Faith Alone DEBATE! Adam Carmichael vs Travis Thomas

Introduction and Ministry Announcements

Hello and welcome to The Apologetic Dog. This channel is an apologetics ministry and the verse that I really wanna ground the ministry in is 1 Timothy 6 .20 that talks about guarding the deposit that's been entrusted to us.

So that would be the gospel deposit. And we do so by avoiding irreverent babble, pagan philosophy that kind of cloaks itself within the true gospel and God's word. And we also do that by warring against false knowledge that really contradicts itself.

And so I'm really excited to have all of you tuning in this evening and watching a very special episode. And so I just wanna tell you right before we get into it that I also serve as a pastor and elder at 12 Five Church that comes from a Bible verse, Romans 12 verse five that says, though we are individually one of another, we are one together in the body of Christ.

And so at 12 Five Church, we're located in Northeast Arkansas, specifically Jonesboro, Arkansas. So if you're in the area, we'd love for you to come and visit us and see what our fellowship is like. And if you would like to see any of our teaching series or preaching series, you can find us at 12fivechurch .com.

That's the word 12, the number fivechurch .com. And so before we get more into our special episode, I have a few announcements that I would love for y 'all to be aware of. Coming up just around the corner, we are having Dr. James White come to 12 Five Church.

He's gonna be talking on the very topic that we are gonna be getting into today, justification by faith alone. And so this will be on December 5th and it'll be at 6 p .m. And so if you're in the area and you'd love to join us for that, please reach out to me or Pastor Nathan Hargrave because we have limited seats.

So we need to make sure that we have your name, we have it reserved for you and it's a free event. So Dr. White is coming to town again. He was here last year and talked about the Trinity and he talked about reformed theology.

So can't wait for that. That is just around the corner. Another announcement I have is coming up in January, I believe it's January 24th, Trey Fisher and I, we were on the Cultish Podcast. And so that episode will actually be launching in January 24th where we got to examine, talk about the Church of Christ.

And so what is so neat about these two announcements is our special episode today has both of these concepts, justification by faith alone and the Church of Christ coming together in a battle royale. So we're actually having a debate this evening between Travis Thomas and Adam Carmichael.

How are y 'all doing this evening?

Doing well.

Good, how are you doing?

Good, well, I was just talking with Travis earlier. I'm so glad to have you live and in person this time, rather than our typical communication where we do video reviews of one another, if I can put it like that.

That's right. Yeah, well.

Glad to be here with you guys.

Yeah, we're gonna have a good, fun evening. It's gonna be respectful. We really want to communicate clearly and respectfully for the sake of the audience, right? Both sides here, we are very passionate about what we believe.

And so I want to give you a moment, beginning with Adam, you are the affirmative. If you would, please tell us a little bit about who you are, some more information about you, where people can contact you, things like that.

Adam.

Well, there ain't a whole lot to say. I'm a grateful believer in Jesus Christ. And like I said, I used to be a heathen, like big time. Drug addiction, I mean, everything that went with that lifestyle.

And a little over five years ago, God rescued me. And that's how I can affirm the proposition of nine because I wasn't seeking after God. And he broke me down through scripture and I saw my sin for how he saw sin.

So I think that's gonna be the categorically distinction in how we view things is how we see sin. But yeah, I'm happily married to Tori Carmichael, my wife, that we are being continually sanctified through the word of God.

And I was in this fallen world. We were drawn, well, I was drawn to 12th five through the word of God by Pastor Jeremiah's apologetics ministry. I kind of took fond of 1 Peter 3 .15, to revere Christ as Lord in your heart and be fenced for the hope that you have in you.

And man, I just, I latched onto that particular verse and it drew me into watching debates hours and hours. I'm no professional, I'm not an expert. I just love the word of God. And we kind of went to church cross for about three years.

And as I'm digging in scripture and I'm letting all this saturate me through the Holy Spirit and all this stuff, it's not matching up. I mean, every time they baptize somebody, they would quote 1 Peter 3 .21.

And I'm like, man, and then when talking to the pastor, the guy that was doing it, he said, no, well, you don't put your faith in baptism. It's all cross, but you have to be baptized. So I mean, some things just wasn't adding up.

And so I come to 12th five through some struggles because of its location. And like I said, I've been there ever since being sanctified by what God says in his word and not by how we just wanna imply and add things onto it.

So I'm just thankful for it.

We're thankful to have you. You said some kind things towards me and I promise I didn't pay Adam to say that. So man, glad to have you on. And this is your first ever debate to participate in. So this is excited to have you on the Apologetic Dog.

And this is the Apologetic Dog second debate. So I'm really excited to have both of y 'all. Now, Travis, who are you? Where can people find your ministry? Tell us about yourself.

All right, well, of course, my name's Travis Thomas. I am not Church of Christ. That's kind of, you can't be Church of Christ. I'm a member of the Church of Christ. I'm a Christian based upon the obedience of the gospel, the grace of God, what he's revealed through his testimony of the written word.

I had submitted to his will in obedience to what he has said and made me a Christian. I'm not nothing else. I'm not a Baptist, a Mormon, a Jehovah Witness, Church of Christ. I'm a Christian. I'm a member of the Church of Christ.

I preach currently. I've only preached for two congregations in the Lord's Church. I preach currently at Montrose and Defeated Creek area in Smith County, Tennessee. I have a YouTube program called Truth with Proof.

And right after this, I'm gonna go live on it approximately about eight, maybe 8 .30. So if some of you guys have questions that you didn't get to ask and we didn't get to answer or you feel like I didn't answer them the way that you feel like that I should have, you can join in the after show.

I'm gonna review the debate tonight. I appreciate Jeremiah for allowing me to come on his broadcast. And Adam did ask me, he challenged me to debate this and he accepted the proposition of, are we justified by faith alone?

And I accepted that. I would not accepted the proposition are we justified by faith, but he didn't ask that. So I appreciate those guys for allowing me to come on and defend the truth of the gospel.

Absolutely. Well, thank you for clarifying a lot of that and being a guest on here. Maybe we'll be able to do this again in the future, God willing. So I'm excited. I just wanna go over some ground rules with y 'all.

The proposition, hopefully everybody can see clearly on the screen. Scripture teaches justification by faith alone. So Adam is taking the affirmative. So he's actually going to be defending this proposition and Travis is gonna be taking the negative saying how he does not think that that is actually true and supported.

And so as we go through, we're gonna have 15 minute opening statements where we're gonna get to take turns with that. And we'll even have, if you have PowerPoints or things like that, you can bring up.

Then we'll transition once both people have 15 minute openings, we're gonna have 10 minute rebuttals a piece and then we'll have a brief five minute intermission. And then we'll get to the fun stuff where everybody's favorite part of debate is the cross examination.

And so we're gonna do things kind of different there. We're gonna have it set up to where you can ask your question. If you're leading questions for the first 20 minutes, it'll be up to a minute. And then the interlocutor has up to two minutes response.

And so you'll see, hopefully everybody will be able to see clearly what is going on there. And when you have a minute left in your time, you will hear this noise. Okay, so that's important just to kind of give you a heads up that your time is winding down.

And if you have a little, if you go a little bit over your time, you know, just close out that thought and that is no problem whatsoever. And so with that being said, we're gonna start with Adam Carmichael.

And so I just have one last thing to say. All right, so Travis will be in the top left corner. You get a little audience going on, Adam. So we don't see Travis right now. I see a computer screen, but hopefully he will come back when his time is ready.

But Adam, when you are ready, just begin to speak and I will start your little timer there, countdown for you.

Adam Carmichael’s Opening: Adam, Romans 3, and Justification by Faith

First, we're gonna look at Genesis account where we see the fall of mankind, specifically Adam to show that there was actually a fall. We must say that everything that God created was good. So in Genesis 131, it is written, and God saw everything that he had made and behold, it was very good.

In my opening, I'm going to let scripture dictate and navigate my thoughts to show that scripture speaks clearly on the matter of Adam being covenant head, the one responsible for all that is under him.

In Genesis 3, one, now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the Lord God had made. He said, did God actually say, you shall not eat up any tree in the garden? And the woman said to the serpent, eat of the fruit of the tree in the trees in the garden.

But God said, you shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that's in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, at least you die. But the serpent said, to not surely die, for God knows that when you eat of it, your eyes will be open and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.

So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food and it was a delight to the eyes and that the tree was desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit and ate. And she also gave some to her husband who was with her and he ate.

Then the eyes of both they knew they were naked. Notice that after Adam ate the fruit, the effects of sin spread. In verse seven, it says that after Adam ate, then their eyes were open, indicating Adam as the head of the house or its representative.

Remember that God gave him all authority as we see that the second Adam, Jesus, also was given all authority when he fulfilled the law of God, then he was crucified and rose again on the third day. He did what the first Adam was unable to do.

Just to be clear up to this point, I've only brought your attention to what scripture has already said. If there's something that I said that is not there in the text, you can address that in your rebuttal.

Moving on to chapter three of Romans. What then? Are we any better? Are Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks are under sin. As it is written, none is righteous.

No, not one. No one understands. No one seeks after God. All have turned aside. Together, they have become worthless. No one does good, not even one. Paul continues on about the sinfulness of mankind up to verse 18.

For time's sake, I'm gonna summarize. Let's check my work to make sure that I'm held accountable for that. As we see in verse 10 through 12, Paul is making the point of the universality of sin across the board.

Then in verses 13 and 14, Paul focuses on the sins of speech. Then in 15 through 17, he sets forth sins of violence against others. Then in verse 18, Paul returns to where he begins, that there's not even a basic regard for God.

All has made no distinction up to this point that the all is specific in its understanding. Both Jews and Gentiles, everyone stands guilty before a holy God. We see in, this is a courtroom is starting to fill up.

In verses 19 and 20, it says, now we know that whatever the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law. So that every mouth might be stopped or shut, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.

For by works of the law, no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. Unless we are not under the law, Travis is gonna have to tell you that sin is not that bad.

Let me tell you folks, sin is a crime against a holy God. Scripture says that all have sinned, but that argument was presented and concluded in chapter three, nine through 20. Before we continue, the definition for a couple of words, so that you will see how I come up with my conclusion in the proposition of justification by faith, alone, by itself, only.

Justified, along with its other forms when used in different sentence structures like just, justify, and justification. They mean to render a favorable verdict, to vindicate action done by God to restore the guilty into a right standing with him.

Second one's faith is to entrust oneself to an entity in complete confidence, believe in, trust with the implication of total commitment to the one who is trusted. God and Christ are the objects of this type of faith.

Then propitiation, it's an appeasement necessitated by sin, specifically an instrument for appeasing a sin offering. Now let's go to Romans 3, 21. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it.

The righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe, for there is no distinction for all have sinned in the glory of God and are justified by his grace as a gift through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood to be received by faith.

This was to show God's righteousness because in his divine forbearance, he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time that he might be the just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Before we enter into the courtroom, you must be aware of the charges brought up against you, which Paul and other scriptures quoted up to this point demonstrated, all are guilty before a holy God. How can we appease God being, as Paul said, sinners?

According to Romans 3, 21 through 26, the payment for the acquittal was paid in full by Christ as a propitiation. How that is received is stated clearly in Romans 3, 25, by faith. In Romans 3, 26, again, God alone is the just and the justifier.

What does this even mean, God being the just and the justifier? Scripture teaches that the justifier is one in authority, a judge. We can see in Deuteronomy 25, if there is a dispute between men and they come into a court and the judges decide between them acquitting the innocent and condemning the guilty, unless you can demonstrate that that has changed in scripture, we will apply it to this section.

This is courtroom talk. Justification is a forensic action. We are not made righteous. It means that we are declared righteous. This is what God does for believers in justification. What a judge does in a court of law, he does not change the defendant by turning him or her into a new kind of person.

Rather, he declares the defendant in the seat. Not against him or her. Justification is a legal declaration placed in the right standing by the judge, declaring people innocent in his sight. Therefore, justification by faith can be the only logical and biblical way that a guilty man will ever be forgiven by God.

Unless Travis is denying what scripture has said, they all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Establish that no work by the law would justify a person. Now he points to Abraham, the patriarch in chapter four.

What shall we say then, was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh. For if Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about, but not before God. Well, what does the scripture say?

Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness. Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift, but his due. And to the one who does not work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.

Just as David also speaks of the blessing to the one who God counts righteousness apart from works. Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are because of the man against whom the Lord will not count sin.

Paul is using Abraham to show that if he was justified by works, it would be not before God. For what does the scripture say? Abraham believed God, or had faith in God, and it, faith, was counted to him as righteousness.

But to the one who works, as anything to the finished work of Christ, his wages are not counted as grace. His efforts alone will be his reward. Paul goes on to say that the one that does not work, but believes or has faith in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.

It's clear that the scripture is telling us that God alone justifies the ungodly, but my opponent is gonna try to tell you that somehow you were never ungodly. Sin isn't that bad. You're a good person.

The verdict is in. Apostle Paul renders it not guilty. You have been justified by faith. You now have peace with God. Through him, we have attained access by faith into grace which we stand. The love of God has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who he has given us.

It goes on to say that while we were still weak at the right time, Christ died for the ungodly. In scripture contrast, the two covenants heads in Romans 5, 12 through 21. I'm just gonna summarize for time's sake.

Sin comes through one man, Adam, and death through sin. Death spread to all men because all sin. Sin was in the world before the law, but sin is not counted where there is no law. How can this be? From Adam to Moses, death reigned with no law.

How can this be possibly see that original sin is rejected? Romans 6, 23 says that the wages of sin is death, but now we look at the new covenant. The covenant head is Christ. Justification for all those who have faith and the one who justifies the ungodly.

They will boast in Christ alone for their salvation. I have five points of conclusion that I wanna focus on. Again, this is one to show that everything God created was good. Then the fall of mankind happened after the man ate the fruit.

This was to show that Adam was the covenant head over all creation. From the scriptures I started in my opening, it's plain to see the corruption spread after this. Denying this, the consistencies will lead your theology.

Then, second point, then in Romans 3, 9 -20, Paul brought charges against the whole world. That adjective whole is put on there for a reason. It means everybody who will be held accountable to God because we know that all are under the law so that we will not be able to speak a word of defense.

How can a guilty man acquit himself from the wrath of our holy God? Well, the text says how? Through faith in the one who justifies the ungodly. Third point, Paul presented the courtroom appearance. It spoke of the law and the prophets brought to the stand and bore witness that the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe that all who believe are in contrast with the ones that all that sin.

There's no distinction meaning both Jew and Gentile alike. No one escapes courtroom appearance that is clear from scripture. People are justified by his grace as a gift in the propitiation of the blood of Christ to be received by faith.

Fourth point is in chapter four of Romans, scripture says Abraham was credited as righteous when he believed. If Abraham was justified by works, he would have a boast in himself. But no, if that was the case, his wages are not counted as gift, but his dues.

We see the one who has faith in him, Christ, who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness. Fifth point, then we heard the verdict. We have been justified by faith. We have peace with God.

And it goes on to contrast the two covenant heads. We are either in Adam or in Christ. We are in Christ by his finished work on the cross by faith. The reason I'm gonna stop here in chapter five of Romans in my opening is that we're talking about justification where farther we would drift into sanctification.

So I really wanna stay focused on the topic, justification, not sanctification. I yield my time.

Bam, good timely manner. So I just wanna take a moment to tell the audience, start asking your questions in the chat. We're gonna have an audience Q &A at the end. I'm really looking forward to that. We'd love to get y 'all's interaction.

And if you would preface your question with question, and so I can search that word and then easily it all is organized. So audience, please get your questions down, send those in before the end. And now Travis, you will have 15 minutes for your opening statement.

And I believe that you have a PowerPoint, is that right?

Yeah.

Okay, so your PowerPoint is up. And as soon as you begin speaking, I will start your 15 minute timer.

Travis Thomas’s Opening: Faith Only, Obedience, and the Law of Moses

All right, my proposition is to denying faith alone. What Adam and what many other people have done, and they continue to fail, is to find the scriptures of faith alone. We're gonna look here. Most people, all right, that's what you're dealing with today is people are preconceived.

They're preconceived of an opinion based off of no reason. And that's what we're talking about tonight. He did not find faith only, all right? And I'm going to deny that tonight very easily. Now, we may have people in the chat, and they may ask, why don't we even debate this?

Why don't we discuss it? Well, as you can see in Mark 7, 7 through 8, Jesus talks to about the Pharisees and the Jews about traditions of men. Say, you only have two sources of authority. It's either from God or from man.

And we have God's book. And if you can't see it and see it taught, it's not in there, then it came from man. So this doctrine of faith only being justified is from man. And 2 John 1, 9, it says, whosoever transgressed, this is Adam, and all the other ones who ever believed this, not talking about Adam in Genesis, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ has not God, all right?

That's why this is very important to debate. Revelation 22, 18 through 19, for I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, if any man shall add unto these things, adding alone, all right?

God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book. Any man shall take away from the words of this book, of this prophecy, God shall take away his part. So this is serious. All right, now he did end.

How did I know he was gonna end? Well, I know these guys. They find one verse, just like many denominational people, and they just cherry pick that verse. That's all they remember, one verse, one verse.

All right, Romans 5, 1. Therefore being justified by faith. Well, as I say it, if he would have said, do you want to deny we're justified by faith? I wouldn't have accepted that proposition, all right?

But he says alone, and he only said it a couple times. We'll review on truth with proof that he said that we're justified by faith alone. That is what he's promoting. Again, therefore being justified by faith alone.

That's what he's adding to the word of God, all right? So, faith alone, a fallacy of faith alone. Faulty reasoning or unsound argument. Now, he made a lot of bad arguments about what I teach, and man, he apparently never heard me preach about sin, and I play with sin, and I know the congregation where I preach at know that I don't play around with sin.

But one thing that I don't think he quite understands, Colossians 2 .14 says the law was nailed to the cross, all right? Ephesians 2 .15 talks about it's abolished. Hebrews 9 .16 and 17 says that we're not under the old covenant, all right?

We're under a new covenant. So, first off, all the verses he's saying that we're not going to be justified by the law, I agree with that. I don't teach we're under the law of Moses, okay? But we are, as Romans says, we're under the law of faith, all right?

So, we're going to allow the word of God to define faith alone. We're going to have to use the Bible, and we're going to have to allow God, all right? So, this is it, all right? This is it. Maybe Adam hadn't seen this before.

Let God speak, okay? This is what I'm saying by this. Let me define faith alone. Faith alone is when you hear the word of God, you repent of your sins, you believe Jesus is the Christ, He raised from the dead, He died on the cross, I'm willing to confess He is Lord, I'm willing to be baptized.

See? We're justified by faith alone. Now, you would look at me and be like, what? That's the way you define faith alone? Well, let's just allow God to define faith alone, all right? He says in James 2 .17, even so faith, if it has not works, it's dead being alone.

That's what the inspired writer James says out of the word of God. It is a dead faith, all right? So, Adam thinks that saving faith, faith alone is a dead faith. He's going to have to. Now, he can put all kinds of man's, it's trusting and believing, but God says faith alone is a dead faith.

All right, guys? That's what the Bible says. And as you can see, that's why I like the PowerPoint, because I want people to see what the Bible says, not my opinion or what I think. Okay, when man gets to explain what faith alone is, this is it.

You can see. In Romans 5 .1, therefore, having been justified by faith. Now, the Calvinist and Baptist and other ones, they're all basically the same.

Sad. I love them.

I love them enough to try to teach them, but they got to lay aside their man-made tradition. See, they're like the Jews. This is what they just brainwashed in their minds. It says, therefore, having been justified by faith alone, and God explains it, look at the very bottom.

Therefore, being justified by a dead faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. That is what Adam is promoting. He's promoting, as God says, faith alone is a dead faith. And I'm pretty sure Paul wasn't going around in Romans 5 .1 saying we're justified by a dead faith.

But see, Adam and all the Calvinists say faith alone. God defines faith alone. It's a dead faith. And he really lacks understanding the context of Romans, what Paul is dealing with, Judaizer teachers, and they're trying to push circumcision and binding the law of Moses.

And I have that too on my YouTube if you want to go check that out. So Calvinists are actually trying to earn salvation. They'll try to turn around and use these bad arguments because I'm going to obey God.

I'm going to obey what he says to do to be saved. And he talks about the Holy Spirit in Acts 5 .32, I remember. And we'll review him later. He says, and we are a witness to these things. So is the Holy Ghost whom God has given to those who obey him.

And Adam would be trying to promote that he somehow has the Holy Ghost, Holy Spirit. So they're trying to earn salvation. Remember that they're trying to earn it. How are they trying to earn it? They're coming up with their own doctrine.

You see, when you do what the Bible says, you're not trying to earn it, Luke 17 .10. You're just doing what you're told. You're just a servant. Well, they do believe they're depraved. And if you see, you know, my YouTube, look, I got a playlist called Calvinist Stop Teaching.

You're going to see these guys contradict themselves. And the questions, we're going to ask questions like, can even anyone even in the chat actually learn the truth from this? Or do you have to have some kind of operation directly God changing your nature?

We got Adam that's depraved. We got Jeremiah that's depraved. And you're going to actually listen to these depraved men telling you that we're saved by faith alone. All right, if you went to a doctor and a doctor says, take three pills, and you went to another doctor, said, oh, you just take one.

Well, which one are you going to listen to? You're going to take it all. And that's what I'm trying to convince you guys that you must do all of God's word, obey his will, all right? Now, look here. He failed, all right?

He failed to find the verse. One verse. You would think God, if he was going to say we're justified by faith alone, he would have had enough foreknowledge to know to put that in his Bible when these inspired writers wrote it down.

From Genesis to the book of Revelation, you don't find faith alone. And I don't know how these guys think obedience is not required to be saved. When it very first starts out in Genesis chapter three with Adam, why did he fall?

Because he disobeyed, see? That's why, all right? You have to be faithful and obey what God says. And as you can see there, if any man speak, let him speak from the oracles of God. I love Adam. I wish he would repent and actually return to the Lord's church.

He's going to have to lay aside his pride. I don't know what all happened, all right? He began to tell that in his introduction. But he didn't find one verse. You're not going to find the verse, all right?

In a minute, I might repent of that. I might find the verse for you, if you know what I'm saying.

All right.

So faith, we have the definition, or pistis, persuasion. A strong persuasion. We see the definition. By extension, the system of religious, the gospel truth, depending on where it is in the Bible, all right?

It could just mean like Christianity, the system, as you see, or trusting. Now these guys will say, you got to trust, trust, trust. And here's what I'm getting at. They'll say you have to believe that Jesus died.

He rose from the dead and he ascended to heaven and he died on the cross for your sins and you put your trust and faith in what he did. Well friends, I'm telling you to put your trust and faith in what he said to do, all right?

Yeah, you got to believe those things. See, they say a little bit. Sounds good. They're like a car salesman. But you've got to do what the Lord says. Why do you call me Lord, Lord, and not do the things which I say?

Luke six, and we'll get to Luke six later on in presentation. All right, let's see here. What is the opposite of believing, all right? In John chapter three, verse 36, it says, he that believeth on the son hath eternal life, but he that obeyeth not, see the contrast?

The biblical way of understanding faith is by obeying by faith, okay?

By obedience.

But he that obeyeth not the son shall not see his life. These guys say, no, you don't have to obey God. When he says, when he attaches a baptism on a salvation passage like Mark 16, 16, he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, all right?

You have to obey. See, I trust Jesus so much, Adam, that when he says he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, I trust him. I'm going to obey that, and I believe other people who are baptized for the remission of sins, like those people are saved.

Now, who are you, or who is anyone else to come along and say, you know what? I think it says he that believeth is saved and will be baptized later. No, no, you, see, you don't believe Jesus. You're disobedient.

Now, here's where they fail, Calvinists do. They remove all work. See, I've had them call in my show, and they even think that confessing with your mouth is a work. You know, I wonder if even these Calvinists, kind of like most people in society who just want to live off the government and not work, because they think it's so bad.