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November 6, 2018:
ANDY WOODARD, Lead Pastor @ New Covenant Church NYC, will address:
“CHURCH PLANTING: In Search of the Most BIBLICAL Approach”
Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host, Chris Arnson.
Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this sixth day of November 2018.
And first of all, let me urge you, if you are a Bible-believing Christian, you love the Lord, you follow his precepts as best as you can on this earth with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, then I urge you to go out and vote.
If you are a liberal or leftist or apostate or unbeliever, stay home, please stay home. But I am so, uh, glad that we have returning to our program today, Andy Woodard, the lead pastor of New Covenant Church, NYC in Manhattan.
And today we are going to be addressing church planting in search of the most biblical approach. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Andy Woodard.
Hey Chris, thanks so much for having me on the air.
And let me right away give our email address if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question, especially in regard to church planting. Since Andy is a pastor, we can broaden the spectrum of questions, uh, because if they have, if you have a pastoral question, we obviously wouldn't want to stop Andy from answering your question, especially if you don't have your own pastor.
Uh, but if you especially have a question about church planting, maybe you're a pastor yourself, or maybe you're an elder, a deacon, or someone involved in church planting. We would love to hear from you at chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.
Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter. Before we go into the subject at hand, church planting in search of the most biblical approach, please tell our listeners once again about New Covenant Church, NYC.
Yeah, thanks. Um, our church was started about a year and a couple months ago. The church meets in the Midtown, Ramercy neighborhood, and, um, and, um, this last Sunday, uh, two days ago, we had, uh, 25 people, I believe, and, um, we're not, we're not really that concerned about numbers, but that's just letting y 'all know how things are going.
Um, the Lord is blessed and things have worked as well. Um, yeah, so I'm, I'm very thankful for how.
Things are going. Great. Well, you are in the area of, uh, another friend of mine who's a pastor. Have you gotten to meet yet the Reverend Jacob Smith, who is rector at St. George's Episcopal Church, which is actually a low church, Calvinistic, conservative, biblically faithful congregation.
I don't know if you've ever met him or heard of him yet.
Yeah, I've, uh, I've met him, uh, I think I was in his office maybe a year ago. Um, yeah. And, uh, I attend a small group Bible study that, uh, meets in St. George's, uh, building.
Yeah, I had a fascinating tour by Reverend Jacob years ago. Uh, that, uh, church is, was founded by Stephen Ting, a, a low church Calvinist in the 19th century and, uh, a very biblically faithful pastor.
And I'm glad that Reverend Jacob has taken up the mantle and sought to brought that congregation back to its biblical roots. But, uh, first of all, let me also remind our listeners if they, if they want to find out more about New Covenant Church, NYC, uh, the website is ncc .nyc, NCC for New Covenant Church, dot NYC for New York City.
And, uh, we hope that you visit there if you live in Manhattan or if you're even visiting Manhattan on vacation. And I know a lot of people across the world who are listening to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, uh, go and visit Manhattan since it seems to be a hub of activity, uh, that people around the world want to be involved in in some way, shape or form, whether it's through their businesses or whether it's through, uh, arts and entertainment and fine dining or whatever you might, uh, go to Manhattan for, please consider New Covenant Church NYC.
Now, uh, before we go into the subject in a deeper way, uh, let's get a definition laid down on church planting because as you probably know, there are Christians who have and still do, uh, leave a congregation where they are either a member or perhaps they were never a member of a congregation and then they've just bounced around, uh, and they are disgruntled in some way, they are displeased whether for right reasons or for wrong reasons, and they will leave a church and they will get together with a group of people, uh, their friends likely to begin with and say, let's start a church, and they will rent out a hotel or some space, they might even meet in somebody's home, and they will just on their own, uh, without any approval or sanction or blessing, uh, of an actually established church, they will begin their own church.
Is that a proper way to plant a church in your opinion, Bidlickly?
Yeah, um, that is not what we did. That, um, that new Christian and that recognized that it was God's will for this church, so I asked for their approval, for their willingness to be the sending church, and in, uh, good Baptist style, I took a congregational vote and, and, um, yeah, so that's, that's what we did, and that's what you see in Acts chapter 13 when, uh, the Apostles, um, or in the church in Antioch is gathered to worship and the Lord says, the Holy Spirit says, set apart, uh, Barnabas and Saul for the work that I've, uh, yet at the same time scenarios, it is able, or we definitely imagine scenarios in 17, a church to be found that is, um, able to answer send churches.
So I don't want to be too harsh or too dogmatic about saying you absolutely always, always must have a sending church, but I would say, if at all possible, you should. You should seek a biblical, and if that's really, truly, genuinely impossible, then obey God, which, you know, God commands us to be in, I think it'd be better to start a church in your.
Living room than to not. Right, and of course, it even gets more complicated and more likely that, uh, a church would begin on its own without the sanction of another church if it's in an area overseas, uh, where you have perhaps even Sharia law going on and it has to be an underground church or another place where Christianity is just so very rare, and, and there's no church that you are aware of willing to, uh, be involved in the planting of that church.
Even in, even in Japan, I understand there's less than 1 of the population that's Christian, so. Yeah, I think there's an.
Issue related to all this that is, troubles me because it involves what I would consider my tribe, and that is, um, like, there's the Reformed Baptist, conservative, um, regulative principle type people, and that is, well, the less, the less willing they are to be ascending church churches, and so, like, cautious, even to the extent of, of building up extra-biblical requests, and because they don't want to be the founder of a new cult, getting to know someone as a church planter before they'll send them out.
Biblical, faithful Christians in foreign places that don't have the oversight of a biblical church. You know, I've gotten these off-the-wall emails from people, too, where they're like, hey, I found you online, I live in some random country, and, um, can we, can we work together?
And usually my answer is no, I don't know you, and it's a bit of a stretch for.
Me to be able to take on. Yeah, my friend, Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries, he does various types, he's involved in various types of public outreach, evangelism, and so on, years ago to a much larger degree with the Mormons in both Salt Lake City, Utah, and Arizona, and he has had people approach him who say, hey, can we help you pass out tracts and, and help you evangelize, pass out Bibles, whatever you're doing, and Dr. White's first question is, where are you a member, what church are you a member of, and if the person says, well, I'm not a member anywhere, he says, I'm sorry, you can't participate with us in that fashion, because you are in disobedience to God.
So, the membership in the local church is a very important thing, in fact, I have been trying to remember every day for a while to remind our listeners that if they are not a member of a local Bible-believing church, and they're not prayerfully looking for one, they are indeed living in disobedience, and you can email me at chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com, if you cannot find a church near you, I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the world, and I have already helped quite a number of people find churches near them, even as far away as Perth, Australia, and I'm so glad that the couple who listen to Iron Trip and Zion Radio from Perth reached out to me, asking do I know of a church in Perth, and I do, I do indeed know of one, because the Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America planted one in Perth just recently, and it was very providential that this individual in my audience was to ask me that right after the planting of that church.
So, but anyway, and of course, you have, if you live in Manhattan, you have New Covenant Church NYC that you should at least visit to prayerfully consider joining that church if you have no church of your own.
So, now bring us to the definition of church planting that you believe is most biblical, and tell us also about the different methodologies and ideologies with which you've been confronted that have, you know, given you reason to compare and contrast the different approaches that are out there.
Yeah, start with the definition of a church,.
And then we'll work with a church. That's a better idea, yeah, go ahead. Yeah, because you can also just replace the word starting a church, and our end goal is a church. That's what we want to have established, so then the process is just...
We believe that a church is a group of baptized believers united in covenant to be the church and to do what churches are commanded to do in Scripture. So there's intentionality in that. Um, as believers, so they've got to be professing Christians.
We believe in regenerate church membership. And then united, so they're committed to each other intentionally. They know that they're committed. They're not just joining by osmosis or, you know, they just kind of walk sometimes.
You know, like, that's a stigma, like, in churches where nobody knows who the members are, and people just sort of drift in and drift out. So a group of baptized believers united in covenant to be the church.
So they know this is a church. They don't think it's just a Bible study, like a young adults Bible study, or a men's group, or a women's group, or a covenant. So they're united to be the church, and then to do the things that Scripture commands.
I think that we really, for creativity, you know, creativity is a good thing, but I think the church is described for us in Scripture, and it's not up to our imaginations to figure out what it's to be, and what a church is supposed to do.
So that definition leads to the question we believe Scripture commands the church to do, and those are evangelism, discipleship, practicing church leadership, that being elders and deacons, biblical preaching and teaching, but we're accountability and discipline and giving and missions.
Noticeably absent are things like painting the park and digging wells in foreign countries. Not that it's a bad thing to do those things, but those things are outside of what Scripture commands the church to do.
So back to our definition, though, like, if it's to do, then the way you start a church is by getting a group of baptized. That uniting in covenant under a membership covenant is actually kind of interesting that we're on the radio today, because the last Sunday of the month of November is our one-year anniversary of covenanting.
Wow. So a year ago, at the end of November. When you're listening to church-planting language, there are certain types, and even regard for Scripture, that will use the language of our church covenanted on such-and-such day.
And then there are other people, which is kind of the mainstream, who will say our church launched on a certain day. There's really, like, two different sets of language and sets of definitions and ideologies and philosophies that are kind of the standard in the church-planting world today, and the one is from the church marketing movement and the seeker-sensitive church growth movement, and then the other, I believe, is last month, and the two could not have been more different from each other.
Well, why don't you give an.
Outline of one and then follow with an outline of the other that you saw at these two different, radically different, conferences, and then we'll get into a comparison between those two, not only with each other, but with the Scriptures, most importantly.
Yeah. The sermon titles were the We. The speaker did not speak against charity.
And that is probably the very last thing on the minds of those planting a church, I should say, on the minds of most of those planting a church.
Yeah, and there's a lot of reasons for that. They come down to very, very practical things, like you have to be able to pay the rent, and if you can't pay the rent on your apartment, you're in big trouble.
Speaking, your funding gets cut. That produces and the marriages of these, so they have to produce results. Okay, well, you know, we only have so much money available for church planting, and you're not, you know, you're not producing, therefore we're going to send our money to someone who is.
Simply overhaul that is the standard today in New York City and.
Across, yeah. Well, so you had the Nine Marks, that's a very short summary of what they presented at their conference, so I don't know if you want to continue with the Nine Marks model, or if you want to move on now to the...
Yeah, let me talk about that just a little more. We had.
The second one that I listed there was Define the We Defining the Church. That one was, these two points of the sermon was on the gospel, and do your people unique, and that being the gospel, in order to have an affinity group church.
So you can gather an affinity group together for any sort of purpose, whether it's a bowling club, or NASCAR, or trains, or something, and get together. You know, you can certainly say, well, we're going to New York, and you say, we're going to put the liberty and the barriers.
It's not the design your church, and whether that be the black community, or the white planting a church, people that are in that area. And obviously, there can be language barriers, which same language in the gospel.
The gospel, you do not blur those lines between the believer and the unbeliever. By Redeemer City, who was speaking, was this, the lead pastor, getting people to come inside the wall, and then once they're inside, then you are to equip them, and then to send them, and get the people who are outside to come in, and be part of the end.
And she was saying that that's bad. And I was like, no, that's a good diagram that had no barriers, no boundaries at all. I'm sure you can't prove it. I want to volunteer to. Sorry. They've got, just like, I'm about to, like, go through the roof here, sitting on my hands, and just, like, biting my tongue, and this is, this came over, and because he knew that I have a gospel.
That's a very common thing with many churches, even evangelical ones,.
Where they are more concerned with the professional quality of the music than they are of the state, the spiritual state of the one singing or playing an instrument. Yeah, yeah, and that's,.
My knowledge, that's what all of the churches being planted today are doing, in New York City, anyway. They're, they don't really ask too many people to sing the songs, and leading the congregation in worship of God actually believes in the God that they're singing about.
I think that's a huge problem, because what you've got at the root of all of this is unbelief. You have unbelievers leading you. You have the one who's planning this whole thing, who's planning the church, organizing the church, who seems to not believe that the gospel really is salvation, that you need something other than the gospel to build the church, to grow the church, to unite the church, and to hold the church.
So you have to go, then, to, um, all of these surveys say this, and the culture, and it's, like, the Golden Cap of Art, where they'll have, like, a network of churches that are all in, of the same name, and the same theology, and philosophy, and in the same city, but then, sorry, I, I misspoke.
They don't have the same theology, but they're all the same brand. So they have, but then they'll say, each church is contextualized to its community, but practically speaking, here in New York City, what that means is that the church that is in, um, the heart of, like, the gay community, well, that church is open, and the church, which, for those who don't know, open and affirming means pro-gay, they don't think that it's a problem, that you don't need to repent from homosexuality.
And they don't even all agree on.
Issues like monogamy, and, uh, sex outside of, now that same-sex marriage is legal, and I believe in every state, I might be wrong, but, uh, some would require marriage, uh, even though we wouldn't view it as a real marriage, some would require some kind of a monogamous, uh, commitment before they have sex, but they're not all agreed on that, you know, because they're not even basing what they believe and do upon the scriptures anyway.
Yeah, and so what they're doing is, it's like sticking their finger in the air to feel which direction the wind is blowing, and then saying, okay, that's the direction it's going, therefore that's the direction we're going to go, and that's, that's pervasive, that's everywhere, and, um, so if you think that your small group leader who's, like, leading your weekly Bible study needs to be a Christian, um, you might have a hard time finding a church, or if you think that the music leader needs to be a Christian, you're going to have a hard time finding that here in this city.
Um, two very different ways, and because of the prominence of the founder of Tim Keller, many people think that, um, oh, it must be solid because, you know, it's associated.
With Tim Keller. And of course many others would draw a completely different conclusion for the.
Same reason. Yeah, yeah, and so the issue, though, is where you see something above the surface, but there's a lot, and I'm troubled because a little bit, I only know a few stories, I only know history, having people who are former staff members of, of just mind-boggling.
It's really based on philosophy that is based on pragmatism and cultural anthropology.
Well, we have to go to our first break right now, and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c-h-r-i-s-a-r-n-z-e-n at gmail .com.
Please give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence, your country of residence, if you live outside the USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves personal and private matter.
Don't go away, God willing, we will be right back with Pastor Andy Woodard on Church Planting, Finding the Biblical Methodology.
James White here, co-founder of Alpha and Omega Ministries and occasional guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. I'm so delighted. My friend Chris Arnzen will be heading down to Atlanta for the next G3 Conference from January 17th to the 19th, 2019, where I'll be joining a very impressive lineup of speakers on the theme, A Biblical Understanding of Missions.
Speakers include John Piper, Steve Lawson, Bodhi Baucom, Mark Dever, Conrad Mbewe, Phil Johnson, Josh Bice, yours truly, and many more. I hope you all join Chris and me for this phenomenal event. For more details, go to g3conference .com.
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My name is Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries, as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier Ministries. I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the doctor of ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.
I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor. It's called New Covenant Church, NYC. They are a Reformed Baptist church that meets in Midtown Manhattan.
You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www .ncc .nyc. They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel. If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching, in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit New Covenant Church, NYC.
Again, their information can be found at www .ncc .nyc. Have a great day.
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We are discussing church planting in search of the most biblical approach. We do have an anonymous listener who has a question for you already, who says, how are we to approach those that are self-ordained pastors who are shepherding churches that they have planted in a way that is not according to the scriptures, in a way that you did not recommend in the outset of the program?
Are we to give them the same level of respect that you would give a pastor, should other pastors recognize them as colleagues in ministry? How do we approach this situation? I kind of have a growing.
Interacting with other pastors, that my time is limited, and I only have so many hours in a day and days in a week and all that. When I'm invited to conference in the city, I do that sort of thing. I mean, sometimes it doesn't fit in my calendar.
I could make it fit in my calendar. I think it's going to be... So, I mean, obviously not everybody is happening on a weekly basis that you could just book your calendar full of pastors' meetings, but I mean, I think you obviously should be respectful, self-minded, biblically.
Maybe over time you can be able to influence some of these church philosophies and methodologies and strategies. And so, like, that meeting that I went to by Redeemer, that was promoted, and the reason for that is because they acknowledge that it's not working as well as it used to.
Therefore, they want to improve, and the church is not. Maybe in time. Usually it's well-intentioned. The desire is to reach people. You don't show you want to reach people, but if they see your... of people being converted, joining your church, committed body of believers that are... end-of-the-year giving campaign comes into giving to your church.
I think if you do that over time, it will be compelling. We'll see that. Why is your church more stable? Why is your church by your congregation? So I think if you combine patience, distance, but I think some of the people...
Right. I don't know how much this is connected with what you just said. I think it is very connected. But I have, as you know, an annual pastors' luncheon. I actually am now at the stage where I'm doing at least two a year.
And my next one, by the way, for everyone listening who is a man in ministry leadership. I'm having our next pastors' luncheon, God willing, on Thursday, January 3rd, 2019 at the Carlisle Fire and Rescue Banquet Hall.
And our speaker, God willing, is going to be Dr. Tony Costa. And he is professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. But when I have these events, I only invite men. And that actually got...
I don't know if you're aware, that got me in a bit of trouble on Facebook. A swarm of feminists began attacking me in writing for only inviting men to the pastors' luncheon. And there were female clerics in the all over the Cumberland County area making all kinds of slanderous accusations against me.
They were saying that I did this because I was not... I had no self-control sexually. That was one reason that I didn't want women there. One black female cleric said that I must be a racist also. And when I challenge these people about slandering me in public, who don't even know who I am, based on the fact that I believe in exclusively male leadership.
But even an egalitarian can have an event that's only for men or for women. I mean, it's really nonsensical. But when I invite men in the ministry, I extend the invitations to evangelicals. I don't go out of my way to invite liberal mainline ministers or Roman Catholic priests or Eastern Orthodox priests or rabbis.
But if they show up, I'm not going to escort them to the door. Even if a female pastor, which I believe is oxymoronic, sorry for that folks. But even if a female pastor shows up, I'm not going to make her leave.
But the invitation, the free invitation is only extended to those who are evangelical. Now, I'm assuming that what you were just saying is somewhat connected to that. And that you don't want to necessarily say, well, I'm not going to even associate in any way with a self-ordained man who claims to be a pastor and has planted a church without any blessing or sanction or involvement from another congregation.
That doesn't, you shouldn't do that extreme. Doesn't mean that you have to have them.
Preach in your pulpit when you're on vacation. Yeah. I mean, I have a friend who as such did not have, he were either theology or else he hadn't been in them long enough. And, you know, you, you could definitely say, well, okay, he was too young and he should have stayed with, but I don't know all the ins and outs of that.
And perhaps they're not interested in all of that, but on Long Island, um, I mean, congregation called him. They said, yeah, we want to start this church. Now they didn't have other people saying it, but it was a group of believers coming together.
I don't necessarily. And of course, that brings up the issue of.
Patience. Uh, there is no reason really for people to fool heartedly rush into things, uh, and, and basically be primate, uh, pragmatic and compromise on biblical truth just because they want something to happen more quickly than it is developing.
Uh, so, uh, that's just one thing to consider, but we are, we are going to continue our discussion on this issue, uh, on church planting, finding the most biblical approach. And if you'd like to join us with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.
C H R I S A R N Z E N M. I was, I just got a email from a listener and I almost forgot the spelling of my own last name. Uh, C H R I S R N Z E N at gmail .com. And we will get to you, all of you who have been sending in emails, uh, as long as the Lord enables us regarding time, but we will get to each of you, uh, one by one if possible.
Uh, but, uh, please, as always give us your first name, your city and state and your country of residence. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. And we look forward to hearing from you and your questions for, for Andy Woodard at chrisarnson at gmail .com.
And by the way, this is the longer than normal break because Grace Life Radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida. Uh, they have to localize Iron Trip and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida. So they use this time to air their own public service announcements and their own commercials.
So please be patient with us and use this time to write down the information provided by my advertisers and sponsors so that you can more frequently and more successfully patronize them because we rely upon our advertisers to exist.
We rely upon their advertising dollars. Uh, so please write down the information that they provide. Also send in a question to Andy Woodard at chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. God willing, we're going to be back after these messages from our sponsors.
Tired of box store Christianity of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert. Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship? And how about the preaching? Perhaps you've begun to think that in depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island.
Well, there's good news. Wedding River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience featuring the systematic exposition of God's word. And this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you.
Call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service times 631 -929 -3512 or check out their website at.
Wrbc .us. That's wrbc .us. I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries. The New American Standard Bible is perfect for daily reading or in-depth study used by pastors, scholars and everyday readers. The NASB is widely embraced and trusted as a literal and readable Bible translation.
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Hi, Phil Johnson here. I'm executive director of John MacArthur's media ministry Grace to You and I'm also an occasional guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. So I'm delighted that my friend Chris and I will be heading down to Atlanta for the G3 conference where I'll be joining James White, Steve Lawson, Vodie Baucom, Mark Dever, Conrad Mbewe, Todd Friel, Josh Bice and a host of other speakers to address the topic of biblical understanding of missions.
Chris Arnzen and I hope to see you all at this very important conference from January 17th through the 19th. Make sure you stop by the Iron Sharpens Iron exhibitors booth to say hi to Chris. For more details, go to g3conference .com.
That's g3conference .com. See you there.
Hello, my name is James Renahan, and I'm the president of IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas. The Word of God says, if a man desires the office of an overseer, he desires a good thing. Do you have the desire to serve Jesus Christ in pastoral ministry?
Twenty years ago, the Institute of Reformed Baptist Studies at Westminster Seminary, California was born. For those two decades, these institutions worked together to train men for ministry in Reformed Baptist churches.
It's been a wonderful partnership. Now we have advanced our school into an independent seminary offering a full program of courses leading to the Master of Divinity degree. This is IRBS Theological Seminary.
We believe that the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are the inspired and inerrant Word of God, that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh who came to save sinners by his life, death, and resurrection, and that the task of the church is to honor and serve the triune God in all things.
IRBS Theological Seminary is dedicated by God's grace to preparing godly ministers who will be committed to these doctrines. Do you sense a call to serve Jesus Christ and his church as a pastor? Why not consider IRBS Theological Seminary?
You'll find more information at irbsseminary .org. That's irbsseminary .org, two S's in the middle. I hope to hear from you soon. God bless you.
Chris Sorensen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here. I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years. His name is Dan Buttafuoco. Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind.
Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself. Recently, he wrote a book titled Consider the Evidence for the Bible. Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword. Dan also has a master's degree in theology.
Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states. He represents many Christians in serious injury matters all over the country. Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer. He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy, and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for $1 million or more, and in approximately 10 different states.
In Illinois, his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history. In New York, his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the Law Journal. If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state, I recommend that you call Dan.
Consultations are free. There is no fee unless you win. Dan Buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878. 1 -800 -669 -4878. Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail .com. That's chrisarnson at gmail .com.
Every day at thousands.
Of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops, and local hangouts, Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need Jesus. We are rural and urban, and we are always about the message of Jesus.
Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following Christ. Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959.
We have a world-class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world. Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future.
Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above. For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385 -8333. That's 631 -385 -8333.
Or visit liyfc .org. That's liyfc .org. My name is Steve Lawson, founder and president of One.
Passion Ministries, as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier Ministries. I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the doctor of ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles. I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.
It's called New Covenant Church, NYC. They are a Reformed Baptist church that meets in Midtown Manhattan. You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www .ncc .nyc. They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.
If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching, in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit New Covenant Church, NYC. Again, their information can be found at www .ncc .nyc.
Have a great day.
God and Patty specialize in supplying Reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them affordable to everyone. Since 1987, the family owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available Christian books and Bibles at the best possible prices.
Unlike other book sites, they make no effort to provide every book that is available because frankly, much of what is being printed is not worth your time. That means you can get to the stuff faster. It also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical, and otherwise faith insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors.
Their website is www .cvbbs .com. Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure, and purchase with confidence as Todd and Patty work in service to you, the church, and to Christ. That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at cvbbs .com.
That's cvbbs .com. Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
And you can call cvbbs .com at their toll-free number 800 -656 -0231. 800 -656 -0231. You can call that number Monday through Friday from 10 a .m. to 4 30 p .m. Eastern Time. If you mention Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, not only will you receive free shipping on any order of at least $50, you'll also receive the free book Always Reforming by David Engelsma, a publication of Reform Free Publishing Association.
You'll get that absolutely free of charge with an order of $50 or more if you mention Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We just have a few announcements to make before we return to Andy Woodard.
First of all, please mark your calendars for tomorrow, Wednesday, November 7th from 4 to 6 p .m. Eastern Time. We have returning as a guest to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Harry Reeder, and he is going to be discussing his book, 3D Leadership, Defining, Developing, and Deploying Christian Leaders Who Can Change the World.
That's tomorrow, 4 to 6 p .m. Eastern Time here on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Harry Reeder returns as a guest. Then tomorrow night, don't forget that my friend David Wood, who is an apologist specializing in exchanging debate with Muslims and atheists, but I think primarily Muslims, he is going to be debating Muhammad Hijab tomorrow night and that is going to be held at 6 p .m. and that will be held at the York College of Performing Arts in Jamaica, New York City.
David Wood is really a remarkable person. I think that he could be accurately described as having a photographic memory and he knows the Koran cover to cover and I would urge you to attend this if you are at all capable and bring Muslim friends with you.
For more details on this event, you can call New York Apologetics at 866 -323 -3336, 866 -323 -3336, and you can also go to NewYorkApologetics .com and the words New York are spelled out, they are not abbreviated.
Then this weekend, Friday and Saturday, I, God willing, will be in Quakertown, Pennsylvania at the Grace Bible Fellowship Church of Quakertown that's Friday, November 9th, and Saturday, November 10th for the annual Quakertown Conference on Reformed Theology.
The theme is the Glory of the Cross and the speakers include David Garner, Ray Ortlund, Richard Phillips, Timothy Gibson, and Carlton Winn, and I hope that you see me during a break or multiple breaks, Manning and Iron Sharpens Iron exhibit his booth there.
If you'd like to register, go to AllianceNet .org, AllianceNet .org, click on events, and then scroll down to Quakertown Conference on Reformed Theology, that's this Friday and Saturday, November 9th and the 10th at Grace Bible Fellowship Church, Quakertown, Pennsylvania.
Then, coming up in January, the G3 Conference returns to Atlanta, Georgia, technically College Park, Georgia, a suburb of Atlanta, at the Georgia International Convention Center, and the theme this January is the Mission of God, a Biblical Understanding of Missions.
The roster is just as long and just as impressive as it always is. We have speaking there, God willing, James White, John Piper, Stephen Lawson, who you just heard in a commercial for New Covenant Church NYC.
We have Mark Dever, we have Vody Baucom, we have Conrad M. Bayway, Tim Challies, Phil Johnson, we have Stephen J. Nichols, the president of Reformation Bible College in Sanford, Florida, the college founded by the late R .C. Sproul and Ligonier Ministries, and many more people are on that roster of speakers.
If you would like to join me there, go to G3Conference .com, G3Conference .com, it's being held Thursday, January 17th through Saturday, January 19th, and there is a Spanish-speaking edition of the conference on Wednesday, January 16th, so tell your Spanish-speaking and bilingual friends about the Spanish-speaking edition of the G3 Conference.
I strongly urge you, if you have a church, parachurch ministry, or business that you want to promote to a very large group of people, I strongly urge you to register for an exhibitor's booth at the G3 Conference, just like I will be manning, because they are expecting between 4 ,000 and 5 ,000 people to attend this January at the G3 Conference, so please tell them that you heard about that event from Chris Arnes on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.
Last but not least, there's another event I am attending. This will be my first time attending the Deep South Founders Conference in Laurel, Mississippi, January 24th through the 26th at Bethlehem Baptist Church in Laurel, Mississippi.
I am so delighted that I am going to be witness for two conferences in a row, featuring my dear friend, Dr. Conrad Mbewe, pastor of Kibwata Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia, Africa. I believe he's the most powerful preacher alive on the planet Earth.
He is the keynote speaker at the Deep South Founders Conference, January 24th through the 26th, and he is going to be joined by, God willing, Rusty Reed, Gerald Henderson, Jason Goodwin, and Bobby Crenshaw.
The theme is sanctification. If you would like to join me there at the Deep South Founders Conference, go to deepsouthfounders .com, deepsouthfounders .com. Last but not least, if you love Iron Trip and Zion Radio, you do not want us to disappear from the airwaves, you love the guests and topics that we feature that very often are never heard anywhere else, and you love sharing the free mp3s with your family, friends, and loved ones, please consider prayerfully going to irontripandzionradio .com, click support, then click to donate now.
You could donate to Iron Trip and Zion Radio instantly with a debit or credit card, and you could also send in a check the old-fashioned way if that makes you feel more comfortable, to the address that will appear on your screen when you click support at irontripandzionradio .com.
Please, as I always try to remind you, never siphon money away from your regular giving that you're accustomed to to your local church in order to give to Iron Trip and Zion Radio. Never put your family in financial jeopardy by giving to Iron Trip and Zion Radio.
Those two things are commands of God providing for church and home, providing for my radio show is never a command of God, but if you are financially blessed above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands, then please prayerfully consider giving as heavily as you can and as frequently as you can to irontripandzionradio .com, click support, then click click to donate now.
If you'd like to advertise with me, just send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put advertising in the subject line, and as long as whatever it is you are promoting is compatible with what we believe, you don't have to believe identically with me, but you just need to be promoting something compatible with what I believe, then please feel free to send me an email, chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put advertising in the subject line, and we would love to help you launch an ad campaign as quickly as possible because we surely do need the advertising dollars.
In fact, I would appreciate your prayers because there was a radio station on Long Island, New York. This is completely separate and apart from the Iron Trip and Zion Radio program. As many of you know, I am an independent advertising agent and a radio station out on Long Island where I had clients hosting programs was recently bought out by an organization that wants to exclusively play Bollywood Indian dance music, and therefore those clients are obviously going off the air on that radio station, and I am losing income as a result.
So please pray that that money is restored somehow, hopefully through advertisers and also generous, benevolent listeners of Iron Trip and Zion Radio. We also want you to send in an email if you'd like to ask a question to our guest Andy Woodard, it's chrisarnson at gmail .com, c-h-r-i-s-a-r-n-z-e-n at gmail .com, and please as always give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the USA, and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
Let's see here, we have Bebe in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who asks, I know very godly women who I believe are, their intentions are absolutely correct, but they have disobeyed scripture by entering into pastoral ministry.
The ones that I know personally are not liberal, they're not leftists or apostates, they believe in the inerrancy of scripture, but I obviously believe that they are wrongly interpreting and exegeting scripture, they are actually eisegeting scripture.
How are we to treat women in these positions? That's kind of similar to a question we got before, isn't it Andy? Yeah, that's always a question that you got to stop and pray for a little bit before you answer.
Because as I think about pastors that I know here, it would be evangelical, it would be and I definitely think that those two are in very different places, I mean the one...
Yeah right, I am surrounded in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, in Cumberland County by churches who are part of the Church of God, Findlay, Ohio denomination. They are best described, I think, as Wesleyan Baptists, and they believe in the ordination of women, but these congregations are typically very conservative otherwise, they believe in the inerrancy of scripture.
The women involved in pastorate are not feminists, they are not pro-abortionists, they are not pro-homosexual, they are not off the rails with left-wing ideology, they just believe, which is actually has a long history in the Wesleyan holiness movement of having women in leadership, but they are two different categories.
Be kind to them,.
Love them. I mean, if you are convinced that scripture doesn't permit, you know, you can't be... You can and I mean, I'm...
Oh, it's B .B. B .B. did not define whether he or she is female, and we must remember B .B. Warfield.
Oh, it's just the letters, B .B.
Right.
Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think it's a lot easier and far more appropriate for a lady, friend, evangelical to be probably not going to change their mind, and it is what it is.
When I used to live on Long Island, and I was a member of Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville, Long Island, which later became Grace Reform Baptist Church of Long Island, which still exists now in Merrick, New York.
I had an office in the church building because we had...or I, I should say, was employed by WMCA radio at the time, and WMCA paid for rent to have me have an office in the church building, and my church got free advertising and involved in that relationship.
I should never say my church. My friend Bill Shishko would be upset with me. It's Christ's church, but it happens to be the church where I was a member. But a woman who listened to Calvary Baptist Church's radio program on WMCA heard a sermon by my minister at the time, Mike Gaydosh, founder of Solid Ground Christian Books, and Mike's message was on the fact that the Bible teaches a exclusively male headship in the church and even in marriage, and a woman who was an elder in a liberal Presbyterian church heard that, and she called me up because I answered the church phone as well when I was there, and she said, I'm an elder in a Presbyterian church.
I heard your pastor's message. I now know I have to leave not only my position as elder, but even the congregation where I'm a member because if they ordain women, and I disagree with it now so radically, I don't know how I could remain there.
And I wish I had kept in contact with that woman, but that was quite an amazing response. After one sermon, she was moved by my God to resign from her position.
That's incredible.
Yeah, so I mean, and there are many women out there who are brilliant women, who have many degrees, who are to use their gifts, but they can't use their gifts in the way the Bible prohibits them. I mean, that has nothing to do with them being inferior at all.
Yeah.
We have RJ in White Plains, New York, and RJ asks, don't you think it's important when people are planting a church that they have to really evaluate and do some soul-searching as to their genuine motives behind doing it, and also the location that they choose?
There are some people who plant churches right down the road from a completely fine, biblically sound church, and wind up siphoning people away from those churches, even though they agree, basically, on most important things.
Don't you think that sometimes it can be foolish to plant a church, especially when you're doing so right in the backyard of a church that exists there that is honoring God already? Yeah, that's kind of a leading question.
Yeah, obviously, you're not doing this to try and steal people from another church. Basically, there's, to some degree, need for, even in Kentucky, this need, and take a moment to really consider going to a place where Christianity is illegal.
And to do that, obviously, God directs and he sends people who are going to missions. They're on top of each other when there are areas that have problems. Right, and I know of one attempt at a church.
Plant that, I'm not going to mention where it is or the people involved, but I could not help but think that the location that was chosen was specifically to siphon people away from a neighbor church that believed, theologically, the same thing almost in every way, and there was some bad blood, and I couldn't help but think that there was some motivation of vengeance going on there.
But I mean, you said that people should avoid planting churches in vacation spots. Well, I mean, we don't want to go too far with that, because I know folks who are planting a church in Hawaii, and they're surrounded by Mormons and other false churches.
The area of Hawaii where they are planting this church has no solidly Reformed congregation. So, I mean, you can't exclude every attempt to plant a church in a nice area, can you? I'm not against it, and granted,.
I live in New York, and a lot of people love New York. I'm like, where are the missionaries who are lining up to go to 1040 Window? Why is it always, like, in countries in the Caribbean that.
Are... Another thing that popped into my head is that I personally don't have any problem with a group of solidly Reformed Christians planting a church right in the heart of the Bible Belt. You might have 10 churches in a five-minute radius from the church you are planting that are even in the same denomination, but they may be anti-Calvinist, they may be just very lukewarm or just saturated with the nonsense of modern evangelical philosophy, and they say, we want Sovereign Grace Church in that neighborhood.
I mean, obviously, I don't think that you would be opposed to that, would you?
No, yeah, and I totally understand that, you know, in a lot of ways, it's very... And churches, if every Christian pastor, every church plan to be a foreign missionary and let God keep them in the United States, hang on being in the United States, hang on being to people groups that have never...
CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York says,.
Please don't get me wrong, I am not a believer in this modern insane social justice phenomenon, but at the same time, I have heard of churches, perhaps especially down south, who will purposely plant churches that are all black congregants or other racial groups, because they think that birds of a feather flock together and are happiest when they are with people who look like them and behave like them in every way.
Isn't this possibly a wicked act where you are purposely segregating people who are different from you in other churches, rather than having them remain where you are? Mainly like 20 to 30 years ago, I don't hear that much of it now, but maybe you do, I don't know.
Yeah, I mean, I've heard for people groups and different types, I resonate with that, I understand that, and yeah, obviously, I feel... Are you in the Calvary Chapel? I'm not referring to churches. You know, winter here is freezing, it's so cold, and I would much rather be among my people, you know, the Floridians, but you're losing out on the power of the Gospel.
The Gospel really does bring unity down walls of hospital. We need that. We as Christians need to know other believers and be even... Particularly, this is all with the assumption that you are in the community, that if everybody in your town is all of one ethnicity, then yeah, of course.
Of course your church is going to all look the same, that's fine. But if you're in a place that is any type of congregation, or you run and they make noise or something, you know, you don't like kids in.
Your... I've heard of that, I've heard of... Obviously, I think the greater problem, maybe you don't agree with me, I think the greater problem by far is the effort to run out older folks, the elderly folks, and establish churches that are only based upon the tastes and desires and interests of young people.
I think that there's a worship and even an idolatry of youth, where the senior saints, the gray-haired, the silver-haired saints are being looked upon as a nuisance, like a cancer even, that we've got to get rid of in order for us to enjoy the things that we want to enjoy.
Yeah, that is a very real problem.
50 and everybody else is young. It's not just old, too. If there are retired, past, lay people from the glory of God, and we have a foundation, people like that that are in Manhattan and New York City...
Because everybody retires in Florida. Yeah, they all retire and move to the South. And for our Church, we're so young that it would be really nice to have 40 years to alongside with young married couples and help them experience with these people.
Now, obviously, it's a false idea to think to say what the Bible says about parenting in the wisdom.
And of course, I'm assuming you're not having people fill out applications where you're questioning them. We obviously see you're old, but are you wise?
Well, let me put it like this. If your Church is genuinely sad to see you go, then you're the type of person, probably, that we would love to have. But if your Church wants to get rid of you because you complain constantly, then...
And as far as the Churches that are primarily built upon one specific ethnic group, obviously, I'm assuming you would agree that when it comes to language barriers, that's a different story, because obviously people have to hear.
Although I love it when I have seen the former Church where as a member on Long Island, there was a time where there was a whole group of Spanish folks who came to fall in love with the doctrines of Sovereign Grace, but they spoke very little English and they would sit there with headphones on and there was somebody in the choir loft in a booth translating the message in Spanish.
But other than that, I mean, obviously, you don't see anything wrong with people going to a Korean Church, a Chinese Church, a French-Haitian Church, Spanish Church, because of the language barrier issue.
Yeah, if it's in that language, then great. Like, if they're going to a Korean Church that is speaking Korean, then sure. For people that are not Korean, the opportunity to display the beauty and glory of the Gospel, because you have assembled a group of people that could get together even if Christ lived, died, and rose again.
Well, we have to go to our final break.
If you want to ask a question, send it in immediately, because we're running out of time. ChrisArnson at gmail .com. ChrisArnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back with our guest, Pastor Andy Woodard of New Covenant Church, NYC, and our discussion on church planting right after these messages from our sponsors.
Got to tell you, for my money, Chris Arnson's.
Radio program is just the best. Iron. Criticizing. Iron. I think that's what it's called. This is Todd Friel of Wretched Radio and TV with Phil Johnson of Grace to You, inviting everybody to come to the G3 Conference, which has almost instantly become one of the best conferences in the country.
And it is. It's a great conference. I love it. And Chris Arnson was there last year. He's been there, I think, every year. It's great to see him there. You and I actually did some recordings in the lobby at that place.
So tons of stuff going on. Tons of great speakers. And no matter where you are in the building, you will hear Chris Arnson's laugh. And that's worth the price of admission alone. If you would like to join Phil, me, Chris, and a cavalcade of great preachers, so it should be a cavalcade of great preachers, and me, g3conference .com, g3conference .com.
Again, their information.
Can be found at www .ncc .nyc. Have a great day. Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio is sponsored by Harvey Cedars, a year-round Bible conference and retreat center nestled on the Jersey Shore. Harvey Cedars offers a wide range of accommodations to suit groups up to 400.
For generations, Christians have enjoyed gathering and growing at Harvey Cedars. Each year, thousands of high school and college students come and learn more about God's Word. An additional 9 ,000 come annually to Harvey Cedars as families, couples, singles, men, women, pastors, seniors, and missionaries.
90 miles from New York City, 70 miles from Philly, and 95 miles from Wilmington, and easily accessible, scores of notable Christian groups frequently plan conferences at Harvey Cedars, like The Navigators, InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, Campus Crusade, and the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals.
Find Harvey Cedars on Facebook or at hcbible .org. Hcbible .org. Call 609 -494 -5689. 609 -494 -5689. Harvey Cedars, where Christ finds people and changes lives. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.
If you've.
Watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know I have a great love for getting Bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity. And besides that, they feel so good.
I'm so delighted I discovered Post Tenebrous Lux Bible Rebinding. No radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently, but I'll give it a shot. Jeffrey Rice of Post Tenebrous Lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan.
All his work is done by hand, from the cutting, to the pleating of corners, to the perimeter stitching. Jeffrey uses the finest in buttery soft imported leathers in a wide variety of gorgeous colors, like the turquoise goatskin tanned in Italy used for my Nestle All in 28th edition, with a navy blue goatskin inside liner, and the electric blue goatskin from a French tannery used to rebind a Reformation Study Bible I used as a gift.
The silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome. Jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications, and even emboss your logo into the leather, making whatever he rebinds a one-of-a-kind work of art.
For more details on Post Tenebrous Lux Bible Rebinding, go to ptlbiblerebinding .com. That's ptlbiblerebinding .com. Paul wrote to the church at Galatia,.
For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, pastor of Providence Baptist Church.
We are a Reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689. We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts. We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do than how men view these things.
That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the apostles' priority, it must not be ours either. We believe, by God's grace, that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man, and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us, and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love.
If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts, or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship. You can call us at 508 -528 -5750. That's 508 -528 -5750. Or go to our website to email us, listen to past sermons, worship songs, or watch our TV program entitled Resting in Grace.
You can find us at providencebaptistchurchma .org. That's providencebaptistchurchma .org. Or even on sermonaudio .com. Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself. Recently he wrote a book titled Consider the Evidence for the Bible. Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword. Dan also has a master's degree in theology. Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states.
He represents many Christians in serious injury matters all over the country. Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer. He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy, and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for 1 million dollars or more, and in approximately 10 different states.
Lynbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Lynbrook, Long Island is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century. Our church is far more than a Sunday worship service. It's a place of.
Learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant. It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement. It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing.
We're a diverse family of all ages enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship,.
Play, and together. Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman and I invite you to come and join us here at.
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Hello, my name is James Renahan and I'm the president of IRVS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas. The Word of God says, if a man desires the office of an overseer, he desires a good thing. Do you have the desire to serve Jesus Christ in pastoral ministry?
It's been a wonderful partnership. Now we have advanced our school into an independent seminary offering a full program of courses leading to the Master of Divinity degree. This is IRVS Theological Seminary.
IRVS Theological Seminary is dedicated by God's grace to preparing godly ministers who will be committed to these doctrines. Do you sense a call to serve Jesus Christ in his church as a pastor? Why not consider IRVS Theological Seminary?
You'll find more information at IRVSseminary .org. That's IRVSseminary .org, two S's in the middle. I hope to hear from you soon. God bless you.
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Spread the word about FirstLoveRadio .org. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest for the full two hours today has been and will continue to be Andy Woodard. He is pastor, lead pastor of New Covenant Church NYC in Manhattan, and we are discussing church planting, searching for the best biblical methodology, and if you'd like to join us, do so now or forever hold your peace because we're rapidly running out of time.
ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. What I'd like you to do, Andy, before I take any more listener questions, is to really lay out the main ways that people that you're aware of, people in ministry, are conducting church planting and if you could compare and contrast the primary ways they are doing that.
With each other and with the scriptures. Yeah, and then whatever it is we're doing, I'm not sure what to call it, maybe the idea of making the church appealing to unbelievers, then the missional model is kind of the leftovers from the emergent church, where it de-emphasizes doctrine and theology and is all about, and that seems to be a correct corrective for the attractional model, where they realized that people were just coming and sitting in the pews and not doing anything, and so the missional model is trying to get every member or every person to be engaged in ministry.
I think that the tradition includes that, encompasses that, through the priesthood of saying that unbelievers are enemies against God and they must be spiritually raised from the dead in order for them to love God and to love the church and to love His Word, and so we don't expect unbelievers to find church to appeal to them.
We're designing the church for the glory of God and for obedience to His Word and to be an equipping center, to be edifying for believers, and if there happen to be unbelievers with us, yes, we desire that they would hear the gospel and be converted, not a Billy Graham crusade, the redeemed who are united in covenant.
To be the church. Now, we who are Reformed tend to be very negative about the seeker-sensitive movement and people who actually alter their sermons and the way that they worship in order to appease the lost, in order to draw them in.
But at the same time, and of course, when I say we who are Reformed usually do that, that is rapidly changing from what I have seen, and it seems to be primarily amongst our Presbyterian brothers, no insult, but I think that they would admit that, where there is more seeker-sensitive ideology being practiced in order to grow numerically, and it seems to be a contradiction, not only to the doctrines of Sovereign Grace, but the Bible itself, more importantly, which we believe the doctrines of Sovereign Grace are biblical.
But there are things, though, that we should be doing, and correct me if I'm wrong, Andy, that have an appeal to the lost, like we are to extend open arms of love to them, we are to, you know, we have churches that have regular meals where people gather and break bread and have fellowship, and that is something that's appealing to those outside of the church.
We do things, we might even have special events that might have something about them that's appealing to your average lost person wandering outside the walls of your church. But there's a difference between doing things that are completely compatible with the Bible, and when you're not doing things specifically with the main intention of just growing numerically, when you're actually just trying to show the lost, hey, we love you, we are willing to invite you in if you repent, and God is a forgiving and merciful God, no matter what you've done, that we are to do things that are attractive to some lost people, aren't we?
Thinking about this for a number of months, maybe in our churches, who are we to attempt His Word? And that really becomes so obvious, especially if you see God as authoritative and the Word of God is authoritative, that will set you.
And yes, you want your music to be performed well, you want your guitar player to have practice, and you don't want to have the song leader be a person who's tone-deaf and cannot sing. The idea of excellence, you want your church building to be, and your nursery to be clean, and whatever you're doing needs to be done well for the glory of God, and when you do those things well for the glory of God, it will be appealing.
America loved to eat a Chick-fil-A. When we are doing the things to the Lord, should be able to see that and see, yes, this is quality, and there's something about it that is defined on a typical Friday night, doing the things that unbelievers typically do on Friday.
Nights. I'm assuming that you don't have any problem with churches that on occasion do things recreationally that would be appealing to the lost, not that they would be solely doing it to draw the lost by entertaining them, but because the people in the church enjoy these specific things, sporting events or whatever the issue is, visits to all kinds of recreational activities, amusement parks and so on, where the congregants are told, you should invite your lost friends to this, because not only will we be enjoying ourselves, but we do have a portion of that recreational event where we do have the word of God proclaimed and so on.
You don't have anything wrong with that, do you?
Yeah, no, I think it's fine just to do something fun, even if there is a Yankees game.
And of course, our mutual friend Ed Moore thinks that you've committed heresy by going to a Yankee.
Game, not a Mets game. Well, I mean, I would agree with that,.
Because I'm a huge Tampa Bay Rays fan. I can win for either team, but we had a good time. And it's also a great opportunity to invite unsaved friends and just to get to know them and help them see that, yeah, Christians don't have to be weird.
And yeah, we were...
And we're not supposed to import that into a worship service, though.
Yeah, I mean, yeah, you can keep your baseball on the baseball field and...
Be quite dangerous to be playing baseball in a worship service.
But that's not to say that we don't play baseball to the glory of God, because we do. And so for that reason, we don't curse at the umpire and cry and railroad the catcher and various things like that.
We want to play to the glory of God, but we play to win.
Okay, we have an anonymous listener in Canada. This listener says, So if someone has been at a church for years, but now sees issues, how would someone reconcile that with wanting to maintain... Let me change the emphasis in the pronunciation.
How would someone reconcile that with someone wanting to maintain unity? When should a person leave? And that is basically the end of the questions. So obviously, this could take an entire weeks of programming.
But in the brief time that we have left, answer that to the best of your ability.
Wow, that's huge. Is this the last question?
Yes.
The last question we have time for.
Yeah, and how...
We have two minutes.
Two minutes. Yeah, I would say, don't leave prematurely, don't leave quickly. If at all possible, walk through this. Like I resigned from a church that I did not agree with, but I did not resign, I did not leave that church until I had the...
And obviously, you can't always urge you to be patient, caught to leave unless it's really clear that you just have...
Okay, well, thank you, Anonymous. Keep listening to Iron Trip and Zion Radio in Canada and spreading the word there and beyond. And don't forget, folks, the website for New Covenant Church NYC is ncc .nyc.
That's ncc .nyc. Do you have any final words to just etch something that you find most important on the hearts and minds of our listeners?
Yeah, I would say for pastors, preach the word and pray and trust that God will build this church. You don't have to abandon those things, God will give.
And I have a message for those of you listening who might be financially blessed, who has a heart for seeing churches thrive in areas where there is very little solid preaching and teaching available.
New York City is a massive place filled with millions of people, but there is not a lot of solid... There are not a lot of solid churches there. So please consider even sending a generous donation to ncc .nyc, that's New Covenant Church, New York City, to help them as they are taking upon themselves a really important work in one of the most liberal and religiously diverse and ethnically diverse mission fields in the world.
Once again, that's ncc .nyc. I want to thank you so much, Pastor Andy Woodard. I want to thank you for sponsoring our Interpretation Radio. I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write in questions.
And I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater savior than you are a sinner.