November 6, 2018 Show with Andy Woodard on “Church Planting: In Search of the Most Biblical Approach”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host, Chris Arnson.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this sixth day of November 2018.

And first of all, let me urge you, if you are a Bible-believing Christian, you love the Lord, you follow his precepts as best as you can on this earth with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, then I urge you to go out and vote.

If you are a liberal or leftist or apostate or unbeliever, stay home, please stay home. But I am so, uh, glad that we have returning to our program today, Andy Woodard, the lead pastor of New Covenant Church, NYC in Manhattan.

And today we are going to be addressing church planting in search of the most biblical approach. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Andy Woodard.

Hey Chris, thanks so much for having me on the air.

And let me right away give our email address if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question, especially in regard to church planting. Since Andy is a pastor, we can broaden the spectrum of questions, uh, because if they have, if you have a pastoral question, we obviously wouldn't want to stop Andy from answering your question, especially if you don't have your own pastor.

Uh, but if you especially have a question about church planting, maybe you're a pastor yourself, or maybe you're an elder, a deacon, or someone involved in church planting. We would love to hear from you at chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter. Before we go into the subject at hand, church planting in search of the most biblical approach, please tell our listeners once again about New Covenant Church, NYC.

Yeah, thanks. Um, our church was started about a year and a couple months ago. The church meets in the Midtown, Ramercy neighborhood, and, um, and, um, this last Sunday, uh, two days ago, we had, uh, 25 people, I believe, and, um, we're not, we're not really that concerned about numbers, but that's just letting y 'all know how things are going.

Um, the Lord is blessed and things have worked as well. Um, yeah, so I'm, I'm very thankful for how.

Things are going. Great. Well, you are in the area of, uh, another friend of mine who's a pastor. Have you gotten to meet yet the Reverend Jacob Smith, who is rector at St. George's Episcopal Church, which is actually a low church, Calvinistic, conservative, biblically faithful congregation.

I don't know if you've ever met him or heard of him yet.

Yeah, I've, uh, I've met him, uh, I think I was in his office maybe a year ago. Um, yeah. And, uh, I attend a small group Bible study that, uh, meets in St. George's, uh, building.

Yeah, I had a fascinating tour by Reverend Jacob years ago. Uh, that, uh, church is, was founded by Stephen Ting, a, a low church Calvinist in the 19th century and, uh, a very biblically faithful pastor.

And I'm glad that Reverend Jacob has taken up the mantle and sought to brought that congregation back to its biblical roots. But, uh, first of all, let me also remind our listeners if they, if they want to find out more about New Covenant Church, NYC, uh, the website is ncc .nyc, NCC for New Covenant Church, dot NYC for New York City.

And, uh, we hope that you visit there if you live in Manhattan or if you're even visiting Manhattan on vacation. And I know a lot of people across the world who are listening to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, uh, go and visit Manhattan since it seems to be a hub of activity, uh, that people around the world want to be involved in in some way, shape or form, whether it's through their businesses or whether it's through, uh, arts and entertainment and fine dining or whatever you might, uh, go to Manhattan for, please consider New Covenant Church NYC.

Defining Church Planting as a Covenanted Body of Baptized Believers

Now, uh, before we go into the subject in a deeper way, uh, let's get a definition laid down on church planting because as you probably know, there are Christians who have and still do, uh, leave a congregation where they are either a member or perhaps they were never a member of a congregation and then they've just bounced around, uh, and they are disgruntled in some way, they are displeased whether for right reasons or for wrong reasons, and they will leave a church and they will get together with a group of people, uh, their friends likely to begin with and say, let's start a church, and they will rent out a hotel or some space, they might even meet in somebody's home, and they will just on their own, uh, without any approval or sanction or blessing, uh, of an actually established church, they will begin their own church.

Is that a proper way to plant a church in your opinion, Bidlickly?

Yeah, um, that is not what we did. That, um, that new Christian and that recognized that it was God's will for this church, so I asked for their approval, for their willingness to be the sending church, and in, uh, good Baptist style, I took a congregational vote and, and, um, yeah, so that's, that's what we did, and that's what you see in Acts chapter 13 when, uh, the Apostles, um, or in the church in Antioch is gathered to worship and the Lord says, the Holy Spirit says, set apart, uh, Barnabas and Saul for the work that I've, uh, yet at the same time scenarios, it is able, or we definitely imagine scenarios in 17, a church to be found that is, um, able to answer send churches.

So I don't want to be too harsh or too dogmatic about saying you absolutely always, always must have a sending church, but I would say, if at all possible, you should. You should seek a biblical, and if that's really, truly, genuinely impossible, then obey God, which, you know, God commands us to be in, I think it'd be better to start a church in your.

Living room than to not. Right, and of course, it even gets more complicated and more likely that, uh, a church would begin on its own without the sanction of another church if it's in an area overseas, uh, where you have perhaps even Sharia law going on and it has to be an underground church or another place where Christianity is just so very rare, and, and there's no church that you are aware of willing to, uh, be involved in the planting of that church.

Even in, even in Japan, I understand there's less than 1 of the population that's Christian, so. Yeah, I think there's an.

Issue related to all this that is, troubles me because it involves what I would consider my tribe, and that is, um, like, there's the Reformed Baptist, conservative, um, regulative principle type people, and that is, well, the less, the less willing they are to be ascending church churches, and so, like, cautious, even to the extent of, of building up extra-biblical requests, and because they don't want to be the founder of a new cult, getting to know someone as a church planter before they'll send them out.

Biblical, faithful Christians in foreign places that don't have the oversight of a biblical church. You know, I've gotten these off-the-wall emails from people, too, where they're like, hey, I found you online, I live in some random country, and, um, can we, can we work together?

And usually my answer is no, I don't know you, and it's a bit of a stretch for.

Me to be able to take on. Yeah, my friend, Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries, he does various types, he's involved in various types of public outreach, evangelism, and so on, years ago to a much larger degree with the Mormons in both Salt Lake City, Utah, and Arizona, and he has had people approach him who say, hey, can we help you pass out tracts and, and help you evangelize, pass out Bibles, whatever you're doing, and Dr. White's first question is, where are you a member, what church are you a member of, and if the person says, well, I'm not a member anywhere, he says, I'm sorry, you can't participate with us in that fashion, because you are in disobedience to God.

So, the membership in the local church is a very important thing, in fact, I have been trying to remember every day for a while to remind our listeners that if they are not a member of a local Bible-believing church, and they're not prayerfully looking for one, they are indeed living in disobedience, and you can email me at chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com, if you cannot find a church near you, I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the world, and I have already helped quite a number of people find churches near them, even as far away as Perth, Australia, and I'm so glad that the couple who listen to Iron Trip and Zion Radio from Perth reached out to me, asking do I know of a church in Perth, and I do, I do indeed know of one, because the Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America planted one in Perth just recently, and it was very providential that this individual in my audience was to ask me that right after the planting of that church.

So, but anyway, and of course, you have, if you live in Manhattan, you have New Covenant Church NYC that you should at least visit to prayerfully consider joining that church if you have no church of your own.

So, now bring us to the definition of church planting that you believe is most biblical, and tell us also about the different methodologies and ideologies with which you've been confronted that have, you know, given you reason to compare and contrast the different approaches that are out there.

Yeah, start with the definition of a church,.

And then we'll work with a church. That's a better idea, yeah, go ahead. Yeah, because you can also just replace the word starting a church, and our end goal is a church. That's what we want to have established, so then the process is just...

We believe that a church is a group of baptized believers united in covenant to be the church and to do what churches are commanded to do in Scripture. So there's intentionality in that. Um, as believers, so they've got to be professing Christians.

We believe in regenerate church membership. And then united, so they're committed to each other intentionally. They know that they're committed. They're not just joining by osmosis or, you know, they just kind of walk sometimes.

You know, like, that's a stigma, like, in churches where nobody knows who the members are, and people just sort of drift in and drift out. So a group of baptized believers united in covenant to be the church.

So they know this is a church. They don't think it's just a Bible study, like a young adults Bible study, or a men's group, or a women's group, or a covenant. So they're united to be the church, and then to do the things that Scripture commands.

I think that we really, for creativity, you know, creativity is a good thing, but I think the church is described for us in Scripture, and it's not up to our imaginations to figure out what it's to be, and what a church is supposed to do.

So that definition leads to the question we believe Scripture commands the church to do, and those are evangelism, discipleship, practicing church leadership, that being elders and deacons, biblical preaching and teaching, but we're accountability and discipline and giving and missions.

Noticeably absent are things like painting the park and digging wells in foreign countries. Not that it's a bad thing to do those things, but those things are outside of what Scripture commands the church to do.

So back to our definition, though, like, if it's to do, then the way you start a church is by getting a group of baptized. That uniting in covenant under a membership covenant is actually kind of interesting that we're on the radio today, because the last Sunday of the month of November is our one-year anniversary of covenanting.

Wow. So a year ago, at the end of November. When you're listening to church-planting language, there are certain types, and even regard for Scripture, that will use the language of our church covenanted on such-and-such day.

And then there are other people, which is kind of the mainstream, who will say our church launched on a certain day. There's really, like, two different sets of language and sets of definitions and ideologies and philosophies that are kind of the standard in the church-planting world today, and the one is from the church marketing movement and the seeker-sensitive church growth movement, and then the other, I believe, is last month, and the two could not have been more different from each other.

Church Marketing and Seeker-Sensitive Models Versus a Biblical Church Plant

Well, why don't you give an.

Outline of one and then follow with an outline of the other that you saw at these two different, radically different, conferences, and then we'll get into a comparison between those two, not only with each other, but with the Scriptures, most importantly.

Yeah. The sermon titles were the We. The speaker did not speak against charity.

And that is probably the very last thing on the minds of those planting a church, I should say, on the minds of most of those planting a church.

Yeah, and there's a lot of reasons for that. They come down to very, very practical things, like you have to be able to pay the rent, and if you can't pay the rent on your apartment, you're in big trouble.

Speaking, your funding gets cut. That produces and the marriages of these, so they have to produce results. Okay, well, you know, we only have so much money available for church planting, and you're not, you know, you're not producing, therefore we're going to send our money to someone who is.

Simply overhaul that is the standard today in New York City and.

Across, yeah. Well, so you had the Nine Marks, that's a very short summary of what they presented at their conference, so I don't know if you want to continue with the Nine Marks model, or if you want to move on now to the...

Yeah, let me talk about that just a little more. We had.

The second one that I listed there was Define the We Defining the Church. That one was, these two points of the sermon was on the gospel, and do your people unique, and that being the gospel, in order to have an affinity group church.

So you can gather an affinity group together for any sort of purpose, whether it's a bowling club, or NASCAR, or trains, or something, and get together. You know, you can certainly say, well, we're going to New York, and you say, we're going to put the liberty and the barriers.

It's not the design your church, and whether that be the black community, or the white planting a church, people that are in that area. And obviously, there can be language barriers, which same language in the gospel.

The gospel, you do not blur those lines between the believer and the unbeliever. By Redeemer City, who was speaking, was this, the lead pastor, getting people to come inside the wall, and then once they're inside, then you are to equip them, and then to send them, and get the people who are outside to come in, and be part of the end.

And she was saying that that's bad. And I was like, no, that's a good diagram that had no barriers, no boundaries at all. I'm sure you can't prove it. I want to volunteer to. Sorry. They've got, just like, I'm about to, like, go through the roof here, sitting on my hands, and just, like, biting my tongue, and this is, this came over, and because he knew that I have a gospel.

That's a very common thing with many churches, even evangelical ones,.

Where they are more concerned with the professional quality of the music than they are of the state, the spiritual state of the one singing or playing an instrument. Yeah, yeah, and that's,.

My knowledge, that's what all of the churches being planted today are doing, in New York City, anyway. They're, they don't really ask too many people to sing the songs, and leading the congregation in worship of God actually believes in the God that they're singing about.

I think that's a huge problem, because what you've got at the root of all of this is unbelief. You have unbelievers leading you. You have the one who's planning this whole thing, who's planning the church, organizing the church, who seems to not believe that the gospel really is salvation, that you need something other than the gospel to build the church, to grow the church, to unite the church, and to hold the church.

So you have to go, then, to, um, all of these surveys say this, and the culture, and it's, like, the Golden Cap of Art, where they'll have, like, a network of churches that are all in, of the same name, and the same theology, and philosophy, and in the same city, but then, sorry, I, I misspoke.

They don't have the same theology, but they're all the same brand. So they have, but then they'll say, each church is contextualized to its community, but practically speaking, here in New York City, what that means is that the church that is in, um, the heart of, like, the gay community, well, that church is open, and the church, which, for those who don't know, open and affirming means pro-gay, they don't think that it's a problem, that you don't need to repent from homosexuality.

And they don't even all agree on.

Issues like monogamy, and, uh, sex outside of, now that same-sex marriage is legal, and I believe in every state, I might be wrong, but, uh, some would require marriage, uh, even though we wouldn't view it as a real marriage, some would require some kind of a monogamous, uh, commitment before they have sex, but they're not all agreed on that, you know, because they're not even basing what they believe and do upon the scriptures anyway.

Yeah, and so what they're doing is, it's like sticking their finger in the air to feel which direction the wind is blowing, and then saying, okay, that's the direction it's going, therefore that's the direction we're going to go, and that's, that's pervasive, that's everywhere, and, um, so if you think that your small group leader who's, like, leading your weekly Bible study needs to be a Christian, um, you might have a hard time finding a church, or if you think that the music leader needs to be a Christian, you're going to have a hard time finding that here in this city.

Um, two very different ways, and because of the prominence of the founder of Tim Keller, many people think that, um, oh, it must be solid because, you know, it's associated.

With Tim Keller. And of course many others would draw a completely different conclusion for the.

Same reason. Yeah, yeah, and so the issue, though, is where you see something above the surface, but there's a lot, and I'm troubled because a little bit, I only know a few stories, I only know history, having people who are former staff members of, of just mind-boggling.

It's really based on philosophy that is based on pragmatism and cultural anthropology.

Respectful Engagement with Unbiblical Church Plants

Well, we have to go to our first break right now, and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c-h-r-i-s-a-r-n-z-e-n at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence, your country of residence, if you live outside the USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves personal and private matter.

Don't go away, God willing, we will be right back with Pastor Andy Woodard on Church Planting, Finding the Biblical Methodology.

James White here, co-founder of Alpha and Omega Ministries and occasional guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. I'm so delighted. My friend Chris Arnzen will be heading down to Atlanta for the next G3 Conference from January 17th to the 19th, 2019, where I'll be joining a very impressive lineup of speakers on the theme, A Biblical Understanding of Missions.

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My name is Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries, as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier Ministries. I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the doctor of ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.

I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor. It's called New Covenant Church, NYC. They are a Reformed Baptist church that meets in Midtown Manhattan.

You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www .ncc .nyc. They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel. If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching, in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit New Covenant Church, NYC.

Again, their information can be found at www .ncc .nyc. Have a great day.

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Thank you so much, Lord Jesus. Mike Gaydosh is very important to me personally, being my first pastor after becoming born again, and also being a sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We are now back with Andy Woodard, the lead pastor at New Covenant Church NYC in Manhattan.

We are discussing church planting in search of the most biblical approach. We do have an anonymous listener who has a question for you already, who says, how are we to approach those that are self-ordained pastors who are shepherding churches that they have planted in a way that is not according to the scriptures, in a way that you did not recommend in the outset of the program?

Are we to give them the same level of respect that you would give a pastor, should other pastors recognize them as colleagues in ministry? How do we approach this situation? I kind of have a growing.

Interacting with other pastors, that my time is limited, and I only have so many hours in a day and days in a week and all that. When I'm invited to conference in the city, I do that sort of thing. I mean, sometimes it doesn't fit in my calendar.

I could make it fit in my calendar. I think it's going to be... So, I mean, obviously not everybody is happening on a weekly basis that you could just book your calendar full of pastors' meetings, but I mean, I think you obviously should be respectful, self-minded, biblically.

Maybe over time you can be able to influence some of these church philosophies and methodologies and strategies. And so, like, that meeting that I went to by Redeemer, that was promoted, and the reason for that is because they acknowledge that it's not working as well as it used to.

Therefore, they want to improve, and the church is not. Maybe in time. Usually it's well-intentioned. The desire is to reach people. You don't show you want to reach people, but if they see your... of people being converted, joining your church, committed body of believers that are... end-of-the-year giving campaign comes into giving to your church.

I think if you do that over time, it will be compelling. We'll see that. Why is your church more stable? Why is your church by your congregation? So I think if you combine patience, distance, but I think some of the people...

Right. I don't know how much this is connected with what you just said. I think it is very connected. But I have, as you know, an annual pastors' luncheon. I actually am now at the stage where I'm doing at least two a year.

And my next one, by the way, for everyone listening who is a man in ministry leadership. I'm having our next pastors' luncheon, God willing, on Thursday, January 3rd, 2019 at the Carlisle Fire and Rescue Banquet Hall.

And our speaker, God willing, is going to be Dr. Tony Costa. And he is professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. But when I have these events, I only invite men. And that actually got...

I don't know if you're aware, that got me in a bit of trouble on Facebook. A swarm of feminists began attacking me in writing for only inviting men to the pastors' luncheon. And there were female clerics in the all over the Cumberland County area making all kinds of slanderous accusations against me.

They were saying that I did this because I was not... I had no self-control sexually. That was one reason that I didn't want women there. One black female cleric said that I must be a racist also. And when I challenge these people about slandering me in public, who don't even know who I am, based on the fact that I believe in exclusively male leadership.

But even an egalitarian can have an event that's only for men or for women. I mean, it's really nonsensical. But when I invite men in the ministry, I extend the invitations to evangelicals. I don't go out of my way to invite liberal mainline ministers or Roman Catholic priests or Eastern Orthodox priests or rabbis.

But if they show up, I'm not going to escort them to the door. Even if a female pastor, which I believe is oxymoronic, sorry for that folks. But even if a female pastor shows up, I'm not going to make her leave.

But the invitation, the free invitation is only extended to those who are evangelical. Now, I'm assuming that what you were just saying is somewhat connected to that. And that you don't want to necessarily say, well, I'm not going to even associate in any way with a self-ordained man who claims to be a pastor and has planted a church without any blessing or sanction or involvement from another congregation.

That doesn't, you shouldn't do that extreme. Doesn't mean that you have to have them.

Preach in your pulpit when you're on vacation. Yeah. I mean, I have a friend who as such did not have, he were either theology or else he hadn't been in them long enough. And, you know, you, you could definitely say, well, okay, he was too young and he should have stayed with, but I don't know all the ins and outs of that.

And perhaps they're not interested in all of that, but on Long Island, um, I mean, congregation called him. They said, yeah, we want to start this church. Now they didn't have other people saying it, but it was a group of believers coming together.

I don't necessarily. And of course, that brings up the issue of.

Patience. Uh, there is no reason really for people to fool heartedly rush into things, uh, and, and basically be primate, uh, pragmatic and compromise on biblical truth just because they want something to happen more quickly than it is developing.

Uh, so, uh, that's just one thing to consider, but we are, we are going to continue our discussion on this issue, uh, on church planting, finding the most biblical approach. And if you'd like to join us with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

C H R I S A R N Z E N M. I was, I just got a email from a listener and I almost forgot the spelling of my own last name. Uh, C H R I S R N Z E N at gmail .com. And we will get to you, all of you who have been sending in emails, uh, as long as the Lord enables us regarding time, but we will get to each of you, uh, one by one if possible.

Uh, but, uh, please, as always give us your first name, your city and state and your country of residence. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. And we look forward to hearing from you and your questions for, for Andy Woodard at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And by the way, this is the longer than normal break because Grace Life Radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida. Uh, they have to localize Iron Trip and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida. So they use this time to air their own public service announcements and their own commercials.

So please be patient with us and use this time to write down the information provided by my advertisers and sponsors so that you can more frequently and more successfully patronize them because we rely upon our advertisers to exist.

We rely upon their advertising dollars. Uh, so please write down the information that they provide. Also send in a question to Andy Woodard at chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. God willing, we're going to be back after these messages from our sponsors.

The Role of Respect, Patience, and Discernment with Unbiblical Pastors

Tired of box store Christianity of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert. Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship? And how about the preaching? Perhaps you've begun to think that in depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island.