Faith Alone DEBATE! Adam Carmichael vs Travis Thomas

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Hello and welcome to The Apologetic Dog. This channel is an apologetics ministry and the verse that I really wanna ground the ministry in is 1

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Timothy 6 .20 that talks about guarding the deposit that's been entrusted to us.

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So that would be the gospel deposit. And we do so by avoiding irreverent babble, pagan philosophy that kind of cloaks itself within the true gospel and God's word.

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And we also do that by worrying against false knowledge that really contradicts itself.

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And so I'm really excited to have all of you tuning in this evening and watching a very special episode.

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And so I just wanna tell you right before we get into it that I also serve as a pastor and elder at 12 .5

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Church that comes from a Bible verse, Romans 12 verse five that says, though we are individually one of another, we are one together in the body of Christ.

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And so at 12 .5 Church, we're located in Northeast Arkansas, specifically Jonesboro, Arkansas.

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So if you're in the area, we'd love for you to come and visit us and see what our fellowship is like.

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And if you would like to see any of our teaching series or preaching series, you can find us at 125church .com.

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That's the word 12, the number five church .com. And so before we get more into our special episode,

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I have a few announcements that I would love for y 'all to be aware of. Coming up just around the corner, we are having

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Dr. James White come to 12 .5 Church. He's gonna be talking on the very topic that we are gonna be getting into today, justification by faith alone.

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And so this will be on December 5th and it'll be at 6 p .m. And so if you're in the area and you'd love to join us for that, please reach out to me or Pastor Nathan Hargrave because we have limited seats.

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So we need to make sure that we have your name, we have it reserved for you and it's a free event. So Dr.

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White is coming to town again. He was here last year and talked about the Trinity and he talked about reformed theology.

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So can't wait for that. That is just around the corner. Another announcement I have is coming up in January, I believe it's

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January 24th, Trey Fisher and I, we were on the Cultish podcast.

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And so that episode will actually be launching in January 24th where we got to examine, talk about the

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Church of Christ. And so what is so neat about these two announcements is our special episode today has both of these concepts, justification by faith alone and the

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Church of Christ coming together in a battle royale.

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So we're actually having a debate this evening between Travis Thomas and Adam Carmichael.

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How are y 'all doing this evening? Doing well. Good, how are you doing? Good, well,

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I was just talking with Travis earlier. I'm so glad to have you live and in person this time rather than our typical communication where we do video reviews of one another, if I can put it like that.

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That's right. Yeah, well. Glad to be here with you guys. Yeah, we're gonna have a good fun evening.

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It's gonna be respectful. We really want to communicate clearly and respectfully for the sake of the audience, right?

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Both sides here, we are very passionate about what we believe. And so I want to give you a moment, beginning with Adam, you are the affirmative.

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If you would, please tell us a little bit about who you are, some more information about you, where people can contact you, things like that.

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Adam. Well, there ain't a whole lot to say. I'm a grateful believer in Jesus Christ.

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And like I said, I used to be a heathen, like big time. Drug addiction,

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I mean, everything that went with that lifestyle. And a little over five years ago, God rescued me. And that's how

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I can affirm the proposition of nine because I wasn't seeking after God. And he broke me down through scripture and I saw my sin for how he saw sin.

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So I think that's gonna be the categorically distinction in how we view things is how we see sin.

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But yeah, I'm happily married to Torrey Carmichael, my wife, that we are being continually sanctified through the word of God.

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And I was in this fallen world. We were drawn, well, I was drawn to 12th five through the word of God by Pastor Jeremiah's apologetics ministry.

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I kind of took fond of 1 Peter 3, 15, to revere Christ as Lord in your heart and be fenced for the hope that you have in you.

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And man, I just, I let stone to that particular verse and it drew me into watching debates hours and hours.

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I'm no professional, I'm not an expert. I just love the word of God. And we kind of went to church

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Christ for about three years. And as I'm digging in scripture and I'm letting all this saturate me through the

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Holy Spirit and all this stuff, it's not matching up. I mean, every time they baptize somebody, they would quote 1

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Peter 3, 21. I'm like, man, and then when talking to the pastor, the guy that was doing it, he said, no, well, you don't put your faith in baptism.

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It's all Christ, but you have to be baptized. So I mean, something just wasn't adding up.

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And so I come to 12th five through some struggles because of its location.

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And like I said, I've been there ever since being sanctified by what

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God says in his word and not by how we just wanna imply and add things onto it. So I'm just thankful for it.

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We're thankful to have you. You said some kind things towards me and I promise I didn't pay Adam to say that.

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So man, glad to have you on. And this is your first ever debate to participate in. So this is excited to have you on the

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Apologetic Dog. And this is the Apologetic Dog second debate. So I'm really excited to have both of y 'all.

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Now, Travis, who are you? Where can people find your ministry? Tell us about yourself. All right, well, of course, my name's

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Travis Thomas. I am not Church of Christ. That's kind of, you can't be

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Church of Christ. I'm a member of the Church of Christ. I'm a Christian based upon the obedience of the gospel, the grace of God, what he's revealed through his testimony of the written word.

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I had submitted to his will in obedience to what he has said and made me a Christian.

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I'm not nothing else. I'm not a Baptist, a Mormon, a Jehovah Witness, Church of Christ. I'm a

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Christian. I'm a member of the Church of Christ. I preach currently.

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I've only preached for two congregations in the Lord's Church. I preach currently at Montrose and Defeated Creek area in Smith County, Tennessee.

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I have a YouTube program called Truth with Proof. And right after this, I'm gonna go live on it approximately about eight, maybe 8 .30.

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So if some of you guys have questions that you didn't get to ask and we didn't get to answer or you feel like I didn't answer them the way that you feel like that I should have, you can join in the after show.

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I'm gonna review the debate tonight. I appreciate Jeremiah for allowing me to come on his broadcast.

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And Adam did ask me, he challenged me to debate this and he accepted the proposition of, are we justified by faith alone?

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And I accepted that. I would not have accepted the proposition are we justified by faith, but he didn't ask that.

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So I appreciate those guys for allowing me to come on and defend the truth of the gospel.

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Absolutely. Well, thank you for clarifying a lot of that and being a guest on here.

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Maybe we'll be able to do this again in the future, God willing. So I'm excited. I just wanna go over some ground rules with y 'all.

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The proposition, hopefully everybody can see clearly on the screen, scripture teaches justification by faith alone.

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So Adam is taking the affirmative. So he's actually going to be defending this proposition and Travis is gonna be taking the negative saying how he does not think that that is actually true and supported.

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And so as we go through, we're gonna have 15 minute opening statements where we're gonna get to take turns with that.

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And we'll even have, if you have PowerPoints or things like that, you can bring up, then we'll transition.

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Once both people have 15 minute openings, we're gonna have 10 minute rebuttals a piece, and then we'll have a brief five minute intermission.

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And then we'll get to the fun stuff where everybody's favorite part of debate is the cross examination.

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And so we're gonna do things kind of different there. We're gonna have it set up to where you can ask your question.

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If you're leading questions for the first 20 minutes, it'll be up to a minute. And then the interlocutor has up to two minutes response.

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And so you'll see, hopefully everybody will be able to see clearly what is going on there. And when you have a minute left in your time, you will hear this noise.

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Okay, so that's important just to kind of give you a heads up that your time is winding down. And if you have a little, if you go a little bit over your time, you know, just close out that thought and that is no problem whatsoever.

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And so with that being said, we're gonna start with Adam Carmichael.

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And so I just have one last thing to say. All right, so Travis will be in the top left corner.

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You get a little audience going on, Adam. So we don't see Travis right now.

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I see a computer screen, but hopefully he will come back when his time is ready. But Adam, when you are ready, just begin to speak and I will start your little timer there countdown for you.

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First, we're gonna look at Genesis account where we see the fall of mankind, specifically

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Adam, to show that there was actually a fall. We must say that everything that God created was good.

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So in Genesis 131, it is written, and God saw everything that he had made and behold, it was very good.

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In my opening, I'm going to let scripture dictate and navigate my thoughts to show that scripture speaks clearly on the matter of Adam being covenant head, the one responsible for all that is under him.

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In Genesis 3, one, now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the Lord God had made.

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He said, did God actually say, you shall not eat up any tree in the garden? And the woman said to the serpent, eat of the fruit of the tree in the trees in the garden.

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But God said, you shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that's in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, at least you die.

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But the serpent said, do not surely die, for God knows that when you eat of it, your eyes will be open and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.

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So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food and it was a delight to the eyes and that the tree was desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit and ate.

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And she also gave some to her husband who was with her and he ate. Then the eyes of both they knew they were naked.

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Notice that after Adam ate the fruit, the effects of sin spread.

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In verse seven, it says that after Adam ate, then their eyes were open, indicating Adam as the head of the house or its representative.

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Remember that God gave him all authority as we see that the second Adam, Jesus, also was given all authority when he fulfilled the law of God, then he was crucified and rose again on the third day.

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He did what the first Adam was unable to do. Just to be clear up to this point,

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I've only brought your attention to what scripture has already said. If there's something that I said that is not there in the text, you can address that in your rebuttal.

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Moving on to chapter three of Romans. What then? Are we any better?

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Are Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both

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Jews and Greeks are under sin. As it is written, none is righteous. No, not one.

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No one understands. No one seeks after God. All have turned aside. Together, they have become worthless.

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No one does good, not even one. Paul continues on about the sinfulness of mankind up to verse 18.

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For time's sake, I'm gonna summarize. Let's check my work to make sure that I'm held accountable for that.

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As we see in verse 10 through 12, Paul is making the point of the universality of sin across the board.

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Then in verses 13 and 14, Paul focuses on the sins of speech. Then in 15 through 17, he sets forth sins of violence against others.

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Then in verse 18, Paul returns to where he begins, that there's not even a basic regard for God. All has made no distinction up to this point that the all is specific in its understanding.

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Both Jews and Gentiles, everyone stands guilty before a holy God. We see in, this is a courtroom is starting to fill up.

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In verses 19 and 20, it says, now we know that whatever the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law.

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So that every mouth might be stopped or shut and the whole world may be held accountable to God.

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For by works of the law, no human being will be justified in his sight. Since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

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Unless we are not under the law, Travis is gonna have to tell you that sin is not that bad. Let me tell you folks, sin is a crime against a holy

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God. Scripture says that all have sin, but that argument was presented and concluded in chapter three, nine through 20.

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Before we continue the definition for a couple of words, so that you will see how I come up with my conclusion in the proposition of justification by faith, alone by itself only.

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Justified along with this other forms when using different sentence structures like just justify and justification.

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They mean to render a favorable verdict, to vindicate action done by God to restore the guilty into a right standing with him.

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Second one's faith is to entrust oneself to an entity in complete confidence, believe in, trust with the implication of total commitment to the one who is trusted.

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God and Christ are the objects of this type of faith. Then propitiation, it's an appeasement necessitated by sin, specifically an instrument for appeasing a sin offering.

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Now let's go to Romans 3, 21. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it.

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The righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe, for there is no distinction for all have seen the glory of God and are justified by his grace as a gift through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom

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God put forward as a propitiation by his blood to be received by faith.

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This was to show God's righteousness because in his divine forbearance, he had passed over former sins.

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It was to show his righteousness at the present time that he might be the just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

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Before we enter into the courtroom, you must be aware of the charges brought up against you, which

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Paul and other scriptures quoted up to this point demonstrated, all are guilty before a holy God.

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How can we appease God, being as Paul said, sinners? According to Romans 3, 21 through 26, the payment for the acquittal was paid in full by Christ as a propitiation.

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How that is received is stated clearly in Romans 3, 25, by faith.

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In Romans 3, 26, again, God alone is the just and the justifier. What does this even mean,

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God being the just and the justifier? Scripture teaches that the justifier is one in authority, a judge.

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We can see in Deuteronomy 25, if there is a dispute between men and they come into a court and the judges decide between them acquitting the innocent and condemning the guilty, unless you can demonstrate that that has changed in Scripture, we will apply it to this section.

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This is courtroom talk. Justification is a forensic action. We are not made righteous.

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It means that we are declared righteous. This is what God does for believers in justification. What a judge does in a court of law, he does not change the defendant by turning him or her into a new kind of person.

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Rather, he declares the defendant in the seat. Not against him or her.

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Justification is a legal declaration placed in the right standing by the judge declaring people innocent in his sight.

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Therefore, justification by faith can be the only logical and biblical way that a guilty man will ever be forgiven by God.

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Unless Travis is denying what Scripture has said, they all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

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Establish that no work by the law would justify a person. Now he points to Abraham, the patriarch in chapter four.

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What shall we say then was gained by Abraham, our forefather, according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about, but not before God.

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Well, what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness. Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift, but his due.

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And to the one who does not work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.

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Just as David also speaks of the blessing to the one who God counts righteousness apart from works, blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven and whose sins are cusses of men against whom the

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Lord will not count sin. Paul is using Abraham to show that if he was justified by works, it would be not before God.

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For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God or had faith in God and it, faith, was counted to him as righteousness.

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But to the one who works as anything to the finished work of Christ, his wages are not counted as grace.

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His efforts alone will be his reward. Paul goes on to say that the one that does not work, but believes or has faith in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.

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It's clear that the Scripture is telling us that God alone justifies the ungodly. But my opponent is gonna try to tell you that somehow you were never ungodly.

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Sin isn't that bad. You're a good person. The verdict is in.

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Apostle Paul renders it not guilty. You have been justified by faith.

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You now have peace with God. Through him, we have attained access by faith into grace which we stand.

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The love of God has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who he has given us.

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It goes on to say that while we were still weak at the right time, Christ died for the ungodly.

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In Scripture contrast, the two covenants heads in Romans 5, 12 through 21.

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I'm just gonna summarize for time's sake. Income through one man,

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Adam, and death through sin. Death spread to all men because all sin.

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Sin was in the world before the law, but sin is not counted where there is no law. How can this be?

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From Adam to Moses, death reigned with no law. How can this be possibly see that original sin is rejected?

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Romans 6, 23 says that the wages of sin is death. But now we look at the new covenant.

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The covenant head is Christ. Justification for all those who have faith and the one who justifies the ungodly.

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They will boast in Christ alone for their salvation. I have five points of conclusion that I wanna focus on.

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Again, this is one to show that everything God created was good. Then the fall of mankind happened after the man ate the fruit.

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This was to show that Adam was the covenant head over all creation. From the scriptures

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I started in my opening, it's plain to see the corruption spread after this.

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Denying this, the consistencies will lead your theology.

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Then, second point, then in Romans 3, 9 -20, Paul brought charges against the whole world.

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The adjective whole is put on there for a reason. It means everybody who will be held accountable to God because we know that all are under the law so that we will not be able to speak a word of defense.

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How can a guilty man acquit himself from the wrath of our holy God? Well, the text says how?

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Through faith in the one who justifies the ungodly. Third point, Paul presented the courtroom appearance.

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It spoke of the law and the prophets brought to the stand and bore witness that the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe, that all who believe are in contrast with the ones that all that sin.

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There's no distinction meaning both Jew and Gentile alike. No one escapes courtroom appearance that is clear from scripture.

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People are justified by his grace as a gift in the propitiation of the blood of Christ to be received by faith.

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Fourth point is in chapter four of Romans, scripture says Abraham was credited as righteous when he believed.

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If Abraham was justified by works, he would have a boast in himself. But no, if that was the case, his wages are not counted as a gift, but his dues.

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We see the one who has faith in him, Christ, who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.

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Fifth point, then we heard the verdict. We have been justified by faith.

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We have peace with God. And it goes on to contrast the two covenant heads.

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We are either in Adam or in Christ. We are in Christ by his finished work on the cross by faith.

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The reason I'm gonna stop here in chapter five of Romans in my opening is that we're talking about justification anywhere farther we would drift into sanctification.

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So I really wanna stay focused on the topic, justification, not sanctification.

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I yield my time. Bam. Good, timely manner.

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So I just wanna take a moment to tell the audience, start asking your questions in the chat.

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We're gonna have an audience Q &A at the end. I'm really looking forward to that. We'd love to get y 'all's interaction.

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And if you would, preface your question with question so I can search that word and then easily it all is organized.

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So audience, please get your questions down, send those in before the end. And now,

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Travis, you will have 15 minutes for your opening statement.

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And I believe that you have a PowerPoint, is that right? Yeah. Okay, so your

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PowerPoint is up. And as soon as you begin speaking, I will start your 15 minute timer. All right, my proposition is to denying faith alone.

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What Adam and what many other people have done, and they continue to fail, is to find the scriptures of faith alone.

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We're gonna look here. Most people, all right, that's what you're dealing with today is people are preconceived.

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They're preconceived of an opinion based off of no reason. And that's what we're talking about tonight.

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He did not find faith only, all right. And I'm going to deny that tonight very easily.

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Now, we may have people in the chat and they may ask, why don't we even debate this? Why don't we discuss it?

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Well, as you can see in Mark seven, seven through eight, Jesus talks to about the

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Pharisees and the Jews about traditions of men. Say, you only have two sources of authority.

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It's either from God or from man. And we have God's book. And if you can't see it and see it taught, it's not in there, then it came from man.

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So this doctrine of faith only being justified is from man. And second

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John one, nine, it says, whosoever transgressed, this is Adam and all the other ones who ever believed this, not talking about Adam in Genesis, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ has not

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God. All right. That's why this is very important to debate. Revelation 22, 18 through 19, for I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, if any man shall add unto these things, adding alone, all right,

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God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book. Any man shall take away from the words of this book of this prophecy,

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God shall take away his part. So this is serious. All right. Now he did end. How did

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I know he was going to end? Well, I know these guys. They find one verse, just like many denominational people, and they just cherry pick that verse.

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That's all they remember, one verse, one verse. All right. Romans 5, 1, therefore being justified by faith.

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Well, as I say it, if he would have said, do you want to deny we're justified by faith?

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I wouldn't have accepted that proposition. All right. But he says alone, and he only said it a couple of times.

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We'll review on truth with proof that he said that we're justified by faith alone.

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That is what he's promoting. Again, therefore being justified by faith alone.

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That's what he's adding to the word of God. All right. So faith alone, a fallacy of faith alone, faulty reasoning or unsound argument.

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Now he made a lot of bad arguments about what I teach, and man, he apparently never heard me preach about sin, and I play with sin, and I know the congregation where I preach at know that I don't play around with sin.

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But one thing that I don't think he quite understands, Colossians 2, 14 says the law was nailed to the cross.

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All right. Ephesians 2, 15 talks about it's abolished. Hebrews 9, 16 and 17 says that we're not under the old covenant.

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All right. We're under a new covenant. So first off, all the verses he's saying that we're not going to be justified by the law.

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I agree with that. I don't teach we're under the law of Moses. Okay.

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But we are, as Romans says, we're under the law of faith. All right. So we're going to allow the word of God to define faith alone.

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We're going to have to use the Bible, and we're going to have to allow God. All right. So this is it.

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All right. This is it. Maybe Adam hadn't seen this before. Let God speak. Okay. This is what I'm saying by this.

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Let me define faith alone. Faith alone is when you hear the word of God, you repent of your sins.

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You believe Jesus is the Christ. He raised from the dead. He died on the cross. I'm willing to confess

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He is Lord. I'm willing to be baptized. See, we're justified by faith alone. Now you would look at me and be like, what?

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That's the way you define faith alone? Well, let's just allow God to define faith alone. All right.

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He says in James 2 .17, even so faith, if it has not works, it's dead being alone.

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That's what the inspired writer James says out of the word of God. It is a dead faith.

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All right. So Adam thinks that saving faith, faith alone is a dead faith.

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He's gonna have to. Now he can put all kinds of man's, it's trusting and believing, but God says faith alone is a dead faith.

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All right, guys. That's what the Bible says. And that's it. As you can see, that's why I like the

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PowerPoint because I want people to see what the Bible says, not my opinion or what

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I think. Okay. When man gets to explain what faith alone is, this is it. You can see.

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In Romans 5 .1, therefore having been justified by faith. Now the Calvinist and Baptist and other ones, they're all basically the same.

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Sad. I love them. I love them enough to try to teach them, but they got to lay aside their man -made tradition.

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See, they're like the Jews. This is what they just brainwashed in their minds. It says, therefore, having been justified by faith alone, and God explains it.

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Look at the very bottom. Therefore being justified by a dead faith, we have peace with God through our

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Lord Jesus Christ. That is what Adam is promoting. He's promoting, as God says, faith alone is a dead faith.

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And I'm pretty sure Paul wasn't going around in Romans 5 .1 saying we're justified by a dead faith. But see,

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Adam and all the Calvinists say faith alone. God defines faith alone. It's a dead faith.

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And he really lacks understanding the context of Romans, what Paul is dealing with,

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Judaizer teachers, and they're trying to push circumcision and binding the law of Moses.

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And I have that too on my YouTube if you want to go check that out. So Calvinists are actually trying to earn salvation.

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They'll try to turn around and use these bad arguments because I'm going to obey God. I'm going to obey what he says to do to be saved.

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And he talks about the Holy Spirit in Acts 5 .32. I remember. And we'll review him later.

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He says, and we are a witness to these things. So is the Holy Ghost whom God has given to those who obey him.

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And Adam would be trying to promote that he somehow has the Holy Ghost, Holy Spirit.

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So they're trying to earn salvation. Remember that they're trying to earn it. How are they trying to earn it? They're coming up with their own doctrine.

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See, when you do what the Bible says, you're not trying to earn it. Luke 17 .10, you're just doing what you're told.

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You're just a servant. Well, they do believe they're depraved. And if you see, get on my

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YouTube and look. I got a playlist called Calvinist Stop Teaching. You're going to see these guys contradict themselves.

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And the questions, we're going to ask questions like, can even anyone even in the chat actually learn the truth from this? Or do you have to have some kind of operation directly

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God changing your nature? We got Adam that's depraved. We got Jeremiah that's depraved.

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And you're going to actually listen to these depraved men telling you that we're saved by faith alone.

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If you went to a doctor and a doctor says, take three pills, and you went to another doctor, said, oh, you just take one.

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Well, which one are you going to listen to? You're going to take it all. And that's what I'm trying to convince you guys, that you must do all of God's word, obey his will.

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Now look here, he failed. He failed to find the verse, one verse.

32:32

You would think God, if he was going to say we're justified by faith alone, he would have had enough foreknowledge to know to put that in his

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Bible when these inspired writers wrote it down. From Genesis to the book of Revelation, you don't find faith alone.

32:48

And I don't know how these guys think obedience is not required to be saved. When it very first starts out in Genesis chapter three with Adam, why did he fall?

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Because he disobeyed, see, that's why. All right, you have to be faithful and obey what

33:06

God says. And as you can see there, if any man speak, let him speak from the oracles of God.

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I love Adam. I wish he would repent and actually return to the Lord's church.

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He's going to have to lay aside his pride. I don't know what all happened, all right? He began to tell that in his introduction, but he didn't find one verse.

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You're not going to find the verse, all right? In a minute, I might repent of that. I might find the verse for you if you know what

33:32

I'm saying. All right, so faith. We have the definition or pistis, persuasion.

33:38

A strong persuasion. We see the definition. By extension, the system of religious, the gospel truth, depending on where it is in the

33:48

Bible, all right? It could just mean like Christianity, the system as you see, or trusting.

33:54

Now, these guys will say, you got to trust, trust, trust. And here's what I'm getting at. They'll say you have to believe that Jesus died.

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He rose from the dead and He ascended to heaven and He died on the cross for your sins and you put your trust and faith in what

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He did. Well, friends, I'm telling you to put your trust and faith in what He said to do, all right?

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Yeah, you got to believe those things. See, they say a little bit, sounds good. They're like a car salesman, but you've got to do what the

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Lord says. Why do you call me Lord, Lord, and not do the things which I say? Luke 6, and we'll get to Luke 6 later on in presentation.

34:38

All right, let's see here. What is the opposite of believing, all right? In John 3, verse 36, it says, he that believeth on the

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Son hath eternal life, but he that obeyeth not, see the contrast?

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The biblical way of understanding faith is by obeying by faith, okay?

34:58

By obedience. But he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see his life.

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These guys say, no, you don't have to obey God. When He says, when He attaches a baptism on a salvation passage like Mark 16, 16, he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, all right?

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You have to obey. See, I trust Jesus so much, Adam, that when He says, he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved,

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I trust Him. I'm gonna obey that, and I believe other people who are baptized for the remission of sins.

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Like, those people are saved. Now, who are you, or who is anyone else to come along and say, you know what?

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I think it says, he that believeth is saved and will be baptized later. No, no, see, you don't believe

35:48

Jesus. You're disobedient. Now, here's where they fail,

35:54

Calvinists do. They remove all works. See, I've had them call in my show, and they even think that confessing with your mouth is a work.

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You know, I wonder if even these Calvinists, kind of like most people in society who just wanna live off the government and not work, because they think it's so bad.

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Everything you do is just work, work, work, work, work. All right, so one cannot remove all works when faith is work.

36:17

Notice there, in John chapter six, 26, I mean, John chapter six, verse 28 and 29, it says, then they said unto him, what must we do, the

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Jews? They're gonna do this, all right? To be doing, there's that dirty word, if you're a

36:35

Calvinist, the works of God. Jesus answered them, this is the work of God that you believe, all right?

36:44

Now, the Calvinists come along like Pinocchio and says, you're dead. Now, somehow, God has gotta work on you directly.

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We're not talking about through the gospel. See, they actually deny the power of the gospel. See, I believe God works on us through the spirit, through the gospel, all right?

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That's how the gospel came, by the spirit, by the Holy Spirit. So again, he removes all works, so he actually denies this scripture again.

37:09

See, that's where they go wrong, because they're so preconceived. Again, we're removing the law of Moses.

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When these guys talk about this like, we're not justified by the law, we're not justified by the law, the context is the law of Moses.

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See, I actually agree with that, but what they're doing is building a straw man thinking that repentance, confessing, and baptism, confessing the

37:32

Lord, is somehow introduced in the law of Moses. It's not the law of Moses.

37:40

Baptism in Jesus' name is not the law of Moses. See, it's a straw man faulty argument.

37:45

To me, it's kind of dishonest. I don't believe that. Why would you keep arguing that I'm trying to tell people to keep the law, and we're not under the law?

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It's been nailed to the cross. Works of merit, we can't work our way to heaven, all right?

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We can't do enough good works. When you start dealing with these Calvinists, when you start saying, how do you even know you're one of the chosen?

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Well, it's by my fruit. I can only know what I do. Sounds like they're trying to work their way to heaven.

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But works of obedience, what God has required, you must do those things.

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Even faith, again, is a work. You see it right there. Faith is a work. It's a work of the gospel.

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It's something we must do. All right, look here. I got a minute and 30. Did Jesus see a dead faith?

38:32

Notice this in Luke 5, 17 through 20. It says, on one of those days when we were teaching, the

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Pharisees, teachers of the law, were sitting there who came from every village of Galilee and Judah and from Jerusalem.

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And the power of the Lord was with him to heal. And behold, some men were bringing on a bed a man who was paralyzed.

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And they that were seeking to bring him in and lay him before Jesus, but finding no way to bring him in because of the crowd, they went on the roof and let him down with his bed through the tiles into the mist before Jesus.

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And when he saw their faith, no, it was faith alone. They had a dead faith.

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No, he saw what they were doing. And Jesus says, it's their faith. See, baptism, confessing is an act of faith.

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Jesus saw what they were doing. And he said, I see their faith. So in one way, how

39:28

I'm denying all of this is he didn't present the proposition. Faith alone. Let's find it. We're going to get later into looking about Paul in Romans chapter five.

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And do you think Paul thinks we're justified by a dead faith or a faith which worketh by love?

39:44

Galatians 5, 6. So appreciate you guys and get ready for his 10 minutes.

39:53

Yes, sir. Well, I just want to say those were stellar opening statements.

40:00

Now, Travis, I think you maybe lagged out a little bit. So you might've missed a couple minutes of his opening, but I think you caught the gist of his opening statement.

40:10

So I think we're good to go. We're going to now transition to our rebuttal time. So Adam, since you're the affirmative, you have 10 minutes for your rebuttal and I will start it when you begin speaking.

40:28

Oh, I had you muted. Can you hear me now? Oh yeah,

40:33

I can hear you. Sorry, I had to mute you. So anyway, you're good to go.

40:40

All right. Like I said, man, I don't know where to even start. Like I said, Travis just threw up a whole lot of stuff and no offense towards you,

40:51

Travis, but I mean, I don't see how you keep up with all this mess that you presented to me and I'm supposed to dig through it.

40:57

So I'll give it a try. I'm not even going to touch on Mark because like I said, we're talking about a different Gagi, which is several different methodologies in teaching.

41:09

So I do want to touch on 2 John 1 .9. I mean, you do know that 2

41:17

John is all those epistles are written to believers, right? Or would you think that that's, well, it's not question time, but just think on that.

41:26

I see that as a repetitive thing that you don't see the distinction in who books are written to and who they're written for.

41:36

Like all of scripture is, except for the book of John, of course, we see

41:42

John could be written to unbelievers because all these things are written so that you may believe, but like the rest of the books are focused on believers and they're kind of given a backdraft when they were sinners.

41:56

So I just really want to go to that John 6 passage that you brought up because we're going to start out.

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Verse 25, John 6, 25 says, when they found him on the other side of the sea, they said to him, rabbi, when did we come here?

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Jesus answered and said, truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaf.

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Do not work for the food that perishes. Now, honing on that, do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the son of man will give you.

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The son of man is Jesus Christ, he's going to give you. For on him, God the father has set his seal.

42:42

Then they say to him, what must we do to do the work? So God is like, come on, really?

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I just told y 'all, don't work for the food that perishes. I'm going to give you that.

42:56

So this is the work of God, that you believe in him. So Jesus went from the temporal, physical thing, working, doing things.

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He says, come on, guys, we're talking about the spiritual things of God, which is belief. And it says, is the work of not

43:15

God is what faith is. So we see that our faith is founded from God. And if I remember correctly, you said something about Colossians 2 .14.

43:25

So I'm going to bring it up because like I said, that's in my other questions.

43:31

Colossians 2 .14 is not talking about nailing the law to the cross, because that's the dumbest thing

43:36

I've ever heard, is Christ nailing the law to the cross.

43:43

If we look at, was it Matthew six, the Lord's prayer, forgive us our trespasses.

43:50

And then in Luke 11, it says, forgive us our sin. So we're seeing scripture tying sin with trespasses.

43:58

It's a declaration of sin that Christ is nailing to the cross. It's our sin debt.

44:05

Well, who's the are there? We're going to have to, in the question and answer time, I'm going to really hound you on that, because you're apparently thinking, and that's just the most absurd thing

44:17

I've ever heard in my life, that Christ nailed the law to the cross. So he didn't go to the cross to die for the law.

44:25

He fulfilled the law. And I was kind of hoping that you would bring up that Jesus' baptism, because that's one of the teachings that is taught, that we get baptized because Christ got baptized.

44:39

So, I mean, that would almost make sense, but then we would miss out on the part, forgive me,

44:45

I'm trying to find my notes here on the fly. I guess I found them my other time, that when he was baptized, it was to become high priest when he was getting cleansed to that ceremonial act to become the high priest.

45:03

The father from heaven, the witness, as we see in Numbers, I believe five, cries out and said, this is my son to whom oil please.

45:11

And the Holy Spirit coming down, which we know symbolically would represent oil, the priest, high priest is anointed with oil.

45:19

So he's becoming our great high priest so that he can live to make intercession for those whom he paid the price for on the cross.

45:28

Man, I just still blows my mind you said something about the law on the cross.

45:34

Now we're gonna look to James 2. And I mean, we're gonna play on words.

45:40

You said, God says faith alone is dead. I mean, it doesn't say God said faith alone is dead.

45:46

I mean, that's something you're actually adding to there, the word of God, to there.

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I'm gonna pull up real quickly. James, pull it up.

46:04

All right. It says, so also by faith itself, it does not have works.

46:12

Amen. That's what all Christians should say. I'm not even gonna say

46:18

Calvinist yet because that's a different topic. Yes, I'm a Calvinist because that's founded on cross. We point everything back to cross.

46:25

So yeah, but James here is talking about, okay, some will say that you have faith and I have works.

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Show me your faith apart from your works and I will show you my faith. You get that?

46:37

I will show you my faith by my works. That's Calvinist doctrine right there. We teach that faith produces good works.

46:44

Ephesians 2, eight through 10 is talking about, for you have been saved by grace through faith.

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And this is not of yourself, not of works, least any man should boast. You were created,

46:56

God's handiwork created in cross to do the good works that cross had prepared in advance for you to walk in.

47:04

So I really want Travis to kind of hone in on Ephesians there too, because if we talk about Ephesians one, we are looking at the triune council of God.

47:15

And let me slow down here for a second. I'm getting really excited. I love the word of God and just blows my mind.

47:22

Somebody wants to add a cross. It says in verse three, blesses the God and father of our

47:28

Lord Jesus Christ who has blessed us in cross with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world.

47:38

Before I proceed further, they chose us. The other is Hamas or Ego. It's a first person pronoun.

47:46

He chose people in Christ. That's God the father choosing people and electing a people in his son.

47:55

Now I'll jump down to what is it, verse seven. In him, we have redemption through his blood. That's Christ for the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us in all wisdom and insight, making known to us those he died for the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he had set forth in cross.

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I'm going to jump down to verse 13 because this is going to blow your mind here. In him, you were also, when you heard the word of truth, get that?

48:26

Heard the word of truth. You're going to tie that to Romans 10 because when we heard, we had faith. So we believe when you hear the word of God, that's the means by which

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God calls the elect out of the dark world into his wonderful light, which is Christ Jesus.

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So it says in him, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation and believe him, we're sealed with the promised

48:49

Holy Spirit, who is a guarantor of your inheritance until we acquire possession of it to the praise of his glory.

48:57

I mean, it don't get mad. I mean, when we look at didactic teachings in the epistles, and I think that's a big problem.

49:08

Travis runs to pedagogy like the gospels and books like that.

49:16

Sure, they have great teachings or they didn't say nothing about acts.

49:22

We're looking at a narratable story here and you're trying to develop doctrinal statements that I mean, shift from acts two to talking to the

49:33

Jews about just telling them that after they were cut through the heart, repent and be baptized. For what?

49:40

Well, because Christ whom you crucified, that's getting back to authority.

49:45

So I just wanna thank Travis for his time here and thank you for all this time you've given me.

49:53

Forgive me if I kind of got it wrecked. I'm pretty excited here. Yeah, you were good to go.

50:00

So thank you so much for that rebuttal. Adam, you got a little fiery in there and I like that.

50:06

We're passionate and I expect the same from Travis. Let's see, so you now have 10 minutes,

50:15

Travis, to give your rebuttal and when you start speaking, I'll start your time. I believe you are still muted, sir.

50:27

I'm gonna share a PowerPoint if you could share that and then I'm gonna share the Bible if you would.

50:33

Okay, let's see if we can make that happen. We do stuff on the fly here at the

50:39

Apologetic Dog. So is this the right? Yeah, I just got a couple of slides and then I'm gonna bring my Bible up and I think

50:45

I had 10 minutes. You got me at 15. Yes, let me change that time real fast. All right, you're good to go.

50:51

I'll take 15, all right. All right, so to finish up my little PowerPoint slide here to deny faith only, which you can just go to James and read that if you have a

51:02

Bible at home, I'd hope you guys have a Bible. Seems like some of you guys don't read it though. All right, here's the question.

51:09

Was it faith alone again or was it faith which worked? Now notice this in Luke chapter 8, 43.

51:16

It says, there was a woman who had a discharge of blood for 12 years and though she had spent all her living on the positions, she could not be healed by anyone.

51:25

She came behind him and she did what? She did a work. Say again, she did something. She touched the fringe of the garment and immediately her discharge of blood ceased.

51:33

And Jesus said, who is it that touched me? She did a work. Did she earn it? Did she earn it? Or I mean, did she deserve it?

51:40

Did she merit it? See, when you repent, confess, and be baptized initially to become a

51:45

Christian, do we say, oh, we earned that. You know, we worked ourself to death for obeying what

51:52

God has gave us through his testimony, the Bible. And notice it says, when we all denied it,

51:58

Peter said, master, the crowds surround you and are pressing on you. And just for a time, because I want to answer some of his arguments, it says, and he said to her, daughter, your faith has made you well.

52:09

Well, again, faith in action, her faith in action. Baptism is an act of faith. All right.

52:16

Again, right here, Galatians 3, 26, 27, for you are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

52:23

See, now I know people who are denominations, they just read this because they cherry pick, see.

52:30

We have some people in the chat, they just want to cherry pick Romans 5, 1. You got to take the sum of God's word, the entirety.

52:39

And then he introduces how. See, this is present tense, Adam, for you are the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus, present tense.

52:49

And then he introduces how. For, for, which is gar, as many of you have been baptized into Christ, you put on Christ.

53:00

You know, Adam spent a lot of times in Ephesians talking about in Christ, in Christ, and he overlooks how to get into Christ.

53:09

When I debated Trey and debated Desmond, debated, I don't know, several debates, none of those guys can tell you how to get into Christ.

53:16

They actually could, but see, they're so preconceived and they're so stubborn because they don't want to say you're baptized into Christ, you put on Christ, but you see that clear as day right there.

53:26

So now I want to bring up the scriptures Bible here and share that real quick.

53:34

If Jeremiah would bring that in when I get that up here, because we want you guys to get into the

53:42

Bible. At least, at least I do. You know, I want you to get into the Bible. Now I do appreciate Adam for doing this debate.

53:49

He just wanted to challenge me and I wouldn't go into it first. I have a live program so you can call in and we can talk and study or you can just call me afterwards.

53:57

Like a lot of these people in the chat room, these people on social media, they're not really wanting to know.

54:04

They just get on there and they're just keyboard warriors, but you can call me after the show if you're sincere and you want to discuss this, we can do it that way.

54:15

So again, he elaborated a little bit on John six. He actually said it is a work of God. See their proposition just failed right there because they did not all works.

54:24

So it is a work of God believing, meaning we do it, God tells us to do it, the Jews ask, all right.

54:30

And now we're going to look here at Colossians. He did say, and I don't hold nothing personal.

54:36

He said it was the dumbest thing he ever heard. Well, there's a lot of people who think things are dumb when they don't study and they don't know and they've been taught by false teachers to believe things that are, they just say it and they don't challenge them.

54:48

They don't ask these pastors these questions. Look here, having wiped out the handwriting of the requirements that was against us, that was contrary to us and taking it out of the way and nailing it to the cross, all right.

55:00

I said, that's the old law. Hebrews 9, 16, 17, Ephesians 2, 15.

55:07

These guys talk about, they think they're under the law or they actually stoning people on the Sabbath. They're so confused.

55:14

Most of these pastors don't even understand that Gentiles were never even under the law of Moses.

55:20

Us three right here on the screen, we're probably Gentiles. Even if Jeremiah says

55:25

I'm a Jew because he's got a beard like a Jew, he can't prove it. The records were destroyed. There's no proof for it.

55:32

I see him laughing a little bit. You gotta have a little fun. Can't be so uptight that we're thinking we hate one another.

55:37

I hate their false doctrine though. But look here, he says, so let no one judge you in food or drink in regarding to a festival or a new moon, look at this, or Sabbath.

55:48

And you guys say context, context, context. Look here. The context is what?

55:54

The law. The law right here. A shadow of things to come. He nailed, he's saying he wiped out sin.

56:01

So sin is a shadow of things to come. You see that? A shadow of things to come. That's talking about the law of Moses, Adam.

56:09

That's not talking about the sins, which they were. I mean, the sins, well,

56:16

Jesus died on the cross to remove sins. He made it possible for that, for people who comply with his terms.

56:25

So that is not what he said. He's just confused on Colossians 2 .14.

56:31

The context is referring to the law of Moses. And that's why I can show you. And Ephesians 2 .15

56:39

is another parallel passage with that. Having abolished and expressed the imagery, that is the law, the commandments.

56:47

See that? The old law. That goes right along with Colossians 2 .14. So maybe you guys, if you want to be honest, maybe you learned something a little bit.

56:54

And I'm not saying I know it all. I learned something quite often. So he mentioned, and we're going to play him in the review after this, that in Acts chapter two, they were told to repent and be baptized.

57:10

Now, I appreciate Andrew doing it, but he's really trying to really, should be his second speech.

57:16

He should have went back into trying to promote faith only. See, I think he gave up on that after he discovered that Paul says we're justified by faith.

57:24

And then Paul in Galatians 5 .6 says we're justified, or it's a faith which worketh by love.

57:30

And then James says it's a faith alone is a dead faith. So that's good.

57:37

That's good. I hope that he would give up on saying faith alone. And when he listens to Jeremiah at church, so you got to hear this, he's going to preach again, or Nathan will preach

57:46

Sunday. And when they say we're saved by faith alone, I want you to remember, not according to James, you love

57:53

James more and God more than these teachers. Now, when they get up there and start saying faith, you're going to think, okay, well, he's getting a little bit closer to the

58:01

Bible. See, see how that works. But he said something about, right here, as you can see on the screen, repent,

58:09

God, Peter said, repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. And then he said, we're going to play him afterwards.

58:16

He said for looking back to what Christ died on, or what he did. We'll play him.

58:22

I don't want to misquote him. But anyways, he didn't say what the Bible said. It said for the remission of sins.

58:30

Now he got that because I've listened to Jeremiah preach on this on Acts chapter two. And he totally sidetracked the whole thing about it's for the remission of sins in Acts chapter two.

58:43

Very sad with that. And he brought up predestination, basically.

58:50

I don't know if he quite understands predestination. As people always say, and I seen someone in the chat said, he always talks about Calvinist.

59:01

Well, I mean, Adam said he is a Calvinist. Now, when we get to that,

59:07

I mean, I'm a Christian. Who goes around saying, I'm a Calvinist. I'm a Paula. I mean,

59:14

I just don't get you guys. And he really isn't a Calvinist because I got what

59:20

John Calvin said about baptism. So he says, where is it right here?

59:29

Right here, let's see. Talking about division. Now, I plead with you, brethren, by the name of the

59:35

Lord Jesus Christ, that you speak the same thing. Contentions, here we go.

59:41

This tackled his argument right there. Now I say this, each of you, I am a Paul or I am a

59:47

Paulist or I am a Cephas or I am of John Calvin. See, they don't understand.

59:53

How about I am of Christ? I'm a Christian and I am of Christ. And Ephesians one,

59:59

I would love you guys to come on the after show and discuss Ephesians one with me.

01:00:05

But right here, Ephesians one, three, all spiritual blessings are where?

01:00:11

In Christ. All right, how do you get into Christ? Well, Galatians three, 26, 27,

01:00:17

Romans chapter six, verse three and four. Right here, just as he has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world that we should be what?

01:00:27

Holy and without blame, having predestined us to the adoption of sons. By who?

01:00:32

By Jesus Christ himself. According to what? The good pleasure of his will. Meaning you have to obey his will.

01:00:38

You have to do his will. Right here, through the redemption. And I mean the blood.

01:00:43

He read a lot of things, I agree with it. But the predestination of the individual without regardless of what you do, that's false doctrine.

01:00:53

I mean, we're getting to that with the question and answers. Hey, we have survived up to this point.

01:01:04

So hey, both of y 'all did a fantastic job being respectful with the time, engaging with a lot of the arguments.

01:01:10

And I saw some fireworks going on there. So I appreciate that. We're now going to take a brief intermission.

01:01:17

So if y 'all gentlemen need to use the restroom, get something to drink, y 'all do that. I'm gonna spend about five minutes just talking about some announcements that we have coming up here at 12 .5

01:01:29

Church. We're having Dr. James White. Let me see if I can pull this up again for everybody.

01:01:36

Coming to 12 .5 Church. So Dr. James White, he is a traveling apologist.

01:01:43

He is a pastor elder at Apologia Church in Arizona. And he has written many books that I have profited a ton from.

01:01:52

And he's coming to teach about justification by faith alone. So this debate is a little bit of a primer for that, getting ready for Dr.

01:01:59

White to come in town. And this really is a very crucial topic that Adam and Travis are debating, because this is really a gospel issue.

01:02:10

Are we justified before God by faith alone or faith plus works is really how historically the debate has been had.

01:02:18

And so it's worth listening to one another in a organized fashion to be able to hear the arguments from both sides.

01:02:26

So I just would encourage people to take notes and listen to both sides. And if you are interested in coming to listen to Dr.

01:02:34

White at 12 .5 Church, it'll be on December 5th at 6 p .m. And we have a limited number of seats.

01:02:41

So please reach out to me or Pastor Nathan Hargrave. You can find, you can message me on Facebook.

01:02:47

You can have my email contact and we'll reserve seats for you. But they're filling up fast and we're getting towards being full there.

01:02:55

And so my other announcement that I mentioned at the beginning is you have a cultish here where the

01:03:03

Fishbone and myself, Trey Fisher, we were on cultish and we were actually examining the

01:03:09

Church of Christ. So for Trey, this is actually a follow -up part two. And I was able to be a part this second time and talk about these things.

01:03:20

And so what makes this debate even better is Travis would identify as a member of the

01:03:28

Church of Christ. I wanna be super charitable with him. And just the differences that his perspective has with someone's perspective like myself or Trey Fisher or Adam Carmichael.

01:03:39

And so that's gonna launch, I believe, January the 24th. So please be looking for that.

01:03:47

And man, my timer did not keep, so that's okay. I just wanna give these guys a break.

01:03:55

And so, so far, the debate's been really good. I wanna remind our audience, please keep sending in questions.

01:04:01

We won't have a super long Q &A at the end if we don't have any questions, but we do have some really good ones so far.

01:04:08

And so let me check with our interlocutors. All right, let's see,

01:04:15

I might've muted y 'all. Did y 'all get something to drink? Oh yeah.

01:04:21

Yeah, I had something. Well, before we dive in to the cross -ex, how are y 'all feeling so far? Oh yeah,

01:04:29

I'm good. Okay, good, good. The PowerPoint's going through really well,

01:04:35

Travis, so I'm glad that we were able to integrate that. But we are now transitioning to the cross -examination.

01:04:44

Let me explain a little bit what's going on. So affirmative's gonna go first, and Adam will have a total of 20 minutes to lead and ask questions.

01:04:53

When he asks a question, he has up to one minute to ask a question.

01:04:59

So he can actually frame this question however he wants. If he wants to say, well, you know, I think the point that you brought up early in the debate,

01:05:07

I think it was like this, I think there was some misrepresentations here, he has up to a minute to qualify what he says.

01:05:13

I wanna encourage people, yes, no questions are good, but sometimes there's misformulated questions.

01:05:20

So it's not up for me to say, hey, I think that question is totally off base to the relevance of the proposition, because the person responding has up to two minutes to kind of qualify their answer in light of what was said.

01:05:34

So I have to begin with, because this is everyone's favorite part of a debate.

01:05:45

And so, go ahead, go ahead, you can question, go ahead. Can I share a

01:05:51

PowerPoint on the question? I think that'd be really difficult to keep up with the time.

01:05:57

So I don't think I can share the PowerPoint unless you can somehow bring it up on your side of the screen, that the camera that's looking at you.

01:06:05

So we can try some of that on the fly, but for the most part, it'll just be these two camera angles.

01:06:13

So you think you're, yeah. So yeah, if you wanna do that, we can definitely see something going on there.

01:06:21

So affirmative always goes first. So Adam, you will begin first, and you'll have up to a minute to ask your question.

01:06:30

Before you do, Travis, while he's asking a question, is there any way we can see you before you bring up your screen?

01:06:36

Yeah, I'm coming back. Okay. I just wanted to set it up. Okay, and you're ready to go? Last time

01:06:42

I did that, it froze up for me a second, but I didn't do it now, so that's good. Gotcha, okay.

01:06:48

Well, Adam, you have up to a minute to ask your questions, and you'll have a total of 20 minutes to do this.

01:06:55

All right, all right, so whenever you get ready.

01:07:01

Yeah, we're ready to go. When you begin to speak, I'll start both timers. Oh, man. All right, I think the biggest thing we're gonna try to nail down here is how you can come to a proper conclusion of faith alone is the definitions of words.

01:07:17

Oh, I mean, would you affirm the definitions

01:07:22

I gave for justification, faith, and propitiation? What were they again?

01:07:31

Justification is to render a favorable verdict to vindicate an action done by God to restore the guilty into a right standing.

01:07:38

That's justification. Faith is to entrust oneself to an entity in complete confidence, believe in, and this type of faith, only

01:07:47

God and Christ are due. And then propitiation, it's an appeasement necessitated by sin, typically an instrument for appeasing or a sin offering.

01:07:58

I guess it depends on the exact context of what you're using, because I mean, like, again, when we talk about the faith, that would be somewhat different from your personal, trusting, believing faith in that way.

01:08:14

And justification, basically, we're probably on the same grounds as far as I would take it as being declared innocent, just, not guilty before God.

01:08:24

I mean, I'm pretty sure you'd probably agree with that. So yeah, I mean, I guess you just have to depend on the context.

01:08:33

But for the most part, I have no objection to what, really. But -

01:08:41

Even that with propitiation? Well, I do want to also define that you brought up justification, you brought up propitiation, you brought up faith, but you also said definitions of words, and you brought up the word alone.

01:08:57

So do you agree with the definition of alone means nothing else? Yes, absolutely. Okay. But I mean, thank you for asking the question on my time, but I'll be cordial and answer it for you, because now

01:09:11

I'm going to throw one back at you. What's your definition of works? Works. Well, I can bring it up.

01:09:18

It's ergon, it's deed or doing. And I showed in my opening that there's different types of works.

01:09:26

There's works of the law of Moses. There's works of the flesh that we don't need to be doing or we'll be lost.

01:09:32

There's works of the gospel, like confessing and repentance and baptism.

01:09:39

And there's works of merit, someone trying to earn their salvation. So there's different works the

01:09:45

Bible says. Belief is a work, again. So it's a deed or doing. I fully agree.

01:09:54

All right, so well then, let me push on, because we can establish. So we are clear that when we talk about works, it's something that we do.

01:10:04

We're not conflating what we do with what God does. So now that I hammered that down, so to be correct, to say that without the

01:10:14

Spirit of God leading you into the works, it would be your works, correct?

01:10:23

So I get two minutes, right, to answer that? Yeah. Okay. Well, another thing is, since I can answer however

01:10:30

I want to answer it, is Jeremiah, he presented that faith plus works.

01:10:38

I'm not representing the works. It's a faith which works. So a lot of people think that we're building a works -based system, but it's a faith -based system which works.

01:10:50

And so to answer your question, in Romans chapter nine through 11, all the way down to 14, it says, for as many are led by the

01:11:03

Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. So if you're doing the works of God, then it's not really a work of merit, it's a work of God.

01:11:12

So that would be, hopefully I helped you understand where I'm coming from. Oh, yeah, that's pretty good.

01:11:22

Could go back to this specific thing on, does everybody have the

01:11:28

Spirit of God? Okay. Or does everybody like on creation have the

01:11:35

Spirit of God? Like, are you talking about humankind or animal?

01:11:45

Yeah, more clearly that are image bearers. Do they have the

01:11:51

Spirit of God when they come into this world or that's what I'm trying to get?

01:11:57

Okay. Well, everybody has a spirit. God gives us a spirit comes from God.

01:12:05

And then when we die, it departs back to him. So everyone has a spirit, but when you're looking up spirit, if you're referring to the

01:12:14

Holy Spirit, not everybody has the Holy Spirit. All right.

01:12:21

So with that in mind, with what I presented about, well,

01:12:26

I guess I better ask you if you even believe what the scriptures teach about original sin.

01:12:33

And to clarify what I mean by original, it is not referred to the first sin committed by Adam and Eve, but the consequences of that sin, which

01:12:43

God carried out a judgment on all creation. So, you know, just like Romans 5 .12,

01:12:52

through one man, sin through death came. Okay.

01:12:58

I believe not in the original sin of the Catholic church that we are guilty, or what

01:13:05

I would say Calvinists believe that we're guilty and condemned. I do believe in the consequences. I've had several debates and the guys keep saying about the consequences because we physically die.

01:13:17

Well, I agree with that, but we're not talking about the consequences. We're talking about the guilt and going to hell for what

01:13:25

Adam did. And when we read Romans chapter five, starting at, let's see, 17, for one man's offense, death reigned by one, much more they which receive abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness shall reign in the life by one

01:13:50

Jesus Christ. Therefore, by the offense of one judgment came unto all men to condemnation.

01:13:57

So I want you to circle that in your Bible, all men, because you guys are not consistent because the next verse,

01:14:04

I mean, the next part of it says, so even so by the righteousness of one, the free gift came to all men and to justification of life.

01:14:13

So you guys have all men going to hell, but you guys are not universalist that teach everybody goes to heaven.

01:14:20

And he says, for as by one man's disobedience, many were made sinners.

01:14:26

In verse 19, for as by, he's referring to just like Adam, see? Like Adam broke

01:14:32

God's law and he sinned. That's the way we are made sinners. Not that you're born totally depraved in sin, when we sin just like Adam.

01:14:43

And again, so by the obedience of one shall be made righteous.

01:14:50

That's how we're made righteous. We obey the gospel. All right,

01:14:57

I'd like you to do that. Well, I want to just kind of push back on that because like you started there in verse 17 and you're kind of giving us a false equivocation here like that because Adam sinned and all died and we're trying to equate that.

01:15:15

And it says all in Jesus, well, you need to back up to verse 15. It says, but the free gift is not like the trespass.

01:15:25

For as many died through one man's trespasses, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of the man,

01:15:31

Christ Jesus abound for many. So you see where the verse says it's not like the trespass of that one man.

01:15:39

So we're not talking universalism here. Calvinist believes in the, and what

01:15:45

I mean by the elect is chosen by God according to the triune counsel of God. So do you want to rephrase like your answer because it says the gift is not like the trespass.

01:15:57

So we're not talking about all we're going to be justified through the sacrifice of Christ.

01:16:06

No, I just stick with what I just said. All right, that's good.

01:16:13

I guess I'll formulate a different question. All right, well, we'll go to, cause this is where my question,

01:16:21

I'm glad that he was talking about Colossians 2 .14 because we see that propitiation was made at the cross by the blood of Christ and the definition for propitiation is a sacrifice to atone for sin to be received by faith,

01:16:37

Romans 3 .25. According to Colossians 2 .14 where sins are taken away at the cross,

01:16:44

I guess the question is, where was the atonement made?

01:16:52

Okay, the atonement, propitiation, the sin atoning or mercy seat more used,

01:16:59

I guess you could use in the Old Testament. In Colossians 2 .14,

01:17:04

if you guys are just chatting away and you're not opening your Bible, you're going to think that you're just going to take

01:17:11

Adam what he's saying. The Bible says in Colossians 2 .14, blotting out the handwriting of the ordinances.

01:17:16

It doesn't say propitiation. It doesn't say that Jesus' blood right there. It says the ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross and having spoiled principality and powers he had made to show them openly, trumping over them.

01:17:36

Verse 16, let no man therefore judge you in meat or in drink or in respect of holiday or the new moon or Sabbath days, which are a shadow of things to come, but the body of Christ.

01:17:47

So Colossians 2 is talking about the old law being nailed in the context, but one must comply with the terms that God has set forth for that atoning to be applied to his account based off of what the individual chooses to do by his free will.

01:18:09

He can either read simple scriptures like repent, be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, or he can read that and put a twist on it and say, well, the for is something else, but it says it's for the remission of sins, see?

01:18:25

So that is how the atoning is applied.

01:18:30

It is when you obey what God says to do. That's my answer.

01:18:39

Thank you. So the question is, it's your understanding today, a sinner, like Ephesians 2 says, dead in our sins and trespasses can do something displeasing to God.

01:18:53

And just kind of, I know you've probably heard this verse time and time again. Romans 8 .8,

01:19:00

for the one in the flesh cannot do anything pleasing to God.

01:19:06

But that's what you're trying to tell people here. Can you do something pleasing to God in the flesh?

01:19:12

Okay. Well, and I'll just go to Romans 8 since you last said that.

01:19:21

So Romans 8, let's see, what is that verse you guys like to use and you have misunderstanding of it?

01:19:27

And it says verse eight, yeah. Romans 8 .8. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please

01:19:33

God. Now I want you viewers to look at this. Do you see Jeremiah? Do you see Adam? Are they in the flesh right now?

01:19:40

Are they walking around? Yes, they're in the flesh. So it comes to, you got to understand what is the flesh mean?

01:19:49

What does that mean in the context? Well, according to Galatians and even in here, the flesh in Romans chapter seven is referring to the law of Moses.

01:20:00

It was a fleshly system, all physical, all of works of what they could do.

01:20:06

So that's why it says, then you are in the flesh cannot please God. You can't please God if you're following the law of Moses, it's been nailed to the cross.

01:20:14

You must be, verse 13, for if you live after the flesh, you shall die.

01:20:20

But through the spirit, you mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live. For as many as are led by the spirit, how are you led by the spirit today?

01:20:28

Through his word, through what he has revealed. So that's what that's referring to in the flesh.

01:20:35

I'm not trying to tell people they're in the flesh, they can please God, because that would be saying that you can please

01:20:43

God by following the law of Moses. That's the whole contrast of most of Paul's writings. Whenever someone is taught something for so long, it becomes brainwashed in their head.

01:20:54

And that's what Paul is dealing with these Judaizers, contrasting the new law, the gospel of Christ, and the old law.

01:21:03

So that's my answer for that. And flesh can also mean sin or just a flesh sinful living.

01:21:12

Those are the two ways that you would understand flesh. All right, thank you for that.

01:21:18

Adam. Oh, wow. I mean, so it's your understanding that flesh is talking about the old law?

01:21:33

Is that what you're saying? Within this context, it is shown in Galatians 2 .20

01:21:41

or in Galatians chapter two, and in Romans chapter seven, it is referring to the law.

01:21:51

He just is talking about the law. Of Moses. Where'd you say that's at again?

01:22:03

Galatians, where Paul says, for I have been crucified with Christ and no longer I that live, but a cross that lives through me.

01:22:10

The life I now live, I live through faith in Christ. Is that the verse you're talking about? I mean. Well, that is one way that I can show you that flesh, that the flesh depends on the context of what you're reading and there even

01:22:29

Paul says there in Galatians 2 .20,

01:22:35

I am crucified with Christ. Nevertheless, I live, not I, but Christ liveth in me and the life that I will now live in the flesh.

01:22:42

Well, there he's talking about his physical flesh in that sense. But in Romans, I might've misspoke, but Romans is talking about the law of Moses as we see throughout chapter seven, and all throughout in verse 25.

01:22:59

But the law, but verse 25, I thank God through Jesus Christ, our Lord, so that with my mind,

01:23:04

I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh, the law of sin. There's where he's talking about the sinfulness of the flesh, but it can also mean the law of Moses.

01:23:19

But we'll have to assume it means the law of Moses because it's not didactically taught where flesh is talking about the law of Moses because Paul goes on to say there in Romans seven, let me see here, he's talking about that I have a desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out because sinful nature.

01:23:42

So where did Paul get his nature? Did it be first sin?

01:23:49

Or was that your position that Paul didn't become a sinner when he sinned?

01:23:56

Okay, two minutes for that. Where did

01:24:01

Paul get his nature? Well, he got his nature. His human nature came all the way from Adam.

01:24:10

Not that somehow after Adam's sin, some kind of depraved nature was infused to his gene pool, and somehow the

01:24:18

Catholic church says it's a mystery. As Paul even says in Romans seven, nine, for I was alive without the law once, and then when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

01:24:28

So even Paul says he was alive without the law. At one point, if he was born lost and totally depraved, he wouldn't have said

01:24:35

I was alive without the law. And for the reference to answer the question about the flesh, we also have

01:24:45

Romans, well, I might have used that. No, Romans seven, five, that's not the verse

01:24:53

I used earlier. It says for when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins which were by the law.

01:25:00

So there's that connection. It's not assuming there in Romans seven, five, it is referring to the law of Moses, and he refers to it as flesh.

01:25:10

It was a fleshly system. That's my answer.

01:25:17

I'll just say that's my answer, that way you can start the clock over. I know it's gotta be hard with some of this. All right,

01:25:23

I just want to kind of push back. I mean, you just quoted there in Romans seven. That's why

01:25:29

I guess it was a good thing to try to bring up which translation we use, but my translation says, for while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions aroused by the law, because we know that in my opening, that those that are under the law, law brings awareness to sin.

01:25:51

That's what Paul's talking about here, that the law aroused his sin. So you're trying to do cartwheels on that verse and say that it's talking about the law or some other way you put it, but sins aroused by the law.

01:26:13

So Travis, you'll have, I know it says 50 seconds remaining, but you'll have a full two minutes to respond to this.

01:26:20

We'll make this the last response. Okay, guys? All right. Okay. Well, regardless,

01:26:27

I guess really of the translation, I forget exactly what his English standard said. I'm reading out of King James.

01:26:32

It says, for when we were in the flesh, I think he has said sinful flesh, the motions of the sins, okay, what did the law do?

01:26:41

The law revealed sin. So therefore, he's showing that when we were in the flesh, at one point,

01:26:48

Paul was a Jew. He was under that old law and then he refers to it in the same verse, which were by the law.

01:27:00

So that's showing that there's a big contrast in the book of Romans of the old law and the gospel system.

01:27:07

All right. Okay, and you have another minute if you wanted to, Travis, but if you're good, then we will switch.

01:27:16

Totally up to you. Okay. I'm gonna see if this works out good. Yes. Well, y 'all are doing fantastic so far.

01:27:24

Very respectful. That makes my job a whole lot easier. I can just stick with my little clock timers and just hang out back here.

01:27:33

So Travis, we can see your screen. So you're good there. And the format's the same thing, right?

01:27:40

You'll have up to a minute to ask your questions, Travis. And Adam, you have up to two minutes to respond.

01:27:45

And I just wanna also encourage the audience, keep asking questions. I've seen some really good ones in the chat, so I can't wait for later at the end.

01:27:52

So Travis, I will begin both clocks when you begin speaking. All right,

01:27:57

I got a minute to ask my question. So here's my question in regards to what

01:28:05

I'm gonna ask. Did you start the time? Yeah, yeah. Oh, I see it now.

01:28:10

I was looking at his time. No, Joe, I'm not King James only, man. I mean, come on. All right, question number one.

01:28:17

If you convince me in this debate, would that impact or change my salvation, or is my salvation already predetermined,

01:28:26

Adam? All right, well, great question,

01:28:31

Travis. Well, you've said here this, if I convinced you.

01:28:39

So we're gonna pick this apart. Convincing somebody, are we talking about intellectually? Because no, somebody's change of mind never will change a person's heart.

01:28:51

Christ alone does that in regeneration, so. But your salvation, as it stands right now, no offense, and I don't wanna disrespect anybody, but I believe that you have a false gospel.

01:29:06

A gospel that works is a gospel that denies the finished work of Christ. When he said in John 19 .30,

01:29:13

it is finished, tetelestahi. It means nothing else after this point, when he gave up his spirit to the

01:29:20

Father, it's done. So your salvation is still truly up to him.

01:29:26

And like I said, just hearing the gospel is a different story than the

01:29:32

Holy Spirit working through the gospel. Predetermination is determined by God.

01:29:38

I don't get to say what he determines. That's human, the

01:29:44

Son of the Holy Spirit that determines that. So no, intellectual change will not affect your salvation status.

01:29:51

Just a heart change from the Holy Spirit will. All right, now,

01:29:57

I know Jeremiah, you was talking about, I asked you about rebuttaling, but he got to rebuttal a little bit on the second question, so he got to reply back.

01:30:05

So I think it would be fair for me to reply somewhat back to his question, right? Absolutely, you have up to a minute to frame your question however you want.

01:30:14

Okay, well, 2 Corinthians 5 .9, as you can see on the screen, that's why I wanted people to actually read the word of God.

01:30:21

He says, so whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him, for we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ so that each one may receive what he has done for what he has done in his body, not what

01:30:37

Adam did, whether good or evil. Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men. Adam can't persuade anyone with a

01:30:43

Calvinist. He's got to sit around and wait. They might as well be preaching to these rocks right here I got on my thing.

01:30:50

Question two, we see the definition of ergon, an act of deed of doing.

01:30:56

When Jesus saw their faith, was he referring to their actions? Which one do you want me to answer first?

01:31:06

You got two of them there? Oh, well, I mean, this is the definition. Oh, you want me to answer specifically on ergon?

01:31:15

Yeah, well, we know that ergon is anything that exerts effort, but we know that Paul says in Romans 10 that when you hear the gospel, you believe from the heart.

01:31:29

So we're seeing a heart there by the Holy Spirit that when we heard of the gospel of our salvation, well, that's what that's talking about, that God does that regenerative work, changing from death to life.

01:31:42

And so, I mean, no, faith and works are categorically different.

01:31:49

And then, I mean, when you talk theology, we're really going to talk about even our works and God's works are categorically different.

01:31:57

You got the creator creation distinction here that we're not even on the same level. So you can't equivocate what

01:32:03

God does with a human, his own creation, whether it's Psalm 115 or something like that.

01:32:09

God can do whatever he pleases. Hey, let Adam finish. He has up to two minutes to respond how he wants.

01:32:17

Okay. So I appreciate that, Travis, but yeah, like God can do whatever he wants with his creation.

01:32:24

And as far as I'm concerned, we are his creation. So to think that we can just come on to the throne room of God and say, here

01:32:31

I am, we've done it. Look at us. I mean, that's absurdity, Travis. So, I mean,

01:32:37

I don't want to keep going. You can go with the next question. All right, well, my question was, when

01:32:47

I was asking, was not really, this is not the question about works or Ergon. I was showing the definition and this was the question and you didn't even answer the question, eat up time there.

01:32:59

It says, when Jesus saw their faith, was he referring to their actions? That's the question.

01:33:07

Okay, I tried to get you to clarify which one did you want me to answer? The one on Ergon? Oh, well,

01:33:14

I tried to make it clarifying, Jeremy, I got onto it. Sorry, I wasn't trying to be super mean with it.

01:33:23

So what you're really trying to tell me to give you an answer that qualifies it now,

01:33:29

Jesus, the son of God has to see something happen in order for it to be unfolding.

01:33:36

We're talking about the son of God here. So I would really like to push back on you and ask a question back, but I can't, this is your time.

01:33:44

The son of God sees the hearts and minds of all men. That's what God does. His in communicable, he can see the hearts of men, that he can see the movements of particles in the air.

01:33:57

I mean, he has sovereign control over everything. So to say that he has to see somebody touch his garment or whatever the case may be, that he has to see that in order to attribute faith to that person is just another absurdity to me.

01:34:13

I mean, are we talking about the son of God or are we just talking about a man? Thank you.

01:34:22

All right, I'll go to my next question. Please join in the review because for the people in the audience, this was a very basic question and we'll review the answer that wasn't even answered.

01:34:33

So question number three, question number three, listen to Trey here.

01:34:42

Well, this is an old laptop, it probably won't play the video. Oh well.

01:34:50

Nevertheless, many even of the authorities believed. So there's your faith alone, Adam. So these authorities believed in him.

01:34:58

But a fear of the Pharisees, they did not confess it so that they would be put out of the synagogue for they loved the glory.

01:35:05

So my question is, do you believe these men were saved, Adam? And I was gonna play a video of Trey said they were lost, but see, they believed, he denied faith only.

01:35:16

So do you also deny faith only that these people were saved or were they lost? Very easy question.

01:35:24

Okay, well, I think you're making a categorical error here because they didn't have faith in Christ because if you read,

01:35:33

I don't even have to turn back to John 12, it's kind of the context flows. I mean, but I will, because I got what, two minutes?

01:35:42

Oh yeah. Yeah, oh yeah. So let me just go ahead and John 12.

01:35:52

Well, what verse is this? All right, let me read it here.

01:36:05

It says, nevertheless, many of the authorities believed in him, believed there, for as far as he's confessed it in the synagogue.

01:36:19

Yeah, so I mean, you're taking it, this is the kind of faith that, y 'all's favorite verse is

01:36:25

James, where even the demons believed and that there was one God, but this is the kind of faith that it's talking about here.

01:36:35

It's true in the mind. I mean, I can have faith that the sun's gonna rise up tomorrow, but I mean,

01:36:41

Christ could return and not come up tomorrow. So I mean, your categorical error on just tying belief,

01:36:49

I mean, because if I go back to what you're trying to say is, remember that context will determine what a word truly means in the context.

01:36:58

And so, I mean, if you read the full context, it's not a faith from the heart, it's talking about a mind faith.

01:37:09

All right, Travis. All right, my next question is, and he did say that they,

01:37:14

I guess they were lost, so he denied faith alone again, another one. So how does faith grant some, how does

01:37:23

God, come on, oh, computer. We can read it, go ahead.

01:37:30

Well, I have a video. Got it. All right, 30 seconds.

01:37:45

If you wanna ask it. Well, I asked Matt Slick, I asked Matt Slick, how does God grant someone faith?

01:37:51

And he says, I don't know. So my question to you is, Adam, how does

01:37:56

God grant someone faith? And just, I'm glad that's a good question, because he's talking about Philippians 1 .29,

01:38:04

God granting faith, and also to suffer with Christ. And Matt Slick would also tie 2

01:38:12

Timothy 2 .25, that he also grants repentance. And like my pastor

01:38:17

Jeremiah would say that faith and repentance are both sides of the same coin. So we see that happening in regeneration, when the

01:38:26

Holy Spirit awakens the heart and does that heart transplant, it produces faith and repentance.

01:38:33

So that's how it's a work of God, that nobody can act in their own faith.

01:38:40

And the faith that we have is strictly essential, it's of the mind. But the faith that God grants is fiducia, it's of the heart, the heart transplant.

01:38:49

Like I've already said in Romans 10, where Paul says, scripture says, God says that we believe from the heart.

01:38:57

Well, how can that be if Jeremiah 17 .9 says that the heart is wicked above all things, who can know it?

01:39:05

I mean, then was it Genesis 6 .5, that the mind is wicked above all things and the heart does whatever it wants.

01:39:13

So I mean, you're making a categorical error when you're just using the word, like you already said before, the context for determining the meaning, you're just applying the same meaning across places.

01:39:28

Okay. You done, Adam? Yeah. You're good, Travis? Yeah. All right.

01:39:35

We'll get a minute to respond. Here I got up on the screen, I do apologize. This one's a little bit bigger on YouTube.

01:39:41

You notice there, he says, God grants you faith. He's trying somehow saying that God makes you believe, but notice what the

01:39:50

Bible says. The faith of the gospel and not frightening anything by your opponents, this is a clear sign to them of their destruction, but of your salvation.

01:39:59

Notice the little arrows there. And that is from God. For it, salvation is from God, not your faith somehow being some kind of miracle working on you.

01:40:09

See how it says, and it has been granted, what? Through the gospel, preachers.

01:40:15

So again, Matt Slick couldn't answer it. How many times was

01:40:20

Abraham justified, Adam? That's a great question.

01:40:28

We can see that in Genesis 12, that some promises are already being made to Abraham, but I wouldn't qualify that as when he was justified.

01:40:41

He's just laying out this promise God is. And so when we see in Genesis 15, six, because that's the context

01:40:48

Paul brings up in Romans, there's when Abraham's faith vindicated or justified before God, because God is one that granted him faith so that he could be justified.

01:41:07

And I know y 'all is gonna try to, forgive me, I don't mean to say y 'all. You are gonna try to say in Genesis 22, where he's been vindicated before man by offering up his son,

01:41:20

Isaac. And we can qualify that because in Genesis 22, one, I believe that the two men there that are his servants, he qualifies that me and my son are gonna go up to do this, that what we're going to do, that we will return, me and my son will return to you.

01:41:38

So, and we see that being vindicated before man there in their faith. And as all scripture is read for the edification of God's children.

01:41:48

So we see a worldwide application of Abraham's faith being vindicated before man.

01:41:54

So I'm so grateful that as Paul says in Romans, we before said that he was credited, not for his sake, but for our sakes, that we see that Abraham was credited as righteous by faith.

01:42:11

So I think we're kind of losing things in pedagogical terminologies from the gospels.

01:42:19

I mean, the gospels are great for teaching. We get to see the deity of Christ and other workings of the apostles, but the didactic teachings come from the epistles.

01:42:30

I mean, those are foundational. Paul wrote those. Thank you, Adam. That was a good, Travis, your question.

01:42:36

All right. Again, for the viewers, he didn't answer it. He couldn't even give a number on how many times was

01:42:43

Abraham justified. I got it on the screen. I'm so glad I had another camera where you guys could see this stuff.

01:42:49

And in Genesis 12, one through three, he obeyed by faith. It wasn't a dead faith, and I'm not teaching a works -based system.

01:42:57

It's a faith which works by love. And Genesis 15, six, he knows that one.

01:43:03

They all know that one, because if you actually read Genesis 15, six, God didn't even give him a command there to obey, but it would be like a

01:43:13

Christian today. If God tells me he answers my prayers and I believe him, well, he didn't give me a command in that example there.

01:43:22

And then he was circumcised in Genesis 17, but he was also justified in James 2 .21.

01:43:29

My question is, Matt, Jeremiah, Trey, please answer the questions. They're kind of simple.

01:43:34

Matt, Jeremiah, Trey, say God makes you obey, God is responsible, and it is

01:43:41

God's fault if someone does not obey him. My question is, do you really blame

01:43:46

God or Travis if I do not believe faith alone? Well, that's a pretty loaded question.

01:43:55

I'll try to target some of it. I mean, because the key point is you're trying to qualify and saying

01:44:03

God is making versus leaving you in sin.

01:44:11

I mean, we all have an appointment with hell, but God's intervening in a believer's life through the gospel by the means which he brings faith, which you would also say that like Romans 5 says that we get our faith by hearing the gospel, faith comes by hearing.

01:44:28

So we definitely agree with that. But yeah, God doesn't make you believe.

01:44:39

He gives you a new heart so that you can believe. So this is where we're on opposition here.

01:44:47

When I was dead in my sins and trespasses, and I can say it because I was a drug addict for almost 19 years and God had to make me surrender.

01:44:58

And that's what I did when the Holy Spirit come onto my heart after hearing the gospel. I surrendered my life to him by the grace of God.

01:45:07

I will say through faith that he's granted me by his goodness and mercy. All right,

01:45:15

Travis. All right, maybe you guys can hear this. I'm gonna play this. Need some time.

01:45:33

So it's really hard to hear on my end. Oh, here it is.

01:45:45

Well, Trey says he makes you obey him. You guys get on my playlist and look. Since, I forget

01:45:52

I have, wait, I have a minute or two. You have 50 seconds to formulate this question.

01:45:58

All right, so since your view of, well, that won't take me too long to read that.

01:46:04

But Trey, Adam, you just disagree with Trey. You guys need to get on my playlist. And Trey says he makes you obey him.

01:46:11

You said he don't make you, so you guys need to work that out. Since your view of being saved by faith alone has no actions involved with salvation, how do you explain, and you've been taking about two minutes, go to Exodus chapter 14, verse 13, read that, and then 21 through 22 and 29 through 31.

01:46:29

How do you explain these away if you don't have to do nothing? All right, you'll have a full two minutes to respond,

01:46:39

Adam. All right, well, thank you, Travis, for that wonderful question.

01:46:46

Yeah, I mean, just with the verses you pulled up leads me to believe that you are still under your covenant head,

01:46:52

Adam, because you're pushing back to what we should do according to the

01:46:57

Exodus. I mean, come on, Travis, you're proclaiming to teach

01:47:04

God's word, but you don't know the distinction between the old covenant and the new covenant. And yeah,

01:47:10

I do agree with what Trey Fisher said. I think you're just placing what he means by makes.

01:47:19

I believe, in a sense, that God makes because we're dead in our sins and trespasses, so there is a touch of there that he makes.

01:47:28

But before I just kind of let this run out, you made a little video about Calvinists that were passive in salvation justification.

01:47:37

I agree, but that's not what Calvinism teach because it's Calvinism, because that's what scripture teaches.

01:47:44

If you look at Romans 5 .1, we have been justified. That's written in the passive voice.

01:47:52

That means we fall in submission. We're passive in justification. Salvation's of the

01:47:59

Lord. Repent and believe. Well, that's time.

01:48:04

All righty. Well, y 'all both done a great job and I get to play this horn. We survived.

01:48:14

We survived the fire of the cross -examination. Hey, y 'all both have done a fantastic job in my book.

01:48:21

I'm glad we utilized some of the timers, but we were kind of soft. Like if there was needing a time of clarifying a question,

01:48:27

I wanted to be able to give you that. But the reason why we use timers too is because if we say, hey, I'm just asking a simple question.

01:48:33

Just give me a yes or no. Well, this gives the other person a chance to say, well, I think it was a loaded question.

01:48:39

I think there are certain assumptions being loaded in there that need to be unpacked. Travis, I think you did a great job.

01:48:44

Adam, I think you did too. So now we're going to transition to our closing statements.

01:48:50

This will only take about five minutes or so. So just give us some reflections of things that really stood out to you.

01:48:56

Some of the last things that you want our audience to hear you talk about in this debate. So when you begin talking,

01:49:01

Adam, I'll start your time. Well, I just want to thank

01:49:07

Travis for taking this debate. Yeah, this is my first debate.

01:49:13

Like I said, just to know the life that I lived and I don't attribute any mind thinking and stuff coming to salvation because like I said,

01:49:26

I was a heathen and I was living for, I was living in sin.

01:49:32

So I can fully understand and qualify that we were in sin.

01:49:38

And man, I was going to bring up Psalm 51, five where King David said

01:49:44

I was conceived in sin, but I just didn't get to it. And so,

01:49:50

I mean, yeah, Travis has got a lot of good talk. I mean, he's very educated.

01:49:56

I mean, it just blows my mind to see all them books on his shelf, knowing that they don't do much attributing to book reading, but I'm thankful that he was able to come on here so quickly in the past two weeks.

01:50:09

And just to be sure, when we think back when

01:50:17

God sent his son, some God, Jesus Christ, he needed to see you act that faith out before he knew who to save.

01:50:31

And that's gotta be the craziest thing you can ever comprehend.

01:50:37

I think that God himself needed your help to save you instead of what

01:50:43

Ephesians one is specifically talking about that he chose us individuals in Christ before the foundation of the world and redeemed us by his son's blood and sealed us by the

01:50:54

Holy Spirit. In Ephesians 1 .13, and then if you look at Ephesians 4 .30, all that were sealed to the day of redemption.

01:51:01

And I know I didn't get to touch on it very much, but salvation security. He sent his son to save a people.

01:51:10

And if we read Ephesians 5 .25, it's a particular people that he died for. The church, the definite article in front of church is specific to who he gave his life for.

01:51:22

Christ didn't make salvation possible. He come and accomplish the will of the father.

01:51:28

And we could have went into John six more on that because Jesus said, nobody can come to me unless granted by the father.

01:51:34

And everybody that comes to me, I will raise up on the last day. So kind of insinuating the whole tulip of Calvinist teaching.

01:51:42

And with me saying Calvinist, everything Calvin affirms, I do not.

01:51:47

I'm a Calvinist because of the tulip that is pointing to Christ and Christ alone.

01:51:54

All glory to God as far as I'm concerned that this old wretched sin of flesh who can deliver me all alone.

01:52:03

So I'm so grateful for Pastor Jeremiah for having me on this debate.

01:52:09

I was kind of nervous at first this travesty is so educated. I mean,

01:52:15

I seem just kind of reading scripture, but I mean, that's the distinction where you enter, but to study it and know words and how the words mean in context.

01:52:28

And even Travis himself said that context will help determine what the meaning of the word is, but he never really applied that to his own standard.

01:52:37

He kept having the same definition of the word spread across the board.

01:52:46

But I'm grateful that I had this opportunity. All glory to God and man be a liar, as Paul says in Romans three.

01:52:55

All glory to God. Thank you. Awesome. Thank you so much,

01:53:00

Adam, for those closing remarks. Now, Travis, the floor is yours for five minutes when you begin speaking.

01:53:09

Well, I am actually, I'm glad that Adam got off of drugs and everything. There's many members of the

01:53:17

Lord's church who get off of drugs and they change a lot, but we're not saved by our good works.

01:53:23

Those things are, without the blood of Jesus, are filthy rags. So you have to do what the

01:53:29

Bible says. And I really wish Adam would repent. I didn't know he had been a member of the

01:53:36

Lord's church. Oh, what member? Oh, you just attended.

01:53:42

I'm sorry. I thought I misunderstood you there. And so, well, that's kind of, I guess, well, you still need to think about attending with the congregation.

01:53:53

I don't have to practice discipline on you. Jeremiah probably knew where I was going with that as avoiding

01:54:00

Trey. I'm just really excited about more of the after show.

01:54:05

I know there's a lot of people in the keyboard, in the chat, writing a lot of things.

01:54:11

A lot of things about, did I debate Trey? Did I debate Jeremiah? No, I'm trying to show the inconsistent.

01:54:18

Adam, you need to watch these videos and they're so inconsistent. See, you couldn't even answer like, can you change my mind through the scriptures of me seeing faith alone?

01:54:29

Well, it's not in there. You're not going to change my mind. It's a dead faith, God says. You didn't affirm your proposition and you can't.

01:54:40

And I do appreciate you coming on. And some of these questions I have to say, if I was a

01:54:46

Calvinist, these are hard questions, Adam. And that's why in the review, we're going to look at that you didn't answer these.

01:54:52

And I really wish in some ways that Trey, I mean, Jeremiah would have answered these as your pastor, because I just didn't get any answer from you on these questions.

01:55:07

You guys may be wondering what I'm trying to do, but I'm trying to get my screen to record.

01:55:13

That way we can go and review it right away on the after review.

01:55:20

So again, he didn't affirm faith alone. I've showed James says it's a dead faith.

01:55:28

The faith that Romans is talking about, Paul's talking about Romans as a faith which worketh by love.

01:55:34

It's not a dead faith. We can't brag or boast when we obey God. We have to be humble and just do what he says.

01:55:42

In Romans, I mean, Romans 1 and 5 starts about through him we have received grace and a posture for the obedience to the faith among all nations.

01:55:52

Romans 2, 8, but to those who are self -seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, we have to obey

01:56:01

God. And no one can turn around and boast or brag about it. This basically was a waste of time because Calvinists believe that you're passive and that is not what the gospel teaches.

01:56:15

Why give the Great Commission? Why do we have the power of the gospel? And I read it right here and I made a video and I appreciate him watching it from their catechism here, the

01:56:26

Westminster Confession of Faith. It says, altogether passive, that's mankind is passive until being quickened and renewed.

01:56:34

So I should have just sat here and just stared at the wall the whole time in this debate, waiting for the

01:56:40

Spirit to directly work on me. That's what I was going to do because that is in the books. Now, some of you guys laugh at that, but the really is when you lay your head down, you think that is actually what we teach, that God makes us obey.

01:56:55

We don't have free will. What is the point of the Great Commission? Why evangelize? We're born totally depraved and Adam is depraved and you're going to sit here and listen to him try to teach me that I can't even understand and be persuaded that it's made by faith alone?

01:57:12

It's just, it's kind of ridiculous. And I've seen atheists just talk about the argumentation.

01:57:18

I had an atheist call my show and he thought I was going to talk about the proof of God is because I had some kind of change in my life.

01:57:25

See, no. I mean, there's Muslims who get off drugs. There's Muslims who stop smoking crack.

01:57:32

Does that mean that the Muslim religion is the true religion? No, I'm glad that you're not on that stuff of your addiction problems, but you've got to be in the blood of Jesus.

01:57:48

And to do that, we see in Acts 22, 16, Ananias, a gospel preacher, he didn't just sit around waiting for some kind of miracle, direct operation to happen to Saul.

01:57:58

He went and told him the gospel and said, get up, be baptized and wash away your sins. Call him on the name of the Lord. So now we're ready for the question and answers.

01:58:09

Y 'all have done a great job. I felt like y 'all summarized your points really well.

01:58:17

Obviously we disagree the affirmative and negative on the proposition. And so that's why

01:58:23

I'm in favor of not having a question for a proposition because it's not really a proposition.

01:58:28

You want something laser focused so you can say, hey, I either agree with it or I disagree with it. So I think y 'all highlight your disagreements really well.

01:58:36

So we are going to transition to our audience Q &A. And so we have a ton of questions submitted in.

01:58:46

And so what we're going to do, you see some timers on your screen. When I pull up a question, whoever it's directed to will have up to two minutes to answer.

01:58:56

And the person the question was not addressed to gets a minute to kind of say what they think in response to that.

01:59:03

Now, Travis, it's eight o 'clock. I think we're all in the same time zone. So I was planning on hoping to do this from 20 to 30 minutes.

01:59:12

Are you okay with that? Yeah, let's see where we are at 20. Okay, that sounds good.

01:59:19

So let's see here. We have a question. Let me see if I can do this right.

01:59:25

I got a new with Ecamm Live. So this is a question from CJ Marshall.

01:59:31

Can y 'all see this on y 'all's end? Yeah, I can. Now it's getting better.

01:59:37

All right. Got to make sure I don't accidentally close out the whole program in this.

01:59:44

All right, CJ Marshall, question for Adam. If we are all justified by Jesus alone, why do we need faith?

01:59:52

Wouldn't we be adding to Jesus's work alone? We don't need faith. What say you, sir?

02:00:01

That's a good question, CJ. I guess you're conflating the means by which we are justified with the avenue by which we come to be justified.

02:00:14

Faith is the avenue, the avenue that God opened up by granting us faith that leads from Christ to our justification.

02:00:23

So we're not adding to Christ's work. It's a necessary condition that's granted by God for us to come to Christ.

02:00:32

It's not adding to Christ's work. It's the avenue to get to Christ. It's by faith, by grace through faith, those are avenues, graces of God.

02:00:43

So it's not adding to Christ's work. It's a way to get to it. Thank you for that.

02:00:49

So Travis, you'll have up to a minute to respond to some of your thoughts of how Adam answered this question.

02:00:58

Um, well, I don't think he answered it very well because it's a good question.

02:01:05

The question is, if you guys keep saying Christ did it all, Christ did it all, then you turn around and say, you debate that we're saved by faith alone, but then you turn around and say that we can't even obey this doctrine of faith only unless God just picks us out and makes us obey.

02:01:25

And again, the Calvinism is pointless to me, but that's my response.

02:01:34

Appreciate that response. All right, we have T. Fish in the house, the fish bone,

02:01:41

Trey Fisher. His name was dropped a few times in this dialogue. So Trey, thanks for being here, man.

02:01:48

Question for Travis. Isn't it true that you don't really believe one must repent and be baptized to be saved?

02:01:56

If you believe that, then you must believe Baptist are saved. Please explain.

02:02:02

Travis, you got two minutes. Okay, two minutes. Well, I'm gonna probably sit here for 10 minutes and wait for the spirit to miraculously work on us in some kind of direct way without the means of the gospel.

02:02:17

I mean, we're debating about the book. The book is the power of God. And so Baptists are not baptized, okay?

02:02:25

They dunk you in water. Jehovah Witnesses dunk you in water. Mormons will dunk you in water and they'll dunk you for your dead uncle 13 years ago who died.

02:02:35

They dunk people like that. And so that's, Trey, you don't understand.

02:02:41

Just because you get dunked in water, that's not baptism for the remission of sins, all right?

02:02:46

We have an account in Acts chapter 19. If you would open your Bibles there, you would see that these individuals, they were even baptized for the remission of sins under John's baptism.

02:03:01

And it was no longer in effect because the old law was nailed to the cross.

02:03:06

And now you have the great commission. And in verse two of 19, it says, and he said to them, have you received the

02:03:12

Holy Ghost since you believe? And they said unto him, we have not so much heard whether there be a Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, what then were you baptized?

02:03:19

And they said, it's under John's baptism. So when you're baptized by a baptism that's not even valid, what do you have to do?

02:03:26

You have to get baptized the right way. So Baptists don't baptize you the right way. None of these denominations baptize you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.

02:03:39

So that's my answer. All right, thank you for that. Adam, you have a minute to share your thoughts.

02:03:46

All right, I'm glad you brought up Acts 19, but I wanna, if I can quickly, 18, 24,

02:03:55

I mean, we're talking about Apollos. He's teaching and let me see, Priscilla and Aquila heard him and they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.

02:04:07

So we're seeing that Apollos was teaching scripture, but not correctly.

02:04:12

So Priscilla and Aquila pulled him aside and kind of adjusted his framework. And so when we're talking about there in Acts 19, where they were baptized, they were baptized by John, they were still old covenant believers,

02:04:26

John's disciples. Cause it says the 12 disciples there in 19 seven, there were about 12 men in all.

02:04:34

Those disciples were John's disciples and they got rebaptized.

02:04:39

They ain't heard of the Holy Spirit. So they didn't have the Christian baptism. Then we see that the baptism,

02:04:45

Paul had to physically, he said, I'm gonna lay hands on you. And that's how they got the Holy Spirit. So you're trying to equate narratival with didactic teachings of how one receives the

02:04:56

Holy Spirit. Thank you for that. Thank you for that, Adam. Okay, so we have a really good question from Shane Fisher.

02:05:05

I think he might be cousins with Trey Fisher. Y 'all need to look into that, but this is for you,

02:05:10

Adam. Does water baptism fit into the category of sanctification? Sanctification and justification?

02:05:17

None of the above? If it is only sanctification, how do you explain this fantastic verse of 1

02:05:23

Corinthians 6, 11? You got two minutes, Adam. That's wonderful. I'm glad you brought that up.

02:05:30

Cause I mean, I don't like throwing church cross out there like that, but it's gotta be something that you're trying to grab hold of, but I'll run to 1

02:05:38

Corinthians real quick. 1 Corinthians 6, and it's talking about the,

02:05:44

I mean, I don't think Paul here is kind of give a ordo salutis or anything like that, because he says that all things are lawful.

02:05:53

No, back up one more. So if you've been lost, you were sanctified and you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ by the

02:05:59

Spirit of God. And so you see how Paul's just tied all three things to the Spirit of God. So he's not giving the ordo salutis.

02:06:06

And so if you want to back up to 1 Corinthians 1, we see

02:06:12

Paul talking through his opening. He says, I, Paul, and then says to the church cross in Corinth together and all those who in every place call upon the name of the

02:06:26

Lord Jesus, both Lord, it's great to be to you. No, no, that's not it. Oh yeah, yeah.

02:06:34

Back up to two. It says to those sanctified in Christ Jesus called to be saints.

02:06:39

See, the called there is what we would attempt to say regenerative work by God. They called somebody to be a saint, sanctified in Christ Jesus.

02:06:49

So you gotta let the flow of thought go through all the books. I'm not saying that 1 Corinthians 1 is gonna determine the thought in six, but Paul's not giving a ordo salutis there.

02:07:00

He's just saying that all three are done by the Holy Spirit. All righty, thanks so much.

02:07:07

Travis, what are your thoughts? Got a minute. All right, I do think Calvinist doctrine has a misunderstanding of the, as what they maybe call it, the second work of grace of sanctification.

02:07:20

In Hebrews 12, verse 14, it says, follow peace with all men and holiness, sanctification there without which no man shall see the

02:07:31

Lord. And so that's connected with salvation there. And in chapter 13, verse 12, it says, wherefore

02:07:39

Jesus also that he might sanctify the people with his own blood.

02:07:46

So there's your set apart by the blood of Jesus. We see the Calvinist, they have a misunderstanding of sanctification and justification.

02:07:57

All right, that's my time. Thank you for that. All right, now, Travis, we have a question for you.

02:08:04

I'm pretty sure from Jamie AG. She says, Travis, what works did the thief on the cross produce?

02:08:13

You can't have a good debate between a Baptist and church cross without the thief on the cross being brought up.

02:08:20

So tell us what's going on here, Travis. You got two minutes. Two minutes, all right, thanks.

02:08:26

I bet this just kills Jeremiah because I know he wants to answer some of these so bad. He's probably just dying inside.

02:08:32

But the thief on the cross, I would encourage you, Jamie, to get on truth with proof and just type in thief on the cross.

02:08:40

I had a Baptist call in my program one time. He wanted to use the thief on the cross.

02:08:46

And after I threw it back on him, he actually says, oh, I see what you're saying. That was before the cross.

02:08:53

So he answered it that way. And I have another answer on there. So you may say, what works did he do?

02:08:58

Well, a Calvinist would say he just sat there and just waited for the Spirit to work on him. He didn't do anything.

02:09:04

But the Bible says that the other, in Luke 24, verse 40, but the other answering rebuked him saying, dost thou fear

02:09:12

God, seeing thou are in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we received the due reward of our deeds, but this man had done nothing amiss.

02:09:22

And when he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into the kingdom.

02:09:28

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto you, today thou shalt be with me in paradise. Well, apparently he did something.

02:09:37

He said, we deserve what we received. But you would say that's a work because he spoke and he repented.

02:09:43

See, that actually contradicts the Calvinist doctrine again. They can't teach their doctrine. And when I listen to them preach, me knowing the

02:09:51

Scriptures, and I'm not that smart. I don't sell something about me being smart. I'm really not that smart. I appreciate the compliments.

02:09:57

But I can listen to them preach within five minutes. They contradict themselves. It is ridiculous.

02:10:03

Just give up the Calvinist doctrine, man. It doesn't work. And so we see the thief.

02:10:09

What work did he do? He repented. And guess what? It was before the Great Commission. And if you want to call him to the after show,

02:10:18

I'd love to discuss with you more about the good old thief on the cross, but he's still in souls today because you don't want to obey the gospel.

02:10:26

All righty. Thank you for that. Adam, you got a minute. What do you think? Oh, man.

02:10:33

I appreciate Jamie's question there, but I'm not one of those Baptists that run to the thief on the cross because there's not a lot of substantial things there.

02:10:44

I mean, Travis could try to point you to something else. They'd try to say that he was baptized or whatever in the old covenant and things like that.

02:10:50

I was kind of just hoping that he would just say what they normally say, that all authority has been given to me.

02:10:57

He saved him by his own power. That has no influence on me, but I can definitely push back and say, well, if baptism is necessary, it has to be necessary across the board.

02:11:13

So it kind of falls back no matter what scripture you bring up. And if baptism is necessary, it's necessary across the board.

02:11:24

All right, thank you for that. Now we got a question from Clint Little. I've told Clint he is one of my favorite

02:11:30

Church Christ of all time. Travis is up there too. So I'm really loving this exchange with y 'all.

02:11:37

So this is for Adam. Clint asks, how can we be saved by faith alone when the gospel names 23 things directly involved in salvation?

02:11:50

Well, that's a great question, Mr. Little, but there's not a whole lot there that I can go off of, but I think

02:11:57

I read, you may have been the guy that put like 25 or a whole list of things that's got sozo.

02:12:05

So as a Greek word there, so you're doing a false equivocation that the word that says sozo, that somebody is justified.

02:12:14

That's a different category because justification leads to being saved. Those are different categories that I just don't think that the

02:12:23

Church of Christ is able to comprehend very well. Justification leads to being saved.

02:12:30

It's a process. Justification, sanctification, glorification. You're saved in the sight of God.

02:12:37

So yeah, the 23 things are based off the Greek word sozo. How much time

02:12:44

I got left? You got a minute. No, if you just take a quick look at 1

02:12:49

Corinthians, I believe it's 7, where it's talking about the unbelieving spouse being sanctified.

02:12:57

So now, because you got that word sozo and you're playing on it, meaning that they're justified or saved before God, well, that means we now have pagans that are in Christ because they're being sanctified.

02:13:12

So you're being very inconsistent when you bring up words like saved and attribute that to salvation because that's just a poor hermeneutic.

02:13:27

All right, thank you for that. Travis, you got a minute. I think it's a good question.

02:13:33

It's very small because the list that Clint's talking about, I was able to actually pull up a bit bigger on the

02:13:39

YouTube. Most of you guys may be watching this on your phone and you won't be able to see all these things.

02:13:46

But the Bible, and he says the church of Christ, or church of Christ, and I know that they keep saying that Travis, church of Christ.

02:13:53

I'm not church of Christ. I'm not one to say I'm church of Christ. I'm a Christian. I'm a member of the church of Christ. But see, he keeps saying

02:13:59

Travis is church of Christ because he's trying to convince you that I'm in some kind of man -made denomination.

02:14:05

And I'm a member of the church of the Bible. But up there, it says we're saved and it has

02:14:11

God, Jesus Christ. I mean, during our debate, Adam, I said, do you know the definition of alone?

02:14:16

Nothing else. Apparently, he don't know the definition of alone. The Holy Spirit, the grace of God, the mercy of God, the kindness of God, the love of God, the life of Christ.

02:14:26

All of these things listed are involved in salvation. And just read the

02:14:31

Bible and take what the Bible says. Good question. Thank you for that.

02:14:36

Okay, now I'm excited to read this question. This comes from Standing for Truth. I just wanna recommend any of our viewers go check out

02:14:45

Standing for Truth, the YouTube channel. This is actually a debate platform. Has a lot of great content.

02:14:52

Hosts many debates over there. And yours truly, I will be participating in a live debate coming up in December.

02:15:01

I will actually be debating a Lutheran on baptismal regeneration. And we're gonna be examining the

02:15:06

Lutheran doctrine of baptism. So please flow over there to Donnie and check out all the work that he's been doing.

02:15:12

So Donnie has a question. This is Standing for Truth for Travis. He says, question for Travis.

02:15:17

Romans four verse five says, "'But to him who worketh not, but believes, "'his faith is counted for righteousness.'"

02:15:24

And then his question is, isn't that faith alone? The part that says, works not, but has faith.

02:15:31

You have two minutes. All right, Romans four. I'm gonna read one through five there, or one through six.

02:15:40

What shall we say then that Abraham, our father as pertaining to the flesh, hath found was contrasting in chapter two and three, the law of Moses and circumcision.

02:15:51

And these Jews would put Abraham on a high pedestal, right? Father Abraham. And so he says, what does it profit

02:15:59

Abraham pertaining to the flesh? For if Abraham were justified by works, he had were of the glory, but not before God.

02:16:09

And in verse three, "'For what saith the scripture, "'Abraham believed God, "'and it was accounted to him for righteousness.'"

02:16:15

And that's Genesis 15 six. We've already went through this in the debate. Now, "'To him that worketh is the reward "'not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

02:16:25

"'But to him that worketh not, "'but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, "'his faith is counted for righteousness.'"

02:16:33

What is he talking about? He's talking about like what I've been saying. So he's not saying here, he doesn't say, but to him that worketh is the reward not, no, now to him that worketh obeying the gospel, he's not saying that.

02:16:48

He's talking about a person who relies on their works, thinking they're gonna earn or merit salvation by being perfect.

02:16:57

You're not gonna do that. As I've already said, it's a faith which worketh by love. Actually, that's what

02:17:02

Paul says. And so it's referring to the man who relies solely on law keeping, you're gonna fail.

02:17:11

And guess what? When you fail, you're gonna be lost because you need grace and you need the blood of Jesus.

02:17:17

But Paul here is not saying don't obey the gospel. Don't obey what Jesus says to do be saved.

02:17:23

He's dealing with Judaizers. So that is the context. And I hope you understand that.

02:17:30

If you don't, come on my show afterwards and we'll study more. All right, Adam, what do you think?

02:17:39

If we just look at Romans 4, 9, it says in this blessing, then only for the circumcised or also for the uncircumcised, for we say faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness.

02:17:53

How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he was circumcised of the law?

02:17:59

Before or after? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. Before did any works of the law.

02:18:04

And that's why when we catapult up to Genesis 22, then we're talking about works at all because a work of offering his son

02:18:12

Isaac up as an offering, those are qualified as works, anything he does.

02:18:19

So Paul is touching base on both and Travis is kind of plating both of them together.

02:18:24

He's talking about works of the law, being circumcised or works at all, offering the son up as a sacrifice.

02:18:31

He's talking about two distinct things there. All right, thank you for that.

02:18:37

Now, this question is from Anomaly. The question is for Adam. So you'll have two minutes to respond to this.

02:18:43

I think this is a good question. What do you believe the relationship between faith and works are essentially?

02:18:52

That is a good question. Like kind of hounded online is faith flows from the heart.

02:19:00

It can't be from a heart of sin, as Jeremiah 17, nine says, a corrupt heart.

02:19:06

We gotta have a new heart. So yes, we're justified by that regenerative faith given by God and that produces works.

02:19:16

So it's like when you go to a baseball game and they swing a baseball bat and they hit a ball.

02:19:23

Well, what hit first? The ball hit the bat first or the bat hit the ball first?

02:19:29

So then we're gonna fall into logical priority and temporal priority. So that's how they work together.

02:19:34

Faith is logically flows from regeneration and works flows from faith, if that makes any sense at all.

02:19:42

All righty, thank you for that. And Travis, you got a minute. Okay, well,

02:19:53

I can answer mine. I don't wanna relate much to what Adam said. He said a lot and I don't wanna misrepresent anything that he said, but I think we can say that I'm not promoting a work system.

02:20:08

I'm not promoting works alone. I'm not promoting works of the law of Moses.

02:20:16

But now with the argument of Romans chapter four, he said, Paul is not saying now to him that obeys the gospel is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

02:20:30

He's not saying that, okay? Romans starts out with obedience. As I said,

02:20:35

Romans 1 5, Romans 2 8, but to those who are self -seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness.

02:20:44

Paul, the apostle is not saying disobey. I mean, that you don't have to do anything there.

02:20:50

He's dealing with Judaizers. Did my time run out? Yeah, you can finish that last thought though.

02:20:56

Well, it's a faith which works by love. All right. Thank you for that.

02:21:02

Hey, from your favorite fishbone best friend, Travis. Trey says this,

02:21:08

Travis, since you brought me up, can you please explain this verse? Ezekiel 36 27, and I will put my spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

02:21:21

What do you have to say to your best friend, Trey Fisher? Well, I love

02:21:28

Trey. He's a brother in Christ. I wish he would repent, but in Ezekiel 36, and I guess

02:21:35

I could put it on the PowerPoint slide here. I don't have the time, but I can do it for the after show.

02:21:41

He says, for I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries and bring you into your own land.

02:21:47

Then I will sprinkle clean water on you and you shall be clean. I will cleanse you from your filthiness and from all your idols.

02:21:56

I will give you a new heart. Do you know who else had a new heart? Saul. If you look at 1

02:22:02

Samuel 10 and chapter 15, not

02:22:07

Samuel, but Saul had a new heart, but in the book of Samuel, I might've said that. It's been going on a while.

02:22:13

He says, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you. I will take your heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

02:22:23

I will put my spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statues and you will keep my judgments and do them.

02:22:31

Well, if he's just talking about, is he making them or are they going to have free will to obey him?

02:22:36

Because if that's the case, then why are you guys still debating this? Why don't we just sit around and wait for God to make

02:22:42

Travis believe in faith only? Because in Ezekiel 36, verse four, it says, hear the word.

02:22:47

They had to hear that. He's telling them what is going to happen called foreknowledge. And he was going to do that by them keeping his commandments.

02:22:56

In Matthew six, verse 11, Jesus talks about give us our bread, our daily bread.

02:23:02

Well, God gives us that, but we have to go out and do something for it. We got to go to work on Monday.

02:23:08

So this, Trey, is not telling you that you just have to sit around and wait till God makes you.

02:23:15

He was going to cause them to do it by their obedience, by their, they were in Babylon at this time in Ezekiel 36, and they were going to come out of captivity because they were going to obey

02:23:27

God's commandments. Thank you for that, Travis. Adam, you got a minute? Oh, wow.

02:23:35

That is a great question there for you to formulate there.

02:23:40

Ezekiel, that's beautiful. I mean, that's what we call a regenerative heart that God does.

02:23:46

And I mean, I would have kind of taught it to Jeremiah 31 covenant.

02:23:51

We see that pouring into the covenant in Christ. And Travis keeps on thinking that anybody can just come on to Christ so free willy nilly by hearing the gospel.

02:24:05

So we're kind of running into a false understanding of what the gospel actually means. It's the power of God unto salvation to those who believe in the

02:24:13

Greek is possible to do on one. It's not to all people.

02:24:19

Yeah, I check my work in Romans 1, 17 or 18.

02:24:26

So yeah, Ezekiel passages is a great one to try to defend. Thank you for that.

02:24:31

Travis, we'll try to wrap up here in about another five minutes or so. We got some more questions. I love the input that y 'all are giving back and forth.

02:24:40

Shane asked another question and he wants to ask the apologetic dog. And I thought, you know what? Let me give a minute response to this.

02:24:46

And I also want a minute response from y 'all. It's a good question. Shane says, just curious. You say you're a pastor.

02:24:52

Do you believe that bishop, pastor, elder all referenced the same office or to different offices just out of curiosity?

02:24:59

So I do think this kind of question, let me borrow this minute from you, Adam. So I do think this is a good question because I do think the church of Christ, but I want to say that charitably the way that Travis is saying.

02:25:12

And so from Travis's perspective, I think this highlights a big difference from how my side of this issue would answer it.

02:25:21

So I do believe this is all referring to the same office. I would actually appeal to a number of passages to do that just off the top of my head.

02:25:29

First Timothy three, Titus chapter one mentions both overseer or bishop and elder in the same context of the same qualifications.

02:25:38

Stronger passages, I would say in Acts 20, we see the elders at Ephesus are called overseers.

02:25:44

They care for, which comes from the Greek word to pastor. And then in first Peter five, you see all three of these descriptions referring to the same office.

02:25:52

And so I think Travis's perspective along with Shane's sees that differently.

02:25:58

So let me pause that time and Travis respond to this type of question for a minute.

02:26:04

Give us your perspective. Well, what did you mean by Shane and Travis believe different?

02:26:12

No, no, no, my bad. I was just, I'm trying to be charitable. We define the term church of Christ differently. So I'm just saying we have a different perspective than the church of Christ, but I don't mean that to misrepresent your understanding.

02:26:24

Well, did I not hear you say, you said you believe it's all the same office? Yes. Oh, well, we do too.

02:26:31

I mean, because that's what the Bible says. And I'll elaborate in Acts 20 verse 17, it says, and from Milantus, he sent to Ephesus and called for the elders of the church.

02:26:40

And then when you keep reading in verse 28, he says, and take he therefore in still same context, yourselves and to all the flock over which the

02:26:51

Holy Ghost had made you overseers. And I think some other translations may use a different word, but overseers, elders, pastors are the same work.

02:27:03

And there's qualifications, oh, now, I think the Holy Spirit gives qualifications. Can I ask you a question within this?

02:27:10

So I need to back up. The thing that I think is the big difference between our position and y 'all's perspective is we see preachers also being pastors, elders, overseers.

02:27:22

And so that's probably the big distinction that we would say in order to be a preacher that's qualified, you would have to also be an elder.

02:27:31

Oh, okay. So I didn't know if you wanted to say something to that. Well, Peter was an elder and he was a preacher.

02:27:41

So you can be a elder and a preacher, but you necessarily don't have to be an elder to be a preacher because the first Timothy chapter three talks about qualifications by the inspired word of God.

02:27:57

And one of those is a bishop must be blameless in the husband of one wife, therefore you must be married.

02:28:05

So what about a young man who's not married? Well, he can preach the gospel, but the qualifications here says to be a bishop, an elder, he has to be married.

02:28:14

So that's the way I would present that as an example. No, I think that's good because we're actually a little bit closer than I thought.

02:28:22

A lot of, I'll just say people that share your perspective have a hard distinction between somebody who is a preacher and an elder.

02:28:32

And I do agree with you, people at church on how we understand things could potentially preach from the pulpit and not be a pastor per se.

02:28:40

So I'm glad to hear your thoughts on that. Adam, would you like to comment on any of that for a minute? No, I think you've done pretty well.

02:28:49

Like I said, I'm just a learner of Christ. So I'm not very equipped to speak on pastors and elders and things like that.

02:28:59

I'm merely a child of God that proclaims the truth of salvation by grace alone, through faith alone.

02:29:06

Well, appreciate that. Let's do one more question. Yeah, this is my last one.

02:29:13

Yeah, this will be the last one. And I wanna get it from Shane again and make sure

02:29:20

I'm getting the right one here. So Shane asked some good questions. And by the way, I listened a little bit to Shane's live feed last night.

02:29:28

Thought he lays out the church of Christ paradigm well, and I mean that charitably, not trying to disparage all sides and qualifications of that.

02:29:37

So thank you, Shane, for tuning in and asking questions and being involved. I do think this is a good question because I participated in a debate earlier this year with Brock Kendall.

02:29:48

I think it was in February. And our whole debate proposition revolved around these two verses right here.

02:29:58

So I think it's awesome because from that debate, that's essentially how I got connected with Travis, some of his reviews of my debate.

02:30:04

And so I have a more appreciation for how y 'all utilize certain verses and how we need to be equipped and to interact with these conversations.

02:30:15

So we will, this is for Adam. So in Romans chapter six, verses 17 and 18, what is the form of doctrine to which they obeyed from the heart that freed them from their sin?

02:30:36

Well, categorically, you're making an error here because like I said in my opening statement, when you hit Romans six, we're talking about sanctification there.

02:30:43

So believing from the heart flows from justification into sanctification. So they were freed from the power of sin, carrying that out in sanctification.

02:30:56

So, I mean, it's, man, I really, let me read it.

02:31:02

But thank be to God of those who were once slaves of sin. I mean, this, even the first part of the verse refutes what y 'all are trying to say.

02:31:11

Man, forgive me for saying y 'all, for y 'all's perspective from saying is in sin, but this prescribes that y 'all were slaves of sin.

02:31:19

We all were before we become obedient from the heart. So we see that heart transplant outpouring, like from the question in 1

02:31:27

Corinthians six, all of that's done by the Holy Spirit, being washed, sanctified, and justified.

02:31:33

That's a work of the Holy Spirit. And so it just, to me, yeah, why complete justification with sanctification?

02:31:42

Now that's a Roman Catholic doctrine right there, because the works I'm talking about is speaking in tongues, being baptized, doing a little altar call, sinner's prayer.

02:31:55

I mean, anything that we exhort energy. So obeying from the heart, that's consistent with Paul's teaching in Romans, but that's speaking of sanctification.

02:32:07

Thank you for that, Adam. Okay, now Travis, you will have the final word, and you have a minute.

02:32:14

Romans 6, 17, but God, we thank you were the servants of sin, but you have obeyed from the heart.

02:32:21

See, that's a sincere obedience. You obeyed, but again, the Calvinist comes right along again, remember? You can't obey.

02:32:28

You have to wait for the spirit to pick you out. You're passive. And then he says, oh, I like your shirt today.

02:32:33

I'm gonna pick you just for that. You're passive. You can't have the free choice to obey, but that's not what this says.

02:32:41

You have obeyed from the heart. What? That form of doctrine that was delivered to you.

02:32:46

Being made free from sin, you became the servants of righteousness. Well, he just says in Romans 6, 3 -7, what was that form?

02:32:58

You know where it was going in the context. No, you not, so many of us were baptized into Christ, have been baptized into his death.

02:33:05

Well, what's in the death of Christ? That is the blood of Jesus. That is where we come in contact with that sacrifice.

02:33:16

Therefore, we were buried with him by baptism into death. How did we die? In baptism.

02:33:22

And in verse seven, for he that is dead is freed from sin.

02:33:28

That freed there, look up the meaning of that. If I'm not mistaken, that's justified. For he that is dead is justified from sin.

02:33:36

King James says freed, and I'm pretty sure it's justified.

02:33:42

And I'll repent if it isn't. It's been a while since I looked at that, but I think it is the word justified, freed.

02:33:49

You're free from sin. That concludes our debate. Y 'all both did a fantastic job.

02:33:55

Thank you for coming on to the Apologetic Dog. Travis, how was it? Was that fair?

02:34:02

Yeah, I figured you would be. Well, hey, just know we love you. We love a lot.

02:34:08

I mean, everyone that was in the comment section that disagrees with us. So maybe we can do this again sometime.

02:34:14

Hopefully this proves to many people that we can have a loving exchange. I know on our own shows, we get kind of fiery.

02:34:21

We like to talk about certain clips and plan, but that goes both ways. That's what we do on my side of things.

02:34:29

Thank y 'all for being on the show. Do y 'all have any final thoughts? Adam, do you want to say something? Yeah, I just want to let him be corrected on 618 there, having been set free.

02:34:40

That's not diakosune. That's a different word.

02:34:46

It just means to be set free. There are categorically different Greek words there for different contexts.

02:34:53

You're talking about Acts 13, I believe 48, where it says freed, and it's got forgiveness of sins in Christ in Acts 13.

02:35:04

I believe it's maybe 36, but yeah, freed in Acts 13 is justified, but here it's not.

02:35:12

I love it. What verse did you say? For justified, that's Acts 13. Should be like 26.

02:35:18

No, what verse did you say? Did I say that it was justified? Yeah, you just got through saying that you would repent if it wasn't justified.

02:35:25

Which verse? Yeah, the Romans 6 verse that you just quoted. I quoted two, is what

02:35:32

I'm saying. Was it verse 17 and 18 or seven? 17 and 18, where you said been freed from sin.

02:35:43

Okay. And that word's a different word. It's a letter throughout. It's a different word than diakosune.

02:35:49

I actually said verse seven, but all right. All right, y 'all are still in debate mode. I love it.

02:35:54

Nah. Join the after show. Hi, maybe. I have a wife at home, but that's okay.

02:36:04

It probably won't be too long. But hey, I wanna let y 'all give any final words to the audience. Once again, thank y 'all so much for being on the

02:36:10

Apologetic Dog and debating. Does the scripture teach that we're justified by faith alone?

02:36:16

Adam, do you wanna say any final thoughts? Yeah, you were right.

02:36:21

I looked at verse seven there. It does say that word is justified there in verse seven.

02:36:30

Thank you though, Travis, for being cordial. Like I said, this is my first debate and I look forward to continuing this on.

02:36:37

Thank you. Many more to come, right? Oh yeah. Well, thank you so much,

02:36:43

Adam. Travis, do you wanna end with anything? You've been talking about the after show. Can people go to your

02:36:48

YouTube channel to find that? Yeah, of course, it'd be on Truth with Proof. Well, I thank

02:36:55

Adam too. You know, a lot of people are not willing to open to discuss and I got up here at 2

02:37:02

Timothy 2, 24. It says, and the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone able to teach.

02:37:09

Well, I know instances where Jesus was very firm and passionate with false teachers, but I can't read your heart and I have to always work on too being patient and I hope that I wasn't too aggressive.

02:37:24

I wanna press my point. And... You did great in that book.

02:37:31

You're doing real good. And for people in the chat, I want you guys to think about some of the comments in the chat.

02:37:38

I think you guys are misunderstanding some of the things I said. I just read something about where I have a misunderstanding that God is passive.

02:37:44

I'm not talking about God passive, I'm talking about us passive. So sometimes people get misunderstood on things.

02:37:50

So just, if you're not sure, just ask, right? It don't hurt, Jeremiah.

02:37:58

If you think I'm saying something, then just ask me. Yep, ask him. Go join the after party, the after show and get some clarification.

02:38:07

Well, all right, fellas. You guys have a good night. Thank y 'all so much. You too, thanks Travis. See you, Adam. All right.

02:38:14

Well, I just wanna thank everybody for tuning in to the Apologetic Dog. I just wanna just end with some of the announcements to look forward to.

02:38:22

The episode of Trey, Fisher and myself being on Coltish is gonna be released January 24th.

02:38:28

Please be on the lookout for that, where we talked about examining the

02:38:34

Church of Christ. So there's a lot, and that's gonna be a follow -up to Trey's first episode with them.

02:38:40

And then we have Dr. James White coming to town to 12 .5 Church. It's gonna be awesome.

02:38:46

We're gonna be talking about the same topic. Dr. White's gonna be teaching on justification by faith alone.

02:38:52

You don't wanna miss that. That content will eventually be on my channel here. And the last announcement that I forgot to announce towards the very beginning is a

02:39:03

Standing for Truths debate coming up that I will be on in December.

02:39:10

I believe it's December 13th. I need to make sure I know that for sure, but I'm gonna be debating a Lutheran on baptismal regeneration, and I'm looking forward to that.