August 5, 2016 Show with Lynn K. Wilder on “Unveiling Grace: The Story of How We Found Our Way Out of the Mormon Church”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

00:15

Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors

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Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour

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And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions

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Now here's our host Chris Arnton a

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Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy Friday on this fifth day of August 2016 and I'm so delighted to have for the very first time on my program.

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Dr. Lynn K Wilder who is a former Mormon who converted by the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ to biblical

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Christianity and we're going to be discussing her book today unveiling grace the story of how we found our way out of the

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Mormon Church and There's a lot of interesting things about my guest background

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Dr. Lynn K Wilder is a wife mother grandmother scholar and author with a doctorate in education

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During more than a decade as a professor and researcher and 20 years as a public school teacher she has produced more than 50 scholarly publications written for books and mentored hundreds of students her experience passion and expertise lie in how to advance the academic and socio -emotional success of Marginalized students who struggle in school once tenured faculty at Mormon Church owned and operated

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Brigham Young University Commonly known as BYU. Dr. Wilder resigned from BYU and then from the

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LDS Church, which is the Latter -day Saints She resigned from the LDS Church in 2008 when she experienced a crisis of faith

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She currently teaches at Florida Gulf Coast University Speaks writes and ploys time with seven much -loved vivacious grandchildren and our guest was raised as a

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Protestant Christian and she and her husband Michael joined the

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Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints and Accepted the gospel according to Mormon Church founder

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Joseph Smith as a young married couple They were looking for a church home when the

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Mormon missionaries knocked on their door in Indiana in 1977 and Mike and Lynn had no children at the time and immediately dove into a life of active participation with their new church family for 30 years

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Michael and Lynn were Temple recommend holding active members of the Mormon Church and held numerous

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Leadership positions eventually they had four children all of whom were faithful and active in the

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LDS Church like their parents The three oldest children's sons served missions in Russia Denmark and Florida Respectively before their missions the sons had served at stake youth leaders

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Seminary president and their third son Micah Worked in the temple their daughter held leadership positions as well.

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They all bore testimony of Christ often in church and were sincere and Contented members of the

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LDS Church the Wilders moved from Indiana to Utah in 1999 When Lynn finished her doctorate and was hired at BYU Mike established a business in Utah and the family continued to serve their church in the perfect Mormon life then in 2006

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Everything changed and we're gonna be hearing that whole story in more detail And I thank you so much for joining us today for the very first time an iron sharpens iron.

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Dr. Lynn Kay Wilder Thank you Chris, it's wonderful to be on You know the stories that God puts together.

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No one could make up Not make this stuff up. So it's really kind of fun to get the opportunity to Tell what

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God's capable of and this one's a wild one Well, you have a very appropriate last name now

05:14

Absolutely Well, I from what I was just reading off of your website you were raised in a

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Protestant Christian home If you could let our listeners know What kind specifically of a

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Protestant Christian home that was because obviously as you know Protestantism is a very wide spectrum of people some of whom even many

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Christians would Not count among their brothers in Christ, so you have all different kinds of people calling themselves

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Protestant But what was the situation where you were raised? My parents took us to church every week it was a

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Most of the time when I was growing up, they were going to a Presbyterian Church sometimes to a to a

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Methodist Church But I don't recall ever ever Opening the

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Word of God outside of that church you would be really interested to know that the

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Pew Institute says that more than 80 % of people who convert to Mormonism Come right out of biblical

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Christianity just like I did People that when offered this

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Mormon gospel by their friends or by Mormon missionaries accepted as a anti -christian option and that's exactly where my husband and I were he was raised

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Baptist And I'd been raised Presbyterian, but we did not know

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The word and I could not articulate for you the gospel of Jesus Christ it was more of a cultural thing probably something

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I felt that we needed to do and So you were a young married couple

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By the time you had this encounter with Mormon missionaries

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What was it about what they said and about what you had learned at the time about?

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the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints that found You so spellbound if you will got you so and you and your husband

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Michael got you so excited and enthusiastic That led you to eventually join this organization

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Well, you know as a young married couple we wanted to find a church

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We kind of wanted to have a family and have some kind of moral stability right in our family so Mike and I were kind of trying this church and trying that church and they seemed honestly a little bit stuffy and Not being saved at the time.

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We just didn't connect very well But I started doing a correspondence course, you know back in those days

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They would send me a packet and I would fill it out and send it back and this was a correspondence course where I was learning about the

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Bible so I started with the Old Testament and I remember going through the

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Old Testament and thinking oh My goodness when I get to Ezekiel 37

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Jerusalem and you know, Israel have come back to her homeland. That's like a major Fulfilling of this prophecy at least that's what it looked like to me at the time and so I'm thinking

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I'm really interested in this idea of last days You know this latter -day thing because I'm reading about some of this that looks to me like Some of this might be being fulfilled, right?

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So when the Mormon missionaries come to the door their badges say the

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Church of Jesus Christ of latter -day saints, which of course is the

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King James version of last days and They told us they were the experts on latter days.

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They knew all about them and that kind of was my hook They were experts on the end times the last days.

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Is that what you were saying? Yes That's exactly what I'm saying. They say their church is the

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Church of Jesus Christ of latter -day saints Latter -day

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Dispensation say and that Joseph Smith actually ushered in the latter -day dispensation and That he restored

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Christ's original Church Which of course they

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Mormons say was lost Mormons believe that after the original 12

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Apostles died That the church that Christ had set up through his

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Apostles died with the Apostles that's an interesting very interesting point because It appears as though since you were a

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Mormon There has been a radical shift in Propaganda in public relations if you will and perhaps we could delve more deeply into it later after we hear more of Your personal story.

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I don't want to derail your personal story here, but it just jumped out at me what you said because My personal encounter even very recently

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I would say about four or five months ago Here in the streets of Carlisle, Pennsylvania when

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I when I saw Some Mormon missionaries young men walking down the street I could tell even from about 50 yards away that they were

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Mormons because of the white shirts Black ties and black badges on their pockets of their shirts and I called out to them.

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I said are you Mormons? And they stopped in their tracks and they said yes, we are So I said hold on and I went up to to have a conversation with them and They were giving me a entirely different pitch than I had received from a

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Mormon in the 1980s They were saying to me you probably heard that we think we're the only true church.

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That's not true. We're just Christians like you just another different kind of Christian and they were giving me a whole different kind of public relations speech than The evangelism

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I had received in the 1980s when I had become a brand new Christian and invited

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Mormons into my house to have a theological discussion, but so this seems to have been more of an old -school presentation that you received of being

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Them being the one true church because of all other churches being false and as you were just saying

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That the Church of Jesus Christ that he founded dying with the Apostles and in need of being restored on the earth

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Well, Chris, if you look on their website, they're still going to be teaching the idea that they're the only true church

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Okay, and it's in their scriptures so Although it's not something they would profess to the outside world

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The last maybe 15 -20 years there's been a huge push in Mormonism to say we're

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Christians, too literally when Mike and I encountered those missionaries in 1977 they did not want to be called

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Christian really my first days of Mormonism We considered anyone outside of the

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Mormon Church Gentile Mm -hmm, and then we considered ourselves as Mormons the only true

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Christians In fact Mormons believe that they are gathering lost ten tribes of Israel So let me let me read you this passage from the

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Book of Mormon. It says After the Bible had gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable

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Church See that would be the Catholic And then the

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Protestant churches, right? because they are They are the great and abominable

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Church through the Mormon Church according to their scriptures That there are many plain and precious things taken away from the

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Bible which is the book of the Lamb of God and because of these things which are taken out of the gospel of the

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Lamb and Exceedingly great many do stumble Yay in so much that Satan has great power over them

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That is currently in the book of Mormon and in first Nephi which

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Tells the Mormon point of view toward the gospel Toward the

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Bible, but also toward the church the Christian Church So although they don't say it publicly in this day and age they have this teaching in their scriptures

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That they are the one true church right that the Christian Church is actually an abomination

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And that the Bible is not reliable because many plain and precious things

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Like I just read have been removed from it by the great and abominable

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Church So was this a part of the actual attraction to you and your husband some people would be immediately offended by that kind of an exclusivistic stance by a

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Person in a religion as many liberals are even with Christianity They find it reprehensible that you would say that Jesus Christ is the one way to salvation.

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But but Was this something that attracted you and Michael the fact that this is the real deal?

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This is the true Church Jesus founded and everybody else is wrong. Was that a part of the the allurement?

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This particular scripture in the book of Mormon. The missionaries did not ever present to us

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It was years later than founded one interesting thing about Mormonism and about the

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Mormon missionaries is Mormons have what they call deep doctrines and they are certainly not going to present those deep doctrines to people who are looking at investigating

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Mormonism the Bible for Mormons is a Kind of a hook to offer other people who believe in Jesus and have had some exposure to the

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Bible But then Mormon missionaries immediately kind of used the Bible then to transition you to the book of Mormon saying that it is another testament of Jesus Christ, so Mormons actually have four standard works of scripture

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One of them is the Bible but their own articles of faith say

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We believe the Bible to be the Word of God as far as it's translated correctly so in other words that three books of Mormon scripture are

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Perfect and the book of Mormon is supposed to be the most correct book on the face of the earth

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The Bible they say has been mistranslated in several places and who knows where so you can't really trust it

16:37

Right, but it is something that they use in order to have people convert to Mormonism And like I said more than 80 % of people that join

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Mormonism as converts to the Mormon Church Come out of biblical Christianity.

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So people who know a little bit about Jesus have had a little bit of exposure You know to the

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Bible, but certainly do not understand How to separate a false faith from one that's true.

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Yeah, I can recall Years ago my friend Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries who has written about Mormonism himself

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He wrote a book called is the Mormon my brother and he wrote a book called letters to a

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Mormon elder and did a lot of evangelism to Mormons in Not only in Arizona where he lives but in Salt Lake City, Utah and other places during very prominent events that Mormons were having and he still does reach out to Mormons, but not to the very frequent degree he used to but I can remember him telling me that he encountered a woman who was a

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Mormon who was a Baptist prior to becoming a Mormon and When he was telling her some some of the things that Mormonism teaches

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Such as that faithful Mormons will become gods of their own planet and so on She was totally shocked.

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She had not known any of that and So I'm assuming that a lot of people when they become

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Mormons they may think that they're just joining some kind of another

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Christian denomination, but then when they Actually, you know learn more after becoming

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Mormons when they learn more in depth about the teachings They they may be discovering things for the first time.

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Like I just mentioned years later. Am I right on that? Years later when you're already so ingrained in the culture

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Mormonism actually calls it milk before meat We were taught not to offer

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Some of those strange deep doctrines to people outside of the church unless we detected they were ready to accept them so You will sometimes even have

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Mormons just plain lie about whether they believe certain things and sometimes

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Mormons don't know even Things are in their scriptures. I was LDS for nearly 30 years

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Until I taught diversity actually multiculturalism at Brigham Young University and My students start telling me about this thing.

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They called the curse of Cain skin was a curse and I thought that was the stupidest thing

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I'd ever heard, but I eventually realized that Those ideas came right out of Mormon scripture

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Right out of the Book of Mormon and the middle of great price and yet I had taught

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Mormon seminary and never seen that Wow, but this is how you know kind of controlled that system was when

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I taught Mormon seminary I had a manual my students had a manual and we

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I had to keep to the manual and Often the scriptures that we looked at especially if we were looking at Bible scriptures

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Were imprinted right into the manual so we didn't actually open our scriptures and read it in context

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But of course, I totally trusted the church you know, I trusted the

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Mormon Church that what they were putting together was sound doctrine and But now

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I know it often wasn't it was a matter of Cherry -picking things out of the

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Bible that looked like they supported Mormon doctrine but Mormon doctrine in many ways is very very counterintuitive and contrary to what

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Christ himself teaches in the Bible Yeah, I mean the the religions are nearly polar opposite With a

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Mormon religion and biblical Christianity the only thing that I can think of after learning a lot more about Mormonism myself after doing reading and Knowing my friend.

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Dr. James are white and our mutual friend Latency Scott who I've interviewed on this program

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The the only thing that we seem to have in common is some of the basic tenets of Biblical morality

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Perhaps most or all of them, but it really is the the more the more you get to know about the

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Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints the more it seems to resemble Greek mythology or You know the the pagan religions of the of the

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Norse gods and so on. It just seems to be really Nothing in common because because of the fact would you say

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That one of the things that confuses people is that Mormons very often use the same vocabulary, but they have a different dictionary

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Absolutely Absolutely, there are not two religious words between Mormonism and biblical

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Christianity That mean the same thing so you can pick any word

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Angel even even angels are different angel salvation grace

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You know Jesus God the Father all of those things are very different in Mormonism, but and biblical

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Christianity but because Mormons are using Christian like language

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Christians are so confused and or they assume That these folks must be

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Christians. They say I'm saved by grace Jesus died for me on the cross

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But even those two If you dig down don't mean the same right so first of all

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Let me announce to our listeners our email address if you'd like to join us on the air And you have a question for our guest dr.

23:07

Lynn Kay Wilder our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

23:14

please include your first name your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside of the

23:20

USA and If it makes you feel more comfortable remaining anonymous, perhaps you are a Mormon perhaps you are married to a

23:27

Mormon Or there's some circumstance where you'd rather remain anonymous you may do so and we will honor Your request in that regard

23:36

So Chris Arnzen at gmail .com is our email address for those of you who'd like to join us

23:43

Before we even get more in -depth about the teaching of Mormonism and how it contrasts with Biblical Christianity, I wanted to hear more about your personal journey in and out of this cult you

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One of the things that is clear about Mormonism is as opposed to Christianity where salvation is

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All of grace it is all of Christ. It is a rescue of a merciful

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God to helpless wicked sinners who do not deserve any

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Measure of grace or kindness from God or Christ and it seems the polar opposite is true in Mormonism about basically at all it being a religion of merit and a religion of pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps and that kind of thing and then eventually if you're diligent enough becoming a

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God yourself one day Was there anything about these? Elements of that religion

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That were frightening to you or was it something that also was appealing to you? Or did you just not know about it until later?

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I knew very little about all of that until later the manual that Mormon missionaries uses called preach my gospel and they have very kind of Prescripted places that they go with Investigators when they're in your home and Literally preach my gospel tries to get someone baptized after three visits or after you've been through Three little teachings by the

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Mormon missionaries You know basically nothing about Mormonism at that point.

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You do know Before you can join Mormonism that you have to accept

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Joseph Smith as a prophet of God And the one who restored the one true church before you can be baptized in the

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Mormonism That's kind of a major thing, but of course

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They built up Joseph Smith so big to me and and they always go through this argument

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God spoke to man through prophets in the Old Testament. Don't you think he loves us as much as he loved them?

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I didn't know that the Bible says the prophets were until John the

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Baptist You know now the gospel was preached I just didn't know the

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Bible and really the only antidote to all of these false teachings is to know your word and so There was a point and it was the word that brought me out of Mormonism What took me in the wonderful people the culture they loved on us they became family for us

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But that's a bit of a dangerous thing Chris because as soon as the

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Mormon Church replaces your family It really does begin to replace your biological family and I had

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Christian Biological family and all of a sudden everybody I saw everybody

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I hung out with I had callings in the Mormon Church Became Mormon and everyone my kids hung out with were

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Mormon Literally when I left the Mormon Church after 30 years,

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I didn't know anyone outside of the Mormon Church I didn't know how people dressed outside of Mormon bubble

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Except for my family my Christian family. That was it. It took me a while to read

27:34

No, I can I can believe it well we're gonna be going to a station break and we've already got several listeners waiting to have their questions asked and If you'd like to join them with a question of your own our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com

27:53

Chris a RN z en at gmail .com Don't go away. We'll be right back with former

27:59

Mormon. Dr Lynn Kay Wilder and her testimony of conversion to biblical

28:05

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31:35

Welcome back. This is Chris Arns And if you just tuned us in for the full two hours of our program today, we have on the program

31:43

Dr. Lynn Kay Wilder She is a former Mormon who by God's grace and mercy was rescued out of that cult and became a

31:54

Bible believing Christian a born -again sister in Christ and She has written a book unveiling grace the true story of how we found our way out of the

32:05

Mormon Church forward by dr. John Ankerberg and Before I return to that book in our discussion,

32:13

I just have a couple of important announcements on August 12th one week from today at 7 p .m.

32:21

At 7 p .m. Pacific Time My dear friend. Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega ministries is going to be involved in a theological debate with Steve Tassi on Calvinism and that is going to be moderated by Lane Chaplin and It's going to be held at Calvary Fellowship in Norwalk, California And if you'd like more details about that, you can call 714 -353 -6976 714 -353 -6976

32:58

You can also go to facebook .com Calvary Fellowship Norwalk, that's

33:07

N -o -r -w -a -l -k and You can also go to the Alpha and Omega ministries website at A -o -m -i -n -o -t -o -r -g

33:16

A -o -m -i -n -o -t -o -r -g and then finally on Friday, September 9th a very good friend of mine

33:25

Staff Sergeant David Carnes is Going to be speaking in Carlisle, Pennsylvania The hometown of Iron Sharpens Iron radio, he is going to be speaking at the

33:37

War College at a 911 memorial that the

33:42

War College is having and I was honored to help the War College the

33:47

US Army War College Arrange this event with Staff Sergeant David Carnes One of the things that's remarkable about this brother in Christ David Carnes is that he

34:00

Was primarily responsible for the rescue of several police officers transit police officers in New York City who were trapped beneath the rubble of one of the twin towers that had collapsed on them during the terrorist attack on September 11th and David Carnes Went into an area of the ruins of the

34:27

World Trade Center that had already been thoroughly searched at least they thought and basically had been given up on by the those who were involved in the the searches for surviving individuals and David Carnes went back into that area and Thanks be to God.

34:47

He did that because he was able to locate and get assistance to rescue these police officers who otherwise would have perished and He is a remarkable

34:57

Christian man, and so if you can make it to that event here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania We would be delighted to see you there and the website for more details for the

35:11

Christian businessmen's connection of Carlisle who are actually running this event in cooperation with the

35:17

US Army War College that Website is central PA dot

35:23

C bmc .com That's central PA dot

35:28

CB MC which stands for Christian businessmen's connection Dot -com central

35:35

PA dot cbmc .com and we hope that you Are there on Friday September 9th for this wonderful event with Staff Sergeant David Carnes a true

35:47

American hero and true Christian hero and We now return to our discussion with dr

35:53

Lynn Kay Wilder author of unveiling grace the story of how we found our way out of the

35:59

Mormon Church before We find out more about her own personal testimony I just wanted to read a couple of the endorsements by two women who have been guests on iron sharpens iron radio

36:11

One is my dear friend Latane C. Scott mutual friend of my guest today

36:16

This is the story of how a whole family did its own heart transplant a young man on his lifelong dream of a

36:24

Mormon mission his siblings a father deeply and men enmeshed in LDS priesthood and The author

36:33

Lynn Wilder a tenured professor at Brigham Young University one by one

36:38

They plucked the lifeless works driven core of Mormonism from their breasts and replaced it with the vibrant grace of Jesus Christ remarkable tender account that's

36:49

Latane C. Scott former Latter -day Saint and author of the Mormon Mirage and Unveiling grace is the inspiring account of one

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Mormon's family journey from error to truth from lying relying a priesthood authority to faith from trusting in temple ordinances to trusting in Christ alone

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The Wilder story demonstrates the love of the shepherd as he seeks his lost sheep and that's

37:16

Sandra Tanner great great granddaughter of Brigham Young and president of Utah Lighthouse ministry

37:22

And it was my honor to have both of those women on my program and those are very powerful endorsements for this book

37:29

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Lynn Wilder our email address is

37:36

Chris Arnson at gmail .com Chris Arnson at gmail .com so you you and your husband join the

37:43

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints, and then you actually become eventually a professor in one of the most world -renowned

37:54

Mormon institutions of education Known Brigham Young University. Tell us about that the

38:01

Mormon Church actually has four They own four colleges that they run

38:08

The foremost one is in Provo, Utah 36 ,000 students at Brigham Young University And it's a research to university, you know kind of well thought of in the

38:21

United States Yeah, a lot of the college sports fans Immediately recognized BYU when they hear that name

38:29

Yes Jim McMahon I got it start there

38:36

So Mormonism tries though very hard to have kind of a public presence and To be influential in the important institutions around the world.

38:50

Of course higher education is one of them So it would not be unusual for a prominent

38:57

Mormon to go to Brigham Young maybe undergrad a lot like Mitt Romney did and then step up into one of the

39:05

Ivy League schools like Yale or Stanford or Harvard, you know and then even go on and get a doctorate

39:15

Mormons will often then go into politics go into the

39:20

FBI the CIA military and Those things help

39:28

Mormonism kind of have a presence So that other people could look to us as Mormons and want the life that we had

39:40

It's it's a little bit of a prosperity gospel the Book of Mormon says those who are

39:49

Right Just of course you believe you can make yourself righteous those who are righteous will be blessed both temporally and spiritually so literally when

40:02

I was in Mormonism, I Believed that life would be good.

40:08

I wouldn't have cancer. I'd have a nice home. I'd have a nice job Wow, are you sure you weren't in Joel Osteen's Church?

40:18

And if those things didn't happen to me then I was doing something wrong

40:23

I was not keeping up my part of the bargain with God It's very work space and there's lots and lots of pressure on Mormons to be perfect Literally, they believe the scripture that says be perfect.

40:40

They don't understand. The only way that you get that way Is to be found in Christ who is your only perfection, right?

40:49

but Mormons actually believe that through their works They can please

40:55

God and then if they do enough good works and they endure to the end and they are

41:01

Worthy to go to the temple that at the end of their life if they've done enough God's grace

41:07

Might kick in but you never know that you have eternal life on this earth so you were so sunk into this that you were

41:18

Soaking up education and you eventually became Not only a professor but a tenured professor at this prestigious

41:26

College And when was it? That you started to think that perhaps you are actually leading young minds astray into very dangerous damnable evil error as a professor

41:44

Representing that that religion of Mormonism Well, there were certainly red flags around the way

41:52

Along the way one of the first ones was in the 1980s. I read a book called Emma Hale Smith Mormon Enigma about Joseph Smith main wife

42:06

And Emma Hale Smith what I did learn through this book was that Joseph had been a polygamist and That he'd actually lied to his wife

42:16

About being a polygamist and I learned all kinds of things that made me sick

42:22

But I just ignored it and put it on a shelf I really did think

42:27

Mormonism was the one true church The next thing that started to rock me was when

42:33

I went to BYU I was hired at BYU in 1999 in the year 2000 I was assigned to teach multiculturalism because our accrediting agency at BYU Required it right most schools are required now if you want federal money to teach diversity and so since I was kind of a baby the new hire and Nobody seemed to want to do it

42:57

I was assigned to do it and I was thrilled to do it my background is in working with gangs and kids and drugs and homeless shelters and I've had a lot of diversity kind of experience and So I was thrilled to do it

43:12

But the way God began to tug at me with this diversity

43:19

Topic was that my students at BYU began to tell me that dark -skinned was the curse

43:27

I'm laughing at them. I'm trying to teach multiculturalism cultural pluralism And they're they're telling me okay, okay, okay, but but not those with dark skin, right

43:39

Wow So I'm asking my students where they're getting this and one of my students said oh it comes out of the

43:46

Bible And I remember thinking That unreliable stupid Bible, right?

43:53

And because I had that point of view I It was years before I actually went back to the

44:01

Bible and tried to see what that whole Curse of Cain mark of Cain thing was when

44:07

I finally read it in the Bible. It's like, okay There's a God put some mark on him Wait doesn't say anything about skin color and the mark was actually to protect him to keep other people from killing him

44:20

Wait a minute. That's not all what the Mormons were telling me Well, I eventually learned that the

44:26

Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price, which are our two Mormons standard works of Scripture There are 26 scriptures in those two books that say things like dark skin is a curse and to this day it says in the

44:46

Book of Mormon when the unrighteous Lamanites joined the righteous

44:53

Nephites and became righteous their skin turned from dark to white that in the

45:00

Book of Mormon so I'm Thinking this is crazy

45:06

There's no merit to this and then I began to kind of dig into the history of Mormonism and I found out that blacks could not hold the

45:18

Mormon priesthood until 1978 I Found out blacks could not attend

45:23

BYU in the 60s I found that other universities were boycotting and wouldn't play

45:32

BYU in football because they didn't have any blacks on their football or basketball teams

45:38

Finding all kinds of things. I had not known in 30 years of Mormonism And many

45:44

Mormons are not even aware of and it's fairly recent history and well, well, you know

45:51

I Mentioned an encounter not the one I had in the streets of Carlisle here, but in the 1980s

45:58

When I was a new Christian and I actually was responding to a commercial for the

46:03

Mormon Church That said if you want a Book of Mormon hand -delivered by a

46:09

Mormon elder to your home call this number so I did because I wanted to Confront Mormons with the gospel.

46:18

I was a very aggressive Young Christian who wanted to I guess probably test my own abilities or something

46:25

But when the young Mormon came with an older man I was expecting the older man to be the smarter one of the two but time after time after time when

46:37

I mentioned some Controversial unpopular

46:42

Mormon teaching the older man was saying What you are saying does indeed sound strange but I think that you have probably heard wrong things about the

46:55

Mormon Church as if he was Reading it from a script and the younger man would it was constantly bowing his head and saying no, that's what we believe

47:04

When it came to the issue of race He got very that's when he first piped up and got very aggressive and said who are you to talk?

47:14

You're a Baptist and there are Baptists in the Ku Klux Klan There are there are many

47:19

Baptists who did not want integration in the south and They're they're very bigoted and I said well first of all

47:27

I will tell you right now that there will be many Baptists in hell Even though I'm a Baptist are you gonna say that about your prophets?

47:34

There is a difference between the moronic or sinful ideas of an individual who is a

47:42

Christian and A prophet speaking as the voice box of God and teaching things as commands.

47:48

Am I right? You are right about that the

47:54

Major problem today with Mormonism trying to masquerade as a

48:00

Christian Option is they have scriptures that teach they're the only true church they have scriptures that say a

48:09

Righteous priesthood male can work his way to become a god they say

48:16

Marriages for this life and for the next life. These are all things that are contrary to biblical doctrine

48:26

They say that polygamy is an eternal principle doctrine and covenants 132 today still says

48:35

That polygamy is an eternal principle it is amazing how similar the teachings of Mormonism and Islam are and That is certainly one that you can have multiple women in the next life

48:50

So when you were going through this internal struggle of conscience

48:56

When you were starting to hear these things, where was your husband at in his faith with the

49:02

Mormon Church? Well, we were both really dug in we loved our life

49:08

We thought God was blessing us because we were righteous Very prideful.

49:14

I was very full of pride A workspace faith if you believe that you can do it, you know, it's all about you and it was all about me boy, when

49:24

I got saved I Really got convicted It's Not about me at all it is about the

49:33

Lord that I serve Well about this time when I'm having these conundrums going on in my head

49:41

Our first son had served his Mormon mission in Russia Our second son had gone to Denmark Our third son was headed the prophet the

49:53

Mormon prophet said he would go to Mexico City on his mission

49:59

But while our third son Micah was in the missionary training center in Provo Preparing to go to Mexico City out of the blue.

50:10

This is this is the God we know His lung collapsed. No one quite knows why

50:17

He ended up in the hospital and then all of a sudden the Mormon Church is afraid to send this kid to Mexico City, which is

50:25

Really high and the medical stuff is not good for lungs and whatever So they say he has to go stateside.

50:34

Well, I don't know if you know in Mormon culture People feel like the more righteous missionaries go foreign and The folks who go stateside or maybe kids who aren't as strong in the gospel

50:52

Whatever so it was a little bit of a downer for Micah to have to go to Orlando, Florida Because he was a zealous young man, but Praise God.

51:07

He got sent to the middle of the Bible Belt with Christians and what the Bible said

51:12

Wow, by the way I don't know if you've ever seen the movie the

51:18

Saratov approach About the Mormon missionaries who were kidnapped in Russia.

51:23

I was just curious if your son had known those missionaries or Have you ever heard of the movie that I'm speaking about?

51:31

You know, I saw something about it, but I've not seen it. No, do you know what year it was?

51:37

He was there. Oh one two. Oh three. He went right after the wall came down right after the towers came down I just know that the movie as I'm looking at it right now on the internet.

51:49

It's the movie came out in 2013 but I'm not sure When the kidnappings it's actually a very good movie because it doesn't really get heavy into evangelizing

52:00

Mormon Theology or anything like that. It just goes by the account of these these young men who are being terrorized as kidnapped victims kidnapped victims in Russia, but that That's something that's an interesting question.

52:17

Some might say that I'm wrong for even talking Highly about a movie like that Do how do you feel about things like that now that you've left

52:28

Mormonism and we'll obviously go back to the the personal journey you went through but there are a lot of things in Society and culture that may involve a person

52:44

Speaking highly of something that a Mormon has done like made of movie or a

52:49

Mormon who's running for office Etc. Do you stay clear of any kind of support of anything by Mormons or?

52:57

that involved Mormon candidates and political offices and so on or is that something that you would view like many people and View a movie just because of the merits of its artistic artistic value or what have you?

53:13

A couple of things first, I think something like Saratov approach might be really good because it helps the outside world understand

53:23

Mormons and understand their culture and certainly, you know in order to bring someone to Jesus you need to know them inside and out and how they think and You need to love them and know how to pray for them and that kind of thing so I can see some value in that With our recent presidential election

53:46

Here's the thing in Mormonism Joseph Smith the founder of Mormonism in the 1830s made a prophecy

53:55

He made a number of false prophecies and one of the prophecies that he made that is not yet seen

54:02

Fulfillment is called the white horse prophecy. Yes And the white horse prophecy says that If you ever listen to Glenn Beck, you'll hear him use this phrase

54:14

Frequently and this is right out of the Mormon white horse prophecy Glenn Beck is a very strong people -going

54:21

Mormon The phrase is the US Constitution is hanging by a thread.

54:27

Yes Yes, I remember hearing that in a documentary before Mitt Romney or perhaps it was during Mitt Romney's bid for the presidency a number of years ago and I don't know if this is true.

54:42

But a part of that documentary they said that in the Washington DC Temple, there's actually an exact replica of the

54:51

Oval Office for the for the Mormon that would be involved in the fulfillment of that prophecy to Immediately fulfill the role of president or something.

55:02

It was that fantasy or you know, I don't know if that's true Mike and I were actually

55:08

Sealed together for this life and the next life marriage for this life and the next in the

55:13

Washington DC Temple really has several levels, you know, the temples typically have several levels

55:20

There's a basement level where even 12 year olds are allowed to go in and do

55:26

Baptisms for the dead So if you didn't get baptized into the one true

55:31

Church Mormon Church during your lifetime and you die you can accept

55:37

Mormonism in the next life supposedly But someone has to physically be baptized in proxy for you on earth

55:45

So in Mormon temples even young teenage kids will go into the Mormon Temple and just do

55:51

Be dunked one time after another after another Dead Mostly what

55:57

Mormon temple work is is for the dead then on the next floor you have an endowment room

56:04

And then sometimes on a third floor. There's a celestial room That kind of represents heaven and then there are upper floors that even good temple recommend holding

56:17

Mormons can't usually go into just church leadership or the

56:22

Mormon 12 Apostles sometimes go up there or something called the second anointing

56:28

Happens in those upper floors of the temple, you know We've been told as Mormons the only way you can be assured

56:38

That you were saved in Mormonism is if the prophet the Mormon prophet himself

56:44

Calls you into the temple and washes your feet called a washing and anointing or the second anointing and That's the only way your salvation is assured.

56:58

So right before The presidential election and oh eight my

57:03

Mormon friends were Posting on Facebook that the prophet had called

57:09

Mitt Romney in and given him his second anointing to assure

57:15

Not only does it assure your eternal life your salvation, but it assures your godhood

57:22

Wow so the white horse prophecy is basically how the

57:32

United States is going to be rescued as the Constitution is hanging by a thread and this will somehow become a

57:39

Mormon theocracy am I right on that this country? Well, eventually see Christ the

57:44

Mormon Christ will return to earth and he'll rule and reign and so because in Mormonism you have three separate gods and each of them have a

57:56

Holy God the Father and Jesus have bodies of flesh and bone They are a smaller

58:04

God than the Spirit God in the New Testament. Okay, so these these

58:10

God men with bodies of flesh and bone can't be all places at once, right?

58:16

So like they can't answer your prayer They have to send somebody to listen to you and then report to them kind of a thing

58:24

So when Jesus is ready to come back and rule and reign on the earth Just think of this in Mormon thinking

58:33

The Mormon Church has to prepare the earth to be ready for Christ to come and rule and reign and so a white horse prophecy

58:46

Put would put a Mormon in the most powerful position on the earth so that then

58:53

Things are set up so that when Jesus is ready to return he'll have a place to rule from now

59:00

When I read the Bible and read that the God of the Bible could like Blow his nostrils and all his enemies were dead

59:14

Yeah, quite a difference In fact my favorite chapter in the book one of my favorite chapters is called biggie size your

59:22

God Back when McDonald's was the big deal and we were leaving Mormonism. We heard this sermon

59:29

Biggie size your God and I thought now that is exactly what you have to do when you come from the

59:35

Mormon God to the Well, we have to go to another break right now

59:41

If you'd like to join us on the air Our email address is Chris Ornson at gmail .com and I apologize to those who are still listening

59:48

Who are still waiting to have me read their questions. I just wanted to get

59:54

Lynn further along in her testimony before we brought up things that would be

01:00:02

Be kind of too soon to ask at the earlier stage in the interview

01:00:08

So we look forward to getting to your questions as soon as possible Thank you for your patience And if you'd like to join them, our email address is

01:00:15

Chris Ornson at gmail .com chris ar n z n at gmail .com

01:00:22

Don't go away. We'll be right back with dr. Lynn Kay Wilder and more of her journey out of the

01:00:30

Mormon cult So don't go away We'll be right back after these messages

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01:04:51

Welcome back to iron sharpens iron if you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours is dr

01:04:58

Lynn Kay Wilder a former Mormon who was rescued by the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ and Delivered from the cult of Mormonism and into a genuine

01:05:11

Bible believing Christianity and we are discussing her book today Unveiling grace the story of how we found our way out of the

01:05:21

Mormon Church If you'd like to join us on the air Our email is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

01:05:27

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com before I return to our discussion I just have a few quick announcements about upcoming programs that you

01:05:35

Should mark your calendars for World -renowned author George Grant who has written quite a number of books over the years

01:05:46

Dozens, I think on theology and politics He will be on the air

01:05:52

Wednesday August 10th for the full two hours 4 to 6 p .m One of my favorite guests

01:05:59

Todd Friel of wretched TV and wretched radio He is going to be on iron sharpens iron on Monday August 15th

01:06:09

God -willing and he is going to be discussing his brand new book hot off the press stressed out a practical biblical approach to anxiety

01:06:19

That's Todd Friel of wretched TV and wretched radio we have

01:06:24

Bodie Hodge is going to be on Bodie Hodge is

01:06:30

On our program on Wednesday August 24th, and he is a co -author of a two -volume work on the cults

01:06:39

Which is obviously very similar to our subject today here so you don't want to miss that interview with Bodie Hodge on the cults and we have

01:06:51

Actually before that on Monday August 22nd I skipped over a very important interview by accident my friend

01:07:01

Rosaria Champagne Butterfield Returns to iron sharpens iron for another interview she

01:07:08

Was a professor just like our guest today But was delivered from a different kind of false ideology

01:07:15

She was a liberal. In fact, she is a self -described former leftist lesbian

01:07:23

Who was miraculously transformed by the sovereign grace of God and today she is not only a heterosexual

01:07:33

Christian, but she's the wife of a pastor and She is an author and we're gonna hear more about her story on Monday August 22nd, and that's just a handful of the many

01:07:48

Fascinating topics that we'll be addressing in the days and weeks to come here in our interpreters iron So we hope that you join us for those and other programs

01:07:58

Well, we have a listener actually right in the same city where you're from Lynn I don't know if you know this listener, but Mike in Fort Myers, Florida, and it's not your husband and He says greetings

01:08:15

Lynn, I'm in the process of reading your book grace unveiled and it's been fascinating.

01:08:20

Thank you My question to you is this what techniques have you found to be most effective in evangelizing

01:08:27

Mormons? You know my husband in our ministry does not often hit head with Mormons who are active and dug into their faith

01:08:43

God is doing an amazing work right now and tens of thousands of folks are leaving

01:08:50

Mormonism mostly because of the information that is available right on the internet right now

01:08:57

The only place Mormonism is really growing would be in areas of South America and Africa Particularly where people don't have access to the internet they can't

01:09:10

I've been Joseph Smith and find out he had 40 -some wives, etc, you know

01:09:15

And believe that blacks had the curse of Cain on them Which would obviously be something interesting for Africans to find out about you would think and yet Sometimes I talk to Mormons who are dark -skinned who love the faith so much.

01:09:31

They kind of turn a blind Gladys Knight Gladys Knight of Gladys Knight in the pips is a

01:09:37

Mormon and she is being used to aggressively evangelize the black community

01:09:43

It's true. I saw her in New York a few years ago when I was LDS But Well, uh, by the way

01:09:52

Mike Since you already have the book. I will still mail it to you.

01:09:58

If you make a promise you have to give it to a Mormon that's my My because I'm giving away free copies to a selected number of Listeners today and in fact, they've been autographed by our guest

01:10:13

Lindy Wilder and she In fact autographed them each uniquely and differently.

01:10:19

So that's I'm sorry Lin Kay Wilder I didn't mean to call you Lin D Wilder Lin Kay Wilder So if you promise to Give that to a

01:10:30

Mormon and give us your full mailing address We will send that book out to you for your question today

01:10:35

And we have a couple of other people a few other people waiting for their questions to be asked

01:10:41

But I also wanted you to finish up a little bit on the what we were saying before the break the about the white horse prophecy and my question to you was as a former

01:10:54

Mormon and really realizing more than your average person The falsehood that exists in that religion and Feeling that betrayal that people often do when they leave a religion where they've been lied to for many years

01:11:12

How do you feel about people in fact Christians Who would be aggressively and eagerly even supporting?

01:11:21

Mormon candidates for different offices including the president of the United States How did you feel when

01:11:28

Christians were aggressively behind Mitt Romney and that kind of thing You mean like Franklin Graham took off of his website during the election that Mormonism was a cult

01:11:39

Wow After the election really I didn't know that. I mean it actually doesn't shock me that much because of the softness

01:11:47

With which the Burleigh Graham Association and Franklin Graham have had towards some false religions

01:11:54

But I didn't know that he took it off and put it back that was that's interesting It is interesting

01:12:02

How do I feel, you know Mitt Romney probably was a wonderful manager and would have been a great president

01:12:08

But but if someone in ministry this is my concern if you put someone who's

01:12:16

Mormon in such an influential position and Mormon missionaries knock on the door in Indonesia and say well, you know, the president of the

01:12:25

United States is a Mormon, right? You know, my guess is that would help

01:12:30

Tens of thousands maybe millions of people to come into a false faith and to me that's my greatest concern

01:12:39

We kind of have a twofold purpose One is to help Christians understand

01:12:45

Mormonism and For people to know that Mormonism is outside of the body of Christ But then also to help

01:12:54

Mormons understand what those different sizes are because their church does not tell them

01:13:00

Necessarily the truth about Christianity and they really don't know that unless they read the

01:13:06

Bible with an open heart and we have Susan in Newville, Pennsylvania and she asks

01:13:14

I Understand that you were raised in a Protestant home. Did any of your family?

01:13:22

outside of your husband follow you and your husband into this cult and Have any of them been upset by your departing from it?

01:13:36

No Let me see no one on my side

01:13:41

Mike did baptize a sister of his that lived in Connecticut for a number of years and when we left the church

01:13:50

There's been quite a rift between Mike and his sister. She is still in the Mormon Church and quite not happy that we have left

01:14:00

You know, everyone has kind of strong opinions different ways, let me tell you this though Once I read the

01:14:08

Bible and I realized this is not Mormonism I was a little angry with my

01:14:16

Christian family I have a sister who's strongly Christian my parents were strongly

01:14:21

Christian and I don't recall one time in 30 years That anyone any of my old

01:14:27

Christian friends or my Christian family tried to step into a conversation with me

01:14:33

About where Mormonism was or what I believed and why

01:14:38

I believed that and I'm sure people were just So afraid of breaking relationship, right?

01:14:45

I'd be so angry. I wouldn't talk to them again But I was a little frustrated.

01:14:51

Were you gonna let me march out to hell Wow, even tell me about Wow, that is an excellent point and because I have been

01:15:03

Integrally involved in Arranging and orchestrating theological debates since 1995 and I have been ridiculed by fellow believers in Christ Who think that in a day and age?

01:15:23

Where wickedness abounds that we should stop being mean to each other If those who profess to love

01:15:32

God and profess to love Jesus Christ and live Morally, and so on we should be linking arms and we should be opposing the overtly evil society that we face rather than shooting each other and that it really boils down to in many senses a

01:15:54

An ideology where people's feelings are more important than their never -dying souls and I'm so delighted and refreshed to hear what you just said that you were totally frustrated with professed believers in Jesus Christ who would rather You go to hell than hurt your feelings now, even though they might not have thought that through That was really the practical implications of the way they were behaving in your presence

01:16:23

And certainly my mother prayed for me for 30 years had Bible studies praying for me and last about a year ago

01:16:30

I was invited to speak in Indianapolis at a church where my parents had been members and And there was a line of women there who said

01:16:39

I prayed for you for 30 years at which point I cried But but honestly,

01:16:46

I don't remember anyone being willing to have a conversation with me And so God has raised up people like us to be willing to have those conversations in the public realm and yes, we get opposition, of course from Mormonism because they

01:17:03

Want to believe that they're in the body of Christ But we also get opposition sometimes within Christianity and we just keep marching on This is how

01:17:14

I would boil it down Do you believe there's a God that's smarter than you are and do you believe that the

01:17:23

Bible is his word and so If if you say yes to those things

01:17:32

Then you have your standard of truth, you know, and you have your God and that standard of truth believe it or not

01:17:41

Warns of false Christ false gospels false apostles false teachers over and over and over It's been a prolific problem

01:17:51

Pretty much since the church was formed the book of Galatians was written 19 years after Jesus died by Paul Because the church had already gone to pot

01:18:05

Taking the original doctrine that they had set up the church with and was going off in all kinds of false directions

01:18:13

This has always been an issue for the church. And yet I can tell you at Florida Gulf Coast I'm the advisor for a campus

01:18:22

Christian organization and we have lots of Christian youth who grew up in the church all of their lives in the

01:18:30

Bible Belt and Yet when I bring up the false scripture and say what do you think this might mean they have no clue

01:18:37

They have encountered those they had never thought about it. They tell me. Oh, that must be Islam or Buddhism Well, no, this was a problem with and or people who were trying to say there they were within and they weren't certainly

01:18:56

Islam doesn't Threaten Christianity by saying they're

01:19:01

Christians, too, you know, right Well of the motto that I live by in regards to debates that I organize is from Proverbs 27 6

01:19:14

Faithful are the wounds of a friend but deceitful are the kisses of an enemy and We will if we are being honest with those we loved we will often

01:19:27

Hurt their feelings and they may hurt our feelings when they may expose sinful behaviors in our own lives or inconsistencies or erroneous thinking or teaching but if you're doing it with the motivation of love and compassion and wanting to deliver someone out of a false belief system or sinful behavior

01:19:51

How could that possibly be something that a critic a Christian is criticized for by other

01:19:57

Christians? when enemies are Kissing us left and right trying to deceive us with falsehood through their seductive ways of kindness and and false graciousness and generosity and so on so that is something that we have to be very careful of as Christians and by the way,

01:20:19

Susan in Newville, Pennsylvania, you are also receiving a free copy of unveiling grace the story of how we found our way out of the

01:20:29

Mormon Church by Lin K Wilder and it's also as I said earlier, it's autographed by Lin K Wilder as well.

01:20:37

So it makes it even more special and Thank you for providing those Lin and also thank you to Zondervan publishers

01:20:46

So we're at a point when you and your husband have left the

01:20:54

Mormon Church that must have even though you You recognized that that was something that you needed to do

01:21:03

There very often is a great feeling of Pain involved in giving up something like that that you may have cherished for decades

01:21:16

But and then again, there are people who? Giddily run Singing praises without ever looking back when something like that happens.

01:21:25

So not everybody has the same kind of life experience Tell us something about That when you and your husband left there

01:21:34

Well the long and short of what happened was that third that third son

01:21:42

Ended up reading the New Testament About a dozen times while he was on his

01:21:47

Mormon mission because he kept bumping up against Evangelicals and he wanted to understand where they were coming from God actually saved him on one

01:21:59

Monday afternoon Very near the end of his his Mormon mission

01:22:05

Then if God would have it he got invited to stand in front of about 60 or 80 other missionaries to Bear his testimony of what he'd learned over the two years of his

01:22:17

Mormon mission to of course encourage the new guys coming along and He said it was like standing on the edge of a diving board either this

01:22:27

God can catch me or he can't He professed the God of grace

01:22:34

He said he didn't think he needed a Mormon prophet to be saved He'd read in the New Testament that Jesus was the only mediator between man and God He was called in Called a devil called we were told our son had the spirit of the devil in him

01:22:53

He was an Antichrist and they were sending him home from his Mormon mission in disgrace

01:22:59

Three weeks before the end But again, you know this

01:23:05

God is so good I would have marched on in Mormonism till the end of my life even even knowing these silly things about polygamy and you can become a god and and racism

01:23:21

Until God himself had to rock my world and turn me another direction

01:23:29

When this happened to Micah They put him on a plane from Florida and sent him back to Utah where we were living

01:23:36

We only kept him in the state of Utah for two days because the Mormon Church was trying to Excommunicate him and make an example of him and we could not figure out why he was in so much trouble for purchasing the biblical

01:23:50

Jesus we thought we believed the same one and And Micah though before we put him on a plane and got him out of Utah Begged his parents, please

01:24:02

Promise me you'll read the New Testament. He specifically said read it like a child with no preconceived notion and Then the other thing he said was mom and dad

01:24:17

Jesus is enough Wow Wow, so there you have an

01:24:22

Instance where it wasn't the parent leading a child away from danger it was a child leading his parents out of danger about a very very perilous and everlasting danger.

01:24:39

Yes, and Eventually the entire family But it was an emotional roller coaster that nearly tore us apart

01:24:50

But again, God often has to take us to those kind of places I think to get our attention, right?

01:24:58

my Transition out of Mormonism. I began to read the Bible when Micah challenges to my husband did as well we'd sit up in bed at night reading it and Honestly, it was almost as if the

01:25:12

Holy Spirit immediately opened my eyes I read John 1 when I started in the book of John in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and The word was

01:25:22

God. Well, I knew the word was Jesus and I'm going Wait a minute.

01:25:27

He couldn't he wasn't God in the beginning. He worked his way to Godhood, you know, right there

01:25:35

And over and over and over and over Do you know that Joseph Smith the founder of Mormonism actually went through the

01:25:43

Bible and fixed all the things that were wrong with it and It's called Joseph Smith's new translation of the

01:25:49

Bible now Mormons don't actually use it But in their King James version of the

01:25:55

Bible the footnotes will take you to the Joseph Smith Translation to clarify it.

01:26:02

So one of the things I did when I hit John 1 1 and it says

01:26:07

Jesus was God from the beginning But Mormonism had taught me he wasn't I go to the

01:26:13

Joseph Smith fixed better translation, right and Joseph Smith had changed

01:26:20

John 1 1 and not only just John 1 1 but the entire first chapter of John Which is the nature of God so almost immediately.

01:26:29

I knew Wow Mormonism teaches a God with a different nature Than the

01:26:35

God of the Bible they can't be the same now why on earth Don't the

01:26:40

Mormons use the Joseph Smith version? I mean other than the footnotes for it

01:26:46

Why don't they just have a leather -bound Joseph Smith version that they market? Because it's so different from what

01:26:55

Christians have Christians would probably not be drawn into Mormonism That would be my guess, you know, and they want

01:27:02

Mormons to believe that they're a Christian sect There we go.

01:27:07

It's a little bit of deception milk before meat and So you said that it almost tore your family apart when your son

01:27:16

Micah had this conversion experience Were you and your husband? Militating against him initially and being forcefully resistant

01:27:27

We were completely confused about why he was in trouble why he had given up Everything he had it.

01:27:36

He was an astrophysics major at Brigham Young, right? So he can't go back to Brigham Young now in fact

01:27:43

I knew that I couldn't stay at Brigham Young if I ever left the Mormon Church or became unworthy of my temple recommend

01:27:53

Mormonism actually if you are a Mormon student going to BYU and you decide to leave the

01:27:58

Mormon Church even go to biblical Christianity you're not allowed to enroll in classes and you cannot graduate from the university so when

01:28:07

Micah began Encouraging his family to read the word

01:28:12

He starts sharing with his older brother that had gone to Denmark on his mission

01:28:17

And he was a piano performance major at Brigham Young at the time about to enter his senior year

01:28:27

That the biblical Jesus and then had to face that choice

01:28:32

Do I stay underground and lie and even if I'm found out they'll take my they might take my diploma away from me or Do I stand up for the biblical

01:28:45

Jesus like my brother did and let the consequences fall where they may Trusting that this

01:28:52

God has a plan Wow Well, we're gonna be returning to our discussion after our final station break.

01:29:01

This is our last time. We're cutting away for commercials So if you'd like to join us on the air

01:29:07

With your own questions, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com and and don't worry There are a few of you who are waiting.

01:29:14

I didn't give up on you. I didn't forget you We'll get to your questions as soon as possible and Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

01:29:23

chrisarnsen at gmail .com Don't go away. We'll be right back with the fascinating story of Dr.

01:29:30

Lynn Kay Wilder and her journey out of Mormonism, which is

01:29:36

Journaled in her book Unveiling grace the story of how we found our way out of the

01:29:42

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Call in Brook Baptist at 5 1 6 5 9 9 9 4 0 2 that's 5 1 6 5 9 9 9 4 0 2 or visit

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Linbrook Baptist org. That's Linbrook Baptist org. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen And this is the final half hour of our two -hour broadcast today featuring dr.

01:34:40

Lynn Kay Wilder formerly a professor at Brigham Young University a

01:34:46

Former Mormon who was delivered from this cult by the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ and she's the author of the book unveiling grace the story of how we found our way out of the

01:34:57

Mormon Church and Our email address if you'd like to join us as Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

01:35:03

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com before we go to CJ in Lindenhurst Long Island, New York with his question.

01:35:10

I want to before we run out of time have a few words About Adams Road the ministry the the musical group that your son

01:35:21

Micah who you were just speaking about is a manager for this group and I Wanted to introduce our listeners who are unfamiliar to Adams Road and their ministry

01:35:32

I hope to get that group at least some of them or at least one of the members of the band on my

01:35:40

Program at some point soon perhaps even Micah if you'd like to be interviewed But if you could tell us about Adams Road, oh

01:35:49

Absolutely when Micah was sent home in disgrace from his mission

01:35:54

He was telling us about this Ministry, he knew that God had laid on his heart now

01:36:04

Mike and I in Mormonism did not even know what a ministry was We had no

01:36:10

Conception of what he was even talking about and yet the day he walked away from his

01:36:16

Mormon mission Was the day he began a ministry an evangelism ministry

01:36:23

To bring people to know a God of grace The book unveiling grace.

01:36:29

There's a Video you can find online Unveiling grace

01:36:36

Teach the differences between Doctrines of work and this whole idea that God saved us by his grace.

01:36:45

There's not anything you can do To please him or to add to what he did for you on the cross

01:36:52

Your job is to surrender your life to him to accept him as your

01:36:58

Lord and Savior Micah's testimony is Extremely compelling if you ever go to hear

01:37:04

Adams Road, you must take your Kleenex It's it's an amazing story of what

01:37:11

God can do Micah then shared with this older brother Matt who was the piano performance major at BYU Matt then joined

01:37:19

Micah in ministry Both of them married Mormon girls and brought them to the biblical

01:37:26

Jesus as well Those families are still in Mormonism Not real thrilled with what we do then

01:37:35

Micah helped one of his missionary companions read the Bible and when he got was

01:37:44

When his mission was up. He was also on mission with Micah in Orlando, Joseph Warren Joseph gave his life to the biblical

01:37:52

Jesus ended up Joining the Adams Road ministry and married my daughter

01:37:58

Katie who eventually also left Wow Raised up this amazing story

01:38:06

Even a Mormon Ward Mission leader that Micah knew on his mission

01:38:13

Micah started sharing the Bible with this man came to know the biblical Jesus and then has

01:38:20

He Has been part of providing a tent making ministry for Adams Road.

01:38:26

They own a bed -and -breakfast in Winter Garden, Florida And their wives run the bed -and -breakfast while the men are on the road about five months out of the year speaking in churches and declaring the grace of God Wow, that's something and I know that the

01:38:48

Adams Road If you'd like to find out more information about this ministry and musical group group

01:38:55

It is Adams Road ministry calm and there is no apostrophe in the

01:39:01

URL Adams Road ministry calm and God willing as I said we will not only have

01:39:09

Micah on at some point soon if he's available and Willing to be on the program, but also we'd like to have members of the group and we'd like to play some music

01:39:18

By the group and so on and it's very moving in a day and age of commercialism

01:39:24

That is saturated the Christian Church They offer their music absolutely for free.

01:39:30

That's highly unusual They do and it's basically the word put to music and it it was scriptures that have been instrumental in them understanding the

01:39:42

God of grace Praise God. Well, we have a questioner as I was saying in Lindenhurst, Illinois in New York CJ He asks

01:39:51

I know that those involved in academics such as professors at universities

01:39:58

Sometimes allow for more freedom of thought than your average person Do you know of fellow colleagues at BYU?

01:40:07

Who really seriously? Questioned many of the claims of Mormonism, but just resisted leaving and do you have any friends who have

01:40:17

Stayed in your life who are colleagues of yours at BYU or have they all shunned you?

01:40:26

Well in Mormonism, you kind of have to shun an apostate and Mormonism The only people that go to hell would be

01:40:33

Satan his minions and folks apostate from the Mormon Church Particularly those like me who speak out so certainly former colleagues are nice to me, but they

01:40:44

Don't really have a relationship with me. Very few Mormons that have remained on my

01:40:51

Facebook. Although a few have I Have learned since I left

01:40:59

Mormonism of many many many many professors at Brigham Young who do not believe in Mormonism Hmm I didn't know them at the time because I was very dug into Mormonism and they would not have come out to me

01:41:14

But I have since learned that there are many Underground I even talked to a janitor recently from BYU questioning this person's faith and Of course, they're all afraid to be public because then they lose their job and their retirement

01:41:36

Wow That's something. Well, thank you CJ and you're also getting an autographed copy of the book unveiling grace

01:41:44

The story of how we found our way out of the Mormon Church by dr.

01:41:50

Lynn K Wilder thank you so much for the question and That is sad, obviously you would think that if these

01:42:02

Former colleagues of yours really believe they had the truth that although they would

01:42:10

Have certain barriers on their involvement in your life just as a Christian would with an unrepentant sinner

01:42:16

That they would still want, you know to extend love and graciousness and kindness to you to a point where they were in communication and wanting you to Return that seems counterproductive actually

01:42:29

Well works based Work space faith often use fear shame and guilt

01:42:36

To keep folks in the faith and kind of when those things don't work, then you're just kind of done

01:42:44

Besides you don't want the cancer to infect your own family We have

01:42:51

Bob in New York City Who says I have heard?

01:42:56

That the only people that will go to hell in Mormon theology or apostate

01:43:02

Mormons This seems like a very counterproductive teaching if you're trying to evangelize people

01:43:10

It seems that those non Mormons who did hear this would be more resistant to join a group where they're the only ones who will be

01:43:18

Candidates possibly to enter hell. That's interesting Well, it is interesting because in Mormonism, of course, you can hear the

01:43:27

Mormon gospel after death And so, you know, why would you kind of do all the rules and regulations during life when you think it through?

01:43:37

As long as you've got somebody that'll do your ordinances for you in the temple after you're gone

01:43:43

Yeah, there are a number of things in Mormonism. They just don't make a lot of logical sense

01:43:49

Certainly if you're going to become a god and have your own world You know, we always believe that we'd be living with our families in eternity

01:43:59

But you know what your kids grow up and get married so they're not going to actually be on your world with you

01:44:05

They're gonna have their own worlds and then how does that work? My husband says you get in your cosmic station wagon and you go visit your kids worlds on at Christmas I mean, there's just a lot that Doesn't even make sense

01:44:20

Is that true though that the only people who will go to hell according to Mormon theology are apostate

01:44:26

Mormons and Satan and his minions. Yes, they have their hell is called outer darkness and it is conserved

01:44:35

Just for those folks Mormons will tell you Hitler is in the lowest heaven

01:44:40

Wow, so how about Those they call Gentiles those outside of the

01:44:47

Mormon Church who are serial killers and all kinds of horrible things Obviously Hitler is a pretty prime example of a serial killer

01:44:55

So I guess you answered my question there, but is that is that the case with just generally all?

01:45:01

Gentiles or those who are non Mormons who are very overtly unrepentant wicked people

01:45:09

Unrepentant wicked people would probably end up in the bottom heaven the third heaven It's called the telestial world the second heaven would be reserved for kind of bad

01:45:20

Mormons and good Christians And then you have you have the the celestial kingdom where you can work your way to become a god as Your highest heaven, but you have to be

01:45:34

Mormon and you have to be temple recommend worthy Mormon So I'm assuming then when you left

01:45:43

BYU as you were saying before about the fear among your colleagues that don't want to come out of the closet as being delivered from Mormonism perhaps a bad phrase to use in this day and age coming out of the closet, but but You have you lost all?

01:46:04

The source of income from BYU as a result of leaving even though you were tenured there

01:46:10

I Of course Opted to leave my job at BYU.

01:46:18

I Hope my retirement will be there. It's still in the account.

01:46:24

Okay So I'm hoping it that works out. I Lost 30 years of friends pretty much when

01:46:32

I left Mormonism as did most of the family That's a very normal kind of thing.

01:46:39

It took me probably and I'm I'm embarrassed to tell you there's probably close to five years to become emotionally stable

01:46:51

To get enough of the Bible in me to get enough faith in the new

01:46:57

God Until I could kind of rise up and move on it's a it's a horrendous

01:47:04

Transition because it's a very different way of thinking but the only way to get into Right thinking is to get into the

01:47:13

Bible and get washed by the water of the word Amen Amen, we have

01:47:22

Christopher in Amityville, Long Island, New York he says that I have been disturbed by Christians who have adopted

01:47:36

Glenn Beck as a brother in Christ Because they say he really isn't a

01:47:43

Mormon Theologically, he may just be one in name only and they are so enthralled and excited about his political brilliance and are on the same page with him in regard to This subject they seem to have lost all discernment in regard to his religion.

01:48:02

Is it dangerous? Do you think for Christians to be? Rallying around a person like Glenn Beck who is a

01:48:11

Mormon still well, that is a decision for each person to make certainly but I can tell you that rumors are that Glenn Beck has been attending a

01:48:24

Christian church in Dallas, I believe Gateway On Saturday night, but going to his

01:48:31

Mormon ward on Sunday morning My guess is that's a deliberate thing to try to melt

01:48:36

The Mormon world with the Christian world and kind of assuage the Christian world So I've heard from many

01:48:43

Christians. Oh Glenn Beck's about to become great Christian or all here Oh Glenn Beck was just baptized into the

01:48:50

Christian Church But I also have friends who have been to the temple with Glenn back there in in the

01:48:57

Mormon Temple there in New York As far as I know, he's a very strong believing

01:49:02

Mormon You can pull up some YouTube videos where he gives his his Mormon testimony

01:49:10

I do not know what is in his heart, but if If you ask

01:49:16

Micah if you can be a Mormon and be a Christian Of course, the answer is only

01:49:22

God knows what is in someone's heart However, if you have become transformed and born again, you are likely headed out of Mormonism Because it teaches a gospel that's contrary to what

01:49:37

God himself taught in the Bible Yeah, what you I'm assuming what you mean by that is that you could be a

01:49:43

Mormon in name But truly be regenerate a born -again believer because you believe in the true gospel.

01:49:49

You don't believe in the Mormon understanding of God and the gospel and so on either

01:49:59

Through being ignorant of what the Mormons teach or for some rebellious reason you're remaining there and Believing simultaneously in Christian truth.

01:50:11

I'm assuming that's what you mean by that right and by the way, you have

01:50:19

Received our last giveaway copy Christopher and Make sure you give us your full address and we are gonna send you out unveiling grace the story of how we found our way out of the

01:50:32

Mormon Church by dr. Lynn Kay Wilder our guest today and That is being shipped to you compliments of our sponsors

01:50:41

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CVBBS .com CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible book service calm and they send out all of our books that we award to questioners on this program and we thank them for Taking up the cost of that.

01:51:05

These are shipped out to our winners at no expense to iron sharpens iron Thanks to Todd and Patty Jennings over at CVBBS .com

01:51:15

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service So keep your eye open for that book Christopher and as I said earlier, it's autographed by our guest

01:51:25

Dr. Lynn Kay Wilder, which makes it even more special and I've noticed that each of the autographs of different unique Inscriptions in there.

01:51:34

So thank you very much for that. Dr. Wilder and I want to make sure not only that I give your website unveiling grace the book calm

01:51:46

Our excuse me Chris our ministry website is unveiling mormonism calm

01:51:54

Okay Unveiling mormonism calm so that's a different website that I just gave

01:52:01

Unveiling mormonism calm and that is the Ministry of my guest and her husband

01:52:09

Michael Wilder and I want to make sure because we only have about seven minutes left

01:52:15

I want to make sure that you unburden your heart and leave our audience With what you most want etched in their hearts and minds before they leave this program today.

01:52:27

Oh My thank you for that opportunity Chris. I Think probably the central issue is whether or not you have the right

01:52:39

Jesus You know doctrine does matter and the way we find out what is true

01:52:46

Is to hear the word from the Word of God himself

01:52:52

That would be Jesus and his word Of course is the Bible which is the authority of every

01:52:59

Christian believer The Jesus of Mormonism very Interestingly was born at a point in time.

01:53:09

He's a created being There was a heavenly father and a heavenly mother. They had sex and then they had these spirit children

01:53:17

Jesus was their first spirit child and Lucifer was their second which makes them brothers

01:53:25

That's not the Jesus of the Bible the Jesus of the Bible does not have a spirit brother by the name of Lucifer the

01:53:35

Jesus of Mormonism Most Mormon prophets have taught he was sired in the usual way and in other words heavenly father came down to Mary and Probably impregnated her in the usual way

01:53:49

The virgin birth is a very important part of biblical Christianity The Jesus of Mormonism atoned for our sins in the

01:53:59

Garden of Gethsemane When he sweat as if great drops of blood Not on the cross

01:54:06

What Mormons say happened on the cross? The only thing that happened is Jesus died on the cross

01:54:13

So they certainly do not revere the cross although it says in 1st Corinthians 1 18

01:54:20

The preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing But to us who are saved it is the power of God It is all about the cross and it's all about the blood and these were

01:54:35

Concepts that were foreign to me in Mormonism Mormon that the

01:54:41

Mormon Jesus has a different nature and he teaches a different way to salvation

01:54:47

Which means to me it cannot be the same Jesus You do have to have the right

01:54:53

Jesus in order to have regeneration and to have salvation the

01:55:00

Jesus of the Bible Has answered prayers for me Given me scripture when

01:55:07

I needed it showed up in my life in the most amazing I almost hesitate to use the word

01:55:15

Supernatural, but they are things that only God could do.

01:55:22

I Have so many of these kind of stories in the book of how God showed up and and made sure that I knew

01:55:29

That he was real I'll just tell one of those here

01:55:37

When Mike and I were trying to get our heads straight in Christianity We were doing a couple of Bible studies a week.

01:55:45

We were going to a Coffee cafe with our pastor once a week helping him with questions and the word all the time

01:55:55

Just hungry hungry hungry for the truth Well one night we were doing a

01:56:02

Bible study called experiencing God by Henry Blackaby and In that Bible study it teaches you that God is always at his work.

01:56:12

He's always Evangelizing people. He's always drawing people to Jesus. That's his work, right?

01:56:20

So we were asked in that Bible study to pray God Show me where you're working around me who you're already working with whose heart you were softening toward the gospel

01:56:34

The next day I go into work at the university and I go down this hall and a colleague of mine is sitting in her office and she says

01:56:43

Lynn I dreamed about you last night. Come here. I Go in her office.

01:56:50

She shuts the door and she said I had the most Amazing dream.

01:56:56

Let me tell you and I want you to ask you what you think Well, this was the dream she said you and I went to Washington DC together and we were at a conference and you

01:57:09

Lynn were speaking and This strange voice spoke to me and said what she says you need to hear and where she goes you need to go

01:57:20

So she said I kept trying to get close to you and hear what you had to say

01:57:26

Couldn't keep up with you and So I finally get in a cab and I'm screaming to the cab driver where she does

01:57:33

I need to go what she says I need to hear She says like I the cab driver takes me to where you are and then the doors won't open and I'm Screaming pounding on the doors yelling what she says.

01:57:47

I need to hear where she goes I need to go and so she looks at me and she said what do you think about that dream?

01:57:54

Now, of course, I'm thinking well, I just prayed that prayer the night before but I'm sure this has nothing to do with that I mean,

01:58:01

I didn't know a God that was big enough to answer a prayer like that in such a profound way.

01:58:08

I Walk out of her office and I say well, honestly, I don't know what to think about that Three days later,

01:58:16

I'm sitting in my office Chris and This lady comes and finds me

01:58:24

She comes into my office Shut the door and she said I don't think you understand

01:58:30

I have been praying about a personal relationship with Jesus and I think he's leading me to you.

01:58:41

I Was so moved. I thought God just hit me over the head with a two by four

01:58:48

This is the God that we serve. This one's real. He's not a bunch of rituals and Stuff you say over again and works that you do

01:59:01

This is a real God who? draws us and has a plan for our lives and after those five years of Horrible transition for me that plan began to unfold even this book being birthed was it was a miracle?

01:59:20

I mean What unknown author ever gets to publish with Zondervan and my

01:59:29

Well, we are out of time now Lynn and I look forward to having you back on the program I look forward to God willing your son being on the program and your husband and I want to give your website one more time

01:59:41

It's unveiling Mormonism calm unveiling Mormonism calm. I also want to plug my friend

01:59:46

Jason Wallace's video That's LDS video LDS Dot video.

01:59:53

I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior Than you are a sinner.