Is Christmas a Pagan Holiday?

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Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask.

01:33

We're your host Harrison Kerrigan, Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we'll answer the age -old question, Is Christmas a pagan holiday?

01:41

Now Tim, this is one of those topics that always comes up around Christmas time, and I see this talked about all the time.

01:49

It's brought up a lot by atheists, at least as far as I've seen, which

01:56

I've always thought is pretty curious why they're so concerned about the origins of Christmas.

02:03

But then I also have seen some Christians out there as well bringing up concerns over the origins of the

02:13

Christmas holiday. So, what's the deal with this? Why is this brought up every year, and why does it seem like there's just so much confusion around the origins of this holiday in general?

02:28

Yeah, I think there's obviously a lot of things that are going on that are conspiring to create a situation where people are going to argue about this one.

02:35

But it's obviously kind of difficult to know where to even begin trying to address some of that because there's just concerns that people have in different directions.

02:47

When you look at Christmas, obviously there's a materialism kind of element to it all, and it's been turned into, in some ways it's kind of like a pagan holiday, even now.

02:59

So it's a holiday that's supposed to be devoted to celebrating the birth of Christ, but then for the standard person living in America, this is a time when

03:10

Santa Claus comes and brings presents to people. So you have the Santa Claus kind of mythology that is feeding into the celebration.

03:18

Then you have just the idea that this is a time filled with rampant materialism, and so you have a lot of people who have their white guilt and their white guilt showing in these moments where if they give their kids presents, they're somehow robbing one of those orphans that Sarah McLachlan is singing about in Africa or something like that.

03:41

So I guess just - Tragic. Yep, yeah. You can imagine what I'm talking about there. So this is a time where, in general, people are conflicted about it along those lines, okay?

03:53

So meaning it's just Rudolph, Santa, elves, there's substantial portions of this that have just become commercialized.

04:04

So you have something that's supposed to be about Christ, and then you have all these other pagan superstition rituals that are being put into that.

04:11

So people are interacting with it along those lines. And then you have Christians who are interacting with Christmas, not really sure about its origin so much.

04:22

So what they're doing is they're basically looking at Christmas and they're saying, hey, one, is this like a

04:28

Roman Catholic thing, right? Yeah. That would be just the simplistic way of putting their argument.

04:33

Oh, this was just a Catholic celebration and we're Protestants, and so therefore we don't want anything to do with it.

04:40

So you have that kind of person. Then you have the individuals who are saying, hey, this was one of those things where Christians tried to whitewash pagan celebrations, essentially.

04:54

So in general, I mean, you had different Roman pagan festivals like I think it's called

05:00

Saturnali and Sol Invictus, essentially. So you have these kind of pagan celebrations that seemed to be happening at that time, and maybe this was one of those

05:09

Christians whitewashing those things, trying to Christianize them or whatever. So take the pagan thing and turn it into a

05:16

Christian thing. And so people don't really know how to process that. Is that what happened? And then on the other side of that, then you have

05:23

Christians who are arguing that, no, I mean, actually this celebration is supposed to be where people, like nine months after where people legitimately thought

05:34

Christ was born, right? So you do have a, is this when Christ was born kind of discussion that's live in this as well.

05:42

But then a lot of people think, hey, yeah, no, he was born March 25th, and this is nine months after that.

05:48

So you have that. He was born nine months, meaning in December, right?

05:55

What's that? He was conceived and then born nine months later, meaning

06:01

December. So he was born nine months after the conception. I'm not sure what I said there. But yeah, so some people think that essentially.

06:09

So some people are saying, hey, that's accurate history, like the timetable around it. And then you have the

06:15

King James only kind of person who is looking in the Old Testament, not really understanding the context and saying, hey, look at that.

06:22

They cut down a tree, they made an idol. That sounds like Christmas trees or something like that, right? And so isn't that what we're doing?

06:28

They took the idol and then they decorated it. Aren't we not realizing that was about idols?

06:34

That's not about Christmas trees. Well, I tell you what, I did not expect KJV only to be brought up in this discussion.

06:43

Well, you have a lot of KJV only people who are rejecting it because they're looking at a passage in the

06:48

Old Testament that talks about cutting down a tree and building an idol. And they think that's about Christmas trees.

06:55

Right. Yeah. So I guess, man, I guess it seems like, I guess we've got our work cut out for us in terms of things that we need to talk about.

07:04

So why don't we start with the pagan side of things, meaning there's a lot of people, atheists and Christians who all say that, hey, this holiday, to put it in your words, this holiday has essentially been whitewashed by Christianity.

07:26

It's been taken from the pagans, adopted by Christians, and converted into a totally

07:36

Christian holiday. So, I mean, is that, I guess the big question is just, is that true?

07:44

You know, I don't know how much of the history we need to dive in on all of that, but the underlying question underneath it all is just, is that actually what happened?

07:54

Is that how we got Christmas or no? Well, that's where the debate is.

07:59

And so, I mean, every Christmas you're going to find, you know, half the articles that come out are saying that this is a white, this is a

08:05

Christianized celebration. And then you're going to have like a series of arguments that are being put forward, why that's either okay or wrong, right?

08:12

So, half of the arguments are going to say that. And then the other half of the arguments are going to say, no, this is actually when he was born. And then this was a uniquely

08:19

Christian celebration at that point. And I just say, hey, I don't know. I wasn't there. I don't know, man.

08:27

It's been a long time. It's been a while. Born 2 ,000 years too late to figure that one out.

08:33

I mean, I'm not a Christmas scholar, you know, so I will submit my limitations here as far as that's concerned.

08:39

But I mean, I think, I don't know. There's a case. I've listened to both sides of the cases. And I would just say,

08:45

I mean, I've listened to both cases and I don't know how to distinguish between the two.

08:50

I guess the follow -up question to that would be then, okay, well, you know, either way doesn't matter.

08:59

Yeah. So, and I think that's the better way to go, like to try to answer this kind of question is to say, hey, well,

09:06

I mean, maybe we won't nail down the history precisely. And maybe we don't have the information.

09:12

Like, you know, these are distant events. But then certainly one of the things you have to do is you have to judge what it is at the moment, right?

09:19

So when you're kind of like part of what's happening is you have individuals committing, you know, something akin to the fallacy of origin or something like that.

09:27

And so like you have individuals who are looking at this thing and they're trying to draw like this dark line back to some kind of pagan thing.

09:37

And then they're trying to say, hey, the thing is fundamentally tainted based on some kind of origin that's suspicious in that way.

09:43

And I would just say that that's just a pretty unclear line of moral reasoning, basically.

09:53

Okay, what do you mean? What I mean is just to say that like just you look at what Christmas is right now, what you should be doing is you should be judging it on the basis of what it is for the most part, right?

10:04

So thinking about what we're intending to do right now and what we're trying to accomplish. And then, you know, trying to draw some like dark line back to some sort of suspected pagan origin.

10:16

Like in some sense, I mean, it's just entirely neither here nor there. Like it doesn't even matter how it started. You know, if it started that way and there's people who debate it on both sides, whatever the case is,

10:26

I mean, like it doesn't even really matter. Now, I mean, like the Christian Nationals kind of folks, they would look at that and they would say, hey, let's say that that was it, like these were pagan celebrations and then

10:38

Christians like took them over. They would look at that and they would say, hey, this is an example of Christians exercising dominion over the world, right?

10:46

So Constantine - Right, this is a victory. This is a victory, like we reclaimed those things for Christ or whatever. Like we've successfully, like instead of like at this time gathering together to worship pagan deities, we've decided, like we've changed the culture through God's help in such a way that now like we're, you know, with Constantine taking over and everything else, we're predominantly like the

11:10

Roman Empire is declared Christian at that point and now we're going to have new holidays that are not going to celebrate the pagan stuff.

11:17

They're going to celebrate, you know, Christianity. And I mean, that largely seems like a victory to me. I mean, when you think about it, like if that's what happened, then that largely seemed like a victory.

11:27

But I don't even think it's the kind of thing that you need to really second guess. I mean, I think largely what you should be doing is looking at, hey, what are we doing in the present?

11:36

And it is what we're doing in the present. Does that honor the Lord? And, you know,

11:41

I mean, I think any celebration that you're ever going to have in the history of the world is going to undergo transformation and change over time, right?

11:49

So you can have something that starts out, like Christmas right now, whatever, what it is right now, it's very different than what it started out as, right?

11:55

It's probably gone through several different stages. Petey Wait, you're telling me they didn't have Black Friday back then? Jared Didn't have

12:01

Black Friday, man. Petey Come on, man. Jared Yep. Well, who knows? We may not have that anymore because that's racist, you know?

12:08

Petey Yeah, I always wondered about that. Jared Why has it got to be Black Friday? Petey I mean, that's really stupid if you understand why it's called

12:17

Black Friday, but I wouldn't put it past anyone at this point in time.

12:24

The mythology kind of got imported in there at a certain point, right? So, like, you have the Santa mythology, you have all the reindeers, and you have all that kind of stuff.

12:31

And so, I mean, there's a lot of changes that have happened over time. And, you know, to the standard pagan person celebrating, it definitely means a lot of different things if it's for Christians.

12:42

But, I mean, you know, I think that's a better way to have that discussion is, like, what are we doing right now? Is this what we're doing right now?

12:48

I don't know the Lord. And, you know, whether or not that was a Christian victory over a pagan society at some point in the past,

12:56

I think it's obviously irrelevant. But then on the other side, I mean, you do have people saying, hey, no, this is nine months after the conception of Christ, and so this is accurate time and date and everything else.

13:07

And, you know, yeah, I think you let the historians sort that one out, for sure.

13:13

So, in terms of right now, what the holiday is, would you call it a pagan holiday?

13:19

I mean, for many people, sure. I mean, for many people, what they're actually doing, you know, this is more about, like,

13:26

Santa, reindeer, holidays, Charlie Brown's Christmas special, you know, whatever. I don't even know if they're watching that anymore.

13:32

You know, what is that movie? The Christmas Story. Yeah, the one where he shoots his eye out or whatever. Yeah, The Christmas Story.

13:38

Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, I think that there's a lot of things that go into this right now that are certainly not making it very

13:46

Christ -centered, you know. But to the extent to which, like, here's the issue. I mean, to the extent to which

13:51

Christians have a holiday that is nationally recognized, which is a reminder of Christ, I mean, it seems like that's largely a good thing, right?

13:59

Right. This is a time, I mean, this is a time where all the, you know, nominal Christian pagans will go to church for one of the two times every year, right?

14:08

Yeah. They'll go to church on Christmas Eve and they'll go on Easter.

14:14

And I mean, I think that's largely a good thing. I think these, like, I think, like, I don't know what there is to complain about that.

14:19

I mean, obviously, like, the Israelites, they had holidays. Like, their entire year was centered around certain mandatory feasts which

14:26

God prescribed. And the thing about it is, like, all those feasts, they centered around God's mighty acts in history, right?

14:33

Yeah. So, like, you think about, like, the Passover and, you know, Feast of Booths and all this.

14:39

I mean, like, all these feasts are, like, all these celebrations are centered around God's mighty acts.

14:45

Most specifically, you know, as it corresponds to the events surrounding the Exodus and all that.

14:51

So, like, when you think about what's happening in the Old Testament, the Exodus is, you know, the story of redemption in the

14:58

Old Covenant. Like, that's the example. That's, like, the equivalent of the cross in the New Testament, even though it's nowhere near the same.

15:07

Like, I mean, like, it is pointing to that, though, right? So, it's pointing to that climactic act of redemption in the

15:13

New Covenant where Jesus comes and dies on the cross. Like, so, he's born, he dies on the cross.

15:18

And so, I mean, I think to the extent to where you have national holidays which are remembering these events, like,

15:28

God's climactic act of redemption in history, and we're singing, like, you have even pagans singing

15:34

Christian songs during this time. Yeah, that's the weird part to me is, you know, you'll walk into, like, whatever, you know,

15:44

Walmart or whatever store you're going into and you'll hear, you know, you'll hear a song just straight up mention

15:51

Jesus in there. And it's, like, that's weird, you know, considering the society that we live in right now.

16:00

I almost wonder if people even really think about what those songs are actually talking about at this point.

16:09

I don't think they do. I mean, I think it's some sort of reminder, you know. Like, I mean,

16:14

I think it's some sort of reminder that people have of something that they're trying so hard to suppress.

16:20

But, I mean, thinking about it along those lines, I mean, like, if you have a holiday that's devoted to celebrating certain events in redemptive history, like,

16:31

I think that's largely a good thing. And I think that what we're doing is we're following the pattern that God set in the

16:37

Old Covenant, right? So, God set the same kind of pattern under the terms of the Old Covenant, where these were intended to, like, the celebrations were intended to be reminders of what

16:46

God has done. And there's all sorts of things. I mean, as you read through the Old Testament, what you're going to find is there's all sorts of things like that.

16:53

So, I mean, they would frequently set up monuments to remember God's actions for them in history, right?

17:00

So, you have, like, these monuments that they're setting up. You have, like, these, they name places, you know, centered around what

17:07

God did. You know, they even named their kids, you know, like that. And then they would have holidays centered around that.

17:12

So, I mean, I just think that there's a lot of, like, God has a lot of things prescribed in the

17:17

Old Covenant that were designed to help people remember what He has done for them. And I think just how, like, having, you know, a

17:25

Christian calendar, a Christian holiday, I think that's, with Christian holidays that are centering around God's acts in history,

17:32

I think that's largely good. Like, I think that has a good effect on us. So far as, like, you as a

17:39

Christian are taking those opportunities to think about those things, you know, in a special way.

17:46

Like, that doesn't mean that you don't think about them all the rest of the year, but then, like, insofar as, like, you're using these things as they would be, as God has established in the

17:57

Old Covenant for Christians and Christians do, or for believers, you know, to do, that's,

18:03

I think that's largely a good thing. Yeah, so it's not a bad thing just to say, hey, we're going to have this regular

18:11

Christian holiday. But then, do you think the way our society in general is approaching the holiday is bad?

18:22

Sure, I mean, sure. I think, you know, as you look at our society, they're obviously trying to take Christ out of Christmas as much as they possibly can, but I mean, it's still there, and, like, it's still a reminder.

18:32

And it's one of those things where I don't know what the solution to this is, right, really. I mean, this is one of those inescapable concepts.

18:39

I mean, any culture is going to have holidays. Like, that's the way it works. So, they're going to have to celebrate something. So, it's like, what do you want to happen?

18:46

Do you want, like, the temple of Satan to set up, like, to establish all the holidays for us? Is that what you're really advocating?

18:53

Is it the temple of Satan? Yeah, I would be a hard pass on that, personally. You want them to establish all of our holidays and our mandatory celebrations, so then you get off work for Beelzebub Day or something like that?

19:08

Hey, you know, I mean, you're talking about it. Iowa, I think, I guess it was the state capital of Iowa, they allowed the

19:17

Satanic temple to put up a little statue worshiping Satan, and, like, there's a bunch of conservatives and conservative

19:30

Christians who are, I wouldn't necessarily say applauding it as if they're wholeheartedly in support of the

19:39

Satanic temple, but they're the ones who are very much, like, freedom of religion, let everyone, you know, worship who they please, build the mosque for them kinds of people, who are celebrating the fact that the

19:58

Satanic temple is allowed to put their idol up in a state capital building.

20:04

Yeah, whoever that guy was, I can't remember who the guy was who made the post about it, but then everyone was ragging him about, like, allowing it or whatever, and I think some lady came and, you know, sabotaged it or something like that.

20:17

Good! They should tear it down. And then they gave him even a more difficult time, because it was a lady who had the courage to do what he didn't have to do, so he deserved it.

20:28

But, yeah, no, I don't know what people want. Do you want Satan holidays? So, I mean, the idea of having holidays is kind of an inescapable concept.

20:36

Every culture is going to have days like that, so do you want them to be centered around God's mighty acts in history, or do you want them to be centered around, you know, just superstitious and pagan worship, you know, worship of demons, so I don't know what you want there.

20:51

So, I mean, I think Christmas is largely a good thing, and, you know,

20:58

I think the Christians who are reacting against it as if that's just like a Roman Catholic thing,

21:03

I think what those Christians are just so disconnected from history to the point where they don't realize that, like, the true church has always existed in all times and all places.

21:14

And, you know, so anything that happened before, like, two days ago, that wasn't, like, just a Catholic thing or something like that.

21:22

So, like, there's been a long history of things that have gone on. But, I mean, I think, yeah, in general, the

21:27

Bible has a lot to say about gift -giving. God is a, you know, God gives us gifts that we don't deserve.

21:33

He delights to give us good things. You even have, under the old covenant, the

21:39

Israelites were told to set aside 10 % of their income for the yearly feast in order to eat whatever they want, right?

21:46

So, if they didn't, they could bring, like, 10 % of their stuff and eat it there, and if it's too long to travel, convert it to money and buy whatever they want and celebrate.

21:54

So, I mean, I think these times of feasting, celebration, gift -giving, I mean, there's biblical precedent for that.

22:01

I don't think you have to apologize for that. I don't think you have to feel like you're robbing, you know, the starving orphans in Africa by lavishing your kids with gifts.

22:10

Now, at the same time, I mean, like, you do have to – I mean, it is important,

22:16

I think, to put some thought into, you know, like, you don't want to go into debt to do all this stuff. Yeah, don't pull out the credit cards.

22:23

Don't be pulling out the credit cards. In the name of giving gifts. Don't, like – But I had to buy the frankincense and myrrh.

22:30

Sure, sure. Where else is the gold going to come from except my gold credit card?

22:37

Yeah, so I just think that there's obviously principles of giving and receiving that are relevant here and turning it into a time where you get gifts and presents.

22:47

I don't see why you even need to remotely apologize for anything along those lines. But then

22:53

I think it's a great time to remember what Jesus has done for us. We need more things like that, not less things like that.

22:59

So now, I mean, at the same time, it's like, yeah, like, when do we sit down and think intentionally about the, you know, the incarnation in particular, right?

23:08

And so, I think, you know, typically we don't. And so, I think, yeah, this is obviously a good time to think intentionally about those things.

23:16

I don't think we have to apologize for it. I think it's largely good. Well, and that kind of leads me into the last question I had for you, which is, you know, obviously we are faced with a society that totally rejects

23:27

Jesus in every way, and wants to try and hijack Christmas and make it something that it's not meant to be.

23:36

So, what would your advice be to Christians, especially Christian parents, in terms of, you know, how do we, as much as possible, make the

23:50

Christmas holiday time specifically about Jesus? You know, what are practical ways that we can actually, you know, refocus back on Christ and think specifically about His birth in the name of, you know, trying to fight back against society's pressures on the holiday?

24:17

Yeah, I mean, I think society obviously has a bunch of pressures on it, but I mean, I think to the extent to which you can include scripture during that time, the more, you know,

24:28

Bible you can get during that time, the more that you're using this as a time to teach your kids about these events, which are so significant to our faith.

24:37

I mean, there's a lot of, I mean, you can set up an Advent reading schedule where you're reading different passages, you know, at different days and different times.

24:44

We go to, like, the thing is, I mean, we have, I mean, there's a lot of pagan versions of these things, right?

24:50

To where you have, like, little calendars set up where little stuffed animals are moving each day closer and closer to the presence and things like that.

24:59

I mean, you can do something similar like that with, like, the Bible, like, thinking about, like, here's what we're going to be reading today, like, in preparation of this, you know, set up a routine.

25:08

Set up routines that are centered around the Bible, getting the Bible into your kid's head during that time and teach them about giving gifts, teach them about how to receive gifts, right?

25:19

Teach them a theology thing. Why are we doing this, right? What is this about?

25:25

And so, these are just natural moments that you could bridge to talking about things that are ultimate and matter more than things that point to it.

25:34

And so, I mean, I don't think you have to, like, throw it all out. I think you can use it as a time to enjoy being around family, having time off work, right?

25:44

Yeah. Giving gifts to, I mean, it's like, the holidays are good times. I don't think you have to, like, turn everything into just a, it needs to be like a seven -day, you know, worship service from start to finish with nothing, you know, joy happening or whatever else.

26:01

I mean, that's not what the Old Testament feasts were about, right? They were also about the stuff that our holidays are about too, which is, like, food and family and, you know, being together, all these things.

26:13

So, I think that, I think largely a lot of what we're doing is fine. Like, it's fine and good and it serves a useful function.

26:20

Just find out ways to point it to Jesus more than what we're doing probably too. And, you know,

26:26

I definitely wouldn't turn it into a time where you lie to your kids about Santa Claus or something like that. Like, I mean, that's, yeah, if you want to shoot yourself in the foot, then go for it, you know?

26:36

Celebrate it like a good pagan and lie to your kids and teach them to lie to everyone around them. But, I mean, I think, like, this is about Jesus, so it's fine to make it, it's fine to let it be what it is, you know?

26:47

Okay, well, I think that's a good place for us to wrap up the conversation. And certainly, it's good to think about these things as the holidays are, you know,

26:57

I mean, they're happening right now. And Christmas, like we talked about during the episode, it is certainly a time that, you know, society tries to, it tries to focus on seemingly all the wrong things at this time of year.

27:11

And so, it's good for us as Christians especially to think through, hey, how do we intentionally go about celebrating this holiday and not losing sight of what it's truly about, what we're actually celebrating here.

27:26

So, thank you for that, Tim, and explaining all that. We want to thank all you guys as well out there who support us week in and week out, who support us by interacting with us on social media, by giving to us financially through Patreon.

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