January 25, 2017 Show with Conrad Mbewe on “Foundations For the Flock: Truths About the Church For All Saints”

Iron Sharpens Iron

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:02

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

00:08

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

00:16

Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

00:23

Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

00:31

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

00:46

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

00:57

Now here's our host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

01:05

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming.

01:12

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 25th day of January 2017.

01:23

I am so delighted to have back on the program Dr. Conrad M. Bayway, author, conference speaker, principal of Lusaka Ministerial College, chancellor of the

01:35

African Christian University, head of the African Renaissance University project of the

01:40

African Alliance of YMCA's, board member of Central Africa Baptist College and Covenant College in Zambia, pastor of Coboata Baptist Church, and dear friend of mine,

01:53

Dr. Conrad M. Bayway, who is going to be addressing today his book, Foundations for the

02:00

Flock, Truths About the Church for All the Saints. And welcome back to Iron Sharpens Iron, my friend

02:06

Dr. Conrad M. Bayway. Thank you. Thank you, Chris. I'm glad to be back with you on this occasion.

02:13

And I can tell you, as many of you heard me yesterday raving about what a blessed time

02:20

I had at the G3 conference in Atlanta, the way I was overwhelmed by God's grace and encouragement through all the brethren

02:32

I met there who listened to Iron Sharpens Iron radio from all of the United States and even some from the

02:38

UK, some who also have listened to my show going all the way back to the old days in New York, starting in 2006, and some who have followed the debates, the live public theological debates that I've arranged with Dr.

02:52

James R. White, going all the way back to 1996. The only drawback, the only thing that really let me down during that whole week in Atlanta, Georgia, was the fact that I did not have the opportunity to interview

03:05

Dr. Conrad M. Bayway face -to -face for the first time. I was looking forward to that.

03:11

I was actually only two booths away from you when you were being interviewed by somebody else, Conrad, and I kept looking over, looking over to see if you were still there because I wanted to jump on the chance to interview you immediately after, and then something distracted my attention and I looked over and you were gone.

03:31

But I figured, you know, it was probably providential anyway because I assumed that you were probably by that time of day exhausted, and it's probably better that the

03:41

Lord just providentially opened up this opportunity today for us to have a more lengthy discussion.

03:48

And I'm going to let our listeners know right off the bat what our email address is if they'd like to join us on the air with a question.

03:58

It's chrisarnson at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com,

04:06

and please include at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

04:12

USA. And before I even go into our main topic,

04:18

Foundations for the Flock, Truths about the Church for All the Saints, I want to know something about you,

04:24

Conrad. We've had you mention this before on the program, but we have new listeners all the time, it seems.

04:30

Every week, it seems, I have new listeners to Iron Sharpens Iron. So I'd like our listeners to know something about your own childhood, the religion of your family, if any, and how the

04:41

Lord providentially drew you to Himself and saved you, and then subsequently how you came to embrace the doctrines of Sovereign Grace, also known as Reformed Theology.

04:52

Thank you. Well, I grew up in Zambia. My parents were already church -going to what is called in Zambia the

05:03

United Church of Zambia. And my mom died when

05:10

I was nine years old. I was then fostered together with my two sisters by her immediate elder sister.

05:18

But they were still going to the same church, and consequently we continued in that sense attending the place of worship.

05:27

It wasn't until 1978 when my elder sister got converted that I consequently saw it changed life, what it meant to not simply be church -going but regenerate, converted to Christ with a transformed heart.

05:53

And that challenged me in terms of my own relationship with God.

05:59

So for the next three months going into the year 1979, I was actually seeking.

06:06

And with every succeeding month, it was getting clearer to me that whatever it was my sister had,

06:14

I didn't have. And so that intensified the search until around April, May, rather March, April 1979,

06:26

I then read a tract that was pointing me to Christ.

06:32

The previous December, a friend of mine had written a letter in which he challenged me concerning faith in Christ.

06:41

So those two things, my sister's testimony and that letter, finally resulted in me seeking

06:51

Christ for salvation. And so by the time I was going into May of 1979,

07:01

I had become a Christian in the biblical sense of the word.

07:07

My elder sister's conversion took place at a local Baptist church. And so invariably,

07:14

I then joined her at that church. I found a new pastor.

07:20

He had just taken over a series in the book of Romans. And he, when he took it over, he was in chapter five.

07:29

And for the next two to three years, made his way to chapter eight. And it was really during that period that my own faith was challenged.

07:42

It was built up. And I came to an appreciation of the

07:47

Reformed faith. You can as well imagine making your way through Romans five, six, seven, and eight.

07:59

I mean, that's real solid. You can't find it any better anywhere on the planet.

08:08

And then he was also often quoting Banner of Truth books. And so being a university student in those days, together with my friends, we would sort of read up ahead of time the section that you'd be preaching on over the weekend.

08:28

And that opened us further to an appreciation of the

08:33

Reformed faith as it had been expounded by the

08:38

Reformers, by the Puritans, by the great preachers of the evangelical awakening, and so forth, all the way to Martyn Lloyd -Jones and Charles Adams Spurgeon.

08:51

Yeah, so that's how I came to the Reformed faith. Praise God. Well, how did you know that God had put a call upon your life to become a gospel minister?

09:03

Well, you know, looking back now, it was just a strange situation.

09:11

About a year into my Christian life, I found that whenever I was, at least on a number of occasions when

09:18

I was praying alone in my closet, I would really be burdened about lost souls and about preaching to them.

09:30

Now, it troubled me because I was sort of visualizing myself in the pulpit, and I'm hardly a year in the

09:36

Christian faith. So I was assuming that I am, what's the word,

09:42

I am just envying my pastor. So this thing wasn't going away, this burden, if I were to call it that.

09:51

So that's how I finally sought the counsel of an older Christian who basically said to me, it's one thing to know if God is calling you, it's quite another to know when

10:10

He's opening the door. So if it's the Lord calling you, you simply trust in Him and wait on Him to open the door.

10:21

So I became fairly involved in Christian service because I was told as He opens various doors, you go ahead and serve

10:30

Him. So that's how I began to do that. And by and by, seven years later, the door opened for me to go into ministry at Kobwata Baptist Church.

10:47

So was Kobwata Baptist Church an existing congregation, or was it something that you started as a church plant, or how did that come about?

10:57

What happened was that while I was a student at the University of Zambia, the church

11:05

I was attending then, Lusaka Baptist Church, decided that they were going to proceed to start

11:15

Kobwata Baptist Church. And so what they did was they asked a number of individuals who were interested to commit to become a team that would establish the church.

11:28

So I was one of those who committed myself to this project until I graduated from the university, which was three years later, and then went to work in the mines in another town.

11:44

So during my period of absence, the church was then formally weaned off.

11:52

It was constituted. And they began to look for a pastor, and my name was given to them.

11:59

That's how they then called me. So I was with the church plant from the beginning, except for a three -year gap, when

12:08

I then went to work in the mines. Then I came back and became the pastor in 1987.

12:16

Well, praise God. And tell us something about also

12:21

Lusaka Ministerial College and the African Christian University. Well, first of all, with the

12:29

Lusaka Ministerial College, it's evolved over time. I think it's been in existence for at least 20 years.

12:36

It began as simply a preacher's class in my own church, and then two other churches asked that we join hands so that it becomes a joint project.

12:48

And so that's how it moved from simply being a preacher's class to being called the

12:55

Reformed Baptist Preachers College. It ran like that for some time until an

13:02

American missionary asked to come over to Zambia and manage it on our behalf.

13:08

So we agreed, and when he came over, he then changed its name to Lusaka Ministerial College.

13:17

And then after two years, he resigned, and consequently it fell back again into our laps.

13:25

But this time, it then became a ministry of Kabwatha Baptist Church instead of a joint project with other churches.

13:35

And that's what it has been since then. And we've been training pastors primarily within Lusaka itself, as the name says.

13:46

And basically the students come in on Wednesdays, on Fridays, as we have the same team.

13:54

And then on Saturday, we have a completely different category of students, usually those who work elsewhere during the week.

14:08

And that's what I would say about that. And then the African Christian University is a project that we began in the year 2008.

14:19

Within Lusaka as well, it's a joint project between quite a number of our churches, the

14:25

Reformed Baptist Churches in Zambia. And after approximately eight years of background work, five years involved getting everything into place, then the next three years involved trying to get license from the government, and finally last year we opened doors and we had our first year students.

14:53

This year we're now having both first and second year. We're just starting. It's a mammoth project.

15:00

We're currently looking for land where we should induce it on building the campus.

15:08

But we have started. It's based on a biblical worldview that looks at all the courses in terms of their careers from a biblical perspective, including theology itself.

15:29

So we're currently with education, agriculture, business, and theology.

15:37

Now, I've noticed that quite a number of prominent preachers from the

15:43

U .S. who are from Reformed and Reformed Baptist backgrounds have been traveling overseas to be in some way in cooperation with you and the

15:55

African Christian University. Yes, yes. No, we're definitely very grateful to God for that.

16:01

It's, you know, the kind of work that we have undertaken cannot be accomplished by ourselves.

16:11

We've needed all the help that we possibly could get. I mean, just the conditions that were given by the

16:18

Zeman government to begin this institution demanded a lot of faith.

16:24

For instance, they wanted us to obtain letters of endorsement from universities that were already in existence.

16:35

And so I'm very grateful for the Masters University under the leadership of John MacArthur and the

16:45

Bethlehem College under the leadership of John Piper. Both of them endorsed our college at a critical time when, you know, there was nothing on the ground and we needed people to believe in us that what we're doing is credible.

17:02

And these two great servants of God gave us the needed endorsement.

17:09

Then we've had individuals like Vody Bokum who has quit his ministry.

17:16

This is job here in the U .S. and moved over to become the dean of our seminary.

17:24

And so that's been something we're very grateful to God for because it is showing that God is moving many hearts to join hands with us.

17:37

Of course, the main challenge now has to do with more faculty to come over to the

17:43

U .S., I mean to Zambia, who are self -sponsored and then also funding to put up the main campus.

17:55

How is Vody Bokum and his family adjusting to the, I'm sure, quite a stark contrast of living from being in the

18:05

United States over there in Zambia, Africa? Yeah, well, obviously it's quite a challenge.

18:12

I mean, it speaks of their commitment to the greater kingdom challenge and kingdom demands.

18:23

It can be easy malaria and mosquitoes. You have power cuts.

18:33

You have water outages, water drying up.

18:41

You have a lot more thefts, petty thefts than you normally get here in terms of in your homes, all kinds of illnesses.

18:54

So it's not easy. They've come with seven kids that they have adopted.

19:01

They're all very young and just managing them in a place where you don't have all the comforts that you normally have here in the

19:10

U .S. I mean, God bless that brother and his wife for taking on such a challenge when they could quite easily have been enjoying something of the comforts of American life.

19:25

Amen. I had the privilege of hearing Vody Bokum for the first time preach.

19:32

That is in a live public setting in a church not long ago in New Jersey when he was speaking at a conference and I was totally blown away with the power and the gift that he has, the command that he has of the scriptures and was thoroughly edified and blessed not only by hearing him preach and teach but also meeting him personally.

19:58

Let's also mention the Central Africa Baptist College and Covenant College of Zambia.

20:08

Yeah. As you'll notice, I'm involved in quite a number of other institutions that are developing preachers.

20:19

The reason is quite simple. It's the fact that in Zambia, to try and get people to leave their location and come and dwell within a specific town and then pay for their theological education would very much limit the number of people that you would train.

20:40

And yet, because Christianity is galloping forward, we really need to have as many methods and institutions in which we can train pastors.

20:54

So, CABC, which is the Central Africa Baptist College, is situated in what we call the

21:01

Copper Belt, and it's probably the most developed of all the colleges that I'm involved in thus far.

21:10

And it offers not only a bachelor's degree but also a master's through Piedmont University here in the

21:21

USA. And yeah, it's a great work that's taking place under the

21:27

President Phil Hunt, who is a missionary under the

21:33

International Baptist Mission here in the U .S., doing a sterling job.

21:40

And anyone having a bit of time can check it out using

21:45

Google Central Africa Baptist College. Then Covenant College is a smaller college out on the eastern part of Zambia, in the rural part of Zambia.

21:59

It basically trains pastors with basic education, probably just finished primary school, but they are out in the village, in the rural areas.

22:12

They do basic subsistence farming. So they come in on Tuesday and train.

22:22

Then Tuesday itself, Wednesday, Thursday, and then

22:27

Friday after lunch, they cycle back into the villages where they then proceed with their pastoral work and also a little bit more of their subsistence farming.

22:40

So it's at a very basic level, and yet it's a decisive work in the eastern part of the country.

22:48

There isn't any other college that is strategically placed in developing evangelical pastors as the

22:59

Covenant College. It's under a Zambian, Emmanuel Sakala. He is the new principal.

23:05

In fact, he only began at the beginning of this month. And last but not least, we can't forget about the

23:12

African Renaissance University project of the African Alliance of YMCAs.

23:17

Why don't you tell us about that? Yes, I'm involved with the YMCA. The YMCA in Africa is a little different from the

23:25

YMCA here in the U .S., in that here the YMCA seems to major in gyms, whereas in Africa, the

23:35

YMCA majors in vocational training, providing the many youth that go out of school but are unable to find themselves in the few universities that we have in Africa.

23:51

So they tend to provide them with basic courses in accounts, basic courses in carpentry, metro work, preschool teaching, et cetera, et cetera, so at that level.

24:03

Now, I've been involved not only in Zambia but also at African level to then develop a university with three campuses, one in Togo, one campus in Kenya, and the third campus in Zimbabwe.

24:22

And right now as I speak, the Togo campus has opened, and we are just about to open the one in Nairobi, and then we're struggling quite a bit with Zimbabwe.

24:38

But that's the project I've been involved in, and I've been asked to chair it primarily because of my experience as Chancellor of the

24:47

African Christian University. And some people might be wondering if you are in Zambia, Africa, why you have repeatedly used the phrase over here in the

24:58

U .S. during this conversation. That's because Dr. Conrad Mbewe is still here in the

25:04

U .S. after having preached at the G3 conference, and that was one of the, certainly as far as I'm concerned, one of the great highlights of that conference is to hear my brother preach again.

25:19

And I don't want to swell his head, but he is truly one of the most, if not the most, powerful preachers of the gospel

25:27

I have ever heard in my life, and I relish every opportunity to hear him and see him preach the gospel.

25:36

And it just so happens that providentially he will be at Grace Baptist Church of Canton, Michigan this

25:43

Sunday, January 29th at 9 45 a .m. 11 a .m.

25:49

and 6 p .m. And if you could tell us about what you'll be speaking about at this church.

25:55

Well basically, first thing in the morning I'll be giving a presentation on the work of the gospel that I'm involved in out in Africa.

26:07

And then in the morning service, a basic gospel presentation that I will be giving in order to challenge the unbelievers with the exclusive claims of our

26:24

Lord Jesus Christ. And then finally in the evening, a message to believers, again just challenging them with respect now to respond back in loving our

26:39

Lord Jesus Christ and living for him. I love the phrase that Piper uses when he says, don't waste your life.

26:49

And it's so easy for brethren in the U .S. with so many benefits that you tend to take for granted to end up wasting a life instead of investing our entire beings into the great matters of God's kingdom, which will last forever.

27:12

So basically, those are the areas I hope to touch on this coming Sunday. Well, this church,

27:20

Grace Baptist Church of Canton, Michigan, has one of the best websites I've ever seen. They must have grabbed this in the early days when websites were first being made available.

27:31

It's sermon .org, S -E -R -M -O -N .org.

27:37

And what a great website and easy to remember website they have. So if you need any further information on how to get there or if you cannot make it to the services this

27:48

Sunday, how you could get recordings of it, go to sermon .org, and I'm sure you'll be able to get all the information that you need.

27:54

And if you are able to get to Canton, Michigan, this Sunday, I strongly urge you to do so because you will have cherished memories that you will never forget of hearing

28:06

Pastor Conrad and Bayway preach. That is, if you truly love the Word of God, love the gospel, and love biblical preaching, powerful preaching, thunderous preaching.

28:19

I just cannot come up with enough adjectives to commend my dear brother in the gift that God has given him to proclaim his precious and holy

28:29

Word. So I hope that you go to sermon .org and find out more information about that conference.

28:36

The book that we are going to be addressing as soon as we come back from the break is

28:42

Foundations for the Flock, Truths about the Church for All the Saints, and I just want to thank

28:51

Granted Ministries for providing us with copies of this book today and the wonderful folks over at the church that is affiliated with Granted Ministries Christ Fellowship of Hannibal, Missouri.

29:08

But if you would like to join us on the air with a question for Dr. Conrad and Bayway when we come back from the break, our email address is chrizarnsen at gmail .com.

29:17

That's c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. Don't go away.

29:24

We'll be right back, God willing, with Dr. Conrad and Bayway and Foundations for the Flock, Truths about the

29:29

Church for All the Saints. I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries. The New American Standard Bible is perfect for daily reading or in -depth study.

29:37

Used by pastors, scholars, and everyday readers, the NASB is widely embraced and trusted as a literal and readable

29:43

Bible translation. The NASB offers clarity and readability while maintaining high accuracy to the original languages which the

29:49

NASB is known for. The NASB is available in many editions like a topical reference Bible. Researched and prepared by biblical scholars devoted to accuracy, the new topical reference

29:59

Bible includes contemporary topics relevant to today's issues. From compact to giant print

30:04

Bibles, find an NASB that fits your needs very affordably at nasbible .com.

30:10

Trust, discover, and enjoy the NASB for yourself today. Go to nasbible .com.

30:15

That's nasbible .com. Tired of box store Christianity, of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert?

30:24

Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship? And how about the preaching? Perhaps you've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island.

30:35

Well, there's good news. Wedding River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience featuring the systematic exposition of God's Word.

30:45

And this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you. Call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service times.

30:53

631 -929 -3512. Or check out their website at wrbc .us.

31:01

That's wrbc .us. Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune in to a visit to the pastor's study every

31:16

Saturday from 12 noon to 1 pm eastern time on WLIE radio.

31:27

We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions.

31:35

Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull. Join us this Saturday at 12 noon eastern time for a visit to the pastor's study, because everyone needs a pastor.

31:46

Welcome back. This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned in, our guest today for the full two hours of the broadcast is my old friend

31:53

Dr. Conrad M. Bayway, who I have known since 1995 when he first came to preach at Grace Reform Baptist Church of Long Island, New York, where I was once a member while living in that area.

32:04

And I am glad, I'm so delighted that the Lord has continued a friendship all these years between us, and I have had the opportunity to interview him a number of times.

32:14

He is pastor of Kibwata Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia, as I mentioned before, and today we are addressing his book,

32:23

Foundations for the Flock, Truths About the Church for All the Saints, which has been published by Granted Ministries.

32:33

And just in case I forget to mention it later when time is running out, the website for Granted Ministries is grantedministries .org,

32:41

grantedministries .org. And tell us, Dr. M. Bayway, how you first came up with the concept for this book.

32:51

What was the catalyst that led to the compilation of this book?

32:57

Well, you know, since I became pastor of Kibwata Baptist Church, I was burdened about Reformation in the church.

33:08

Reformation being that we learn to go to the Bible and learn how to do church from the scriptures themselves.

33:19

And so I knew that if I simply begin preaching on Sundays, I won't be giving the opportunity for the members to be asking questions and consequently getting clarity.

33:32

So I began an annual seminar at our church every year in November.

33:40

And what I would do during that seminar is come up with a topic and then teach it from a biblical perspective.

33:48

And the topics really varied from issues to do with baptism to issues to do with church government.

33:58

It would be the Lord's Supper, for instance, the role of women in the church, and so on.

34:04

So I would deal with those issues in three sessions and then after each session have a

34:12

Q &A so that members were able to seek further clarity. And from that background, then would be making changes in the life of the church to bring them in line with scripture.

34:25

So that went, it's continued up to today. I still do the November seminars.

34:33

But somewhere in the mid, I think about 2005, 2006, maybe 2007,

34:42

Paul Washer of HeartCry Missionary Society came to Zambia. And oh yeah, before I come to that, what we would do is whenever we would do a seminar like that, the seminar materials would then be compiled into a little booklet that would simply be photocopied and stapled and then sold for something like 50 cents.

35:09

So when Paul Washer came in 2005 or 2006 or 2007, he found approximately 30 of these little booklets scattered,

35:21

I mean being sold. And he asked if he could get a copy each and take them to a publisher in the

35:31

U .S. with a view that the publisher would then choose whether he can publish them or not.

35:38

And I mean, for me it was a surprise that anyone would want that material in order to take it across the

35:46

Atlantic and make something out of it. Well, that's exactly what he did.

35:51

And he shared it with Granted Ministries, Chad Thompson.

35:59

And Chad in Jerusalem got in touch with me and asked that he takes 10 of those booklets and compiles them into a book.

36:11

And that's how Foundations for the Flock came together. And I want to give Pastor Chad Thompson a plug.

36:17

His congregation is Christ Fellowship of Hannibal, Missouri, as I mentioned before. And if anyone wants to find out more about that church, go to ChristFellowshipHannibal .org,

36:29

and Hannibal is spelled H -A -N -N -I -B -A -L .org,

36:35

ChristFellowshipHannibal .org. And well, you begin the book on something that shouldn't be controversial but seems to be very controversial.

36:47

In fact, it has been controversial for centuries. It is the issue of baptism that is not only something that has divided true believers from false, but also even to some degree divides we who call ourselves

37:06

Reformed Christians, the issue of credo versus pedo baptism, believer -only baptism versus infant baptism.

37:14

But you have in the first chapter your baptismal class notes, and if you can explain what you mean by that.

37:22

Yeah, basically what I thought was that it would be good for young believers, as they are considering the subject of baptism, to have a little booklet in their hands that they would then make their way through and understand the basics.

37:42

And so when it was a booklet in Zambia, now it's the first section of this book, basically it covered four topics.

37:53

One is how you became a Christian. So that's your history.

37:59

This is what was happening in the background which has produced the you that is there today.

38:07

And then the second was how you grow as a Christian so that now that you know how you became a

38:14

Christian, you can know what you need to put into place for you to be making progress spiritually.

38:23

With that out of the way, I then handled what baptism is all about, and I would understand that probably that's where the contention would be with pedo -baptists.

38:36

But that's only one section or one chapter. And then I deal with what church membership is all about so that the new believer, upon understanding that baptism is the way in which he is entering into the visible, localized body of Christ, can now begin to understand what he should be doing inside the body of Christ as a covenanted member of that body, he or net.

39:11

So that's how I put all that together, and I must have put it together probably in maybe 1991 or 2 or 3, and so it's been there for quite some time.

39:27

Now, we who are theologically reformed do not believe that baptism is salvific.

39:36

We believe it is something that an obedient Christian must do in order to obey and honor

39:45

Christ, but it is not something that saves them. And in response to that, there are many

39:54

Christians who would share the idea that baptism is not salvific, that unfortunately therefore conclude that it's not important, and they think it's a very trivial issue.

40:07

But this is not the case at all, is it? No, no. I mean, it would be wrong to think that the

40:15

Christian faith is only about what saves you. Salvation is where everything starts.

40:23

But then there's an entire life that needs to be lived in obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ.

40:30

And so baptism is simply one of those commands of our

40:37

Lord that we then obey, because He is now our

40:42

Lord. And it's one of the first commands that we obey, having repented, because as the

40:51

Scriptures say, whoever repents and is baptized will be saved.

40:57

And I think that's fairly clear in the Scriptures. So it's you showing that you have now come under Christ's Lordship.

41:09

What He says, you will do. Where He sends, you will go, as one of the hymn writers puts it.

41:18

So baptism itself doesn't save. If you're a non -Christian, you just become a wet non -Christian after your baptism.

41:27

Doesn't change your stand before God. But if you're a believer, surely you ought to be interested in obeying your new master, the

41:38

Lord Jesus Christ. And He wants you to be identified with His church through baptism.

41:45

Amen. And perhaps if the Lord grants us many more opportunities for interviews, we can go through each of these concepts and actually devote a whole program to each one.

41:58

But since we have a broad range of subjects here, we'll move on for now until we address some of the listener questions, which we already do have a couple of folks waiting for their questions to be asked.

42:08

But I will address them a little bit later after we get through some of these major topics here.

42:16

This is another chapter that is quite controversial in the church that Brethren in Christ disagree with, a biblical church government.

42:27

We who are Reformed Baptists, as you know, Conrad, we have folks that disagree with us both from the

42:34

Baptist background and from the Presbyterian and other Reformed groups who disagree with us because they, the latter, those that are

42:45

Presbyterian and from Dutch Reformed backgrounds and other denominations, have a denominational structure.

42:52

They have presbyteries, they have boards and denominational hierarchical structures that extend beyond the local congregation.

43:03

And although our fundamentalist Baptist friends and other Baptists on the other side would agree with our views on local autonomy and independence as congregations, they would disagree with us, many of them would, on the plurality and parity of elders in the church.

43:21

But if you could address those issues. Yes, again, you know, at the point when

43:27

I was teaching this to our own church, we did not have a plurality and parity of eldership.

43:39

We were largely, no we did have an eldership in place, but we just hadn't thought through matters biblically.

43:49

We had inherited a system and what was wrong at that point was that for us, the deacons and the elders were basically functioning together as a kind of executive committee.

44:07

And when there were more deacons than elders, since they were all entitled to one vote, every so often the deacons would out -vote the elders over issues.

44:19

So it was very clear that there was a need for us to get to the

44:25

Bible, learn what the Bible itself teaches, and then reform our own church's government.

44:33

So at that stage, I wasn't thinking should we go Presbyterian, should we go

44:39

Congregational? I simply said let's get into the Bible and see what the

44:44

Bible teaches. And some of the individuals that I was studying were people like John Owen, who was not

44:56

Baptist, although he was Congregational or independent.

45:04

But that was very helpful. I also went to other books like Biblical Eldership, again, not necessarily written by a

45:18

Reformed Baptist, and so forth. But at the end of the day, what I wanted was to get to the

45:25

Scriptures and see what the Scriptures teach. And then out came everything that is covered there.

45:34

I knew that some of the issues would be fairly controversial in our own church as well, but we did need to open up the

45:45

Bible and see what the Bible says. And I'm glad to say that out of this we were able to make major changes which have saved us a lot of heartache and confusion over the years as a church of the

46:02

Lord Jesus Christ. Yeah, there are very helpful, beneficial, and perhaps even crucial, vital checks and balances when you have a plurality of elders.

46:14

It does not tend toward preventing, although nothing that we humans do is perfect, and it doesn't absolutely with perfection prevent dictatorships in a church.

46:26

But it very often can when you have one man as the sole leader of a congregation.

46:34

That can be potentially a very dangerous thing, can't it? Yes. As I said, in our own church at that point we already had inherited a plurality of elders as a model, and consequently that was not the major issue.

46:53

However, it was important for the rest of the church to appreciate how within the eldership there is mutual accountability.

47:04

I think that was vital so that the elders don't feel as though they are the next rung of the ladder at the bottom of the pastor, but really that the individual that we refer to as pastor is really the one among the elders who labors in the

47:29

Word and doctrine. That's what primarily gives him double honor in terms of recognition and also double honor in terms of remuneration.

47:43

So it's really helped to clarify issues, and we've been functioning together in a context of mutual accountability as elders.

47:55

So the parity aspect of the plurality of elders, would that be that the men are recognized for their different gifts and abilities, but at the same time have equal authority?

48:09

Would that be some way of describing parity of elders? Yes, yes, because it's one eldership.

48:16

So you can't have one eldership but individuals having more authority than others.

48:23

It is one eldership, and consequently you function together. Now granted, as long as you have more than one individual, between yourselves there is leadership inside that eldership.

48:38

But it is a leadership that simply recognizes gifts and roles rather than it being an extra authority that somebody actually has.

48:52

And so once that is properly clarified, there is a very healthy atmosphere within the context of the eldership.

49:02

And there are, I mean, sometimes people listening may think that I'm broad brushing too much or making

49:09

Reformed Baptist a cookie cutter concept where everybody's the same. There are churches that identify as Reformed Baptist who do not believe in the plurality of elders, but there are also

49:20

Reformed Baptist churches that have one pastor, not because that is their church, that is not their adopted church polity.

49:29

It's just because there are no other men in the congregation that are qualified. Would you say that every church that only has one pastor for that reason should be always praying for and seeking for other men to be raised up in the congregation so there is a plurality of elders?

49:46

Yes, definitely. That's the way to go. They may not necessarily already be there, but still it must be something that they are working towards.

49:59

There's no need to rush to the point where you end up bringing unqualified people within the eldership, but sometimes we lift the position of eldership so high that hardly anyone less than Angel Gabriel would qualify.

50:28

That's again an extreme that we need to be careful of, so there's need for some level of balance.

50:35

However, we must all as churches be working in that direction. Now, as I mentioned before, the other side of the spectrum that we have some disagreement with is in regard to denominational structures of polity and government.

50:55

Our dear Presbyterian brethren and other Dutch Reformed, Pato Baptists and other groups, perhaps even if you want to include some of our

51:05

Calvinistic Anglican brothers, they obviously have a denominational structure and a hierarchy that extends beyond the local church.

51:15

Now, what is, in your opinion, the most valuable reason that we who are

51:22

Reformed Baptists are not a part of denominations? We believe in the independence and autonomy of local congregations, although having said that, we do believe that it is very important that congregations cooperate and have communication and fellowship with each other.

51:41

But we don't believe that there is authority outside of that local congregation other than Christ himself.

51:47

So if you could let us know what you think is so valuable about that concept. Yeah, well, again, the basic approach that I took as I was teaching out on church was to say, let's see what the

52:01

Bible says. Sola Scriptura, that's what Reformation is all about.

52:07

It's what does the Bible say, and in fact, it's the Bible stands alone in teaching us concerning faith and practice.

52:20

And when we went to the Bible, it was very difficult for anyone to try and find a denominational structure there.

52:29

What you seemed to find is churches having elders ordained over them, and then the churches are left to be under Christ.

52:44

As the Apostle Paul said when he was bidding farewell to the Ephesian elders in Acts 20, that I now commend you to Christ and his word, which is able to give you a place among the people that God himself is sanctifying.

53:07

And so that's really what you do. And then when we went to the book of Acts, rather to the book of Revelation, again, you could see

53:19

Christ among the lampstands. In other words, he was dealing with each family, each localized entity of his people.

53:32

He was speaking to them directly. There was no area superintendent.

53:38

There were no other individuals who were in charge of multiple churches and so forth.

53:48

It was right to the messenger or the angel of the church of Smyrna or Laodicea, Ephesus and so on, and the word went straight to them.

54:02

And each one ended with the appeal, let him who has ears hear what the

54:09

Spirit is saying to the churches. So each local church was to respond to Christ on its own.

54:18

Now, that's what we saw there. And consequently, later on in the book,

54:24

I deal with biblical inter -church associations. And the question there is, how then do churches relate to one another in view of the fact that they are independent?

54:39

And I deal with biblical basis for inter -church associations. I deal with biblical boundaries for inter -church associations.

54:49

I deal with biblical bonds of inter -church prayer concerns.

54:54

And then finally, I deal with the bonds of purposeful cooperation and inter -church pastoral counsel.

55:05

And in all of these areas, the evidence was there in the Bible. So I was saying to our church, brethren, we are responsible to God to relate to other churches in these different ways.

55:21

Amen. And in the same way that there is such great wisdom in the plurality of elders model, it is very wise for a church not to be an island unto itself.

55:35

In order to prevent that congregation from devolving into a cult of some kind, they should really be seeking out the fellowship of other congregations who are like -minded as much as possible.

55:48

Exactly, exactly. We have R .J. in White Plains, New York, who says that in 1

55:57

Timothy 3 .2, the Apostle Paul says an overseer then must be above reproach, the husband of one wife.

56:07

Do you believe that it is absolutely essential for a pastor to be a married man?

56:16

The answer is no. I think, you know, a person who reads that into that passage of Scripture is reading a little more than what the

56:30

Apostle Paul is saying. Basically, the key in 1

56:35

Timothy 3 .2 is the phrase that he must be above reproach.

56:42

That's the overarching principle. And all the other qualifications that are now coming out after that statement are basically answering to reproach.

56:58

In other words, he must have the kind of life that is above accusation.

57:07

And therefore, the phrase, the husband of one wife is an English translation of the

57:15

Greek phrase, which being translated literally is simply, he must be a one woman man.

57:25

In other words, he must be the kind of person who commits himself to one woman.

57:33

The reproach now being when he is a man who keeps going to different women.

57:41

In other words, he is flirting, he is an adulterer, he is unfaithful, and so on.

57:51

That is where reproach comes from. So, in the same way when you look at all the other qualifications, they are amplifying the fact that a person must be above reproach.

58:05

So, coming now to what the person is saying therefore, to say that a single person has reproach on him would be really straining a nut and swallowing a camel.

58:22

And we do have examples of that in the Bible itself. The Apostle Paul, there is enough evidence that he was a single man and yet he was fulfilling the role of eldership because apostles were elders.

58:39

Now, there are those who say that the reason why they would insist on a man being married in fact with children to be qualified for the eldership is that there is no way to know whether he would manage the church well if he cannot manage his own household well.

59:00

And the only way to know if he would do that is if he had a household, if he had a wife and children, and they would also, these folks who have that opinion would typically say that the

59:12

Apostle Paul was in a unique circumstance because he was an apostle and really was not committed to a single congregation.

59:20

He was an overseer over many churches and the fact that he was traveling all around would perhaps be, would perhaps require him to be single because of the fact that he would be away from his wife and children most of his life perhaps.

59:38

So, if you could comment on those arguments as best as you can. Yeah, again, you know, when you are expounding the scriptures, it's always important to bear in mind overarching principles so that you then don't torture words until they begin to confess a lie.

01:00:02

Now, in the same way, in this passage of scripture, I repeat, the overarching principle is that the overseer must be above reproach.

01:00:16

And even when go to Titus chapter 1, you will find exactly the same formulation that because an overseer has been entrusted with God's work, he must be above reproach.

01:00:33

So, we must not lose sight of that. Okay? So, with that in mind, when we then come to the statement, he must manage his own household well, we begin again to see what the

01:00:46

Apostle Paul has in mind. He's not saying this is the way now you are to weigh this individual, wait until he has a marriage and he has children and he sees how the children are growing up.

01:01:06

Once you've got all that evidence, you're able to say, very well, now let's vote for him.

01:01:13

Rather, what he is saying is this, if a man has a household and he's already made a mess out of it, failing to manage it, clearly, there is reproach there already.

01:01:29

What makes you think you can now give him the church and he's going to do a good job?

01:01:35

In other words, it's again the issue of reproach. So, the phrase is not simply he must manage his own household.

01:01:44

It is that he must manage his own household well because that is where he is above reproach.

01:01:54

So, that's the sense in which the Apostle Paul is putting it, rather than the fact that a person should only be one who is married and also with children.

01:02:06

And the children, I suppose, should be semi -adult or teenagers or something.

01:02:12

Because what it would mean is that if a man is married and then his wife is, or between him and his wife, they are unable to have children, then they can't be elders.

01:02:22

I mean, that's really pushing it because it's got nothing to do with reproach.

01:02:29

And we have to go to a break right now. And by the way, RJ in White Plains, New York, please give us your full name and address because you have won a free copy of Foundations for the

01:02:39

Flock, Truths About the Church for All the Saints by Dr. Conrad Mbewe, compliments of our friends at grantedministries .org.

01:02:48

And that will be shipped out to you by our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com.

01:02:55

That's CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for BibleBookService .com, who are sponsors of the Iron Sharpens Iron program.

01:03:01

So, keep your eye open in the mail for that. We're going to a break right now. Don't go away. We will be right back,

01:03:07

God willing, with Dr. Conrad Mbewe. I am

01:03:13

Chris Arnsen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, here to tell you about an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a

01:03:21

Christian perspective. Try World at no charge for 90 days and get a free copy of R .C.

01:03:27

Sproul's book, Relationship Between Church and State. I rely on World because I trust the reporting.

01:03:34

I gain insight from the analysis and World provides clarity to the news stories that really matter.

01:03:40

I believe you'll also find World to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth that's simply not found in other media outlets.

01:03:48

Armed with this coverage, World can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community.

01:03:54

This trial includes bi -weekly issues of World Magazine, on -scene reporting from World Radio, and the fully shareable content of World Digital.

01:04:03

Simply visit wmg .org forward slash Iron Sharpens to get your

01:04:10

World trial and Dr. Sproul's book all free, no obligation with no credit card required.

01:04:16

Visit World News Group at wmg .org forward slash

01:04:23

Iron Sharpens today. Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, for am

01:04:31

I now seeking the approval of man or of God, or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man,

01:04:38

I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, pastor of Providence Baptist Church. We are a

01:04:44

Reformed church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689. We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

01:04:51

We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do than how men view these things.

01:04:59

That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the Apostle's priority, it must not be ours either.

01:05:06

We believe, by God's grace, that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us, and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love.

01:05:18

If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

01:05:24

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750, that's 508 -528 -5750, or go to our website to email us, listen to past sermons, worship songs, or watch our

01:05:36

TV program entitled Resting in Grace. You can find us at providencebaptistchurchma .org,

01:05:42

that's providencebaptistchurchma .org, or even on sermonaudio .com. Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor

01:05:50

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. by the

01:06:08

Ethisphere Institute, a leading international think tank dedicated to the creation, advancement, and sharing of best practices in business ethics.

01:06:17

Contact me, Mike Gallagher, financial consultant, at 717 -254 -6433.

01:06:24

Again, 717 -254 -6433 to learn more about the

01:06:30

Thriving Difference. We know we were made for so much more than ordinary life.

01:06:38

Lending faith, finances, and generosity, that's the Thriving Story. We were made to thrive.

01:06:58

Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune in to A Visit to the Pastors Study every

01:07:03

Saturday from 12 noon to 1 pm Eastern Time on WLIE Radio, www .wlie540am

01:07:14

.com. We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the

01:07:20

Pastors Study by calling in with your questions. Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull.

01:07:26

Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to the Pastors Study, because everyone needs a pastor.

01:07:33

Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours, with a little less than an hour to go, is

01:07:40

Dr. Conrad M. Bewe, the pastor of Kabwata Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia, Africa.

01:07:46

We are discussing his book, Foundations for the Flock, Truths about the Church for All Saints, published by GrantedMinistries .org,

01:07:55

and if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com,

01:08:01

chrisarnzen at gmail .com. Before we go on to the next chapter, we have a question from Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York, who wants to know, what is the overall standing of Reformed soteriology in Zambia?

01:08:20

I guess he's just asking, how prevalent is Reformed theology amongst the professing Christians in Zambia, Africa?

01:08:29

It's very little. I'll probably be talking in terms of less than 5%,

01:08:37

I think. By and large, most of the denominations would be doctrinally lethargic.

01:08:47

In other words, I wouldn't even want to describe them as Armenians. They generally don't emphasize doctrine, which is very sad, because what it means is that any false teachings that come into the country tend to sweep people away.

01:09:08

Part of the reason is historical. What happened was the initial missionaries that brought the evangelical faith to Central Africa divided themselves out among the different tribes.

01:09:25

It was the easiest way in which they could then learn the languages, work out the grammar, translate the

01:09:33

Bible into those languages, and consequently evangelize the people. So fast forward a good 50 plus years, they now had indigenous leaders that they handed over the

01:09:49

Christian faith to. Those leaders were thinking primarily in terms of, this denomination belongs to this tribe.

01:09:59

That's the way they began to think. They were not being taught to think like that.

01:10:05

It just so happened to inadvertently happen. Hence, when they are evangelizing, it was primarily in terms of, if you belong to this tribe, this is your church.

01:10:20

Even when urbanization began to happen, and people began to migrate from the villages into the cities, all that they would do is open up a church building under that name and then announce in the city that, you people who belong to this tribe, your church has come.

01:10:43

And that's how people then began to identify, if you are reformed, then you are

01:10:52

Nyanja or Chewa or Senga speaking, rather than that this is the biblical doctrinal position.

01:11:04

So out of that context, therefore, there was neither an emphasis in Arminianism, nor an emphasis in Calvinistic soteriology.

01:11:17

The more recent reformed movement that is spreading across the country is spreading primarily through, initially through books, especially

01:11:32

Banner of Truth books, when they were more available in the country. And secondly, through an expositional preaching movement that's causing people then to begin to see, as they make their way through large chunks of the

01:11:49

Bible, the doctrinal content which is there. So it is growing.

01:11:55

It's exciting to see what's happening, especially in the young professionals, among the young professionals rather, but it's still got a long way to go, a long, long way to go.

01:12:11

By the way, I don't know if you realize this, Dr. Conrad Mbewe, but I am sitting about a two -minute drive from the

01:12:21

United States headquarters of Banner of Truth, about a 10 -minute walk, 15 -minute walk, but it's right down the block, and I'm sure the next time you visit this area,

01:12:34

I would love to take you on a visit there to Banner of Truth, and also Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, which has got a lot of different reformed publishers represented in their books there.

01:12:48

Wow. I'll come with two empty suitcases. And I'll distract the management there while you just fill up your suitcases and we can leave.

01:13:03

But they're amazing though, because in the front of the Banner of Truth there, they have these books that they call damaged, and they have them for half price, and you're looking at the book, you could have a magnifying glass and not see what's wrong with them.

01:13:19

Yeah. I don't even know why they're calling them damaged. By the way, we have a listener.

01:13:26

I don't know if you remember meeting him, but we have a listener who is in the, he's a member of the

01:13:35

Reformed Baptist Church in Lagos, Nigeria, Sovereign Grace Bible Church.

01:13:43

His name is Osinachi, and I may be mispronouncing that, O -S -I -N -A -C -H -I, but he said he met you when you were visiting

01:13:52

Nigeria for some kind of a conference. Yeah, his name sounds very familiar.

01:13:57

He must be my friend on Facebook. Okay. And we hope that Osinachi keeps, do you think that's the way to pronounce it,

01:14:07

Osinachi or Nosinaki? Osinachi, yes. Yes, that's the spelling.

01:14:15

Well, I hope you continue spreading the word in Nigeria about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Osinachi.

01:14:22

But, and by the way, Tyler, I forgot to mention, Tyler from Mastic Beach, Long Island, you have won a free copy of the book we are discussing,

01:14:31

Foundations for the Flock, Truths About the Church for All the Saints by Dr. Conrad Mbewe, compliments of grantedministries .org.

01:14:40

And we thank the folks at grantedministries .org and also at Christ Fellowship of Hannibal, Missouri, Pastor Chad Thompson and the brethren there for supplying us with these books.

01:14:57

Let's see here, we have a very, another very controversial issue that not only divides

01:15:04

Reformed Baptists from other Christians, but even there is some disagreement amongst

01:15:11

Reformed Baptists on the Lord's Supper. Some have more of a Zwinglian understanding of the supper as being purely a memorial.

01:15:20

Some of the Reformed Baptist brethren view it more highly than that as a means of grace.

01:15:27

And they may highlight some spiritual presence of Christ in or at the supper.

01:15:35

But tell us about your understanding of the Lord's Supper. Yes, again, as I said to you when

01:15:43

I was dealing with this subject, the primary issue was that a lot of our people had just inherited the

01:15:52

Lord's Supper. They had not thought through it biblically. And I thought it important that I take them into the scriptures rather than use an approach where I'm simply giving it to them as doctrine or a kind of historical development of the teachings around the

01:16:17

Lord's Supper. I deliberately went to the passages of scripture that deal with it.

01:16:24

For instance, I dealt with its origin in the Passover. So the shift from the

01:16:34

Passover into the Lord's Supper as we know it.

01:16:41

I also then dealt with its proper administration and then finally dealt with its qualified recipients.

01:16:51

At that point, my concern was that there were individuals in the church that were keeping away from the

01:16:59

Lord's Supper because of a wrong understanding of the teaching with respect to who qualifies.

01:17:12

So when it speaks about searching yourself before you participate, they were thinking more in terms of searching yourself if you cannot remember the last time you sinned, then you could go ahead.

01:17:25

Not that they put it in as many words, but that was the attitude. Rather than when you look at it in the context of 1

01:17:35

Corinthians 10 and 11, you find there that it is talking more in terms of pausing in order to recognize what it is that you are about to engage in, what it is that these emblems represent and so on.

01:17:55

You don't go about it carelessly. So I was quite concerned to make sure that there is a deliberate biblical understanding of it.

01:18:07

Now having said that, yes, I see it as a means of grace. I see it as something that we participate in in order to remember the

01:18:18

Lord's death in the bread and the cup, that nothing happens to those emblems that is magical or transformational, but rather they are simply a means by which our own faith goes from the symbol to that which is symbolized, and that is the death of our

01:18:42

Lord Jesus Christ. Amen, and we are now coming to probably the most controversial of all the issues we could possibly discuss, the role of women in the church.

01:18:56

Obviously, sometimes you are risking your life bringing up your opinion depending upon where you are, stating your opinion publicly on this issue.

01:19:06

You might even lose some friends or some limbs depending upon who you're talking to, but I am assuming you're a

01:19:16

Reformed Baptist and everything I know about you, I'm assuming you believe in male, exclusively male headship in the church and male headship in the home as well.

01:19:28

Of course, not that women do not have some realms of authority over other women and children, but if you could explain in better ways than I could your position on that.

01:19:41

Yeah, this was one section of the book that was not actually for my own congregation.

01:19:48

What happened was that a church down the road was having to deal with this issue.

01:19:57

There was a movement within the denomination, the Reformed Church in Zambia, towards the ordination of women.

01:20:07

So they needed to hear, as it were both sides of the argument in this particular church, how they knew that my position was exactly as you've represented it, that the eldership was male.

01:20:23

I don't know, but they gave me that responsibility. So I prepared to teach on this and then they canceled the event.

01:20:37

I'm not sure why they canceled it, but my material was now ready. So I decided then to make it a little booklet as well that would be sold regularly in case anybody had a question.

01:20:53

I based it primarily on 1 Timothy chapter 2, where the apostle

01:21:00

Paul is very clear about the role of women in the church.

01:21:07

And then from that passage, I was able to bring in the richness, the breadth and length of God's revelation right across the scripture.

01:21:19

Now, I'm assuming that you would agree with me that having said all that, we would be idiots if we did not recognize and seek to utilize and bless the church with gifts that women have.

01:21:36

I know there are women who are brilliant authors, and I know that there are some of our brethren who would share our complementarian understanding of marriage and of male headship exclusively in the church who get even upset over that.

01:21:55

But I do not. I believe that a woman who is a gifted writer and who is biblically faithful has every right within the church to write books and to bless the church with them.

01:22:11

And of course, we even had a really precious sister in Christ, Rosaria Butterfield, speak at the

01:22:18

G3 conference that we were both at. Rosaria Butterfield is a former leftist lesbian tenured professor at Syracuse University who was transformed by the power and blood of Jesus Christ and is now a born again believer, married to a man and a pastor.

01:22:40

And she has totally repudiated her former lifestyle and is living for God's glory and seeking to bring the gospel not only to homosexuals or those who are involved in that activity, but to all folks, regardless of their background.

01:23:00

And of course, she did not preach. She was not there as a fellow pastor among pastors.

01:23:09

She was giving her testimony, so it was somewhat different. But what is your view on those different ways that women can be used to bless and benefit and edify the church?

01:23:20

Yeah, in fact, in the conclusion of that section, I deal with a number of ways in which women can be involved in the life of the church.

01:23:33

I provide at least six areas. And one of them, which touches on what you talked about, is in terms of teaching ministries.

01:23:41

So I've talked there in quite some detail and my approach all the time is to get to the

01:23:49

Bible, to give evidence of it. So for instance, with respect to teaching children, it's very clear

01:23:58

I bring it out from 1 Timothy 5. And verse 10, I deal with teaching fellow women from Titus chapter 2.

01:24:09

I deal with the teaching of men from Acts 18, 26, where Priscilla and Aquila take

01:24:18

Apollos aside and seek to help him come to a firmer understanding of the faith.

01:24:27

And you can see that it's not being done within the church, it's not being done from the pulpit of the church.

01:24:34

Priscilla, clearly there with her husband, see that this man needs a bit of fine -tuning in his theology and consequently, they take him aside.

01:24:46

Now clearly, that also then can be amplified in terms of the writing of books, which you have just referred to and so forth.

01:24:56

It's again in the context where they have got these ministries, these abilities, and as long as they maintain it under the oversight of their own elders in their own churches, rather than flying off the handle and consequently going their own way.

01:25:21

You know, a typical example has been our sister, Martha Peace, whose pastor was again speaking at the

01:25:30

G3 conference a few days ago. Yes, John Kratz. Yes, she's ensured that her teaching ministry remains under the oversight of her own elders.

01:25:42

And then I've dealt with evangelistic endeavors, I've dealt with ministerial support, I've dealt with a number of other areas that really should make women stand and be spent for the cause of the gospel.

01:26:01

Amen, amen. I can remember even one brother who behaved absolutely ridiculously.

01:26:08

I was in a Reformed Baptist church and my brother was sitting next to me and when we got up to sing, he realized that the hymn we were singing was written by a woman and he actually threw his hymnal on the floor.

01:26:22

He was not a representative of that church though. Obviously, they were singing that hymn so he had nothing to do with the mindset of that congregation, but that is to me bizarre and just totally ridiculous.

01:26:37

Yeah. In fact, we have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania who wants to know, can we who are in faithful churches in regard to the soul headship of men have true fellowship with churches that have a female pastor or even female pastors, plural.

01:27:02

Are these even really churches? I do not mean to sound harsh, but these circumstances do come up from time to time and I was wondering what your thoughts were and on a second related issue, if we could have a level of fellowship with churches that perhaps have men in the lead pastoral roles but have women elders beside them.

01:27:31

Yeah, well clearly there is need for reformation there in those churches.

01:27:38

While those churches are undergoing reformation, assuming they are open to reforming, we have to learn to be patient with them.

01:27:49

We have to learn to raise the right questions so that they are directed to the scriptures.

01:27:58

Where such churches clearly, deliberately, stubbornly reject the truths that are staring them in the face, then yes, we have every right then to withdraw because on what basis are we then having fellowship?

01:28:17

Especially on such primary basic issues. And always remember that backsliding as churches begins when churches deliberately ignore, for the sake of expediency, clear teachings from the

01:28:41

Bible. But where there is genuine humility, people wanting to learn,

01:28:48

I think those of us who have taken a few more steps in the direction of reformation have to remember where we have come from and not be too judgmental and want to have absolutely nothing to do with anyone who doesn't cross our t's and dot our i's the way we do.

01:29:08

I think it's vital that we are more sensitive. So I would urge that the elders of a church should listen more closely to the chemistry that is taking place within the context of a church that is not exactly where they themselves are and then seek to come alongside them appropriately where they reject, that's fine, but where they are willing to listen and get on the road of reformation that we allow ourselves some space to come alongside them and work with them and have fellowship with them.

01:29:54

Amen. And Arnie and Perry County, give me your full name and mailing address so we can have this book shipped out to you, the book that we have been discussing,

01:30:05

Foundations for the Flock, Trues About the Church for All the Saints by Dr. Conrad Mbewe, Compliments of GrantedMinistries .org

01:30:13

that's GrantedMinistries .org and the fine brethren at Christ Fellowship of Hannibal, Missouri, Pastor Chad Thompson and the brethren there have been very gracious to us today to extend these gifts to you.

01:30:30

So please get us your mailing address. We're going to our final break right now and if anybody else would like to join us on the air, we do have a couple more of you still waiting to have your questions asked and we thank you for your patience but we will be back after these messages but if you'd like to join them, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

01:30:51

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com Don't go away. God willing, we will be right back.

01:30:59

I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries. The New American Standard Bible is perfect for daily reading or in -depth study.

01:31:05

Used by pastors, scholars and everyday readers, the NASB is widely embraced and trusted as a literal and readable

01:31:10

Bible translation. The NASB offers clarity and readability while maintaining high accuracy to the original languages which the

01:31:17

NASB is known for. The NASB is available in many editions like a topical reference Bible. Researched and prepared by biblical scholars devoted to accuracy, the new topical reference

01:31:27

Bible includes contemporary topics relevant to today's issues. From compact to giant print

01:31:32

Bibles, find an NASB that fits your needs very affordably at nasbible .com.

01:31:38

Trust, discover and enjoy the NASB for yourself today. Go to nasbible .com.

01:31:43

That's nasbible .com. Tired of box store Christianity, of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert?

01:31:52

Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship? And how about the preaching? Perhaps you've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island.

01:32:02

Well, there's good news. Wedding River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience featuring the systematic exposition of God's Word.

01:32:12

And this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you. Call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service times.

01:32:21

631 -929 -3512. Or check out their website at wrbc .us.

01:32:29

That's wrbc .us. Useful and I assure you never dull.

01:33:07

Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs a pastor.

01:33:20

Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio is sponsored by Harvey Cedars, a year -round Bible conference and retreat center nestled on the

01:33:27

Jersey Shore. Harvey Cedars offers a wide range of accommodations to suit groups up to 400.

01:33:33

For generations, Christians have enjoyed gathering and growing at Harvey Cedars. Each year, thousands of high school and college students come and learn more about God's Word.

01:33:45

An additional 9 ,000 come annually to Harvey Cedars as families, couples, singles, men, women, pastors, seniors, and missionaries.

01:33:56

90 miles from New York City, 70 miles from Philly, and 95 miles from Wilmington, and easily accessible, scores of notable

01:34:05

Christian groups frequently plan conferences at Harvey Cedars, like the Navigators, InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, Campus Crusade, and the

01:34:15

Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals. Find Harvey Cedars on Facebook or at hcbible .org,

01:34:23

hcbible .org. Call 609 -494 -5689, 609 -494 -5689.

01:34:34

Harvey Cedars, where Christ finds people and changes lives. Lindbrook Baptist Church on 225

01:34:49

Earl Avenue in Lindbrook, Long Island, is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century. Our church is far more than a

01:34:56

Sunday worship service. It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.

01:35:02

It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement. It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing.

01:35:10

We're a diverse family of all ages. Enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ. In fellowship, play, and together.

01:35:16

Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman, and I invite you to come and join us here at Lindbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.

01:35:22

Call Lindbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599 -9402.

01:35:30

Or visit lindbrookbaptist .org. That's lindbrookbaptist .org. Iron Sharpens Iron welcomes

01:35:41

Solid Rock Remodeling to our family of sponsors. Serving South Central Pennsylvania, Solid Rock Remodeling is focused on discovering, understanding, and exceeding your expectations.

01:35:54

They deliver personalized project solutions with exceptional results. Solid Rock Remodeling offers a full range of home renovations, including kitchen and bath remodeling, decks, porches, windows and doors, roof and siding, and more.

01:36:11

For a clear, detailed, professional estimate, call this trustworthy team of problem solvers who provide superior results that stand the test of time.

01:36:22

Call Solid Rock Remodeling at 717 -697 -1981.

01:36:28

717 -697 -1981. Or visit solidrockremodeling .com.

01:36:36

That's solidrockremodeling .com. Solid Rock Remodeling, bringing new life to your home.

01:36:43

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen, and if you just tuned us in, for the last 90 minutes in the next half hour to come, our guest has been and will continue to be

01:36:51

Dr. Conrad Mbewe of Kabwata Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia, Africa.

01:36:57

We have been speaking about his book, Foundations for the Flock, Truths About the Church for All the

01:37:03

Saints, published by GrantedMinistries .org. GrantedMinistries .org.

01:37:09

And we do have a couple more people waiting to have their questions asked and answered.

01:37:14

We have Edwin in Lexington, South Carolina. Can women be called to a deacon position for the sole purpose of ministering to single women?

01:37:28

Yeah, again, I've dealt with that in my book. Basically, what I have said is this paucity of information in the

01:37:40

Bible itself with respect to women deacons. And part of the reason is that even in that paucity of information, you still end up with a gray area.

01:37:56

And the gray area being that the word deacon in the Bible, at least in the

01:38:01

Greek, simply means servant. And so you're not sure when you come across a woman who's being referred to as a servant as to whether it is an official role that she has or simply the fact that she is serving.

01:38:22

Which is what we see with Phoebe in Romans chapter 16.

01:38:31

And so what I've done in the book is I have listed a number of respected scholars, commentators, preachers in history who have interpreted such texts as referring to the actual deaconate office.

01:38:54

I've also referred to other prominent commentators, preachers, scholars who've seen that as a woman playing a role of servanthood in the context of the church but not necessarily conferred with the office of deaconate.

01:39:20

And in that sense, therefore, I made the argument to my own church that let's not be dogmatic about this because we can see for ourselves that people we respect are falling onto the two sides.

01:39:37

Then I finally end up by saying what everyone is agreeing to here is that women should play such a role whether you give them a title or not is where the contention is.

01:39:54

And so to answer the question finally that the person is asking, yes, in terms of playing the role,

01:40:03

I think the Bible clearly mandates that. As to whether we should give them the office or not,

01:40:10

I think we should leave it open to the eldership of individual churches that clearly still want to be biblical to decide one way or the other.

01:40:23

Thank you, Edwin, and give us your full mailing address because you have also won a free copy of our book that we have been discussing,

01:40:31

Foundations for the Flock, Truths About the Church for All the Saints by Dr. Conrad Mbewe, published by grantedministries .org.

01:40:39

We have Aaron in Indianapolis, Indiana, and it's a good thing that we are taking our questions via email rather than phone call because women are to be silent in the church.

01:40:52

I'm just kidding. Hey, I got a good laugh at you there, brother.

01:40:59

Yeah. Aaron says, Hi, Chris and Brother Mbewe.

01:41:06

What a joy to have met you both in Atlanta. My question is, are these controversial issues mostly controversial in America or also in Africa?

01:41:16

If so, what are some of the differences you see in the churches between Africa and the USA? And of course, we could take two hours at least talking about that.

01:41:26

Yeah, well, my initial comment, in a sense, I've already handled it when I was dealing with the resurgence of Calvinistic soteriology in Africa.

01:41:38

And I was making the point that generally speaking, we're coming from a background where when the earlier missionaries handed over the

01:41:50

Christian faith to African leaders, the emphasis was not so much on doctrine as on tribe.

01:42:00

This church belongs to us. And because of that, therefore, if you go forward now another 50 years, getting closer to our time, you don't really have churches that are doctrinally articulate.

01:42:21

And therefore, the issues of controversy, doctrinal controversy, were not the primary issues in the lives of the churches.

01:42:33

Whereas over on your end, you are dividing over extreme issues.

01:42:40

I mean, more recently, the Reformed Baptists are dividing over whether God has emotions or not.

01:42:49

And they are appealing to all kinds of historic writers and all kinds of passages in Scripture being identified.

01:43:01

I mean, if you try to bring that over across the Atlantic into Africa, people will be wondering, you know, haven't you got enough problems already?

01:43:13

You know, to start bringing that up as a serious point of contention.

01:43:19

So, yes, I do agree that we don't have as much doctrinal contention back home as you have on your end.

01:43:29

That's good, but it's also bad. It's bad in the sense that a lot of extreme charismatic madness is taking root in evangelical churches, and there is no effort at kicking those heresies out simply because the churches are suffering from doctrinal

01:43:59

AIDS, if you get the picture that I'm using, the lack of immunity from doctrinal error.

01:44:09

So in that sense, there is some greater level of peace and unity, but it is at the expense of truth.

01:44:18

Thank you, Aaron in Indianapolis, Indiana, and you have won a copy as well of this book,

01:44:25

Foundations for the Flock, published by grantadministries .org. Make sure we have your mailing address, and thanks again for contributing to the program.

01:44:37

And we have, in fact, I did want to let you know, Aaron, you have won the last copy that we're giving away as well.

01:44:46

So we appreciate you squeezing that in before we ran out of books, and I'm sure you appreciate it more than we do.

01:44:56

But God bless you, sister, and it was a pleasure meeting you as well in Atlanta, Georgia. And we do have a listener all the way in Kinross, Scotland, Murray, who says some brethren assemblies, and I'm assuming he means the

01:45:13

Plymouth Brethren, but there are different brethren groups, put into practice the example of Paul's commendations of visiting friends.

01:45:23

They see this as not only putting an emphasis on giving the visitor an appropriate welcome, but also protecting the assembly against error.

01:45:35

I wonder if Dr. Mbewe has considered letters of commendation and could mention any pros and cons to this approach.

01:45:45

Yeah, in fact, when I was teaching at church, that's one of the areas that I dealt with under inter -church association.

01:45:57

I dealt with the way in which the

01:46:03

Apostle Paul, for instance, would commend a particular brother to another church, clearly showing that the person, therefore, is coming with, if I could draw a triangle, someone arrives, you don't know him, but because somebody else whom you know knows him and he has a certain view of that individual, therefore, you are able to receive him as if you know him, because of the level of trust that you have with the commender.

01:46:48

So I dealt with that under inter -church association.

01:46:55

However, what I did discourage when I was teaching was the tendency that we had back home in Zambia, where there is a duplicated or photocopied letter and all they do is fit in a person's name, take a few boxes and sign.

01:47:18

Now, that's no good because it's now simply an official management process.

01:47:28

It has lost the sense of we know this person, we can, as it were, stick our necks out concerning who he is, who she is, where his or her gifts lie, et cetera, et cetera.

01:47:46

And that's really what I was discouraging, that we need to deliberately pay a price by taking time to do a commendation that is in real time about a person who is going from one church to the other, especially if they have already been proving themselves in leadership, for instance.

01:48:11

You don't want them to start from scratch. You want to be able to say the brother who has come to you is a proven preacher and he's already been teaching in these ways so that the church there immediately begins to take time to use that individual or, to change the picture a little, it's where the brother or sister goes into a particular town and they are very needy.

01:48:41

They've gone into that town, perhaps, seeking medical attention for a child. And consequently, you want the brethren in that town to come alongside, to come around them with their

01:48:56

Christian love. Again, it's important that some deliberate commendation is done that enables them to bridge the gap of time and consequently receive much help.

01:49:13

So in that sense, I was able to speak in terms of commendation letters.

01:49:18

I think it's a good practice where it is utilized and I'll be the first one to confess that back home in Zambia, we don't do it as much as we ought to.

01:49:29

But I think at the moment it's because we are still very much a small, well -knit association of churches where we know one another so much.

01:49:42

But as the body of Christ in which we function grows,

01:49:48

I think we will need to begin using commendation letters a lot more.

01:49:53

Thank you, Murray and Ken Ross Scotland. Please continue spreading the word about Iron Troupe and Zion in Scotland and the rest of the

01:50:01

UK. We move on now to a chapter that is also controversial.

01:50:07

I mean, all of this is really has some level of controversy because brethren, even in the same fellowship theologically, have disagreement over it.

01:50:17

And this one is the regulative principle of worship that you expound upon in a chapter on worship and spirit and truth.

01:50:25

And I believe that the issue that even some Reformed Baptists disagree upon regarding the regulative principle, although I think most of them adhere to it or profess to, is the area of the silence in the

01:50:38

Bible about certain issues. Those who believe in the regulative principle primarily would say that the silence is a prohibition to be involved in the activity in worship.

01:50:50

Whereas the other group would say that the silence is a open door giving us permission on many activities that are not specifically mentioned.

01:51:00

But what is your view on the regulative principle? Yeah, again, if we keep it in context, here

01:51:08

I was as pastor of a church that is needing to think through its worship.

01:51:16

Why do we do what we do? Why should we reject some of the modern innovations that are popular, drawing the crowds in our own worship?

01:51:31

Why should we reject them? And also at that time, what was happening was that some of our own church members were getting a hold of tapes.

01:51:45

It was at a time before DVDs and CDs and so on. They were getting a hold of tapes and beginning to distribute them among the unwary in the church so that they could then undermine the eldership in the way in which we conducted our worship.

01:52:07

So I felt at that stage, instead of simply pressing the panic button, I should teach our congregation how the

01:52:17

Bible itself teaches on worship. And what I did was to go to the

01:52:24

Old Testament, deal with worship as it was opened up in the

01:52:30

Old Testament, the Ten Commandments, tabernacle and temple worship, and then how it was conducted during the synagogue worship when the people of Israel were scattered under God's judgment in the diaspora.

01:52:48

So I dealt with that and then I went into the New Testament and showed how with the coming of the

01:52:55

Holy Spirit, the worship was liberated from the tabernacle and temple worship through the death of the

01:53:06

Lord Jesus Christ, the coming in of the Spirit, where believers now became priests.

01:53:13

All of them were priests rather than having a separate priesthood.

01:53:19

So I dealt with that and showed its simplicity. That's why I called it worship in spirit and truth.

01:53:27

And then I went into history and it was in the history that I then brought in the

01:53:34

Reformers and the way in which they were challenged because over the medieval era, there was a lot of rubble that was then placed onto the simplicity of worship that was in the

01:53:51

New Testament. And now the Reformers had to think through what is it that we should throw out, what is it that we should keep, what is it that we can authoritatively, as church leaders, insist must be part of worship.

01:54:10

And so that's where the nominative and the the regulative principle were put side by side and I was able to show the way we ought to take.

01:54:26

So that's really the history behind that section in the book on worship in spirit and truth.

01:54:37

Now there are some of our brethren, and we don't have time to really discuss this at length, but some of our brethren would say we are not adhering properly or consistently to the regulative principle if we have musical instruments in the congregation.

01:54:52

There are some brethren that even take it further and say that we should be using exclusive psalmody. But how do you respond to those brethren?

01:55:00

Yeah, basically what I did when I was teaching at church, we definitely had to wrestle with those issues as well, was to make it clear that what the regulative principle does is first of all to clarify what the elements of worship are.

01:55:22

And between the Reformers and the Puritans, they ended up with five.

01:55:30

Some would have thrown in a sixth one, but there were definitely basically five of them.

01:55:38

And then came in the issue of modes.

01:55:44

And it's really at the level of modes. In other words, what form do these six elements take?

01:56:00

And it's really there that the controversy lies. In other words, for instance, the element of singing is very clearly part of what

01:56:12

God says we should do when we worship him. We ought to sing to him. Now, what is the mode of that singing?

01:56:22

Should it only be psalms? Should it be hymns and spiritual songs?

01:56:32

So there, should we include choruses? That's where the controversy lies.

01:56:38

And what I wanted our church to see is that we must be clear about the elements.

01:56:46

When it comes to the forms, we may disagree with some other brethren, but let's remember that the main issue is the elements.

01:56:57

Singing. Are we singing unto the Lord? If some brethren want to limit themselves to psalms, praise the

01:57:06

Lord. Let them limit themselves to psalms. If others want to add hymns and spiritual songs, as we did at our own church, that's fine.

01:57:15

And then lastly came the circumstances that the form of the element takes.

01:57:25

In other words, should we be singing before or after the sermon? How many songs should we sing?

01:57:31

Should we use a hymn book or should we use overhead projectors? Should it be a cappella?

01:57:37

Should we have instrumental accompaniment? Should we have congregational singing or a choir, et cetera, et cetera?

01:57:44

Those now come into the circumstances. And what I was arguing was that the circumstance should be a servant to the form and the form should be a servant to the element.

01:58:02

Amen. The principle I give to our church. Amen. Well, we're out of time, brother. And I know that your website is conradandbayway .com

01:58:10

C -O -N -R -A -D -M as in Michael, B as in boy, E -W -E .com.

01:58:16

And also the fine folks at grantedministries .org have provided us the free books today.

01:58:24

And I want to remind our listeners to always remember for the rest of their lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater savior than you are a sinner.

01:58:33

Thank you so much, Dr. Conrad and Bayway, for being my guest again. I look forward with eager anticipation to your return to Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio.

01:58:41

Thank you. Thanks, Chris. Thanks for having me. Bye -bye. God bless you. And I hope many of you can hear and see

01:58:48

Dr. Conrad and Bayway this Sunday at the Grace Baptist Church of Canton, Michigan.

01:58:55

Go to sermon .org for more information. Sermon .org. And that's for his speaking engagements this

01:59:01

Sunday, January 29th at Grace Baptist Church in Canton, Michigan.