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prayer Our father in heaven what a delight it is to be here this morning to have these men here to be able to discuss the the slide away from truth and American evangelicalism father encourage us
Not because of what people do but because of what you have done and will do In your church and through your church and for your glory
Father remind us again and again of the gospel Which we are here to promulgate to spread to proclaim
Help us Strengthen us in Jesus name. Amen Okay, so yeah somebody said
I never knew so much about Joel Osteen, well, there you go You know, it's interesting just before we start the quiz
Well, Dave you did this you went to I want to call holding days.
It wasn't holding days What was the thing in West Boylston last year West Boylston days?
Hi. I don't know It wasn't Harvest Fest it wasn't a Christian thing
Yeah, but but the guy from the local yokel church said hey you guys want to send some people and so I Asked a few people and a few people went including
Dave and was it glorious and to have good fellowship with fellow believers Sad times.
Okay, so number one What should you think when a church announces good news, that's a stumper.
Well, you should think that there's going to be good news, right? Yeah, I mean
I I saw that and I thought well good, you know, that means the gospel is coming next well maybe
Right. I mean if somebody says I have good news for you, and then they give you the gospel do you go? Oh, man, I was hoping for some news
I'm usually thinking well at least somebody's preaching the gospel, you know, so anybody who doesn't have a quiz by the way
Okay, seeing them. Well, no, I hit
I took this out of the book because it's just you know And here well here was my official answer the gospel is
What I should expect to hear when I hear good news or you know, so -and -so's out of the hospital That would be good news,
I guess but you know, I would expect to hear Good news and not this drivel
And I quoted out of the out of the book Hi neighbor at last a new church for those who have given up on church services
Let's face it many people are not active in church these days Why too often the sermons are boring and don't relate to daily living many churches seem more interested in your wallet than in you
Members are unfriendly to visitors you wonder about the quality of the nursery care for your little ones
Do you attend do you think attending church should be enjoyable? Well, we've got good news for you
Valley Church is the new church designed to meet your needs in the 1990s blah blah blah blah blah blah.
This is Yeah Yeah, I mean if that's your concern, you know instead of a letdown this
Sunday when I get a lift Yeah, there you go. And Unfortunately, that's you know, that's most
Churches these days Okay, number two what lives between The spiritual and the psychological the transcendent and the pragmatic he lives within my heart
These are really two I guess I should have waited gun started with some true false ones
The correct answer is American Christianity today lives in this contradiction between the spiritual and the psychological the transcendent and the pragmatic according to the well -known secularization theory of Max Weber religion under the conditions of modernity
Goes through various stages first religion is privatized. Its domain shrunk to the island of private subjectivity and So what this question is really driving at is what's happened to American Christian Christianity.
Well, it's become a very private kind of religion, right where you get to choose what you like and Nobody's nobody's going to bore you with a bunch of lame sermons just coming from the
Bible. It's going to be stuff that you can use Mmm number three
Why did American Christianity? I mean that true false would be just too easy here So I'm trying to get you guys thinking a little bit.
Why did American Christianity have to morph change from traditional Christianity? Okay, so to accommodate culture, right
Christianity says Christ did everything Americanism says
You can do it you can improve yourself Yeah, so to to kind of meld together
Christianity and American thought Takes a little bit of work a little bit of ingenuity
You know, how do you make church? Relic relevant, how do you make it feel authentic?
well what Horton says the creedal objective and historical faith of traditional
Christianity could not be Translated into purely subjective terms in other words
You can't take the creeds and confessions historical Christianity and make it subjective.
How what does this mean to me? however Precisely because American religion has long cherished its opposition
To more traditional forms of Christianity in favor of the sovereign inner experience of the individual.
I mean if you think about the Quakers other You know forms of odd oddity.
I mean I would even argue Congregationalism, what is congregationalism? Yeah, and it's the official religion of Massachusetts you say
I mean I had an argument with somebody who On election evening came striding up to me.
He's the head of the Democrats and then in town. He says Says you say you're a constitutionalist and not a
Christianist. Do you believe in the separation of church and state and I said No, because it's not my
Constitution. I said as evidence I point to the corner where there's a congregational church because every town in Massachusetts had to have a congregational church
Why because we had a state religion the Constitution says what?
Congress shall make no law so Lots of states had official religions including our very own,
Massachusetts, but getting back to congregationalism You know, we don't want a bunch of Stayed kind of stuffy guys
Elders tell us what to do. So instead we'll vote. That's the American way, right? Congregationalism and Because I think
Well, I think that kind of comes a little bit later. I'd say, you know, though the rugged individualism of America I mean just imagine what the
United States would look like if men Were afraid to go outside of the village
Right, I don't want to go out there. It's too scary There'd be no westward expansion, you know, we'd all be just huddled on the coast
You know waiting for global warming to drown us I Know because it'd just be too scary to me, you know, that sounds risky and what if we hit the edge, okay
Okay And he says however precisely because American religion has long cherished its opposition to more traditional forms of Christianity in favor of the sovereign inner experience of the individual
I mean when you get down to it, how many false religions have there been invented in the
United States a lot of them in the 1800s based on the sovereign inner experience of the individual whether it's you know
Joseph Smith seeing a vision or whether it's Mary Baker Eddie or you know Whomever it is and he says it not only survives but thrives in the atmosphere of this secularizing process
Where truth becomes more true for you and what everybody else thinks it's kind of irrelevant
Okay, number four Why do leaders of American evangel? evangel evangel
Evangelism Resemble fortune 500 executives. Okay, they're bottom line oriented
Marketing is a big one Okay.
Well and and you're on to it there because he Horton says if Christianity is about public truth delivered through an external word than ministry and Evangelism require educated leaders who can expound and apply the truth for the benefit of those under their care by contrast
If Christianity is reduced to personal experience, then its leadership will consist of the most successful and Trump and entrepreneurs and managers of Extraordinary staged events.
In other words, we can expect to get Joe Loewenstein we can expect to have people with Personality who look like a million dollars, etc, etc, etc, which is why at this church you have
Mike and me Sorry, sorry about that.
Sorry. Sorry But yeah, if it's if it's to be packaged if it's going to be market driven kind of thing
Aimed at the consumer then you're going to get these very special events Number five, what is the best evidence that American evangelicalism has become consumer driven?
That's a really good one, right? Seeker sensitivity. Yeah, and he notes.
I mean I I didn't go through every I didn't have time to list everything You know, obviously it's in the book.
But one of the things he says about Osteen is one of his books was categorized by the
Library of Congress as Psychology and kind of like subcategory
Had something to do with Christian, you know Literature or something like that, but its main thing was psychology and I thought that's right
Horton says this he says an extreme formulation of American evangelicalism is the case of Sheila ism
Which you've heard of before probably a private religion invented by one of the interview subjects cited in habits of the hearts the tenets of Sheila's faith
Consists of the messages of her own little voice So, you know and you've you've all talked to people like this.
Why do you believe X Y & Z or? Because it's just what
I believe it's what seems right to me. It's what feels right and I Mean I could give you example after example.
I mean how often I It's hard for me and probably for a lot of you men when you see
Someone loses a loved one, you know, they die and they go they'll say well
God needed so -and -so or Heaven just gained an angel or so -and -so got her wings or you know
Just you know, it just you just keep going and I'm just like I want to just go that's wrong
You know that person is in purgatory, right? Oh wait You want to just kind of like intervene and go
You know if that person didn't trust alert, but you don't why don't you do that by the way? Yeah, I mean
Actually that person's rotting in hell, you know, and unless you repent you'll do likewise now, is that true?
But you know, we're not Jesus and we need to remember that Yeah, he went that's very true and we we weep with those who weep right and so Yeah, let's be appropriate.
Okay Horton Horton goes on he says That Christians are no longer martyrs that is witnesses
To God's unique intervention in history in Christ's incarnation life death and resurrection.
We become satisfied customers Who offer testimonials to how much a personal relationship with Jesus has improved our life?
In this pragmatic and therapeutic context It makes a little sense to talk about Jesus as the way the truth of life
Apart from whom there is no salvation We would rather commend Christ as someone whom we have found personally helpful and meaningful as we encounter life's challenges
It's all about self -improvement. It's all about you know, how do we deal with? The issues of life rather than Eternal life, right?
Where where where do we come from? Where are we going those kind of things the eternal questions? So American evangelicalism has fallen quite a way
Right number six who is to blame for secularizing American evangelicalism
I got tired of typing it again because I'm lazy AE became American evangelicalism who's to blame for secularizing it making it more like the world
Americans, let's go to the board That's true, but that's kind of broad right we could blame 300 million people for it, but that wouldn't be right
Yeah, I wouldn't be right to blame one person. How about could we just think about this way? Would it be wrong to say that in some measure?
It's Christians who are responsible for the secularization of I mean just imagine if these churches churches opened up that are just stage shows and You know dramas about coffee or whatever.
They're they're talking about and nobody and nobody went Be hard to keep them going And It's it's not really wrong, you know, if you just think about were to Teach our children, right?
I mean, that's what Israel was to do as well And do you do you run across Christians or people that you think are
Christians? Who seem almost embarrassed to teach their kids? I mean,
I think I think we see that Certainly in the in America writ large outside of Christianity What do parents often say
I mean, I don't you see things like, you know a star or somebody and they'll say
That they're going to let their kids figure their faith out on their own or they're going to let them do that You know, they'll discover that on their own.
Well, they will right Yeah, I I mean, but it's probably not going to go well
He says it is not secular humanists, but we ourselves Who are secularizing the faith by transforming its odd message
Into something far less jarring to the American psyche because if we say here's our message a
Jew who lived 2 ,000 years ago You know was God incarnate and he died for your sins and was raised on the third day
And by trusting in him and his perfections alone you can go to heaven people are like, yeah, that doesn't help me
And they're right doesn't may not help them at all in this life, but that's not the point
Huh a Fear of a fit.
Well, yeah well, if we just Well, if we just think about first Corinthians one, right if the gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing
Well, then why would we proclaim it to them We have to give them something that they'll like Give the people what they want
Wes. Thank you
Right What big well because we are pragmatists right we want things that work right
Well, I have a pragmatic message which is I'm better for your bottom line Well, or how about this you give somebody the gospel and they look at you and go
And how does that help me? What does that do for me? How does that help my family?
I'm but you know what? I'm not at war with God. God and I are cool
Well, I think
I think that's For our
Presbyterian friends, you know, but it for example if the the whole purpose -driven model
You go there on Sunday or Saturday, you know take your pick and You won't hear the gospel, but they'll tell you, you know, if you come back on Wednesday evening
Then we'll we'll talk about you know, those kind of things. Yeah, that's right.
Yeah Or a Thursday or you know, whatever. Oh, sorry. Thursday is recovery night.
Okay, so Moving moving on to number seven I mean, they're very pragmatic number seven true or false
God is sometimes anguished by our actions. You guys say that with great authority
Yeah, it is false. But this is Horton talking about it. Why is it false?
Yet. Yeah, he's well, he's not surprised but he's also not mutable meaning he doesn't change
He doesn't he's what's the correct theological term for it? He's He's without passions, right?
He doesn't have emotions. So this whole idea of God wringing his hands
False, I don't know.
I don't remember that. Well, maybe Ben maybe Ben remembers But it wouldn't be fair to just ask him when he just walked in, you know, so Yeah, I I don't know.
Here's what here's what I would say You know, it's enough. It's sufficient to just say that he would not be anguished.
But let me read what he says here He says in a therapeutic paradigm Not only the parishioner, but even
God is put on the couch as we empathetically interpret his feelings God is never angry or judgmental toward people
In fact, he is more anguished than we are since he knows how much our actions can harm us
Mm -hmm He is simply waiting for us to come to our senses like the father in the parable of the prodigal son
We might even be inclined to feel sorry for this deity I mean, of course the problem with that is if God's sitting on the couch, you know wringing his hands hoping that we're going to get better He's going to be terribly disappointed
Because we're not going to get better All we'd have to do is look at Ephesians 2 and we'd see okay people are dead in their sins and trespasses and They only get better when?
When God intervenes when he causes us to be born again Then he says these sermon samples treated
God exclusively as the extravagant lover in fact love overwhelms law
God sets aside any question of merit duty or achievement and simply embraces the prodigal
God never really surprises us because his behavior is always predictable. He would never do anything to offend us
Consequently, there is no suggestion that we need a mediator at all According to these sermons
God's love need not be correlated with his holiness righteousness and justice
God loves you just as you are You know, this is a Billy this is a
Billy Joel song You know God singing you don't go don't don't go change it and try and please me
Not the neighbor part. So which part? Okay, yeah, that's
Let's just put on a sweater and ask everybody to be our neighbor. Okay other thoughts but questions concerns heresies number eight
True or false ultimately the goal of American evangelicalism is spiritual transformation
That is false is a $3 bill Which might come into vogue and Yeah, that's bogus he says drugs and sexual promiscuity are not wrong because they offend
God Think about that for a moment Mm -hmm. I mean, what does that suggest says the law isn't really all that valuable according to most of these sermons
Because they cannot compare Here's what makes Drugs and sex outside of marriage wrong.
They cannot compare with the joy and happiness of living God's way They're not wrong as much as unfulfilling.
They wear off all the emphasis is on celebration and happiness as in one sermons assertion
It feels good to be a Christian Well, and not only that spiritual transfer transformation is not what they're about Horton finishes here
He says when you were trying to sell a product like therapeutic transformation There can be no ambiguity.
No sense of anxiety tension or struggle in other words You're to feel better about yourself as you are
Right, and the reason you don't fit the reason you're using drugs or sex is because you don't feel good about yourself
Brian Sav yeah salve
Okay, so So I Mentioned this before I had a friend who died
He you know, he was in my first little Men's group where we did promise keepers. We did it for a week and we hated it so much we stopped
But Andy Andy got I mean he was I think my age and he got
ALS and You know Subsequently died at his funeral
Roomful of I mean a room four or five times the size packed and mostly with police officers and The pastor prayed and he said
I know many of you have tried
Sex alcohol To to heal your wounds
Yes, won't you please try Jesus? Give him six months and see if he won't make a difference in your life.
Try to keep your eyes closed during that prayer I couldn't do it.
I fired off a really heartwarming letter to that pastor and He wrote back and he just said, you know
I can tell that you have very strong feelings and it wouldn't be worth, you know, that's talking and I just thought I have very strong feelings.
Yeah, I mean lots of Bible verses. Those are my feelings and Yeah, I mean
I mean that's the key right if you're if you think about Jesus like I Mean, I I think what
I essentially wrote and I'm not I wasn't wrong You wrote about Jesus like he was laundry soap
Try him for six months and see if he won't get your shirts wider and brighter and it was just awful
Absolutely awful. You're talking about the God of the universe whom you're supposed to represent and you sounded like you're peddling a product
He was yeah number nine True or false while we cannot affirm sin.
It is important to welcome all I'm really not defining it
Well, what if we just had a sign out front that says all are welcome, okay, we'd be the
Methodist what would that imply Anthony We'd be the
Nirvana Church Come as you I Mean basically if we put one out there that says all are welcome.
It's going to remind me of a Conversation I had with a politician not long ago. He said He said well, let me ask you this
Steve Could a homosexual join your church? What's the answer to that?
Could he join You know, there you go because when if I say could a homosexual well
You might as well ask me could a drunkard join our church could an adulterer join our church
What does that mean? If I say well, hey friends this guy here is a drunkard and today
We're allowing him to join the church. What would I be saying about this guy here that he that he's staying that He's still a drunkard at this moment right now
This guy right here that we're about to embrace as a brother in Christ is a drunkard he gets drunk nearly every day
He cheats on his wife almost every day He is out there swinging around in the homosexual bars, you know every weekend
Why don't we let people like that in the church? Because the
Bible says they're going to hell Right thieves adulterers, you know, etc
I mean, so we you know that I said to him I want to identify him, but I said to him
I said well Here's the problem We'd say welcome so -and -so and by the way, he's under church discipline
You're to go to him and call him to repent if he doesn't repent we're going to have to remove him from fellowship
It would be stupid we're allowing somebody in who should be under Matthew 18, right?
Yeah Welcome now hit the road, dude We give them the right hand and left foot in the same week
The other hand, okay the left hand Would you okay.
Well, yes and Okay, how about if to come in Yeah, I Mean, you know, there are all sorts of edge cases.
You have to go they come stroll it in, you know Then what? Vulcan Vulcan nerve pinch
I Have to control my eyes
Why why didn't it happen? Why didn't you get the heave -ho? I mean after all listen, let's just let's just think about it for a moment
He entered holy ground, right and we didn't ruin but he was in the sanctuary
What do we call it when the fog lights come on Why didn't anybody why would we exactly it's not a church service
The words not being taught. We're not here for for Fellowship in the strictest
Definition of the term we're here for what did you hear the gospel that night?
Yes, really? Did he and if he did maybe he did but you know, it was probably like at the opening prayer or something.
Yeah Well, let's put it this way if we had
Let's say, you know, I'm the new Billy Graham and we had the Steve Cooley crusade on Saturday.
Okay, and there are all manner of You know sinners in here sexual deviants and drug addicts and whatever
Should we escort those people out before we do the message? I and so I think there's a major difference though between Any kind of a church setting and you know
Dan Dan tone and the able phones or whatever I don't know
Dan Dan Abel and the Gables tone tones or whoever they are was
Dan Gable. Is it that it? Okay. See I So anyway,
I just think it's a category difference, you know, it's not a church meeting Okay number
Okay, that was number nine. Let's see. What did he say? Okay. He says without condoning their saying their sin
Says one Southern Baptist pastor we should go out to the poor the blacks the Hispanics the beer drinkers because you never know the blacks and Hispanics they might be
So dumb the way he says that we should go out to the poor the blacks. I Mean like these this first three groups.
You just go are they sinners and then beer drinkers? Oh, well me if they drink Bud Light and And the divorced
I Yeah, I don't understand any of that he says the deflection of sin to outsiders could hardly be more obvious The main
Presbyterian strategy, however was to resist offering evaluations and to empathize with both brothers
None of the sermons talk about sin and theological terms exemplified in the omission of the foundation
Foundational doctrine of original sin we talked about sin we talked about being in Adams We talked about original sin and this is what the church should be doing, right?
Why do you come to church because you hear you're here to hear about a Savior saves you from your sin
Not who makes your life better? number ten why would American evangelicalism de -emphasize
God's transcendence Well, I I think the first part you said is absolutely right, you know the idea of God's perfection.
What does that do to us? Makes us feel bad about ourselves, right?
Which again, you know, what are the what are people looking for? They're looking to for something that works for them something that makes them feel better about themselves
Not that makes them feel worse about themselves so Yeah, it's really hard to make him your invisible friend if he's holy and you know, you're not he says liberals and revivalists both de -emphasize
God's transcendence and Tend to see God's Word as something that wells up within a person
Rather than as something that comes to a person from outside. In other words, what truth is subjective not objective
The key to salvation thus lies within the self The charge to the individual person is to listen and be receptive to this inner voice
Also since sin, you know, why do I hate that song and he walks with me and he talks with me
It's because of this this whole American idea that Faith is subjective.
Also since sin was regarded largely as error or ignorance
Which is in keeping with liberal beliefs in the essential goodness of humankind The view prevailed that behavioral change can come through come about through Education about ethical and moral concerns.
So he goes on to say conversion is basically self -fulfillment Conversion is up to us
Well, this is now getting into Osteen Conversion is up to us, but it's relatively easy to attain.
It only requires Emotional self -awareness openness and receptivity. I mean when
I When I read that when I start thinking about that, you know, what I think of is 12 -step meetings of which of course
All people are entirely capable You know anything that you can't change about yourself.
You just give up to your higher power Conversion will bring about bonding with God so he can be your invisible buddy
Meaningful relationships and triumph over one's daily problems This is what
Americans want out of their religion to feel better about themselves to feel closer with God And to improve their relationships and to have some kind of solution for their daily problems
Number 11, what is wrong with suggesting God wants to do something in your life?
Okay Okay, okay
Wes, okay you
I think you're getting close Brian I Think that's
That's not exactly how I would say it but yeah, that's exactly right Because here's the idea, you know
God wants to do something Won't you let him? Yeah, Dan Okay, but even then, you know if I say to somebody
God wants to save you What does that mean? God is yearning You know
Yeah Which is
So sad, you know if he's if he's counting on me, he's really in trouble
Please let me in Steve Number 11.
What is wrong with suggesting? Oh, I did that. Sorry He says among the typical concluding remarks are the following open yourself to the salvation that God wants to work in your life
Awful. So instead of introducing he goes on to say instead of introducing people to a majestic God who nevertheless
Condescended it condescended in mercy to save those who cannot save themselves these sermons
Even with the parable of the prodigal son as their text proclaim a message that can be summarized as moralistic therapeutic deism
Meaning God It just kind of sets things in motion then he stands back and he's a witness
He can't do anything without your permission awful. There were 12 in what ways does the word of faith message resemble
Gnosticism? Good good a number of theologians have pointed out the striking similarities between this prosperity message and ancient
Gnosticism Like the ancient heresy the word of faith message assumes a sharp dualism between spirit and matter promising mastery over one's external circumstances
By learning the secret principles of the invisible realm Although creation itself is corrupt
Referred to frequently as the natural you don't want to operate in the natural, right? You want to not operate in the supernatural
These teachers claim that the inner self is divine Here's Kenneth Copeland.
You don't have a God living in you. You are one you are part and parcel of God Yes, yes
Mm -hmm. Yeah, we should have lots of wealthy people. It's amazing though of all the billionaires in the
United States I don't hear about too many name it and claim it billionaires Right Because you're creating
Yeah Whoo Okay, number 13 true or false
God records every good thing you do and reward you for it You know,
I I don't have a problem with true as long as you have the right concept of it, right? He records every good thing you do.
Okay. Well that wouldn't take much time Yeah And He rewards you for it here's some breadcrumb dust, you know
Thank you Osteen counsels readers simply to reject guilt and condemnation
Yet it is hard to do that successfully when God's favor and blessing on my life Depend entirely on how well
I can put his commands to work This is a quote if you will simply obey his commands, he will change things in your favor
That's all simply obey his commands That's all you have to do. Just obey the
Word of God gravy tree This is a
Horton Everything depends on us, but it's easy Osteen seems to think that we are basically good people and God has a very easy way for us to save ourselves
Not from his judgment Nope, that's what we need now what we need salvation from but from our lack of success in life
With his help with God's help God is keeping a record of every good deed is a quote from Osteen a very good deed you've ever done
Then Horton interjects. He says as if this is good news And he continues in your time of need because of your generosity
God will move heaven and earth to make sure you are taken care of and you know,
I have to interject just for a moment because I've I've had people come up to me after a Sunday morning where You know,
I may have blasted this or that false teacher and say, you know pastor I don't know why you have to speak negatively of these men and women who are doing their best to You know proclaim the truth
Well, I mean part, you know, what what would you say to somebody who says that? Thus explaining why
Chuck is not a pastor Anthony Okay, do these false teachers, you know give the good news and they might you know, like oh she does or oh
He does Ben Yeah, it is it is
I mean, you know Titus Titus 1 9 right says you exhort elders are to exhort and send doctrine or refute those who contradict and you know, there's no shortage of examples of false teachers in the
Bible who get called out And why is that because God doesn't really like false teachers
So, I mean many will say to me on that day. Did we not do? thus and such in your name and cast out demons and What's Jesus going to say, you know what after thinking about it you're right
Yeah, yeah, I was really too harsh Oh Depart from me
I Mean they are right Have we not done this and have we not in that?
I mean I You know the whole resume Presentation. I mean, can you imagine?
Judgment Day Lord look at my resume No, thanks.
I'll pass Yeah Number 14 true or false.
It is troubling when other religions latch on to Christian teaching or I could have put alleged
Christian teaching Horton says about Osteon There is nothing in his message about the
Trinity or the resurrection of the dead and the age to come in fact there's little mention of Christ at all a point that even reporters have pressed in the interviews with Osteon or Even Pat Ebendroth has pressed with Osteon The televangelist shrugs off such concerns by saying that different people have different giftings and His mission is to help people live better Is there a problem with that if I say my message is my gifting is to help people live better I mean, you know,
I come for people in this life and then they can go to hell, you know I I mean if he said if he said it that way everybody be like dude, that's pretty harsh
But that's the reality Osteon frequently points to the fact that adherence of other religions embrace his message
Apparently without sensing any need for conversion as a sign of his success
You think about that? Oh, I've got Buddhists who use my book and I've got Mormons who use my book and I've got bro
Number 15 true or false God saves us based upon our personal relationship with Jesus.
How can you say that? That's the goal of Christianity is to have a personal relationship with Jesus, isn't it?
Oh Man I Mean that question I bet I bet if I went out and did a survey like, you know, just some
Sunday morning Just sitting outside of church Not this church, but a lot of truth even this church.
I probably get too many people would say. Oh, that's true That's definitely true God saves us based upon our personal relationship with Jesus Now is there truth in that?
Yes, yes He could reject this based on it. I mean, you know, let's put it this way if If God said, you know what if your relationship with Jesus is all that it should be.
I'll let you in in my kingdom How do you like your chances that's really bad news
Yeah, amen, I mean, can you imagine here are the basics of the
Reformation sola scriptura You know sola sola sola, then you get sola relation
Relationships, uh, you know my it's based on my relationship with Christ. No, it's based on Yeah grace, you know through faith
He says one could easily come away from this type of message concluding that we are not saved by Christ's objective work for us
But by our subjective personal relationship with Jesus through a series of works that we perform to secure his favor and blessing
Boy, that's rough Number 16 true or false. It is enough for salvation that one loves
God. How do you say that?
Yeah, it's false Osteen said that he's not sure what happens to people who reject Christ Larry King followed up with a question about Jews Muslims and other non -christians
They're wrong, aren't they? I mean Larry King is like trying to help him Larry King the guy who doesn't understand
Christianity. Anyway, it says hey, come on Let me help you out. Osteen replied.
Well, I don't know if they believe they're wrong or I don't well I don't know if they believe if I believe they're wrong.
I believe here's what the Bible teaches and From the Christian faith. This is what I believe
But I just think that only God will judge a person's heart Now, is that true?
Yes Only God can judge me. I Spent a lot of time in India with my father.
I don't know all about their religion, but I know they love God sir Yeah, I know
I live they love thousands of gods and I don't know I've seen their sincerity so I don't know
I know for me and what the Bible teaches. I want to have a relationship with Jesus I You know what
I would really enjoy is to you know be at his church sometime and like on a
Sunday morning before the service and Have them just look at me and go tell you what
Steve Why don't you tell me what to preach this morning and I'll preach it and I go, okay, how about 2nd
Corinthians 5 20 and 21, you know, how about you use those texts and Okay, I'll do that and he'd go out and go
What have I done? What have I agreed to? Larry King and a caller gave him a few more chances to answer the question, but it kept coming back to the heart
God's got to look at your hearts evidently The last judgment will be based not on God's standard of holiness and justice
But on the purity of our hearts, which is good news or bad news bad news extremely bad news number 17 true or false sin hobbles us
From having a happy successful life. I Really can't so I'm not going to I'm not going to try that's because the sin is life
Otherwise, he would have been happy and successful You know, there you go. Sunday morning
Sunday morning Joel Osteen's Church Jeremiah the biggest failure in the Bible What a loser
Don't be like Jeremiah, okay. All right. Sorry the the first The the first the first move in Osteen's trivialization of sin is to shift its focus
From an offense against God with eternal consequences to an offense against oneself
That keeps us from health wealth and happiness right now While his predecessors preached hellfire and brimstone to get people to stop smoking drinking and participating in Sexual immorality don't smoke.
Don't you don't go with girls who do right? Osteen's goal is to get people to follow his practical principles so that they can have their best life now
It's not heaven in the hereafter, but happiness here and now and it is still up to you to make it happen
By doing certain things you can determine whether God's favor and blessing will come your way
What is that? By doing certain things you can guarantee that God's favor.
What is that? Well, it's genie God or it's like if I could put it this way
Joe versus the volcano theology you ever seen that movie. Yeah Yeah, let's put some people in the volcano and appease the volcano
God, I mean this is this is equally stupid The second move in this trivialization of sin is to reduce it to actions negative behaviors that can easily be overcome by Instruction rather than a condition from which we are helpless to free ourselves
You know words come to mind like if the Sun sets you free you shall be Free indeed, you know, we are before salvation.
We are Or slaves to sin, right I mean there are all kinds of passages that would just Remind us again and again of what sin is and it's not just a hobble
His message assumes that deep down. We are all including publicans and prostitutes pretty good people who could just be a little bit better In the increasingly pervasive message of preachers like Osteen.
However sins become offenses I commit against myself They keep me from realizing my own expectations
It Is Excuse me therapeutic narcissism
I Have failed to live up to my potential to secure God's best for my life Or to follow the instructions that lead to the good life and can
I just say? You know in the abstract that is also true of Mormonism It's true of Mormonism.
What what this bit here that your sin basically? Keeps you from getting where you could go right and where you want to go and where you should go
Which is ultimately sinless perfection so that you could be God So the you know, while the ultimate aim it might be a little bit different.
The methodology is exactly the same Okay, number 18 true or false legalism often leads to antinomian ism
It is true. I mean it seems I I could give a multitude of examples of this but and And I would also say that the opposite is true right can antinomian ism lead to legalism
You know how many of you were leading? like me, you know a life of Reprobation and then you get saved and all of a sudden you're just like well
I have to sell things that aren't sinful, but they seem like They potentially might be sinful.
So, you know, we get rid of them and And you know ask the people who got my massive album collection so Let's see
So he says again we meet the swing pendulum recoiling from the decidedly unfun legalism of his youth because he brought up in fundamentalism
Osteen rebounds in the arms of antinomian ism No wonder he does not speak of sins much less the sinful condition that renders us all even believers sinners
Since there is apparently no divinely given set of rules that might identify such an offense, right?
If there's no standard of holiness Then there's no objective standard for sin He says the standard is not righteousness, but fun not holiness before God but happiness before oneself
You know if the ultimate Judgment against you is you're not enjoying life.
It's obviously because you're not doing the right things or you would be enjoying it Yeah, it is
Yeah, that's exactly right Okay, true or false
The essence of Christianity is living a life of integrity and selflessness But see this is another one.
I bet if I go outside churches. I bet I bet I get a lot of truths on This one. Yeah, it's as false as it gets
He says the main the main rule is to honor God with your life to live a life of integrity
Not be selfish, you know help others. This is Osteen by the way, but that really is the essence of the
Christian faith I mean, but if you talk to a lot of unbelievers, what would they say about Christianity?
They would say they would agree with that Right, you know, you guys just want to restrict all our fun
That's what Christianity is Yeah, I Probably did you know there were a lot of pages there
Go ahead go ahead preacher bring it And then the discussion you had with Larry King where he says, you know
Don't you have rules and he says we do have rules, but the main thing is to honor the essence of the
Christian faith But here's his point. Notice how Osteen's happy fun -filled Christian life without rules suddenly becomes the most demanding religion
Yeah, that was good Thank you for straightening me out. No, it's that no that that is true, right?
I mean if you say all you have to do is live a life of integrity and selflessness It's not easy to me, you know,
I well, I mean according According to my heart. I'm living well, that would be a lie, right?
So Yeah, Jeremiah 17 9 Just I think
I think what he would say is basically it's like how you present yourselves to others and you know
That kind of thing. So yeah Yeah Yeah No But you know on the other hand though Yeah, but but I think on the other hand he he does know better because it's been brought to his attention
And so, you know, I think there's a certain Hardening of heart that goes on over time where even when the truth comes to you, you're just like Well, that can't be true
Because you know what I'm doing works so Maybe is oh, yeah.
Well, he's you know stack of the Benjamins Yeah Yeah, I think that's the truth,
I mean I I just think he you know that the truth really bounces off of him I Mean I I'm pretty sure
Dave's right. I'm pretty sure he doesn't go home and go and then I said Yeah, I'm pretty sure that Okay number 20
What is wrong with omitting the teaching of the law of God, okay,
I like that Okay, the whole Council of God. Yep Horton says the proper preaching of the law
God's holiness righteousness and glory and justice will not create and us versus them
Self -righteousness right that I'm better than other people but will expose the best works done from the best motives of the best among us as filthy rags before God's searching judgment
And I like what he said there, you know, and he put it in italics bad law preaching level some of us, right?
Osteen's omission of the law levels none of us and biblical preaching of the law levels all of us
So when we when we really understand God's holiness and our imperfections, then we're all equal equally condemned
And we you know We're all equal yes
And we need to be constantly reminded to of our of our need for Christ. So good number 21
What should you think when someone tells you you possess the seeds of greatness? Well, what if he's your junior high track coach?
Steve you possess the seeds of greatness you can You run like the wind
Yeah, let's see. Here we go with Joel Osteen I'm hoping to help you look inside yourself and discover the priceless seeds of greatness that God has placed within you
In this book, I will reveal to you seven keys that you can use to unlock those seeds of greatness
Allowing them to burst forth in an abundantly blessed life Remember God has put everything you need to live a victorious put in you everything you need to live a victorious life
Now it is up to you to draw it out Well because I think
The way you describe it it kind of sounds like Wesleyan perfectionism, you know that you're you're going to arrive at a at perfection
You know, this is God you suffering to refine us. Yes. Yes, you know, but that's not that's not the same thing
So Horton goes on he says Imperatives commands that could be generated from a host of sources without any appeal to the
Bible. This is he's referring to Osteen's teaching to become a better you you must and I had to include these seven, you know steps here keep pressing forward
Be positive toward yourself develop better relationships form better habits
Embrace the place where you are Develop your inner life Stay passionate about life
Now are there trues in that? Yes Are there half trues in that?
Oh, yeah, you know, that's that's where he lives is in the gray area, right?
Yeah Yeah It's just it's the law.
It's less filling though. It's kind of like Bud Light. Sorry. Did I do that again? Yeah Yeah, you know what
I should I mean that's that's the real shame it here We have Horton who allegedly is some kind of scholar of Machen and he hasn't used stupendous even one time
Bogus, I revoke his his title Machen scholar Okay Mm -hmm
Number 22 true or false there are eternal laws of prosperity which inevitably lead to blessing
If you say true We're gonna have to talk in the parking lot Yeah Vulcan death grip instead of going to the shoulder goes right
Further He talks about Oste's book and he says the book is shot through with the lingo of the prosperity gospel we are to declare
God's blessing speak prosperity and prophesy health wealth and happiness into our lives and Then he says so in spite of the supernatural rhetoric at the end of the day.
It all sounds deistic God has set up everything with the laws of prosperity in place and now the ball is in our court
Following a well -worn path of victorious life teachers Osteen speaks of tapping into the eternal realm
This is just I mean Yeah, narcissism at best and you know
When you start talking about eternal realms, I just think okay, it's worse than Than that it's kind of demonic
Yeah Is he getting worse well,
I Think false teachers rarely get better, right? I mean, how do you stay popular?
How do you keep selling books and you know, and it's like I think the answer is certainly repackaging right, but the other answer is
You kind of have to get worse. You have to get a little more provocative So Well, I'd see
I would say the The human desire to fool ourselves into thinking we're okay
Looking for an answer apart from God. I mean, you know, it's like just kind of even a casual glance at the
Old Testament will tell you that People including the Israelites did what sought after all these false gods?
Why because they wanted some God that they could sort of live up to his standards or her standards, right?
Okay, number 23 what makes our faith effectual all right,
I guess I could go for that But let's see what let's see what the expert says
Osteen Osteen develops a chapter Or devotes a chapter to making your words work for you
Offering exam examples or or as my text here says exam pies
Examples of people who whose positive declarations Brought them health wealth and happiness in a chapter titled have confidence in yourself
I mean, it reminds me of an old
Neil Young song only I'm gonna alter it a little bit. I Believe in me
You know, it's really awful Osteen repeats his mantra again and again and misquoting the
Bible This is a quote from Osteen The scripture says our faith is made effectual when we acknowledge every good thing in us now, what verse is that?
Yes He says He's just think about this
Our faith is not effective is not effective when we acknowledge all our heart all our hurts and pains
It's not effective when we stay focused on our shortcomings or our weaknesses Our faith is most effective when we acknowledge the good things that are in us
Well, I mean it I think that might be in that Joseph Smith translation.
All right Brian Well, it's like, you know the
Faith healers, you know who say the only reason you're you know You're written your body's riddled with cancer. Your child is dying or whatever is because you don't have enough faith.
So Turn your faith up to 11.
That'd be a good sermon title All right number 24 what is wrong with believing in ourselves
Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna put that down we're bozos, you know That might be them that might be the message translation of Jeremiah 17 9
We're bozos Stephen Curtis Chapman.
All right In the only clear reference to trust in Christ that I came across in this book
Osteen still feels compelled to include us as the object of faith or I wouldn't say the object of faith but an object of faith, so I'll I'll change that a little bit because Here's the quote when we believe in God's Son Jesus Christ and believe in ourselves
So we have to believe in both That's when our faith comes alive. Well, I would say it's idolatry is what
I would say, right? You're trusting in Jesus and you're also trusting in yourself
That's when our faith comes alive when we believe we have what it takes we can focus on our possibilities
Yes But is it a spiritual transformation or isn't it
Trent trance? Yeah, but is it isn't it really just a transformation in our In our standing in this life, right?
I mean, isn't that what he's ultimately about? Yeah, I mean, here's it. Here's a good question and all these quotes and I dare say in almost anything
Does Osteen talk about heaven more or this life more and why?
Right, because the objective is to make this life like heaven and You know, there are multitude of problems without the biggest one is well, yeah,
I think he is a universalist but or essentially a universalist He's certainly not
You know, this is this is going to be really harsh so let's keep it in the tape He's not a
Christian See, how can you say that because I'm reading what he says and unless he believes something other than what he says and writes
He's not a Christian Number 25.
Why is it wrong to believe you can quote rise up and put a stop to sin?
rise up No one can no one is able right?
I mean just all the words I just here's here we go If I am diagnosed with grandma's diabetes am
I a doubter rather than a believer the Bible calls it an iniquity Osteen writes
Accordingly sin is not a condition of inherent corruption and guilt that generates sinful thoughts desires and actions
Rather it is a disease and destructive patterns of behavior passed down through one's bloodline
Quote, this is Osteen until somebody rises up and puts a stop to it Obviously that somebody is you not
Christ Somebody has to put an end to sin and that person is you
I? Mean that is very bad news. That might be the worst news
I've ever heard Gary Yes, but Osteen would say that's just negative thinking right you can't you have to think more highly of yourself than that Gary come on Cinch up your belt true or false
And in the final analysis Joel Osteen teaches works righteousness
True Horton make no mistake about it behind all the smiles. There's a thoroughgoing religion of works righteousness
Quote God's plan for each of our lives is that we continually rise to new levels? But how high we go in life and how much of God's favor and blessings we experience?
Will be directly related to how well we follow his directions. I have some bad news for you, son
God quote is waiting for your obedience so he can release more of his favor and blessings in your life
So let's all go home and watch Joel Osteen You know he fills an entire basketball arena several times
It's the biggest church in America How about this one number 27 is
God pleased when we obey his word is
God pleased when we obey his word? Is he pleased when we obey
Okay is that but is God pleased when we oh well, let's just think about that for a minute
What does it mean that God would be pleased we're probably gonna close here what okay well done good and faithful servant
Well, let me ask you this. Why is he pleased with us? Okay, so I think it's kind of a trick question in that sense
Yeah, I mean if if we if we say God is pleased when we obey his word So then what you know he's extra pleased
He's satisfied because of the death of death grail and resurrection of Christ right his perfect life
But he's more pleased when we obey now come on He says similarly as long as you're doing your best and desire to do what's right according to God's Word You can be assured
God is pleased with you certainly he wants you to improve But he knows that we all have our weaknesses.
We all have weaknesses Man, oh man is he bad or what? Joel Osteen False teacher of me we could do one more 28 true or false
Christians convey the good news by their actions 100 % false Christians convey the good news by their actions
No Osteen can say the word the world does not need to hear another sermon as much as it needs to see one and Then Horton says now we are the good news well
I mean that speaks volumes right if you say the world does not need another sermon well that would explain like his whole ministry
Big yeah, he's never preached a sermon yet. He hasn't done one, so you know what else is new
All right well we have to close father. Thank you for this morning. Thank you that these men are here
Ready to go father. I just pray that you'd Grant us not just discernment when it comes to false teachers like Joel Osteen, but Discernment in our own lives in our own homes help us to steer our families away from such things and even as we were talking about earlier to affirm what is right and true and to instructed those things
Knowing that there is a Drift in our culture father. Let us not permit a drift away from the truth in our own homes