Hebrews 2:9

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

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If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 973 460 to or toll -free across the

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United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

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James White Thank you. Welcome to the dividing line on a special Friday Morning, not even a

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Friday afternoon program That's due to that silly thing called New Year's and all that means is that the calendar on your wall is probably out of date now, but I Suppose we do need to observe, you know a few things like that and it does give you an opportunity to think about How you've spent your time of the past year?

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Think about how much time you spent over the past year waiting for your Windows machine to shut down How much you could have accomplished had you had you had a

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Mac but anyways I'm Seeing people already getting mad at me.

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Anyway, we actually have a studio audience today Wow We promised to pay them in McDonald's gift certificates and they just were walking by and we dragged him in here and and So that's our yeah, we stole a bunch of BOG cards or anything about that.

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That's right Way we can get anybody in here. Oh Man what a professional setup we have here.

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I'm gonna tell you something this is this is why the networks are knocking down our door to get us on is

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Cuz is there a video feed today? No, is there ever a video feed? No, there's no video feed

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What is that guy who is it must be really cold, New Jersey because that's where he is and he's a little confused So anyway before we get back to our

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King James only subject I wanted to actually address a text of Scripture shocking thing to do on on a

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Christian program, but I wanted to address a text of Scripture because I Recently I've discovered that I'm not the only person who's run into this

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Troy Brooks fellow I guess a lot of the stuff he's been writing about me He's written he wrote years ago

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It's just repeating it and sending it to me now because I had sort of avoided him or not avoid him Just didn't know he was there.

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In fact, I found a new there's no there's a new blog out there rich I bet you didn't know there's a new blog out there It's called not

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James White's blog Yes, not James White's blog what James White didn't say and It's under the about section

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It says James White is Reformed Baptist. I am an Orthodox Christian, but I was

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Reformed Baptist I'm not anymore and I owe it all to James White. Thanks James. I Thought they bleed in free will how could

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I have made somebody and I have no idea I've never I don't have any idea who this person is, but add that I think it's sort of Funny and in fact one of the first things put up as I'd might as well go ahead and read this

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I guess I made mention sometime. It's only been up since November, but I Mentioned something about the errors in the book of Judith in the

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Apocrypha and It says Dr.

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White has argued in his debate on the Canon the so -called Deuterocan or apocryphal books can't be scripture because of errors therein

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Well, that's one of the reasons one of many many reasons the prime example He likes to bring up is the book of Judith and the argument that And the argument is false

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Nebuchadnezzar was the king of Assyria ruling from Nineveh Well, that's sort of a given since Nebuchadnezzar was not the king of Assyria is a king of Babylon and he didn't rule from Nineveh Of course thousands of allegations of error have been leveled against the rest of the

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Canon to with corresponding responses Not on that level That's like saying

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That Herod was emperor in Rome Something like that We need only suggest various possibilities and they here are the possibilities that are suggested

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I just thought this is great Here's a maybe there is a different king named

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Nebuchadnezzar. This is certainly the simplest answer Yeah, I I run to folks named

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Nebuchadnezzar all the time personally Maybe Nebuchadnezzar conquered Assyria at some point and ruled it from Nineveh when he traveled there and and somehow not a single

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Word was mentioned of this in all of history Judith was written in Hebrew, but only the

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Greek survives. Maybe the translator made an error There you go. We have no idea what the original was but that and so you had to have somehow

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Translate Nebuchadnezzar wrong and Nineveh wrong. Yeah, okay And finally as a last resort one might always speculate there has been a scribal error in the manuscript history

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Which is isn't that the same as the previous one? I thought that was Anyway, I thought

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I just thought wow, there's a not James White's blog and I'm awful glad when you present that kind of Documentation it is not

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James White's blog. Thank you very much. But anyhow I'm not sure exactly how we got on that.

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Oh, yes, Troy Brooks. I guess he's been writing against me for a long long time And I just haven't ever noticed him.

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And so he's been sending me stuff and finally, you know, I kept saying well, mr Brooks, we have a webcast you can call in.

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No, you have to call me. Oh okay, so mr. Brooks says I'm not a Christian and but to discuss this publicly

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I would have to invite him on the program by calling him and You know that would actually sort of like suggest that he has something unique or unusual to say or something

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You know along those lines, but it's not really the case So since he won't call then then he won't be on the program and I kept explained to him from the beginning well the reason

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I'd invite you to call a program is I Don't have any interest in going back over all this stuff with you since you won't read my books and I've addressed all stuff before I don't have any interest in having a private email war with you.

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I don't have time to it's not important But if you come on the program Then other people can hear it and that's what makes it worthwhile

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See is then you can have you know a dialogue or at least try to have a dialogue and that's important and that's useful and so well

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Eventually, you know, he just wouldn't catch that part wouldn't hear that part So, you know, he's kept sending me these missives and eventually

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I just had to say to him No, thank you. Not interested. If you're not good call, you know, here's the number but your call fine

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But I'm just not interested in this but he just keeps coming. And so finally I say sir I'm putting you in my filter list and your your emails will go into a folder that I have in my email program called notes from nuts and And Stop, you know cease -desist.

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Well, I'm gonna do the same thing to you and blah blah blah blah So evidently we're not good to be on the program But at one point there were there were two things

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I noticed that I want to address briefly well, some are briefly on the program day one was just the

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Throwing out as many many people do of Hebrews 2 9 as if it is in and of itself a fundamental refutation of Reformed theology, and so I'd like to look at Hebrews chapter 2 and Then he made reference to something.

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I have wanted to respond to for a long time I have I have I know that on William Lane Craig's website there is an email from an atheist named

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Darren and I've seen a number of times. I've probably had sent to me three or four times approximately and I Have wanted to respond to it's just been there's lots of stuff.

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I'd like to respond to there's just only so many hours in a day and and So on and so forth So I'd like to at least look at that briefly as well before you get back to the

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King James only thing I realize that this has a potentiality of my not even getting back to the King James. I think but will we will try to be self -controlled and brief

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Hebrews 2 9, but we see him Speaking of Jesus and of course the context is not all things are yet subject to him

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But they will be subject to him But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels namely

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Jesus crowned with glory and honor Because of the suffering of death so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone

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Now just in passing really really fast. You should be aware of the fact that Bart Ehrman loves to Talk about this particular

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There the whole idea of the grace of God here in Hebrews 2 9 There's another one in Hebrews 5 textual variant stuff

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Just be aware of that might come up in less than three weeks less than three weeks, which is shocking to me

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Less than three weeks in Florida But I'm gonna try to leave that all over to the side for now and just deal with the common as Troy Brooks describes himself

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OS AS Arminian one saved always saved Arminian Which is the sound you hear is

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Arminia spinning his grave? Which this wonderfully inconsistent position

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It was funny I was reading something he had sent to me and he He was talking about how

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Calvinists appeal to mystery you have to appeal to mystery. That's a real That's a term. I use all the time.

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Isn't it? Yeah, I'm not not quite but then he refers us to this this

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Work by William Lane Craig and you start reading through the thing William Lane Craig And there's this whole paragraph about appealing to mystery and he's not he's doing it.

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He's not not decrying it Yes, I just love that I guess if you're gonna be a one saved always saved Arminian Consistency isn't real real high on your your list of things to be really focused on anyways

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But the point is of course Hebrews 2 9 He might taste death for everyone there it is

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Jesus died for everybody there's that's that's exactly what Hebrews says and The John 3 16 conference

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Hebrews 2 9 was cited a number of times just thrown out there was never executed of course, but it was just thrown out there and A lot of people do that and I tried to point out briefly to to mr.

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Brooks Said well, you know, it might be good if you read the whole section because Once again, we have to ask the question.

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So you're saying that the writer of Hebrews is saying That the term translated everyone here in Hebrews chapter 2 verse 9, which is the

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Greek term Pantos Paz Paz upon The standard word and it's who pair is is the standard preposition for a substitution.

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It's all right there So this clearly means that by the grace of God Jesus has tasted death on behalf of every single human being all right, you need to be able to Consistently read that through the context.

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I mean that's going to be the con that's going to be the argument of context, right? and you also might want to Consider as well

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Is my interpretation such that it? Maybe teaches something like Oh universalism, maybe

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Am I am I you know, maybe? Missing the point here because if you read the rest of the section there is this

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Consistent contextual reference to a particular group and let's see what it's a particular group is

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Hebrews 2 10 for it was fitting that he For whom and by whom all things exist in bringing many sons to glory

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Would my can't be many sons to glory it needs to be and bring everyone to glory because we just established it in 2 9

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Pass pass upon there upon us means Everyone every every single human being so maybe it's textual variant here because it shouldn't say

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Bring many sons to glory, but bring everyone to glory many sons is a limited term

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So it can't mean that because that would be a specific group Bringing many sons to glory should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering

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Okay, whoever this group is this many sons they are the saved Because they have that's the founder of their salvation

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So hmm so that whoever this group is this Pontos The founder of the salvation was made perfectly suffering.

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That's Jesus and they are sons many sons who are brought to glory That's what verse 10 says.

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Let's let's see if there's anything more For he who sanctifies and Those who are sanctified all have one source.

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That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers Hmm. So now we have a group that is sanctified

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Is there a consistent discussion of those who are sanctified in the book of Hebrews? Well, there is like in chapter 10 by his death.

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He perfects those who are being sanctified Hmm seems to be the same group

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So whoever they are, they're perfected. So if 2 -9 means every single human being then they're all perfected and this is a perfect absolutely unquestionable

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Universalistic text it's there's just no there's no way around the fact that this is a text that teaches universalism

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Everybody's going to be saved. They've got salvation. They're brought to glory They're sanctified

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Hebrews chapter 10 says those are being sanctified. They they're perfected Doesn't seem any way around this the either either got to be a you know universalist or Maybe see that there's a specific group involved here that are called the brothers of the

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Lord Saying Hebrews 212 I will tell of your name to my brothers in the midst of the congregation.

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I will sing your praise So there is a specific group here in view and again,

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I'll put my trust in him and again behold the children God has given me. Is there any biblical concept of God giving a particular people?

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to Christ there is there is isn't there that would seem to fit with Hebrews 10 and Hebrews 8 and the

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New Covenant and might even fit with John 6 and giving a particular people to Christ for Salvation isn't isn't that interesting since therefore the children

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Seeming be the children who are who are Their founder the founder of their salvation is

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Jesus share in flesh and blood he himself likewise particular the same things that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death that is the devil and Deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery well again

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Seems to me the only two possible ways of understanding this text is either to be a universalist to believe that Everyone is going to be delivered everyone fears death right and So everyone is subject to lifelong slavery.

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Well, who's slavery that? hmm, that doesn't fit real well with The idea of free will but anyway all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery

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And it says all of them So you've either got a specific group here that have been given by God to the

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Son and they by the Spirit of God come to understand their their lifelong slavery and so on so forth or your

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Universalist those the only two possibilities I can see here the Arminian view just doesn't isn't doing real well here

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For surely it is not Angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham Well the offspring of Abraham does that mean we're only talking about all

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Jews here Or is this the Christian concept as enunciated by the Apostle Paul?

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That's those who are the offspring of Abraham are those who what are of the faith of Abraham believe as Abraham Believed therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect so that he might become a what?

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Merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God to do what?

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to make propitiation for the sins of the people Hmm Here's that high priest concept again

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And that takes us right into the discussion of the high priest and who he intercedes for and the high priest always intercedes only for Those for whom he's made the sacrifice

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So if you're gonna take this if you're gonna take to nine the way that it was taken at the John 316 conference

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You can take the way Troy Brooks strikes takes it then you have to believe that Jesus is interceding for those who are in hell today or will be

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But there is a consistent way of reading Hebrews 2 that flows right into the argument right through all of Hebrews and It just requires you to recognize that Hebrews 2 9 has a specific group in mind

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That is the all that is being spoken of there and the only other option is pure universalism

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Which is of course? extremely contradictory to the testimony of Scripture so when you hear

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People just throwing these texts out just just quoting them and saying hey there it is

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You might want to ask him could could we read that in context could we could we see if how you're reading that Actually flows into the context in any meaningful

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Fashion and we'll see what goes from there now again. I said

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I wanted to likewise just briefly also respond to the citation of a well, it's question number 79 at at reasonable faith org that's

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William Lane Craig's Reasonable faith with William Lane Craig is the title at the top of the page

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Question 79 Mullen ism in Romans 9 now those of you who do not know what Mullen ism is

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Mullen ism is a Jesuit philosophy part of the counter -reformation It is an unbiblical philosophy.

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That is it is its derivation is not from the study of Scripture its derivation is from the desire on the part of the

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Jesuits to oppose the Proclamation of the freedom of God in salvation that was part of reformed theology

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It has pretty much been abandoned by everybody on the Roman side of the Tiber River but is now championed by William Lane Craig and others and Troy Brooks also is real into Mullen ism which

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I found really funny because You know, he's a

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Dave Hunt fan as well and you know, they always like to say well, you know Look what Calvin did to surveyed us.

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So his theology must be all wrong, but we don't mind promoting Jesuits. I Just love the level of consistency you get out of some folks anyway

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There is question 79 Is from a fellow by the name of Darren and it starts off saying

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I'm an atheist currently reading reasonable faith And he writes to him and he talks a little bit about a few things

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But number two the second point is the main point. Here's what the atheist says in Romans 9

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Paul describes Jacob and Esau as being judged as loved and hated or loved less

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Before they did any good or evil Paul then goes on to liken all of this All of us as clay molded by a potter and says that this is not the will of he who runs

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But if he who shows mercy which saves us Paul relates God telling Pharaoh for this purpose I raised you up and then discusses an idea that the vessels

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God made for common use are There only for the purpose of showing his patience to his more special pots many reformed think this passage shows double pronestination unconditional election and I am forced to agree with him as is as is

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Christ himself in John 665 the Reformed God and listen to this this is an atheist speaking the

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Reformed God is something I view as tyrannical and unworthy of worship and Indeed, it is tough for someone outside the faith to respond to the

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Calvinist interpretation of Romans 9 with anything but hatred as The prominent Reformed scholar James White describes this very chapter quote

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I understand that the only way one can believe this is by an act of grace end quote in My view this defeats your position of Molin ism since one cannot freely choose

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God in his own in a potential setting without God's prior Help furthermore the context the related story in John 6 has disciples abandoning

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Christ Prompting what he says in 665 and proving that Christ is not offered as a free gift to all

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What is left for the freedom of man to choose Christ given these passages? Thank you graciously for your time

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Darren now We then have dr. Craig's response and Let me give you what he says second.

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Let's talk about Paul's doctrine of election Romans 9 I want to share with you a perspective on Paul's teaching that I think you'll find very illuminating and encouraging now wait a minute

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We're talking to an atheist. Let's let's before we even read what he says here Should we at all be shocked

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That an atheist finds the presentation the biblical God disturbing We're talking about a creature who is busily involved in rebellion against his creator

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We're talking about someone who is described in Romans chapter 1 as expending effort to suppress the knowledge of God on a daily basis and So is it at all?

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Shocking that he would find the view of God found in the Bible not just in Romans 9

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But I can multiply the Romans 9 passages about God's absolute sovereign freedom especially from the

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Old Testament over and over and over again is It shocking that Atheists would find this offensive

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I Have told the story many times of a woman who came to our offices back, and we were on 16th

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Street many many years ago and she had called and she needed to interview a

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Fundamentalist And I truly felt like I was under glass or something like that, you know, oh, here's the specimen now, man.

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Be careful. It spits and And so she comes in and she's she's

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Roman Catholic from the Keno Institute and She needs to interview a fundamentalist

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Okay, and so she asks some standard questions as I recall about what I believe about the

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Bible and things like that. I turned the conversation eventually to the gospel and to who

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God was and to grace and Eventually presented to her the freedom of God and salvation and she was shocked absolutely shocked that I actually believe that God's the one who determines who he's going to be gracious to and who he's

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Going to be just to in the sense of just meeting out there deserving punishment And She was just shocked and I remember she said to me

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I would never worship a God like that and I said, of course unless God changes your heart by his grace, that's exactly what

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I'd expect you to say and she was she just didn't had no response and you know wrapped up the interview very early very very quickly after that because I think that just scared her and So I you know, it concerns me on one level but does not surprise me at all

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That so many evangelicals are like, oh Well, we need to I mean,

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I don't I don't want to say anything. It's gonna offend Darren He's an atheist

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Who do you want to be more concerned about offending a creature denying his creator or?

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your creator No one seems to be concerned whatsoever about whether God is offended by what we think about his truth.

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I Mean put yourself. Let me give you an illustration what if you're a parent and You have a young kid say second third grade and they've been given an assignment where they're gonna have stand up front of the class and they're gonna have to talk about what you do and What you've done to get to your point in life at that point you're at in life and so you you take the time to explain your history and and your education what you've done and things like that and You you

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Decide you'd like to hear this and so you have your your your child take an mp3 recorder so you'd like to hear how this goes, you know what the comments are and So your your child gets up there

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Starts talking but you can tell there's something wrong And Maybe it's because you don't make as much money as other people do and as other parents do and yeah

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Who knows what the reasons are, but you can tell that child is absolutely embarrassed

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To have to talk about you and who you are and what you do

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You would be mortified you would be crushed by such an experience

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But Christians for some reason never seem to think twice about the fact that we have

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God's truth and God has revealed certain things about himself and yet we are so stinking concerned about what creatures think

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That we will back off and we'll go I Don't want to talk about that because there might be some people who are well, they might be offended

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They might be offended that God in his his justice has brought his wrath to bear upon sinners.

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I mean There's all this stuff in the Old Testament about you know, wiping out all these people.

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I Just I just don't know what to say. I Guess you forgot that they were the people who offered their children and sacrifice to Mullick I guess you forgot they were deserving of the wrath they received and so are you

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My we are so concerned about how people feel But we don't give a care about how

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God feels about his glory his honor the honor of his word his gospel

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It is amazing how upside down our society can cause us to be absolutely upside down And so we go, oh

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You said something that offended Darren Well, if it was God's truth, well

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Hallelujah, I'm glad I did. I only spoke his truth I don't think there's any reason for me to get in the way and offend somebody unnecessarily.

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I'm not talking like Peter Ruckman. Okay but when the very simple claims of God and God's freedom are offensive to people who are rebelling against God That's a good thing.

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That means you're actually speaking the truth of God with enough clarity that they understand it You know, the scary thing is there's a bunch of people who have massive platforms and they speak to thousands of people

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But they're so scared to speak the gospel with clarity that people listen to them all the time and they never get offended

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Because they're not speaking clear enough for anybody to understand what they're saying If you can proclaim quote -unquote proclaim your gospel and the

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Darren's the world are not offended Buddy, you got a problem You got a problem and it's a big one

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So I haven't even gotten to reading what William Lane Craig has to say yet, but we'll get to it right after this break.

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We'll right back True Is the

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Mormon my brother Bethany House Publishers presents James White's book is the Mormon my brother in television campaigns parachurch events and clergy fellowships all across the

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United States Mormons are presenting themselves as mainstream Christians. Is it unloving or backward to say they aren't real

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Christians in contrast to Christian monotheism the belief in one God Mormonism teaches that God was once a man who lived on another planet and was exalted to the status of God and That Mormon men can also become gods upon death and resurrection

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In his book is the Mormon my brother James White demonstrates how this fact alone means

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Mormons and Christians are Irreconcilably at odds at faith's most basic level is the

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Mormon My brother is now available from Alpha and Omega ministries book ministry. You can order is the

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Mormon my brother from our website at www .aomin .org

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The history of the Christian Church pivots on the doctrine of justification by faith Once the core of the

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Reformation the church today often ignores or misunderstands this foundational doctrine in his book the

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God who justifies theologian James White calls believers to a fresh appreciation of Understanding of and dedication to the great doctrine of justification and then provides an exegesis of the key scripture texts on this theme

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Justification is the heart of the gospel in today's culture where tolerance is the new absolute

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James White proclaims with passion the truth and centrality of the doctrine of justification by faith

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Dr. J. Adams says I lost sleep over this book. I simply couldn't put it down James White writes the way an exegetically and theologically oriented pastor appreciates.

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This is no book for casual reading There is solid meat throughout an outstanding contribution in every sense of the words

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The God who justifies by dr. James White get your copy today at a omen org

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Hello everyone, this is Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program

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The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every

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Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha -Omega ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses

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Man is sinful and God is holy That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior?

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We are to come before the Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Alpha -Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well

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Support Alpha -Omega ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.

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Thank you You heard an ancient commercial a very ancient commercial therefore is the morning my brother

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Which is back in print now. We just got ours in in shipped in and very thankful to everybody who worked on getting that back in print and I think

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Either this morning or the morning before that I put up a video on the same subject where I responded to a one of the

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Mormon Apostles Apostle Holland in his presentation his testimony of how

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Mormonism is Christian, but unfortunately So few people today even have the slightest idea of the vast differences on a foundational level

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Between what Mormons say and mean and what Christians say and mean and it is amazing to me having begun witnessing to them in the early 1980s

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To see how many evangelicals today and I there are certain people especially responsible for this

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But how many evangelicals today? Can look at a polytheistic religion and say well, you know, we just need to try to get him to be a little less polytheistic

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I'm believable I'm sort of glad that people like Dr.

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Mao were not around when I first started studying Mormonism I really been but have been very very confused as a result of things like that but that is available now at a omin org and if you know of anybody who is confused there's about a hundred pages of documentation from LDS sources from official

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LDS sources including a discussion of how you determine what's an official LDS source In in the book on the subject of the

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LDS doctrine of God, so that's really the foundational issue and I would Recommend it to you.

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We've got two folks on hold. So I need to pick up the pace here so I can get to them Let me just try to summarize some of the things that Are said here by William Lane Craig.

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You can read it. Like I said, it's a reasonable faith org Just go to the questions and answers. It's number 79. You can read it for yourself.

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I'm not trying to hide anything basically Let me just give you the

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Summary here This is explosive teaching Paul begins chapter 9 by expressing his profound sorrow that ethnic

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Jews have missed God's salvation by rejecting their Messiah But he says it's not as though God's Word had failed rather as we've already seen not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel and not all the children of Abraham because they are his descendants

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Being ethnic ethnically Jewish is not enough rather one must be a child of promise and that as we've seen may include

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Gentiles May include Gentiles and exclude Jews. He's exactly right about that. By the way, that is missed by most people.

36:03

That is the key this is what what Paul is is Discussing is no

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God's Word has not failed The problematic then this doesn't make any sense the problematic then with which

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Paul is wrestling. Yes. It's the problematic With which Paul is wrestling is how God's chosen people of Jews could fail to obtain the promise of salvation while Gentiles Who are regarded by Jews as unclean and execrable could find salvation instead

36:30

Paul's answer is that God is sovereign He can save whomever he wants and no one can gain say God He has the freedom to have mercy upon whomever he wills even upon the

36:38

Gentiles and no one can complain of injustice on God's part And you might go.

36:44

Well, that sounds very reformed and at that point it does sound very reformed But of course you have to try to read that through a

36:49

Molinistic lens at that particular point in time Paul's burden then in Romans 9 is not to narrow the scope of God's election, but to broaden it

36:58

He wants to take in all who have faith in Christ Jesus regardless their ethnicity election Then is first and foremost a corporate notion

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God has chosen for himself a people a corporate entity and is up to us by our

37:10

Response of faith whether or not we choose to be members of that corporate group destined salvation Well there you get your corporate election which of course is very common, but Utterly indefensible on any type of exegetical basis.

37:25

Well, Jesus is the select one Well, try to try to make that work in Ephesians 1 or Romans 9 It doesn't work.

37:31

It is just a an abandonment of the text to saying well, you know, yeah, he's gotten his elect But it's an amorphous

37:38

Faceless nameless group and and we determine whether we get to be in it or not We've talked about the havoc that reeks with atonement and things like that and The problem that the direct object of the verbs in Ephesians 1 are people are not a group.

37:54

It is very direct then It says of course given God's total providence over the affairs of men

38:00

This is not the whole story, but Mullen ism makes good sense of the rest John 665 means that apart from God's grace.

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No one can come to God on his own But there's no suggestion there that those who refuse to believe in Christ did not do so of their own free will well, of course

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They chose not to believe of their own free will because their free will is a slave John 644 had made it very very clear.

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No one can come to me unless the Father sent me draws him So it is you know, these aren't answers.

38:32

These are taking a philosophical system and Using that to overthrow the text of Scripture. There's no exegesis provided here

38:40

Whatsoever says God knows and exactly what circumstances people will freely respond to his grace and places people in circumstances in which each one

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Receives sufficient grace of salvation if only that person will avail himself of it Now I'm on I wonder how this works.

38:54

This would be an interesting question in Mullen ism God knows exactly what a free creature will do given certain circumstances

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So does God put everybody in a position where he would know that they would accept him? That means that there are certain certain that what keeps someone from accepting

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Christ is the circumstances in which God places them There's a lot of problems with this system.

39:15

There are oh, it doesn't work folks It's the main problem is it's not derived from the exegesis of Scripture It is a philosophical system forced on the text of Scripture, but there are all sorts of problems.

39:27

I mean if you have the elect Then are these the only ones that God puts these free creatures in the circumstances where they'll embrace him

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But he doesn't put other people in those circumstances or is he put everybody in those circumstances, but only some people do

39:41

But I thought God knew exactly what we do in any given circumstances I'm sorry. That's what happens when you try to get around the plain teaching of the

39:48

Bible. It doesn't work very well But the main thing I wanted to address there was I've had a number of people send us to music.

39:55

So you offended an atheist. Yeah, you know, I've done that a lot and You know what? There are times on Sunday morning.

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I offend Christians that's a good thing because that's what the gospel does and If you've gotten to the point where the gospel no longer offends you

40:10

You better pray that God's gonna wake you up because that's not a good place to be eight seven seven seven five three three three four one

40:18

Arlen has been waiting quite some time. Let's talk to Arlen. Hi Arlen Hello, dr.

40:23

White. This is Atlanteans from the channel. Yes, sir Yes, by the way, the thief returned the car.

40:29

Yes, so I've heard yeah Weird weird weird night. Hey, um, so I had a quick question about the

40:38

KJV only position I was actually raised on the KJV only Bible and appreciate it.

40:44

So it's style But what's the KJV only Bible? Yes, you did yeah, just just want to clarify that so The KJV only

40:57

I guess I don't know My thoughts are kind of jumbled

41:05

I'm curious how the KJV only position developed if there if it has any any specific line of Thought that actually is traceable or or just where it came from.

41:21

Yeah Yeah, interestingly enough those who have studied the subject have traced it back to the seventh -day

41:27

Adventists actually and It really isn't all that old.

41:33

I I don't think you can trace it much earlier I mean, there are certain people obviously who defended the the

41:41

Byzantine text over against Westcott and Hort people like Burgan others but they were not in any way shape or form

41:47

King James only the people who claim them and say that they were just Obviously, I haven't read enough of them to see that they weren't but as far as serious

41:56

King James only ism It really starts developing as a part of the fundamentalist movement so you're talking, you know 20s 30s 40s the roots of these things and I know

42:09

I was actually dealing with this as a pretty young fella in the 1980s as a

42:15

Bible school student Because my parents came back from being down I think it was in Tennessee as I recall and they're talking about how many church splits they had encountered

42:24

Because of King James only ism down there and and I was just then learning Greek and stuff And so I even had correspondence with David Otis Fuller of the which

42:33

Bible Society Which I don't know even exists anymore. He passed away which which

42:40

Which Bible Society wh I CH not WIT CH which Bible Society and he had a number of books out and and we had

42:49

Corresponded and stuff like that and I was back in the 1980s. And so It's a fairly new movement as far as that goes relatively speaking and it really was connected

43:00

I think with with the fundamentalist movement and the the bent of that movement to become somewhat insulated to see anything that's new as bad and therefore you had

43:13

That type of now again every time I say something about fundamentalism in a negative sense My fundamentalist brothers right and say hey, we're not all like that I know that some of the best critics of King James only ism are those who would call themselves fundamentalists with a capital

43:29

F and I remember I defended fundamentalism on the KFY radio with Bob Mohan Many many moons ago, man.

43:37

He looked at me like I was Oh, he just disgusting type situation, but anyway

43:46

It's it's a it's a fairly New movement and not everybody in fundamentalism obviously fell into it anything like that There are many good scholarly fundamentalists who have opposed it as well

43:56

But a lot of them have traced it back specifically in its modern form to a seventh -day Adventist writer whose name just escapes me

44:03

Off top my head right now. Okay, okay One and then one follow -up. Is it mainly existing?

44:09

I've only seen it in Baptist groups. Is that no? No, no It did it you'll have charismatic assemblies of God Presbyterians, yep.

44:19

Yep Now there's now most of Presbyterians I have encountered some

44:25

King James only Presbyterians. I remember one fellow bright fellow great reformed fellow But when it came to the text of King James, he even defended acts 530 as being accurately translating the

44:35

King James. It just isn't and but most Most the time at that point back

44:41

Edward F Hills was Presbyterian and He would be representative of a more of a

44:47

TR only type perspective Though the the line is often blurred.

44:53

So I've What shocked me after I started writing about Gail Rippling her back in the 90s was

44:59

I got I got a letter from Uganda Where her stuff had gone and they're actually from Uganda in Africa Went there

45:09

Well, I've got a letter from people in Uganda and they were asking for help because her stuff had gone there

45:15

And so there are actually people in the churches in Uganda saying that they needed to learn English to use the

45:21

King James version of the Bible is the only Bible and all the rest of them were corrupted and blah blah Blah, so it it goes all over the place.

45:27

It is it is an amazing thing. Okay. Okay. All right. Thanks. Thank you very much All right. Thanks for calling. Bye. Bye Let's talk with Dave.

45:35

Hi Dave Hey, how you doing doing pretty good. I just had a quick question

45:42

Mostly related to what the West Jones was talking about. I have a friend of mine We were having a brief discussion over Christmas dinner actually with regard to sexual criticism thing.

45:50

Are you on it? Are you on a speakerphone Dave? Okay, it's just cutting out a little bit but That's all right, we can understand you go ahead

46:07

Majority text favored and Disputed some of the reliability of some of the

46:12

Alexandria manuscripts like Codex Sinaiticus Has the trash can believe and I talked a little bit about this door

46:17

But one thing that he mentioned that I hadn't really heard before is how some of these texts tend to be dated I know in st.

46:23

Louis you talked about the style of the script was one way that you said that you have some of the

46:29

Impressions, but the main way they use to determine the age of the text of the paper style is the age of the paper So if you could talk about that a little bit well obviously if if there is something specific about the writing material that can be dated maybe the

46:44

Context in which it's found for example Sometimes you will find a codex that the

46:50

Christians Adopted the codex form in the first 500 years 80 % of all

46:55

Christian books are in codex Form while only 20 % of secular books are in codex form during that same time period so they really

47:02

Adopted it as their own and sometimes you can find in the binding they would use

47:10

Like old letters or stuff in the binding and those letters might be dated So you can sort of might be able to figure things out from that But paleography is primarily especially in regards to the ancient manuscripts something like the papyri manuscripts

47:23

Paleography is based upon writing style Not upon so much the material itself, and so that's why there is a range of dates

47:32

You can look at p75 p66 and the range of dates is like 152 200 because that particular kind of writing style you compare papyri with other pie.

47:43

We've got lots of papyri to compare and especially when you can find like business documents that are dated you can see the handwriting style and that you can compare it with the papyri and Figure out from there, so it's primarily an examination of scribal habits not the actual material that it was written on unless you have those exceptions where Like pieces of paper have been used of papyri been used in part of the binding or something like that Not really, but you would find a discussion of it in Well a lot of books

48:19

Greenlee's book comforts book that fact I think even there might be a discussion that in the textual commentary. We have that we offer through the bookstore as well

48:28

Alrighty Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one let's get to one more

48:36

You might be able to get a few minutes of the program in here, but let's know there's another phone ringing Let's talk with James.

48:42

Hi James Hello, dr. White, how are you doing good good? I had a quick question about the sovereignty of God in relation to the fall and Adam and Eve and How do you understand?

48:57

You know all of that did did Adam and Eve have free will did God foreordain that they would fall

49:03

I just like to kind of get your thoughts on that. Yeah. Well, obviously it's a very major subject and I am always reminded of Jonathan Edwards attempts to fully plumb the subject and come to conclusions and even a fan of his as great as John Gerstner concluded that the great the mind the great mind from Northampton eventually fell into the pit of internal self -contradiction and really made a mess out of things because The fact the matter is we don't have any biblical revelation concerning the nature of Adam's will we have exactly two chapters in the

49:43

Bible That's come before the fall and there is almost nothing to be derived from that revelation that would give us any meaningful basis upon which to discuss the nature of Adam prior to the fall we can say that he did not have sin, but anything else beyond that is pure speculation and When people try to go beyond what

50:07

God has given to us in Scripture at that point that's all you can do is come up with pure speculation and Some have spent a great deal of time on that a lot of our minions.

50:18

I know of love to Assume certain things about Adam and then overthrow everything that we know about man since Adam That is the fallen state of man given that there are no

50:29

Adams any longer That may be one of the reasons that God does not deem it necessary to Give us a revelation of something.

50:36

We could not really in our experience begin to understand Anyway, maybe we will be able to understand that in eternity

50:42

I don't know as to the reality of the fall. I don't think that any meaningful theist can avoid

50:51

Either falling into open theism and saying that God knew his possibility, but he sure was surprised when happened

50:56

That's exactly what open theists do say in regards to the fall of Adam, but even those who say well, you know

51:05

God created the potentiality for evil Well, either he created something that he knew was gonna happen or he didn't know it was gonna happen

51:12

And so anybody who says well God created in such a way that that Adam fell freely, but God knew it was gonna happen well then

51:20

God better have had a purpose in that and He would have to have a purpose and everything that came from that and and so classical theism has always at least

51:28

Christian Theism has always recognized that that fall is a part of God's purpose is a part of his sovereign decree

51:37

That doesn't mean that he forces Adam to fall and that's where we don't see how that we don't understand how that can work because We don't have any

51:43

Adams we can look at today We don't have a biblical revelation as to how that works because we know how we work and we know of our propensity for evil

51:51

But what about someone who doesn't have a propensity for evil? How can that be? you know, how can you put the two of them together and Every answer is again.

52:01

Simply speculative. All you can do is recognize that Everything that God says that he has purposed eternally to do in Jesus Christ involves

52:13

Christ's incarnation death and resurrection the union of a people to him, etc, etc

52:18

And all of that has to do with the forgiveness of sins. And so without that Recognition then you're left with the specter of God came up the plan of salvation after the fall.

52:33

He didn't know it was going to happen You're really you're really stuck with a an open theistic perspective at that point To try to make sense of anything and you just can't make sense of the

52:41

Bible from an open open theistic perspective. So What you have to affirm is that God is holy and just his purposes are holy and just he is seeking to Glorify himself and that he will glorify himself and Toto both through the demonstration of his justice upon those who love their sin and in changing hearts and minds of those who while in love with their sin are made new creatures and turned into those who love

53:08

God and as a result of all of that God is going to be glorified in in both instances and As to the nature of Adam's will and things like that There's just I just don't think there's any way to even begin to address the subject in a meaningful fashion and do so biblically

53:25

Because God has not chosen to provide revelation on the subject And so when people assume that you need to be careful that that assumption doesn't actually become a part of Revelation itself and so on so forth.

53:39

Okay, so what would you say that it's better to just It seems that you're just saying well, it's better not to really kind of delve into well what happened there

53:48

I think well you you have to from the very beginning say well look God has not chosen to give us a book of discussion on the subject of Adam's pre -fall nature

53:59

And we have to be very careful in our assumptions concerning those things, but these are the things we can say

54:05

If we were to translate the text of Revelation the lamb slain from the foundation of the earth it might be this

54:10

It might not be translated that way There's more than there's two ways you can translate the Greek at that point but if you do,

54:16

I don't think that anyone can really argue that the cross is not in fact a part of God's eternal decree that it was

54:24

God's purpose in creation that Christ was going to enter into creation as the

54:29

Redeemer so if that is certain then the Reason for the necessity of his coming would have to be just as certain as well, and that would include the fall of Adam Okay, okay.

54:42

Well. Thank you very much for your time. I appreciate it. Thank you very much for your call. I have a good day All right real quickly with exactly three minutes not to be able to get very far here, but Let me go ahead and at least catch a little bit of the program had it queued up here on the

55:00

King James only perspective We did talk about textual criticism, but let's continue on with it here said he did

55:06

Or he said he would do Can he can he fulfill his own scriptures?

55:13

And you know you can argue Against I suppose I suppose you could argue

55:19

Against Psalm 12 6 & 7 and and so on and so forth I want to look up another verse for you guys

55:26

Just in passing Psalm 12 6 & 7 if it's talking about God preserving scriptures

55:32

And there's a lot of reason to think that it's not that is not the only way that it can properly be interpreted

55:37

But even if it does we have not in 25 minutes of listening to this program

55:44

Ever heard any attempt to make any logical connection? Between what the psalmist would have been talking about in his context and the

55:54

King James version of the Bible The only argument that's been made is well. God blessed

55:59

King James. Well. God bless the Vulgate to God bless the Greek Septuagint God bless the Hebrew but the

56:06

Vulgate and the Hebrew is Different than the old Latin which is different than the TR and as they start off saying things that are different are not the same

56:15

So the argument just simply doesn't hold real quick. Okay. Well while you're while you're looking that up Brian There was a question that came across in the chat room that I think we should answer

56:26

Okay, he he was wondering if there were first of all different forms of the KJV And he can correct me in the chat room there if I'm not asking it correctly, but then his latest question was

56:37

To say God had his hand on the KJV. Is that an assumption and I'd like you to address that real quick Brian if you would

56:44

Is that an assumption? Are you are you just a sign? It's a faith issue to a point yes

56:54

We look down and we see what God has established and preserved You know, they're

57:00

I get sick and tired of these guys, you know, like first John 5 -7, you know, they always say well that's not part of the

57:07

Greek tradition. Well, it is part of the Latin tradition, you know now Wait a minute

57:14

This is Kami Ohanian first John 5 -7 whenever I encounter somebody who is willing to go the mat on the

57:22

Kami Ohanian I know I'm talking to a hardcore King James only us because As I've said many times

57:29

It is not a universal part of the Latin tradition He later will say we don't have the old

57:34

Latin But now he'll say that it is part of the old Latin and so we would have to have it to know that etc The point is that if you can look at a foreign language

57:43

Translation and make it normative over the original language itself Then we have no idea what the

57:50

New Testament originally said What is more? There are lots of texts that have much better attestation than the

57:57

Kami Ohanian does and Yet they are not included by King James only advocates in the in the

58:03

TR or in the King James translation The inconsistencies are many and they are great and so It just doesn't it just doesn't work

58:15

In any way shape or form, but we're out of time I've talked about the Kami Ohanian many many times in the past.

58:20

At least we got a few minutes worth in there. I Had a feeling when I started off where I was that we would probably not get too far, but that's great

58:27

We had good calls. We will be back again Lord willing next Tuesday at 11 a .m.

58:33

Here on the dividing line We'll see you then The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

59:43

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59:49

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