Christians in Canada

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five. Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white. And good afternoon, welcome to the dividing line today. Not sure how many of you saw this. But start off with this particular news bulletin. The parents of a blind seven-year-old who was sent to a religious school in Pakistan Have told how he was hung by his feet from a ceiling fan and beaten to death after failing to memorize the Quran.

The pair the parents of Muhammad Atif admitted that they had ignored their son Muhammad's repeated complaints about abuse at the madrasa. Police in the Punjab province Said that Muhammad's religious teacher Kari Zia Ziauddin Was now in custody charged with torturing and murdering the boy on Thursday.

Police said Ziauddin whose title Kari signifies He is a mullah had suspended the boy from a ceiling fan for an hour before he beat him. When he realized how badly Muhammad was hurt. He apparently fled instead of taking him to a hospital.

The boy's body was not discovered until the next day when fellow pupils including Muhammad's cousin Realized he had not slept in his bed. They searched the madrasa and found his battered corpse in Ziauddin's room.

An autopsy concluded that Muhammad who was blind from birth died of severe head injuries. And also found marks of physical torture on his body. Police said the fatal blow might have been caused by Ziauddin dropping the boy when he cut him down from the fan.

According to the boy's father the teacher had previously smashed him over the head with an iron rod cutting him so badly that he needed stitches. We got the boy treated and wanted to pull him out of the madrasa.

But we decided to readmit him after the teacher said he would show some mercy to the boy. Muhammad's father Fayyaz Ahmed 35 said we really did not expect him to go so far after he reassured us. Muhammad was sent to the school eight months ago in the hope that he would become a Hafiz a Quran a scholar who wins great respect by memorizing the whole of the Quran.

We kept pushing him to go because we wanted him to become a religious scholar sobbed his mother Gulzar Bibi 28. We thought he was making the stories up like kids usually do to avoid going to school. We thought he would be the key to our Emancipation on the day of the judgment she added.

The killing has sparked concerns for the welfare of the 1 .5 million students in the country's 13 ,000 madrasas which are regarded as potential recruiting grounds for al-qaeda and the Taliban. In 2002 president pervez Musharraf Responded to international concerns by ordering madrasas to adopt a more modern curriculum.

But religious hardliners have stymied many of the reforms and their refusal to allow state regulation. Has also seen the schools develop a reputation for child abuse. While officialdom often turns a blind eye the sheer brutality of the latest cases led the new prime minister Yusuf Razi Galani to order an inquiry.

Police said the other children who attended the Kari Latif madrasa in Vihari 150 miles southwest of Lahore have all been withdrawn. Investigators said Zayuddin had admitted the assault and claimed such brutality was normal.

Quote. We punish students who don't learn their lessons and quote he told detectives quote. We used to get similar beatings when we were studying in the same schools. It is not uncommon and quote and Obviously, there's all sorts of things here about Memorizing the Quran and the madrasas and yes, this is where most of your Taliban fighters come from and your al-qaeda suicide bombers and in all the rest of this this type of stuff and and there's certainly a tremendous amount to be said concerning the just obvious brainwashing and the brutality of this kind of stuff and all of that.

But I hope what you really heard as I as I read that is. Here you've got a a child who's been blind from birth. So he's he's not going to get himself much of a good job. See and So they think well, hey he can memorize the Quran and he'll get great respect by memorizing the whole of the Quran and.

And Then you hear his mother Say we thought he would be the key to our emancipation on the day of the judgment. That's what you know, all the rest of it is a is a horrific thing and how people like this You know can behave the way they behave and so on so forth.

Yes. But then you have this statement we thought he would be the key to our emancipation on the day of the judgment and so much of this kind of material so much of the things you read about suicide bombers and you you read about the people up in Glasgow who tried to blow up the car at the airport there and.

You read about these the Palestinians who were going into Israel before they they closed the borders and blowing themselves up in in restaurants and things like that. These were not just down-and-outers.

The common thread for all of them is that they were looking for some certain kind of redemption some type of certainty and It all goes back to the fact that there is no mediator there is no one in Islam that can provide that kind of direct relationship with God.

Islam is fatally flawed at its core. Yes, it is monotheistic. Congratulations, that's good. Then again, the demons are monotheistic to according to Book of Mormon James they know there's only one true to God as well.

Monotheism is absolutely true but monotheism without a personal revelation from God and without a demonstration of his intention to demonstrate and show mercy. It can be absolutely cruel. Absolutely positively cruel.

To convince someone that there is one true God. We see this in the world around us, but then to rob us of. What that God has done? To reveal himself and to reveal his mercy and His love and his redemption is what makes Islam the evil thing that it is.

And by the way No matter how true that is. You pretty much can't say it in most Western countries anymore not without getting yourself sued or Stuck in the who. Scout we have another article which I found particularly interesting because it cites The an individual that I have had a contact with before haven't had contact in a number of years.

Used to come into our chat channel actually. This is from worldnetdaily. Priest investigated for quoting Bible targeted at a human rights law where no defendant ever cleared. This is June 5th 2008 which is about as Up today as you can get.

I guess a Priest is being investigated as a potential criminal under a federal hate crimes law for quoting from the Bible. And he's being targeted using a Canadian provision under which no defendant ever has been acquitted according to a new report.

Pete Varay, that's the gentleman. I don't remember what he used to come into channel as he's Roman Catholic. Well, it's just as varay. That's right. He came in as varay a canon lawyer and Catholic journalist has reported on the prosecution of Father Alfonso de Volk a Pro-life activist known across Canada by the Canadian Human Rights Commission a quasi judicial investigative body with the power of the Canadian government behind it at catholicexchange .com.

What was father de Volk's alleged hate act varay wrote? Father defended the Catholic Church's teaching on marriage during Canada's same-sex marriage debate. Quoting extensively from the Bible the Catechism of Catholic Church and Pope John Paul II encyclicals.

Each of these documents contains official Catholic teaching and like millions of other people throughout the world and the ages many of whom are non Catholics and non-christians the father believes that marriage is an exclusive union between a man and a woman he wrote.

The new case comes just as columnist and author Mark Stein and McLean's magazine Which published an excerpt from his America alone book are on trial before the British Columbia Human Rights Tribunal for similar similar offenses.

We know under the Supreme Court of Canada and under tribunals of this country that there are reasonable limits to freedom of expression. Faisal Joseph a lawyer for the plaintiffs in the Stein dispute said in a life site.

News .com report that case revolves around Joseph's claims the defendants depicted Muslims as a violent people with a religion that is violent. So I know we all are thinking back to 1984 and It just came about 25 years late, but it's here 1984 has arrived and These people are in charge.

They're in charge and So I can read one article on the Islamic mullah hanging blind boys from ceiling fans and beating him to death. But we cannot call that violence. Because that's a hate crime now, you see it's thoughts.

It's it's it's what was it? What was the term in 1984? It's been about that. I read it before 1984. Thought it wasn't just thought crime there was a certain way you were supposed to Acknowledge that something was the way that it was but that it wasn't the way that was.

I forget what the exact terminology of it was but that's that's what we are doing now words no longer have meanings and You know truth is no longer a defense. Truth is irrelevant doesn't really truth speak.

Is that what it was? Truth thought crimes truth speak. I'm getting various and sundries truth speak sounds somewhat interesting interesting, but I forget what it was. But anyways in the new case Various and sundry.

Yes. That's that's all is very it was it was various and sundry. Thanks. That's that's the best way to do. In the new case for a raised the question that Canada now considers morality a Hate crime if one because of one's searly held sincerely held moral beliefs, whether it be Jew Muslim Christian Catholic Opposes the idea of same-sex marriage in Canada.

Is that considered hate he asked? New speak new speak. Shamgar says new speak whatever. Very wrote that the response he got from Mark Van Dusen a spokesman for the federal Human Rights Prosecution Office shocked him.

Quote we investigate complaints and quote very reported. Van Dusen told him quote. We don't set public policy or moral standards. We investigate complaints based on the circumstances and the details outlined in the complaint and If upon investigation deemed that there is sufficient evidence Then we may forward the complaint to the tribunal.

But the hate is defined in the Human Rights Act under section 13 -1. Our job is to look at it. Compare it to the act to accumulate case law tribunal and court decisions that have reflected on hate and decide whether to advance the complaint.

Dismiss it or well, there is room for a settlement between parties. Van Dusen told very. What is shocking about that very notice is the admission that unjustified complaints can be dismissed yet. The case against the Volk has continued now for more than six months.

Six months, it's been going on. Let's see here. Oh, there is more here. In other words individual Jews Muslims Catholics and other Christians who for reasons of conscience hold their faith traditional teaching concerning marriage could very well Be guilty of promoting hate in Canada.

The same is true of any faith community in Canada that does not embrace this modern Redefinition of one of the world's oldest institutions a redefinition that even the highly secularist France rejects.

Very wrote. Divalka publishes the Catholic Insight magazine that bases itself on the church's teachings and applies it to various circumstances in our time is accused by homosexual notice a homosexual one person a homosexual of promoting extreme hatred and contempt against homosexuals.

Very said. However, the priest is simply following the teachings of the Bible and examples of Pope's John Paul II Benedict's the This says 15th. I bet it's supposed to be 16. By stating that Christians must love homosexuals and treat them with dignity due to humans.

Besides the complaints against the priest and Stein other cases already have substantiated the Canadian precedent that Christian beliefs can be evidence for convictions. In 2005 the Knights of Columbus Council was fined more than $1 ,000 for refusing to allow its facility to be used for a lesbian quote Wedding end quote.

And before that printer Scott Brockie was fined $5 ,000 for declining to print homosexual themed stationery. Also in Saskatchewan Hugh Owens was fined thousands of dollars for quoting Bible verses in a newspaper and London, Ontario mayor Diane Haskett was fined $10 ,000 for refusing to proclaim a homosexual pride day.

Bishop Fred Henry has described the situation as a new form of censorship and thought control. Those are the same words leading Christians in the United States. Leading Christians in the United States have used to describe the most recent hate crimes plan before the US Congress.

Which specifically targeted for elimination criticism of alternative sexual? lifestyles. For I also warned that's in the Stein case. The bottom line is that a Canadian human rights tribunal now is attempting to prosecute a case against an American resident based upon what an American citizen Allegedly posted to a mainstream American Catholic website.

You hearing this folks. What passes for mainstream Catholic discussion in America is now the basis for a hate complaint in Canada that's scary if that's not just thrown out then. Check the check the the the Constitution and ask yourself a question.

Do we have anybody running right now? Who would stand against that with VIM vigor and vitality? I can guarantee you one person running right now would love it. I don't know what the other one would do.

All I know is I don't think there's anybody who would be defending us very much at this particular point. I've been waiting for Canada to reach over the border and you know, you say it here on this program.

It's on the Internet if you put a set foot in Canada. Oh, yeah, I know you're under arrest. Yep. Well, I don't. I'll be perfectly honest. I don't like going to Canada. Because they don't have freedom of speech there anymore.

It's just a fact and You can start adding other places to it. I was supposed to be in Australia next year and and you know, you think about it. I hope to get back out again and We can start adding states to that.

California's moving there you're literally gonna have a limitation as to where you can go to speak the truth in the not-too-distant future and Just as various Muslim countries have turned YouTube off.

Remember when Pakistan blew up all of YouTube for a few hours while back because it they didn't do it, right. And I think in Indonesia, they've done the same thing blocking YouTube. Normally they're doing it for political reasons but this kind of censorship is coming and You know, are we gonna start, you know doing what?

Some people do and finding pirate ways of broadcasting. I bet you it's coming down the road. But the United States is not immune to such work either. He noted saying the New Mexico photographer fined $6 ,600 for refusing to meet the demands of a lesbian to take pictures at a quote wedding in quote.

Also, California has set in state law a ban on introducing anything but positive information about alternative sexual lifestyles including homosexuality in its public schools isn't that sweet and We're on that daily reported just days earlier when a verbal spat between two men on a street in Champaign, Illinois Left the self-proclaimed homosexual facing no charges and the other an 18 year old Christian student facing felony hate crime counts.

See you can only be a hate crime only goes one direction because if if there was any logic or Rationality left in the legal system and the the fact that it's being sucked out as a judgment from God, by the way if there was a left Then the case could be very strongly made that Homosexuals are guilty of hate crimes because of the hate they engender toward the Christian faith and In fact, you'd probably have to bring up a bunch of the judges themselves on such hate crimes legislation.

But it only goes one way. That that's that's the whole point of the hate crimes legislation is it only goes one direction it is forbidding Christians from doing something it's not forbidding the homosexuals or homosexuals can express all the hate they want.

It's up to the judge to get to define what hate is. That's why hate crimes are not laws. You can't call them laws. Because they require someone to read someone else's heart, which you cannot do. That's what's so dangerous about them.

That's what's so absurd about them. That's what so it's anti-american anti-constitutional. There's nobody who ever drafted signed on to the Constitution United States. It would ever support such idiocy and yet it's all-around us all around us.

Raised warnings were followed by one from Grace Harwin Harman. I'm sorry who noted on the website's forum It would appear that Canadian law is discriminating against people on the basis their religious faith or perhaps discriminating against God himself who gave us the laws and nature and purpose of life, etc, etc, very.

If I was looking for this stuff, it would be easy to find new examples of it every single day. And I know it's it's so much easier to just turn this stuff off and go. Well, you know, it's not gonna affect me.

It's That I I know for years people have maybe it's one of the reasons that some people look at me and they go man He's really weird or he's too radical. It's like that. I have been trying to say for years That this was coming and that you know, I'm talking to myself I'm gonna have to make that kind of decision just like everybody else is gonna have to make that kind of decision.

There's gonna you know that and and here's how the here's how it would be stated. It'd be something along the lines of will look. What's more important that you continue to be able to? Positively teach Aspects of God's truth while just choosing to be quiet about aspects of God's truth.

See that's the road that they went down in England and that's why the Anglican Church in England is basically dead and Even then is basically being outlawed as well. You know the temptation is going to be very strong to say well, you know, does this not rock the boat and That's how In reference to Islam Christians become dhimmis.

They live in dimitude here a secular society to its own self-destruction. Secularism can only be self-destructive and There's a theological reason for that secularism can only be self-destructive. Why?

Anybody who knows their Bible even slightly here knows the answer to this question why is secular why is a secular governmental and I'm what I'm talking about here is I'm talking about and putting into law man's rules.

Hardly want to call a law because it has no transcendent basis. But putting into you know, what Canada is doing here setting up this hate crimes Commission. Why does that always become self-destructive of nation?

Well, obviously anybody who knows their Bible knows that there is no neutral person. You are either suppressing the knowledge of God or you're embracing it so here are people who are pretending to be neutral who are not neutral who are God haters and Now they are given the power to allegedly read the very mind of man you want to talk about a setup for abuse a Setup for corruption.

Wow, there it is all around us and So these these governments and we see it happening in Europe. We sit we sit back and we look at Europe and now we look at ourselves. We go. Why can't these nations defend themselves?

What why are these nations promoting the people and movements within their borders? That that are destroying these nations that will lead to the overthrow of their forms of government and their cultures and everything else.

Well, because once you become once you once you embrace this rejection of God and and it becomes self-destructive and We sit back and watch this go. I'll never happen here baloney. It seems absolutely inevitable unless there is a revival and And folks you were not going to stop this through political means it's gonna have to involve the change of hearts.

The the political system is corrupt. It's the heart that has to be changed and It's coming. I don't. You know, you you may listen to this program and many people comment about how they enjoy the program.

We enjoy doing it. I Don't know how long we're gonna be able to do this and I'm not talking about, you know, the economics of things either though. What reminds you that we are a listener supported program?

They listen to support ministry as you spend more and more and more to fill up your gas tank. You know and I I'm feeling that too by the way just an aside here I feel that too but honestly in Comparison to what people have been spending on all sorts of other stuff.

Percentage wise it's still pretty small. It's still a small percentage of stuff. And I think what we don't like about is it? Well, that's my funny money that I'm having to spend. Oh, yeah, you're right.

It's your funny money. Okay, so that was much funny money. All right. Well, I Really think that Christians as a group are gonna have to really reorganize their priorities. As we become more and more the focus of the the hatred of the world and it's not the first time this has happened.

Read some church history. Yeah, it's it's all there. But anyway Just just to keep you, you know, keep that in front of you. We do not have We do not have a bunch of big donors out there who are just Funneling in the big money.

It doesn't work that way. I've managed to offend every religious group upon the face of the planet and so We we you are the folks that keep us keep us going by the way just in passing gonna be in the Atlanta area this weekend I'm 94 certain that I posted this on the blog didn't I I think I did I have this vague recollection doing so Look up a lathe a forum.

On Google, you should be able to find it there, but I'm speaking Saturday night I believe it's in Duluth, Georgia on Islam and the next morning I'm preaching and I'm pretty certain I put on the blog, but I should have brought that up.

I apologize. But it's that's that's what I'm doing and I'll be out that direction. And by the way next week or it almost sounded to me like we're gonna have like flip-flop the times. Is that pretty much what we're looking at doing there?

I don't know what the Something right now. It's really not fair to try to talk while you're eating. Okay, but you ask you get to eat. I don't get to eat during the program. You have to talk. I'll tell you why don't you talk to you mom?

So I said how's that may be doing like a Monday Wednesday dividing line? I thought I thought it almost sounded me like if we did the Tuesday one at the Thursday time and the Thursday one the Tuesday time that would work.

No, oh no, or we may be doing a Wednesday dividing line, there's these Thursdays really out Thursday is Thursday is bad. It's out altogether. Okay, Thursday's bad. And Friday isn't possible. Oh, so At this point in time. I'm looking at Monday Wednesday, or maybe Tuesday Wednesday, but Thursday's right out Thursday.

It's right out. Okay, great. All right, well since I don't get back until late Sunday Mondays are generally not overly enjoyable and catching up with stuff. So I guess we'll just have to put it on the on on the blog and figure it out from there.

Well, we have a number of phone calls, but I also had some stuff to play here. So we will have to See if we can squeeze all this together real quick. We'll skip the break and I'll just do this one. Then we'll go to our phone calls.

James Swan sent me some more Tim Staples. And again, we can now cut Tim more slack on what he's gonna be doing here because he's talking about until at Matthew 1 25. But we can now cut him more slack because before when he was one of the foremost biblical scholars in the church.

This would have been really bad because What he demonstrates in this clip Is that he has not even? Attempted to begin to interact with What Eric Svensson has written on the subject of the phrase he owes who at Matthew 1 25?

And when you're one of the foremost biblical scholars in the Catholic Church to not have even read his material or even even shown an understanding of What he has said about it, that would be really really bad, but as we mentioned on the last program Tim has received a demotion and he is no longer one of the foremost biblical scholars in the Catholic Church.

He is now however He is one of the top apologists and I would argue that if you're going to be one of the top apologist You should still show some familiarity with some understanding of the argumentation that the other side is presenting but as we have documented so many times that is not a part of How most Roman Catholic apologists think they do not feel the same urgency that people on our side of the issues feel of Responding to the best the other side has to say see it has has to present so a fellow calls in he's asking about Matthew 1 25 and The issue if you have not heard it before it has come up a number of times Matthew 1 25 but he kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a son and he called his name Jesus until She gave birth to a son.

He did not know her. He kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a son and For many years I met They they they do miss Gerrymantics, there's no question that the modern Roman Catholic apologists the apologetics movement misses gerrymantics because nobody a Jerry could have done.

This is a four minute and 30 second clip. Jerry could have done this in 37 point four seconds without ever breathing. He could have covered every reference the Tim Staples covers without ever breathing and he could have done it in 37 and a half seconds.

And so they miss him and I remember the first time I heard Jerry talking about this very thing I've heard Keating talking about it and and well, they all they all make the same presentation. That is look the word until doesn't necessarily mean that anything changed and they'll go to Saul's wife and they'll they'll go to this example or that example and as Eric Stenson pointed out They all Focus upon one word house.

He doesn't quite say it correctly in this clip. But again, if he was one of the foremost biblical scholars still that would be bad, but he's not he's now he's an apologist. He can he can say it anyway.

He wants to but They never look at it as a phrase. It's not just house is house who? It is a phrase when you when you take a word out of a phrase Instead of looking at the phrase itself, that's that's a problem and You're what you're gonna hear is Tim Staples Giving different examples and he's gonna give the example for example, first Corinthians 1525 the problem is The term house doesn't appear that was who does not appear in first Corinthians 1525.

He's using the English word until as his basis here, which again Even for a top of polish is be unforgivable for one of the foremost biblical scholars in the Catholic Church. But even for a top apologist you're left going.

Come on Tim. This is really lame. I mean if you've actually Taken the time to read some stuff to listen. Maybe listen even listen to the debate that I did with Jerry on this very issue up in Salt Lake City.

If they if they were doing that level of preparation, which you would expect for the top apologists of the church, then you'd expect a significantly tighter more informed a more compelling presentation.

But that's that's that's not what we get. So let's Let's let's listen to this clip of Here's one of the top apologists of the Catholic Church on Matthew 125 Question is that I've had several.

Buggies process so forth kind of go with the one scripture here on Matthew chapter 1 verse 25. We're yes. They claimed that Mary had other children in the course it point out to that one scripture one verse there.

We said he had no relationship with her until He pours her son, right? It's Christ. How would you defend that? I know there's a way of course the word until means other things as well to believe, right?

Well Arthur, here's the key. You're you're right that word until is important. And and what it says is Joseph knew not Mary until she brought forth her firstborn Son, and there's generally two errors that are made here.

You know, some people will say well if it's if Jesus is called the firstborn well, wouldn't that mean there's a second born? And as you probably know That's not true. The firstborn was consecrated as the firstborn from the from the time that it or.

Whether it's an animal or a human being you see in Exodus chapter 13 verses 1 and 2 for example Consecrate the firstborn that opens the womb so you didn't have to wait until there was a second born by the way.

That's perfectly correct. There's the the firstborn approach though again. Serious Protestant apologists wouldn't be using that the firstborn approach is Invalid. And see by the way, if you were a meaningful apologist Who defends for example the deity of Christ against Jehovah's Witnesses.

You'd already know what prototocos means and you would know that would be an improper application of that particular term. So this isn't an argument that a top Protestant apologist would use. There are no such things as tau Protestant.

Yes, you need to see. Yeah, I I just don't know how many times we have to go over this. There is no such thing as a top Protestant apologist. There is a such thing as a foremost biblical scholar in the Protestant world.

You'd say you're thinking all wrong. There are only foremost Catholic biblical scholars and there are only foremost Catholic apologists.

I mean, that's simple. I mean, let's until you could call the firstborn the firstborn. So that's the first error. That's often made now here the word until there's a couple of things you want to take a look at.

One is that the word until their chaos in Greek. Not. Not only do you have it used in a sort of idiomatic way in Greek, but we we do the same thing in English. I might say to Jerry Jerry Until we meet again, God bless you.

Now. Does that mean after we meet again?

God curse you. Look if you if this is bothering you some just remember. This is really a full step above the bloop time bubble that we heard from Steve. This is come on face it this is a cut above let's you know.

Well, of course not. The until we meet again does not necessarily imply the opposite to be true after the until is Fulfilled. It's an idiomatic expression and here's a couple of good examples of what I'm talking about biblically in for in 1st Corinthians chapter 15 verse 25 The Bible says Christ must reign Until God has placed all enemies under his feet, which is the Greek term Akri which has.

Semantically may be similar to but wouldn't it be wouldn't be best. Maybe to use actual parallels like hell's who. That would I think I'd be best. I think it's a good idea now. Does that mean.

After God has placed all enemies under his feet that Christ is not going to reign any longer. Well of course not because Luke chapter 1 verse 33 for example says of His kingdom or of his reign there shall be no end.

In other words He will reign forever and ever. The until is simply an idiomatic expression. That's Emphasizing something. It's emphasizing the fact that Christ. Or that or that God will place all things under Christ's feet.

Now if you go to the Old Testament. Here's another great example of this. In 2nd Samuel chapter 6 you discover that King David's wife Mekal Was condemned by God because if you remember she danced before the ark of the or David danced before the ark of the Covenant and Mekal Despised David in her heart because of what he was doing and the Bible says God cursed her as a result because David was doing God's will in the matter.

And the Bible says as a punishment that she had no more children until the day of her death. Now do we really want to believe that she had children after she died? Well of course not. Once again, we have that idiomatic expression used here in the same way in Matthew chapter 1 verse 25 Joseph knew her not until she brought forth her firstborn.

Similar to how in 1st Corinthians 15. There's an emphasis being placed on what would occur. You know concerning God putting all enemies under Christ's feet in the case of 1st Corinthians 15 25 or in 2nd Samuel 6 That she would have no children.

That term until is used. Never intending for anyone to believe that the opposite would be fulfilled after the until is fulfilled. Well the same thing is here in Matthew chapter 1 verse 25 the Emphasis is on the fact that Joseph did not know Mary.

That is what is being emphasized. The miraculous nature of the birth of our Lord. There is nothing said here nor is there in you know Intended to be anything said about what would happen after Jesus was born.

Does that help at all? Yeah, it sure does.

Yeah, I can just imagine that fellow repeating that argumentation. I Love love does that help? I mean I can tell when what I've said to somebody was of no help to them whatsoever, and I normally admit it.

Do you notice that? What was said there, you know, hopefully One of the reasons this kind of stuff gets people as far as it gets them is because in our day there is a Real lack of training in logic and in argumentation.

I mean, it's considered to be, you know Politically incorrect to to think through things and to recognize bad argumentation and things like that. And so what you have here Is you you have someone saying well look?

Different original language words in other contexts that have nothing to do with this one mean X. Therefore this does not mean Y in this text. That's what you just heard. It doesn't have to mean that.

Over here something similar doesn't mean that so that's why it doesn't mean that here. Instead of starting with the real obvious stuff like well Why bother to say this if what is actually being said is there was no normal marital relationships ever ever between Joseph and Mary.

Which of course is exactly what they're saying it's exactly what the Roman Catholic position is is that there that there was an unnatural marriage here a Marriage that we've never really seen before and it doesn't there's no biblical discussion of this kind of marriage where there's just you know Celibacy in essence a protectorate, etc, etc.

When you listen to the arguments these people bring up to try to substantiate these things. It's astounding but Nothing was just given to that even comes close to substantiate substantiate substantiate that kind of assertion nothing.

But because there was verbiage and there was references off the top of the head and there was an assertion about the meaning of this Assertion the meaning of that most people go. Yeah, it's one of those religious things.