Christless Christianity - [chapter 3]

Prayer for Discernment and Faithfulness

Prayer. Our father in heaven what a delight it is to be here this morning to have these men here to be able to discuss the the slide away from truth and American evangelicalism father encourage us. Not because of what people do but because of what you have done and will do.

In your church and through your church and for your glory Father remind us again and again of the gospel. Which we are here to promulgate to spread to proclaim Help us Strengthen us in Jesus name. Amen.

Okay, so yeah somebody said I never knew so much about Joel Osteen, well, there you go. You know, it's interesting just before we start the quiz. Well Dave you did this you went to. I want to call holding days.

It wasn't holding days. What was the thing in West Boylston last year? West Boylston days. Hi. I don't know. It wasn't Harvest Fest it wasn't a Christian thing. Yeah, but but the guy from the local yokel church said hey you guys want to send some people and so I Asked a few people and a few people went including Dave and was it glorious and to have good fellowship with fellow believers.

Sad times. Okay. So number one. Uh, what should you think when a church announces good news, it's a stumper. Well, you shouldn't think that there's going to be good news, right? Yeah, I mean I I saw that and I thought well good, you know, that means the gospel is coming next but well, maybe.

Right. I mean if somebody says I have good news for you, and then they give you the gospel do you go? Oh, man, I was hoping for some news. I'm usually thinking well, at least somebody's preaching the gospel, you know, so anybody who doesn't have a quiz by the way, okay.

Seeing them. Well, no, I hit. I took this out of the book because it's just you know. And here well here was my official answer the gospel is What I should expect to hear when I hear good news or you know, so-and-so's out of the hospital.

That would be good news, I guess but You know, I would expect to hear Good news and not this drivel. And I quoted out of the out of the book. Hi neighbor at last a new church for those who have given up on church services.

Let's face it. Many people are not active in church these days. Why too often the sermons are boring and don't relate to daily living. Many churches seem more interested in your wallet than in you. Members are unfriendly to visitors.

You wonder about the quality of the nursery care for your little ones. Do you attend. Do you think attending church should be enjoyable? Well, we've got good news for you. Valley Church is the new church designed to meet your needs in the 1990s.

Blah blah blah blah blah blah. This is yeah. Yeah, I mean if that's your concern, you know instead of a letdown this Sunday when I get a lift, you know, there you go. And unfortunately, that's you know, that's most Churches these days.

The Privatized and Therapeutic Shape of American Christianity

Okay, number two what lives between The spiritual and the psychological the transcendent and the pragmatic. He lives within my heart. These are really two. I guess I should have waited gun started with some true false ones.

The correct answer is American Christianity today lives in this contradiction between the spiritual and the psychological the transcendent and the pragmatic according to the well-known secularization theory of Max Weber religion under the conditions of modernity.

Goes through various stages. First religion is privatized. Its domain shrunk to the island of private subjectivity and. So what this question is really driving at is what's happened to American Christian Christianity.

Well, it's become a very private kind of religion, right where you get to choose what you like and Nobody's nobody's going to bore you with a bunch of lame sermons just coming from the Bible. It's going to be stuff that you can use.

Mmm number three. Why did American Christianity? I mean that true false would be just too easy here. So I'm trying to get you guys thinking a little bit. Why did American Christianity have to morph change from traditional Christianity?

Okay, so to accommodate culture, right? Christianity says Christ did everything Americanism says. You can do it you can improve yourself. Yeah, so to to kind of meld together Christianity and American thought.

Takes a little bit of work a little bit of ingenuity. You know, how do you make church? Relic relevant, how do you make it feel authentic? Well what Horton says the creedal objective and historical faith of traditional Christianity could not be Translated into purely subjective terms.

In other words, you can't take the creeds and confessions historical Christianity and make it Subjective. How what does this mean to me? However. Precisely because American religion has long cherished its opposition To more traditional forms of Christianity in favor of the sovereign inner experience of the individual.

I mean if you think about the Quakers other You know forms of odd oddity. I mean I would even argue Congregationalism, what is congregationalism? Yeah, and it's the official religion of Massachusetts you say I mean I had an argument with somebody who On election evening came striding up to me.

He's the head of the Democrats and then in town. He says Says you say you're a constitutionalist and not a Christianist. Do you believe in the separation of church and state and I said No, because it's not my Constitution.

And I said as evidence I point to the corner Where there's a congregational church because every town in Massachusetts had to have a congregational church. Why because we had a state religion the Constitution says what?

Congress shall make no law so Lots of states had official religions including our very own, Massachusetts, but getting back to congregationalism. You know, we don't want a bunch of stayed kind of stuffy guys.

Elders told us what to do. So instead we'll vote. That's the American way, right? Congregationalism and. Because I think. Well, I think that kind of comes a little bit later. I'd say, you know, though the rugged individualism of America I mean just imagine what the United States would look like if men Were afraid to go outside of the village.

Right. I don't want to go out there. It's too scary. There'd be no westward expansion, you know, we'd all be just huddled on the coast. You know waiting for global warming to drown us. I know because it'd just be too scary to me, you know, that sounds risky and what if we hit the edge, okay.

Okay. And he says however precisely because America religion has long cherished its opposition to more traditional forms of Christianity in favor of the sovereign Inner-experience of the individual. I mean when you get down to it, how many False religions have there been invented in the United States a lot of them in the 1800s based on the sovereign inner experience of the individual whether it's you know, Joseph Smith seeing a vision or whether it's Mary Baker Eddie or you know Whomever it is and he says it not only survives but thrives in the atmosphere of this secularizing process Where truth becomes more true for you and what everybody else thinks it's kind of irrelevant.

Consumer Christianity and the Rise of Therapeutic Leadership

Okay, number four. Why do leaders of American evangelicalism Resemble fortune 500 executives. Okay, their bottom line oriented Marketing is a big one. Okay, well and and you're on to it there because he Horton says if Christianity is about public truth delivered through an external word that ministry and Evangelism require educated leaders who can expound and apply the truth for the benefit of those under their care by contrast.

If Christianity is reduced to personal experience, then its leadership will consist of the most successful and Trump entrepreneurs and managers of Extraordinary staged events. In other words, we can expect to get Joe Loewenstein we can expect to have people with Personality who look like a million dollars, etc, etc, etc, which is why at this church you have Mike and me.

Sorry, sorry about that. Sorry. Sorry. But yeah, if it's if it's to be packaged if it's going to be market Driven kind of thing Aimed at the consumer then you're going to get these very special events.

Number five. What is the best evidence that American evangelicalism has become consumer driven? That's a really good one, right? Seeker sensitivity. Yeah, he notes. I mean I I didn't go through every I didn't have time to list everything.

You know, obviously it's in the book. But one of the things he says about Osteen is one of his books was categorized by the Library of Congress as Psychology and kind of like subcategory Had something to do with Christian, you know Literature or something like that, but its main thing was psychology and I thought that's right Horton says this he says an extreme formulation of American evangelicalism is the case of Sheila ism which you've heard of before probably a Private religion invented by one of the interview subjects cited in habits of the hearts the tenets of Sheila's faith.

Consists of the messages of her own little voice. So, you know and you've you've all talked to people like this. Why do you believe X Y Z or Because it's just what I believe. It's what seems right to me.

It's what feels right. I Mean I could give you example after example, I mean how often I it's hard for me and probably for a lot of you men when you see Someone loses a loved one, you know, they die and they go they'll say well God needed so-and-so or Heaven just gained an angel or so-and-so got her wings or you know.

Just you know, it just you just keep going and I'm just like I want to just go that's wrong. You know that person is in purgatory, right? Oh wait. You want to just kind of like intervene and go. You know if that person didn't trust alert, but you don't why don't you do that by the way?

Yeah, I mean Actually that person's rotting in hell, you know, and unless you repent you'll do likewise now, is that true? But you know, we're not Jesus and we need to remember that. Yeah, that's very true and we we weep with those who weep right.

Yeah, let's be appropriate, okay. Horton Horton goes on and he says That Christians are no longer martyrs that is witnesses To God's unique intervention in history in Christ's incarnation life death and resurrection.

We become satisfied. Customers who offer testimonials to how much a personal relationship with Jesus has improved our life. In this pragmatic and therapeutic context, it makes a little sense to talk about Jesus as the way the truth of life.

Apart from whom there is no salvation. We would rather commend Christ as someone who we have found personally helpful and meaningful as we encounter life's challenges. It's all about self-improvement.

It's all about you know, how do we deal with? The issues of life rather than Eternal life, right? Where where where do we come from? Where are we going those kind of things the eternal questions? So American evangelicalism has fallen quite a way right number six.

Who is to blame for secularizing American evangelicalism? I got tired of typing it again because I'm lazy. AE became American evangelicalism who's to blame for secularizing it making it more like the world.

Americans let's go to the board. That's true, but that's kind of broad right we could blame 300 million people for it, but that wouldn't be right. Yeah, I wouldn't be right to blame one person. How about could we just think about it this way?

Would it be wrong to say that in some measure? It's Christians who are responsible for the secularization of I mean just imagine if these churches churches opened up that are just stage shows and You know dramas about coffee or whatever.

They're they're talking about and nobody and nobody went. Be hard to keep them going. It's it's not really wrong. You know if you just think about were to Teach our children, right? I mean, that's what Israel was to do as well.

Do you do you run across Christians or people that you think are Christians? Who seem almost embarrassed to teach their kids? I mean, I think I think we see that. Certainly in the in America writ large outside of Christianity.

What do parents often say? I mean, I don't you see things like, you know a star or somebody and they'll say That they're going to let their kids figure their faith out on their own or they're going to let them do that.

You know, they'll discover that on their own. Well, they will right. Yeah, I mean, but it's probably not going to go well. He says it is not secular humanists, but we ourselves. Who are secularizing the faith by transforming its odd message.

Into something far less jarring to the American psyche because if we say here's our message a Jew who lived 2 ,000 years ago. You know was God incarnate and he died for your sins and was raised on the third day.

And by trusting in him and his perfections alone. You can go to heaven people are like, yeah, that doesn't help me and. They're right doesn't may not help them at all in this life, but that's not the point.

Huh a fear of a fit. Well, yeah well, and if we just. Well, if we just think about first Corinthians one, right if the gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing. Well, then why would we proclaim it to them?

We have to give them something that they'll like. Give the people what they want. Wes. Thank you. Well because we are pragmatists, right? We want things that work. Right. I have a pragmatic message, which is I'm better for your bottom line well, or how about this you give somebody the gospel and they look at you and go and.

How does that help me what does that do for me? How does that help my family? I'm but you know what? I'm not at war with God. God and I are cool. That's well, I think I think that's Presbyterian friends you know, but it for example, if the the whole purpose-driven model.

You go there on Sunday or Saturday, you know, take your pick and. You won't hear the gospel, but they'll tell you, you know, if you come back on Wednesday evening. Then we'll we'll talk about you know, those kind of things.

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Or a Thursday or you know, whatever. Oh, sorry Thursday is recovery night. Okay, so Moving moving on to number seven. They're very pragmatic number seven true or false. God is sometimes anguished by our actions.

You just say that with great authority. Yeah, it is false. But this is Horton talking about it. Why is it false? Yeah. Yeah, he's well, he's not surprised but he's also not mutable meaning he doesn't change.

He doesn't he's what's the correct theological term for it? He's. He's without passions, right? He doesn't have emotions. So this whole idea of God wringing his hands. False, I don't know. I don't remember that.

Well, maybe Ben maybe Ben remembers. But it wouldn't be fair to just ask him when he just walked in, you know I Don't know. Here's what here's what I would say. You know, it's enough. It's sufficient to just say that he would not be anguished but let me read what he says here.

He says in a therapeutic paradigm. Not only the parishioner but even God is put on the couch as we empathetically interpret his feelings. God is never angry or judgmental toward people. In fact, he is more anguished than we are since he knows how much our actions can harm us.

Mm-hmm. He is simply waiting for us to come to our senses like the father in the parable of the prodigal son. We might even be inclined to feel sorry for this deity. I mean, of course the problem with that is if God's sitting on the couch, you know.

Wringing his hands hoping that we're going to get better. He's going to be terribly disappointed. Because we're not going to get better. And all we'd have to do is look at Ephesians 2 and we'd see okay people are dead in their sins and trespasses and They only get better.

When? When God intervenes. When he causes us to be born again. Then he says these sermon samples treated God exclusively as the extravagant lover. In fact love overwhelms law. God sets aside any question of merit duty or achievement and simply embraces the prodigal.

God never really surprises us because his behavior is always predictable. He would never do anything to offend us. Consequently, there is no suggestion that we need a mediator at all. According to these sermons God's love need not be correlated with his holiness righteousness and justice.

God loves you just as you are. You know, this is a Billy this is a Billy Joel song. You know God singing you don't go don't don't go changing and try and please me. Not the neighbor part. So which part?

Okay, yeah, that's. Let's just put on a sweater and ask everybody to be our neighbor. Okay other thoughts but questions concerns heresies. Number eight. True or false ultimately the goal of American evangelicalism is spiritual transformation.

That is false is a $3 bill. Which might come into vogue and. Yeah, that's bogus he says drugs and sexual promiscuity are not wrong because they offend God. Think about that for a moment. I mean, what does that suggest says the law isn't really all that valuable according to most of these sermons.

Because they cannot compare. Here's what makes Drugs and sex outside of marriage wrong. They cannot compare with the joy and happiness of living God's way. They're not wrong as much as unfulfilling they wear off all the emphasis is on celebration and happiness as in one sermons assertion.

It feels good to be a Christian. Well, and not only that spiritual transfer transformation. It's not what they're about. Horton finishes here. He says when you were trying to sell a product like therapeutic transformation.

There can be no ambiguity. No sense of anxiety tension or struggle. In other words, you're to feel better about yourself as you are. Right, and the reason you don't fit the reason you're using drugs or sex is because you don't feel good about yourself.

Right salve. Yeah salve. Okay, so. So I I mentioned this before I had a friend who died. He you know, he was in my first little Men's group where we did promise keepers. We did it for a week and we hated it so much we stopped.

But Andy Andy got I mean he was I think my age and he got ALS. And you know Subsequently died at his funeral room full of I mean a room four or five times the size packed and mostly with police officers and.

The pastor prayed and he said I know many of you have tried sex alcohol. To to heal your wounds. He goes won't you please try Jesus. Give him six months and see if he won't make a difference in your life.

Try to keep your eyes closed during that prayer. I couldn't do it. I fired off a really heartwarming letter to that pastor and He wrote back and he just said, you know I can tell that you have very strong feelings and it wouldn't be worth, you know, that's talking and I just thought I have very strong feelings.

Yeah, I mean lots of Bible verses. Those are my feelings. Yeah, I mean, I mean that's the key right if you're if you think about Jesus like I Mean, I I think what I essentially wrote and I'm not I wasn't wrong.

You wrote about Jesus like he was laundry soap. Try him for six months and see if he won't get your shirts wider and brighter and it was just awful. Absolutely awful. You're talking about the God of the universe whom you're supposed to represent and you sounded like you're peddling a product.

He was yeah number nine. True or false while we cannot affirm sin. It is important to welcome all. I'm really not defining it. Well, what if we just had a sign out front that says all are welcome, okay, we'd be the Methodist what would that imply?

Anthony and we'd be the Nirvana Church. Come as you are. I mean, basically if we put one out there that says all are welcome. It's going to remind me of a Conversation I had with a politician not long ago.

He said he said well, let me ask you this Steve. Could a homosexual join your church? What's the answer to that? Could he join? There you go. Because when if I say could a homosexual well, you might as well ask me could a drunkard join our church.

Could an adulterer join our church? What does that mean? If I say well, hey Friends this guy here is a drunkard and today we're allowing him to join the church. What would I be saying about this guy here?

That he that he's staying that he's still a drunkard at this moment right now. This guy right here that we're about to embrace as a brother in Christ is a drunkard. He gets drunk nearly every day. He cheats on his wife almost every day.

He is out there swinging around in the homosexual bars, you know every weekend. Why don't we let people like that in the church. Because the Bible says they're going to hell. Right thieves adulterers, you know, etc.

I mean, so we we you know that I said to him I won't identify him, but I said to him I said well. Here's the problem. We'd say welcome so-and-so and by the way, he's under church discipline. You're to go to him and call him to repent if he doesn't repent we're going to have to remove him from fellowship.

It would be stupid we're allowing somebody in who should be under Matthew 18, right? Welcome now hit the road, dude. We give him the right hand and the left foot in the same week. The other hand, okay the left hand.

Would you okay. Well, yes and. Okay, how about if to come in. Yeah, I mean, you know, there are all sorts of edge cases you have to go they come strolling in, you know. Then what? Vulcan. Vulcan nerve pinch.

Speak for yourself. I have to control my eyes. Why didn't happen why didn't you get the heave-ho? I mean after all listen, let's just let's just think about it for a moment. He entered holy ground, right?

And we didn't ruin. But he was in the sanctuary. What do we call it when the fog lights come on? Why didn't anybody why would we exactly it's not a church service. The words not being taught. We're not here for for Fellowship in the strictest Definition of the term we're here for what did you hear the gospel that night?

Yes, really? Did he and if he did maybe he did but you know, it was probably like at the opening person. Yeah, well, let's put it this way if we had. Let's say, you know, I'm the new Billy Graham and we had the Steve Cooley crusade on Saturday.

Okay, and there are all manner of. You know sinners in here sexual deviants and drug addicts. And whatever. Should we escort those people out before we do the message? I and so I think there's a major difference though between.

Any kind of a church setting and you know? Dan Dan tone and the Abel phones or whatever. Dan Dan Abel and the Gables tone tones or whoever they are was Dan Gable. Is it that it? Okay, see I. So anyway, I just think it's a category difference, you know, it's not a church meeting.

Okay number. Okay, that was number nine. Let's see. What did he say? Okay. He says without condoning their sane their sin. Says one Southern Baptist pastor. We should go out to the poor the blacks the Hispanics the beer drinkers because you never know the blacks and Hispanics they might be.

So dumb the way he says that we should go out to the poor the blacks. I mean like these this first three groups you just go are they sinners and then beer drinkers? Oh, well me if they drink Bud Light and and the divorced I Don't understand any of that he says the deflection of sin to outsiders could hardly be more obvious.

The main Presbyterian strategy however was to resist offering evaluations and to empathize with both brothers. And none of the sermons talk about sin and theological terms exemplified in the omission of the foundation.

Foundational doctrine of original sin we talked about sin we talked about being in Adams. We talked about original sin and this is what the church should be doing, right? Why do you come to church because you hear you're here to hear about a Savior saves you from your sin.

Not who makes your life better? Number ten, why would American Evangelicalism de-emphasize God's transcendence. Well, I I think the first part you said is absolutely right, you know the idea of God's perfection.

What does that do to us? Makes us feel bad about ourselves, right. Which again, you know, what are the what are people looking for? They're looking to for something that works for them something that makes them feel better about themselves.

Not that makes them feel worse about themselves. So. Yeah, it's really hard to make him your invisible friend if he's holy and you know, you're not he says liberals and revivalists both de-emphasize God's transcendence and Tend to see God's Word as something that wells up Within a person rather than as something that comes to a person from outside in other words.

What truth is subjective not objective? The key to salvation thus lies within the self. The charge to the individual person is to listen and be receptive to this inner voice. Also since sin, you know, why do I hate that song and he walks with me and he talks with me.

It's because of this this whole American idea that Faith is subjective. Also since sin was regarded largely as error or ignorance. Which is in keeping with liberal beliefs in the essential goodness of humankind.

The view prevailed that behavioral change can come through come about through education about ethical and moral concerns. So it goes on to say conversion is basically self-fulfillment conversion is up to us.

Well, this is now getting into Osteen. Conversion is up to us, but it's relatively easy to attain. It only requires emotional self-awareness. Openness and receptivity. I mean when I. When I read that when I start thinking about that, you know, what I think of is 12-step meetings.

Of which of course all people are entirely capable. You know anything that you can't change about yourself. You just give up to your higher power. Conversion will bring about bonding with God so he can be your invisible buddy.

Meaningful relationships and triumph over one's daily problems. This is what Americans want out of their religion to feel better about themselves to feel closer with God. And to improve their relationships and to have some kind of solution for their daily problems.

The Therapeutic God and the Denial of Human Sin

Number 11, what is wrong with suggesting God wants to do something in your life, okay. Okay, okay. Wes I think you're getting close Brian. I think that's. That's not exactly how I would say it. But yeah, that's exactly right.

Because here's the idea, you know God wants to do something. Won't you let him? Yeah, Dan. Okay, but even then, you know, if I say to somebody God wants to save you. What does that mean? God is yearning.

You know. So sad, you know if he's if he's counting on me, he's really you're in trouble. Please let me in Steve. Number 11. What is wrong with suggesting? Oh, I did that. Sorry. He says among the typical concluding remarks are the following open yourself to the salvation that God wants to work in your life.

Awful. So instead of introducing he goes on to say instead of introducing people to a majestic God who nevertheless Condescended it condescended in mercy to save those who cannot save themselves. These sermons.

Even with the parable of the prodigal son as their text proclaim a message that can be summarized as moralistic therapeutic deism. Meaning God it just kind of sets things in motion. Then he stands back and he's a witness.

He can't do anything without your permission. Awful. There were 12. In what ways does the word of faith message resemble Gnosticism. Good good a number of theologians I pointed out the striking similarities between this prosperity message and ancient Gnosticism.

Like the ancient heresy the word of faith message assumes a sharp dualism between spirit and matter promising mastery over one's external circumstances. By learning the secret principles of the invisible realm.

Although creation itself is corrupt. Referred to frequently as the natural you don't want to operate in the natural right you want to not operate in the supernatural. These teachers claim that the inner self is divine.

Here's Kenneth Copeland. You don't have a God living in you. You are one you are part and parcel of God. Yes, yes. Mm-hmm yeah, we should have lots of wealthy people. It's amazing though of all the billionaires in the United States I don't hear about too many and name it and claim it billionaires.

Right because you're creating. Yeah. Okay number 13 true or false. God records every good thing you do and reward you for it. You know I I don't have a problem with true as long as you have the right Concept of it.

Right he records every good thing you do. Okay. Well that wouldn't take much time. Yeah. And he rewards you for it, here's some breadcrumb dust you know. Thank you. Osteen counsels readers simply to reject guilt and condemnation.

Yet it is hard to do that successfully when God's favor and blessing on my life. Depend entirely on how well I can put his commands to work. This is a quote if you will simply obey his commands. He will change things in your favor.

That's all simply obey his commands. That's all you have to do. Just obey the Word of God. Gravy tree. This is Horton. Everything depends on us, but it's easy. Osteen seems to think that we are basically good people and God has a very easy way for us to save ourselves.

Not from his judgment. Nope, that's what we need now what we need salvation from but from our lack of success in life. With his help with God's help God is keeping a record of every good deed is a quote from Osteen a very good deed you've ever done.

Then Horton interjects. He says as if this is good news. And he continues in your time of need because of your generosity God will move heaven and earth to make sure you are taken care of and you know I have to interject this for a moment because I've I've had people come up to me after a Sunday morning where.

You know I may have blasted this or that false teacher and say you know pastor. I don't know why you have to speak negatively of these men and women who are doing their best. You know proclaim the truth.

Well, I mean part. You know what what would you say to somebody who says that? Thus explaining why Chuck is not a pastor. Anthony. Okay, do these false teachers. You know give the good news, and they might you know like oh.

She does or oh he does. Ben. Yeah, it is it is. I mean you know Titus and Titus 1 9 right says you. Exhort elders are to exhort and send doctrine or a few those who contradict, and you know there's no shortage of examples of false teachers in the Bible who get called out.

And why is that because God doesn't really like false teachers? So I mean many will say to me on that day did we not do? Thus and such in your name and cast out demons and what's Jesus going to say? You know what after thinking about it.

You're right. Yeah, yeah, I was really too harsh. Oh. Depart from me. I mean they are right. Have we not done this and have we not in that. I mean I? You know the whole resume. Presentation. I mean can you imagine judgment day Lord look at my resume.

No, thanks. I'll pass. Yeah. Number 14 true or false it is troubling when other religions latch on to Christian teaching. I could have put alleged Christian Horton says about OC. There is nothing in his message about the Trinity or the resurrection of the dead and the age to come.

In fact there's little mention of Christ at all a point that even reporters have pressed in the interviews with Osteen or Even Pat Avendroth has pressed with Osteen. The televangelist shrugs off such concerns by saying that different people have different giftings and His mission is to help people live better.

Is there a problem with that if I say my message is my gifting is to help people live better? I mean you know I come for people in this life, and then they can go to hell. You know I I mean if he said if he said it that way everybody be like dude.

That's pretty harsh, but that's the reality. Osteen frequently points to the fact that adherence of other religions embrace his message. Apparently without sensing any need for conversion as a sign of his success.

You think about that. Oh, I've got Buddhists who use my book, and I've got Mormons who use my book, and I've got Bro number 15 true or false. God saves us based upon our personal relationship with Jesus.

How can you say that that's the goal of Christianity is to have a personal relationship with Jesus isn't it bad? I mean that question I bet I bet if I went out and did a survey like you know just some Sunday morning just sitting outside of Church not this church, but a lot of truth even this church.

I probably get too many people would say oh, that's true. That's definitely true. God saves us based upon our personal relationship with Jesus. Now is there truth in that? Yes, yes, he could reject this based on it.

I mean you know let's put it this way if If God said you know what if your relationship with Jesus is all that it should be I'll let you into my kingdom. How do you like your chances? It's really bad news.

Yeah, amen. I mean can you imagine here are the basics of? The Reformation Sola Scriptura. You know Sola Sola Sola, then you get Sola relation. Relationships, uh you know my it's based on my relationship with Christ.

No, it's based on. Yeah, grace. You know through faith. He says one could easily come away from this type of message concluding that we are not saved by Christ's objective work for us. But by our subjective personal relationship with Jesus through a series of works that we perform to secure his favor and blessing.

False Assurance, Sin, and the Law of God

Boy, that's rough. Number 16 true or false it is enough for salvation that one loves God. How do you say that it's false. Osteen said that he's not sure what happens to people who reject Christ. Larry King followed up with a question about Jews Muslims and other non-christians.

They're wrong aren't they. I mean Larry King's like trying to help him. Larry King the guy who doesn't understand Christianity anyway, it says hey, come on Let me help you out Osteen replied. Well, I don't know if they believe they're wrong or I don't.

Well I don't know if they believe if I believe they're wrong. I believe here's what the Bible teaches and From the Christian faith. This is what I believe. But I just think that only God will judge a person's heart now, is that true?

Yes. Yes. Only God can judge me. I Spent a lot of time in India with my father. I don't know all about their religion, but I know they love God sir, I Know I live they love thousands of gods and I don't know I've seen their sincerity.

So, I don't know I know for me and what the Bible teaches. I want to have a relationship with Jesus but I. You know what? I would really enjoy is that you know be at his church sometime and like on a Sunday morning before the service and Have them just look at me and go tell you what Steve.