The Here I Stand Theology Podcast "Continuationism and Cessationism" with "Big John"

Okay. All right, and welcome to the here. I stand theology podcast. Special Friday afternoon edition. I've got to say it's good To be on the podcast when it's daylight outside. All right, so. Without that being said, let's just go ahead and give you the spiel.

We are the here. I stand theology podcast here at the the here. I stand theology podcast. We are a podcast dedicated to a pointed and spirited debate of biblical doctrine. And yes, we like Molly Hatchet at the same time.

My name is Claude. I am the happy Calvinist. I serve as one of three elders at Reverend auto Baptist Church. And so this podcast is a ministry of the church. So we stand accountable for everything that we say and do here on the podcast.

So without any further ado that being said, let's go ahead and bring in our special guest today. Big John from real talk with Big John. Big John, how are you? I'm well. How are you? That may be a stretch right there, I know you're feeling.

Good enough God's grace is sufficient.

That's the truth that is the truth brother. Yes, so we we've been on prep and we'll go ahead and get right into this. So right on the front here. We're gonna we're gonna tackle what's called the big question, but I'm gonna add a few more questions on here.

Oh boy big question. Yeah, what it does. If you've seen us anytime that we have a new guest on we ask a specific question. And so that specific question is going to be asked to you today. So but I'm gonna ask it in two different forms or or with two different objects actually.

So if you and Robert cannot had to arm-wrestle who would win?

Robert.

Are you just saying that?

What mostly?

Okay.

I'm not much of an arm wrestler.

What about if you and Jonathan Foster had to arm-wrestle?

I'm gonna go with Jonathan to. You know, anybody who can go backpacking and hunting in Wyoming is way tougher than I am.

Those were those were. I am NOT convinced that you're telling the truth. They are on those answers.

So our brother.

But it doesn't doesn't mean that you give them you give them the victory in arm wrestling. You just got to teach people lessons. Sometimes I do my best. In your condition, maybe they would win. With you with you running full speed.

I would say not. All right, lightning round. Are you ready for this? Get ready, I know you I know you I know you're feeling rough. We get ready. First question. Pudding or jello. Mmm pudding. Chocolate or vanilla vanilla deer or turkey.

Deer.

His sticks or potted meat. Hmm. Are there crackers involved Ritz crackers?

That's not good. Fish sticks in. Have salt. You have saltines. If saltines I'd go with the potted meat.

Have you ever had. Have you ever had pot of meat with salt or with Ritz crackers? I.

Don't think so, I don't think so. The pile of times with the With saltines that's been a many a morning chasing the elusive white-tailed deer sitting on the back of a truck in the heat of the day and a few cans of stand-ups and potted meat.

Y 'all know what I mean when I say stand-ups.

Continuationism and Cessationism in Light of the Fundamentals of the Faith

All right, so let's let's get right to it. Today's what John and I are going to be talking about on the podcast. I just hit something and I probably shouldn't have. Oh, well, we seem to be good here. We're gonna go with it.

Go with it. Gonna roll with it. So we are going to be as we've been talking. As we talked last night on the labors podcast, by the way. If you've not had a chance to be to watch the labors podcast We encourage you to watch it on Thursday nights every week at 830.

We have been discussing the Holy Spirit the doctrine of the Holy Spirit last week was actually part four. I don't know if it's going to be extended to a part five or we're just gonna switch off to a different subject this week.

But it has been fantastic. Nevertheless the the the issue of cessationism versus Continuationism inevitably comes up anytime that the doctrine of the Holy Spirit is talked about. And what happens many times with believers sadly is.

Believers tend to lean to too far one side or to the other. They drift in the cold dead orthodoxy or they go into new apostolic Reformation mode where they can walk through walls and levitate and stuff like that.

So.

Yeah.

That's that's a real thing. They really teach that John the NAR. So heavens, yeah crazy so nevertheless what we want to do. We want to establish from the get-go here that John and I are Absolutely able to disagree with one another and we're okay with that.

That is not a problem at all. The chief thing is that we agree on the fundamentals of the faith. So we're gonna begin John by going Just very quickly here to start us off through the fundamentals of the faith.

So number one. We start with the inerrancy and the sufficiency of Scripture. What say you about the inerrancy and sufficiency of Scripture?

All things you need for life and godliness are supplied to us through the Word of God. It's in there. It means it has no errors in it. And if you had nothing else the Word of God would be enough to know who the Lord is and all the way into salvation.

Amen amen. And so we would both be in agreement with with the Concept the notion concerning the authority and sufficiency of Scripture that there is no new revelation. Added to the text of Scripture itself, correct?

Yes, sir. Whenever you create Hebrews 1 in these last days God has spoken to us through his son So that Jesus Christ being the final say from heaven over the matter of Scripture.

Amen, amen. See you see folks as you're watching this you see how easy this is so far. So number two the fundamental we believe in the virgin birth in the deity of Jesus Christ, amen.

He's a. That's called the hypostatic Union. He's a hundred percent man a hundred percent God. That's right.

That's right born of the Virgin born of a virgin.

Man we used to I used to I was raised in a Methodist Church, believe it or not. And We used to say the Apostles Creed every Sunday morning. I don't remember it all because I was I was before I was big John.

I was a smaller John and. And he has slipped since then. I don't remember all of it, but I remembered the part that says born of a he's a boy Jesus Christ Sinning Senator born of a virgin suffered under Pontius Pilate Crucified was dead and raised and resurrected from the dead there He sits at the right hand of God the Father from when.

So Jim the judge too quick in the day. It's part of it.

Yeah. You got it you got it.

Man.

So next so we we agree on the authority and inerrancy of Scripture and sufficiency. We agree on the virgin birth. And next the next fundamental of the faith is the substitutionary death and atonement of Christ.

Penal substitutionary atonement would be the I believe the full theological Terminology, so break that down. What does that mean? This means that Mary atonement of Christ. That means that Christ's death.

Was in our place the word Atonement was my understanding was invented so that we would have a word to use at one with God. So Christ's death on the cross justified All those who put their faith in him His and his resurrection.

As would be the next one. I'll let you start that.

No, you go ahead. You're on it.

So the bodily resurrection of Christ would be the thing that seals our salvation if there be no resurrection. Then we have no hope. Paul would say in 1st Corinthians 15 that our hope would be in vain.

That we might as well eat and drink for tomorrow we die. And if we have hope in this life only we're of all men most miserable. So it is the nest is that the resurrection is what makes the good news the gospel.

Amen, and it's also what sets Christianity apart from every other religion. Well two things I would say the resurrection and that Christianity is a Religion of faith where every other religion is a religion of works.

Agreed. If we don't have a resurrected Lord, we have no faith. We have no religion. The our our entire our entire faith our entire religion is hinged upon Christ being alive.

Amen Amen, I'm glad that what's that old the old song says I serve a risen Savior. He's in the world today. I know that he is living whatever men may say and they're Hinting. I love what? The book of Acts says he showed himself alive by many infallible proofs.

Exactly. That is that is beautiful and amazing. Okay, and so then the last one the reality and miracles of Christ. This is again, I think for and I'm gonna say this ahead of time. I think for True cessationist because I'm going to go ahead and say that I'm probably a weak Cessationist as far as some of the Theologians have termed it throughout the years or I'm so sorry a weak Continuationist.

Yes, I'm a weak continuationist according to what some theologians how they have explained it because a true cessationist. Some of the true cessationist they not only deny and we're gonna look at those definitions.

They not only deny That Christ does miracles today, but they in many cases in in theological liberalism. Have it's tried to explain away the miracles of Christ himself. That's why it's so important that we hold to the true and real miracles of Christ in his time here on the earth.

This doubt a couple of those miracles that Christ performed for us John.

Well, I always think about the first one from his. Uh,.

His.

Ministry. The way in the Canaan returned water and wine. Think about all the the blinded that he restored sight those that were cleanse of lepers. Obviously those times that folks were deceased and he raised them from the dead.

It's simply a word and the biggest one of all the one that oftentimes gets overlooked in my camp. Salvation. See God can simply speak the world into existence Ex-nihilo. And everything is what it is and man can't even understand it, but God had to die to make me right with him.

So.

That's a big one and I don't want to I don't want to just glass over that. Salvation is the greatest miracle that Christ ever worked in. Sinful, man.

Amen. And so thereby and and I will I will say this out loud publicly. That being the greatest miracle that Christ works. I say that in present tense for he is still saving him in women and boys and girls today.

Ain't that good?

Yes, sir. It is.

Praise the Lord. Yes, sir. It is. So we're both in absolute total agreement with these and as our many Christians throughout the world. So, what do you think is the big what's what's the what's the old saying what's the big.

Hubbub bub I.

Think a lot of times it boils down to. Frankly it boils down to man and His obedience to God ultimately. I think a lot of times Man wants to explain away the things that he doesn't understand. And try to and try to in in whether he realizes or not.

I think sometimes we try to Bring God down from his position that he has earned and put him in a position that we can rationalize and quantitate everything yeah, and. And I think that desire is I think we see it in Scripture.

I think all throughout the New Testament you see Jesus being hard on the Pharisees and anybody else who claimed and these guys claim to know the will and mind of the Lord and he's like look you've been saying this for years and I'm telling you this is what the this is what the law and the Prophets even meant in the first place and they were like, well What kind of authority does this man preach with and that's the same kind of thing that you see today?

And then the other side of the coin is There's people who are afraid. To say hey. That doesn't line up with Scripture at all. So so I would say the the strong sensationist point of view is we need to be able to explain away Everything that has ever happened Throughout the scriptures and even throughout today as a means of natural occurrence I think they try to take away the supernatural nature the a miracle means this is this is something it is.

By by nature. It's supernatural. Right. I mean, it's just these are maybe not always because we do attribute something. Maybe we use the word miracle to to cavalier Lee these days, you know the miracle of childbirth.

Well, it is a miracle at the same time. It is something that is natural, you know, it happens in cows as well as it does in humans. So this this kind of thing well, I believe it's a miracle. It's more of a miracle than the fact that life exists than the fact that the organs work the way they do.

So you can try to quantitate it that way. That's what sound like a train wreck didn't I apologize for that up front?

The.

The other side of the spectrum the the continuation is if you were a strong Continuation is to the point to where would you say people won't do walls and levitate? Yeah, I've never heard of that, but we'll go with those two examples.

I'll say that.

Okay.

So it would be to say Well, I'm teleporting for Jesus, you know, that's that's ridiculous. That's that's ridiculous, you know.

So.

I think that you were talking earlier about two camps and and I think those two camps being there are the reason there's a hubbub because you've got a guy on one end who says No such thing as a supernatural and the guy on the other end who gets up in the morning and has coffee with the Lord.

And they took they discuss what you know, what stock market tips? He's going to use during the day and and I even heard one time this I might even say his name but this this heretic Somehow counseled the Lord on what he ought to do.

That would be Jesse Duplantis. Well, you said it. I wasn't gonna say it. So I Wouldn't give you any traction. I wouldn't give you a miniature. I don't want to buy look him up and follow in the ditch. You know what?

I mean? So you've got you've got two different sides. So then that means somewhere in the middle guys are going. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Now, I'm not. I'm not with Duplantis. But I will not deny the work of the Holy Spirit In my life or someone else's or what I see through Scripture.

That's why I told you earlier that we have will fall more in common than we have separate. Amen, at least I believe that's the case. It just didn't a little bit. I think we hashed out some of this last night on the podcast.

I.

Think that there's a it's obvious because there's there's so much in the fundamentals of the faith. Really? There's no.

Yeah.

There's that When when there's so much in there's so much rich theological truth in the fundamentals of the faith that not that we should never move beyond those to the doctor to the Secondary doctrines, but there's so much there that it's amazing that we get to the secondary doctrines.

So I watch all kinds of different stuff, right. I listen to all kinds of different things some things I like some things. I don't. I'm the only one I know of one other Church of God pastor who has a MacArthur study Bible and he preaches out of it, right?

Now if you know John MacArthur at all, you know that he is a pretty strong cessationist. Would you agree? Yeah. Yeah, so and and I I've read his his commentary and He's partly correct but he's also. Partly I'll put it this way.

He could have used he used my mark six seven eight nine. To describe his cessationist view as you could have picked far better text if you were going to camp out than those. Yeah, that's that's prior to the cross and resurrection.

I mean that's prior to the upper room, you know. In any case, but I'm not going to I'm not going to miss out on what I know Pastor John MacArthur's. Especially his historical accounts and his outlines on the on the context surrounding the text as it is being written.

You'd be do yourself a massive disservice to just throw his Bible away. Because there's one area you disagree with him on so I'm of you know, I watch your podcast. I I don't watch all the podcasts there's not enough time in the day.

But I I watch it a variety of them and what I see over and over and over again is a minor Misunderstanding that has caused a doctrinal stance that in some way sadly has caused there to be division inside the body.

Defining Continuationism, Cessationism, and the Sign Gifts

Yeah, I would agree. I would agree absolutely continuation ism. The definition for continuation ism is this. Continuation ism is the belief that all the spiritual gifts including healing tongues and miracles are still in operation today.

Just as they were in the days of the early church continuationist believes that the spiritual gifts have continued unabated since the day of Pentecost and that today's church has Access to all the spiritual gifts mentioned in the Bible, which would you agree with that?

Yes, sir. All right, gotcha. So the definition for cessation ism is the view that the miracle gifts the quote-unquote miracle gifts of tongues and healings have ceased. That the end of the apostolic age brought about a cessation of the miracles associated with that age.

Most cessationists believe that while God can and still does perform miracles today The Holy Spirit no longer uses individuals to perform Miraculous signs, so it's not the best definition in the world.

But it is it is a pretty accurate definition there. I think it's particularly Making a distinction with the sign gifts Versus what some may call the grace gifts, right? You know, they the the more practical gifts.

So let's let's get into these. So Would would you say big John would you say that This question wasn't on there just added it earlier. But would you say that with the reality that God still works miracles today?

We're both in absolute agreement that God still works miracles today.

So.

Could it not be reasonable for both the continuationist and the cessationist to agree? That miracles are not the the rule but rather the exception. So and by that I mean to say that it's imbalanced for a Christian to expect miracles to be the norm.

I believe you touched on this last night. Yeah, and I'd like to ask you if you would Speak on this a little bit as you if you would there. So.

The very act that that it takes God to do something means that it's That it is not something that is just common, right? Oftentimes, I mean think about it for a second you've got I Like this thin one because it's easy to carry but if you're gonna talk about how many times God spoke to man Right throughout the course of man's existence.

It's a pretty special thing. So The fact that The fact that some would try to say that this should be a everyday thing. It wasn't an everyday thing in Christ's life on earth and his ministry. You didn't see you didn't see miracles every day now I will give you that especially like the the gospel account of Mark.

It seems like It's just every second. There's something I mean every time you turn around There's there's an immediately Christ does this and immediately Christ is that but three and a half years are summed up in and in Sixteen chapters.

Yeah Sixteen chapter three and a half years. I mean, that's That is a lot to cover now obviously there was a lot of things that Christ did that isn't captured in the Bible the Bible says that if Everything that Christ's work wouldn't the books of the earth wouldn't contain it.

So I'm not saying that I'm not saying that That all the miracles that Christ did are recorded because that wouldn't be biblical on the flip of that We shouldn't we shouldn't think that. That it is the norm.

We're talking about the believer today, especially. You shouldn't think that it's the norm for miracles to happen every single day.

For then they would be miracles. Yeah, then it would be it would be the normative.

It would be it would be everyday life and and honestly people wouldn't even be thankful for them. You don't how often? To turn it to ask you a question. How often do you really get up in the morning and.

You thank God that there's a light on in your house when you turn it on. How many times have you flipped the light switch on and you've said, thank you Jesus for this light. Yeah. The amount now I work in this industry.

So I think about this kind of thing a lot the work that it takes for you to have that kind of access to just Flip a light switch. Electricity starts burning the non incandescent filament or whatever. You're using the gas lights or whatever.

That's not a miracle, right. But at the same hand we've become so complacent. I watch when the power goes out my wife will walk in the room and flip a switch knowing the powers out. And and and my kids will do it.

I've thought about it before, you know, I mean it's just. So the fact that the fact that something is a miraculous event. Means that it is something that happens seldom. And that's one of the things that causes us to be so taken back by it and so thankful for it.

It was every day you would you would treat it as common and you wouldn't you wouldn't honor God in it either. Amen, you would feel it was owed you you'd feel like it was a it was an entitlement and Lord knows we've got enough entitlement problem in this country.

We can't afford to have something else.

You're exactly right. And and that is one of the that is one of the imbalances with like like on the extreme side of Continuationism the NAR it's it it's an expected norm as a matter of fact the language is much many times used they will actually that the I'm a I don't.

I guess I could call him the far left the Chris Roseboro has a technical term. It's winged nutwacker doodles. But you know the We want to be. But they want to be commanding God and declaring and decreeing like they are God and there is Love what matter of fact, I'm gonna turn there real quick here.

I love what? In in the book of Isaiah how Isaiah How Isaiah had recorded the Word of God, but I believe it's chapter 45. Okay. Yeah, he talks. He's talked about Cyrus right how the Lord used Cyrus and ungodly King, but they've got the but the Lord used him because he's sovereign.

But he said in verse 5 I am the Lord and there is no other beside me there is no God. Yeah besides me. There is no God. I equip you though. You do not know me. This is God's message to Cyrus that he's letting Cyrus know what's happening.

And he said I equip you though. You do not know me that the people may know from the rising of the Sun and from the West. That there is none beside me. I am the Lord and there is no other. I Form light and create darkness.

I make well-being and I create calamity. I am the Lord who does all these things and. So again when we when we keep things balanced as they are if the Lord can create light and create darkness if the Lord can bring Peace or bring calamity then certainly he can heal the sick.

Amen. Amen.

So so he can say no.

That's exactly right. He can say no one of the things that I've heard said before and I just whole sale disagree with it is God if you ask God to do something He'll he will do it if you ask in faith and if you don't have enough faith, then it won't happen and it's your fault and I and I'll tell you uh, I Have been at the bedside of people who were completely at peace dying from a terminal condition and watched God just carry them home and I would I would be willing to put My years earnings that they don't want to come back.

You know what? I mean? I mean that and and if choosing between Eternity and being delivered from a temporary condition.

Yeah.

What what choice is that?

Exactly.

So I think a lot of times these ideas are Well, I don't think I know it is man-centered. These people are acting as if though it's their faith that initiates these healings or it's there. It's their relationship with God that stands in the gap and and calls down all these kind of things.

We're gonna align 100 in this yeah, well the time you forget if you forget that even the Apostles were not wielding God's power and his sword. As if it was their own. You'll understand and When Peter's when Peter preaches it was under the unction of the Holy Spirit.

When Paul stands at Mars Hill and preaches and says this unknown God, this is this is Paul Taking their own their own Gnostic theology that they've got their own crazy philosophy and saying that turning it's on its head and Talking about it's in him on live and move and have all being all these things that are done these these aren't works of Apostles.

The only thing I've ever seen in that book that I've ever thought man. We really could fix this name. It's not the acts of the Apostles. It should be something like how God moved through the Apostles.

Yeah, the acts of the Holy Spirit these these men did never obtain these gifts and say that I can use them as I want if that were so. Then there would be a pile of times that Paul would have been able to been healed when he prayed three times for it instead of God just telling him his grace was sufficient or Timothy wouldn't have had to drink a little wine for his stomach's sake.

There's a.

But.

In a lot of what they call it last night a continuations with a seat belt. Yeah. Yeah, I'm probably you know riding without a seat belt on but at the same time. If I'm listening to a man and he claims to have these gifts I'm up now I'm out.

I'm out of there like last year I've got up from a service before and my old church. Some some nutjob wackadoodle was given a microphone and he started proclaiming this stuff and I got up. I told my wife and kids so let's go and she said we're leaving right now.

I said, yeah, we're leaving right now. I'm not staying for this stand for this because What this man is doing is bringing reproach on the Lord in the long run because he's fixing to write a check and Put God's name as a signature on it and God never told him any of the things he's fixing to say Amen, and and if it were If it were God honoring God edifying Church building and sinner drawing I'd have been okay with it.

But what he was fixing to say Man, it had nothing to do with the price eggs in China. I mean it was it was nonsense. And I I don't have time for this. And I'm not alone in that I wasn't the only one that left and And I'm not saying I'm not writing the whole church off.

I came back next Sunday, you know. But the when I was asked by the pastor, he said why'd you get him leave? I said, I can't believe You you let that that go on and he said well to tell you the truth when he started talking I thought man Who in the world is and he never let him come back?

You know blame you so I don't either because there's a lot of damage you can do behind that bullpen.

That's exactly right and what you were talking about to made me think about over in Acts Chapter 8 right. Simon the magician. This is this is basically what's going on in the modern-day. In AR, is that what you call it?

Yeah. Yeah, it's exactly what's going on in in. Is it okay if I read a little bit from access? Absolutely. Absolutely. I've talked too much. Anyway, no, no. No, that's that's fantastic because that is so illustrates the point that that we're trying to communicate here today.

But there was a man in Acts chapter 8 that there was a man named Simon who had previously Practiced magic in the city and amazed the people of Samaria saying that he himself is somebody great. They all paid attention to him from the least to the greatest saying this man is the great power of God and They paid attention to him because for a long time he amazed them with magic.

But when they believed Philip as he preached the good news about the kingdom of God in the name of Jesus Christ. They were baptized both men and women even Simon himself believed. I love how the the Lord put this in here says he believed.

However, he continued with Philip and seeing signs and great miracles performed. He was amazed now when the Apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the Word of God. They sent to them Peter and John who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.

For he had not yet fallen on any of them. So they had not received the Holy Spirit, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.

Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the Apostles hands, he offered them money. He offered them money saying give me this power so that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.

What was Peter's answer sure thing? What's your money? We let your money die with you. Yeah. Yeah, we want the kingdom of God to grow go ahead. How much you got? No, Peter said this may your silver perish with you because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money.

You have neither part nor lot in this matter for your heart is not right before God. Repent therefore of this wickedness of yours and pray to the Lord if possible the intent of your heart may be forgiven.

And that's it boils down to that that it's the heart. It's the hearts of men and women when they when they go it when when we will we we can lump us all in this when we go to is it two extremes one side or the other and we stray from the.

The refer the reference you just made that was used last night to the seatbelt. Well, I would more so say guardrails. So we have what are the guardrails the guardrails are the script again? There's so much more for us to be in agreement on when we objectively Gauge.

All of our actions in our activity based upon the Word of God itself. So in one of those one of those links I sent you William Barron's The article that he wrote he said this some use the word in a wide sense.

To indicate the belief that all supernatural activity of an unusual or miraculous nature is ceased speaking of cessationist. He said others use the word in a narrower sense to mean that the miraculous gifts of the Spirit among God's people have ceased.

According to the latter view God himself still performs supernatural acts of a miraculous nature. But he no longer gives the power to do such works to his church. Now. Here's a cat the caveat in this I think however, he said.

However Barron said there is no agreement amongst those who hold this viewpoint as to When the cessation of miraculous gifts went into effect. For some the time of miraculous gifts coincided with the ministry of the Apostles.

He's speaking of cessationist for others for others gifts and miraculous activities were limited to the days of the early church. And a third position is that the practice of such gifts is reserved for extraordinary times in circumstances so concerning those those those views on Cessationist right there again.

I would I would say that I lean toward that third view, right? For the practice of such gifts is reserved reserved for ordinary extraordinary times and Circumstances like you talked about last night like those special In feelings that we have from the Spirit that supernatural power to.

To.

Act at specific times for example. Well, I think you gave the example last night or so. I don't know if somebody at our office was just thinking of it. But for example, there are times when you get up to preach the gospel as a preacher.

You get up to preach the Word of God where You and and I know we don't have to necessarily quote unquote feel it. But there are times when you can certainly feel a supernatural unction from the Holy Spirit and It's like holy cow.

Yeah, it's hilarious. Use the word holy cow in that moment.

No pun intended no. So again in Barons went on to say this the object of God's miraculous Attestation here is not his servants, but the gospel message. So the point of the sign gifts are to point people to Jesus and if they like you mentioned that man a little while ago if if they are pointing to Themselves or to you or to me they are pointing to the wrong place.