Hebrews 2:9

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. And now with today's topic here is James white.

And we're welcome to the dividing line on a special Friday Morning, not even a Friday afternoon program. That's due to that silly thing called New Year's and all that means is that the calendar on your wall is probably out of date now, but I suppose we do need to observe, you know a few things like that and it does give you an opportunity to think about.

How you've spent your time of the past year? Think about how much time you spent over the past year. Waiting for your Windows machine to shut down. How much you could have accomplished had you had you had a Mac but anyways I'm seeing people already getting mad at me.

Anyway, we actually have a a studio audience today. Wow that was. We promised to pay them in McDonald's gift certificates and they just were walking by and we dragged him in here and and.

So that's our yeah, we stole a bunch of BOG cards and handing about that. That's right. That's.

Way we can get anybody in here. Oh Man what a professional setup we have here. I'm gonna tell you something this is this is why the networks are knocking down our door to get us on is Cuz is there a video feed today?

No, is there ever a video feed? No, there's no video feed. What is that guy who is it must be really cold, New Jersey because that's where he is and he's a little confused. So anyway before we get back to our King James only subject I wanted to actually address a text of Scripture shocking thing to do on on a Christian program, but I wanted to address a text of Scripture because I Recently I've discovered that I'm not the only person who's run into this Troy Brooks fellow.

I guess a lot of the stuff he's been writing about me He's written he wrote years ago. It's just repeating it and sending to me now because I had sort of avoided him or not avoid him just didn't know he was There in fact, I found a new there's no there's a new blog out there rich.

I bet you didn't know there's a new blog out there. It's called not James White's blog. Yes, not James White's blog what James White didn't say and It's under the about section. It says James White is Reformed Baptist.

I am an Orthodox Christian, but I was Reformed Baptist. I'm not anymore and I owe it all to James White. Thanks James. I Thought they bleed in free will how could I have made somebody. I have no idea.

I've never I don't have any idea who this person is, but that I think it's sort of Funny and in fact one of the first things you put up. I thought I'd might as well go ahead and read this. I guess I made mention sometime.

It's only been up since November, but I mentioned something about the errors in the book of Judith in the Apocrypha and It says Dr. White has argued in his debate on the Canon the so-called Deuterocanon or apocryphal books can't be scripture because of errors therein.

Well, that's one of the reasons one of many many reasons the prime example He likes to bring up is the book of Judith and the argument that. And the argument is false. Nebuchadnezzar was the king of Assyria ruling from Nineveh.

Well, that's sort of a given since Nebuchadnezzar was not the king of Assyria is a king of Babylon. And he didn't rule from Nineveh. Of course thousands of allegations of error have been leveled against the rest of the Canon to with corresponding responses.

I'm not on that level. That's like saying That Herod was emperor in Rome. You know something like that. We need only suggest various possibilities and they here are the possibilities that are suggested.

I just thought this is great. Here's a maybe there is a different king named Nebuchadnezzar. This is certainly the simplest answer. Yeah, I I run to folks named Nebuchadnezzar all the time personally.

Maybe Nebuchadnezzar conquered Assyria at some point and ruled it from Nineveh when he traveled there and and somehow not a single Word was mentioned of this in all of history. Judith was written in Hebrew, but only the Greek survives.

Maybe the translator made an error. There you go. We have no idea what the original was but that and so you had to have somehow Translate Nebuchadnezzar wrong and Nineveh wrong. Yeah, okay. And finally as a last resort one might always speculate there has been a scribal error in the manuscript history.

Which is isn't that the same as the previous one? I thought that was. Anyway, I thought I just thought wow. There's a not James White's blog and I'm awful glad when you present that kind of documentation.

It is not James White's blog. Thank you very much. But anyhow I'm not sure exactly how we got on that. Oh, yes, Troy Brooks I guess he's been writing against me for a long long time and I just Haven't ever noticed him and so he's been sending me stuff and finally, you know, I kept saying well, mr Brooks, we have a webcast you can call in.

No, you have to call me. Oh okay, so mr. Brooks says I'm not a Christian and but to discuss this publicly I would have to invite him on the program by calling him and You know that would actually sort of like suggest that he has something unique or unusual to say or something.

You know along those lines, but it's not really the case. So since he won't call then then he won't be on the program and I kept explaining to him from the beginning well the reason I'd invite you to call a program is I Don't have any interest in going back over all this stuff with you since you won't read my books and I've addressed all stuff Before I don't have any interest in having a private email war with you.

I don't have time to it's not important. But if you come on the program Then other people can hear it and that's what makes it worthwhile. See is then you can have you know a dialogue or at least try to have a dialogue and that's important and that's useful and so well.

Eventually, you know, he just wouldn't catch that part wouldn't hear that part. So, you know, he's kept sending me these missives and eventually I just had to say to him No, thank you. Not interested.

If you're not good call, you know, here's the number which call fine. But I'm just not interested in this but he just keeps coming. And so finally I say sir I'm putting you in my filter list and your your emails will go into a folder that I have in my email program called notes from nuts and And Stop, you know cease-desist.

Well, I'm gonna do the same thing to you and blah blah blah blah. So evidently we're not good to be on the program. But at one point there were there were two things I noticed that I want to address briefly well somewhat briefly on the program day one was just the Throwing out as many many people do of Hebrews 2 9 as if it is in and of itself a fundamental refutation of Reformed theology and so I'd like to look at Hebrews chapter 2 and Then he made reference to something.

I have wanted to respond to for a long time I have I have I know that on William Lane Craig's website there is an email from an atheist named Darren and I've seen a number of times. I've probably had sent to me three or four times approximately and I Have wanted to respond to it's just been there's lots of stuff.

I'd like to respond to there's just only so many hours in a day and and So on and so forth. So I'd like to at least look at that briefly as well before you get back to the King James only thing I realize that this has a potentiality of my not even getting back to the King James.

I think but will we will try to be self-controlled and brief Hebrews 2 9, but we see him Speaking of Jesus, and of course the context is not all things are yet subject to him. But they will be subject to him.

But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels namely Jesus crowned with glory and honor Because of the suffering of death so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Now just in passing really really fast. You should be aware of the fact that Bart Ehrman loves to Talk about this particular There the whole idea of the grace of God here in Hebrews 2 9. There's another one in Hebrews 5 textual variant stuff.

Just be aware of that might come up in less than three weeks less than three weeks, which is shocking to me. Less than three weeks in Florida. But I'm gonna try to leave that all over to the side for now and just deal with the common as Troy Brooks describes himself.

Oh s AS Arminian once saved always saved Arminian. Which is the sound you hear is Arminius spinning his grave? Which this wonderfully inconsistent position. It was funny I was reading something he had sent to me and he He was talking about how Calvinists appeal to mystery you have to appeal to mystery.

That's a real That's a term. I use all the time. Isn't it? Yeah, not not quite but then he refers us to this this Work by William Lane Craig and you start reading through the thing William Lane Craig.

And there's this whole paragraph about appealing to mystery and he's not he's doing it. He's not not decrying it. Yes, I just love that. I guess if you're gonna be a one saved always saved Arminian Consistency isn't real real high on your your list of things to be really focused on anyways.

But the point is of course Hebrews 2 9 He might taste death for everyone there it is Jesus died for everybody there's that's that's exactly what Hebrews says and At the John 3 16 conference Hebrews 2 9 was cited a number of times just thrown out.

There was never executed of course, but it was just thrown out there and a lot of people do that and I tried to point out briefly to to mr. Brooks Said well, you know, it might be good if you read the whole section because Once again, we have to ask the question.

So you're saying that the writer of Hebrews is saying That the term translated everyone here in Hebrews chapter 2 verse 9, which is the Greek term Pantos Paz Paz upon The standard word and it's it who pair is is the standard preposition for a substitution it's all right there.

So this clearly means that by the grace of God Jesus has tasted death on behalf of every single human being. All right, you need to be able to Consistently read that through the context. I mean that's going to be the con that's going to be the argument of context, right?

And you also might want to Consider as well. Is my interpretation such that it? Maybe teaches something like Oh universalism, maybe Am I am I you know, maybe? Missing the point here because if you read the rest of the section There is this Consistent contextual reference to a particular group and Let's see what it's a particular group is Hebrews 2 10 for it was fitting that he For whom and by whom all things exist in bringing many sons to glory.

Was my can't be many sons to glory. It needs to be and bring everyone to glory because we just established it in 2 9 Paz Paz upon their Pantos means Everyone every every single human being so maybe it's textual variant here because it shouldn't say Bring many sons to glory, but bring everyone to glory many sons is a limited term.

So it can't mean that because that would be a specific group. Bringing many sons to glory should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering. Okay, whoever this group is this many sons.

They are the saved. Because they have that's the founder of their salvation. So Hmm so that whoever this group is this Pantos is The founder of the salvation was made perfectly suffering. That's Jesus and they are sons many sons who are brought to glory.

That's what verse 10 says. Let's let's see if there's anything more for he who sanctifies and Those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not a shame to call them brothers. Hmm. So now we have a group that is sanctified.

Is there a consistent discussion of those who are sanctified in the book of Hebrews? Well, there is like in chapter 10 by his death. He perfects those who are being sanctified. Hmm seems to be the same group.

So whoever they are, they're perfected so if 2 -9 means every single human being then they're all perfected and this is a perfect absolutely unquestionable Universalistic text it's there's just no there's no way around the fact that this is a text that teaches universalism.

Everybody's going to be saved. They've got salvation. They're brought to glory. They're sanctified. Hebrews chapter 10 says those are being sanctified. They they're perfected. Um doesn't seem any way around this the either either got to be a you know universalist or Maybe see that there's a specific group involved here that are called the brothers of the Lord.

Saying Hebrews 212 I will tell of your name to my brothers in the midst of the congregation. I will sing your praise. So there is a specific group here in view and again, I'll put my trust in him and again behold the children God has given me.

Is there any biblical concept of God giving a particular people? To Christ there is there is isn't there that would seem to fit with Hebrews 10 and Hebrews 8 and the New Covenant and might even fit with John 6 and giving a particular people to Christ for Salvation isn't isn't that interesting since therefore the children seeming be the children who are who are Their founder the founder of their salvation is Jesus share in flesh and blood he himself likewise particular the same things that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death that is the devil and Deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery well again.

Seems to me the only two possible ways of understanding this text is either to be a universalist to believe that Everyone is going to be delivered. Everyone fears death, right? And so everyone is subject to lifelong slavery.

Well, no slavery that hmm, that doesn't fit real well with The idea of free will but anyway all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. And it says all of them. So you've either got a specific group here that have been given by God to the Son and they by the Spirit of God come To understand their their lifelong slavery and so on so forth or you're universalist.

Those are the only two possibilities I can see here. The Arminian view just doesn't isn't doing real well here. For surely it is not angels that he helps but he helps the offspring of Abraham. Well the offspring of Abraham does that mean we're only talking about all Jews here.

Or is this the Christian concept as enunciated by the Apostle Paul? That's those who are the offspring of Abraham or those who what are of the faith of Abraham believe as Abraham Believed therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect so that he might become a what? Merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God to do what?

To make propitiation for the sins of the people. Hmm. Here's that high priest concept again. And that takes us right into the discussion of the high priest and who he intercedes for and the high priest always intercedes only for Those for whom he's made the sacrifice.

So If you're gonna take this if you're gonna take to nine the way that it was taken at the John 316 conference You can take the way Troy Brooks Drake's takes it then you have to believe that Jesus is interceding for those who are in hell today or will be.

But there is a consistent way of reading Hebrews 2 that flows right into the argument right through all of Hebrews and It just requires you to recognize that Hebrews 2 9 has a specific group in mind. That is the all that is being spoken of there and the only other option is pure universalism.

Which is of course? extremely contradictory to the testimony of Scripture so when you hear People just throwing these texts out just just quoting them and saying hey there it is. You might want to ask him could could we read that in context could we could we see if how you're reading that Actually flows into the context in any meaningful Fashion and we'll see what goes from there now again.

I said I wanted to likewise just briefly also respond to the citation of a well, it's question number 79 at at reasonable faith org that's William Lane Craig's Reasonable faith with William Lane Craig is the title at the top of the page.

Question 79 Mullen ism in Romans 9 now those of you who do not know what Mullen ism is Mullen ism is a Jesuit philosophy part of the counter-reformation. It is an unbiblical philosophy. That is it is its derivation is not from the study of Scripture its derivation is from the desire on the part of the Jesuits to oppose the Proclamation of the freedom of God in salvation that was part of reformed theology.

It has pretty much been abandoned by everybody on the Roman side of the Tiber River but is now championed by William Lane Craig and others and Troy Brooks also is real into Mullen ism, which I found really funny because You know, he's a Dave Hunt fan as well and you know, they always like to say well, you know Look what Calvin did to surveyed us.

So his theology must be all wrong, but we don't mind promoting Jesuits. I Just love the level of consistency you get out of some folks anyway. There is question 79 Is from a fellow by the name of Darren and it starts off saying I'm an atheist currently reading reasonable faith.

And he writes to him and he talks a little bit about a few things. But number two the second point is the main point. Here's what the atheist says in Romans 9. Paul describes Jacob and Esau as being judged as loved and hated or loved less Before they did any good or evil.

Paul then goes on to liken all of this All of us as clay molded by a potter and says that this is not the will of he who runs. But if he who shows mercy which saves us Paul relates God telling Pharaoh for this purpose I raised you up and then discusses an idea that the vessels God made for common use are There only for the purpose of showing his patience to his more special pots.

Many reformed think this passage shows double pronestination Unconditional election and I am forced to agree with him as is as is Christ himself in John 665 the Reformed God and listen to this this is an atheist speaking the Reformed God is something I view as tyrannical and unworthy of worship and indeed, it is tough for someone outside the faith to respond to the Calvinist interpretation of Romans 9 with anything but hatred as.

The prominent Reformed scholar James White describes this very chapter quote. I understand that the only way one can believe this is by an act of grace end quote. In My view this defeats your position of Molinism since one cannot freely choose God in his own in a potential setting without God's prior help.

Furthermore the context the related story in John 6 has disciples abandoning Christ prompting what he says in 665 and Proving that Christ is not offered as a free gift to all. What is left for the freedom of man to choose Christ given these passages?

Thank you graciously for your time Darren now We then have dr. Craig's response and Let me give you what he says second. Let's talk about Paul's doctrine of election Romans 9. I want to share with you a perspective on Paul's teaching that I think you'll find very illuminating and encouraging.

Now wait a minute. We're talking to an atheist. Let's let's before we even read what he says here. Should we at all be shocked That an atheist finds the presentation the biblical God disturbing. We're talking about a creature who is busily involved in rebellion against his creator.

We're talking about someone who is described in Romans chapter 1 as expending effort to suppress the knowledge of God on a daily basis and So is it at all? Shocking that he would find the view of God found in the Bible not just in Romans 9.

But I can multiply the Romans 9 passages about God's absolute sovereign freedom especially from the Old Testament over and over and over again is It shocking that Atheists would find this offensive. I Have told the story many times of a woman who came to our offices back, and we were on 16th Street many many years ago and she had called and she needed to interview a Fundamentalist.

And I truly felt like I was under glass or something like that, you know, oh, here's the specimen now, man. Be careful. It spits and. And so she comes in and she's she's Roman Catholic from the Keno Institute and She needs to interview a fundamentalist.

Well, okay, and so she asks some standard questions as I recall about what I believe about the Bible and things like that. I turned the conversation eventually to the gospel and to who God was and to grace and Eventually presented to her the freedom of God and salvation and she was shocked absolutely shocked that I actually believe that God's the one who determines who he's going to be gracious to and who he's Going to be just to in the sense of just meeting out there deserving punishment.

And She was just shocked and I remember she said to me I would never worship a God like that and I said, of course unless God changes your heart by his grace, that's exactly what I'd expect you to say and she was she just didn't had no response and you know wrapped up the interview very early very very quickly after that because I think that just scared her and.

So I you know, it concerns me on one level but does not surprise me at all. That so many evangelicals are like, oh Well, we need to. I mean, I don't I don't want to say anything. It's gonna offend Darren.

He's an atheist who do you want to be more concerned about offending a creature denying his creator or your creator. No one seems to be concerned whatsoever about whether God is offended by what we think about his truth.

I Mean put yourself. Let me give you an illustration what if you're a parent and You have a young kid say second third grade and they've been given an assignment where they're gonna have to stand in front of the class and they're gonna have to talk about what you do and What you've done to get to your your point in life at that point you're at in life see and so you you take the time to explain your history and and your education what you've done and things like that and You you Decide you'd like to hear this and so you have your your your child take an mp3 recorder so you'd like to hear how this goes, you know what the comments are and So your your child gets up there And starts talking but you can tell there's something wrong and Maybe it's because you don't make as much money as other people do and as other parents do and yeah.

Who knows what the reasons are, but you can tell that child is absolutely embarrassed. To have to talk about you and who you are and what you do. You would be mortified you would be crushed by such an experience.

But Christians for some reason never seem to think twice about the fact that we have God's truth and God has revealed certain things about himself and yet we are so stinking concerned about what creatures think.

That we will back off and we'll go. I Don't want to talk about that because there might be some people who are well, they might be offended. They might be offended that God in his his justice has brought his wrath to bear upon sinners.

I mean There's all this stuff in the Old Testament about you know, wiping out all these people. I Just I just don't know what to say. I Guess you forgot that they were the people who offered their children and sacrifice to Mullick.

I guess you forgot they were deserving of the wrath they received and so are you. My we are so concerned about how people feel. But we don't give a care about how God feels about his glory his honor the honor of his word his gospel.

It is amazing how upside down our society can cause us to be Absolutely upside down and so we go home. You said something that offended Darren. Well, if it was God's truth, well Hallelujah, I'm glad I did.

I only spoke his truth. I don't think there's any reason for me to get in the way and offend somebody unnecessarily. I'm not talking like Peter Ruckman. Okay but when the very simple claims of God and God's freedom are offensive to people who are rebellion against God.

That's a good thing. That means you're actually speaking the truth of God with enough clarity that they understand it. You know, the scary thing is there's a bunch of people who have massive platforms and they speak to thousands of people.

But they're so scared to speak the gospel with clarity that people listen to them all the time and they never get offended. Because they're not speaking clear enough for anybody to understand what they're saying.

If you can proclaim quote-unquote proclaim your gospel and the Darren's the world are not offended. Buddy, you got a problem. You got a problem and it's a big one. So I haven't even gotten to reading what William Lane Craig has say yet, but we'll get to it right after this break.

We'll right back.

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You heard an ancient commercial a very ancient commercial therefore is the more of my brother. Which is back in print now. We just got ours in in shipped in and very thankful to everybody who worked on getting that back in print and I think Either this morning or the morning before that I put up a video on the same subject where I responded to a one of the Mormon Apostles Apostle Holland in his presentation his testimony of how Mormonism is Christian, but unfortunately So few people today even have the slightest idea of the vast differences on a foundational level Between what Mormons say and mean and what Christians say and mean and it is amazing to me having begun witnessing to them in the early 1980s.

To see how many evangelicals today and I there are certain people especially responsible for this. But how many evangelicals today? Can look at a polytheistic religion and say well, you know, we just need to try to get him to be a little less polytheistic.

I'm believable I'm sort of glad that people like Dr. Mao were not around when I first started studying Mormonism. I really been but have been very very confused as a result of things like that but that is available now at a omin org and if you know of anybody who is confused there's about a hundred pages of documentation from LDS sources from official LDS sources including a discussion of how you determine what's an official LDS source In in the book on the subject of the LDS doctrine of God, so that's really the foundational issue and I would Recommend it to you.

We've got two folks on hold. So I need to pick up the pace here so I can get to them. Let me just try to summarize some of the things that Are said here by William Lane Craig. You can read it. Like I said, it's a reasonable faith org.

Just go to the questions and answers. It's number 79. You can read it for yourself. I'm not trying to hide anything basically. Let me just give you the Summary here. This is explosive teaching. Paul begins chapter 9 by expressing his profound sorrow that ethnic Jews have missed God's salvation by rejecting their Messiah.

But he says it's not as though God's Word had failed rather as we have already seen not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel and not all the children of Abraham because they are his descendants.

Being ethnic ethnically Jewish is not enough rather one must be a child of promise and that as we've seen may include Gentiles. May include Gentiles and exclude Jews. He's exactly right about that. By the way, that is missed by most people.

That is the key this is what what Paul is is Discussing is no God's Word has not failed. The problematic then this doesn't make any sense the problematic then with which Paul is wrestling. Yes. It's the problematic With which Paul is wrestling is how God's chosen people of Jews could fail to obtain the promise of salvation while Gentiles who are regarded By Jews is unclean and execrable could find salvation instead.

Paul's answer is that God is sovereign. He can save whomever he wants and no one can gain say God. He has the freedom to have mercy upon whomever he wills even upon the Gentiles and no one can complain of injustice on God's part.

And you might go. Well, that sounds very reformed and at that point it does sound very reformed. But of course you have to try to read that through a Molinistic lens at that particular point in time. Paul's burden then in Romans 9 is not to narrow the scope of God's election, but to broaden it.

He wants to take in all who have faith in Christ Jesus regardless their ethnicity election. Then is first and foremost a corporate notion. God has chosen for himself a people a corporate entity and is up to us by our Response of faith whether or not we choose to be members of that corporate group destined salvation.

Well there you get your corporate election which of course is very common, but Utterly indefensible on any type of exegetical basis. Well juice is the select one. Well, try to try to make that work in Ephesians 1 or Romans 9.

It doesn't work. It is just a an abandonment of the text to saying well, you know, yeah, he's gotten his elect. But it's an amorphous Faceless nameless group and and we determine whether we get to be in it or not.

We've talked about the havoc that reeks with atonement and things like that and The problem that the direct object of the verbs in Ephesians 1 are people are not a group. It is very direct then. It says of course given God's total providence over the affairs of men.

This is not the whole story, but Mullen ism makes good sense of the rest. John 665 means that apart from God's grace. No one can come to God on his own. But there's no suggestion there that those who refuse to believe in Christ did not do so of their own free will.

Well, of course. They chose not to believe of their own free will because their free will is a slave. John 644 had made it very very clear. No one can come to me unless the father sent me draws him. So it is you know, these aren't answers.

These are taking a philosophical system and Using that to overthrow the text of Scripture. There's no exegesis provided here. Whatsoever says God knows in exactly what circumstances people will freely respond to his grace and places people in circumstances in which each one Receives sufficient grace of salvation if only that person will avail himself of it.

Now I'm on I wonder how this works. This would be an interesting question in Mullen ism. God knows exactly what a free creature will do given certain circumstances. So does God put everybody in a position where he would know that they would accept him?

That means that there are certain certain that what keeps someone from accepting Christ is the circumstances in which God places them. There's a lot of problems with this system. There are oh, it doesn't work folks.