God's Sovereignty with Godless Granny??

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00:04

This you said statements either true or false. I gave you a statement and you said it doesn't apply Not do that.

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It's not only to that statements would be either true or false So is it true that I'm talking to you?

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Is it true? That is true statement. I'm talking to you. Is that true? Yes. Okay. Is it true that babies exist?

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Well, I mean how babies exist Babies exist. Is that true or is it not the case that it's true?

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I would be very strict about it. I would be skeptical about okay, we're done talking

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We are live apologetics live here to answer your most challenging questions about God and the

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Bible This is a ministry of striving fraternity. I am your host Andrew Rappaport. We can hear at this podcast

01:08

We can answer any question that you have about God in the Bible no matter how hard no matter how difficult no matter how challenging

01:16

I can answer any question you have about God in the Bible Just remember one thing when you asked me that most challenging question.

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I don't know is a perfectly good answer I never said I'd give a satisfying answer.

01:27

Let me welcome in my co -host here drew Good to be here good to be here.

01:34

Hello everyone. I Love coming in like my home in my home away from home

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You know, I never get tired of that clip with Matt slick when we had him on with it with the guy that wanted to Be couldn't really be sure whether there were babies.

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Hey, you know, I got something in the mail today. Did you yeah I got this little sticker that that says

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Timeless fragrances and it came with some casino bar or no, it's casino nor Yeah, yeah

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The new fragrance getting ready to come out in production Yeah, folks and now everyone's gonna be contacting you go.

02:11

Hey, where can I get mine? Well, that's now you got to figure out how to Get you in trouble and make you busy all the time.

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So so let me Let me introduce the our guests for the first hour

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And they first say how this came about This was something where I Had gotten a video sent to me as we get very often drew and next week

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You're you're unfortunately I got to be it's actually I guess there are three videos technically, but to to two videos

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There were one was clipped in in two parts But that I was asked to respond to and I'm gonna let you respond with John Harris next week

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Cuz I probably won't be here if I do get here. I'll be late because I'll be in Washington DC But other than that,

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I was sent a video of a Professing atheist known as godless granny that was responding to my friend

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Layton flowers Now, I know some people get upset when I say he's my friend, but sorry,

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I I have strange friends. What can I say? He is a friend of mine. I do like him He's a good guy.

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I Last week we had an atheist another professing atheist bill on who I consider a friend and I really love that guy, too

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So there so did late did Layton block you in the past and did he unblock you not that I know of?

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Okay, it's just me. Okay, I'd be really surprised. I Would think he would tell me if he was gonna block me so godless granny was doing a response video to It was

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I and I didn't know the other person I'll let her give the backdrop to it, but basically, the the video was about God's sovereignty human responsibility and I and I was asked to respond to the video

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I think because people like when I respond to Layton But then if I do it three minute response to Layton that becomes a three hour video of on his channel

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So yes, and then I have to go watch that but but not The reality is is that I figured why bother

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Responding to the video when well, I just reached out to godless. Granny and said hey, would you like to come in?

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So So folks know who she is she goes by the name godless granny and She is a retired attorney

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We'll ask her we're gonna have to ask her drew whether she's Jewish for folks who don't know see being

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Jewish I was raised to debate I've always said that the reason most Jewish people become lawyers is the only job you get paid to debate, you know

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Well, maybe politicians, but they only debate like once every four years. So that doesn't really count but she is they're not even good ones

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Yeah, they don't really debate. Well, so she's a retired attorney originally from Milwaukee, Wisconsin now lives in in Alabama She has three children and five grandchildren

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So I'll have to see if that was the cause of the move that's gonna be my theory not the children the grandchildren Just saying cuz

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I'm in that stage She she's Professes that she used to be a

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Christian for 42 years. She says that as at that time she helped to build a church a

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Church library from scratch taught women's Bible studies children Sunday school VBS and led couples groups

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She had been on two overseas missions trips as well as numerous home missions projects currently granny is an activist feminist transparent and Asexual her interests lie in religion politics

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Transgender and LGBTQ rights and women's rights She loves being part of the atheist community and hopes to be able to make a worthy a worthwhile contribution she's when she's not

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Making YouTube videos. She is a CASA volunteer now I don't know what that is, but I'm gonna ask her that so Her real name.

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I'm gonna give just a first name because I just asked her if I could do that And her name is Kelly. So welcome

06:21

Kelly. How are you? I'm fine. Thank you very much Okay, so you already know some of the first questions. I'm gonna ask was the move due to grandchildren.

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No, no I I would like to move to be near my grandchildren But four of them live in Virginia and one lives in San Diego So you'd have to choose well you got more and one in Virginia, so yeah,

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I Guess I guess the one is it San Diego just loses then but that yeah, that's gonna be tough

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So you moved not because the grandkids know my husband still works. He is not retired and we move for his job

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What is what is CASA? Casa, it's court -appointed special advocates it's a national organization and We work with the court system to it's it's primarily to support kids in foster care

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Our primary role is as investigators and a judge will appoint us as extra eyes on a case usually

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One of the problems with the foster care system is the guardian at light them the attorney that is paid to be

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Representing the children Usually gets a flat fee and it's usually a flat fee of like $1 ,000

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And so when you've got a case that goes on for years that thousand dollars is gone very quickly and so the guardian at light him is not visiting the kids because They're they're not getting paid to so we go visit the kids.

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Mm -hmm. Okay Well, that's good So So I just since waste mentioned the intro are you

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Jewish by any chance no But you probably worked with a lot of Jewish a lot of Jewish lawyers, right?

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Actually, no because well actually a few a few but not very many but I did not

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I was not a litigator I was for an insurance company. Okay, and I worked for a

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Christian insurance company our Our product was sold to churches, you know that the company's insured churches

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Okay. Yes that explains it. Yeah, I Have what three or four lawyers in the family so Some of the comments we have really quickly

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John asked Andrew. I would love for you to send me the audio of the no babies quote

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John email me so I don't forget but I will gladly send that to you KT said DC is a dangerous place, you know,

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I disagree Been there several times since kovat probably like four times. It's probably my fifth since kovat

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I've walked around all the all over the place. I don't find it to be dangerous at all but then again,

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I'm strange so Well, let's get into so the background of this video and I don't you you were

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You were I think had someone on your Started when I invited

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Joe Ensley to be on my channel and I did an interview with Joe Ensley and then

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Leighton flowers Saw the video and he did a response to the conversation and then

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I did a response to Leighton flowers response So, let me guess

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And you could tell me see if I'm we're gonna be right here You probably did like your original video might have been like 20 minutes and Leighton did like a three -hour response

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No, the original conversation was an hour I always I generally hold my live streams to one hour and I don't remember how long his video was but I I don't remember it being that long

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Yeah, I I'm sure it was longer than yours It's that's Leighton's a

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Leighton is known for so so the the topic that you were discussing was

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God's sovereignty and human responsibility you were making a case off of Really some of Leighton's arguments, so I didn't go back to watch the the original

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And I don't know who the gentleman was that that you originally had but I You know your response was really arguing against Christianity based on Really on Leighton's arguments.

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Mm -hmm. And so Instead of for folks, you know, don't having to go and watch that to understand this.

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Let me start by Giving you an opportunity to explain, you know your views on on God's sovereignty human responsibility

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Because as I told you in the initial email, I think I can answer that question Without getting to a position where we deny

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God I actually think it would require him you would disagree with me. That'd be fine And I should be honest and say

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I've we beforehand we've we both Acknowledged we know virtually nothing of each other

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I watched that one video with Leighton flowers and then for folks who were on apologetics live last week we had

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Bill in Bill knows Kelly and myself and Ended up sending me some videos of another mutual friend, which is

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Eric Hernandez who you did a And I didn't know the order whether it was his book on in the atheist

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Christian book club that started it And then you and Bill interviewed him and then there was some back -and -forth where he did a response video or you did a response video

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He did a response video and I let Kelly know that Eric is a friend of mine. I I like him a lot, but My demeanor and his demeanor will be a little bit different We're just a very deep he's we debate but we debate differently so So so why don't you give folks so that they understand a little bit about what your view is

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With that and because I would like to start there and if we have time later Maybe we could we could talk more about what you know

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You say used to be a Christian and you know what brought you out of it But we could talk about that maybe after if there's time

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Okay, well Joe Ensley is a Calvinist and his position on God's sovereignty is that there is limited atonement and that God chooses even before we exist as to who will be saved and who will not be saved and my argument against Joe was that If there is a

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God that determines Who is going to be saved and who is not going to be saved?

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How can man have any kind of moral responsibility to this God? because This God determined everything that you were going to do before you even existed and Joe's response was well,

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I actually I'm sorry. I don't really remember what Joe's response was and Leighton was saying that I was spot -on in finding that Joe's Theology was was lacking

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That my biggest argument against Joe was that if humans are

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Predestined to hell Then God is is is a moral monster in that he creates people

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For the purpose of sending them to eternal torture and One of the most telling parts of the video was when

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I asked him How would you feel knowing that God has selected your own children?

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for an eternal destination in hell and his response was well, I'd be fine with that and And I told him

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Okay, I get that but please don't ever let your children see this video and he could not understand why

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I told him that He could not understand that. I said it would be emotionally scarring to your children to hear that their dad is fine with them being tortured for eternity and and Leighton said

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I was spot -on with that and and I Don't remember exactly what point he made.

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I'm sorry I should have reviewed the video before I came on but I wasn't sure exactly where you were going to go with this

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And so I didn't watch the video again, and I don't remember what his response was. That's okay

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The thing here and for folks who may be new to this channel to this show

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I like to let our guests speak and I don't People are always like why do you let why do you let them speak so much?

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I have a it's my show I could do all next week. I could correct it if I wanted to okay, so And I don't expect you to have you know, it's we're not looking

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I'm not gonna look to be like, oh, well, you're not prepared then no, so but but the point is your your view is would be and like summarize it see if I can capture it, right your your view of Calvinism and and actually let me ask this up front when you

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Claimed you were a Christian were you in more of a Calvinist type camp or a non Calvinist?

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I don't say Calvinist Arminian because I don't know anyone that actually holds to Arminian ism It's usually they're either

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Calvinist or anti Calvinist or not sure in between The answer to your question is yes

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And the reason the answer to your question is yes is because when I was okay

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I was saved when I was 16. I started going to church when I was 16 and I you know, the first church

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I went to was an evangelical free church and then When I married my husband, he was active -duty army.

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We were moving all the time there are no evangelical free churches in the south and his first posting was in Texas and so We started going to a

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Baptist Church But then we actually helped found an evangelical free church in Killeen, Texas, although that church is no longer there and When I was in the e -free church and when

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I was in and then after a couple moves after that, you know We were we were back into Baptist churches. I Was not a

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Calvinist at that time. Then we went to Fort Wayne, Indiana. We were there for about 22 years and I was in an evangelical

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Mennonite Church and that also was Was not a

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Calvinist Church, but my closest friend in that church was converted to Calvinism and started going to a

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Calvinist Church and She convinced us that Calvinism was the was the more biblical interpretation and so we left the

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Mennonite Church and went to the Calvinist Church and At that point I became I I did become

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Calvinist and I did believe in the in the you know the five points of Calvinism okay, and so but you you you

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Seem to and you'll correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to Attribute Calvinism with the terminism.

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Would that be fair? Yes Because Leighton would do do the same thing

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And so the in this is very common with folks with and you know We were talking before the show and you asked you you assumed since I'm friends with Leighton I think you assumed

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I wasn't a Calvinist And then you assumed when I said well Leighton, I don't agree.

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You were assumed. I was a Calvinist I said well, I don't really don't I don't say I'm either one because I never know what people mean by that Right, and so I said by Leighton's definition.

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I wouldn't be a Calvinist, right? And people have tried to correct Leighton on his view of Calvinism, but the the idea though that many would would

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Brussels with is the idea of determinism. There's a difference So let me ask if I could ask some questions.

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Do you do you believe that from a from your understanding of Calvinism not? You know because I want it

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I want to first just make sure I understand your your positions your understandings in your understandings of what

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Calvinism is Would you believe that God is the determines Everything or just salvation

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Okay, the way it was taught to me in church was that he determined salvation. He does not determine everything but on the other hand

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They also spoke out of the other side of the mouth their mouths and said that he does determine everything

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John Piper was the champion of my pastor and My pastor practically worshipped

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John Piper and if you've ever seen it there is an article where John Piper says If a person is raped

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God determined that the rapist would commit this rape and That is the

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Calvinism that I was taught that that Everything that happens is

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God's will and even if God didn't specifically tell the rapist. Okay, go rape that person

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It was his will that that happen Okay, and do you believe that People have

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Let me rephrase this in in your understanding of Calvinism because I think you'd have a different view today

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So in your understanding of Calvinism do you did you believe or do you believe that Calvinist would have a view that people have a a

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Will that they can they can have? You know more make moral choices and and you struggle with the question because it is a difficult question and it's a question that I wrestled with as a

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Calvinist as well is is what kind of free will do we have and The way my pastor explained it to me was that we do make our own moral choices

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But even though we are free to make those choices Those choices were also willed by God Okay, I don't think that makes any sense anymore

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But at the time I accepted it and I accepted it as one of these things that well after we die

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We'll get to ask God and he'll make it all make sense Okay. Well, I I'm hoping that by the end of this show

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I can help it make sense And we don't have to wait till you die We will see

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So so what is so then with your views today because I know I did pick up your discussion with Eric Hernandez the issue came up there about You know

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Moral choices things like that. You brought up free will and and I I just I do my struggle in the precision was

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Because I don't use the word free will it's a it was on you used in the episode you did with I'll get to maybe later if you want why

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I don't use that term and I use the term will because I think there's a difference but It came up there.

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So what would be your view? What you because you were using it? you're using the issue of God's sovereignty human responsibility as an argument against God and You you did that in the response video to to Leighton You did it with Eric and by the way,

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Eric would also Eric and used to work for Leighton for They would

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They wouldn't they would agree with their dislike for Calvinism even though They would have very different reasons

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Eric is if folks that don't know where can Eric Hernandez is a philosopher. I mean, that's his background

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You experienced that when you had your discussion with him and he's very he's very good with his philosophy and It's a strong suit of his but the that gets you he would be for folks who understand the term

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He'd be what we'd refer to as a Molinist And so the Molinist their their way of and trying to answer the dilemma

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What they see as a dilemma of God's sovereignty human responsibility their way of answering it is that God looks through a tunnel of time

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Or sorry that God God looks at all the different possible worlds that could be created and he chooses one and that's the one

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So the one he chooses is one where people made their free choice And Eric and I we're planning

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I plan to be out in Dallas to do a debate with him On that very topic of Molinism.

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We've done it on this show before Informal we're gonna do a formal one. So back to the question for you

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Kelly is What is your? Your view of God's sovereignty human responsibility you make an argument

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To basically argue that that proves God doesn't exist Okay, so if you could make that argument sure

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The the easiest way to explain it is with Adam and Eve Okay Before Adam and Eve existed

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God knew they would fall, correct You are you're asking me?

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So I would say well if if God is omniscient he has to and I would say he's omniscient

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Okay So if God knows this is going to happen before he even creates

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Adam and Eve The moment that he creates them they cannot help but fall

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They cannot choose to do other than what God knew before they existed they would do

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Okay, and so if God creates them and they cannot choose to not fall, you know, they have to fall because They were created to do that Then how can they be morally responsible for doing what they were created to do?

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Okay, so you asking that as a question or is that that that's really my position is that you know that that there can be no moral responsibility if there is a if there is an omnipotent

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God That is creating you knowing before you do anything everything that you're going to do okay, so so You've laid out two possibilities, right either either

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God is is Omniscient knows everything Yep, or he's not good.

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Would that be fair to say? Because he's forcing people to to do evil.

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I wouldn't say forcing them to do evil as much as Determining what they are going to do.

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Okay You know, I I hear so many people talking about free will that you know

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Free will but how can he possibly give someone free will if he's if he knew what they were going to do even before they existed

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Well, that's a good question I Mean I can answer it But I want to make sure that I I want to give you the time to explain your your views thoroughly

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Unless you you want to you want me to answer some of those but um, I think it'd be easier if you go ahead and answer because If I tried

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Well, I I'm not sure I would go in the right direction if I try to just just keep going.

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Okay, so so there is Right. So in logic we talk about a fallacy of the excluded middle and I don't want to make sure we don't fall into That because there's a third option here

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Okay So one thing that you and I are both limited in is our knowledge, right?

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We we learn things We don't know everything This is something that wouldn't be for God.

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God doesn't learn anything. He doesn't learn learning being that you observe and gain information

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God doesn't do that. He knows You and I cannot even conceive of what that's like.

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We can't conceive of Omniscience just knowing everything he would also he's also outside of time and We can't comprehend that either we're limited because you and I are bound by time we're we are creatures that are

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Chronological in our thinking in our actions and so because of that we tend to attribute that to God and Therefore when we look at it with the fact that he's both omniscient knows all things he's

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He's Outside of time the only way I can and this may be a poor illustration

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But it's the only way that makes sense to me is that to God everything would be an eternal now so so Right now

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Adam and Eve are in the garden You and I are having this conversation. Jesus is on the cross Abraham's offering

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Isaac. It's all the same moment to him that's the only way I can conceive of what a

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Being outside of time would be Does that at least make sense? Mm -hmm, okay

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So I'm gonna I'm gonna rely on some of your and actually a question I did have totally unrelated, but I want to get back.

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So you said you got say you became a Christian at 16 What were you before out of curiosity?

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Were you raised in a Christian home or agnostic you okay, so you're agnostic

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Okay, so I'll be curious may later a second hour I'll ask what what brought you from that so But from your your upbringing there when you were in church

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Let me ask this question Who wrote the book of Romans? Paul okay, is

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That really the answer Who really wrote the book of Romans from your training in in churches?

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Well, they would say that that it's the Word of God correct and yeah, I've got a lot of problems with that.

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But anyway, I get it, but I want I want to lay down the argument to see if this is helpful for you though, at least so What we would there's a doctrine that we have when it comes to how we got the

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Bible called the doctrine of superintending Doctrine superintending with in the case of Romans with Paul would say that God wrote

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Romans through Paul in other words Paul chooses the words he wants to use Because his style is very different than say

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John style or Moses or Peter, right? They all have a different style.

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They all chose words. You can see there's certain words that Luke as a physician uses that Matthew as a fisherman isn't going to use right and we see word choices that each of the writers like to use

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So we could see that they chose their words and yet what we would say is that God worked through them

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So even the words that they chose were exactly as God intended it to be. Does that at least make sense to you?

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Well, it makes sense in the sense that I understand that that's your position it does not make sense in the sense that Okay Christians claim that the

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Bible is the Word of God and that it is inspired But what one major problem with that inspiration idea is

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It's entirely hung on a single verse from 2nd Timothy a book. That's a forgery we don't even know who wrote it, but whoever did wrote write it claimed to be

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Paul and So we're getting the word of a liar and from that we're hanging the entire inspiration of God on this this this single verse and Then Even if it is inspired, what does inspiration mean?

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Inspiration can mean a lot of things, you know If I'm inspired to write something it could just simply mean that you know,

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I saw something pretty and I thought oh, that's pretty I'm gonna write about it. Yeah that that can be inspiration or if the inspiration is

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Supervisory where God is checking to make sure all of the details are correct That would make it more the

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Word of God But I really feel like Christians want to have their cake and eat it, too They want the

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Bible to be the Word of God where God has supervised this to the point where this is the Word of God But on the other hand

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God has not supervised it to that point Where people are choosing their own words and saying their own things.

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And so when the Bible has errors in it Um, they can say well that was just a scribal error or that was just a that was just an exaggeration on the part of the writer or that was just You know an embellishment on the part of the author

31:45

Well, if if God is the actual author and God is perfect God should be at least making sure his book that is the revelation of himself is perfect and it's not perfect There's all kinds of errors in the

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Bible okay, so drew you you marked a question that I think a lot of folks are asking so why don't you bring that up and So Rob says forgery, how do you know and I'm reading

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Bart Ehrman's book forged There's a great deal of scholarship in that book

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So yeah, the thing about Bart Ehrman though is Bart Ehrman has been disproven by several people like dr

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James White Michael Kruger Dan Wallace He's been disproven by a number of people.

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So if we can't just rely on one man like Bart Ehrman who? Scholarship behind him.

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Like I said, if you read the book, you'll see sure. Yeah. I mean Bart Ehrman. He is very smart guy I mean, he was

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Bruce Metzger's last PhD student He's actually he's done a lot of work with Bruce Metzger and writing books in the field of textual criticism

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The problem is is once he became an apostate He started and started writing his books against Christianity.

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It wasn't long before Biblical scholars like Dan Wallace and and Michael Kruger Actually refuted him so I The view that the pastoral letters are not written by Paul is

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Not just the opinion of Bart Ehrman. That is the consensus of textual critics well

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I don't know that I would say it's the consensus, but I know that written by at least three different authors

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But I would say that too if they got my point out there Well, see but here'd be a thing

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I would I would contend that Since Peter recognizes that what Paul wrote was scripture

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I'm gonna take that the fact that early century believe early century people recognized what was scripture so the the issue is

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Though people want to say that it he didn't write it Whether it's Romans first Timothy, whichever

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We know that the that early believers recognized it immediately as being scripture and and Paul wrote other books

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He wrote two other letters to I believe two letters to Corinth. Some people think one They weren't scripture

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Because is so, you know Peter would would would recognize just so folks understand in 2nd

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Peter 3 In verse 15, I'll start in 14 just for context

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Therefore beloved since since you look for these things be diligent to be found in him in peace spotless and blameless and and in regard to Patience of our

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Lord and salvation just as also our beloved Paul according to the wisdom

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Given to you wrote to you And so he he will recognize as Paul wrote these things

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He'll he will end up calling them scripture. Okay. He didn't

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I didn't hear him calling that driver 16 as as Also in all his letters speaking to them of these things in which are some of the hard to understand

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That's what I was I was gonna lead up to that Peter recognizes Paul says that these things are kind of hard to understand

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So Peter didn't quite get it Paul being a scholar Peter being a fisherman you might understand it.

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So I'll pick up at verse 16 then with so I'm sorry That's what I was gonna give a little in a log there

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But so as also in his letters speaking in them of these things in which some things are hard to understand which the untaught and unstable distort as They also do the rest of the scriptures to their own destruction

35:45

So he's putting Paul's letters Paul's writing on on par with scripture calling it scripture and saying that There are people who are untaught that that distort them

35:56

Okay, well first of all, I don't think Peter wrote that okay, and One of the reasons is

36:06

And in this this does come from Bart Ehrman again is that he said in his study of first century

36:13

Galilee there's no record of any school being there and it is extremely unlikely that Fishermen in Galilee would have been educated and sufficiently educated to write in the style of Greek that the

36:28

New Testament is written in and so he finds it extremely Unlikely that that Peter could even write let alone write in this kind of a style

36:38

See the thing is is and I noticed a lot of assumptions that you're making right and so when we

36:48

When we look at it to to base it on someone like Bart Ehrman who is is very clearly, you know

36:57

Stating that he's kind of got an axe to grind In fact, I disagree with that statement

37:03

Well, I mean when I listen to him talk, he just he says he doesn't have an axe to grind

37:09

He's he studied this for 40 years and he's sharing what he studied and he said, you know

37:14

If people want to believe it, that's that's up to them. He's he's not out to try to destroy people's beliefs

37:21

Well, but in his so in his book misquoting Jesus the first edition they they it became a

37:27

New York Times bestseller, he wrote a print copy of soft copy Publishers want to make more money get it.

37:35

So he added an epilogue and in the first printing of that epilogue He said something that he pulled out because it was it was true

37:43

But it was being used by Christians to point out the truth And what he said was that in all of the textual variances that we have they don't affect a single

37:53

Christian doctrine. That's true But that was that was pulled out

37:58

They quickly did a second printing and it was pulled out because of the fact that it was Hurting the argument to be made and the argument then was the purpose, right?

38:09

so that would say that there is an axe to grind there is he's got a purpose in in why he's writing what he wrote because If you study

38:15

Bart when Bart Ehrman writes at a scholarly level, I tell people when when he writes a scholarly level and cites his work

38:21

He's he's usually pretty good when he writes to the masses he will say things that are true or partially true and then put them with other things that are partially true and then

38:33

Give it a meaning that people read into it, but both the individual things are true It's just he puts them together in a different order that gives it a different meaning to the reader and And to someone that doesn't study textual criticism.

38:45

They go. Oh, yeah, this is this is this is clear And it is clear what he's trying to point out.

38:51

It's just I think not completely truthful on what basis Do you think the

38:56

Bible to be the Word of God? well, I would think it to be the Word of God because first off because God's not a liar and God has has given it.

39:07

How do you know that? Well, I so I would say that we all know that God has spoken.

39:14

I Would say it every time Well, I would say that every human being knows that God exists.

39:19

I don't know that Well, God would disagree with you Well, I would

39:25

I mean I would I think you do because you hold to a standard of morality

39:32

When you're I mean earlier you were talking about things like morals so you hold to a standard of morality

39:37

The problem is in an atheistic worldview You have to have an object. You even have to have an objective standard of morality.

39:45

Otherwise, why personal preference? No, you know, that's not true. Okay, so where did

39:50

I go? And I can tell you it's cold and I don't need an objective standard of more of cold to tell you that it's cold outside Although actually right now it's not it's hot

40:00

Yeah And just because I go outside and say it's cold that doesn't mean that's my personal preference that it'd be cold

40:11

Well, but but here would be a thing So I'm gonna use that example for fun now because you're gonna say it's cold

40:17

But for someone like me who does a cold plunge every day, I'm gonna walk out and go it's not cold at all.

40:23

Exactly Exactly what we see in this world. There is no single standard of morality

40:29

What is moral now, there are some things that are universal but those are the exception for most things people have disagreements about morality

40:38

Look at abortion people do not agree on the morality of abortion if there is one moral standard

40:44

Why is it that we have disagreements? I think we can agree on that abortion is wrong.

40:53

And I think I could probably convince you that But but let me let me ask this question, I know drew you wanted to ask the the the standard question and I get it

41:03

So that way she I think she's she Kelly's ready for that but if What I'm curious because you said just because you said son

41:13

I haven't heard people will say when we get on to this issue when when denying

41:18

God you said there are some universal Issues of morality, what would right and those are evolutionary like murder if you murder people people die that is

41:34

What's the word I can't think of the word at the moment, but it's it's against our

41:41

Evolutionary instincts our evolutionary instincts are to survive and to perpetuate the species and if we are murdering one another

41:49

That is in violation of that and that's why we have developed through evolution a standard of Not murdering one another of thinking that murder is wrong

42:01

Because this helps to perpetuate the species Okay, and the same is true of rape, you know

42:07

Wait when rape is allowed to go on that is not healthy for society and that which is healthy and that which

42:16

Perpetuates our species are things that have developed with us Evolutionaries of our morality and we can see this not only in humans, but we see this in animals as well animals have an a system of morality you'll see a mother bear

42:33

Punish her bear cub for being unruly. You'll see a dog I saw a video clip of a dog once where this this man was teasing a small dog with a with a treat you know offering it to the dog and as soon as the dog would go for he'd pull it back and a bigger dog came up And pushed the man's hand down to give the treat to the dog because the dog knew that what the man was doing was wrong

42:59

Morality is not something that is God given to humans. It's developed through evolution and animals have it too

43:07

It's not to the same level because they don't have the same Thought capacity that we do.

43:12

All right, so you say murder rape what any others that you'd think would be universal? I I don't want to be pinned down to say

43:23

No, I'm and and I I hope you don't feel like I'm trying to pin you down I mean on this show, we we don't typically do that with folks unless they start acting that way toward us

43:33

I would say the things that are universal are the things that tend to be detrimental to the health and welfare of society

43:41

Okay, so Now you say it's in drew. I know you want to get to the standard.

43:48

I get it, but I'm really I want to go to this road a little bit if we can you're saying murder

43:57

You're saying that this is evolutionary Yet we do see we do see animals that eat their own children we see animals that You know we see in evolution humans that murder each other

44:10

Yeah, we see just because we know that it's wrong doesn't mean we don't do it. Okay, so If in evolution if we're gonna learn from this,

44:20

I mean evolution is Basically survival of the fittest is gonna be the the most fit wins so there wouldn't be anything wrong with with murdering

44:27

Well, that's not the way survival of the fittest works survival of the fittest doesn't mean

44:33

Whichever is the strongest wins survival of the fittest means that which is best able to perpetuate the species and If that which is best able to perpetuate the species is getting along and working together

44:47

Then that is what is the fittest and and who determines what's best?

44:55

Nature I mean, you know what it's not best is in the sense of of of a preference or or a hierarchy

45:04

It's because what what works best for perpetuating a species can be different at different times based on the conditions

45:12

For example, you know take a fox You know a red fox will survive better in the forest and a silver fox will survive better in the tundra

45:21

And so if if foxes that are in the forest are being forced north and out of the forest and into the tundra

45:27

You'll find that the lighter colored ones are the ones that survive and and white white then becomes the fittest

45:34

Whereas when they were in the forest red was the fittest and so there is no one standard that we can say

45:41

That is the fittest that is the best but see now Would you agree that we're not talking morality there?

45:47

Agree, but that's just an easier way to look at it Yeah, and morality is the same a oh take slavery.

45:54

For example, you know, there was a time when slavery was considered morally acceptable and We've since realized that no this this this is not good

46:04

This is not helpful to society. And so we've gotten rid of it. We've abolished it Well, I don't think that that is an evolutionary change by any

46:13

Any stretch of the imagination, but that is one example of how our morals evolve as we come to understand

46:21

And learn to be more empathetic with one another and why would you say slavery would be wrong?

46:27

Because it's not healthy. It's it's it's unhealthy for the slave.

46:33

It's it's not It's not It doesn't allow the the enslaved person to Develop themselves their their their their to their potential and it actually is even detrimental to the slave owner as well because the slave owner learns to be cruel and Does not learn to have the human empathy that is is better for bringing about a more

47:02

A more fit and healthy society. Have you ever read the book 12 years of slave? I'm not sure

47:12

My son was given a copy and I can't remember if I read it or if I only saw the movie Yeah. Oh, I didn't know there was a movie.

47:18

Okay. So Solomon who is it? Huh? It's pretty good Drew are you are you shocked that I didn't know it was a movie?

47:26

I mean, you're you don't really watch a lot of movies. So you don't know a lot of pop pop culture

47:34

Okay, so in in the book solomon who is he's he was a musician he's down by dc gets kidnapped he's sold as a slave uh

47:42

Even he admits that had he in with with his first owner who was a christian

47:48

He said had he only lived under that He wouldn't have thought slavery was bad

47:54

That that's for the admission from a slave so so what makes slavery wrong

48:00

I I just told you it is not It does not allow the enslaved person to develop their potential

48:08

It does not allow the person who is enslaving them to understand and empathize with and Give dignity to the enslaved person

48:19

It it simply is not Emotionally or even financially healthy for society.

48:25

Okay now and and so the way The way slave what we think of slavery

48:31

Uh, I mean, we we I we we definitely have slavery today in a in a bad sense when we look at human trafficking uh, there is other parts of the world that still has slavery in the economic sense, but the the idea of slavery

48:45

Is to help those who can't take care of themselves who can't provide for themselves The the master would have responsibility

48:52

To care for them. So what would be wrong with that? I think you're deluded if you think that well, that's 1980s, uh time, uh, japan

49:01

That's how they function the the government the company owned everything the people would work for the company And they they tried to make the company do well because they they benefited if the company did well

49:13

And people were devastated by that system People were killed people were thrown out and if the if the if the man died in the you know

49:21

In the mine and his and his family owed money to the company store The wife and the children were just thrown out on their asses.

49:28

It was a terrible system It caused great harm and the only people who benefited from was with the was the robber barons

49:36

Well, there weren't robber barons in japan Okay. Well, I I was I was translating it to A system very similar in the united states that that I know about I don't know about the system in japan

49:48

Would you would you say that slavery is wrong because it's wrong to say you own another human being?

49:55

Yes So would you is that an is that an evil would you say? Yes Would that be would you say that's in one of the absolute?

50:05

Or or sorry universal. Um That i'm not sure of okay, and the reason i'm not sure of that is because Even though I see it this that way

50:16

I realize that people have not always seen it that way And I don't know enough about philosophy

50:24

To know how things become universal Has it always been universal? I I just don't know

50:29

Yeah, and and I would say the fact that so the fact that there's murders that go on today make it clear that It's not universal if we're going to say it's evolutionary, but the reason

50:40

I agree Why? There's people that think there's nothing wrong with with killing or raping other people

50:46

I don't think there's anyone who does that and doesn't think it's wrong unless They are a psychopath

50:53

And if they are mentally deficient And they don't realize that it's wrong because of mental deficiency

51:02

That doesn't change the morality of it Uh It's quite commonplace in the middle east

51:09

So it's it's it we we don't want to It's commonplace in the middle east for people to murder and think that that's okay.

51:16

Yeah. Yeah rape. Yes Or throw homosexuals from the tops of roofs. Yeah So we don't we can't assume that just because our culture does thinks it's wrong that it's universal

51:27

But but the reason I was asking about the the the slavery you brought up the issue of abortion

51:32

And that is the same issue I mean Abortion is an ownership issue. I mean, what's the difference between saying this is my body and this is my property

51:45

My body is not property You're you're owning another human being separate dna

51:51

Separate blood type separate gender. It's it's a it's another person I don't agree that it's a person until it's born

52:01

So, I mean what what what does a baby what do you do when a baby is born To record that birth and to let people know that the baby exists

52:11

You issue a birth certificate Birth certificate does not exist until the baby exists

52:17

When when we measure a child's age When do we measure it from the time it was conceived or the time it was born the time it was born?

52:23

Only because we want to take a tax benefit We can't take a tax benefit on a child that has not been born

52:31

And so it is not a baby. It is not recognized as a human being until it is born. So I i'm giving scientific arguments

52:39

But the the issue is what i'm giving you legal arguments You're getting well the issue though is with your can you determine?

52:48

Up until you know in less than the last say 50 years. Could you determine the conception date?

52:54

the the only date we would be able to use is the is the birth date because We can't we don't know we can't see inside of a womb to know

53:04

When the conception had now nowadays we can nowadays the technology They can go back and they're pretty good at figuring out conception um but The back say less than 50 years ago, could they do something like that?

53:20

Could they could they determine anything other than the birth date? I don't think it really matters because when this issue has been brought before the legislature even in the last two years

53:32

And women have argued that they should be allowed to collect uh welfare benefits for an unborn um child

53:41

They were told no And you know We have that technology now and women are still being told no

53:49

So if if if the the answer of the legislature is no this, you know, this is not a child

53:54

You cannot have welfare benefits You know for for whatever it is that's inside your body then.

54:01

No, it's not a child The government does provide certain things for women who have unborn who are pregnant with unborn children

54:10

They provide things like wick where you can go to the store and you can get necessities that you need

54:15

And you don't have to pay for it. You give them the wick voucher and then you get your food So they do provide in a sense.

54:22

Um uh a type of welfare for them they provide that for the pregnant woman who is who is who is

54:29

Now having greater needs because of of her being pregnant Right. Yeah, they still provide it though So she's not left

54:37

Someone Sorry, sorry What happens if you kill a pregnant woman? I mean why why you're because you're trying to make the legal case, but there is legal

54:46

You know precedent For the fact that if you harm someone you you you harm a woman who is pregnant and they lose a child

54:55

She can sue for that a child So so if you're making the legal argument

55:02

There's no question that it's a mixed message Yeah, and and so i'm i'm looking at it and saying what is in the womb and and for someone to say this

55:11

Person in my womb is my body They're feeding off me there and and I don't know if you've you know

55:17

I've seen plenty of women outside of abortion clinics that clearly know it is a child in the in their womb

55:23

Because they they voice it to the christians that are out there, you know Offering adoption and things like that I've seen women go in and say i'm gonna kill my child.

55:32

They know what it is Um, I would argue that if you're going to say slavery is wrong because of the ownership aspect

55:40

Uh, that's the same argument. I make why abortion is wrong is you can't own another human being

55:48

You know And and so abortion isn't ownership, you know when when I was pregnant

55:54

I didn't own what was in my womb It was just a part of me. I mean,

55:59

I don't own my arm. It's just a part of me Well, but you that part of you your arm contains the same dna same blood type that would be the same but The person inside of the womb has a completely different dna.

56:15

It's a completely different person from the point of conception Right could even be a different gender

56:21

So you you have that as a person So when when someone says well, this is my body

56:28

I can do with it, whatever I want This is now that an ownership issue they're saying

56:34

I have just as in in slavery And when you think when we think of slavery, we often think of the african slave trade

56:41

There's a lot of different versions of slavery throughout throughout the centuries but When we think of it, we often think of in at least in america the the african slave trade and we think of the worst of okay, but People don't always go to the worst ends

56:57

But there are those that do because well absolute power corrupts right we could probably agree with that but the the point being is

57:06

Slavery is the argument that this person's not human this person Doesn't count.

57:12

I have the right to own them. They're nothing more than property to me so what is the difference between saying this is my property or this is my body

57:22

Because my body is part of me. It's not my property I don't own my body.

57:27

It's just me. It's it's who I am But it's not your body because it's another human being if if it's living inside of me and dependent on me for its for its

57:39

Sustenance because it's inside of me then then it is part of me I think we're going to disagree on that Yeah, no, but I that would be and I think so.

57:51

I know drew you wanted to we still have to get back to the god sovereignty Yeah, we're gonna go a little over the first time so poor chuck is sitting in backstage going

57:59

Hey, I got a question. I want to ask But no, I I did have a question. Um And it pertains to when

58:06

I asked you if slavery was if you would say slavery was evil And you affirmed you said that is evil.

58:13

Um richard dawkins And rivers out of eden. He speaks on good and evil

58:20

And he says there is no such thing as good or evil there is only blind and pitiless indifference so at so when we're talking about good and evil as an atheist, uh, my question to you is

58:33

So what? Why should we if is richard dawkins correct or are you correct?

58:39

in in your presumption, uh, or your assumptions of the universe and morality, uh, because you say there is no

58:46

Objective standard of morality, but then you bring arguments of things that are in fact objectively evil

58:59

Okay, I I muted myself because I wanted to look up the rest of that quote as I i've heard that quote before And i've seen that quote when it is in context

59:10

And it doesn't mean what you're claiming it to say When it is in context you want me to finish bringing up the rest of the context?

59:17

He's talking about suffering Right, he's talking about suffering the total amount of suffering per year in the natural world is beyond all decent contemplation

59:26

Right during the minute that it takes, uh me to compose this sentence Thousands of animals are being eaten alive.

59:33

Many others are running For their lives whimpering in fear others are slowly being devoured from within by rasping parasites thousands of all kinds

59:44

Are dying of starvation thirst and disease It must be so if there ever is a time of plenty

59:52

This very fact will automatically lead to an increase in the population until the natural state of starvation

59:58

And misery is restored in a universe of electrons and selfish genes uh blind physical forces and genetic replication

01:00:09

Some people are going to get hurt Other people are going to get lucky

01:00:15

If you won't find any rhyme or reason in it You and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it nor any justice

01:00:24

The universe that we observe has precisely the properties. We should expect if there is at bottom

01:00:31

No design, no purpose. No evil. No good nothing, but blind pitiless indifference, right?

01:00:38

and and the point that he's making is that The world that we see around us

01:00:44

Is exactly what one would expect if there is no god that is guiding it if there was a god that was guiding it and was

01:00:52

Was was imposing its will on it. This is not what we expect to find but this is what we find and and he uses this to support the the theory the the idea that That there is no god guiding any of these processes.

01:01:07

Yeah, but if If If we see so much right because this he's speaking from an atheistic world view

01:01:16

So he's saying god doesn't exist because all these things happen in the world, right? You're saying god doesn't exist.

01:01:23

Therefore. All these things are happening in the world, right? Yeah, and because you say god doesn't exist

01:01:31

Therefore there is no such thing as good. There is no such thing as evil There is nothing but blind pitiless indifference

01:01:38

So I so I ask if we see all these things going in on in the world and it proves that there is no god

01:01:45

My question still remains So what about morality? I I I don't know what you're asking

01:01:55

So what about morality? Yeah, what what's your question about morality? Yeah, are you saying that morality then?

01:02:02

Can't exist i'm saying How do you justify morality there's if all these things are going on like richard dawkins says and as a result of their

01:02:15

Being no god Then who cares about morality? There is no such anyone that has empathy cares about morality.

01:02:22

Yeah, but who defines what empathy is and why must we show it? humans do but but why hitler's view of empathy was to get rid of races that weren't as Evolutionarily and we do have some people that are deficient.

01:02:36

Yeah, so was he right or was he wrong and who determined that? The full answer is

01:02:45

I don't know. I I should say that you know, the the real answer is I don't know You know, I I don't know exactly how morality is determined.

01:02:53

I do know it is something that evolves I do know it is something that develops over time

01:02:58

Hell we used to have gladiator games and people didn't have a moral problem with people killing each other for sport

01:03:04

And now we find that appalling we find it so appalling that in football we even have rules to help keep people from getting injured

01:03:11

You know, so obviously this is something that develops over time. How does that happen? I don't know.

01:03:16

I don't know okay, and Let me just stop for one second to say this is I want folks to pick up on this

01:03:22

Because one of the things kelly that we do here is we're not just doing apologetics. We're also training in it uh,

01:03:27

I want folks to recognize what what kelly just said there because I want you to to see us for those who are christians

01:03:34

To see when when you have someone who's disagreeing with you, but being honest and saying I don't know Okay Because on both sides there are people who when they're when they feel that pressure that like kelly's having to answer his question there's a a

01:03:51

Temptation of people to make things up or say something That they're just pulling out of thin air and they're making it up as they go

01:03:59

Okay So I point this out because when we do apologetics Know what you know and know what you don't know

01:04:06

Right. How do I start this show every week? I started by saying I can answer any question anyone has about god in the bible and that's true

01:04:15

Because when you ask me a tough question, I go. I don't know. That's actually an answer. You may not like the answer

01:04:20

But it's an answer, right? So we have to recognize kelly's actually answering the question honestly

01:04:29

And so I i'm i'm pointing that out to say we have to recognize when someone's actually giving an answer

01:04:34

Even if we don't like the answer It is an answer. I mean people do that all the time to me and be like I give an answer like well

01:04:40

You're not answering me. No, you just don't like the answer because it didn't fit with your narrative, right? so i'm recognizing kelly gave an answer right so Sorry, just wanted to oh

01:04:50

I I got to bring this one up. Sorry. I can't help it I don't know who this is, but keith carpenter says has she not watched mma?

01:04:57

No, I have not watched mma so That is not my thing so if if keith, uh watches football, uh, actually football is far more dangerous than mma

01:05:11

And the studies have shown it why because there's there's doctors and a referee watching two people

01:05:18

And I mean they stop it When when things and there there will be doctor stoppages Uh of many of the the challenges most people don't understand um

01:05:29

Don't do not understand with when it comes to uh, mma there's okay. There's two two Sorry, i'm i'm a practitioner.

01:05:36

So I have a different view of mma than than those who like the violence I don't like the violence but as someone who who

01:05:44

Has a background in both karate and jiu -jitsu i'm looking for technique These are people that are the top of their their game and so there's subtle things

01:05:52

And when I watch with guys who have more experience than me, they'll be like, oh that's over And i'm like it takes me another second to go.

01:05:58

Oh, oh, I didn't see that right away That's what you're picking up on. So yeah, actually mma is safer than football.

01:06:05

Sorry soapbox. I'll get off. All right So so kelly, um or drew were you were you done with with that Yeah, I I do want to say um

01:06:19

Kelly, thank you at least for your honesty. Um in answering that question um, the only the only other thing

01:06:25

I would I would add on top of that was uh, You know when after you said, I don't know um you then followed that up with a uh definitive knowledge claim that said

01:06:37

I do know it comes from evolution, right so your presupposing

01:06:44

Evolution to prove your point um now you would You would say if we

01:06:51

Presuppose the bible to be the word of god to prove our point You would have you'd probably have a problem with that But at the same time when you say that i'm presupposing evolution, do you mean i'm presupposing that evolution actually happens?

01:07:04

Yes, that that evolution is true evolution is true. I mean It's it's so well attested.

01:07:12

It is so well So well recognized by the scientific community

01:07:17

In terms of now in the process of declaring it to be a scientific law in in terms of the origins of the universe

01:07:25

No, because the origins of the universe have nothing to do with evolution evolution didn't start until their until life existed

01:07:31

But specifically with this because I look Everyone believes in evolution It's just how we define it, right?

01:07:38

Because yeah, we change every day Unfortunately, right we look in the mirror and go. Oh, yeah,

01:07:43

I don't look like I did when I was in my 20s, but So obviously moves like that either.

01:07:49

Yeah We watch our grandkids move around and go oh, yeah,

01:07:55

I wish I wish I had that energy now But it's but where i'm seeing it where you're saying there's evolutionary there's morality

01:08:06

That comes about by evolution And i'm not necessarily talking about biological evolution um, you know

01:08:16

Just as people evolve morals evolve how that happens, I do not know but Just just looking at where society is today and where it was 2 000 years ago we can see that I mean we can see that we no longer accept gladiators as morally acceptable

01:08:35

We never we see that we no longer accept burning witches as morally acceptable. We see that we no longer see castrating um

01:08:43

Gay people as being morally acceptable. We we have evolved more morally To realize that these things are not healthy and are not good but only but in the western world

01:08:53

Right, right And and like I said, I don't know how that happens and I don't think it's a biological thing

01:08:59

I I don't I don't think that But How i'm just curious then how can you?

01:09:06

So you you you recognize that it is there's cultural things that Talking, but then you say it's universal.

01:09:13

So how could it be universal? Maybe i'm wrong. Maybe it's not universal. Okay All right

01:09:20

That that's fair Yeah All right. Did you you have more drew on that? Uh, no,

01:09:26

I because I want to make sure chuck gets in as well. So I I could

01:09:34

Continue the conversation But I want I have a feeling, you know, if kelly wants to come back I I have a feeling we can have a lot of good conversations here

01:09:41

And I have a feeling chuck's probably going to ask some of the same questions going on in my mind as well yeah, and we have questions that are piling up I see that you're you're grabbing so so One of the things that I want to do we're going to talk about if we're talking about sovereignty human responsibility

01:09:59

When when I go through this what I want to try and do is though If we're going to do an internal critique and this is one of the things

01:10:04

I struggle On both sides when I see people who try to do an internal critique but then

01:10:12

What they're really doing is attacking the position. They they deny the position and then say that it doesn't work, right?

01:10:19

Uh, so one of the things I do is I do original source Research so when I do some I don't just look at what's

01:10:26

I'm going to look at the context I'm going to go back to the origin of a of a quote and check that out That's what

01:10:32

I do because I find that people will misquote things. They will word things in ways

01:10:38

For example, I have a book out called what do they believe it's on different world religions I was able to write that book give it to people in those religions and say am

01:10:47

I accurate to what you believe? And i've been glad to find out that i've been told i'm accurate

01:10:54

Even had one guy challenge me and tell me that no christian writes on mormonism And is accurate to it.

01:11:00

They always misrepresent. I said, okay. I'll tell you what I'll give you a copy of my book. I'll ship it to you I said if you can find something that's wrong

01:11:10

I'll i'll correct it you keep the copy but if you If you can't find anything

01:11:15

You pay me 15 for the book He goes, okay He admitted that three of the things that he found he found six things three he admitted they were just grammatical

01:11:24

Two he said he was desperate to find something and one that he argued was over whether Jesus and lucifer were born the same time or whether jesus was born before him

01:11:35

And I said, but doesn't mormonism have a lot of discussion on that topic. He goes. Well, yes

01:11:41

I never sold my 15 by the way So so we can do internal critiques.

01:11:46

So i'm asking you to do an internal critique In this sense. So if if paul wrote romans

01:11:52

And god worked through him to write it then in that mindset did paul

01:11:58

Choose the very words that he would do not being influenced by god. Did he choose? Okay, you're making some assumptions there that I don't believe

01:12:08

I understand but if we're doing an internal critique, we would need to do that right so To to evaluate the christian perspective

01:12:17

Okay to evaluate the christian perspective. Okay. Yeah. All right All right, and and your question was so so Can we say that paul?

01:12:27

So did paul choose when in his writing is his writing style say different than john's did they have different word?

01:12:34

Usage that they like to do and things like that. Yes So we could we could say that paul chose his words.

01:12:40

Yes, that'd be fair And yet from a christian perspective god worked through him to to write those words in such a way that Every word was exactly as god intended it to be and that's why we call it god's word god gets all the credit for it now for an

01:12:58

A being who is infinite, right? He's he is infinite in his knowledge He could know what paul is going to do

01:13:07

That doesn't mean he has to determine it And yet because he's outside of time and because he's all knowing he can know the things that are going to happen

01:13:17

Without determining it Still predict it for future events because it's all the same now to him

01:13:24

He could know what they're going to do he can sometimes he could step in and Get involved in his creation.

01:13:31

Other times he could let it happen, but still be in complete control of it And so we see that with scripture the writing of scripture.

01:13:38

We would see that same argument in the in after someone becomes a christian

01:13:45

With sanctification, I i'm going to assume you know that term, but for those who may not

01:13:50

Sanctification is after someone becomes converted to christianity It's that process of being kind of made more in the image of christ being more refined

01:13:59

More christ -like until the day we die and then we're glorified where we no longer have a body of sin so it's it's a process of Being made more saint -like

01:14:09

In a sense we never arrive there Um, but that's the idea that we're it's the process but in that process we the scripture would say we do good works

01:14:19

But those good works are credited back to god So it's the same thing god working through us so that the good works that we actually choose to do are really god doing it through us

01:14:28

And so in that in light of that That's how I can answer the question of god's sovereignty human responsibility

01:14:34

Even in how we're converted to christ. So the argument you had with this calvinist and latent flowers

01:14:40

It goes back to the fact that What what they're arguing for is one side or the other maybe

01:14:45

I don't know who the I didn't See the one with the with the atheist. So I don't know how he was arguing. I do know layton

01:14:51

So I don't I know how he argues but It's one side of the other

01:14:57

So it's not calvinism I'll get calvinism out of it. Just say what the bible would teach

01:15:03

Uh wouldn't be a determinism God is sovereign So he's in control of all things

01:15:11

I wouldn't say that he's forcing all things And so this is a big difference what most people refer to as calvinism as we started the show with is is a determinism that it's god forces every decision my my my wife's sunday school teacher when

01:15:25

When we were engaged he was What i'd call a an extreme calvinist or hyper calvinist

01:15:34

He would be a determinist I actually asked him his name was andrew as well But I said andrew if I just pulled back and cold cock you did

01:15:41

I do it or did god do it? He says oh god made you do it. I'm like can't can't live with that Right because that's not what the bible teaches god teaches that we have a morality

01:15:50

The reason I don't say we have a free will that was the word you used On your show kelly. Mm -hmm.

01:15:56

Yeah, that's the word most christians use with me. Yeah, most christian most people Yeah, and the issue is according to the bible where we have a will

01:16:05

But our will is enslaved to sin and Therefore we're it's not free

01:16:12

And that's actually what we see in color. I mean like all these things that you're identifying as as evils and morally wrong fit with the bible

01:16:20

If evolution was was making us better and better and better. We should see society getting better and better and better and we don't

01:16:29

Why do you say that well by the things you said you said murder and rape and and that's up higher now than Oh, no, it's not

01:16:37

It's not in this country. Look look at the stats The murder rate this year is is the lowest that it's been in like 20 years

01:16:46

Um, and you know in the last 20 years the murder rate has been you know, violent crime is way down Um Yes, well we we could get into a fun discussion on why that is because it's how you count the numbers um

01:17:01

Once we change the definition of a violent crime but even even even the fact that we prosecute violent crime is

01:17:09

Is an advancement in morality over what happened? You know a thousand a few millennia ago when when you know, there there was no such thing as a rule of law um

01:17:23

Just because just because there still continues to be social ills Doesn't mean society isn't working to try to address those social ills

01:17:33

When would you think there was a time when there wasn't a law rule of law prehistoric? And how would you know that I mean as far back as we can we have knowledge.

01:17:46

There's always been a rule of law, hasn't there? um,

01:17:51

I don't think that homo habilis or uh, or neanderthals or um or um

01:18:03

Denisovans, I I don't think they had rules of law. I I do think they had some kind of Of of moral development, you know, they had some kind of idea of right and wrong but they certainly didn't have a system by which uh, they could determine that someone had broken a law that You know that they would be well, they they might actually punish someone for breaking well, maybe you're right

01:18:27

Maybe there always has been some kind of rule of law. I don't know. It it depends on how you define rule of law

01:18:34

Yeah, well, I I mean from my perspective there wasn't any written law until the code of hamarabi well uh,

01:18:41

I well We there's We could debate over that as you know, we because that's the earliest one we have that we recognize right we right

01:18:53

The earliest one we know of yeah the earliest that we know of um, I would say that there's always been a rule of law since adam and eve

01:19:01

Right because I would say the rule law came from god um I will put this up keith puts this up and says slavery is much higher worldwide um,

01:19:12

I I would actually say You know again depends on how we're going to define slavery um

01:19:18

You know in the broadest sense employer employee uh is is a form of what was the slate of slavery of of a

01:19:28

You know a master You know slave employer employee that there's some not ownership of because there is different again different types of slavery

01:19:37

Right, not all slavery is property But if we're going to look at what what I have a real concern with and why you know uh is is human trafficking uh, and that is at astronomical numbers today even in america where wherever they they talk about every we're moral we're civilized which is

01:19:58

Okay, i'm going to get off on a tangent. Sorry kelly, but You know one of the things uh in during nazi germany that that always puzzled me

01:20:07

Uh when I would study it in hebrew school was the fact that the the germans Refused to believe what hitler was actually doing and their argument was because we're so civilized

01:20:20

They thought that this could never be happening because they're so civilized I look at the crimes going on today and it's like people just turn a blind eye to it

01:20:28

They don't want to address it now I don't know part of it. I think all the politicians are involved in it. So they

01:20:34

They may have this is my theory they have a a a reason they want to turn a blind eye to it

01:20:40

Uh and not address it. But but you know, we have we have that. Um Let's see rob

01:20:47

I put this one up that you had put rob said to to you and and i'm assuming a lot of people either know

01:20:55

Watch your channel And know who you are because they're all calling you gg So, uh, which is another name you go by but uh, he says

01:21:04

Are laws universal or did they develop you can't have it both ways. So well, how would you respond to that?

01:21:10

I would say There's different types of laws There are some laws that are universal and there are others that are not you know

01:21:19

Some some things develop and some things do not Okay Well, let me do this.

01:21:25

Let me uh, we're gonna we'll bring chuck in in a moment before we do Uh, because if i'm i'm just looking at drew there and if I look at drew he looks a little bit sleepy

01:21:36

Yeah, you you woke up just there just in time because you knew it was time for squirrelly joe's coffee And you were you're you need to go get your cup because clearly you're not going to make it to the rest of the show

01:21:46

Just hold my eyes open Clearly you've been you've been working way too hard trying to produce your your your cologne here or perfume or whatever.

01:21:56

We won't call it We're actually producing more than just that um, we're producing room sprays, uh carpet deodorizers uh

01:22:05

What else wax melts? We're we're producing a lot of stuff that's going to be coming out I I would

01:22:11

I really want what I really want when you could produce the the You know latent flower spray that just makes heresy go away

01:22:20

Okay Okay Hey, it rhymed late and i'll give me a hard time about that. Anyway, squirrelly does coffee

01:22:27

Uh, if you guys want to get yourself a great cup of coffee, uh, Every every of the all of the the beans are hand are roasted handpicked uh

01:22:38

Bagged all by one family. Well, at least they they started with phone family I think they're starting to have to maybe hire more because they're growing but uh one family.

01:22:47

I love the idea of a Husband and wife they're training their children how to run a business. That's part of how it started squirrelly joe's coffee

01:22:54

That was excellent coffee And uh, I I know because I had a coffee snob come to my house and loved my coffee

01:23:02

Didn't know where it was from. So, uh, you can get a lot of different types You can get your first purchase by the way with 20 off if you use the promo code sfe

01:23:11

So just go to striving for eternity .org Slash coffee and you can get yourself a great cup of coffee and at the same time get yourself 20 off that first bag but Like I always say if you're jewish like me

01:23:24

You don't want one bag if you're getting 20 off only once I get all Make that first order a big one.

01:23:30

That's what I did get the 20 off a lot So go to squirrelly joe's get squirrelly joe's coffee at striving fraternity .org

01:23:37

slash coffee That'll help you wake up in the morning. And what what drew needs right now is a good my pillow because he's he's looking like he's ready for that and We know we know you don't have one because your wife stole it your son stole it

01:23:53

So You need to go out to mypillow .com use promo code sfe for striving fraternity get yourself your pillow so that you can uh,

01:24:01

You know, it's in the morning. I gotta tell the story because Right.

01:24:07

I've i've told it when when I got my first my pillow, right? My wife stole it from me I've told that story on here several times

01:24:14

But then my son this this happened the other night I took my my pillow and I put it down and I was going to sleep on it

01:24:23

And my son said daddy. No That's my pillow and so he took it from me and then gave me another pillow and I was like What are you doing to me man

01:24:38

Yeah You just need to go buy another yeah, because you keep you keep losing your my pillows to your kids Until the two -year -old takes that one and then the baby will end up taking if I take it if I get another one

01:24:48

Yeah, I don't know what's the point of it All right. Well, let me bring chuck in he had he has a question here

01:24:56

So chuck welcome to the program. All right. Thank you. Can you hear me? Okay No, we can't hear you at all.

01:25:01

Try again. That's too bad. I'm only kidding So, uh, yeah, thank you kelly for coming in, uh we got to chat a little bit before the show started and You are super likable and I think we could be great neighbors and thank you

01:25:15

And I appreciate you coming in here and being in the hot seat as they might say. Um, so I hope that this is not too much of a hot seat.

01:25:24

Yeah, kelly. You'll have to be the judge here. But uh, I I try to think that we're not Maybe comfortably warm I I I well if we

01:25:34

I think that if I asked her maybe off air Who is the an easier conversation me or eric hernandez?

01:25:42

I think definitely you okay, just checking Hey eric when we debate just remember

01:25:49

I got one win over you Sounds good. So, uh, i'm curious that when you were a professing christian, this is my question.

01:25:58

Did you know the lord? Well, that's that's a very good question because if you had asked me that while I was a christian

01:26:06

I would have said absolutely Yes, I I would have said, you know, of course I do, you know, he's he's he's a huge part of my life

01:26:14

But now when I look back on that part I don't believe that that god ever was there in the first place.

01:26:21

And so did I know the lord? I certainly thought I did But now I look back on all of the experiences that I had that I thought were god speaking to me

01:26:31

And I can't point to a single one of them that could not have happened exactly as it happened with no god so Yeah From an atheist perspective.

01:26:42

I would say no i've never known the lord from a christian perspective when I was a believer I absolutely thought

01:26:48

I knew the lord. Okay, so just just so just for information, uh biblically that you know, uh

01:26:54

You were a false convert, which there are a lot of those out there who think they were christians But they didn't really know the lord

01:27:00

And and so, um, that's just you know, not a put down or anything Uh, there's just you know people that go go through that because a lot of times they've been given a false gospel

01:27:09

You know and false knowledge and stuff like that But i'm really curious. What was the one?

01:27:14

How would anyone know that if if if I can go to church?

01:27:20

Read my bible Read, you know Wayne grudem tim keller john piper.

01:27:27

Um, lee strobel. Um, rick warren, um, uh

01:27:33

Chen what's his name? I can't remember. Um, that's just chen. Yeah You know, I I read all these people if I can read all of these apologetics

01:27:42

I can go to all these conferences. I can attend church. I can read my book I can do all the things that christians are supposed to do and still somehow manage to miss the boat

01:27:53

Yes, that's that's a really good question. Is that yeah, that's a good question And you know, I I actually when

01:27:59

I when I when you sent me your bio It made me actually think of that because when I looked at your bio

01:28:04

Where you said, you know that you were a christian for 42 years and how you define that you defined it, you know by Uh that you helped found a church build a christian library from scratch teach women's bible studies sunday school vbs

01:28:18

Do missions trips? It's all the things you did Versus what a christian would be the the way

01:28:25

The way to know when people sit there and and struggle and say well, um, i'm not sure i'm just gonna

01:28:33

No, it wasn't chuck i'm trying to see whose mic it is that's I thought it might have been yep it is chuck, okay um

01:28:41

Sorry, just unmute yourself when you when you want. Um, so The difference really between a christian and what chuck referred to as a false convert would be this

01:28:51

Do you hate your sin or the consequences of your sin? That's really a good way of indicating because a a christian

01:29:00

Hates the fact that they sin They break god's law because it's an offense to god.

01:29:05

And this is what for a christian, they love christ beyond all measure because of what he did for us and To to do something against him is like the worst thing we could do and so it's not the consequences

01:29:19

We hate we hate the actual sin. We're doing we're for an unbeliever It's kind of the it's the the consequences

01:29:27

It's we don't want to get caught or we don't like the way it makes us feel when we do things Is that helping make an understanding the difference?

01:29:35

no, because When I when christians ask me

01:29:41

How do you know you were a christian and I tell them about my experience, you know in What I felt and how

01:29:49

I was converted and And and what was in my heart they say well That's not how you determine whether or not a person is christian.

01:29:57

You have to look at their works You have to look at the fruit So then I start naming all the things that I do

01:30:03

Or did and they say well, no, that's not how you become a christian That's that's works and that's that's not christianity.

01:30:11

And so no matter how I answer the question There's going to be a christian somewhere that's going to say that's the wrong answer and that's part of the problem with christianity is

01:30:21

You know, i've heard you say a number of things that well, this is what the what what the bible really means

01:30:26

But I know I can go to a christian christian why and he'll say no you're wrong.

01:30:32

This is what the bible really means Well, okay, and so the way we determine that So you're right in the sense that okay how we come to christ how we get converted

01:30:42

Would be without works after we're Regenerated after we we come to christ after we're converted

01:30:51

That process i've referred to as sanctification. There are works right? And so yes, there are people that mix those two up cults do that all the time, uh to answer the second thing that you said

01:31:02

Yeah, there is a way of knowing I mean the area of expertise that i'm in is in what's called hermeneutics

01:31:08

The art and science of interpretation we have rules for how to interpret things Right. Well, so it's christian.

01:31:14

Why? Yeah, and so the question is are we following the rules? Right, because what you find is a lot of people will say we follow the rules and then they they end up Taking some go.

01:31:24

Oh, well, we think this means this and they start reading something in Unfortunately, one of the worst things that happened

01:31:30

I get I know why it happened but one of the worst things that happened for for christians was probably chapter breaks and verse breaks because People start reading things out of context much of the much of the dilemma people have is just putting it in context right, it's just Same as what you did with drew earlier in the program, right?

01:31:50

You just said well, I think i'm not sure of the context. He just backed up and read right? And that's that's what we have to do 75 of the problems are probably resolved just by reading context like we folks who are regular here on this show

01:32:03

You know, there's been plenty of times where I have all i've done when people make an argument read the read the scripture

01:32:09

I don't even give any interpretation And it's like well, that's your interpretation. I just read it

01:32:15

Like that's all I had to do. Um, so there the the reality though is I think you're right.

01:32:21

There's there's most people want to to See the bible teach something that they wish it would say

01:32:33

And so what they do is they they don't follow the rules of interpretation It's they're either going to use the rules or they're going to use something of their person, you know

01:32:41

Whether it's their theological system that's going to interpret it whether it's going to be their experience that's going to interpret it

01:32:47

So so you make a valid point with the with what I pointed out about your bio Because your bio you're trying to then if i'm understanding what you're saying

01:32:55

You're you're trying to say this is the proof that you claimed you were a christian, right? Is how

01:33:00

I don't know that I would say proof I mean it was Things that I have done when I was a christian so so this isn't

01:33:09

This isn't what you're looking at and saying. Well, this is proof that I was the christian. This is This is what

01:33:14

I did as what I did as a christian Then i'll stand corrected because I think that that's the way you're the way you're arguing then it would be more valid so I I would bring up and maybe chuck it was probably thinking this but I mean, this is again what scripture says, right?

01:33:31

but to people, you know, like like yourself who You know came into the church, but then but then left

01:33:39

John in first john 2 19 says they went out from from us because they were not really of us.

01:33:45

They went out from us that Uh, they would have remained with us, but they went out so that it would be shown that they were not of us that would say that You were never christian.

01:33:57

That's and that's and I hope in the beginning. We've heard that plenty of times Yeah, and and i'm saying that to say

01:34:03

I hope that you were not offended When I said that you professed to be that you professed that you were a christian or claimed to be a christian

01:34:10

Because according to that verse I I would say you never were a christian. I don't mean it to be insulting You know it in an insulting way it's just i'm

01:34:19

Relying on what the scripture says I I i'm not insulted because I also know plenty of other christians

01:34:25

That would say that you are not a christian because you don't fit their definition of what constitutes a christian yeah, there's

01:34:32

There's so many christians pointing fingers at one another saying you're not real. You're not real. You're not real but And we did that you all do it to each other

01:34:42

So that you do it to me too doesn't matter Well, yeah, and and I just didn't want you know, when chuck called it said you were a false convert

01:34:49

I think he did he's trying not to be you know Insulting in the way he was saying it but I think

01:34:58

I hope that's fair chuck Did you want to go on with you had more question? I I do think he was unfair in that He doesn't know what what

01:35:07

I was feeling and for him to say that he did I think is unfair Well, I would like to say that I wasn't talking about what you were feeling i'm just talking biblically what the definition is

01:35:20

Okay, and I definitely didn't mean it as an insult right Because we know like also like in matthew

01:35:26

Jesus said there'll be people on the on the day of judgment though They'll call him lord lord and saying we did all these wonderful things and he's going to say depart from me

01:35:34

I never knew you these were other you know false converts and that's that's a great burden I have

01:35:39

Is that people who think they're christians? but they're really not and so That's a burden.

01:35:45

I have I do have another question if I have time, but you know, i'm secondary here So no, go ahead The first hour of the show we dedicate, uh, and if you're regular here second hour, we we usually will take questions

01:35:59

Hopefully on topic And and it doesn't have to be on topic if people come in with questions on mormonism

01:36:04

I don't expect kelly to answer it unless she's got a background in that and no, I don't know much about mormonism

01:36:10

All I know is that they have magic underwear Yeah And yet somehow it doesn't protect them from car accidents and they all have a story of how it does

01:36:21

But back to your thing, right? There's plenty a lot. There's Muslims have have stories and everyone has stories how some you know where they'll claim that god saved them from something

01:36:33

But that doesn't just because people have those false claims doesn't discount true claims of christianity

01:36:42

But go ahead jack Okay. Thank you. So, uh Something else i'm interested in kelly.

01:36:48

What was In your mind, what was the main? big thing That made you decide to leave the faith

01:36:56

I wanted to ask that question as well There there were two things

01:37:02

Um the first and I didn't even realize that this is what I had done because I wasn't familiar with it

01:37:10

Was I was reflecting on the life of the apostle paul And I reasoned my way into the divine hiddenness problem

01:37:17

And like I said, I didn't I didn't even know that that's what I had done because i'd never heard of the divine hiddenness problem

01:37:22

Yeah, so for folks who don't know, can you please define that? Okay, let's do that on the show. It's not just put things out

01:37:29

I I don't know the precise way that it's that it's declared philosophically

01:37:35

But the but the way that I went into it was I started thinking about the fact that jesus personally appeared to paul

01:37:43

And I started thinking about you know If jesus has the ability to personally appear to paul

01:37:49

Does he have the ability? to personally appear to anyone and Yeah, you know if if god is if god is omnipotent then he has the ability to do that Well, then why doesn't he?

01:38:02

The bible says that god wants everyone to know him Actually, you know what?

01:38:08

I made a chart about well, it's a it's a very simplistic chart But if god wants everyone to know him

01:38:15

He's either able to bring that about or he's not able to bring that about and if he's not able to bring that about He's not god

01:38:22

If he's able to bring that about He either chooses not to bring that about Or he didn't choose to not bring that about and if he chooses to not bring that about That means he chose

01:38:37

That the vast majority of humanity is going to go to hell And that was something

01:38:44

I could not accept that that a loving god Would choose

01:38:51

For a minimum of two -thirds of the world to be damned for eternity

01:38:56

And your other choice is well, that's not what god wanted well But that's what's happening

01:39:04

Is god able to fix that or is he unable to fix that? If he's unable to fix that then he's not god

01:39:11

And if he's able to fix that Why isn't he so and that that's really where I was

01:39:18

I was reasoning just Would you say should god be just If it's if it's going to be the christian god then yes,

01:39:30

I mean if you've got an evil god then no, okay so if he's going to be just Wouldn't he have to punish wrongdoing?

01:39:38

no, well, it depends but There's there's a difference between punishment and retribution and Eternal torture is not punishment.

01:39:51

That's retribution The the purpose of punishment is to correct and to try to Bring about better behavior

01:40:00

And if you throw someone in a lake of fire for eternity there is no opportunity for that person to learn and to improve and to to rehabilitate

01:40:11

That's that's not justice justice rehabilitates okay so He's Do let me ask it this way

01:40:24

Would you want to spend eternity with god? Not if it is a god that throws people into hell for eternal torture for You know just telling a lie.

01:40:39

I mean even for a minor infraction picking up sticks on the sabbath um

01:40:44

Worshipping the wrong god If that's who god is then no

01:40:49

I would not want to be with him for eternity And yet the real issue is not that it's picking up sticks on the sabbath.

01:40:56

It's people taking the place of god that that they're Refusing to submit to the to their creator and wanting to be the creator wanting to be the god

01:41:09

I would first need to know that that is who this person is And if I don't know this god, then

01:41:16

I can't be be guilty of doing that Well, I would say it's the god that you're

01:41:23

You're trying to deny the very one you do know But I don't

01:41:30

I do not know any god Well, see what god says, you know him and you suppress that in unrighteousness

01:41:36

So you assume because you assume that the bible is true Well The reality is is that You you see everywhere around where people either

01:41:48

They're they either create a god because they have they know a god exists or they try to deny the god and You end up seeing

01:41:57

I mean, I don't know how many times I talked to professing atheists That you know will sit there and get so angry about god that they say doesn't exist

01:42:06

Well, you know and the question I always ask is you know, do you well, let me ask it of you You you read lots of books on atheism, correct?

01:42:13

No, i've only read a couple. Okay You you've you've read You're part of an atheist christian book club though Uh, I I was a guest once that's the only time i've ever been there

01:42:26

Oh, okay. That was the only so the time I saw was the only time okay. Um, so But you you study atheism

01:42:33

I would not say that I study atheism. I haven't been an atheist for very long Well, I thought you

01:42:39

I thought you were I've been i've been reading bart ehrman's books, but I wouldn't call that studying atheism.

01:42:46

Okay um, I I started one of um, I read one of dawkins books

01:42:52

I read um, um Oh gosh, what's it called?

01:42:58

The blind no, it's I can't remember the title of it right now But it was it was it was on uh, the selfish gene.

01:43:05

I read the selfish gene so but but you I mean let me put it this way so you would

01:43:13

You would study, uh arguments For for atheism though Would that be fair?

01:43:21

I mean you have a you have a youtube channel It depends on how you how you define study

01:43:27

I do I do look into them I do read articles on them, but I I do I have not engaged in a formal course of study

01:43:34

Okay, and and you you're I mean your channel Would it be fair to say you tell me if i'm wrong?

01:43:40

Would it be fair to say your your channel is is dedicated toward atheism? Yes. Okay Is it is it dedicated to let me ask it this way just so I can be precise.

01:43:51

Is it dedicated toward promoting atheism? or is it dedicated to Proving the christian god doesn't exist and and there is a difference there

01:44:01

Because most atheists I mean when I was at both of the reason rallies and I listened to all the talks they were really christianity's wrong

01:44:10

Republicans are bad and it wasn't anything. I I There was literally out of two the two times they had it with I don't know how many four dozen speakers

01:44:20

There was only one speaker that actually gave an argument for atheism so Um, so so I want to so I want to make sure

01:44:29

I understand so your channel would you say it's it's promoting atheism or Disbunking christianity

01:44:37

It would be more debunk debunking christianity. Okay. Does it go about debunking other religions?

01:44:43

Occasionally, but not very often. I did recently do one on why I find the hijab offensive

01:44:50

Okay um And why would you why would you say that you focus on christianity and not because it's what

01:44:58

I know because what you know Okay, that's fair that's why I wanted to ask because the reason I was asking is what

01:45:03

I find is a lot of professing atheists will They don't look to debunk any of the other religions

01:45:09

They just debunk christianity, but really what their their their study arguments for atheism and i'll ask the question

01:45:15

Do you believe santa claus exists? They'll say no But do you go to the malls and try to convince people because they'll tell the the argument

01:45:23

I always get is They're trying to convince people To to wake up from their delusion But why don't you go to the malls and in december and tell everyone that santa claus doesn't exist

01:45:33

Number one because the adults don't believe it It's only the children and i'm not going to go rain on the parade of a children a child

01:45:41

Just like I don't go and tell children about atheism. I do have three videos that I made for children on atheism but they are not

01:45:51

Debunking christianity. They are more Explaining what it means to be an atheist and why it's okay if your friend is an atheist um so I I do not go and try to proselytize

01:46:04

Atheism to children and so that that's one of the differences and the second major difference is

01:46:10

No one is trying to force santa claus on me and tell me that I have to live a particular way because santa claus is real

01:46:18

No one is telling me that I have to be good for goodness sakes because if I don't santa's not going to bring me any toys

01:46:25

But I do have christians telling me that I had better believe in their god or i'm going to hell for eternity or I had better believe what they tell me because if I don't their god is going to get me and I I have a serious problem with christians wanting to legislate their religion into What I have to I have to go by um

01:46:52

You know, for example, the louisiana schools recently passed a law saying that the schools had to post the ten commandments

01:47:00

I have no problem with posting the ten commandments if it's Part of a historical, you know study of of ancient laws, you know, that's perfectly appropriate

01:47:11

But for the school to display the ten commandments Just by itself Is a form of the government endorsing a particular religion which that's what

01:47:21

I have a problem with which religion Well, it would be any religion that believes in the in in the ten commandments, which would be the abrahamic religions yeah, so the majority of the religions that are here represented in america, but The the the point is no one's forcing has anyone been trying to force you legislatively to go to church

01:47:42

Not to go to church, no, but people have been trying to force their uh

01:47:47

I've seen christians that want to take the right away to vote away from women

01:47:52

Okay. So are you are you then against the homosexuals that try to prevent?

01:47:58

christians from being able to have a bakery I don't know of any homosexuals that are trying to prevent christians from having

01:48:08

Court yeah, I went to this. No, they were not trying to prevent them from having a bakery the bakery already existed

01:48:13

They went to the bakery to order a cake and the baker refused to order them a cake

01:48:19

No, no What he refused he refused to Make a specialized cake for them.

01:48:27

He didn't refuse to sell them a cake And and soon as he they won the supreme court, what did they do? They came right back with another lawsuit

01:48:35

He's he's had he's had an he's gotten another lawsuit. That's that went up that is going probably gonna end up at the supreme court

01:48:42

Right. So so yeah The I mean, are you against those that you whose rights you promote?

01:48:50

That want to prevent christians. I want you want that want to legislate out christianity

01:48:56

But that's not legislating out christianity Both ways though worship is god

01:49:03

Yeah, but now he's Coming into enforcing him to say you must bake a cake a specialized cake for this community

01:49:11

Even if you disagree with it, that's the government If if a black couple

01:49:19

Came into a baker and asked them to make him a wedding cake with a black bride and groom on top

01:49:27

And the baker was a racist Should the baker be allowed to say?

01:49:32

I don't think black people should be allowed to get married I refuse to make a cake for for a black couple according to the white bride and groom up there

01:49:40

But I will not put a black white bride and groom on that cake. Yeah, according to the laws in america okay

01:49:47

People have the right to with to do what they To use their services the way they want so so to tell them they must do it that way then that is forcing your

01:49:58

Call it religious belief or not on someone else You're just using the legislation Anti -discrimination and it is illegal.

01:50:06

It's still a new service to the black couple because they are black So there are certain protected classes.

01:50:12

Yeah, and that's one of them in the same town where where the master's cake was 13

01:50:20

Muslim bakeries someone went in did the same thing to 13 muslim bakeries and there isn't a judge that'll take the case

01:50:28

Or wouldn't take the case So so what you do see is that it is being targeted and the the it is discriminatory against christianity, so so you you we can't sit here and say

01:50:41

That well, we're it's be christians are forcing it. That's that's a narrative that might work for the the media

01:50:48

But it's not reality because if we look at it if if christianity was being legislated

01:50:54

Then abortion would be outlawed. It wouldn't be a state issue. It would be outlawed

01:50:59

I I agree and that's if it was if it was being forced legislatively You'd have to go to church every sunday

01:51:06

See the the thing is there is no christian nation there there has yet to ever be a christian nation

01:51:12

There's a bunch of nations that have been You know run on christian values or run by people that claim to be christian.

01:51:17

There are there are plenty of Countries around the world that that are based off of religion, you know

01:51:24

It islam You have roman catholicism. And yes, i'm making a distinction between roman catholicism and christian

01:51:31

If you have a problem with it, they're the ones that say that what we believe is anathema. So they made the difference it's a i'm just Agreeing with what they say we are different.

01:51:41

So, um But there hasn't been a christian Uh nation, I think that the values that this country was formed on was was christian judeo -christian values from the scriptures but I I do

01:51:54

I And I don't take kelly. I'm not taking offense personally at you So I don't want to come off there

01:52:00

I do take offense when when people say christians are forcing their beliefs because we're not forcing anything when you say

01:52:06

Okay, it's not all christians doing that. It's only groups But even with what you said when it's like you were saying well

01:52:12

You have to believe what we tell you you believe or you're going to go to hell, you know We're not forcing that on you. That's forced on me as much as it is you

01:52:19

Whether I obey god or not. I have the same consequence that you have It's not me forcing it

01:52:26

It's the fact of i'm sharing you with you what I would see as good news. You wouldn't

01:52:31

I get it but the thing is there's a difference between saying This is the the freedom of speech to say this is what the bible says

01:52:42

I'm not telling you you have to believe it if you don't believe it Okay, you're going to suffer the consequence that if you tell me that I shouldn't go murder someone and I choose to ignore that I'm going to suffer the consequences of that But i'm not forcing i'm not forcing you to be a christian.

01:52:58

I'm not and and there's no no christians Are trying to legislate to force you to be a christian or go to go to church.

01:53:06

Have you seen project 2025? Did you see act blue 2025

01:53:11

Uh, no, I have not okay, there's not not much talk about that one

01:53:18

It's complete marxism But that's that's that doesn't get spoken of So yes, i've seen parts of of what shared about uh, project 2025

01:53:30

Where does that does that legislate that people have to be in church? I I don't know if it does that but that isn't that isn't the only thing

01:53:40

I mean The the point of project 2025 is to try to bring christian christianity as the

01:53:49

Preferred religion of the country that that is the the agenda of the american heritage foundation

01:53:56

What but what I have a more serious problem with are the young earthers That want us to deny what we know from science and as a result

01:54:08

They want us to ignore scientists when they tell us things like Take a vaccine for the pandemic now

01:54:15

I know not all young earthers did that, you know, some of the young earthers did very much support You know going out and get your and guess what the science the science supported not getting the vaccine

01:54:25

I mean so so if you're looking at the That's a perfect example because what you what you just provided is when we were told to get a vaccine

01:54:33

What did we see? We saw people that were not following the science. It was it was dying.

01:54:39

It was If the if so many people are dying Whether people claim the vaccine was killing people kovu was killing people then.

01:54:47

Why did the death rate not change statistically? The death rate actually went down in 2020

01:54:54

Statistically it went down by two percent. It was up. I think three percent in 2021

01:55:00

It was a it was within the statistical range that we continue to see so Sorry, people weren't dying from it.

01:55:08

I mean, yeah, I do know someone if you think people didn't die from kovid Then you they you've lost your mind.

01:55:14

Okay, so so there were eight hundred thousand people who died of kovid Eight hundred thousand people who died with kovid

01:55:23

There's a big difference like the guy I know who is who is in a motorcycle accident and it was a kovid death

01:55:29

He didn't die because of kovid he happened to have kovid. Okay, whatever whatever

01:55:36

Well, I mean in in talking about following the science the experts the doctors

01:55:42

I mean, it's the same people that said Masks aren't going to do anything

01:55:49

And then they came out and said you must wear masks And then they came out again The reason for masks was was very simple and you can go back and look at when that changed

01:56:00

It was when donald trump wouldn't wear a mask It was a political statement and then and then not too long ago.

01:56:07

They came back out and said masks Well, we we knew all along fauci had said he knew that it

01:56:13

Yeah, he was one of the first ones to say wearing a mask isn't going to do anything Came out came back and said it will do something

01:56:20

It's not that it won't do anything, but then you had the cdc that was also altering numbers and they came out and admitted it

01:56:28

Some of those death numbers uh, so it's like You know trust the experts but then when the experts lie to you, then what do you do?

01:56:36

They're no longer experts anymore. So now who do you trust? And that that's ultimately what we're coming down to right like you're you would reject the bible

01:56:45

That fair statement kelly, right you're gonna look down on on Young earthers, which

01:56:53

I don't know anyone who thinks the earth is young. Uh, 6 000 years would be a pretty long time That was like no anyone that looks

01:57:02

I probably would get that and laugh but no um but The the thing is is that it's ultimately coming down to What's what's the authority?

01:57:12

Right Your your authority would this be fair to say your authority would be The scientists and those who who you you're studying alive today

01:57:23

Would that be fair That depends on the topic Okay, I I don't look to scientists for authority on history.

01:57:31

I don't look to scientists for authority on morality I don't look to scientists for Authority on on legal matters.

01:57:38

I only look to scientists for authority on science, you know affairs One looks to the experts in the particular field of their expertise

01:57:46

That we don't we don't I don't take one group of people and make them the authority over everything Okay Yeah.

01:57:53

Yeah, i've had it. I'm, sorry. I i've had it What what what have you had it with you why

01:58:03

Because I think you're off the wall You know, you're you're citing all these things and claiming them to be facts that are not facts

01:58:10

Well, actually here's the difference you you made a whole bunch of claims That you just made claims over and over I told you where you could go.

01:58:18

You can go to the cdc You can go to you can go to dr Fauci and go back and listen and see the things that we said, but it's off the wall because it's not part of your narrative so like are you looking for truth or narrative becomes the the thing and and you're you're you're now upset just because we said something that Didn't support the narrative

01:58:42

No, that's not it at all Then what is

01:58:50

I'm done. All right Well different topic, um

01:58:58

Who in terms of like history like let's say american history um Would you view have you read uh, howard's ends of people's history of the united states?

01:59:09

No Okay, then There's no need to go to that topic All right.

01:59:15

Well, I mean the the point I was going to make but I mean, I think it so this book right here is um

01:59:23

Looked at as an authority on american history It's in it's required reading in almost every college and u .s.

01:59:31

History classes uh, the problem is Howard zen himself Is not a historian

01:59:38

What year was that published this was published, uh When was the first year because it's had a couple of reprintings um

01:59:52

The first year it was published was 1980 Um, but the problem is why

01:59:58

I didn't see it in college I I started college. I took I only took one history class in college and that was in 79

02:00:06

Okay Um, but he this book this this was even required reading in When I went to christian college, uh bible college, um, which was weird, but where people

02:00:18

I went to secular college um, but christians are not christians, but People real historians have come behind howard's end and corrected his history

02:00:30

The problem is a lot of people aren't listening to the actual experts in history They're still listening to historical revisionism as though it's the authority so That's what we see when we see a lot of right talking about the experts, right?

02:00:45

Who's the experts who determines what the experts are? Do those experts actually have credentials? Uh, have they been proven wrong?

02:00:52

Are they going to say they're proven wrong, right? those are the things that if you want to go to global skepticism, that's fine, but But but those are things we even got some different problems.

02:01:02

Yeah, but those are things that we that I mean, we've even talked about here andrew's documented it.

02:01:07

There used to be another co -host here Who's a doctor that's actually documented all this stuff as well that in terms of covid

02:01:16

The experts And the scientists were and what they were telling us to do was wrong and it's been proven to be wrong

02:01:24

Okay, I I really am done with that topic. I don't want to talk about that topic You want to talk about that topic fine?

02:01:30

You guys can talk among yourselves and i'll leave that Well, we'll we'll end the show. I just want I just want to point out, you know kelly, it is interesting

02:01:38

I don't I don't I don't know where all of a sudden it went awry other than the fact that we stated something that you just whether it's a young earther young earth position or or covid that you just Became intolerant about and and clearly intolerant because now you don't want to even talk

02:01:56

So, you know, well because it's because you've brought up a topic that I was not prepared for If I had known that this was going to be the topic

02:02:04

I would have brought facts and figures with me But I did not know that this topic would come up and so I did not bring any facts and figures with me

02:02:12

And i'm not prepared to defend that position, but you brought these topics up. I didn't well, okay

02:02:17

You're you're right. I did but I I did not realize that that was where you would go I I really had no idea

02:02:25

But i'm not being intolerant of you I mean you brought it up And i'm not sitting and saying okay i'm done because I don't like what you're saying

02:02:32

You brought it up I gave you it I gave you facts and gave you places you can go you can go and look at the the numbers of the death rate around the world

02:02:42

And see the statisticals and can I do that and come back here and and have an answer for you in one minute?

02:02:48

No, I can't. No, I didn't say within a minute. All right, so I can't possibly defend that I wasn't

02:02:53

I wasn't asking you to defend I was just I was stating I was stating a different point of view And yeah, and and you're entitled to your point of view.

02:03:01

I told you that but I wasn't being intolerant of you It is okay. Well, you didn't say what I like i'm gonna shut you down So how have

02:03:08

I shut you down? You're able to talk. I haven't shut you down. No, you're like, okay, that's it I'm done.

02:03:13

I'm leaving I you know That that's being intolerant Okay, whatever

02:03:19

All right. Well with that, uh Not the best way to end the show.

02:03:25

Um but You know, um I guess We uh, we put bill was bill ended up walking out last week uh,

02:03:35

I I should I should state for for the record a lot of folks were thinking bill was Uncomfortable.

02:03:41

He actually said he he walked out for drama. So he wasn't doing it for for uh, because he was being convicted or anything else um

02:03:49

But next week, uh, john harris from conversations matter will be on with drew. I will try to come in late

02:03:55

Uh when I can, uh with some videos, uh, and this will be kind of interesting

02:04:02

Being with how the way this show just ended but we're going to we have some videos of some

02:04:08

Uh, well, they they claim to be preachers or at least in school for ones in seminary.

02:04:14

Uh, but guys who are uh, Making a case against christian nationalism

02:04:20

Uh from pulpits and we're going to disagree with them. So, uh, at least i'm sure drew and and john will uh, so Uh, we will see that will be next week again in september

02:04:32

We're going to be having uh, some different topics on the areas of counseling. We're going to deal with Areas, I got to look at the notes again.

02:04:39

I should have had this up um But there will be issues of uh depression um marriage family

02:04:49

Um, let's see children communication So we'll be dealing with the topics of that in this in september.

02:04:57

So that's what's coming up in the show kelly, thank you for coming in I do appreciate it I Sort of enjoyed most of the conversation

02:05:05

Uh, not sure what happened at the end, but I did enjoy the conversation And hope we can continue more

02:05:11

And that we'd be able to continue having more conversations So thanks for coming in Thanks for having me and for folks remember to strive to make today internal day for the glory of god and we'll see you next week