November 6, 2018 Show with Andy Woodard on “Church Planting: In Search of the Most Biblical Approach”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com.

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This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this sixth day of November 2018.

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And first of all, let me urge you, if you are a Bible -believing Christian, you love the

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Lord, you follow His precepts as best as you can on this

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Earth with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, then I urge you to go out and vote.

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If you are a liberal or leftist or apostate or unbeliever, stay home.

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Please stay home. But I am so glad that we have returning to our program today,

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Andy Woodard, the lead pastor of New Covenant Church, NYC in Manhattan, and today we are going to be addressing church planting in search of the most biblical approach.

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And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Andy Woodard. Hey Chris, thanks so much for having me on the air.

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And let me right away give our email address if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question, especially in regard to church planting.

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Since Andy is a pastor, we can broaden the spectrum of questions, because if you have a pastoral question, we obviously wouldn't want to stop

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Andy from answering your question, especially if you don't have your own pastor. But if you especially have a question about church planting, maybe you're a pastor yourself, or maybe you're an elder, a pastor, or someone involved in church planting, we would love to hear from you.

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ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

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Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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Before we go into the subject at hand, church planting in search of the most biblical approach, please tell our listeners once again about New Covenant Church NYC.

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Yeah, thanks. Our church was started about a year and a couple months ago.

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We're a Reformed Baptist church that meets in the Midtown East area of Manhattan, kind of the

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Gramercy neighborhood, and started with three people, and this last

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Sunday, two days ago, we had 25 people, I believe, and we're not really that concerned about numbers, but that's just letting y 'all know how things are going.

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The Lord is blessed and things have grown slowly but steady, with steady growth as well.

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Yes, I'm very thankful for how things are doing. Great. Well, you are in the area of another friend of mine who's a pastor.

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Have you gotten to meet yet the Reverend Jacob Smith, who is rector at St.

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George's Episcopal Church, which is actually a low church, Calvinistic, conservative, biblically faithful congregation?

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I don't know if you've ever met him or heard of him yet. Yeah, I've met him, I think

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I was in his office maybe a year ago. Yeah, and I attend a small group

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Bible study that meets in St. George's building. Yeah, I had a fascinating tour by Reverend Jacob years ago.

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That church was founded by Stephen Ting, a low church

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Calvinist in the 19th century and a very biblically faithful pastor, and I'm glad that Reverend Jacob has taken up the mantle and sought to brought that congregation back to its biblical roots.

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But, first of all, let me also remind our listeners, if they want to find out more about New Covenant Church NYC, the website is ncc .nyc.

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N -C -C for New Covenant Church dot NYC for New York City. And we hope that you visit there if you live in Manhattan or if you're even visiting

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Manhattan on vacation. And I know a lot of people across the world who are listening to Iron Trip and Zion Radio will go and visit

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Manhattan since it seems to be a hub of activity that people around the world want to be involved in, in some way shape or form, whether it's through their businesses or whether it's through arts and entertainment and fine dining or whatever you might go to Manhattan for, please consider

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New Covenant Church NYC. Now, before we go into the subject in a deeper way, let's get a definition laid down on church planting because, as you probably know, there are

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Christians who have and still do leave a congregation where they are either a member or perhaps they were never a member of a congregation and they've just bounced around and they are disgruntled in some way, they are displeased whether for right reasons or for wrong reasons and they will leave a church and they will get together with a group of people, their friends likely, to begin with and say let's start a church and they will rent out a hotel or some space they might even meet in somebody's home and they will just on their own without any approval or sanction or blessing of an actually established church, they will begin their own church.

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Is that a proper way to plant the church in your opinion, biblically? Yeah, that is not,

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I don't see that as the biblical way. That is not what we did.

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We had a sending church that knew all the ins and outs of our situation and that had really seen the hand of God on the situation and recognized that it was

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God's will for this church to be planted and so I asked for their support, their approval, for their willingness to be the sending church and in good

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Baptist style, I took a congressional vote and got 100 % approval and yeah, so that's what we did and that's what you see in Acts chapter 13 when the

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Apostles are in the church in Antioch is gathered to worship and the Lord says, the

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Holy Spirit says, set apart Barnabas and Saul for the work that I've called them to. Yet at the same time,

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I could imagine scenarios where there is no biblical church around that is able or willing and able to serve as a sending church and I could definitely imagine scenarios where a group of believers come to biblical convictions.

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Imagine, like, you know, Martin Luther in 1517 and there is no faithful church to be found that is able to answer send churches.

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So I don't want to be too harsh or too dogmatic about saying you absolutely always, always must have a sending church, but I would say if at all possible, you should.

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You should seek a biblical sending church and if that's really, truly, genuinely impossible, then obey

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God regardless, which, you know, God commands us to be in a local church and that local church is supposed to be faithful and I think it'd be better to start a church in your living room than to not go to church and not have a church.

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Right, and of course it even gets more complicated and more likely that a church would begin on its own without the sanction of another church if it's in an area overseas where you have perhaps even

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Sharia law going on and it has to be an underground church or another place where Christianity is just so very rare and there's no church that you are aware of willing to be involved in the planting of that church.

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Even in Japan, I understand there's less than 1 % of the population that's

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Christian, so. Yeah, I think there's an issue related to all this that is, it kind of troubles me because it involves what

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I would consider my tribe and that is like the Reformed Baptist conservative regulative principle type people and that is my observation, my observation is that the more conservative a church is, the less willing they are to be a sending church for other churches and so like there's, they tend to be super super cautious even to the extent of building up extra biblical requirements for a church or for a church plant and because they don't want to be responsible for false teaching, they don't want to be the founder of a new cult or something, which is, you know, makes total sense, but at the same time, like, usually they'll want a long runway of getting to know someone as a church planter before they'll send them out, so and it makes me sad because I know that there are lots of biblical faithful Christians in foreign places that don't have the oversight of a biblical church and, you know,

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I've gotten these off -the -wall emails from people too where they're like, hey, I found you online, I live in some random country, and can we work together?

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And usually my answer is no, I don't know you and to build up that level of trust is just too much for me to be able to take on.

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Yeah, my friend Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries, he does various types, he's involved in various types of public outreach evangelism and so on years ago to a much larger degree with the

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Mormons in both Salt Lake City, Utah, and Arizona, and he has had people approach him who say, hey, can we help you pass out tracts and help you evangelize, pass out

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Bibles, whatever you're doing, and Dr. White's first question is, where are you a member?

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What church are you a member of? And if the person says, well, I'm not a member anywhere, he says, I'm sorry, you can't participate with us in that fashion because you are in disobedience to God.

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So the membership in the local church is a very important thing, in fact, I have been trying to remember every day for a while to remind our listeners that if they are not a member of a local

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Bible -believing church and they're not prayerfully looking for one, they are indeed living in disobedience, and you can email me at chrisarnson at gmail .com,

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chrisarnson at gmail .com if you cannot find a church near you. I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the world and I have already helped quite a number of people find churches near them even as far away as Perth, Australia, and I'm so glad that the couple who listened to Iron Trip and Zion Radio from Perth reached out to me asking, do

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I know of a church in Perth? And I do indeed know of one because the

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Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America planted one in Perth just recently, and it was very providential that this individual in my audience was to ask me that right after the planting of that church.

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So, but anyway, and of course, you have, if you live in Manhattan, you have New Covenant Church NYC that you should at least visit to prayerfully consider joining that church if you have no church of your own.

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So now bring us to the the definition of church planting that you believe is most biblical and tell us also about the different methodologies and ideologies with which you've been confronted that have, you know, given you reason to compare and contrast the different approaches that are out there.

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Yeah, so we'll start with the definition of a church and then we'll work back from that into planting a church.

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That's a better idea, yeah, go ahead. You can also just replace the word church planting with a church startup.

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So you're starting a church and our end goal is a church. That's what we want to have established.

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So then the process is just doing that. So we believe that a church is a group of baptized believers united in covenant to be the church and to do what churches are commanded to do in Scripture.

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So there's intentionality in that. So we got a group of baptized believers, so they've got to be professing

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Christians. We believe in regenerate church membership. So baptized believers and then united, so they're committed to each other intentionally.

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They know that they're committed. They're not just joining by osmosis or, you know, they just kind of walk through time.

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You know, like that's a thing, though, like in churches where nobody knows who the members are and people just sort of drift in and drift out.

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So a group of baptized believers united in covenant to be the church. So they know this is a church.

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They don't think it's just a Bible study, like a young adults Bible study or a men's group or women's group or a college group.

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So they're united to be the church and then to do the things that Scripture commands the church to do.

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So it's not something that we really have a lot of options for creativity.

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You know, I'm somewhat into the arts. I think arts are great. I think creativity is a good thing, but I think the church is described for us in Scripture and it's not up to our imaginations to figure out what a church is supposed to be and what a church is supposed to do.

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So that definition leads to the question, well, what are the things that Scripture commands the church to do?

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So then we have a list of things we believe Scripture commands the church to do, and those are evangelism, discipleship, practicing biblical church membership, biblical church leadership, that being elders and deacons, biblical preaching and teaching, the ordinances, worship, fellowship, prayer, accountability, and discipline, and giving, and missions.

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So noticeably absent are things like painting the park and digging wells in foreign countries.

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Not that it's a bad thing to do those things, but those things are outside of what

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Scripture commands the church to do. So back to our definition, though, like, if a church is a group of baptized believers united in covenant to be the church and do what churches are commanded to do, then the way you start a church is by getting a group of baptized believers to unite, which that uniting in covenant under a membership covenant is actually kind of interesting that we're on the radio today, because the last

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Sunday of the month of November is our one -year anniversary of covenanting. Wow. So I'm very, very thankful for that.

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We had our first five -members covenant a year ago at the end of November. So when you're listening to church planting language, there are certain types of people with certain philosophies and even regard for Scripture that will use the language of, our church covenanted on such and such day.

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And then there are other people, which is kind of the mainstream, who will say our church launched on a certain day.

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There's really, like, two different sets of language and sets of definitions and ideologies and philosophies that are kind of the standard in the church planting world today, and the one is from the church marketing movement and the seeker -sensitive church growth movement, and then the other,

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I believe, is the biblical way. So all this came up in our conversation, because I've attended two church planting conferences in the last month, and the two could not have been more different from each other.

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So that's what brings us up. Well, why don't you give an outline of one and then follow with an outline of the other that you saw at these two different, radically different, conferences, and then we'll get into a comparison between those two, not only with each other, but with the

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Scriptures, most importantly. Yeah. Okay, I'm gonna pull up, oh,

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I have it here. So I have an outline of the sermons that were given at the one conference.

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So this is the second one that I went to. It was hosted by Nine Mark Ministries down at Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington, DC.

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It was on church planting and revitalization. So the sermon titles were things like pray for slow growth.

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Secondly, define the we. Define the church. Thirdly, preach and pray.

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Fourth, watch your tone. Fifth, press toward the goal. Sixth, be needy.

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Seventh, get the right leaders. And eighth was encouragement. So those are the sermon titles.

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So there was nothing about, like, visionary entrepreneurship. It was just very different.

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I mean, pray for slow growth. The speaker did not speak against fast growth, and he acknowledged that sometimes it is

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God's will to give a church fast growth. But don't praise that.

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Praise it. God will grow the church in faithfulness, in stability, in maturity, in conformity to Christ.

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And that is probably the very last thing on the minds of those planting a church.

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Well, I should say, on the minds of most of those planting a church. Yeah. And you know, there's a lot of reasons for that, and they come down to very, very practical things.

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Like, you have to be able to pay the rent, and, you know, if you can't pay the rent on your apartment, you're in big trouble.

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And generally speaking, your funding is tied to results. If you don't produce results, your funding gets cut, and that produces massive pressure, massive stress in the life and the marriages of these people who are pastoring and church planting.

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So they have to produce results, otherwise their organizations will say, okay, well, you know, we only have so much money available for church planting, and you're not producing, therefore we're going to send our money to someone who is.

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So I would like to see a complete overhaul in even the funding model and the philosophy of funding church planting that is the standard today in New York City and across America and the largest church planting organizations and church planting networks.

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Yeah. Well, so you had the

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Nine Marks. That's a very short summary of what they presented at their conference, so I don't know if you want to continue with the

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Nine Marks model or if you want to move on now to the... Yeah, let me talk about that just a little more.

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We had the second one that I listed there was Define the We Defining the Church.

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That one was... I mean, it's two points of the sermon where the first was define the community, and his emphasis was on the gospel and the clarity of the gospel, and he's asking, do your people know the gospel?

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Can they define the gospel? Why would we want to remove the thing which makes us unique, and that being the gospel, in order to have an affinity group church?

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So you can gather an affinity group together for any sort of purpose, whether it's a bowling club or NASCAR or, you know, trains or something, like just people who have common interests will get together, and so if you attempt to build a church based on a target group that is not just in that culture, like, you know, you can certainly say, well, we're moving to Iraq and we're going to try and reach the

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Kurdish people, because the Kurdish people are the ones who live in northern Iraq. That's one thing.

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But, you know, if you come to New York and you say, we're going to plant a church for college students, when they're all mixed in with the rest of society, we see in Scripture that the church breaks down those walls of hostility and the barriers between people groups, and so it's not physically appropriate to aspire or to design your church to reach one type of person, whether that be the black community or the white community or Hispanics or Asians or old or young or families or singles.

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Like, you should be planting a church that is designed to reach the people that are in that area.

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And obviously there can be language barriers which make for the need to have separate churches, but if you're all speaking the same language, you need to be united in the gospel rather than united in some cultural subgroup that you've used to target the church.

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So that was the first point of that sermon, was the community being based on the gospel uniting, and the second was to draw boundaries.

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He said, do not blur those lines between the believer and the unbeliever and establish meaningful membership.

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Now in the second conference that I went to, it was hosted by Redeemer City to City here in New York, and it was a joint venture hosted by Redeemer, but the group that was speaking was this new

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Australian... I think that it would be fair to call them

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Armenian, definitely charismatic, and definitely egalitarian, because one of the speakers was a lady, and they kept on really promoting how she was the lead pastor of a church.

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So in that session, particularly the lady's message, she kept on emphasizing how church is all about building up a wall and getting people to come inside the wall, and then once they're inside, then you are to equip them and then to send them out to reach those who are out, and then get the people who are outside to come in and be part of the in.

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And she was saying that that's bad, and I was like, no, that's exactly what we're supposed to do.

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The church is an equipping center. And instead, she drew a different diagram that had no barriers, no boundaries at all, and instead was...

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she told this story, you know, because if you can't prove it from Scripture and you can't prove it from a proposition, then you just tell a moving story.

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And the story was this, that they had a man who... well, they had... the church had a need, and that need was for a secretary, and they couldn't find someone to volunteer to do it, to send out the church newsletter.

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So they asked for volunteers, and the only person who volunteered was a practicing witch. And this man was a warlock, so this man is a warlock, and he volunteers to send out the church newsletters.

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And they let him do it. Sorry. Yeah, so they let him do it, and this lady's telling the story about how wonderful this was, that they've got a warlock sending out the church email.

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And I'm just, like, I'm about to, like, go through the roof here, sitting on my hands and just, like, biting my tongue, and just, like, oh, don't say anything,

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Andy. Don't raise your hand. Just behave and be good. Let me give you a context here.

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This is a pastor's meeting with 200 of the most prominent pastors in New York City, all sitting around listening to this lady speak.

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And she has just trashed the traditional, historic, Orthodox model of what a church is, that it's

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Christians. And she said that that's bad, and that that is too exclusive, and you need to make unbelievers feel like this is their church.

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And anyway, so after she finished her message, one of my buddies came over, and because he knew that I had,

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I was going to have something to say, and so he sat next to me, like, so what'd you think of that? And I was, like,

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I think that's ridiculous. And he's, like, well, why? And then we hit right to the issue, and the issue where the rubber meets the road for most of us here in New York.

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We don't usually have too many witches and warlocks, but there are some. It's more so the issue of, do you have unbelievers performing in your service as your band?

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Do you have unbelievers leading your congregation in music, in worship of God? That's a very common thing with many churches, even evangelical ones.

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Well, they are more concerned with the professional quality of the music than they are of the state, the spiritual state of the one singing or playing an instrument.

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Yeah, yeah, and that's what, to my knowledge, that's what all of the churches being planted today are doing, in New York City, anyway.

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They don't really ask too many questions about whether or not the person who is picking the songs and leading the congregation in worship of God actually believes in the

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God that they're singing about. And I think that's a huge problem, because what you've got at the root of all of this is unbelief.

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You have unbelievers leading you, you have the one who's planning this whole thing, who's planning the

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Church, organizing the Church, who seems to not believe that the Gospel really is the path of God to salvation, that you need something other than the

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Gospel to build the Church, to grow the Church, to unite the Church, and to hold the Church. So you have to go then to, um, all of these surveys say this, and the cultural anthropologist says that, and it's, like, the golden calf of our church -planting culture is contextualization, and where they'll have, like, a network of churches that are all of the same name and the same theology and philosophy and in the same city, but then, sorry,

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I misspoke, they don't have the same theology, but they're all the same brand. So they have a multi -site church, but then they'll say each church is contextualized to its community.

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But practically speaking, here in New York City, what that means is that the church that is in the heart of, like, the gay community, well, that church is open and affirming.

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And the church, which, for those who don't know, open and affirming means pro -gay, they don't think that it's a problem, that you don't need to repent from homosexuality.

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And they don't even all agree on issues like monogamy and sex outside of, now that same -sex marriage is legal in,

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I believe, in every state, I might be wrong, but some would require marriage, even though we wouldn't view it as a real marriage, some would require some kind of a monogamous commitment before they have sex, but they're not all agreed on that, you know, because they're not even basing what they believe and do upon the scriptures anyway.

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Yeah, and so what they're doing is, it's like sticking their finger in the air to feel which direction the wind is blowing, and then saying, okay, that's the direction it's going, therefore that's the direction we are going to go, and that's pervasive, that's everywhere.

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And so if you think that your small group leader who's, like, leading your weekly

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Bible study needs to be a Christian, you might have a hard time finding a church or a pastor who shares that same conviction.

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Or if you think that the music leader needs to be a

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Christian, you're gonna have a hard time finding that here in this city.

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So these are really two very different ways, and because of the prominence of the founder of Redeemer City to City, Tim Keller, many people think that, oh, it must be solid because, you know, it's associated with Tim Keller.

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And of course many others would draw a completely different conclusion for the same reason. Yeah, and so the issue, though, is that it's sort of like an iceberg where you see something above the surface, but there's a lot beneath the surface.

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And I'm troubled because I only know just a little bit, I only know a few stories,

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I only know a few years worth of history, but I know that there's some 30 years of churches being planted in this recent resurgence, and I'm having people who are former staff members of various church plants telling me all sorts of things that are just mind -boggling.

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So that's where I'm really seeing this stark contrast, the difference between a church -planting philosophy that's really based on Scripture and a church - planting philosophy that is based on pragmatism and cultural anthropology.

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Well, we have to go to our first break right now, and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is

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ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

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Please give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves personal and private matter. Don't go away,

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God willing we will be right back with Pastor Andy Woodard on Church -Planting

33:38

Finding the Biblical Methodology. James White here, co -founder of Alpha Omega Ministries and occasional guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

34:02

I'm so delighted that my friend Chris Arnzen will be heading down to Atlanta for the next G3 conference from January 17th to the 19th, 2019, where I'll be joining a very impressive lineup of speakers on the theme,

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A Biblical Understanding of Missions. Speakers include John Piper, Steve Lawson, Vodie Baucom, Mark Dever, Conrad Mbewe, Phil Johnson, Josh Bice, yours truly, and many more.

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I hope you all join Chris and me for this phenomenal event. For more details go to G3conference .com,

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that's G3conference .com. Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, announcing a new website with an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a

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Christian perspective. Try World Now at no charge for 90 days by going to GetWorldNow .com,

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My name is Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries, as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier Ministries.

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I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the Doctor of Ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.

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I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.

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It's called New Covenant Church, NYC. They are a Reformed Baptist Church that meets in Midtown Manhattan.

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You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www .ncc .nyc.

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They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

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If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching, in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit

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New Covenant Church, NYC. Again, their information can be found at www .ncc

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.nyc. Have a great day. One sure way all

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners can help keep my show on the air is to support my advertisers. I know you all use batteries every day, so I'm urging you all from now on to exclusively use

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That's BatteryDepot .com. Hi, I'm Stephan Lindblad, Assistant Professor of Systematic Theology at IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas.

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I accepted this call to teach at the seminary because I'm firmly convinced that the people of God in the churches of our

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Lord Jesus Christ need to be firmly grounded in the truth of Holy Scripture. I'm excited to be teaching such subjects as the nature of theology and the doctrine of Scripture and even the doctrine of the person and work of Jesus Christ.

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Our churches and our people need to be well grounded in these truths. Indeed, future ministers of the gospel need to understand these truths in order to proclaim them to all of God's people.

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If you want to learn more about our program, visit us online at IRBSSeminary .org.

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James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know

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That's PTLBibleRebinding .com Charles Haddon Spurge once said, give yourself unto reading.

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Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And don't forget to continue to pray for Mike Gadosh.

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He is home recovering from very serious open -heart surgery that he underwent successfully, thanks be to God, not long ago.

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And we do thank our great physician, the Lord Jesus Christ, for getting him through that very dangerous and deadly surgery successfully and for giving him rapidly growing health.

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Thank you so much Lord Jesus. Mike Gadosh is very important to me personally, being my first pastor after becoming born again and also being a sponsor of Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

43:26

We are now back with Andy Woodard, the lead pastor at New Covenant Church NYC in Manhattan.

43:32

We are discussing church planting in search of the most biblical approach. We do have an anonymous listener who has a question for you already who says, how are we to approach those that are self -ordained pastors who are shepherding churches that they have planted in a way that is not according to the scriptures, in a way that you did not recommend in the outset of the program?

44:02

Are we to give them the same level of respect that you would give a pastor should other pastors recognize them as colleagues in ministry?

44:10

How do we approach this situation? That's a good question. I kind of have a growing sort of philosophy on interacting with other pastors.

44:26

I'm realizing that my time is limited and I only have so many hours in a day and days in a week and all that, so I don't necessarily go to every pastor's meeting that I'm invited to, and I don't attend every conference in the city, and I do that sort of thing, and I mean, sometimes

44:52

I just don't go to stuff because it doesn't fit in my calendar, but other times

44:57

I could make it fit in my calendar, but I think it's going to be basically a waste of time.

45:06

So, I mean, obviously not everybody is pastoring in New York City where there's just a ton of pastoral events happening on a weekly basis that you could just book your calendar full of pastors' meetings, but I mean,

45:23

I think you obviously should be respectful, and I would hope that, especially if you are a more serious -minded, biblically -regulated person and you're a pastor, maybe over time you can be able to influence some of these people that are self -appointed pastors, self -appointed church planners who are really following the winds of the culture and take them to the side, because what they have to acknowledge is that every year a whole new crop of church planning books come out that are filled with new philosophies and methodologies and strategies, and so, like, that meeting that I went to here in New York hosted by Redeemer, that was promoting what they call missional church, and the reason for that is because they acknowledged that the attractional model that they had been endorsing is not working as well as it used to, therefore they want to implement something else.

46:38

And so I am observing a hunger or a desire for something else, for the next best thing, and that potentially could lead to openness to say, well, let's consider the

46:55

Scripture. Let's consider what the Bible says a church is and what a church is supposed to do and what a church is not.

47:03

And maybe in time, especially as they observe, because they're mostly concerned with results, and usually it's well -intentioned.

47:15

The desire is to reach people. You don't want people to go to hell, so you want to reach people.

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But if they see your faithfulness over time and they see a slow, steady growth of people being converted and baptized and joining your church and then sticking around, and they'll see a committed body of believers that are serving and giving and you don't have to run a big end -of -the -year giving campaign in order to twist people's arms into giving to your church.

47:47

I think if you do that over time, it will be compelling and people will see that and say, wait a second, why is your church more stable?

47:58

Why is your church growing in a healthier fashion?

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And why are you as a pastor not as stressed out by your congregation as, you know,

48:11

I am? Or whatever, you know, that sort of thing. So I think if you combine patience with wisdom in your relationships with those other pastors,

48:21

I mean, you can obviously just keep your distance, but I think that that might be a bit short -sighted, because anybody who's willing to learn,

48:35

I mean, who are they going to learn from if they're not learning from the people who have a higher regard for Scripture?

48:40

Right. So if they prove to be the person that the book of Proverbs calls a scorner, then you just, you know, walk away, just leave them.

48:50

But if they have a hunger to learn and to grow, then it's better not to burn the bridges.

49:01

Right. I don't know how much this is connected with what you just said, I think it is very connected, but I have, as you know, an annual pastor's luncheon.

49:13

I actually am now at the stage where I'm doing at least two a year. And my next one, by the way, for everyone listening who is a man in ministry leadership,

49:25

I'm having our next pastor's luncheon, God willing, on Thursday, January 3rd, 2019, at the

49:32

Carlisle Fire and Rescue Banquet Hall. And our speaker, God willing, is going to be Dr.

49:37

Tony Costa, and he is professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

49:44

But when I have these events, I only invite men, and that actually got,

49:51

I don't know if you're aware, that got me in a bit of trouble on Facebook. A swarm of feminists began attacking me in writing for only inviting men to the pastor's luncheon, and there were female clerics in the all over the

50:06

Cumberland County area making all kinds of slanderous accusations against me.

50:12

They were saying that I did this because I was not, I had no self -control sexually, that was one reason that I didn't want women there.

50:22

One black female cleric said that I must be a racist also.

50:28

And when I challenge these people about slandering me in public, who don't even know who I am, based on the fact that I believe in exclusively male leadership, and even an egalitarian can have an event that's only for men or for women,

50:43

I mean it's really nonsensical. But when I invite men in the ministry, I extend the invitations to evangelicals.

50:52

I don't go out of my way to invite liberal mainline ministers or Roman Catholic priests or Eastern Orthodox priests or rabbis, but if they show up I'm not going to escort them to the door.

51:09

Even if a female pastor, which I believe is oxymoronic, sorry for that folks, but even if a female pastor shows up I'm not going to make her leave.

51:19

But the invitation, the free invitation, is only extended to those who are evangelical.

51:25

Now I'm assuming that what you were just saying is somewhat connected to that, in that you don't want to necessarily say well

51:31

I'm not going to even associate in any way with a self -ordained man who claims to be a pastor and has planted a church without any blessing or sanction or involvement from another congregation.

51:43

That doesn't, you shouldn't do that extreme, doesn't mean that you have to have them preach in your pulpit when you're on vacation.

51:50

Yeah. I mean, I have a friend who has planted a church out in Long Island and he, to my knowledge, did not have a sending church, and I wish he would have.

52:05

However, the churches that he came out of, if I remember right, were either, like, had significant problems in their theology or else he hadn't been in them long enough.

52:25

And you know, you could definitely say, well, okay, he was too young and he should have stayed with a sodal church long enough for them to want to send him, but I don't know all the ins and outs of that and perhaps they're not interested in church planting.

52:39

I don't know. I don't know all of that, but I would consider, you know, the friend out in Long Island who planted a church and,

52:50

I mean, on the one hand, that congregation called him.

52:56

They said, yeah, we want to start this church. Now, they didn't have other people, they didn't have another established church saying it, but it was a group of believers coming together and saying, we're

53:08

Christians, we're Reformed, we want to start this church, and there's nothing within an hour of us, therefore, let's do this.

53:17

So, I don't necessarily want to hold any of that against him.

53:23

And of course, that brings up the issue of patience. There is no reason really for people to foolhardedly rush into things and basically be pragmatic and compromise on biblical truth just because they want something to happen more quickly than it is developing.

53:50

So, that's just one thing to consider, but we are going to continue our discussion on this issue, on church planting, finding the most biblical approach, and if you'd like to join us with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

54:11

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N -O.

54:17

I just got an email from a listener and I almost forgot the spelling of my own last name.

54:25

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com and we will get to you, all of you who have been sending in emails as long as the

54:34

Lord enables us regarding time, but we will get to each of you one by one if possible.

54:42

But please, as always, give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter and we look forward to hearing from you and your questions for Andy Woodard at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

54:58

And by the way, this is the longer than normal break because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, they have to localize

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Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida, so they use this time to air their own public service announcements and their own commercials.

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So please be patient with us and use this time to write down the information provided by my advertisers and sponsors so that you can more frequently and more successfully patronize them because we rely upon our advertisers to exist.

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We rely upon their advertising dollars. So please write down the information that they provide.

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Also send in a question to Andy Woodard at chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away, God willing, we're gonna be back after these messages from our sponsors.

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Hi, Phil Johnson here.

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I'm Executive Director of John MacArthur's Media Ministry, Grace to You. And I'm also an occasional guest on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

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So I'm delighted that my friend Chris Arnzen and I will be heading down to Atlanta for the

57:48

G3 conference where I'll be joining James White, Steve Lawson, Votie Baucom, Mark Dever, Conrad Mbewe, Todd Friel, Josh Bice, and a host of other speakers to address the topic of biblical understanding of missions.

58:04

Chris Arnzen and I hope to see you all at this very important conference from January 17th through the 19th.

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Make sure you stop by the Iron Sharpen's Iron Exhibitors booth to say hi to Chris. For more details go to g3conference .com.

58:20

That's g3conference .com. See you there. Hello, my name is

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James Renahan and I'm the president of IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas. The Word of God says, if a man desires the office of an overseer, he desires a good thing.

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Do you have the desire to serve Jesus Christ in pastoral ministry? Twenty years ago, the

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Institute of Reformed Baptist Studies at Westminster Seminary, California was born. For those two decades, these institutions worked together to train men for ministry in Reformed Baptist churches.

58:59

It's been a wonderful partnership. Now we have advanced our school into an independent seminary offering a full program of courses leading to the

59:08

Master of Divinity degree. This is IRBS Theological Seminary. We believe that the scriptures of the

59:13

Old and New Testaments are the inspired and inerrant Word of God, that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh who came to save sinners by his life, death, and resurrection, and that the task of the church is to honor and serve the triune

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God in all things. IRBS Theological Seminary is dedicated by God's grace to preparing godly ministers who will be committed to these doctrines.

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Do you sense a call to serve Jesus Christ in his church as a pastor? Why not consider IRBS Theological Seminary?

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You'll find more information at irbsseminary .org. That's irbsseminary .org, two

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S's in the middle. I hope to hear from you soon. God bless you. Chris Sorensen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here.

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I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years. His name is Dan Buttafuoco.

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Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind.

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Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself. Recently he wrote a book titled Consider the

01:00:13

Evidence for the Bible. Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword. Dan also has a master's degree in theology.

01:00:21

Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states. He represents many

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Christians in serious injury matters all over the country. Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.

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He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy, and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for 1 million dollars or more, and in approximately 10 different states.

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In Illinois, his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history. In New York, his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the

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Law Journal. If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state,

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I recommend that you call Dan. Consultations are free. There is no fee unless you win.

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Dan Buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878. 1 -800 -669 -4878.

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Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

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That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops, and local hangouts,

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For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385 -8333.

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That's 631 -385 -8333. Or visit liyfc .org.

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That's liyfc .org. My name is

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Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries, as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier Ministries.

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I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the doctor of ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.

01:03:00

I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.

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It's called New Covenant Church, NYC. They are a Reformed Baptist Church that meets in Midtown Manhattan.

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You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www .ncc .nyc.

01:03:21

They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

01:03:27

If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching, in New York City I'd like to recommend that you visit

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New Covenant Church, NYC. Again, their information can be found at www .ncc

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.nyc. Have a great day. Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnson on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:03:55

I would like to introduce you to my good friends Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

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Todd and Patty specialize in supplying Reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them affordable to everyone.

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Since 1987, the family -owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available

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Christian books and Bibles at the best possible prices. Unlike other book sites, they make no effort to provide every book that is available because, frankly, much of what is being printed is not worth your time.

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That means you can get to the good stuff faster. It also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical, and otherwise faith -insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors.

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Their website is CVBBS .com. Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure, and purchase with confidence as Todd and Patty work in service to you, the

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Church, and to Christ. That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at CVBBS .com.

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That's CVBBS .com. Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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And you can call CVBBS .com at their toll -free number 800 -656 -0231.

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800 -656 -0231. You can call that number Monday through Friday from 10 a .m.

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to 4 30 p .m. Eastern Time. If you mention Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, not only will you receive free shipping on any order of at least $50, you'll also receive the free book

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Always Reforming by David Engelsma, a publication of Reform Free Publishing Association.

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You'll get that absolutely free of charge with an order of $50 or more if you mention Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:05:48

We just have a few announcements to make before we return to Andy Woodard. First of all, please mark your calendars for tomorrow,

01:05:57

Wednesday, November 7th from 4 to 6 p .m. Eastern Time. We have returning as a guest to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Harry Reeder and he is going to be discussing his book 3D

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Leadership Defining, Developing, and Deploying Christian Leaders Who Can Change the

01:06:17

World. That's tomorrow 4 to 6 p .m. Eastern Time here on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Harry Reeder returns as a guest.

01:06:24

Then tomorrow night, don't forget that my friend David Wood, who is an apologist specializing in exchanging debate with Muslims and atheists, but I think primarily

01:06:40

Muslims, he is going to be debating Muhammad Hijab tomorrow night and that is going to be held at 6 p .m.

01:06:53

and that will be held at the York College of Performing Arts in Jamaica, New York City.

01:07:02

And David Wood is really a remarkable person. I think that he could be accurately described as having a photographic memory and he knows the

01:07:12

Quran cover to cover and I would urge you to attend this if you are at all capable and bring

01:07:19

Muslim friends with you. For more details on this event you can call New York Apologetics at 866 -323 -3336, 866 -323 -3336, and you can also go to NewYorkApologetics .com

01:07:36

and the words New York are spelled out, they are not abbreviated. Then this weekend,

01:07:42

Friday and Saturday, I, God willing, will be in Quakertown, Pennsylvania at the

01:07:47

Grace Bible Fellowship Church of Quakertown. That's Friday November 9th and Saturday November 10th for the annual

01:07:56

Quakertown Conference on Reformed Theology. The theme is the glory of the cross and the speakers include

01:08:01

David Garner, Ray Ortlund, Richard Phillips, Timothy Gibson, and Carlton Winn. And I hope that you see me during a break or multiple breaks,

01:08:10

Manning and Iron Sharpens Iron exhibit his booth there. If you'd like to register, go to AllianceNet .org,

01:08:17

AllianceNet .org, click on events and then scroll down to Quakertown Conference on Reformed Theology. That's this

01:08:23

Friday and Saturday, November 9th and the 10th at Grace Bible Fellowship Church, Quakertown, Pennsylvania.

01:08:28

Then, coming up in January, the G3 Conference returns to Atlanta, Georgia, technically

01:08:35

College Park, Georgia, a suburb of Atlanta, at the Georgia International Convention Center.

01:08:41

And the theme this January is the mission of God, a biblical understanding of missions. The roster is just as long and just as impressive as it always is.

01:08:52

We have speaking there, God willing, James White, John Piper, Stephen Lawson, who you just heard in a commercial for New Covenant Church, NYC.

01:09:03

We have Mark Dever, we have Votie Baucom, we have Conrad M. Bayway, Tim Challies, Phil Johnson.

01:09:12

We have Stephen J. Nichols, the president of Reformation Bible College in Sanford, Florida, the college founded by the late

01:09:19

R .C. Sproul and Ligonier Ministries. And many more people are on that roster of speakers.

01:09:26

If you would like to join me there, go to G3Conference .com, G3Conference .com. It's being held

01:09:32

Thursday, January 17th, through Saturday, January 19th. And there is a

01:09:38

Spanish speaking edition of the conference on Wednesday, January 16th, so tell your Spanish -speaking and bilingual friends about the

01:09:45

Spanish -speaking edition of the G3 Conference. I strongly urge you, if you have a church, parachurch ministry or business that you want to promote to a very large group of people,

01:09:58

I strongly urge you to register for an exhibitors booth at the G3 Conference, just like I will be manning, because they are expecting between four and five thousand people to attend this

01:10:09

January at the G3 Conference. So please tell them that you heard about that event from Chris Arns and on Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio.

01:10:17

Last but not least, there's another event I am attending. This will be my first time attending the

01:10:23

Deep South Founders Conference in Laurel, Mississippi, January 24th through the 26th at Bethlehem Baptist Church in Laurel, Mississippi.

01:10:34

I am so delighted that I am going to be witness for two conferences in a row, featuring my dear friend

01:10:42

Dr. Conrad Mbewe, pastor of Kibwata Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia, Africa. I believe he's the most powerful preacher alive on the planet

01:10:48

Earth. He is the keynote speaker at the Deep South Founders Conference January 24th through the 26th, and he is going to be joined by,

01:10:59

God willing, Rusty Reed, Gerald Henderson, Jason Goodwin, and Bobby Crenshaw.

01:11:06

The theme is sanctification. If you would like to join me there at the Deep South Founders Conference, go to deepsouthfounders .com,

01:11:16

deepsouthfounders .com. Last but not least, if you love Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio, you do not want us to disappear from the airwaves.

01:11:23

You love the guests and topics that we feature that very often are never heard anywhere else, and you love sharing the free mp3s with your family, friends, and loved ones, please consider prayerfully going to ironsherpanzirenradio .com,

01:11:36

click support, then click click to donate now. You could donate to Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio instantly with a debit or credit card, and you could also send in a check the old -fashioned way if that makes you feel more comfortable, to the address that will appear on your screen when you click support at ironsherpanzirenradio .com.

01:11:55

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01:12:05

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01:12:29

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We also want you to send an email if you'd like to ask a question to our guest Andy Woodard.

01:13:51

It's chrisarnsen at gmail .com C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com

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and please as always give us your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside the USA and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

01:14:10

Let's see here we have BB in Cumberland County Pennsylvania who asks

01:14:18

I know very godly women who I believe are their intentions are absolutely correct but they have disobeyed scripture by entering into pastoral ministry.

01:14:32

The ones that I know personally are not liberal they're not leftists or apostates they believe in the inerrancy of scripture but I obviously believe that they are wrongly interpreting and exegeting scripture they are actually is a cheating scripture.

01:14:47

How are we to treat women in these positions? That's kind of similar to a question we got before isn't it

01:14:52

Andy? Yeah it is. That's always a question that you got to stop and pray for a little bit.

01:15:10

Because as I think about pastors female pastors that I know here in New York City I know of one who would be evangelical and then one who would be quite liberal and I definitely think that those two are in very different places

01:15:30

I mean the one is a sister in Christ and the other is a wolf. Yeah right I am surrounded in Carlisle Pennsylvania in Cumberland County by churches who are part of the

01:15:42

Church of God Findlay Ohio denomination they are best described

01:15:48

I think as Wesleyan Baptists and they believe in the ordination of women but these congregations are typically very conservative otherwise they believe in the inerrancy of scripture the women involved in pastorate are not feminists they are not pro -abortionists they are not pro -homosexual they are not off the rails with left -wing ideology they just believe which is actually has a long history in the

01:16:15

Wesleyan holiness movement of having women in leadership but they are two different categories.

01:16:22

I mean I guess just my simple answer would be to be kind to them, love them, but I mean if you are convinced that scripture doesn't permit that then you know you can't join their church you can't be like partnered with them in that way you can be their friend though and you can talk to them and I mean

01:16:55

I'm This was a female caller? It's B .B. B .B.

01:17:00

did not define whether he or she is female and we must remember

01:17:06

B .B. Warfield. Just the letters B .B. I don't know

01:17:13

I mean I think it's it's a lot easier and far more appropriate for a lady who's a

01:17:21

Christian to befriend a female evangelical pastor and just be sisters in Christ with them and recognize that you're probably not going to change their mind and it is what it is.

01:17:41

When I used to live on Long Island and I was a member of Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville Long Island which later became

01:17:48

Grace Reform Baptist Church of Long Island which still exists now in Merrick New York.

01:17:55

I had an office in the church building because we had where I should say was employed by WMCA radio at the time and WMCA paid for rent to have me have an office in the church building and that my church got free advertising and involved in that relationship.

01:18:18

I should never say my church my friend Bill Shishko would be upset with me it's Christ's Church but it happens to be the church where I was a member.

01:18:25

But a woman who listened to Calvary Baptist Church's radio program on WMCA heard a sermon by my minister at the time

01:18:36

Mike Gaydosh founder of Solid Ground Christian Books and Mike's message was on the fact that the

01:18:44

Bible teaches a exclusively male headship in the church and even in marriage and a woman who was an elder in a liberal

01:18:56

Presbyterian Church heard that and she called me up because I answered the church phone as well when

01:19:04

I was there and she said I'm an elder in a Presbyterian Church I heard your pastor's message

01:19:10

I now know I have to leave not only my position as elder but even the congregation where I'm a member because if they ordain women and I disagree with it now so radically

01:19:22

I don't know how I could remain there and I wish I had kept in contact with that that woman but that was quite an amazing response

01:19:30

I had after one sermon she was moved by my God to resign from her position that's incredible yeah so I mean and there are there are many women out there who are brilliant women who have many degrees who are to use their gifts but they can't use their gifts in the way the

01:19:53

Bible prohibits them I mean that has nothing to do with them being inferior at all yeah we have

01:20:00

RJ in White Plains New York and RJ asks don't you think it's important when people are planting a church that they have to really evaluate and do some soul -searching as to their genuine motives behind doing it and also the location that they choose there are some people who plant churches right down the road from a completely fine biblically sound church and wind up siphoning people away from those churches even though they agree basically on most important things don't you think that sometimes it can be foolish to plant the church especially when you're doing so right in the backyard of a church that exists there that is honoring

01:20:42

God already yeah that's kind of a leading question for sure yeah obviously you should examine your motives and have your this is the importance of having the ascending church who really knows you that they've observed your life over a period of time and they know your motives and they know that this wasn't something that you put yourself up to and the location as well like that you're not you're not doing this to try and steal people from another church obviously there's there's to some degree need for more churches everywhere even in prominent seminary towns like there's there's room for more churches in Louisville Kentucky however

01:21:33

I don't think there is the greatest need in Louisville Kentucky for more church plants so I think that I think every church planner should should pause and take a moment to really wrestle with the possibility of foreign missions and going to an unreached people group don't don't just go to some vacation destination but consider going to a stand country in the

01:22:00

Middle East consider going to a place where Christianity is illegal and quite frankly if if a person if a pastor or a church planner is unwilling to do that I don't think that they should be pastoring obviously

01:22:16

God directs and he sends people he equips people for various places but it is it said by someone else that they think that God is calling more people to missions than those who are going to missions there there are many people who are refusing to go for fear or comfort or a variety of reasons and I don't think that it's the best thing to just be planting more and more churches in on top of each other when there are areas that have so few right and I know of one attempt at a church plant that I'm not going to mention where it is or the people involved but I could not help but think that the location that was chosen was specifically to siphon people away from a neighbor church that believed theologically the same thing almost in every way and there was some bad blood and I couldn't help but think that there was some motivation of vengeance going on there but I mean you said that people should avoid planting churches in vacation spots well

01:23:29

I mean we don't want to go too far with that because I know folks who are planting a church in Hawaii and they're surrounded by Mormons and other false churches there the area of Hawaii where they are planting this church has no solidly reformed congregation so yeah

01:23:46

I mean you can't exclude every attempt to plant the church in a nice area can you

01:23:51

I'm not I'm not against it and granted I live in New York and a lot of people love New York but at the same time like where are the missionaries who are lining up to go to the stand countries to the 1040 window why is it always like the island countries in the

01:24:12

Caribbean that are packed full of missionaries another thing that popped into my head is that I personally don't have any problem with a group of solidly reformed

01:24:26

Christians planting a church right in the heart of the Bible Belt you might have 10 churches in a five -minute radius from the church you were planting that are even in the same denomination but they may be anti -calvinist they may be just very lukewarm or or just saturated with the nonsense of modern evangelical philosophy and they say we want

01:24:52

Sovereign Grace Church in that neighborhood I mean obviously I don't think that you would be opposed to that would you oh yeah and I totally understand that as well like I lived for five years in Greenville South Carolina and you know in a lot of ways it's it's very it's right in the middle of the the

01:25:11

Bible Belt even the buckle of the Bible Belt and there they're not necessarily too many reformed churches

01:25:20

I mean there are some and there's a couple schools and seminaries in that area as well but you know there's a there's always room for more particularly reformed and reformed

01:25:36

Baptist churches but I think that it would be really good if if every

01:25:42

Christian pastor every church planter attempts to be a foreign missionary and lets

01:25:48

God keep them in the United States rather than planning on being in the

01:25:54

United States and planning on being in the Bible Belt or planning on being right down the road from the church they were at before and instead of doing that if they attempt to take the gospel to people groups that have never heard the gospel

01:26:08

CJ in Lindenhurst Long Island New York says please don't get me wrong

01:26:14

I am NOT a believer in this modern insane social justice phenomenon but at the same time

01:26:22

I have heard of churches perhaps especially down south who will purposely plant churches that are all black congregants or other racial groups where because they think that birds of a feather flock together and are happiest when they are with people who look like them and behave like them in every way isn't this possibly a wicked act where you are purposely segregating people who are different from you in other churches rather than having them remain where you are oh yeah

01:27:01

I I've heard that sort of argument before mainly like 20 to 30 years ago

01:27:07

I don't hear that much of it now but maybe you do I don't know yeah I mean

01:27:12

I've heard before and I've heard it for different people groups and different types of situations like to say oh well if if a person is

01:27:21

Hispanic then they feel more comfortable in Hispanic Church if they're white and from the

01:27:27

South they feel more comfortable in a church that serves you know apple pie and fried chicken and and like I resonate with that I understand that and yeah obviously

01:27:36

I feel more at home wearing shorts and flip -flops instead of a coat in the winter are you in the

01:27:46

Calvary Chapel you know winter here is freezing it's so cold and I would much rather be among my people you know the

01:28:03

Floridians but I think that you're you're losing out on the power of the gospel if you are completely ignoring that whole factor that the gospel really does bring unity and it really does break down walls of hostility and that we need that we we as Christians need to know other believers and be even particularly this is all with the assumption that you are in the community that has more than one ethnicity in it if you're if everybody in your town is all of one ethnicity then yeah of course of course your church is gonna all look the same that's fine but if you're in a place that is you know 25 % white 25 %

01:28:55

Hispanic 25 % black and 25 % Asian and your church is like catered to one type of person

01:29:03

I don't think that that is biblical I don't think you should be catered towards any type of person but rather being catered towards faithfulness to Scripture and I believe that if you do that you will have a diverse congregation or at least the congregations reflective of the community unless you have some massive other problem like you run people off who happen to be children and they make noise or something you know you don't like kids in your service so you just run them off so obviously

01:29:45

I think the greater problem maybe you don't agree with me I think the greater problem by far is the effort to run out older folks the elderly folks and establish churches that are only based upon the tastes and desires and interests of young people

01:30:00

I think that there's a worship and even an idolatry of youth where the senior

01:30:05

Saints the gray -haired the silver -haired Saints are being looked upon as a nuisance like a cancer even that we've got to get rid of in order for us to enjoy the things that we want to enjoy yeah that that is a that's a very real problem and while I'm on the air right now let me just go ahead and throw this out there our church is we have 13 members and around 25 attending and I think we have three people over the age of 50 and everybody else is young and we would love to have more older folks who are biblically faithful and wise not not just old but old and wise too if they if there are you know retired pastors or retired faithful lay people from churches that have said you know we'd really like to use our retirement for the glory of God and we have a good strong financial foundation we would love to have people like that that are older move to New York live in Manhattan and get part of our church because honestly it is extremely hard to find faithful biblical older people in New York City and as everybody retires in Florida yeah they'll retire move to the south and for our church like we're so young that it would be really nice to have some some couples in the church who've been married for 40 years to to walk through to walk alongside with young married couples and help them by sharing their lives and their experience with these people now obviously it's it's a false idea to think that I as a pastor have to have experienced something in order to teach what the

01:31:58

Bible says about it you know I don't have to have had a child to say what the Bible says about parenting but nevertheless there is help in the wisdom and the experience of a person who has gone through these things before then of course

01:32:15

I'm assuming you're not having people fill out applications where you're questioning them we obviously see you're old but are you wise well let me let me put it like this if your church is genuinely sad to see you go then you're the type of person probably that we would love to have your church wants to get rid of you because you complain constantly then sorry that's what we're looking for and as far as the the churches that are primarily built upon one specific ethnic group obviously

01:32:55

I'm assuming you would agree that when it comes to language barriers that's a different story because obviously people have to hear although I love it when

01:33:02

I have seen the former church where I was a member on Long Island there was a time where there was a whole group of Spanish folks who came to fall in love with the doctrines of Sovereign Grace but they spoke very little

01:33:16

English and they would sit there with headphones on and there was somebody in the choir loft in a booth translating the message in Spanish but but other than that I mean obviously you don't see anything wrong with people going to a

01:33:27

Korean Church a Chinese Church a French Haitian Church Spanish Church because of the language barrier issue yeah if it's if it's in that language then great right if they're going to Korean Church that is speaking

01:33:44

Korean then sure but that's fine but if they're going to a Korean Church because they just don't like don't like to mix with people that are not

01:33:54

Korean then that's a problem and that's that's denying the opportunity to display the beauty and glory of the gospel because you have assembled a group of people that could get together even if Christ never lived died and rose again we have to go to our final break if you want to ask a question send it in immediately because we're running out of time

01:34:18

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com don't go away we'll be right back with our guest pastor

01:34:23

Andy Woodard of New Covenant Church NYC in our discussion on church planting right after these messages from our sponsors got to tell you for my money

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I would not be a servant of Christ hi I'm Mark Lukens pastor of Providence Baptist Church we are a reformed

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Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689 we are in Norfolk Massachusetts we strive to reflect

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Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do than how men view these things that's not the best recipe for popularity but since that wasn't the

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Apostles priority it must not be ours either we believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love if you live near Norfolk Massachusetts or plan to visit our area please come and join us for worship and fellowship you can call us at 508 -528 -5750 that's 508 -528 -5750 or go to our website to email us listen to past sermons worship songs or watch our

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01:46:23

welcome back this is Chris Arnzen if you just tuned us in our guest for the full two hours today has been and will continue to be

01:46:31

Andy Woodard he is pastor lead pastor of New Covenant Church NYC in Manhattan and we are discussing church planting searching for the best biblical methodology and if you'd like to join us do so now or forever hold your peace because we're rapidly running out of time

01:46:49

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com

01:46:55

what I'd like you to do Andy before I take any more listener questions is to really lay out the the main ways that people that you're aware of people in ministry are conducting church planting and if you could compare and contrast the the primary ways they are doing that with each other and with the scriptures yeah so my knowledge is basically three main ways of going about church planting today you have the attractional model and then the missional model and then whatever it is we're doing

01:47:38

I'm not sure what to call it maybe the traditional way or something so the attractional model is the idea of making the church appealing to unbelievers drawing them in through all sorts of secular attractions then the missional model is kind of the leftovers from the emergent church where it de -emphasizes doctrine and theology and is all about kind of a vague mission being on mission that seems to be a corrective or attempting to be a corrective for the attractional model where they realize that people were just coming and sitting in the pews and not doing anything and so the missional model is trying to get every member or every person they don't usually have membership but to get every person to be engaged in ministry which is a good a good desire but I think that the traditional biblical model includes that encompasses that through the appreciative of every believer so yeah then the traditional model is understanding that unbelievers are dead in their sins they're rebels and enemies against God and they must be spiritually raised from the dead in order for them to love

01:48:55

God and to love the church and to love his word and so we don't expect unbelievers to find church to be terribly interesting and so we're not designing the church to appeal to them we're designing the church for the glory of God and for obedience to his word and to be an equipping center to be edifying for believers and if it happens to be unbelievers with us yes we desire that they would hear the gospel be converted but Sunday Church is not a

01:49:25

Billy Graham crusade it is it is an assembly of the redeemed who are united in covenant to be the church and to practice the teachings of Scripture now we who are reformed tend to be very negative about the seeker sensitive movement and and people who actually alter their sermons and the way that they worship in order to appease the lost and in order to draw them in but at the same time and of course when

01:50:04

I say we were reformed usually do that that that is rapidly changing from what I have seen and it seems to be primarily amongst our

01:50:13

Presbyterian brothers no insult but I think that they would admit that where there is more seeker sensitive ideology being practiced in order to grow numerically and it seems to be a contradiction not only to the doctrines of sovereign grace but the

01:50:28

Bible itself more importantly which we believe the doctrines of sovereign grace are biblical but there are things though that we should be doing and correct me if I'm wrong

01:50:40

Andy that have an appeal to the lost like we are to extend open arms of love to them we are to you know we have churches that have regular meals where people gather and break bread and have fellowship and that that is something that's appealing to those outside of the church we do things we might even have special events that might have something about them that's appealing to your average lost person wandering outside the walls of your church but there's a difference between doing things that are completely compatible with the

01:51:22

Bible and when you're not doing things specifically with the main intention of just growing numerically when you're actually just trying to show the lost hey we love you we are willing to invite you in if you repent and God is a forgiving and merciful

01:51:43

God no matter what you've done that we are to do things that are attractive to some lost people aren't we yeah you know honestly

01:51:52

I've been thinking about this for a number of months maybe even over a year or so but I think that the the root issue of all of this is in our churches who who are we attempting to make the authority who called the shots in our churches is it

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God at his word or is it unbelievers and and that really is the distinction that becomes so obvious especially especially in time if you see

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God is authoritative and the word of God is authoritative that will set you in a certain trajectory and yes you want your music to be performed well you want your pianist to have practiced or your guitar player to have practiced and you don't want to have the song leader be a person who's tone -deaf and cannot sing the idea of excellence is also definitely a biblical concept you you want your your church building to be safe and painted nicely and your nursery to be clean and or whatever whatever you're doing needs to be done well for the glory of God and when you do those things well for the glory of God it will be appealing and attractive in the same way that unbelievers all across America love to eat a chick -fil -a because it's a good chicken sandwich and it's done for the glory of God so when we are doing the things that we do in our church unto the

01:53:31

Lord unbelievers should be able to see that and see yes this is this is quality and there's something about it that is desirable but it is not the same type of desire that they would find on a on a typical

01:53:50

Friday night doing the things that unbelievers typically do on Friday night I'm assuming that you don't have any problem with churches that on occasion do things recreationally that would be appealing to the lost not that they would be solely doing it to draw the lost by entertaining them but because the people in the church enjoy these specific things sporting events or whatever the issue is visits to all kinds of recreational activities amusement parks and so on where where the where the congregants are told you should invite your lost friends to this because not only we'll be enjoying ourselves but we do have a portion of that recreational event where we do have the

01:54:33

Word of God proclaimed and so on you don't have anything wrong with that do you yeah no I think that's fine and I also think it's fine just to do something fun even if there is no sermon like we had a church a gang of us went to a

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Yankees game and there was no sermon but we had a good time and of course our mutual friend

01:54:52

Ed Moore thinks that you've committed heresy by going to a Yankee game not a mess I would agree with that because I'm a huge Tampa Bay Rays fan for either team but we had a good time and it's also a great opportunity to invite unsaved friends and just to get to know them and help them see that yeah

01:55:14

Christians don't have to be weird and yeah we were we're humans and we love people and we're fun to be around and we're not supposed to import that into a worship service yeah yeah you can keep your baseball on the baseball field and be quite dangerous to be playing baseball in the worship service but that's not to say that we don't play baseball to the glory of God because we do and so for that reason we don't curse at the umpire and we don't try and railroad the catcher and various things like that we want to play even baseball for the glory of God but we play to win as well okay we have an anonymous listener in Canada this listener says so if someone has been at a church for years but now sees issues how would someone reconcile that with wanting to maintain let me maybe change the emphasis in the pronunciation how would someone reconcile that with someone wanting to maintain unity when should a person leave and that is basically the end of the questions so obviously this this could take an entire weeks of programming but in the brief time that we have left answer that to the best of your ability well that's what like four minutes or we have to we have two minutes yeah

01:56:58

I would say don't don't leave prematurely don't leave quickly and really really pray search the scriptures talk to the leadership if at all possible walk through this decision with the pastor that you disagree with like I resigned from a church that I did not agree with but I did not resign

01:57:24

I did not leave that church until I had the permission and blessing of my boss and you know obviously you can't always do that but as much as possible as much as I've been you live peaceably with all men and so I would

01:57:39

I would encourage you to be patient cautious and slow to leave unless it's really clear that you just have to okay well thank you anonymous keep listening to our interprets on radio in Canada and spreading the word there and beyond and don't forget folks the website for a new

01:57:59

Covenant Church NYC is NCC dot NYC that's

01:58:05

NCC dot NYC do you have any final words to just etch something that you find most important on the hearts and minds of our listeners yeah

01:58:16

I would say for pastors preach the word and pray and trust that God will build this church you don't have to abandon those things in order to see the church grow but if you put your hand to the plow and don't look back and trust the

01:58:34

Lord then in time God will give the fruit he will give the increase and even if you never see it the

01:58:43

Lord sees it the Lord knows and the Lord knows your sacrifice and your service and I have a message for those of you listening who might be financially blessed who has a heart for seeing churches thrive in areas where there is very little solid preaching and teaching available

01:59:03

New York City is a massive place filled with millions of people but there is not a lot of solid there are not a lot of solid churches there so please consider even sending a generous donation to NCC dot

01:59:17

NYC that's New Covenant Church New York City to help them as they are taking upon themselves a really important work in one of the most liberal and religiously diverse and ethnically diverse mission fields in the world once again that's

01:59:34

NCC dot NYC I want to thank you so much Pastor Andy Woodard I want to thank you for sponsoring our

01:59:39

Interpretation on Radio I want to thank everybody who listened especially those who took the time to write in questions and I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater