well, yeah, lots of even secular people deny that there's this rampant white supremacy and racism everywhere.

Because lots of secular white people do deny it. So things like that don't really advance the conversation at all. Let's continue here. White churches are hard for black people because lots of white people have privileges blacks don't.

I mean, really? What privileges do white people have in white churches that black people don't? Here's one thing he points out. Whites have privileges to ignore issues that haunt and hurt black people, issues which black people cannot ignore.

That's the that's the accusation. And again, I don't think this is fair. Do white people ignore issues that they think are really issues? No, no. White people don't ignore issues that they think are really issues.

You know, one perfect example is abortion, right? The abortion issue hurts blacks and brown people more, you know, at a higher rate than white people. And white evangelicalism does not ignore that issue.

Right, because they see it as an issue. But what I think Isaac is saying here is that they ignore the issues that they don't think are issues. And why wouldn't they if if they don't think that there's a rampant white supremacist structure in the United States?

Why would they spend time worrying about it? Right, so again, like this kind of assumes a lot. It assumes that there's there's assumes that that all of the issues that black people care about are all real.

I'm not saying that they that none of them are real. I'm just saying that, you know, white churches, I guess, if we're going to use that term. They care about the issues that they that they think are are real issues, right?

And also, I don't think it's uncommon for for white people to care about issues that affect white people more than than other issues. I think that's just human nature, right? Because, you know, I care about all kinds of different issues.

You know, I, I see, you know, violence in the Middle East, and I care about that. I want to stand against it. But if you look at where I spend most of my time planning and plotting and working against injustice, it's with things that are close to me.

And that doesn't mean I ignore those issues, but I don't do a whole lot about it. So I don't do a whole lot about the violence in the Middle East, because I can't, there's nothing I can do about it. It's so far away from me.

But the issues that affect me personally, and my family, I spend a lot more time worrying about and thinking about. So and, you know, and you just go out of the circles, right? So I spent a lot of time worrying about my family, I spend a good amount of time worrying about my church and my community.

I spend a little bit less time worrying about my nation, I spend much less time. So as you kind of go out and the things that are less, you know, impacting you, it's just human nature to spend less time worried about them.

So, you know, you can call it a privilege, I guess, but black people have that privilege too, right? I mean, black people can ignore issues that affect white people more than them. I don't know. I just, I don't, I'm not really sure, you know, what the, what the point is here.

Gospel Unity, Tokenism, and Colorblindness

I'm going to skip a few of these. Let's move on here. Here we go. This is, this one I wanted to talk about for sure. So I'm going to read this whole section here. White churches are hard for black people because gospel unity ain't always gospel unity.

Some whites assume that befriending someone who is culturally the same yet physically different is necessarily gospel unity. Sometimes that's true depending on the circumstances. Other times there's a selection bias for the sake of tokenism, not Calvary.

Thus goes the defense, I have a black friend. White churches are hard for black people because blacks are often only seen as the other. Black people still fight to be embraced as people who bear the same image of God as our white brothers and sisters.

Some whites, excuse me, speak of their churches becoming multi-ethnic once other ethnicities come. But acting as if your church has no ethnicity or is ethnically neutral makes blacks feel that your church isn't for them.

Vanilla is the flavor of ice cream like the others. Many people try to fix this by being colorblind, which they equate to racial reconciliation. They think that they're ministering by not seeing the brother so-and-so as their black friend, but only as their friend.

But that ignores realities that are both God-ordained and good. You can read more about colorblindness here. I have to be honest, Isaac, I feel bad for white people sometimes. I really do. Because they're put in impossible situations, right?

Impossible. And I think, Isaac, you've unfortunately done that here. Because on the one hand, you say here that sometimes white people have black friends just so that they can say they have a black friend.

There's a tokenism going on there. And then in the next paragraph, you say if sometimes white people only want to talk about their friend, not their black friend, ignoring their God-ordained ethnicity, and that's bad.

So their colorblindness is bad, but at the same time, tokenism is bad. And I just, how, I'm struggling to respond to this. How do you know when you're taken as a friend of a white person, I guess you could say it that way, I don't really understand.

These are terms I don't even think of in, but when you have a black friend, how do they know that you're doing it just to have a token black friend? Right? Or on the other hand, when they address you as just their friend, but not their black friend, like, how do you know that they're ignoring your ethnicity?

They're not acknowledging it. Like, I just can't imagine going through life thinking in this way. Like, I've had, you know, I had an Asian friend once. I've only had like one or two in college. And when I think about my Asian friend, I don't think about, the first thing I don't think about is how Asian he was, right?

Obviously, I'm not stupid. When I think of him in my head, I see an Asian man and I see my friend, right? And I know that he's Asian. I don't ignore that. But at the same time, I'm not thinking about his Asian-ness.

I'm thinking about the fun that we had together and the things we did and all these things. I just, I don't understand this, this obsession with the ethnicity of your friends. And I feel bad for white people because it's like, okay, so what are they supposed to do?

Supposed to talk about their black friend or not? Because these two paragraphs are very contradictory. If they say I have a black friend, then that's tokenism and that's wrong. If they just say that you're my friend and not my black friend, then you're ignoring and not acknowledging my ethnicity.

Like, what is a white person supposed to do? I just don't get it. I just don't get it. And I just don't get why Christians are thinking in these terms, right? Because I have friends of all different colors and I acknowledge their ethnicity.

I don't, you know, I don't think about it obsessively, but I just don't see, again, I just don't think in these terms. And then as far as colorblindness, that's another thing. Like, white people only say they're colorblind because it's a shorthand of saying I don't judge you based on your ethnicity, right?

They only say that so that it's a shorthand for saying I'm not racist. Of course they see that your skin is black or brown or Asian or whatever. They see it and it's not that they're ignoring it and it's not that they're not affirming it, but they want people to know they're not racist because they're constantly called racist.

I just, again, this, I feel bad for white people, man. I do. Because you're kind of messed up whichever way you go. Say you have a black friend, say you don't have a black friend. I don't know. What is it supposed to do?

And that's another thing about this article. There's all these complaints and these accusations, but there's no solutions. I don't know. Anyway, this one got me. White churches are hard for black people because the hall of faith seems whitewashed.

Augustine, Black Preachers, and Persecution Language

And then the example he uses, Isaac uses, is so interesting. The theological historical narrative passed on in white churches and white seminaries often only speaks of white theologians and heroes of the faith.

Can we please remember that Augustine was from Africa and spoke of pervasive depravity long before Calvin? Wow. Just wow. I don't understand. First of all, what is a white seminary? I don't know. I mean, I know white seminaries existed in the past where they didn't let black people in and that was wrong and that was racist.

But what are those seminaries now? Can you point me to one white seminary that doesn't allow black people anymore? And if you can, I will denounce it. But the example is so interesting, right? Can we please remember that Augustine was from Africa and spoke of a pervasive depravity long before Calvin?

Everybody knows that Augustine was from Africa. And that's not true. Not everybody knows that, but nobody hides it. I remember the first time I learned about Augustine, I knew he was from North Africa and it didn't matter to me.

You know what I mean? Like the people who don't know that Augustine was from Africa, do you really think that if they did, they'd be like, ah, yeah, but I can't learn from a non-white. Nobody's hiding the fact that Augustine was from Africa.

I mean, and if they are, give me a specific example. Because I knew about Augustine from very early on in my conversion. And I also knew that he was from Africa. And I also knew that he came up with a lot of, you know, the foundations of Calvinism long time before Calvin.

So, I mean, I guess maybe I didn't go to a white church. I don't know. But I have a hard time thinking that people are hiding the fact that Augustine is from Africa and they're whitewashing that. I just, I just don't understand.

He also continues, he says, he says, can we please hear of faithful black preachers in history and hear them quoted in sermons too? Man, Isaac, do you go through a sermon when you listen to a sermon wondering who, what the ethnicity is of the people that he's quoting?

Brother, I think you're focusing on the wrong things if that's what you're doing. I may have heard hundreds of black preachers and I would never know it because when I'm, when I hear the quotes, I don't think about what the ethnicity is of the pastor of the, sorry, the preacher who made the quote.

I don't think about that. I don't think hardly anybody thinks about that. Why are you thinking about that? Why does that matter? What matters is the quote and how it applies to the text and how it might apply to your life, right?

So, you know, maybe there's no black preachers being quoted. I've heard black preachers being quoted. I mean, because I know them, right? Like I've heard Vaughty Bauckham quoted and I know he's black.

It doesn't matter to me. I don't know. It just, it just, I don't even, I can't even put myself in that mindset. I just don't get it. And maybe I have privilege. I don't know. I mean, is there a Hispanic privilege, a Puerto Rican privilege?

I don't know. Can we please say the American church has not been persecuted when the black church has known extreme persecution, Charleston and arson being the most recent exhibitions? I think this is just a mistake of terms, right?

Because most people, when they think of church persecution, Christian persecution, they think about a systematic, you know, policy of oppressing the Christian church because they're Christians. They don't just think about random violence because Charleston was violent and awful.

And, um, but was it persecution? I mean, I don't know. It just seemed like one guy that wanted to kill black people, evil, evil, but is it persecution? I don't, I'm not sure. I mean, it depends on how you define persecution, but that just seems kind of like a weird thing to say.

Black Women, Dating, and Being Lonely in Church

This is the, this, this next one is the reason why I wanted to do this video. White churches are hard for black people because black sisters are seen as second class. Wow. What an accusation in white churches, black sisters are seen as second class.

That is quite an accusation. And that would need some serious evidence before I would accept it. And that's a biblical principle, by the way, I'm not accepting any charges against an elder or against a church unless there's witnesses, right?

That just a standard for evidence. And here's his example, Isaac. This is brother. This is, this is, this is a weird example. Here's his example. Perhaps no one has passed over more than black sisters in white churches.

They're rarely asked out on dates. If ever brothers have told them just not attracted to black women. And as a result, they felt ugly. And this makes me sad, man. It really does. Because, you know, if I was the pastor of one of these black ladies and she told me that she felt ugly because no, you know, no white people ask her out on dates, man.

I would feel, I would, I would, I would feel for her, man. Because she's got her self-worth and her value all twisted up, all twisted up. Because you don't have value and you're not beautiful because white people like you.

You have value because you're made in the image of God. You're, you have value because Christ died for your sins. That's why you're beautiful. That's why you're, you have worth. That's why you have value.

And you need to internalize that because if I don't doubt that black sisters have felt ugly because of this reason, I don't doubt it, you know, but they shouldn't. They shouldn't. And, you know, to say that this is an example of black sisters seen as second class, man.

I'm sorry. This is, this is, this doesn't make sense. Remember I asked, uh, remember I asked a black girl out on a date once and, you know, I thought she was very pretty. I thought she was very nice. We got along great.

And she told me, no, you know, she said, no, very nice about it. And I didn't ask questions as to why, but I'm pretty sure. I mean, I looked at her Facebook. I saw her dating history and I'm pretty sure she said no, because I wasn't black.

I think she only dated black people. Now, was that sister telling me that I was second class? No, not at all. Not at all. She just didn't want to date me. I never, it never even crossed my mind that she was saying by not saying no to my offer of a date that she was saying I was second class or that I was ugly.

Never crossed my mind. So, you know, this is a sad thing, man. Like if black sisters are feeling ugly because of this, that sucks. But man, that's a theological problem. That's a spiritual problem. That's not these white guys problem.

Because this makes it seem like if you're not attracted to black women, then you're racist. That's just not the case. That's just not the case. I can't tell people who to be attracted to. I just can't.

And so, you know, I feel sad about this to hear this. But I don't think it proves what, you know, Pastor Isaac thinks it proves. Because this right here is quite an accusation. And I don't accept it. I don't accept it until I have evidence of it.

Show me a white church that treats black sisters like second class citizens and I will condemn that church. And I will take them to the scriptures and show them why it's wrong. But this situation, that's not it.

So, you know, that's the reason why I wanted to do it. Now, this one was the most interesting. White churches are hard for black people because it's easy to be black and lonely in a white church. Some whites assume black people in white churches aren't lonely if there are other black people with whom they hang out.

But even if there's a ton of black people, one can still feel very lonely. Wow, again, this is similar to the most recent one we just did. There's a problem here. And as a pastor, if this was going on in my church, I'd be happy to know that this is a problem so that we can do something about it.

But as the author says, he's talking about being black and lonely in a church that has tons of black people. So, first of all, is that even a white church? I don't know because he hasn't defined it. But it sounds to me like it's not the fact that it's a white church's problem that this black man is having.

Because he's saying in this article, there's tons of black people in church and he still feels lonely. Brother, I felt lonely in a church before. I have. I felt lonely in a church before. A church full of people.

I felt lonely. But the problem wasn't because it was a white church. The problem was with me. I wasn't reaching out, right? People weren't reaching out to me too. But is it a racist thing? I don't know.

Because again, like, yeah, I feel for if someone feels black and lonely in a white church, whatever the white church means, that makes me sad because you shouldn't feel lonely in church. I felt lonely in church and I shouldn't have felt lonely in church.

That's a problem. We need to do something about it. But is it a racial problem? So, you know, that's the end of this. I just wanted to do that video. And I hope that it didn't come across too aggressive.

I hope it came across gracious and intending to move the conversation forward. But Isaac, again, if you watch this, you know, please hear my heart, man. I don't deny that you feel these ways. I don't deny that other people you've talked to have felt these ways before.

But I want to solve the issue, right? And I don't think that blaming the white church for all of these problems is appropriate. Maybe they might be responsible for some of them. I don't know, because you haven't really defined what a white church is.

But brother, man, there are solutions to these issues. There are biblical, theological solutions. And a lot of them start with repentance. And so, brother, thanks for writing the article. You know, I hope that this can move the conversation forward.

You know, God bless you, man. I'm praying for you. Take care.