WWUTT 945 Q&A Beth Moore vs. Owen Strachan?

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What was with that comment that Beth Moore made to Dr. Owen Strand yesterday? Is she really encouraging women to become preachers?

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And what should we think of Beth Moore's teaching? The answers to these questions and others when we understand the text.

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This is When We Understand The Text, a daily study in the word of Christ, that we may continue in faith and love and holiness with self -control.

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Tell your friends about our newly revamped website, www .utt .com, where you can find all of our videos arranged by subject.

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With today's episode, here's Pastor Gabe. Thank you, Becky. You're welcome. I was a little delayed.

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I was going to say thank you. Good deal if the word got caught there or what happened.

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So there's a couple of things we have not mentioned on the last few episodes. One of them is that our

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Facebook page has now exceeded 10 ,000 followers. Yes.

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Very exciting. And likes. I can't tell the difference on Facebook between followers and likes.

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The numbers are different, but only separated by like 100 people or something. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know the difference either.

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I'm not on Facebook. I know if you follow someone, you get their –

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I wonder if that's when you get the ones in your notifications versus just seeing it in your feed.

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Oh, maybe so. I don't know. So like and follow the page. We'll just say that. Yeah. Yes, please.

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Facebook .com slash www .uttvideos, I believe, is the address to get to the site.

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So we're over 10 ,000. And you can share the website. Yes. That's right. Share the Facebook page. Twitter, I don't even know how many followers we have on Twitter now, but that's twitter .com

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slash www .utt .com. Yes. That was not even videos.

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No .com. It's just com. That's right. Just com. And then let's see. There's something else. Oh, the extra –

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Oh, we have almost 3 ,000. Not quite. Not quite 3 ,000.

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Okay. We're at 2834 on the Twitter page. So you need to follow us on Twitter and bump us over 3 ,000.

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Then there's the YouTube channel, the new YouTube channel, which is – it just hit 500 ,000.

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Followers. Awesome. Now, I think we need 23 ,600 more followers.

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Is that all? To meet the number of followers on our original YouTube channel.

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Oh, yes. Follow us on our new YouTube channel. So, the YouTube page is youtube .com

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slash www .utt .com. The new one is youtube .com slash www .utt

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.com. Right. Just added the ext on the end of it for those longer videos.

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And I do have a couple of the longer form videos coming up here. And I'll mention what a couple of the subjects are here as we go through these questions today.

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Because this first thing that we have to get to actually involves something that blew up on Twitter yesterday.

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Oh, dear. Did you see this whole exchange between Dr. Owen Strand and Beth Moore? I briefed by it a couple of times.

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It was – It kept showing up in my feed, so I couldn't help it. It was wild. Yeah. I was not expecting this to happen at all.

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Now, this happened the same day, or just about a day after, about 12 hours after, I had posted the new what video, which was on Beth Moore.

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Right. Why Beth Moore is a false teacher and things that you need to be aware of.

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Right. So that you're not continuing her teaching in your church. You're warning other people about her.

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Right. There are some serious concerns related to Beth Moore. I'm going to play that video coming up here in just a moment.

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But first, let's review this chain of events that happened here between Beth Moore and Dr.

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Owen Strand, who is a professor over at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Kansas City.

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Right. So she's sparring on Twitter with someone who is a professor at one of the

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Southern Baptist seminaries. Right. And, of course, Beth Moore being a Southern Baptist, she is a Southern Baptist darling.

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Okay. The convention just absolutely loves Beth Moore. Oh, okay, I got it. Yeah. I was like,

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I don't understand the title. Not everybody, but a good chunk. Two -thirds, you know, easily the majority of Southern Baptists and Southern Baptist churches.

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Otherwise, she wouldn't be so big. Books being sold in Lifeway. Like, Lifeway would put all of their chips behind Beth Moore.

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That's how in control over the publishing arm of the Southern Baptist Convention, Beth Moore is.

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Fellow by the name of Cody Lieboldt, sorry, Cody, that I'm not pronouncing your last name right.

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But from Irvine, California, he chronicled these events as they took place between Dr. Owen Strand and Beth Moore.

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And so here's how Cody kind of lays this out. So I'm going to be borrowing from Cody, but Becky and I are going to interject with our own commentary as we go through this.

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All right. On May 7th, 2019, Dr. Strand published an article entitled

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Divine Order in a Chaotic Age, colon, on women preaching.

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Okay. Okay, does that make sense? Strand explained, and by the way, Dr. Owen Strand, I think has the longest last name that's just one syllable.

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Yes, I do believe you're right. It's eight letters, S -T -R -A -C -H -A -N, but I even called him on the phone and I said, how do you pronounce your last name?

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And he said, Strand. I was expecting Strachan, Strahan.

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No, it's Strand. Just one. It rhymes with man. One syllable. My first name is seven letters and that's three syllables.

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Aria has four letters. That's right. It's three syllables. Our daughter,

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Aria. So anyway, it's just Strand, just one syllable. Everybody knows now how to pronounce

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Owen Strand's name. He explained the biblical parameters for the role of men and women in marriage and in the church.

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He pointed out that scripture, and a long history of scripture interpreted rightly, has ruled out women from teaching or preaching roles that are reserved for church elders who must be men.

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We've talked about that on the broadcast many times before. A lot of questions that we get are about that, about men serving the role of eldership.

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Where can women serve in the church? We've talked about some of those things. We've done videos on it. Strand's article seemed to myth the nationally known lady preacher,

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Beth Moore, who on April 27th joked about getting the Calvinists going.

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She said that she was feeling mischievous and she would want to teach a men's Sunday school class. Now the interesting thing about this statement that she made on Twitter and the woman that she was interacting with, a woman by the name of Vicki, is that exchange is in the what video that I just made.

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So on the portion of the video where it talks about her egalitarianism, if you freeze the slide there, you'll see that exchange between her and that woman is on there.

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Because it's in that exchange that Beth Moore says she's preaching in front of her entire church. This is not just a matter of Beth Moore leading classes where only women are present.

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Right. But she's being given the pulpit on Sunday morning to stand before her entire church and preach the sermon.

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Right. At one of the campuses, it's one of the campuses of her Houston church that she attends where she regularly teaches a women's class.

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And I highly doubt it's exclusively women. But on one of their campuses, she's going to be preaching at that campus this coming

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Sunday. And they talk about that in the exchange. She said that she wanted to teach a men's

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Sunday school class just to get people riled up. That's what she said in her tweet. Then Moore affirmed another lady preacher by the name of Vicki, as I mentioned, in her choice to preach on Mother's Day.

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Or I would say her opportunity, the way that Vicki talks about it, her opportunity to preach on Mother's Day and acknowledged that she herself was planning to do the same.

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So here's what Beth said. She said that I want to teach a men's Sunday school class at a church full of Calvinist just to get everybody going.

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I'm in a tad of a mischievous mood. Vicki says this made my day.

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Yours truly, referring to herself, is preaching three services at a Southern Baptist church on Mother's Day.

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But don't tell anyone. And Beth says, I'm doing

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Mother's Day to Vicki. Let's please not tell anyone this. So they're joking about this.

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And even Beth Moore is encouraging a woman to preach to your church, define what

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Scripture says about this. And let's not tell anybody about it. Do it covertly. Let's do it discreetly.

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Don't let it be known to the general public. So let's do it. Let's defy Scripture and be dishonest about it.

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That's really what Beth Moore is encouraging there. When Owen Strand published his article, once again, the name of the article was

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Divine Order in a Chaotic Age on Women Preaching. Beth Moore responded to his article.

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Here's what she said. Owen, I am going to say this with as much respect and as much self -restraint as I can possibly muster.

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I would be terrified to be a woman you'd approve of. And I would have wasted 40 years of my life encouraging women to come to know and love

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Jesus through the study of Scripture. Now, I love Michelle Leslie's response to Mrs.

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Moore over this. She says, this is Michelle Leslie right after Beth Moore. Owen, it is a joy to aspire to be the type of woman you quote unquote approve of by aspiring to be a woman

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God approves of. Right. Which is all that matters. It's not terrifying at all.

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It's Christ centered joy and contentment that come from submitting to God's word rather than rebelling against it.

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Thank you, Owen, for standing for biblical truth. Thank you, Michelle, for being awesome.

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Yay, Michelle. All right. So now Cody goes on and says this is a significant moment for Beth to have said this, to have opened herself up this way and have responded to a man with a doctorate teaching at a

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Southern Baptist seminary. I just don't understand what she was restraining herself as much as she can muster.

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What on earth did she want to say? I know it. I'm terrified.

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It's like that was her restraint. Whoa. I would be terrified to be a woman you'd approve of.

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Whoa. Wow. That's. I wonder what Owen's wife thinks about that particular comment.

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That's quite a dog. I mean, I can't believe that she dogged on Owen like that in public.

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Yeah. I mean, as somebody who is as high profile a teacher as Beth Moore is, she didn't have like the connections.

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I mean, I've personally contacted Dr. Strand. I called Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary one time, and I just said, could you connect me with Dr.

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Strand's office, please? And they said, sure. And actually, I said, oh, and Strachan. So I think the guy who answered the phone had to decipher what

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I just said first, but apparently picked it up. I'm sure he gets that a lot. Probably so.

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Then the phone rang once. And then this other guy picks up and he says, hello.

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And I said, Dr. Strachan. And even he paused and went, yes.

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I'm like, hey, this is Gabe Hughes over in Junction City. And he knew who I was because we've had exchanges on Twitter before.

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Hey, good to hear from you, brother. So if I can pick up the phone. Right. And call

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Dr. Strand and he has no problem having a conversation with me. Even if you get his name wrong, you still get in touch with him.

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Right, exactly. I didn't even get his name right and I could talk to him. And Beth Moore couldn't pick up the phone.

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Yeah. And express that she had a problem with this article. She said what she said to get her little rabble riled up.

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Well, of course. That was why she did it. I mean, you look at the previous tweet of hers and it says that she's just feeling mischievous.

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Yeah, no joke. So, I mean, she's just looking to rile feathers and get more attention.

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Yeah, I know that sounds speculative. It's kind of like the Hollywood thing where, you know, somebody goes on a rampage about something because they don't have any movies coming out or whatever.

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Or they're trying to get attention for their movie. Or that. It could be that as well. It could be. What can I do to make headlines to make myself relevant again?

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And Beth got over, at least when I was watching the tweet, she had over 1 .2

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thousand likes just on that tweet in the span of two hours. Oh, wow. And so, man, her grouping, her little brood just jumped all over that.

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They loved it. And dropping swear words. Wow. There was several gals that somehow

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I got involved in that. But they were just, I can't repeat it. Yeah, don't.

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But in their excitement were swearing about Beth Moore. Like in excitement, not at her, but about her.

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Yeah. Unbelievable. This is the kind of grouping of women that she gathers? And this is what they're gleaning from her teaching is to behave like this?

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Okay. So growing up, I always thought that, you know, adults were just classy and they just knew how to handle each other and handle themselves.

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And it just, you grew into that of being an adult. And now

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I'm an adult and I'm like, where are the other adults? Like, seriously, where's the class at?

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Yeah. Nobody, nobody is classy anymore. Well, I can't say nobody, but the vast majority of people are not classy.

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And they don't feel like, quote unquote, adulting. I hate that.

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It's become a verb. I don't feel like adulting today. It's so frustrating because I'm looking around, looking for the other adults on Twitter and whatnot.

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And I found a handful people, a handful. And that's it.

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Like, bring it. Bring yourself up to where you are supposed to be.

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Mature. Yeah. That's a command. It's not that difficult. I mean, yes, you do have to do a little bit more self -restraining, apparently.

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Self -control. Just as you talked about at the very start of the episode. Yes, self -control. Like, more than just, oh,

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I'm going to type this out and hit send. Don't hit send. Erase it. Think about it.

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Pray about it. And erase it again. You know, we tend to be reactionary with words just flying right out of our mouth.

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But when you're sitting in front of your computer, you've got time to type it out. You have time to think. And hit enter.

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Yes. I can't tell you how many times I've erased something just because it was a little, you

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Because two minutes later, you're going, eh, this isn't the best thing to say. Yeah. After multiple auto -corrects.

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Feeling a little feisty. Yeah. That's right. All your auto -corrects slowed you down and you were able to go, eh, yeah, this may be not the best thing to say.

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And if it's not God honoring, it should not be said. What honors Christ? How are we honoring

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Christ with our words? Right? That includes typing. That includes typing. That does include typing.

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When Jesus says everybody is going to give account for every careless word they have said, that includes what you've typed on Twitter.

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It does. I saw a debate about that yesterday on Twitter about how people didn't know if that counted.

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Yeah. Does it count what we type? Yes. Yes. Yes, it does. Out of what your heart is, is what you're going to speak.

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Out of the overflow of the heart, the keyboard clacks. Yes. There we go. The mouth speaks and the keyboard clacks.

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Yes. That's absolutely true. Okay. So, anyway. Yes. Moving on here. Where did I stop? Yeah. So, Cody says this is a significant moment for Beth to have revealed her anti -complementarian position in this way.

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Right. And it's right after I had posted this what video where that's one of the problems with Beth Moore, her egalitarianism.

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This is no longer speculative. It is right out there in the open. She is making it very public.

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Cody says, if you read Owen's article, it is a description of standard complementarianism.

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Now, let's give a brief definition of complementarianism before we go on. Let's do that. God has made men and women different.

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Men for certain roles, women for certain roles. Right. But together we complement one another in our strengths and in our weaknesses so that we become a functioning unit.

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Right. Now, that is most evident in marriage. Absolutely. Husband and wife. But it's even evident in the church.

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For in Titus chapter 2, Paul gives roles to men and roles to women in the church.

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Right. And we also see that the role of elder or overseer in the church is supposed to be occupied by men and women are supposed to submit to that.

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A woman is not supposed to fill that role because she is a picture of submission the way that the church submits to Christ.

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Every woman is a picture of that in that context. The wife in particular is a picture of that because she submits to her husband as the church is to submit to Christ since the church is the bride of Christ and Christ is the bride groom.

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So, that's complementarianism. I even went a little bit longer than I meant to there. But there it is in somewhat of a nutshell.

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Right. So, it's the understanding that men and women are made different. God has given them different roles, but together they complement one another in our strengths and our weaknesses.

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Right. Even the church is supposed to be a single functioning body just as a marriage is also supposed to be a functioning unit.

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Yes. You have one head. You have one heart. You have, you know, you have your body pieces.

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And it all has a different, I mean, your head can't do what your hand can. Right. But your hand can't do what your head can.

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Right. Exactly. Exactly. So. Feet do one thing. Yeah. Arms, legs do another thing. So, that's the picture of.

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So, it all works together. Yes. That's a picture of the different parts of the body as it pertains to the church. But the different parts include men and women.

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Right. Roles given to men, roles given to women. So, there's complementarianism for you. So, in Owen's article,

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Dr. Strand's article, it is a description of standard complementarianism explaining that women are biblically instructed not to teach scripture to the public gathering of men in the church.

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When we're talking about the entire church together, families, men, women, children, all together, the person who is supposed to preside over the teaching to the flock is supposed to be a man filling that role.

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Right. Now, we can get into conversations about like whether women can be deacons, whether women can be Sunday school teachers, whether they can be evangelists.

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But the full agreement in the perspective of complementarianism is going to be that when it comes to the preaching and teaching of Christ's church in the formal gathering, the person who is leading that teaching is supposed to be a man.

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And that scripture is absolutely clear on. The whole theme of scripture even presents that.

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Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. Old Testament to new. Beth Moore is rejecting that teaching and insulting both

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Owen and the Bible that he teaches. Strangely, Moore doesn't even properly exegete

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Strand's viewpoint. She represents him as having a problem with her spending 40 years encouraging women to come to know and love

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Jesus through the study of scripture. But he has not disparaged that. He would support it. Yeah.

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Strand takes issue not with the practice of women ministering to other women, but with the practice of women teaching the corporate body of Christ.

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Beth Moore's reaction amounts to the following. She has gone on record as stating that she rejects complementarianism.

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Here's why. Beth Moore stated that she would be terrified to be a woman that Strand would approve of.

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Given the content of his article, Moore has as much as stated her rejection of complementarianism even in the broadest or most inclusive sense.

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Moreover, Beth Moore has rejected the teaching of scripture. That much is clear to anyone who has read

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First Timothy. Many have long suspected or known this much and have pointed to Beth Moore's departure from scripture in her own actions.

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But here we have it in her words. Beth Moore snapped. We knew it was coming and it happened.

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So that was the exchange as it had taken place on Twitter yesterday. He did a very good job of wrapping that up.

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Yes, Cody did a great job of wrapping that up. And I'm curious to see what we're going to hear in the future about this.

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I want to see if Dr. Jason K. Allen, who's the president of Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, might respond to this.

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Yeah. Now, I think that there is goodness in being patient to respond.

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Oh, yeah. Not a reason to have to talk about this today. But it'd still be interesting to see what some of our seminary professors and presidents might say in response to this in the weeks to come.

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Because, I mean, Beth Moore is hugely influential. Oh, yeah. To let that comment go without response would be...

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Not the wisest. That also wouldn't be wise. Right. To not say anything at all wouldn't be wise.

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Yeah. And I would like to just point out the fact that in today's world where everything is in your face constantly, it is okay to step back and not respond right away.

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And think about it and really get your feet steady underneath you before you do anything.

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Does that make sense? Yeah. Even pray about it. I mean... Right. You should pray and study and everything.

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So you are confident that you are bringing glory to God whenever you make your response. Submitting your mind to Christ.

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Yes. In everything. So it's not just off the top of your head. It's just... Or as a reaction.

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Or a reaction. Yes. Responding to a feeling or an emotion. And it's clear that Beth Moore was responding that way.

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Yeah. She was responding out of emotion. But she also teaches out of emotion. She does. And that's one of the dangers that I pointed out in my video, which

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I haven't played yet. I'll get to that here in a moment. There was a situation that happened in our church back in 2015.

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So this was about four years ago where something kind of exploded. I won't go into the details of it.

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But it was significant enough and people noticed that things were going on that they wanted an immediate response.

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Right. Tell us what's going on. And I try to get everybody to calm down and be patient. We've got our next members meeting coming up on this date.

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And that's when I'll address these things. But there were still conversations that needed to be had between people who were involved in the situation.

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Right. So we needed to be patient. And there was not a necessity to have to respond immediately to what was going on until we, even ourselves, like myself and everybody else that was involved in this thing, could get all of our ducks in a row and examine all the pieces and talk to the people that needed to be talked to.

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It's like an investigation. You have to dig a little bit and have those conversations.

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And sometimes they're hard conversations to have that take a little time. Yeah. And doing that, by the way, is loving.

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Yes. Most definitely. What's the first thing that Paul says love is in 1 Corinthians 13, 4? Love is patient.

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And we are instructed, even in Colossians chapter 3, that we are to be patient with one another.

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If one has a complaint against another, forgiving one another. As God has forgiven you, so you must also forgive.

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Now, one of the things that Cody points out a little bit later in his article, I kind of cut it off there. But Cody points out that a few days before this exchange that happened between Beth Moore and Owen Strand, Beth Moore even talked about not reacting to things and being able to take a little bit of criticism.

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And suddenly she's not able to do that. Yeah. But she can't even take instruction.

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Yeah. It has to be reacting to this and reacting to it big. I'm terrified.

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Yeah. That's pretty strong words, even with her self -restraint. Now, I liked Michelle Leslie's response.

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And going along with that, 1 John 4, verse 18 says, There is no fear in love.

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But perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment. And whoever fears has not been perfected in love.

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I would present this to Mrs. Moore. The reason why you're terrified of what it is that Dr. Strand wrote is because you realize that in your determination to preach in front of your church this coming

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Sunday or any time, because she's been egalitarian for a long time, preaching in front of all kinds of congregations of men and women.

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In her determination to defy scripture and do this, it has developed in you a fearful heart because you know you're disobeying the word of God.

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But you're suppressing the truth with unrighteousness. So that's something that must be confronted. And it's unfortunate that Beth Moore attends a church where her pastors, her elders, the men that have been placed over her to shepherd her and teach her are not coming to her about this and saying, you are disobeying

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God. Right. And you need to repent of this. So that's unfortunate that she doesn't have that kind of leadership in her church.

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Let me come to the two main passages of scripture that we reference when it comes to understanding that women are not meant to fill these roles.

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They are not to be the ones to position themselves as overseers in the church.

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But the overseer or the shepherd, the elder, the bishop, the pastor is supposed to be a man.

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We find the instructions for men filling those roles, particularly in 1 Timothy 3 and in Titus 1.

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That's where we have the list of qualifications for a pastor. And in both lists, it says that he must be a man.

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And it might say it, whether explicitly or implicitly, like he must be the husband of one wife.

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Right. There are other passages that give qualifications for ministers. Peter talks about it in 1

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Peter 5. Paul talks about it again with Timothy in 2 Timothy 2. But the main two places that we look at regarding the qualifications for pastors are in 1

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Timothy 3 and in Titus 1. And it's right before we get to that list of qualifications for overseers in 1

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Timothy 3 that Paul says this in chapter 2, verse 11.

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Well, first he says that a woman must have what is proper for women who profess godliness.

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That's good works. Right. So that's what she should aspire toward is having good works. That's a godly woman.

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Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man.

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Rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

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Yet she will be saved through childbearing if they continue in faith and love and holiness with self -control.

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And that's simply Paul saying that there are joys that a woman gets to experience that a man does not.

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Oh, yeah. Like childbearing. Yeah. Well, the after effect. The love of the fact that you have.

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The before and the after. That you have brought a child into this world, not necessarily that you carried them around for 40 weeks inside your body, wreaking havoc on your insides.

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But that's not the only joy of being a woman. It's not. But that's that's something that Paul mentions there is there are things that is unique.

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Yeah, exactly. There are things that are unique to women that they get to enjoy. And only they understand giving praise to God in such a way.

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Right. I can give praise to God for being a father. You give praise to God for being a mother. And there are ways that you praise

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God for that, that that I just can't simply relate to. Right. So there's the uniqueness, an example of a uniqueness that God has given to a woman that he's not given to a man.

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But men in particular are to be the overseers of the church. And this, understand when we read this, this doesn't mean like women sit down.

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Yeah. Be quiet. No. Really, the charge is being given here is men, you need to step up and lead.

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Right. And women don't try to step into those roles that men have been given, that God has given to men.

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He has ordained men to fill the role of overseer or shepherd of the church.

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But men need to take these instructions as a charge to guys, shape up. Yeah. Mature in the faith.

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Understand the calling that is upon you, the responsibility that is on all men in the church to be leaders.

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We all need to be leading by godly example in some way, shape or form. Right. Not all men are going to be called to the role of elder.

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Right. But certainly should be aspiring to that in the sense that an elder is a model of a mature

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Christian. So everybody should be looking at the elder, even women looking at the elder and going, that's what I want to be.

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A mature Christian in the Lord who understands his word, handles it rightly, loves one another, encourages others to mature and grow in the faith.

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And these are the kinds of things that the elder sets forth before his congregation, most especially leading in the preaching and teaching over the flock of God.

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Now, when we go to first Corinthians chapter 14, we have this instruction related to the women in the church, as in all the churches of the saints.

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This is first Corinthians 14 verses 34 and 35. The women should keep silent in the churches for they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission.

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As the law also says, if there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home, for it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

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So both of these passages, first Corinthians 14, first Timothy to applying to the fact that women should not be the ones that step into those roles of overseer.

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They must be in quiet submission. And these are passages that Beth Moore defies.

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And according to this exchange with her and Dr. Strand. Oh my goodness, that was not quiet or submissive.

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Openly defies. And that's not, I mean, it doesn't have to necessarily be with your husband that you're only quiet and submissive.

31:00

I mean, it's have respect for one another. We are brothers and sisters in Christ. Right. Let's even take the whole gender thing out of it.

31:08

Yeah. Be respectful to each other. Yeah. For crying out loud. Anyway.

31:13

I don't let my children talk to each other like that. Well, I'm awfully tempted to say that Beth Moore was acting like a child.

31:20

Yeah. Anyway. So the video that I just did was regarding Beth Moore and the concerns that you should have with her teaching so that her teaching is not being taught in your church.

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Here is that video. And then we'll get to our next question. Beth Moore is one of the most well -known women

31:44

Bible teachers. But her teaching is very concerning. Here are four problems with Beth Moore.

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Now, this is not calling into question her love for Christ. But not everyone who loves God is a qualified teacher.

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First, she makes the Bible about you. Her lessons are man -centered or woman -centered, appealing strongly to emotion.

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And she interprets the text to fit her topic. One thing was between them and their land of promise.

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And it was the Jordan River. This will always be the case. That whatever stands between you and your land of promise will always be at flood stage.

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Second, egalitarianism. Continuing to undercut the authority of Scripture, Beth defies God's instruction that women are not to teach over the men of the church.

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God has ordained men to be the shepherds. And what she is doing is shameful. Third, her ties to prosperity theology.

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Now, Beth has said Jesus never promised us a health and wealth prosperity gospel life. Yet her teaching is prosperity light.

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She promises things God doesn't promise. Worse still, she ministers with prosperity wolves, like Joyce Meyer, Brian Houston, and the

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Osteens. Fourth, Beth says she hears from God and receives visions from Him. God began to say to me,

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I'm going to tell you something right now, Beth. Boy, you write this one down. And you say it as often as I give you utterance to say it.

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What do you call a teacher who misuses and defies God's word, keeps company with heretics, and claims to receive divine instruction apart from Scripture?

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The Bible calls them a false teacher when we understand the text. So, while I was working on that video,

33:14

I was sitting in the dining room. I had my laptop open in front of me. And I guess I was listening to a

33:20

Beth Moore clip. Is that what I was doing? Yep. And Becky stops as she's walking by the dining room.

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And she looks at me as though she's caught me doing something on the computer that I'm not supposed to be doing.

33:30

Well, you're not. And she's just kind of looking at me. And I'm just kind of pausing.

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And I'm already feeling kind of sheepish. And she goes, what are you listening to?

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And I said, Beth Moore. And she's glaring.

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And she's like, why? And I said, this is for a video.

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And then she doesn't make another comment. She just – and walks on. I just do what?

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You're glaring. I'm glaring. I can't do it. I'm trying to do it at the microphone as hard as I can.

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I noticed. And people can't see it. No. They can't see me glaring the way that you were glaring at me.

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But she just – and walked on. I was hoping a sound was going to come to my mind.

34:22

That maybe I could express through an onomatopoeia. That's awesome. How your glare.

34:29

How my glare comes. Yeah. That's right. Came across. So. Sure.

34:40

I'm pretty sure after you walked away, I was like, I think I'm going to stop listening now. One of those clips

34:49

I already had because I had used it in another video. But that first clip was – I had to listen to, unfortunately, quite a few messages to come to that.

34:56

Yes. We've talked about this before. How when you find something that Beth Moore says that's wonky, you sometimes have to listen for quite a while.

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It's not like you can pull out little clips like stuff like Joyce Meyer says or Joel Osteen says.

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Right. Because it's not laying the plane. It's like I'm just going to circle and circle and circle and tell you this entire story.

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And then come down a little ways and circle and circle and circle and then land the plane.

35:24

Yeah. So, some of the comments that people have made about this video, I'm going to save for one of the what text videos.

35:30

Oh, yeah. Awesome. The what extended videos. Extra. What do we call those? What extra. That's what it says on the opening slide.

35:36

So, that's what I've got to stick with. What extra. Anyway, Eileen from Iowa sent in this email.

35:42

Pastor Gabe, I'm sure that you've heard from others or I hope that you have, but I have to chime in. As a former

35:47

Catholic, I know Catholics do not love the same God as I do, nor does

35:53

Beth Moore. A preacher preaching a different gospel isn't loving the creator of the universe, but a

36:00

God of their own making. Your video claims that Beth loves Jesus. I was excited to see that you made a video on her, but I can't share it because of that part.

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It undoes some of what I've been trying to explain to women who follow her. Frankly, it may do more harm than good, in my opinion.

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Perhaps you haven't watched much of her, which is good, but perhaps research her a little bit more.

36:24

She is not loving the Jesus of the Bible when we understand the wolf. I like the little clip at the end of that.

36:32

Yeah. Now, I thank you for your message, Eileen, and I did get that kind of commentary from some other people as well.

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And as I said, I'll respond to some of those comments in a future video. But I have heard a lot of Beth Moore.

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If I had to put a number on it, I would say over 50 messages spanning 15 years.

36:54

Yeah. Even when I was in Christian radio, I probably heard more Beth Moore there than I did even now, because I'm able to kind of ignore her for the most part.

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She's not in my church. Right. I have to kind of venture outside of my circles to find

37:09

Beth Moore material anymore. But when I was in Christian radio and surrounded by all the ads that we would put out for the simulcasts and stuff like, such and such a church is hosting a simulcast.

37:22

Right. And then we would be airing certain programs that would air Beth Moore messages. And I think we even had

37:27

Beth Moore shorts that we had on the radio. So I was surrounded with it all the time. And when I say that I've heard over 50 messages,

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I'm talking messages that are more than 20 minutes long. Right. So not just grabbing short little two or three minute clips online or something like that.

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For example, I heard her hairbrush story, the story about her brushing that man's hair at an airport.

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I heard that story long before it was popular. And I could even tell you what book it was first published in.

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Do you know this? No. I wouldn't know. Okay, good. I haven't read any

37:59

Beth Moore. No. It's a book called Further Still. It was published in 2004. And that story, by the way, also appears in several other authors books where they have put together fun little quips and anecdotes from other

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Christian teachers. I think Max Lakato has one. Okay. Where he has different stories from different teachers. And that story from Beth Moore is in there.

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So it appears in various places. Now, having heard her as long as I've been listening to her.

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I have never heard Beth say anything that leads me to believe that she is a heretic who stands condemned.

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In other words, that she has preached something that is in complete contrast or opposition to the gospel.

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I don't know that I've ever heard her say that. There's actually little to disagree with in most of her messages.

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Which is why I have to listen for a long time before I find something that's usable that I can stick in a what video.

38:54

Because the what videos are so short. Yeah. So what videos are so short, I have to find short clips. Right. I can't break down this whole, like, five minute chain for you and go, okay, here's the problem with this.

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I have to find something short that fits in the video. Some of the messages that I've listened to Beth preach are actually quite good.

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And to kind of back myself up a little bit, CARM agrees with me.

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If you go to the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry website that is hosted by Matt Slick and a number of other sound guys that he has right for him on that website.

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Matt Slick has said the same thing. When you listen to a lot of Beth Moore messages, there's actually very little to disagree with.

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But Matt does go through, here's the problems, though, with her teaching. Some of the things that she has said, never apologized for.

39:41

Right. But it's just every once in a while, stuff like this will come out and expose the fact that Beth Moore is actually a very dangerous teacher.

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And you have to kind of get between the pages to find those kinds of things.

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Because, like I said, for the most part, the stuff that she says is going to be fairly okay.

40:00

I get the sense that I get from Beth Moore watching a sermon from her is that she wants her audience to love

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Jesus. Okay. I really think she does. At least, I can't look at what she's doing and what she's saying and all this and think that she's just in it for money.

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I don't have the, I don't know, what would you say, the ability to look into her soul and see that that's what her intention is.

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That would be very uncharitable for me to speculate about her in such a way. All I can go off of is the words that she says.

40:33

Right. And from what I can tell, the words that she has preached seems very in line with the gospel.

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I have heard her preach the gospel before. Now, beyond what I highlighted in the video,

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I did mention that when she teaches, you know, you take the whole message in a broad context. Let's take the whole thing.

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We can't pull part of that message out and say, okay, this was heretical for her to say this or this was false teaching or whatever.

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But you're listening to the whole message, the whole 20 something odd minute message, which is how long those messages are on her living proof programs.

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Okay. You can take that whole thing as a whole and say this was a very man centered message.

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Overall. Oh, I see. It was an appeal to emotion. It was very man centered.

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It wasn't Christ centered. And then going from Christ out to the application of how this is supposed to look in our lives.

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Rather, we kind of start with the life and try to find the life application before she ever even gets to a mention of Christ.

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It's seeker sensitive. It is very altar call ish. You know, it's like we're going to get to the

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Christ part later. But in the meantime, let's look at our problems and see how this helps us.

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You know, that sort of a thing. Instead of giving glory to Christ and making him the focus from the outset of the message.

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And I have heard messages from her where it did seem like she did that. But it seems like her teaching mostly is very man centric.

41:59

All of her books are that way. At least everything that I've read from her comes out just like that. It's focused on the personal problem rather than focused on Christ and his glory.

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And how this helps us in the midst of whatever circumstances we might happen to be going through.

42:15

So beyond what I highlighted in the video, I certainly have some other serious concerns about Beth Moore.

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For example, her tightening embrace of the social justice and the Me Too movements.

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Oh, yeah. And is even causing her to create divisions in the body of Christ.

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So for those of our listeners who don't know what those are. The social justice and Me Too movements.

42:39

Yeah, just brief. Like outside the U .S. Right. People who are not affected by these things at all. Exactly. So the social justice movement is.

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Well, I did the video on it. Let's see if I can try to summarize it the way Votie Bauckham did. The social justice movement is basically about how you owe me.

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And so give me what is due to me. And then I'm even going to make up from the social constructs of our society how

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I have been victimized. And so because of my victim status, here's what you owe to me. That's basically the whole approach of the social justice movement.

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And there's no end. There's no end to it. Right. There's no end game. Yeah, there's no end. You will never be able to make the penance that I'm demanding of you to make.

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Right. You're always going to owe me. Right. So even though the social justice movement might talk about things like reconciliation, there's really no plan of action to reconcile anybody.

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Right. It's always going to be a system of who owes who. You never get to the end of that. Whereas the gospel is what you deserve is death.

43:37

Yeah. And yet God has given to us freely his son, Jesus Christ, to die on the cross for our sins.

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So that whoever believes in him. That's right. Yeah. We are forgiven our sins and we are justified before a holy

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God. That is God in his grace. The gospel is completely contrary to the approach of the social justice movement.

43:58

Now, then you've got the Me Too movement, which is women saying...

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Basically, the foundation of the Me Too movement is I have been harassed too.

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I have been victimized. A man has victimized me. Right. That's kind of the Me Too movement. It's mainly about men harassing or victimizing women.

44:21

Right. But like with the social justice movement... And the women saying Me Too. Me Too.

44:26

Right. Me Too. It happened to Me Too. Right. That's kind of where the name comes from. It was a hashtag is how that started out.

44:31

Right. But just like with the social justice movement, there's no end game to the Me Too movement. It's continuing you owe me.

44:38

Now, there are some things that I think that the Me Too movement has... Brought to light. Right. Brought to light.

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Absolutely. Some serious problems that are going on in various avenues, sectors of our culture.

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That should not have been swept under the rug. They should have been taken care of well, long time ago.

45:00

That's a good thing. But at the same time, like we were saying, there's no end game. Yeah.

45:05

It's still about who owes who. And then even the people who... People are starting to take advantage of that situation too.

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One of the ways... Right. One of the ways that that situation is being taken advantage of is look at how terribly the men have handled this.

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So men, you need to step out of the way and now it's time for the women to lead. That's one of the ways this is being done. And Beth Moore has done that.

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Yeah. She has tried to champion women being moved into positions that are... Well, in this case, ordained by God for men to hold.

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Just because there has been some seriously awful wicked men that have filled those roles doesn't mean that now that assignment is over, we need to try to let women in the space now.

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Men are sinful. Right. Women are sinful. That's right. Doesn't mean that women are going to be able to step in that place and do any better at it.

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We still need to follow the instruction as God has given it. The reason why there's been a breakdown of this is because people stopped following that instruction.

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That's right. Not because God's way didn't work. So now we have to do it our way. So anyway, that's just a couple of ways that Beth Moore...

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She's gotten increasingly concerning and her views becoming even more and more liberal, more in line with the culture and less in line with what scripture has to say.

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These concerns that I have with Beth, not just what's in the video, but even concerns outside those things that were highlighted in the video, they help me and my other pastor friends with whom

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I talk about these things anticipate the future and equip the people who are under my care accordingly.

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Should the Lord guide me to be able to affect the trajectory of things and influence others to change course, then

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I desire to do so in humility and wisdom. Right. Jesus said in Matthew 10, 16,

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I send you out as sheep amidst the wolves. Therefore, be as wise as serpents and as gentle as doves.

46:53

If you, talking to Eileen, but also anyone in our listening audience, if you have engaged with many

47:00

Beth Moore fans, and I have some of them in my own family, then you'll know that one of the first things that they will appeal to when you start raising issues about Beth Moore, one of the first things they'll appeal to is, well, she loves

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Jesus. You can tell that this woman, she just loves Jesus. And if I were to reply to them, no, she doesn't love

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Jesus. She's a heretic. Then I've lost them. Yeah. There's nothing else that I am going to say is going to matter to them.

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It's like, oh, you already have your mind made up. You're just going to try to convince me she's a heretic, and I don't want to hear it.

47:32

Right. That's going to be their approach to that. So it's neither wise nor gentle to approach this matter that way.

47:38

All we have is what we know, and we do not know her heart. I can only rebuke what she has said, what can be pointed to, and what can be proven.

47:50

Everything else is speculative. Right. Even these concerns that have been raised in this particular video, she has an explanation for them.

47:57

Like when we say she claims to hear from God, she might backtrack that and go, well, I don't actually hear his voice.

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And then there's follow -up questions to that. Well, then what's the difference between a voice in your head and the actual audible voice of God speaking from heaven?

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What would be the difference? Right. Because you're clearly obeying the voice that you hear as though it's from God.

48:17

There's even one book in particular, I think it's her book Audacious, where she talks about in her book Audacious times that she thought

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God was speaking to her and she was wrong and made a fool out of herself. Oh. And it's like,

48:29

Beth, the Bible talks about this. Yeah, it does. If you claim that you have received a word from God and it doesn't come to pass, you've spoken presumptuously.

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It's Deuteronomy 18. And for a person who prophesies and preaches in this way, the penalty for that in ancient

48:45

Israel was death. Yeah. If you claim to have received a word from God, but it wasn't actually from God.

48:51

Yeah. I think you need to take that a little bit more seriously. No joke. But again, this comes down to she is not formally trained, has never had any formal education in scripture.

49:01

I think her degree was in like political science or something like that. I don't have any idea. And then the men of her church are not properly shepherding her.

49:09

Right. And correcting her in her errors. As a pastor, I do not have the liberty of following speculations.

49:16

I cannot speculate about what she means, what her intentions might be. Right. What the future of this idea is going to mean for people who follow her teaching or something like this.

49:27

I must be temperate. I must be self -controlled. And one of the instructions that's for me as a pastor is

49:34

I must also be well thought of by outsiders. And so I have to consider how is what

49:41

I say going to be received by this person whom I'm trying to convince that Beth Moore's teaching is a problem.

49:50

And if I just come at it with, well, she's a heretic and I'm not going to get anywhere. Yeah. We're not going to get anywhere trying to convince them, trying to help them see or understand.

49:58

So notice that video began with me saying, and I'm saying honestly, that I don't think that she's not a

50:05

Christian. I'm not looking at Beth Moore going, you are in league with the synagogue of Satan.

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You are outside of the body of Christ. This woman is a heretic, avoid at all costs. That's not what

50:17

I see when I look at Beth Moore. Her followers are going to point to her love for Christ.

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And I believe that I have to give them that. That's not the ground on which I want to argue anyway. I have heard

50:28

Beth Moore preach the gospel. I've heard her express deep, passionate zeal for the biblical

50:33

Jesus. Not like the Jesus that Bethel Church worships. Right.

50:39

Which the way that they define Jesus is even heretical. The way that I've heard Beth Moore define Jesus is biblical.

50:45

So I don't have a reason to believe that when she talks about Jesus, she's talking about a different God. And I've heard her plead with her audiences to repent of sin.

50:54

Even I've heard her say that. Oh, wow. And to trust in Jesus and follow him. I've heard her name sins that you need to turn from.

51:02

There's even a message on YouTube I can direct you to where she names those sins. Now, there's a problem with something else that she says in that particular message.

51:10

But this is still, I mean, Joel Osteen doesn't talk about that. No. The article that Albert Moeller just recently wrote on his website about Joel Osteen, which is even response to another article that was published in the newspaper.

51:22

Okay. But Joel Osteen never confronts sin, never talks about it. And he outright says that. I just want people to walk away feeling good.

51:29

He even openly says that's his ambition. And that's not the way that Beth Moore approaches this.

51:34

She will say hard things to make her audience uncomfortable. Clearly, because she came at Owen Strand.

51:40

Yeah. See there, I messed up. Owen Strand with an attempt to try to make him feel uncomfortable.

51:47

So I have no reason to believe that her appeals to her audience to trust in Jesus. I don't have any reason to believe that those appeals are not genuine.

51:55

But that doesn't make her a qualified teacher. Outside of the moments that she is focused on the gospel, there are grave problems that will lead many into strange and false doctrines.

52:06

Yeah. And that's where we must examine her as a teacher. For teachers will be judged with greater strictness,

52:13

James 3 .1. So with all of this in mind, Eileen, I understand if you still say that you cannot share the video.

52:19

But according to what Paul says in Galatians 1 .10, I'm not seeking the approval of men or else

52:25

I would not be a servant of Christ. Right. Again, I've given you biblical reasons for why

52:30

I said what I said. And I mean, I still get to the end of the video and call her a false teacher.

52:36

Yeah. That's the conclusion that you have to make. But just because a person is a false teacher, I don't think that term is necessarily synonymous with heretics.

52:45

Oh, no, those are two totally different things. Right. At the start of 1 Timothy, Paul says to Timothy, do not let anyone teach any different doctrine which leads to speculation.

52:55

Beth Moore definitely falls in that category. Yeah. But she doesn't fall in like the 2

53:00

Peter 2 category of there are heretics that are going to rise up among you and lead you astray and away from the gospel.

53:08

I don't think that Beth necessarily does that. Now, I don't think that following her teaching is going to lead to biblical godliness.

53:15

But, I mean, clearly, because she's defying Scripture to go against it in order to preach at her church this weekend.

53:21

And everybody coming to her hoorah, whatever you want to call it, was cussing.

53:27

Swearing, yeah. That's what her teaching is developing. Yeah, that's not a good sign. And her followers, not at all.

53:33

In fact, the Spirit warns us about that as well. If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our

53:41

Lord Jesus Christ in the teaching that accords with godliness, in other words, teaching that produces godliness in the hearts of those who believe it, if he comes teaching something else, then they're puffed up with conceit and understand nothing.

53:56

They have an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.

54:15

And so that's what we have in the teaching of Beth Moore, who is playing by her own rulebook, defying

54:20

Scripture, and I think that her teaching needs to be avoided at all costs. Don't let it in your church, even if they're not bodily, you know, personally, physically there.

54:29

Right. The books and the videos can't be there either. That's right. Get them out. Yep. All right, let's pray.

54:35

Yes, let's. Heavenly Father, we thank you for this time together and the chance to open your word and consider your truth, and I pray that we would be submissive to this, not based on our biases, not according to our emotional responses, the reactions that we might be prone to in the passions of our flesh, but rather that we would be submissive in the whole members of all of our bodies to our

55:01

Lord Christ. For we are instructed in Romans 12 .1 to present our bodies as a living sacrifice unto the

55:08

Lord, and this is our spiritual act of worship. That includes our tongues. That includes our minds.

55:14

Loving the Lord our God with all of our mind, our heart, our soul, our strength, everything that we are.

55:22

And so we ask for your Spirit upon us to keep us in submission to you as we are to be, never thinking more highly of ourselves, but being in submission to the perfect holy word of our

55:35

Lord Christ. And if there is anything about this word that we don't understand, let us not take matters into our own hands, but seek right counsel that we may be walking in your truth and not trying to make up our own subjective paths and reasoning in order to get what it is that we want.

55:54

I pray for Beth Moore. And I pray that even this exchange that has happened with Dr. Strand would humble her.

56:02

She would realize what it is that she's done and what she's even presenting in view of the public, in view of everyone else, and that she would humble herself and come into submission, first and foremost, to the word of God, because she's not following that.

56:15

I pray that people would not be too misled by her, but that we would, in a patient spirit, continue to instruct one another that we may be lifted up, speaking the truth in love, holding fast to the head who is

56:28

Christ Jesus. And it's in his name that we pray. Amen. Amen. You're what?

57:50

Is this like that ear sensory thing? But there's guys listening.

58:20

This must be submitted in a whisper. Emphasis on the submitted.

58:27

You can't do that. Raise my voice. I can speak louder. You're the one that's supposed to be quiet.

58:34

With my self -control. Shh. Okay, yes, self -control. Yes, I have self -control. I can speak at a normal volume.

58:40

You're supposed to be quiet. You are bringing me out of a whisper. Shh.