MSL: May 7, 2024

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The following program is recorded content created by The Truth Network. It's Matt Slick Live!

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Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, found online at karm .org.

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When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick Live! For answers, taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877 -207 -2276.

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Here's Matt Slick. All right, everyone, welcome to the show. It's me, Matt Slick. You're listening to Matt Slick Live!

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And let's see, today's date is May 7th, 2024.

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For the podcasters, I hope you all are having a good time today and that you'll be listening and enjoying wherever you are.

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And you may notice my voice is a little bit better, just creeping up. It'll get better and better.

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I had a really, really bad head cold. Man, just one of those, you know, dinosaur -size head colds.

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At any rate, so there you go. If you want to give me a call, all you have to do is dial 877 -207 -2276.

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I want to hear from you. Give me a call. All right, all right, all right, let's see what we've got here. I'm working on SEO stuff, search engine optimization stuff, and I've been playing around with some things, trying to figure stuff out.

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I don't know if this is happening everywhere, but at least here on the

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CARM site, the traffic is slowly decreasing over the years. It could be because of a combination of things, one of them being competition, and that's fine.

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The other is the liberalness of Google. They don't like, nor do they favor, conservative stuff that attacks the alphabet mob and things like that.

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So there could be that. And, you know, it could be just that, well, people just aren't on the net as much.

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They're doing videos more. And so, anyway, not a big deal, but we're working on stuff to try and make the site even more prevalent and relevant.

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And I'm working on a, getting ready to do some videos, different kind of videos. I'll be doing, continuing the one -minute videos here pretty soon, but also some stuff for just the video work and comparison.

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I got an idea. I haven't started on it yet, video -wise, but I'm going to work up, it's going to be interesting.

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I plan to, anyway, work up an eschatological position that I hold.

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And I don't know how long it'll take, maybe 20 minutes to go through it. It'll be a video. That'd be quite long. And go through, step by step by step, the things that I hold to, and I'm trying to find a name for the particular view that I hold.

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Now, my view, I can just tell you, is, how do

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I say this? It's not, I don't believe anyone else holds it. Now, that's a warning.

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However, I have told people a few times, this is my position, and they say, oh yeah, we agree with that. So, I've not heard anybody say that they hold to the same position, yet it turns out that people seem to be holding to the same position.

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So, I'm curious about that, and when I get this thing going, because what

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I hold to is that we're in the millennial reign of Christ right now, that we're in his kingdom, and that Satan's been bound, if he's not already loosed,

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I don't know, and that the wicked are going to be taken before the good. And I've got scriptures for all of this, and it's not like me stretching them.

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When I show people these things, they say, wow, that's what it says, it's right there. And so, the generally held position of our millennialism is a liberal kind of a view that the kingdom of God is spiritual, and that it's kind of in heaven, it's all spiritual thing, and stuff like that.

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So, I don't believe, I believe it's in heaven, but I also believe it's here on earth, and I believe we're kings and priests, and I believe that Jesus is reigning.

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Well, people say, well, then why is it not going so well? Because we're not doing our jobs. That's what I believe.

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And one of the things that's an interesting comment to make is in Matthew 16, 18, Jesus says, the gates of hell will not prevail against the church.

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Well, I've been thinking about this. You see, most Christians, now I'm going to exaggerate, you know, in the spiritual warfare thing, they walk up to the gates, and they go, oh, no, gates, run, run, there's gates.

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Gates don't do anything, they're defensive, and the Bible says that the gates of hell will not prevail against the church.

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That means the church is being aggressive. It means the church is knocking down the gates of hell. That's what it's supposed to be doing, but it's not doing it.

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Instead, what I see is a lot of churches just babysitting people, telling them ear -tickling doctrines like Jesus had to be born again, or Jesus died to make you healthy and wealthy, you know, just maybe maybe pablum, immature theological stuff designed to tickle the ears and to weaken the spiritual growth of true

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Christians and true believers. So I don't believe any of that crud that's being taught by people like Joyce Meyer and Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, and, oh, they, you know, passed away,

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Kenneth Hagin did, and Benny Hinn and these charlatans, Joel Osteen, you know, these guys need to be corrected, and it's one of the disadvantages, incidentally, of Protestantism.

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I'm not saying Protestantism is all wrong and that Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy are right, but there's an advantage inside of Orthodoxy as well as Catholicism in that it is a monolithic kind of a system where if someone does something, they can be kicked out and there's a correction that can be made.

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Well, in Protestantism, that's not nearly the case because you can go from this denomination across the street to the next denomination and keep going to church.

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So it's not a cross -pollinating kind of a thing, though it does occur. I do know of, I believe it does occur, anyway, that one denomination will contact another.

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I've heard of this happening. Let's say this person is excommunicated for this reason, they're going to your church now, and I've been involved with that.

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So it's one of the disadvantages of that. So that we can have these people like Joel Osteen, let's see,

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Joyce Meyer, Kenneth Copeland, Charles Capps, who just preach, they preach foolishness.

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Now, a lot of times they don't, you know, and I say this because a lot of times they'll say good things. People go, oh, that works, that works, that works, but when it comes to some of the essentials of the

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Christian faith, oh man, they get into blasphemy, and I mean serious blasphemy, and they have no business doing what they're doing, preaching and teaching, because they shouldn't be doing that if they're going to teach blasphemy.

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Well, there's not enough oomph in the churches today to take care of the heresies inside of the church.

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Now, there are churches that exercise discipline that do tackle these kind of things within their denominations, but it's just across the board, it's just not as effective as it needs to be.

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That's just one of the disadvantages of the Protestant fracturing of multiple denominations.

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It's a problem. But nevertheless, so my eschological view,

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I've got a long way off the topic there, is different, and I do believe that we are in the millennial reign of Christ now, and people say that cannot be, but I'm going to put this out,

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I'm going to show stuff, and when I've done this before, and I've shown people my position, they've gone, man, you know, that's good.

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They're really thinking it through, and you know, I've shown them things, and I say this is what it says right here.

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And so I'm trying to come up with a name for my view of amillennialism, like present kingdom amillennialism.

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That's the only thing I really think of that might work, present kingdom, because, or realized amillennialism, in that we realize that the kingdom of God is here and now, and that we have certain rights as the children of God, and that we are obligated to use them, and fight against the ungodliness that's out there.

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I really believe in fighting against ungodliness. I do. Now, if you're just driving in your car, you can't see my face, there's my face.

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Oh, yes, we should be doing that, that's a stern facial expression I just gave.

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Now, what'll probably happen is, my enemies, because they watch my shows sometimes, take that facial expression and do a meme.

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They've already done that with some other stuff, you know, take a, you know, expression and then they'll make it. This is what matchlick really is all about.

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So it's a lot of problem there. At any rate, so, you know, realized amillennialism, or present,

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I don't know, present kingdom amillennialism, or concrete amillennialism, or slick, slick amillennialism, that would be bad.

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That just doesn't work. So Joanne said, what a face. So, I don't know, maybe you've got suggestions, you know,

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Owen, we can talk. Owen says, I miss Matt's Batman voice.

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Well, sorry, let me get back to my real voice, which is almost there, I'm almost back to my real voice right now, so it's a little bit deeper than normal.

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Matt sounds like a, sounds, see, a bit better, that's right. And I'm reading the text, which reminds me, if you want to join in on the text, you can watch the show, you can just go to rumble .com

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forward slash mattslicklive, rumble, that's a video thing like YouTube, and forward slash mattslicklive, and you can do that.

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I think I do it on, Laura, isn't it true, you can text me in the private chat, isn't it true that you can do the same thing in YouTube, forward slash mattslicklive, and then they can also get in there and watch the videos and chat, and put text in, and things like that.

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She says, yes, so it's just mattslick, not hyphen live, just mattslicklive, so you can do that there as well.

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A lot of exciting fun, oh, both, both workouts, right, good, thanks, Laura's awesome, and like mentioning people who help me every now and then, like Charlie Spine, who's got his finger over his lips as he's in deep concentration, paying attention to everything

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I say, see, that's his problem, it is a problem for him, he has to actually listen to me, so that he knows what articles to put in, so he's forced to really listen to everything

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I say, which for some people could be torturous, but Charlie, you know, he's known me for so long, we've known each other for, since 1980, so over 44 years, either 79 or 80, we just lost count, but I've known him a long time, so, and then the ladies who work with me, like Joanne, she does the prayer ministry, and she runs the clubhouse thing, and then we have

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Laura, does all kinds of other stuff, she's great too, and they help, they help a lot, they really do, and we need more help, we need more volunteers, we need more volunteers,

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I am, I'm so busy, I'm whining, I'm so,

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I've got too much to do, so that kind of thing, so I'm teaching myself SEO stuff,

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I have to teach myself video work, I have a new thing I have to learn, how to remove background stuff inside of Vegas 21, so that I can just film myself sitting right here, and remove the chair, remove everything else,

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I gotta teach myself how to do that, I have AI stuff that we're gonna be working on, I gotta do that, just a lot to do, you know, and while we're trying to get the website to be more better, and more fastly good, and things like that, so there you go, whew, man, you can tell

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I'm feeling a little bit better, alright, hey, let's get on the line here with Dre, from Mississippi, Dre, I guess that's your name, welcome, you're on the air.

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Yeah, oh, thank you, I would like for you to share a little light on Joel 228,

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Joel 228? Yeah, I don't believe in women preaching our pastor, but a lot of the time, people will go to that verse, and use

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Joel 228 to classify, or try to make reason that they will be able to preach, but I would like for you to explain that, and say a little light on that for me, if you don't mind.

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Sure, yeah, no problem, in Joel 228, and actually in 29, but it will come about in this, that I'll pour out my spirit on all mankind, and your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions, even on the male and female servants,

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I'll pour out my spirit on those days, so it's a prophecy, and it's fulfilled, and this is the thing that they have to understand, it's fulfilled in Acts chapter 117, or 217, excuse me, 217 and 18, and those verses are actually quoted directly, and that's what it says, but this is what was spoken through the prophet

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Joel, so right then and there, what happened, the spirit is poured out, and the manifestation of it is the charismatic gifts, because they're speaking in tongues, and then in Acts 238, it says, you know, you get baptized, you receive the gift of the

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Holy Spirit, and the gift of the Holy Spirit is in the context here, speaking in tongues, and in Acts, I'll get to this quickly, in Acts 10, 44 -48, they receive the gift of the

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Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues, glorifying God, and then they get baptized, so this is the manifestation of the charismata, that's what's going on, so hold on, we'll get right back, we'll work on this some more.

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Hey folks, we'll be right back after these messages, please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276, here's

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Matt Slick. Alright everybody, welcome back to the show, let's get back on with Dre, Dre are you still there buddy?

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I'm still here. I know I went really fast, because I knew the break was coming up, so let me kind of get to some more of this.

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When people go to an Old Testament verse like this, and they say, this is why women can be pastors and elders, and then what they're doing is ignoring the specific instruction that Paul the

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Apostle gave, about the church, and how people are to behave and conduct themselves in the household of God, which is the church, which he specifically states in 1

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Peter 3, 15. They ignore what 1 Peter 3 says, and Titus chapter 1 says, and what they're doing, is they are committing a form of idolatry.

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What I mean by that is, they are then raising to the level of truth, their own opinion, and they're twisting

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God's word to do this, and they're not bowing to the truth of God's word, and who God is, and what he's revealed in his word.

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So it's a form of idolatry, it's pride, in this, now I'm not saying they're idolaters, they're not saved, but they don't realize what they're doing, and they need to repent, they need to stop, and women are not to be pastors and elders, nor deacons, in the church, because it's not, these are offices that are not for the women, it's for the men.

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They need to do this, they need to step up and act like men, okay? Are you there?

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Yes sir, yes sir. Okay. Yes sir. So, that's what needs to happen. So to use that verse, it's a verse out of context, in Joel 2, 28 and 29, it's out of context.

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And they often do that. And I'll just say this again, here we go again. I've been doing radio for 21 years now, 21, 22,

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I forgot which 21 I think. And so I'll just make the offer again,

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I'm willing to debate a qualified individual, a pastor, an elder of a church, something like that, denominational head on can women be pastors and elders according to the

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Bible. I've offered this debate many, many, many, many times, no one's ever taken me up on it, in probably 20 years of doing radio.

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I've been doing 20 years of radio, five days a week, basically right about there, I think. And 19 or 20, but at any rate,

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I did two years where I did one day a week. So 24, 20, 25, yeah, 19 years full, five days a week and two years, so I've done 21 years of radio.

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But at any rate, so the thing is, I'll just, that's a challenge and no one's ever called me up.

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No one's ever, that I'm aware of, ever said, yeah, I'll debate you on it. No one. Why? Because I got the

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Bible on my side. They don't want to submit to scripture. Right. That's exactly right.

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So in a summary, what were you saying about what's, I mean, what's the summary of Joel 2 .28?

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It just, that came in fulfillment over at chapter two, right?

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So that's what it really means. Yes. But there's more to it. So let me open up a file and, uh, because I have lots of outlines, lots of files, and this is my file of baptism because in this issue of baptism is the spirit that is poured.

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I did research on this and let me see if I can find out where this,

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I'll find all the links here. So let's see terms, logistics, baptism.

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Okay. All right. So now when I go to pour, we see that, for example, in Acts 10, 44 through 48, the gift of the

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Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. We see that the

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Holy Spirit is poured. And the Old Testament prophesies about this. So in Isaiah 32, 15, until the spirit is poured,

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Isaiah 44, three, I will pour out my spirit on your offspring. Ezekiel 39, 29, for I will,

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I will have poured out my spirit in the house of Israel. And then Joel 2 .28, 29, we have

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Acts 2 .17 that I will pour out my spirit on all mankind Acts 2 .33,

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the promise of the Holy Spirit. He has poured forth. I already went to Acts 10 .45

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and Titus 3 .5 -6, verse six, the spirit whom he poured out upon us richly through Christ.

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So the pouring forth, this is how the spirit is, is mentioned as arriving by being poured.

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And what's interesting about this is that when you go to, for example, you know, just get into this and cause problems for people.

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When you go to Acts 1 .5, John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the

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Holy Spirit. So what does the word baptized mean here? Does it mean immersion?

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So if we say John immersed you with water, but you'll be immersed with the Holy Spirit, that doesn't work.

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Because we know that the Holy Spirit is poured. That's how the Bible talks about him coming.

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That's how the Bible says is prophesied that he'll come. So how about this? John poured baptized with water.

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You'll be poured upon with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit. Okay, I got it.

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Poured. Okay. Okay. Not upon. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I was going to say one more thing.

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And you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you. That's just three verses later,

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Acts 1 .5. But anyway, okay, go ahead. Okay. I can understand that.

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But the poured, now this, you're talking about that, that the arrival of the

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Holy Spirit, right? Yep. He's poured. Okay. That's how he's said to be, you know.

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Of course, he's not poured, he's like a substance, but that's how the wording is. Right.

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Okay. Another part where it says shall prophesy. Now, what does that mean?

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It says your son and your daughter shall prophesy. Now, what does prophecy here mean in your truth?

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Well, that's a good question. So, there's two main understandings of it. Prophecy as in speaking forth the word of God.

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The other one is predicting. Now, when you go to 1 Corinthians 14, okay, let's do a little bit of a thing on charismatic gifts, okay?

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It talks in 1 Corinthians 14. It talks about prophecy.

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Now, I'm unusual in that I'm reformed and I affirm that all of the charismatic gifts are for today.

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All of them. And one of the reasons I do, well, there's several reasons, but one of them is 1

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Corinthians 1, 7, so that you, the Corinthians, and then the church, because he says at the beginning of the

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Corinthians, with all who in every place, all, everywhere, call upon Jesus.

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So, this is an address to the church universal, which includes us, and it says so that you're not lacking in any gift, and the word gift is charisma, charismatic, awaiting eagerly the revelation, the apocalypsis of our

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Lord Jesus. So, we're not to lack any gift. Now, when you go to 1

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Corinthians 14, it says pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts.

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But the word there is pneumatica, spirituals. But, and he says, but especially that you may prophesy.

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Okay, now there's a music. So, hold on, I'm going to tell you something. I'm going to show you something, which I hope will be interesting.

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And this is how I, this is how I, this is how

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I make people a little bit upset with me when I talk like this, at least in the reform camp. So, but that hasn't stopped me before.

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So, we'll see. Hey, folks, we'll be right back after these messages. Please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276.

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Here's Matt Slick. All right, everyone, welcome back to the show. Dre, are you still there, buddy?

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I'm still here, man. All right. So, we kind of had a break that was there, and I was reading 1

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Corinthians 14, 1, where it says to seek spiritual gifts, especially prophecy.

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Now, when we talk about Joel, and we understand that the last days are from then to now.

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So, I see no reason to say that any of the charismatic gifts have ceased. And I can go into 1

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Corinthians 13, 8 through 12, I can go through it, and all the stuff I can analyze that too. So, here we have instructions for the

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Christian church. So, can a woman prophesy in a church? Of course she can.

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Can she interpret tongues? Of course. Now, prophecy is generally understood to be a prediction, something, a future.

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This will really convict people. Now, verse 6 of 1 Corinthians 14 says, Now, brethren, if I come to you speaking in tongues, what will

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I profit you unless I speak to you either by way of revelation, or of knowledge, or of prophecy, or of teaching?

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Now, prophecy is one of the things to prove that God is working in real, along with healings.

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Because the prophecy is of the future. Now, does it happen today? Absolutely it does.

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I experienced it once in my life, in a very detailed manner. And I know it happens.

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I don't make doctrine out of experience. But I've always believed that the gifts are for today.

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Because of 1 Corinthians 1, 7, and 1 Corinthians 13, 8 -12.

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I can get into that. This is an important topic for me, because when I was a pastor in a reformed camp, and they found out

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I affirmed this position, they politely said, You can no longer be our pastor. Wow.

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Oh yeah. This is an issue that cost me deeply and dearly, with the consequences and the effect of that lasted for years.

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And I'm not joking. And I got quite a story about it. Oh yeah. And so I'm not holding anything.

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I'm sorry, what? No, I think you do have a story about it.

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Yeah. It's really something. But I tell it every now and then. So the thing is, let me run this way, just jump sideways a little bit.

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I ask people who are cessationists, who say the charismatic gifts are not for today.

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They stop with the completion of the canon, which I just reject. And that's not to say they're not good people, and godly, and saved.

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I have a friend, Andrew Rappaport, he does not believe in the affirmation of the gifts, and I do. And we've spoken together in conferences and things like that, and we tease each other and mock each other a little bit, in a friendly way.

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And that's how it should be. Right. So here's the thing. I ask people who are cessationists,

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I say, what doctrine, present day teaching I should say, do you know of, that invalidates large portions of the

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New Testament? There's nothing. I say, for example, and I've done this,

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I actually have it on one of my websites, another website, where I did this. I went through 1

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Corinthians 12 and 14, and I printed up a text, and then I went through and crossed out the texts that are no longer applicable for today.

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If cessationism is true. Now, what's interesting is that the book of Corinthians is written to the entire

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Christian church. It's authoritative, it's inspired. And in it, it says, pursue love.

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Well, that's for today. Yet, earnestly desire spirituals. Well, is it today?

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Now, some cessationists would say, well, I'm not going to answer. Especially that you may prophesy. They go, no prophecy is done.

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So cross that out. Especially that you may prophesy. It's no longer for the church today. For one who speaks in the tongue, cross that out too.

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Does not speak to men but to God. For the one who understands but is his spirit who speaks mysteries, cross that verse out, number two.

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For the one who prophesies speaks to men, cross it out. Because it's not for today. Now, I wish that you all spoke in tongues.

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Cross that out, verse five. Now, brethren, if I come to you speaking in tongues, cross that out.

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Well, maybe not. Because they could say, well, that's what happened back then. It's not applicable for today. And you can see this kind of thing.

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I've done this. And it's really interesting to see how much it's crossed out. It is?

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Hmm. I think it is. Uh -huh. Now. Now. Go ahead.

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Go ahead. No, go on. Go on. Please, go on. You go on. Verse 13, for example.

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Therefore, let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. That's not for today, is it? If the stationism is true, cross that verse out.

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So they'll say, well, here's the thing, Matt. You've got to understand, these principles were for back then. We can learn from the principles.

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Okay, what do you learn? What do you learn? That things will be done in order? Okay, great. But all the gifts have ceased, right?

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Right. And then I can go into first Corinthians. I mean, I'll probably end up doing this here because I'm talking about it so much. But I say, so when he says to pursue gifts, it doesn't mean pursue us, does it?

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But when it says pursue love, that is for us. Yet, especially if they prophesy, that's not for us, even though it's in the same sentence.

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And then we can go into this segment of the sentences for us. This is not, and it reminds me of the

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Graf Wellhausen theory that you took. This part of the sentence is for Moses. This is not.

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This is, anyway, it goes on. But anyway, go ahead, daughter. I was over in first Corinthians chapter 14, where it says that your women keep silence in the church with that, with that, with that for being.

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Okay. One of the worst. It's in first Corinthians 11.

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And so there's debate about this.

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And so they're to be being quiet. And where is that?

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First Corinthians 11. All right. Let me try it this way. Because I know the exact.

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No one over there. First Corinthians 14. Yeah. Let me check. Oh, that's right.

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It is at the end of it. That's right. Sorry. The women are to keep silent in the churches. Now, the word silent there is an interesting word, and it means absolute quiet.

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Let's look at the context. So if, but there's something more to this.

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Okay. So a few verses earlier, if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent.

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And that is cigar. Oh, the same word. Okay. For you could all prophesy one by one so that you may all learn and all may be exhorted.

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And the spirits of the prophets are subject of the prophets. For there's a God is not a God of confusion, but a peace.

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The women are to keep silent in the churches for they're not permitted to speak, but are subject are to subject themselves just as the law says.

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Now that's critical. What's going on here? Because the next verse is really interesting because it says, if they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home.

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For it's improper for a woman to speak in church. Okay. Now what appears to be the case historically is that in the synagogues, when the men would go into the synagogues, and I'm not sure if women were allowed in them, but at the very least, when women and men were allowed to be under a single roof of worship, the men and the women were separated.

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They didn't sit together like we do now. The women were in the back of the church and the men were in the front of the church.

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And so I've read commentaries about this and it looks like what was happening is that the women were abusing the freedom that they had in Christ were then standing up and speaking to men in the front and her husband saying, say this and say that and do this and not that when it was out of place and out of order.

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And they were asking their husbands things and there was this dialogue going on and that's not how it was to be done.

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And it looks like that is what he was saying or to be silent. And now here's the thing.

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How much do we carry this over to the present day? Well, if a woman can prophesy in the church, she can't also be silent in the church because the prophecy is that your sons and daughters will prophesy.

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So this means that in the issue of prophecy in 1 Corinthians 14 that male and female are both doing this.

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Okay. So this is why it says women to keep silent in the churches. It appears to be that he's addressing a specific issue that was going on, that it was not a universal thing that was required, but a cultural thing that was the result causing disorder, which is why it then says, if you want to learn, ask your husbands at home.

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So don't disrupt the service. Talk to your husbands at home and they'll tell you what was going on.

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And that's why that's what seems to be the case. Okay. It's a tough one, though.

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That's right. It's a tough one. All right. And let's see.

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So, yeah. And then the next thing is, go ahead. Yeah. Okay.

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The next verse, it says, was it from you that the word of God first went forth or come to you only?

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This relates to the issue of authority because Paul, the apostle said that that women are not to speak or have an exercise authority over men, but remain silent for Adam was first created.

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It's a created order thing. Yeah. So the authority is tied to the speaking in the church or not to have that position.

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And Paul's very clear. Don't do that. That seems to be what's going on there with everything. Hey, hold on, man. There's another break.

33:54

Okay. We have nobody waiting, so we can keep talking. Stay tuned. Hey, folks, we'll be right back after these messages.

34:01

I hope this is interesting to you guys. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276.

34:15

Here's Matt Slick. All right. Welcome back to the show, Dre. You still there, buddy?

34:22

Yes. Oh, yes, sir. I ain't going nowhere. Oh, I'm here. Gave you a lot of info here.

34:28

So, uh. Oh, man. Yeah. What you talking about? Now, I want to ask that the word, um, you were talking about the word silence.

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Um, the word silence is over there. First Corinthians 14 and 34 is the same meaning over in 1st

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Timothy 2. No. The word in 1st Timothy 2, 12 is, uh,

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Hezekiah. And this word here, 1st Corinthians 1434 is

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Sagao. Generally speaking, they both mean quiet and silence. But you can be more

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Hezekiah, more silent. How do you be more silent? It's not an English word we use like that.

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It's like saying, keep it down. So Hezekiah is like, you know, keep it down. Okay. And you can say to your kids, oh, no, even quieter now, you know.

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But Sagao means absolute silence. So. Okay. That there's a difference there.

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So in relationship to the authority, women are not to exercise this, but to remain silent.

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Regarding this issue, they can talk about it, but they can't really, you know, refute it. That's what it is.

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This issue in 1st Corinthians 1434, uh, seems to be, like I said, the cultural context of disruption and, uh, culturally being defiant.

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And that was, uh, that's one of the things that they think was happening, which is why it was said that way. Oh, okay.

36:01

Okay. That makes sense and clear up laws of misunderstanding right there. Okay. Yeah.

36:08

Okay. Well, good. Man, I appreciate it. I don't want to hold up all your time, but I appreciate it.

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I listen to you all the time and I thank God for you and what you do and what you mean for the kingdom of God. Well, you should thank

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God for His incredible mercy and grace to use broken vessels. Yes.

36:28

Yeah, that's true, too. That's the truth, too. That's right. Well, I appreciate it, man.

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I won't let you get back to some old phone calls. I can keep you on here all night, but I appreciate what I learned thus far.

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It helped me in so many ways. All right, man. Well, praise God. Just keep studying. Keep studying God's word.

36:45

I will. I most definitely will. Thank you so much. All right. You're welcome so much. God bless.

36:51

All right. This is a long call, and I like that. It's a good call, and we got through a lot of good information there.

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I didn't go to 1 Corinthians 13, 8 -12 and exegete it and show you what it really means, but we can try this some other time.

37:05

Okay? All right. Let's get to Elijah from Philly. Elijah, welcome. You're on the air.

37:12

Hey, Matt. How you doing? Oh, I'm hanging in there, man, getting over a head cold and feeling a little bit better each day.

37:19

So what do you got? All right. My question is out of Exodus 21, because these passages have been a stumbling block for me lately, so I just really need you to exegete them, because you know,

37:39

Atheists like to use this as a strong argument against the

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Bible, and they like to portray God as an evil God for all this. But Exodus 21, verses 20 -21,

37:56

Matt Dillahunty's argument is that God seems to be condoning slavery, and He even allows the beating of your slaves, and He's saying that you can own a slave as long as you don't beat them too much.

38:19

Right. Well, first of all, Matt, I know Matt Dillahunty, and we converse slightly every now and then, and when the

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Atheists bring up Exodus 21 about slavery, and they say it's wrong, right or wrong isn't the issue at the moment,

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I'll say, and what gives you the right to say it's right or wrong? What universal moral standard do you have at which you say it's right, or say it's wrong, or ought not be this or that?

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You have to have something more than, it's just wrong. Because if you say it's just wrong, then God just exists.

38:53

And I say, so this is a whole problem, it's a whole other topic, but nevertheless. Verse 20 -21, if a man strikes his male or female slave, the word in Hebrew is ama, and he does it with a rod, and he dies, he shall be punished.

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If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken, for he is his property. The word is kesef, which literally is the word money.

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So this verse has been used to say it's okay to beat slaves. I'm going to go through my notes here, okay,

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I've written on this. What they don't know is that beatings are not limited to slaves, but included all people in the

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Jewish culture, out of Deuteronomy 25, Proverbs 10, Proverbs 26. The rod of correction was often even used on children.

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It's not a lethal weapon. It's a means of discipline and correction. Therefore, the intent is not homicide.

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It's not to destroy anybody, it's to discipline them. So that's the context.

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Now to say that the verse means it is permissible for the master to inflict malicious beatings without cause is not in the text, nor is it warranted by the text.

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If the servant dies, it's considered murder. And the master was to be punished.

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If the master caused a slave to lose an eye or a tooth, the slave was to be set free.

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Well, that's not how it was with chattel slavery here in the United States, back in the 1870s and 1800s.

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Because they were just owned, period, outright. You could do whatever you wanted with them. You could kill them, and you didn't, so what?

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Which is horrible. It's not how it was in the Jewish culture. And furthermore, it says, for he is his property.

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Literally, it's what it really means, for he is his money. So what the issue here is, there's a couple issues.

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One is, there is not an English equivalent to the word amah, among other words that are used for translating into slavery.

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There's abduth, which is bondage. Abed, ebed, so there's abed and ebed.

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And then there's lakesep, which is money, silver, property. Naar, and shifkah.

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And they have these different words, and what they mean. And so, many of them are used to translate the

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Hebrew into the English, the single word slave. But there isn't an equivalent, not an exact equivalent, so it's one of the problems that has been here.

41:39

So, I'm going to read a summary about slavery. Go ahead. I think the centurion uses the word servant, if I remember correctly.

41:49

Dulos. Yeah. Dulos, which can be used as slave, bond slave, and servant.

41:58

But if it means just slave, they wouldn't say also a bond slave, which is different, or a servant.

42:04

Okay. So, in the Old Testament, and I can read the references, all these have references to them, but I won't read them all.

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Slaves were not to be treated with severity. That's in Exodus 21, 20. Okay. Right there. And I'll just go on.

42:19

They could go to war, inherit property, or a member of the household, the master's household, could be in control of entire households, were required to rest on the

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Sabbath, were sometimes trusted advisors, would participate in religious observances, could not be extradited, were free when injured, would receive gifts when freed, and enabled them to survive economically, both escaped slaves were not to be returned, as was property.

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So, it's a different thing. So, the beating here is not about, I don't like you,

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I'm just going to beat you silly. It was the rod of discipline that was used on others who were

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Jews, as well as the youth. That's what's going on there. But if they died, that means you went way too far, and you're going to be punished for it.

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And I wrote an article on this, where the master does this, he'd be executed. Okay.

43:18

All right. So, Matt Delahunty often is the case, and other atheists don't do their homework. All right.

43:26

Yeah. Yeah. I learned after, like, studying this closely, that I realized, well,

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I already knew this, but I started to realize even more that the devil is very crafty, and he'll twist the scriptures to the point where he'll try to make gods of evil.

43:50

Yes. Yeah, because he's a liar. He's a liar.

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And with slavery, there's different forms of it in Jewish history, in this time back then.

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Some of it was, I don't want to say better, but some of it was like indentured servitude.

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Some of it was you were captured and you were sold. Your work and your worth was sold into servitude.

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If the Jews went to another country and wore with them, and then they won, then they would take a spoil, and sometimes they'd take the women, and they'd take the men and make them their servants.

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But they were to be treated with honor. They would be treated properly. And they could, like I said, they could hold high positions.

44:43

In fact, in some cultures, well, actually that reminds me.

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I read some other, oh, what have I got that here? I haven't looked at this for a while.

44:57

Oh, there's types of slavery. Let's see if I've got that. Chattel, indentured, serfdom, forced labor, debt labor, sex slavery, domesticated servitude, and child soldiers.

45:09

And so those are the different types that are there. But I went and I read, I'm trying to see if I can find it, read other non -biblical types of slavery and what was involved with it.

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And it was pretty bad. So around them, the other countries that had slavery, and slavery is still in existence.

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The Muslims are just perpetuating it in other countries. But around the time,

45:38

I mean, it was bad. And they could be, they were a little more like chattel slavery of the

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Americas in the 1800s, and even worse. Yeah, and I'm trying to find the quotes.

45:52

I actually went through and read some stuff. It was actually interesting. I remember reading this going, man, I can't stop reading this stuff. These other sources, and I forgot where I have them.

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But I've written articles on them using those sources and things. So anyway,

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I don't know if that helps or not. Does it help? Yeah, it does help. And I would also like to get your thoughts on Leviticus 2539 through,

46:19

I think it's 40, because I've never seen Matt Dillahunty bring this up yet in any of the videos

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I've seen so far. I noticed he liked to bring up all the other ones that looked bad.

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But this one, he doesn't bring this one up. Because in these verses, it says that people sometimes sold themselves into slavery.

46:44

So it was more like a volunteer work instead of actual slavery. Right, that's right.

46:52

Well, remember, the enemies of the gospel won't represent the gospel truthfully.

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They just won't. I can't tell you how many times I've offered to teach atheists biblical theology and not a single one has accepted it.

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I mean, I've said to atheists, look, that's not our position, that's not what we teach, it's not what the Bible says.

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Do you want me to teach you what it is? And they say, no. And they continually do this because they don't have the mind of Christ.

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They don't serve God. So, nevertheless, good for you. Oh, there's the music.

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But good for you because you're right. That's one of the types of slavery that is used. The English word is rendered from varying

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Hebrew words into the English. And I wish there were better words that we had, but that's what it is.

47:45

We've got to go, buddy, okay? We're out of time, man. God bless, Elijah. All right. Hey, folks, hope you enjoyed the show.