Refuting the Pro-Life Industry & Cathi Herrod

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Non -rockabodas must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it

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Are you gonna bark all day little doggie, or are you gonna bite? We're being delusional. Delusional?

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Yeah, delusional is okay in your worldview. I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional.

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So you calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly okay. It doesn't really hurt. It's hung up on me!

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YES! What? What? Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men.

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The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.

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Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make brosives.

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Don't go into the world and make homies. Disciples. I got a bit of a jiggle neck.

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That's a joke, pastor. When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

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Woe to those who decree iniquitous decrees and the writers who keep writing oppression.

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To turn aside the needy from justice and to rob the poor of my people of their right.

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That widows may be their spoil and that they may make the fatherless their prey.

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Isaiah chapter 10, y 'all. Verses 1 through 2. Isaiah 10, 1 through 2.

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Very relevant section of scripture related to what we're gonna be talking about today right here on Apologia Radio.

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Welcome back to the Gospel Heard Around the World, everybody. I'm Jeff the Calm of the Ninja. That's Luke the

02:04

Bear. You look a little lighter today. Lighter? How? Did you lose some weight? I am very much lighter today.

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I got the stomach bug that went around Apologia Church. You thought I meant, like, color? What do you mean?

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You were like... Oh, yeah, I was like, what, am I losing... Losing my lost pigmentation? I actually haven't got a chance to, like, be out in the sun for the last week and a half.

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So I thought, am I losing my color? Well, this is like, you know, 2020, 2021 is the...

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It's the era of no tan. Yeah. Nobody's spending enough time out in the sun.

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Yeah, yeah, that's true. And it is colder now, so I'm not doing as much as, like, the morning, you know, runs and everything like I should be.

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And that's Joy the Girl right there. Yes, it is. Joy the Girl, Joy the Lady. Joy the

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Mama. We have... We don't have to second guess it. We have the Ladyfolk. Yes, just the girl. Hey, guys, very important show we have for you today.

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Encourage you guys, really, truly encourage you to share this one. I know the title is kind of interesting because we are truly pro -life for equal protection on all human life to be protected.

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And so I'd be saying, like, why would people who are trying to abolish abortion be talking this way in a description or a title about the pro -life industry?

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Well, that's the key issue. Industry. The pro -life industry. For the past 50 years, the pro -life industry has been facing down the issue of abortion in a way that we say is entirely inconsistent and that is fundamentally not from the

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Christian worldview. And so when we talk about refuting the pro -life movement and pro -life industry, we're talking about the industry that calls itself pro -life.

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So very important show today. I truly believe this is going to bless you. I know that there are people watching this and will be watching this later who are going to hear things today in this show that they're really going to have to grapple with.

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I want to just say right now that I know I'm going to say things that go against the typical party line of the pro -life industry.

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And there might be some reaction from you with what I have to say.

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But I want to just challenge you with this. For the episode today, I want to encourage you to be willing.

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Please be willing. Humble enough. If your position is right, you can do this. Humble enough and willing enough to have an open mind to hear the arguments and then do an internal critique of your own system.

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So what I'm going to ask you to do today as we think through this for the sake of these human beings who are being slaughtered,

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I'm going to ask you to look at your feet. Okay? Not so that I win or that we win the argument, but for the sake of these children.

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Now, some might say that's an emotional argument. I would say, well, it's true. And I would say emotional arguments can be good, can be wise, logical, consistent when they're grounded in truth.

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You can use emotion, appropriate human emotion, and appeal to human emotion and appeal to an image bearer of God when it's grounded in truth and it's not manipulation.

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So no attempt at manipulation today. I am going to say some things and show you some videos, some things from the top of the pro -life industry that I think will be shocking to you if you're a believer and you believe the word of God.

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If you're a person who thinks consistently about human life, I think what you're going to hear today and see today is going to shock you.

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I'm going to be engaging with, we are going to be engaging with today, Kathy Harrod. Kathy Harrod runs

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CAP, Center for Arizona Policy. We've had Kathy on Apologia Radio many, many years ago.

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I believe we had her on twice. I think so. Maybe. I could be wrong about that.

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But at least, at least, Kathy, at least on once we've been to Kathy's offices.

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The three of us were at Kathy's offices. I was with Kathy praying for her when there were mobs of people outside of Center for Arizona Policy who wanted her head.

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We love Kathy. We respect Kathy. But Kathy, you are egregiously wrong.

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And respectfully, sister, you are part of the problem. And I have to say that because my obligation, first and foremost, is to be faithful to God, to fear

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God, not to be fearful of men. And my obligation, our obligation, is to rescue these children from death.

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And if you're engaged in a pursuit, a methodology that ultimately is leading to more children dying, then it is the most loving thing for us to do to confront you and to say you're wrong on this.

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And you're wrong in such a way as to lead to very disastrous consequences.

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And so that's what we're going to be talking about today. Just a quick pointer for all of you guys who are new to Apologia Studios. Lots of stuff you can get right now if you go through the feed after the show today.

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ApologiaStudios .com. That's where you guys can go to get all kinds of content, hundreds of radio shows, podcast episodes.

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God bless you. Thank you so much. We're grateful for you because you make all this ministry a thing.

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It actually exists because you're with us in this. So thank you guys very, very much for that. So a quick thing, I just want to point everybody to what happened was a week and a half ago, right?

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Just about. We had a rally. Yeah, I'm going to think about it. Rallyforlifeaz .com

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is where you guys can go to the website, although I don't think it's even much to it anymore. Yeah, it won't be up there.

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We had a rally in Arizona at the Arizona State Capitol. The rally was surrounding Representative Walt Blackman's bill,

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HB 2650. You guys can go research that, actually. You can actually go because we do have a landing page up now for it.

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Oh, do we? So it's HB2650 .com. Perfect. And it's through EAN, so it has all the information.

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You can go, you can still sign the petition, and you can click on the link that actually shows you the progress of the bill.

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Excellent. HB 2650 is the official title of the bill. Please be in prayer for it, everybody.

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Very, very important. This is the Equal Protection Act for Arizona. This is giving equal protection to all human beings in the state of Arizona.

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And so that's really what it's about, equal protection. If you believe that all human beings need to be protected equally, then you should be behind this bill.

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And that is to say every professed pro -life industry leader should be behind this bill. But why aren't they?

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That's not to say that nobody is. Of course, there are supporters, many, many supporters, and of course, many, many

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Christians who support it. But there is a problem with the pro -life industry. Some leaders don't support equal protection for all human beings.

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And that is a fact. I am not giving you an exaggeration.

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Not all leaders of the pro -life industry support equal protection for all humans.

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Proof positive of that is that when we were holding the rally, very shortly after or even during the rally,

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I'm going to check to see when she tweeted that, Kathy Harrod, local leader of Center for Arizona Policy, came out in opposition to the bill.

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She said, I'm not taking a position, essentially, but she did take a position in it. She said that she believes women who have abortions are, in fact, victims themselves.

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And I'm going to actually just read to you what she said so you get some context here. So this, I'm going to point you to my screen here.

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This is the statement from Center for Arizona Policy President Kathy Harrod.

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I know you do. But are you being consistent,

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Kathy? We strive for a day when abortion is unthinkable and not legal. Why can't we use the terminology that we would normally talk about?

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Unthinkable and not legal should mean illegal. Now, Kathy, if something is illegal in a state, what does that make it?

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A crime. So even the playing with language here, she's not courageous enough to simply say what she believes.

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She's not consistent. Kathy, this is leading to more children dying. You will have to answer for this.

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You're going to have to answer for how come you're not being consistent with what you've told people you believe and you've taken money for.

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How come you will not be consistent for the sake of these children? Unthinkable and not legal, well, why don't you just say a crime.

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Do you want abortion to be a crime, Kathy? Because it takes a human life and it deeply harms the woman.

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It takes a human life. Kathy, outside of the methodology you have adopted to approach the issue of abortion within the pro -life industry, what is it called normally when a human being takes a human being's life in an unjustified way?

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What's that called? Well, it's called murder. It's called murder. And it deeply harms the woman.

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Well, we agree. Agree in a number of ways. It harms the woman spiritually.

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In other words, when a woman takes a life of her own child, it's a sin against God. It's a sin against the child.

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It harms the woman because of the trauma, of course, that she's going to have to endure throughout her entire life knowing that she killed her own child, her own baby, of course.

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There are, of course, consequences that happen within the abortion industry where women are harmed in terms of never being able to have children again.

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That happens, and it happens often enough where you can say that there's definite harm that women are going to have to face, and there's harm in the fact that women have actually died having abortions, of course.

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So, yeah, it does harm women. We agree, both physically and emotionally. How about spiritually, Kathy? How about spiritually?

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I noticed, too, when I was doing some research, even looking through some of Kathy's talks, Kathy, you do a lot of engagement and talking on Christian podcasts and at Christian churches.

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So, people see you as a representative of the Christian position in Arizona trying to defend a

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Christian worldview legislatively, physically and emotionally. How about spiritually,

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Kathy? We share this common belief with many Arizona citizens and organizations that are compelled to speak out and take steps toward a future without abortion.

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Now, Kathy, question, how would you have a future without abortion if you don't think that it should be a crime that's punished because the mom's a victim?

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CAP's focus right now is on legislation that will provide further protections in Arizona law for the pre -born and their mothers with the likelihood of being upheld by the courts.

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The emphasis ought to be on the pre -born. Exactly. The emphasis here, because see, here's the deal.

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There's a victim being killed in abortion. So, the emphasis ought to be, with Arizona law, victim's rights, protecting the victim.

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The human being being killed is what the emphasis should be on. We all look forward to a day when abortion is unthinkable and illegal.

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Now, here's the deal. Unthinkable, of course, requires a worldview change.

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Why would abortion be seen as unthinkable? Right? I mean, like for example, let's, let's, can we just talk with this for a second, guys, and feel free to fill in here.

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When I think about something that is a sin and a crime, and I say that ought to be unthinkable for all of us, I think about something like, it's a great example because we all have such a visceral reaction to this, sex trafficking, right?

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If I was to say to everybody, hey everybody, I want sex trafficking to be seen as unthinkable in Arizona, I think everyone's automatic response ought to be, yeah, isn't it already amongst everybody seen as unthinkable?

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And why do we see it as unthinkable? Because it's an abuse of another human being. It should be a crime.

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Like sex trafficking is a crime. You ought not be able to do that. So when we say unthinkable,

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I want you all to understand that when Kathy says abortion should be unthinkable, she doesn't mean that it should be seen as murder and punishable as a crime.

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She just wants people to think it's unthinkable. Now here's the deal. I agree it should be unthinkable because it's murder.

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The problem is you can't legislate unthinkable. You legislate as a crime.

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This is criminal, right? So you can say, I just want everyone to just have a distaste of this.

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I want everyone to have my preference on this. Listen, you can't legislate preferences. If it's a crime, it's a crime.

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Call it a crime. And so that's what I think is a problem for me is the pro -life industry says things, we want things like, we want abortion to be unthinkable.

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And everyone goes, of course. But how do you get from unthinkable to we're trying to actually end it?

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We're turning off the spout. Well, it has to be something that's actually coming with a penalty. Punishment.

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So if I can back up to the statement you read before this because this one sentence really bothered me where she said,

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Center for Arizona Policy has always been fully committed to advocating. I'm sorry. That's not the one

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I meant. CAP's focus right now is on legislation that will provide further protection to Arizona law for the pre -born.

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If it was just that, stop, perfect. Right. But then, and you talk about a little bit, but then she says, and their mother.

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So essentially, this is just a really sneaky comment here, but essentially what she's saying is that some pre -born.

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Some. Right. And if making the mother a criminal means that we can't stop all abortions.

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So like you said, she's putting the mother ahead of those babies. So that's really what she's saying. And then it's like this little sneaky little thing she throws on the end, which most people will just kind of whatever breeze by.

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She says, with a likelihood of being upheld by the courts. Right.

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So we're all for stopping abortions if the courts will uphold it. If the courts will allow it.

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Which is just a completely. Which is a lack of courage. Lack of courage. It's a completely subjective standard based on zero principle whatsoever.

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Right. So it's pragmatism versus principle for Cathy. Exactly. Will it work? Not what's right.

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Exactly. Right. Will it work? Not what is right. Right. To do. And that's the issue with people in the pro -life industry.

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And of course, in particular, someone like Cathy is that she's not operating based upon consistent holding to principle.

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She's operating based upon what's pragmatic. Exactly. Not what's right. Not what's true.

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Not what ought to be done, but what will work. And here's the thing.

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We are in such a glorious time in our history where we have right now before us the premier example of states upholding the rights of their citizens and protecting their citizens and rejecting court opinions and even federal law.

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And we have that with regard to marijuana. California, Arizona, Colorado, Nevada, Washington, Oregon, Washington, D .C.

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all reject the now current federal law. There's no federal law about abortion.

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There is federal law against marijuana, and there are plenty of court opinions about marijuana. And all these states are literally just thumbing their noses at the federal law and the courts saying, not listening.

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We're a sovereign state, and we're upholding the rights of our citizens. We disagree with you. We think that's unconstitutional.

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We think it's wrong. So we reject what you have to say. And so when she says, you know, we've got to just go with what the courts are just going to reject it,

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I say this, reject the court. Reject the court. Somebody says, how can you reject the court? You know, kind of like Dred Scott, like that situation, kind of like where the

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Supreme Court gave down an opinion regarding black slaves that states at the time said, you know what?

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You're wrong. You're not the supreme being. You're the Supreme Court. You gave a court opinion.

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The state said, you're wrong. It's unconstitutional. It's a violation of God's law. We will not agree with the

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Supreme Court's decision with Dred Scott. You work for us. Yeah, exactly. We don't just accept what you've said.

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We look into it, and we decide if that was the ruling that represents us. Right. And yeah,

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I don't know. I feel like another thing that's worth mentioning is that it's important that you use the word industry.

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And to an extent, I think that Kathy inherited a job with job security.

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And that's what I mean is that when a long time ago, when we first started the pro -life movement, it should have been seen as something that would go away because abortion would be criminalized.

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We want it to end. But what ended up happening was it's this huge political entity that I don't really know that those working within the pro -life industry really think of that way anymore.

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I don't think they're thinking of it as I'm supposed to be working myself out of a job here.

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That's right. And that's sort of the environment that anytime someone gets a job in that industry, it's like career -minded.

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But in that way, you shouldn't be looking to rise through the ranks in this instance.

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You should be looking to basically work your way out of a job and say like, oh, so my life's work amounted to me being gone and fading into nothing.

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What is the thing we say at the beginning of every year with EAN and we say all the time is that this is coming from the church.

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We're trying to end abortion. We're trying to criminalize and abolish this. We don't want to take another penny. Exactly right.

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We're working so that we're never asking anybody for any more donations to do this. We want to end the injustice and then move on to whatever else the

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Lord calls us to. We don't want to take a single penny more ever again in this area.

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And the pro -life industry, you got to ask deep questions. I don't know the motivations of everyone's hearts.

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I'm not saying that there aren't people in the industry that are very consistent and truly want to end it. Yeah, I definitely mean that that's just sort of the environment that's been fostered in that industry.

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I definitely don't want to like, I'm not claiming to know the thoughts of people that are in that industry.

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But it is a question that needs to be asked of somebody in the industry. Are you ready to work yourself out of a job? Or is this your career?

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Is this you working your way to the top? Because it's not something that should have been around for as long as it's been around.

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Otherwise, that means it's basically like Biden doing nothing for 47 years and then us electing him president.

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I didn't. Well, yeah. My problem, and I've said it. American us.

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Well, that might even be us. Well, yeah. Well, now YouTube just shut us down.

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I just mean us. I just mean us in the general sense of the word, I guess. Theoretically us.

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So, you know, one thing I said is that, you know, Kathy, you've taken money from a lot of Christians for a long time.

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I mean, when you first go to Cap's website, the very first thing that comes up on this slide thing is a thing about pro -life and giving.

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People are giving to Center for Arizona Policy because they believe you're trying to end abortion, Kathy. Not just make it unthinkable.

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You're trying to end it and bring justice and equal protection for these babies. That's why people gave you money.

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And Kathy, you're coming out in opposition to HB 2650, the equal protection bill, the bill that says everything that you've pretended to believe for so long, the fact that you came out against it, in opposition to it, contradicting yourself, should say to every person who's ever given money to Cap or is considered to give money to Cap or is about to give money to Cap, don't.

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Don't. Don't ever give money to Center for Arizona Policy again, as long as Kathy Harrod is inconsistent in this.

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She has the opportunity here to basically say to everybody, hey everybody, everything we've ever wanted here, human life to be protected, to be seen as sacred, to be given equal protection, is right here in this bill.

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We're about to end abortion in the state of Arizona. That's where you should be right now.

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But the fact that you're not testifies to every person who's giving money to you, to every

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Christian church you speak in, it testifies that you don't really believe what you've told people.

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Well, and she can't support it, because that would mean that she would have to tell women who have had abortions that what they did was wrong.

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Yeah, well, and that gets to this part right here. Yeah. So, this is the crux of what we're saying today, we'll be right here in this last point here.

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She says, we all look forward to a day when abortion is unthinkable and illegal. Good. What are things that are illegal?

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Crimes. And I applaud all efforts to that end. CAP has not taken a position on HB 2650.

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Yes, you are. But we do oppose any move to put the woman who seeks or has an abortion in prison.

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In the pro -life community, we love both the woman and her unborn child, both are victims. I can love both the mother and her child, and still say what you did is a crime.

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I can love the thief, I can love the liar, I can love the murderer, and still call it lies, murder, and theft.

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Okay? And so it's a false dichotomy to say, well, I've got to see her as a victim to really love her.

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No, that's not the case. Also, when you say both are victims, the mother and the child are victims.

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So a mother who brings her child into a location with premeditation, into a location where she pays an assassin to cut the head, arms, and legs off of her child, she's a victim?

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See, it seems to me, Kathy, there's only one victim there. The victim is the child. The victim is the innocent child in the womb.

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The mother and the father are not victims in the instance of bringing their child in to kill their baby.

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The abortionist, of course, is not a victim. There is one victim, and that's a child being slaughtered.

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And by the way, Kathy, I know you know this because you're the one that pointed it out to me on our phone call. Years ago,

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Kathy and I had a private phone call, and she said to me, abortion is already against the law in the state of Arizona.

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She's the one that pointed it out to me. Arizona Statute 13 -3603. Kathy, you taught me that, that it already is against the law in the state of Arizona.

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And what does it say in that law that you pointed me to, Kathy? It says in the law, currently in Arizona, that if a woman kills her child via abortion, she's going to spend, what, two to five years in jail?

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Somewhere around there? It already has prison time. Now, you know what's the law in Arizona, Kathy, and you know that there's already prison time in that.

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And so the question has to be asked, Kathy, if Arizona upheld that law right now, would you be opposed to it asking for women to be taken out of jail because they're victims?

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Also, Kathy, if women are victims in the area of abortion, then there's nothing to repent of.

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There's no gospel for them. This is my point to you as a believer, Kathy, with the gospel.

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You cannot share the gospel with a mother who's killed her child like I can. Our church is filled with women who have had abortions, some of them multiple abortions.

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They all say that they killed their own child. They're honest about it, and they've received grace, freedom, forgiveness in Christ, and they are loved by us and encouraged by us.

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They are seen as forgiven people. But we give the gospel to those women, and we tell them, be honest about what happened and come to Christ.

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Flee to Christ. Repent. Trust in Him and His forgiveness. I can give the gospel to a mom who's killed her baby and say, there is freedom and forgiveness if you turn from your sin to Christ.

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Now, you don't have a gospel for the woman who comes to you and says she feels guilt over her abortion because you'll just tell her what?

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Oh no, sweetie, you're a victim. Victims don't repent, Kathy. They're not guilty.

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And so there is no gospel for the women you're talking to about abortions because you would just say what to them?

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You didn't do anything wrong, honey? There's nothing to ask for forgiveness for? I think that you probably instinctively do,

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Kathy. I would imagine, I hope, Kathy, for every woman who's ever come to you in your life and says, I've killed my own child,

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I feel guilty, I hope that you're not saying to them, you're not guilty. There's nothing to turn to Christ for in this instance.

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I hope you're saying there's freedom in Christ, there's freedom in His cross, and what He's accomplished for sinners, you can turn to Him for forgiveness from this.

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I hope you're saying that, and watch this, Kathy, please hear me on this, and only you and God know this, if you are saying that to those women, then your statement here about them being victims is a lie.

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Exactly what I was just going to say. And you know it. Because if you've ever told one sister in Christ that she can turn from the sin of abortion to Christ for forgiveness, then you have admitted that they are not victims and they need forgiveness.

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Victims don't need forgiveness. So I just found something that is going to make you want to punch your computer screen.

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I'll get to that in a second. So I want to clarify something, because this is the typical propaganda that immediately,

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I mean, even before the rally on Friday, there was already articles coming out with this propaganda saying they just want to murder mothers that have abortions.

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And the point of a bill like this is that if a mother was to have an abortion and it was illegal, there would be a court proceeding.

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She would go to court before a jury, and they would have to prove her guilty of this abortion, you know, biblically with two to three independent lines of witnesses.

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Now, no, I'm just going to go ahead and go out and say this, but no faithful Christian has ever advocated for zero trial before receiving some sort of legal punishment.

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If you've heard someone say they're a Christian and then they do that, that's why

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I said, that's why I used the word faithful to qualify. The word Christian. Anyway.

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So are there instances where women may be coerced or forced into having an abortion?

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Absolutely. And they would be proven innocent in a court of law. Sex trafficking.

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Situation. Guy forces a woman by gunpoint. Yeah, exactly. She's a victim. But those cases are very, very small, very minute.

30:44

And again, what they're trying to do is legislate the exception and not the rule. And, I mean, we have countless videos of women.

30:52

They know what they're doing. They don't care. They know it's a child. They want to murder their child. Well, and then if you want to say that women are, if you want to say that they're ignorant, and that's why they're without shame, then they would have to prove that.

31:06

But that's also why that, I mean, us standing outside of women's clinics is the perfect example.

31:14

If you really want to say that ignorance is enough of a reason to remove the shame of murder, then that is why

31:21

Christians should be standing outside and saying, just in case, you're not.

31:27

You're not ignorant that this is murder. But just in case you are, we're here telling you that it's not.

31:33

We're here telling you what's real, what's true, and we're giving you the gospel and telling you not to do this thing that you might be ignorant of.

31:40

And don't for a second believe, I don't for a second believe that people are ignorant of it.

31:45

So many women who have even gone through with it, women who have turned away, they know. It's like it's hardwired into them.

31:54

I know you're on a path. Just one sentence. Every woman knows that she's killing her child who's having an abortion.

32:00

How do we know that? Because she's going in to have an abortion. Stop and think about it.

32:07

She's going in to have an abortion. If she didn't think anything was going on, she would do nothing.

32:14

She knows that something's going to come out of her body, and what is that something that's coming out? Her baby. Every woman going into an abortion mill knows she's killing her own child, or she wouldn't be having an abortion.

32:28

Now, she could be being deceived. It's okay to kill your child.

32:34

That's a different scenario. It's perfectly fine, honey. But the whole argument that she doesn't know what's going on, easily refuted by the fact that she's in the abortion facility to have an abortion.

32:47

So, like you said, I was going to say that. Her saying that both are victims is just flat straight a lie, and we have more than enough video evidence to back that up.

33:02

So, we're not really at liberty to give the context of this whole conversation, but we are able to say that,

33:08

I think it was about two weeks before the rally, she had a conversation with Walt Blackman and verbally agreed to support his bill.

33:18

And then, of course, right after the rally, she produces this. Which seems to happen consistently. In Oklahoma, didn't that happen as well?

33:26

It seemed like people were on board, and then when it actually came down to doing it, they were like, hmm, no.

33:33

So, here, you ready for this? So, I just went to CAP's website, because I'm like, what abortion bills are they actually trying to put through right now?

33:42

So, this is, where'd the number go? SB, so this is in the

33:48

Senate. SB 1457. So, this right now is awaiting a committee hearing on the 4th.

34:00

So, it's awaiting a committee hearing on the 4th. So, here we go. This is what this bill does. It establishes that the laws of Arizona will be interpreted in the context of valuing all human life.

34:13

Seems like a noble cause. Prohibits abortions on the basis of genetic abnormality, such as Down syndrome.

34:19

Clarifies that abortion -inducing drugs may not be distributed through the mail. Prohibits any public contracts with abortion providers or affiliates.

34:29

Prohibits public schools from promoting abortion or experimenting with aborted human remains. Calls for the burial or cremation of aborted human remains.

34:38

There's one more I'm going to get to. So, you know, again, these are all some babies. This is incredibly incriminating.

34:45

Can you read that last one real fast? Everyone, listen to the last one. Calls for the burial or cremation of aborted human remains.

34:52

The pro -life industry thinks that's a victorious bill. You can kill the babies, but you at least have to bury them.

34:58

Yeah, so here you go. You ready for this one? Last one. Repeals our pre -Roe law punishing women who get abortions.

35:08

There you go. And there you go. There you go. I just read that. I was like, ah!

35:14

Because it is on the books that abortion is a criminal act in the state of Arizona.

35:21

A criminal act, and it ought to be, where the woman will serve time for the crime of killing her child.

35:30

CAP is opposed to equal protection for humans in the womb.

35:35

And so she doesn't want the mother who kills the child to actually be seen as guilty to any degree.

35:43

Now, please consider that, everyone. And please stop sending Kathy Harrod your money. Kathy, I told you,

35:50

I told you that I'm going to make it my life's mission that every Christian pastor in this state knows about your compromise.

35:58

And I'm going to make sure it's my life's mission that every Christian I communicate with on this issue about you never sends you another penny.

36:07

Because you are lying to people when you tell them that you believe that this is human life from conception and that it deserves equal protection, that it should be valued.

36:18

You are trying to oppose bills that would actually do what you say you are trying to do.

36:25

And that passage I read at the beginning of the show today, Isaiah chapter 10, verse 1, and woe to those who decree iniquitous decrees, and the writers who keep writing oppression.

36:37

That was written oppression. Right there, Kathy. Written oppression. Written oppression.

36:42

Because you're saying, well, don't kill the babies with Down syndrome, but everybody else will get to those. Oppression.

36:48

Oppressing these babies and saying, well, just don't kill the ones with Down syndrome. Real success.

36:54

Or yes, okay, you've killed the babies, but at least give them a proper burial. I mean, Kathy, that is cowardice on a level that offers no respect from me to you.

37:06

Cowardice. Kill the baby, but give them a proper burial. What world are we living in? It's fine that you kill all of the

37:12

Jews. Make sure you're not just throwing their bodies into a pit. I mean, at least give them a dignity of a single burial, right?

37:18

Everybody would laugh you to scorn if you were the kind of person saying, we need accolades as a ministry, as an organization.

37:26

Because we stood outside of Auschwitz, and we said, this is a horror. This is an awful thing. We really think that you need to give them warmer blankets.

37:37

Or you need to bury them and give them their own burial plot. Like everybody's saying, what are you doing?

37:42

They're killing Jews in there. They're slaughtering people in there. What kind of legislation? It's written oppression.

37:49

To turn aside the needy from justice and to rob the poor of my people of their right, that widows may be their spoil, and that they make the fatherless their prey.

37:56

You are making these fatherless children, these children abandoned by their fathers, you are making these children pray with this written oppression.

38:05

And so God says to you, and to anybody doing this, woe to you. If you don't know what that means in modern

38:12

English, that's God saying a curse on you. May you be cursed. Now you might be saying, oh, this sounds ultra -religious, and I'm not in this realm,

38:21

I'm in the political realm. Kathy, I'm a Christian. Jesus says, if you're not with me, you're against me.

38:26

My first allegiance is to him, and this is his word, you say you believe it. God says, a curse on you. A curse on you for your written oppression.

38:34

You are part of the problem, Kathy Harrod, and you will have to answer to God ultimately for how you handle the bill that actually does what you have been pretending to believe for so long.

38:45

Now, if we could, let's all go to the screen here. We could do this all day, friends, in terms of the victim mentality.

38:53

It's a lie. So the last little piece that you read,

38:59

Luke, what that's actually dealing with is legislating shame, which is a common word used in the

39:07

Bible. Basically, God uses that to say if you're actually guilty or not, often.

39:17

For instance, the woman who is sexually assaulted has no shame. Now, our world says, well, no, but I feel a lot of shame when that happened to me.

39:27

God's saying, but you're without it. Not to say that you won't ever. It's not that God says, oh, your feelings don't register with me.

39:38

I'm God. It's that he's made a declaration about whether you're innocent or guilty, whether you should be feeling shame or not.

39:49

And so what you're talking about, the very, very last component of abortion that we are working on removing is the element of shame.

40:00

So we already know that abortion is the great equalizer because it makes men and women the same.

40:07

They don't have to, in that instance, men don't have to worry about conceiving a child and then having to carry the baby for nine months and all this stuff.

40:20

So we know that abortion is already the great equalizer. So we've already accomplished that goal. We already have said, yeah, women should get abortions when they want.

40:28

And you know what? They deserve it because after all those years of being oppressed by having children, the last element that they are looking to remove is having to feel bad about it.

40:40

And like we said, there's already plenty of people who are waving that flag.

40:46

Their shame has been legislated and rationalized away long, long ago.

40:52

But the fact that someone, that a pro -life organization is, they're not, they're actually helping women to not feel bad about.

41:10

No, they are. That's the whole point of it. And that's why I said what I said earlier, which is that she can't support the bill because then she would have to look at women in the eye and say, no,

41:24

I actually, I do believe that you're wrong and I believe that you should feel shame for being a murderer.

41:35

Now we also know, I'm not saying, like we already talked about people coming to Christ that have had abortions and you know what

41:40

God says about being, about shame when you are saved.

41:47

So basically my point, I guess all of this to say, what's kind of going on in my head is that we need to stop as a culture and a world trying to legislate shame in areas where God has already said, if you are with or without shame, does that make sense?

42:05

Like, so why not? So if God says that if you kill someone and there's actually specific instances of a child being killed in the womb, that the penalty is death, that means if you commit murder, you're with shame for that.

42:24

And instead of, and so it's in effect, it's like looking up at God and being like, no,

42:30

I'm not, I'm not in shame. And I just can't even understand the type of like destruction that comes with that or the type of judgment that'll be made against that.

42:42

And it's not something that I guess you can make the claim that the pro -life industry is not purely

42:50

Christian, but it's definitely not something Christians should be doing. We should not be looking at something that God has declared wrong and say, oh no, those murderers are without shame.

43:03

That's not like, that is you totally looking, God gave you his law, it's like looking in, it's like looking at God and being like, no.

43:16

It is such a form of rebellion. Like I won't even feel bad for the murder.

43:23

I won't even feel bad for the things that my current culture says are bad.

43:28

Well, consider, it's always, I always try to make sure when I believe something or I think something,

43:35

I know we're all inconsistent in areas and we have to, we're all fallible creatures. So we have to say like, this is the ultimate standard of truth.

43:40

I got to figure out where I have my inconsistencies. So I always try to say like, if I say something, I always look into myself to say, what would somebody say in response to that?

43:48

Am I being consistent? Is this true? Like I always try to figure out, am I wrong here? Cause I'm saying it.

43:54

And so one of the ways that you can look in an argument, like someone makes like Kathy and people in general that say, well, no, she's just deceived.

44:02

She's a product of her culture. She's not guilty because she's just being told by the culture that this is okay.

44:08

One of the ways is say, okay, well check that. Would you talk that way about slavery? Like, for example, people say like, oh, look at the wickedness of man, stealing, kidnapping, and enslaving people that happened in this nation.

44:21

Not very long ago. You know, it was an awful thing, but you know what? It was cultural.

44:26

They all thought it was okay. Like people just believe that, you know, you can't really chastise them and say they were guilty.

44:33

Well, first of all, I would say no, actually they all had Bibles that said long before they were doing it, that man, stealing, kidnapping and enslaving people was worthy of death.

44:42

That it was actually a death penalty. That's by the way, what the preachers were saying against it. They were like, this is a wicked thing. These people are made in the image of God.

44:50

This is man stealing. This is kidnapping. This is enslaving. This is a death penalty thing. And people could have said at the time, yeah, but you know the areas with some of these plantations, you know, these people, they've been raised to believe this.

44:59

It's fine. You can't really chastise them for it. No, it's like you have to speak against the evil. It is sin.

45:06

It is a crime. And you can't pad the issue either when it's right before you or it's in the past by saying they're just products of their environment.

45:14

They're not really guilty of anything. No, it's still a crime. It was still a sin against God. It was still a wicked thing then.

45:19

No matter who around them taught them it was okay to do. And another example of how we don't do this in other areas of our lives, imagine the child in some rundown area.

45:30

Say it's, he's just, he's without a dad. He's in a bad area and he's got just a bad crowd around him.

45:37

And he's raised in this context where maybe he's just running the streets at night. He's got people who influence him. And he's taught because of the cultural community around him and the people who were like hanging around him and trying to get this kid, it's fine to rob, steal, and kill for what to eat, to get what you want.

45:53

He's got a little, he's got a club he's a part of and they've all taught him like it's fine to rob for our benefit.

46:00

My question is this. Does anybody say that when the kid grows up and gets legs underneath him and he robs and kills somebody that he's not really guilty?

46:10

Because from where he's from, he was taught that it's fine to rob and kill for pleasure for your own stuff.

46:17

Everybody says, you know, I understand that kid's been impacted by things. I understand, but this is still theft and murder and he's going to serve time for it.

46:25

Like he's still guilty. Understand? Well, that's based off of a foundation that the world abides by, which is that our laws and our morals are created via social construct.

46:39

And that's the same thing that tells you that, you know, women's and men's roles are a social construct.

46:44

They're not naturally occurring, right? So theft isn't a naturally occurring evil.

46:51

It's not. We as a human society have made it that way. But that's not true. So if you're a

46:56

Christian, don't live like it's a human construct because you know that it's wrong, whether a person knows about it or not.

47:10

It's a violation of God's own character. Right. And so do you actually believe that God created this world and then has a standard for it?

47:22

Or do you believe that we as humans have come up with stuff as we go and that's kind of changeable and it's subject to convention and kind of what the people of the day want.

47:35

Just make sure you're not agreeing with arguments that lean that way.

47:41

The atheists and the humanists use. And it's easy because there are the majority of the arguments you're going to hear involving pretty much any issue.

47:49

But it's important to keep an eye out for the foundation of what you claim to believe.

47:57

And if you say, if you fall in line with this human construct, societal convention type thing, you're not living in reality.

48:09

And if you're a Christian, you know what's real.

48:16

So live that way. Very good. So I know you want to play a video.

48:21

I was just going to say real quick, another passage. Obviously we all know the verse we use for an abortion now is

48:27

Proverbs 24 -11. Rescue those who are being taken away to death. Hold back those who are stumbling to the slaughter. So essentially,

48:33

Kathy, if you're listening, what you're doing is you're not doing that. You're saying I'm going to rescue some of those unless we have to call the mother a murderer.

48:44

Then I can't. And so continuing on, though, this is what I want you to hear as graciously as I can in verse 12.

48:52

It says, If you say, Behold, we did not know this. Does not he who weighs the heart perceive it? Does not he who keeps watch over your soul know it?

49:01

And will he not repay man according to his work? So Kathy, if you're listening, you will be held accountable for these children that you've had the ability to save and you have decided not to and you've persuaded others not to.

49:19

So you claim to be a Christian. You claim to love Jesus. You will be held accountable before your

49:25

God and your Savior if you continue. Well, you will be held accountable, period. But if you continue down this path, there will be more lives that are lost because of the decisions you're making.

49:34

And you'll be directly responsible for opposing equal protection for humans.

49:40

Kathy, if you can affirm that truth that you want equal protection for all humans, then this is your bill, right?

49:50

It's your bill, equal protection. Kathy, you don't. Because you are for the protection of those with Down syndrome more than you are for the children of the ignorant.

50:03

Yeah, I was giving a hypothetical. I'm trying to impress her on her state suppositions. But you see the inconsistency already.

50:10

Exactly. But honestly, do you... Like you said, we know

50:16

Kathy. And so I know she doesn't think that kids with extra chromosomes are more valuable than kids with ignorant parents.

50:26

I know that. So just start... You believe that, start acting like it. Start acting like it.

50:32

I was just going to say quickly, you mentioned her inconsistencies. What amazed me was the moment she tweeted that out on that Friday, the liberals in Arizona went after her for her inconsistency.

50:44

Oh, yeah. Because they saw it. Yeah, they could see it. They immediately pointed it out. They could see it. So, you know, Kathy, you're not just hearing it from us.

50:51

You're hearing it from the liberals as well. Your blatant inconsistency. So here's what we need everyone to do, though, that's watching, that hears this.

50:59

You need to go to azpolicy .org. So that's CAPS, Center for Arizona Policy's website, azpolicy .org.

51:07

Go to the contact page and email them and tell them, tell

51:12

Kathy that she needs to be consistent. Yeah, Center for Arizona Policy, the website is...

51:18

azpolicy .org. azpolicy .org. Go to the contact section, contact, and just call her in a very respectful way to be consistent to support

51:27

HB 2650. Okay, so just real fast, guys, we could do this for days, but I want to show you this.

51:33

Thank you guys for watching. Please share this content. It is vital. I want you to see that what Kathy's position is today, it is inconsistent, and some of that inconsistency is not just through a fault of her own.

51:46

It is because the pro -life industry is fundamentally not Christian in commitment, and it has inconsistent methodology, and it's coming from the top.

51:57

Okay, so this is from our film, Babies Are Still Murdered Here. I want to just play this clip so you guys can see this to see that this is not just Kathy's position.

52:18

It's absolutely fine right there. Sure, I'm the director of American Victims of Abortion for the

52:36

National Eye to Life Committee, and that is one of our several outreach programs. It was developed in the early 1980s by women like myself who have been through an abortion experience alongside of sometimes the fathers of aborted children.

52:50

Can I just stop there for a second? Is that how we need to teach mothers to talk about their abortions?

52:59

Killing their own children. I've been through an abortion experience. What? I'm wondering why the women at Apologia Church or other sisters in Christ that I know globally who have had this in their past,

53:13

I wonder why they don't talk about it. Like that. I mean, they come so many times.

53:19

I've had so many women around the world come to me in tears, in gratitude about the grace of God given to them in Christ because they killed their child.

53:30

They're honest. They don't say, you know, an abortion experience, victims of abortion, the mothers.

53:36

It's just, it's an entire new perspective put over this issue of abortion.

53:43

And I want to just say, historically, it was not the perspective of the Christian church. It's something that has happened to us.

53:50

We've been indoctrinated. And we are really a public, if you will, a public witness to what we know about the experience of abortion from the inside.

54:02

The pro -life movement has a lot of women who are active in it who've had abortions.

54:09

And they very much argue that the mother who got the abortion is also a victim.

54:18

Hey ladies, I'm Jeff. What's your name? Hi, I'm Jensen. Jensen. Bree. And Simone. All right, great to meet you guys.

54:24

So, why are you guys here? I'm more of like it being a woman's choice. I think the choice to have sex is both men and women.

54:31

The choice to carry a child kind of more falls on the woman because the man can totally just leave at any point.

54:38

And like, if we're going to make abortions illegal and have single women now raising children that maybe they never even wanted to have by themselves, or maybe it's hard for them to have that child because of like mental illnesses or being raped or something like that.

54:51

So, for me, it's more of a choice rather than a political viewing and wanting to murder babies, obviously.

54:57

So, you mentioned that if a child has to be raised by a single mother or it's disabled that we should be able to kill it.

55:05

We're so advanced in technology and science that we know ahead of time before the baby's even born what conditions they could possibly have.

55:11

So, to be able to prevent that ahead of time, especially if you're a low -income family, you're not going to be able to take care of that baby if they come out with any kind of birth defects.

55:17

And there's no government assistance either to help that parent take care of it. So, again, but foundationally, what you're saying is that if it's disabled and we discover it's disabled in the womb, we should kill the disabled children.

55:28

I'm sorry, I meant mental health in the mother, in the parents, like people who are just not suitable to be having kids and don't want to have kids for that.

55:36

Okay, I'm going to answer. Thank you for clarifying that. But it sounds like that's what you were saying. If we discover in the womb, through technology, that they're going to be disabled or something's wrong, we should be able to kill that child.

55:46

I want to say... So, it's the thing. I don't think there's no programs to help this parent or these parents out when the baby's born.

55:51

So, it's like you're kind of leaving this parent up to like, you have to keep it until it's born and then you've got to figure it out yourself. Like, we're going to be in control of your body until it's born and then once you have it, that's all you.

55:59

And I think that's kind of an unfair... I do actually agree with you that we need to make sure that we're caring for women, for mothers and fathers, for children.

56:07

We actually need to. I think we're required, and love would require that sort of a thing. But I think foundationally, we're not really talking about that in terms of the abortion discussion because what we're talking about is, the argument is, is if something's wrong with the child in the womb, we should be able to kill it.

56:20

And we're saying that if it's raised in poverty, we should be able to kill it. I don't think...

56:25

So, I think that's an extreme way to put it, but I guess like... This was such a great interview.

56:32

The choice to carry a child, raising children, have that child before the baby's even born. We'll take care of that baby.

56:37

We need to be having kids and don't want to have kids. I love that that one girl's caught in inconsistency laugh.

56:44

Yeah, and at the end... When you catch her, she's like... Well, at the end of that interview

56:50

I had with those ladies, I just asked directly, and I said, so you do believe that she should have the right to murder her child?

56:56

She said, yes. That's what we're here for. Exactly. Here's another one. This is from Babies Are Murdered Here, part one.

57:03

Here are some of Kathy Harrod's victims. You have no right. You have no right.

57:47

Do some f***ing f***ing stupidest s***.

58:02

There's only one word for abortion. It's murder. Abortion, in every instance... So there's just a little clip from Babies Are Murdered Here.

58:09

I want to point everyone to this website. I'm actually going to show you on the screen here. Go to this site.

58:15

I think it's very helpful. I started using the hashtag Not A Victim years ago when I would have conversations with women who would just say, yeah,

58:22

I know I'm killing a baby and I'm allowed to kill a baby. And I would just get other videos and I would say hashtag Not A Victim. So thank

58:27

God, people actually created a website called Not A Victim. They've done a great job. Not -a -victim .com

58:34

I would have encouraged them just to do it. Not a victim. Instead of the dashes. Not -a -victim .com

58:40

But if you go there to the video section, the video section is what you need to see. There's constantly videos being added of actual videos right outside the abortion facilities of the mothers who were going into the abortion facilities to kill their children.

58:55

These are Kathy Harrod's victims. It's Carol Tobias' victims outside the abortion mills.

59:02

And let me just tell you, they know what they're doing. They know what they're doing. And we have women that go in there and they say, when we say we'll adopt your baby, they yell back at us.

59:11

They say, I couldn't give a baby up for adoption. And then they go in to kill their child. They know what they're doing.

59:17

And again, mothers are going in there sometimes and they're grieving over what they're about to do.

59:22

I know. And we're in tears pleading, please don't do this. We'll do anything. Just talk to us for 30 seconds.

59:29

We'll give you anything you need. We're like, literally, you got to see the Christians out on the sidewalk with us. There's times where people are there.

59:36

It's like their first time out there and they are like a blubbering mess. They're like, I don't know if I can handle this.

59:42

Because they're watching women either defiantly going in, going, that's right. I'm killing my baby. I have a right to.

59:48

Or they're watching women going in there with their boyfriends who are, and they're both crying. The boyfriend and the girl are crying as they're going in to kill their child and rejecting any help.

59:59

They know what they're doing. Oh no. And yeah, I was just going to say that that's, when you, if you're in a moral predicament,

01:00:10

I suppose, you just feeling really bad about it.

01:00:16

And then making the wrong decision doesn't, there's no innocence in that.

01:00:26

Because there are very, sometimes it is very, very hard to make the right decision, especially in a world that tells you you'll be a martyr for killing your baby because it's going to create a better life for you.

01:00:38

So you doing the hard thing now saved that baby from a horrible life and you from a horrible life.

01:00:46

But there is, there's nothing to, that's not something that should be protected.

01:00:55

And it sounds, it may even sound a little bit harsh, but if you know what's wrong and you fail to do it, you were a coward in that moment.

01:01:06

And you let it happen. You did it. You are also a part of what happened there.

01:01:16

And that is, I think what I just said is fundamentally what the pro -life movement does not want to say.

01:01:24

They don't want to, they don't want to look at the seemingly innocent people that went in shedding tears and say you did the wrong thing.

01:01:35

But you have to say that to people because obviously they know it's the wrong thing and they're still being swayed to do it.

01:01:43

So you need to be, and that's just another reason why it's important to be out there. There are so many women, just from personal stories that I've heard, women that knew they were doing the wrong thing and they threw up some weird, weird prayer to God that was like, just show me a sign if, some weird sort of secular looking prayer that God used and they just show me a sign and then someone's literally standing out in front of a clinic with a sign and they go, oh, okay, there's my sign.

01:02:21

So they knew, driving to the clinic, they knew this was wrong and they needed someone to tell them to stop.

01:02:27

So here's the thing with murder, just because someone doesn't tell you to stop doesn't mean you get a free pass. Nobody stopped me.

01:02:36

And that is what the pro -life movement is afraid to tell you. So if for some reason you are thinking about getting an abortion and you're watching this, just be courageous and don't do what you're not supposed to do.

01:02:50

Thank you for that, Joy. Speaking of that, I'm going to give everyone a warning right now. I'm about to do something we've never done on this show before.

01:02:59

Because this issue is so vital, because we have something unprecedented happening in the state of Arizona with a bill for equal protection for these humans,

01:03:07

I believe that this is absolutely necessary for me to show because we are engaging with Kathy Herod and the pro -life industry's inconsistent methodology that is leading to more dead children.

01:03:21

And so I need to do this. This is the sort of thing that General Patton, I believe, did when everything happened in Germany and they saw the horrors of some of these concentration camps.

01:03:34

They forced the Germans who were literally living with houses around these concentration camps.

01:03:42

They forced those Germans. They forced them. The Americans forced them to take a tour through this museum of death.

01:03:50

And they forced them to bury the bodies. Yeah, they made them. He said, you stood idly by while this took place. You're going to see what they were doing.

01:03:56

You're going to see what you ignored. You're going to handle this. Same thing with slavery. We show pictures.

01:04:03

There's this awful picture of this black slave with his back. Have you seen it? It's horrific.

01:04:09

That picture needs to be in books. You see the brutality. Why the pictures of the dead

01:04:14

Jewish bodies? Because it reminds the world, don't ever let this happen again. Why the pictures of the emaciated

01:04:21

Jews? Because it tells the world, don't ever let this happen again. It's grotesque.

01:04:26

It's ugly. You give the pictorial portrayals because you're telling everyone, don't ever let this happen again.

01:04:33

I'm going to play you a video from people we know over at the Center for Bioethical Reform. Just to give you the reference later for the website, it's abortionknow .org.

01:04:43

I want to warn you right now, and brothers and sisters, I'm not kidding you right now. If you have children around right now, do not let them see this.

01:04:53

Don't. Think, well maybe. Don't. If you are weak and squeamish to any degree with the portrayal of actual death,

01:05:05

I would also say if you've recently had a baby or lost a baby or, you know, just...

01:05:12

Do not take this lightly. I'm giving you a very, very fair warning. I'm giving you a moment now to turn away.

01:05:21

I'll tell you, if you want to keep us on, don't turn us off. If you want to keep... There's no sound, just picture stuff.

01:05:28

If you want to just turn away for a minute so I can tell you when we're back. But for those of you guys that need to see what's actually taking place,

01:05:36

I'm going to show you right now a video of actual abortions taking place. These are the real victims.

01:05:43

And you might be saying, why do this? Why show this? Because right now we have a bill to protect these babies from this ever happening again.

01:05:49

Kathy Herod is one of the people in the industry stopping it. Kathy, you're going to be held accountable.

01:05:56

You're going to be held accountable. Here it is. I'll give you guys a five second warning.

01:06:02

I'm about to play the video. I want to encourage you to pay attention if you can.

01:06:09

Pay attention. Because if you're not... If you're not engaged enough on this issue, you need to be.

01:06:16

And if you need to see what's taking place, then so be it. Please watch. And again, everybody,

01:06:22

I'll tell you when we're coming back from the video. It's very short. But I want to warn you right now. This is serious stuff.

01:06:28

And do not let children see this. Five, four, three, two, one.

01:07:29

So, that... We're back. You guys can look back or whatever you need to do at this point to continue the conversation with us.

01:07:42

HB 2650. That's the bill. Equal protection for all humans in the state of Arizona. That's what it's about.

01:07:48

Equal protection. And I'm just going to read you this. Because it's my response to what

01:07:53

Kathy said. Kathy, this was my response. And it's on your page. So I know you saw it. But I want everyone else to hear it.

01:07:59

When she said that women are victims in this and she doesn't want any penalties for mothers who killed their children.

01:08:06

I said, Kathy Harrod has been taking money from Arizona for years pretending to be pro -life. Here she confesses to several things.

01:08:11

Number one. She doesn't really believe that abortion is the unjust taking of human life. She doesn't believe the mother or father who brings her child in for dismemberment is guilty.

01:08:21

She is compromised and inconsistent. The devastating result is that children will continue to die because of her compromise.

01:08:27

She doesn't believe humans in the womb deserve equal protection under the law. She doesn't want any penalty for parents who kill them.

01:08:34

Now watch. Just real fast. Let's say I said that in a conversation to Kathy. I said, Kathy, you don't really believe that humans in the womb deserve equal protection under the law.

01:08:41

What if she said to me, yes, I do. Which bill would she have to support in order to actually substantiate her claim that she does believe they deserve equal protection?

01:08:51

Because watch this. If a one -year -old was dismembered by the mother in the state of Arizona, would

01:08:59

Kathy Harrod argue that she is a victim? No.

01:09:06

You see, this is where you get pushed to consistency, Kathy. This is where you get pushed to consistency. Because if you would say that a mother who slaughters her child outside the womb deserves some sort of criminal penalty, then you ought to believe, if you believe in equal protection and that it's human life from conception, that the woman also would need to suffer some sort of criminal penalty for slaughtering her child in the womb.

01:09:31

But the problem is, Kathy, is that you've bought into an inconsistent and unchristian methodology with the pro -life industry.

01:09:40

In other words, let me just say to you as respectfully as I possibly can, Kathy, Kathy, you are not approaching this issue like a

01:09:47

Christian, as a Christian, with a Christian worldview. And you're not approaching it, even if somebody were to say,

01:09:52

I'm doing it neutrally, you're not even approaching it in terms of a bioethical, consistent, systematic, scientific perspective.

01:10:00

If it's human, it needs equal protection. Number three, she isn't approaching this from a

01:10:07

Christian worldview. I said that, though she pretends to and is taking money pretending to. If the woman who engage in this aren't guilty, then there is no reason to offer them the grace of God in the gospel for, something we already said here, no forgiveness necessary for killing humans in the womb.

01:10:20

That's Kathy's perspective. The woman's a victim. She's a victim, the baby's a victim. So there's no forgiveness necessary for killing the children in the womb.

01:10:29

There's no shame. No shame, no gospel for her in that area. No gospel necessary. You're not guilty.

01:10:34

She doesn't need to be forgiven. That's right. She has no meaningful intention to truly end it. Kathy, please hear this.

01:10:40

You have no meaningful intention to end abortion. You don't. But she'll still take our money pretending to.

01:10:48

She is now opposing the bill that articulates the view of humanity in the womb that she has long pretended to believe.

01:10:53

Kathy, here it is, ready? You, and we're gonna wrap the show up, I guess. Here, we have so much we could do. We'll probably add, we're gonna do more.

01:10:59

Yeah. Yeah. Kathy, you say that you believe that it is human life from conception.

01:11:06

That's what you tell people. That's what you raise money for. That's what Christians in Arizona have been giving money to you for.

01:11:15

You say you believe it's human from conception. Okay, Kathy, it's human from conception. Does it deserve equal protection?

01:11:22

If you say yes, then that means anybody involved in the killing of the human being is guilty, not a victim, okay?

01:11:31

Now, what do we call the unjustified killing of a human being with malice of forethought?

01:11:38

It's an unjustified killing of a human being with malice of forethought. We call that murder. So if it's human from conception, and it's the unjustified killing of a human being with malice of forethought, it's murder, and therefore ought to be seen as a crime.

01:11:54

So, Kathy, HB 2650 is your bill. It's the bill that you've been raising money for.

01:12:00

Now, you didn't present it, and it doesn't matter who presented it. What matters is that it's here, and you can now protect the children in the state of Arizona by actually pointing to it and saying, that's the consistent bill.

01:12:12

It needs to be upheld. I will say one more word here. We can probably address this next time. I'd love to have the man in the studio.

01:12:18

Boy, here's the invitation to him. I'd love to have him in. Where is he? Bram Resnick was one of the guys with the media who was there the day.

01:12:26

Yeah, we'll get into this. We'll get into this. I want to really unpack this. Bram, I want to make a public announcement. I'd love to have you on our radio program here,

01:12:34

Apologia Radio, to have a discussion like we did outside of the rally itself. He is talking about the fact, he loves to, he was trying to get me to say it and say it and say it, and I was like,

01:12:46

I've already answered you three times with context. You want women to get the death penalty, and what

01:12:52

I actually said, I'm going to say it publicly for everyone here, is that you're talking about two different issues.

01:12:57

One, defining the crime. Human life, unjustified taking of human life, it's a crime in the state of Arizona.

01:13:05

It ought to be. The question about what kind of penalty somebody gets is actually a question for the judicial system.

01:13:11

That's a question for judges. Separate question, right? It always has to go to that. The judge looks at the merits of the case, looks at the evidence, and says, what kind of penalty should come down for this?

01:13:22

And someone says, you guys are looking for the death penalty for women. I do believe that say if a man breaks through the window of a young girl, kidnaps her, rapes her and mutilates her body and dumps her into a trash can,

01:13:35

I do believe that true justice would say that man gets a death penalty. By the way, I'm giving you the story of an interrogation

01:13:41

I just listened to. It's an hour and a half long interrogation. The man did that. And I do believe that justice would mean that guy gets a death penalty for doing that to that girl.

01:13:51

So I do believe - Is it because you feel that way? Or - God's word says so. And that's a consistent application of justice.

01:13:58

Okay. And so - And that's the same standard that says that she's without shame. Right, right.

01:14:03

So watch this. When people address this issue, understand that we're talking about two different issues. We're talking about defining what's in the womb, human life, and saying equal protection, meaning it's a crime.

01:14:14

When you are asking the question about the death penalty, understand this. The death penalty already exists in Arizona.

01:14:20

It's already part of the homicide law. If you've got a problem with the death penalty, that's a separate debate over the death penalty in Arizona.

01:14:28

What we're talking about is definitional and actually offering equal protection for humans in the womb. But if you want to talk about the death penalty issue,

01:14:35

I've announced it. I'm not ashamed of it. It's from Genesis to Revelation. Yes, if a human being takes another human being's life with malice aforethought in an unjustified manner, it's -

01:14:44

God says it's worthy of the death penalty. However, and I said this to you, Bram, and interestingly, you didn't put it anywhere in here.

01:14:51

I said to you that I don't trust the American system of justice today to be able to deal out the death penalty because we don't even uphold proper standards of evidence today.

01:15:02

There are people today who are put away for murder based on one suspicious piece of evidence.

01:15:08

That's immoral. I don't want that. And I don't want judges who will actually put somebody on death row for suspicious evidence,

01:15:16

I don't want them handing out the death penalty. We're not there yet. So two separate categories - I also don't want judges who give rapists 10 months probation to be handing out the death penalty.

01:15:27

Yeah, yeah, exactly. No, thank you very much. That's another good example of injustice. We're solving one issue at a time.

01:15:34

But do I believe that the mother - I was just watching this story the other day. Now, it's an older case.

01:15:39

There's so many. There's a woman who put her baby into the microwave. There's a woman who boiled her children in a pot. There's a woman who drowned her two six -year -olds in the bathtub.

01:15:46

But there was a case of a woman, a very famous case. There's all kinds of stuff even popping up today, documentaries about it.

01:15:52

She was just this very self -centered, just horrible woman.

01:15:58

And she wanted to be with another man, and he didn't like her kids. And so she drove the kids out to a road one day on the road in the middle of nowhere.

01:16:05

She gets out of the car. She pulls the back of her trunk. She gets her gun, sits back down in the driver's seat, turns around and shoots all three of her children in the back of the car.

01:16:14

Now, question. Should she have gotten the death penalty? My answer to that is, sorry.

01:16:19

My answer to that is yes. She should have gotten the death penalty for that.

01:16:26

I believe justice would be death penalty for a mother who slaughters her three children. Yeah, I don't have a problem agreeing with that.

01:16:34

My question to Bram, when I asked him the question, like the guy who climbs into the girl's bedroom and like, you know, kidnaps her, rapes her, mutilates her, throws her away.

01:16:43

Should he get the death penalty? He was like, well, you know, I don't know about the evidence sort of a thing.

01:16:48

And I was just like, no, no, it's true. He did it. He admits to it. You know, the mom does it. She, she admits to it.

01:16:53

He goes, well, that's basing the judge. I said, that's what we're saying. That's what we're saying.

01:16:59

If somebody is truly guilty of murder, it's going to go to the judge. The judge is going to make the determination as to what the penalty is going to be.

01:17:05

But the point is with this bill, is it's human life, unjustified taking of human life. And what's that mean? It's under the homicide code of Arizona.

01:17:12

What's that mean? Equal protection. Now, Cathy, again, if you believe it's human, fully human at conception, worthy of protection, this is your bill.

01:17:21

Please support it. Final words? Um, that awful video we watched just made me think of something. What? They're doing abortions up to 24 weeks here, right?

01:17:30

Last I heard, somewhere around 24, which means technically 26, because they added a two week buffer.

01:17:36

I'm just, I'm just thinking, I watched that video because my wife's 23 weeks. Well, she'll be 24 weeks pregnant

01:17:42

Thursday. And our son last night was kicking her so hard, you could see it, like her stomach doing this.

01:17:52

And I'm just like, it just angers me. Just thinking about that, with the video of that, I'm just thinking like, how could you possibly say that that's not a human?

01:17:59

It just, it angers me to no end. Yeah, we just did a funeral last week. I just officiated a funeral.

01:18:07

We were all in attendance for a funeral last week for a baby at a graveside.

01:18:13

That's how you treat human beings in the womb. That's the proper way to do it. There were tears, there was pain.

01:18:20

That's what you do with babies who die in the womb. You treat them with dignity, they're valued, they're loved, and that's what you do.

01:18:27

So Joy, any final words? And not just when they're wanted. Not just when they're wanted.

01:18:33

Very good. All right, everybody go to the website I pointed you to, encourage Kathy to be consistent. Go to, do we have it up now?

01:18:40

HP? Yeah. What is it again? HP2650 .com. HP2650 .com. I'm headed to Oklahoma next

01:18:48

Monday to work with our guys from Free the States on their bill to abolish and criminalize abortion in the state of Oklahoma.

01:18:54

We have much more coming, guys. Thank you all so much for supporting us. Go to Redeem2020 .com

01:19:02

to financially support the work that we're doing. It is just now, February, and we've got two states we're working in to criminalize and abolish abortion, and we're saving babies every single day.

01:19:13

This is not the only thing we're going to talk about this year, but right now there's some big stuff happening. For all of you guys who have given towards end abortion now, this is the fruit of your giving.

01:19:22

Thank you for it. If you haven't given yet, go to Redeem2020 .com to give, and I can say with full integrity,

01:19:29

I don't ever want to take any more giving for this again. I want it to be done, and I want us to walk away from this with praise and joyfulness.

01:19:37

I don't want another penny coming to Apology of Church to end abortion, because I want it over with and done.

01:19:43

I hate asking for it. I truly do. You can ask Luke. I hate asking for it. But for the sake of these children, we're going to until we end this and criminalize it, and then we're walking away from it.

01:19:54

So if you're ever going to give money to Center for Arizona Policy, don't give it to them anymore. Give it to Apology of Church.

01:20:00

We'll make sure that it actually goes towards ending abortion. And that's the truth. So, Joy the