Worship Wars in Film? | Rapp Report Weekly 0023 | Striving for Eternity

Warning, warning, warning. We have to make a announcement and we are not trying to do clickbait.

I know that there was something that happened this past week with the podcast. We need to explain that before playing today's episode.

We have a very, very special podcast coming soon.

We had recorded, I had set it all up, I accidentally dropped it early because I didn't schedule it.

It was supposed to drop this Sunday. It did not. It actually dropped, well, for 3 a .m.

Friday morning when I finished editing it. Mistake. I should have just taken it down immediately, but I figured, well, hey, what's the big deal?

It was out. Might as well just let it go. We were planning to do it early. Well, the big deal is, well, the statement's not 100 % done yet and therefore the podcast was taken down and it will come out in a future podcast.

We are not trying to do clickbait to get you to listen to this one, though this week's episode is also very important with a different guest that I want you to listen to.

But I did want to clarify in case you've been seeing that I will be having a big announcement.

The announcement is still coming. Sorry. It really was not an attempt of clickbait.

It was failure on my part to not properly post it correctly and scheduling it.

Had I scheduled it for Sunday like we planned, then when it was decided that the statement would be delayed, then guess what?

You would have known the difference and we would have played this podcast that we originally had planned for.

This is the one we actually planned for and the one that we kind of dropped accidentally will be in the future. So keep listening.

I hope you subscribe so you don't miss that one because that one is going to be a huge one that you need, need, need to be paying attention to.

But this one is going to deal with a very important topic and the topic of worship and what it is.

And as we speak with our guest, I hope that you will be blessed by this week's rap report.

Here we go. All right. So today on the rap report, we are going to have

Jim seem to be saying a lot. We're having a special guest. This is seeming to turn into an interview show and not so much about harmonetics, but we do have a special guest.

And again, it's because of a timely matter. And we're going to talk about a new film that's going to be coming out with your help.

Welcome to the rap report with Andrew Rapaport. We provide biblical interpretations and applications.

This is a ministry of striving for eternity and the Christian podcast community. For more content or to request a speaker for your church, go to strivingforeternity .org.

All right. All right. Well, welcome back to the rap report. And what we want to do is discuss the topic of worship.

I know I'm just mentioned the evil w word that we should have mentioned in church.

Oh, no. Well, I think by the end of this podcast, you're going to realize that worship is a whole lot more than about music styles that you have in church.

And so I would like to welcome Les Lansphere, who is putting this movie together.

Les welcome to the rap report. Thank you for having me, Andrew. This is awesome. Well, I, you know, you and I have kind of been passing one another in a sense for a couple of years now.

Never really talked before this. And we spoke for like an hour or so yesterday, which was just great.

You know, the thing I picked up is, I don't know if you get this experience with different people, but it was just a kindred spirit on a lot of things as we talked.

Even though you and I kind of disagree on some things, you're Presbyterian, right?

I am. So, okay. There's still a chance for you to repent and. Oh, wait. I became a

Presbyterian about two years ago, so I already repented. Yeah. Yeah. You left the right. Right.

You're a Baptist. And right. And you left. Yeah. I was a reformed Baptist, like a 1689

Federalist kind of reformed Baptist. So that would be deforming,

I think, not reforming. Sure. Sure. I agree to disagree. Hey, maybe by the end of this podcast,

I may. No, we're not going to go. That'll be great. That'll be the next movie. Yeah. Well, it won't actually be the next movie.

Don't worry, guys. Yeah. I know that if I ever become a Presbyterian, Colleen Sharp from the

Theology Gals would probably have a party. Oh, yeah. I'll come to that party. But, you know, there's a thing,

I mean, the thing I appreciate is you and I disagree on some things, but just a kindred spirit when it comes to the truth, comes to scripture.

And that was the thing that really got me excited about this movie that you're putting on.

But before we get to that, let's talk about some of the other things you've already done. You know, you've gotten, you started a previous movie and clearly from the previous movie, we know you try to avoid controversial issues, right?

Your previous movie was called Calvinist. Yeah. So let's talk about that film first.

Okay. I had said to you off air, the name Calvinist probably deterred many people because right out of the gate, many of the people who don't like Calvinism will immediately reject it.

And yet, I think if people didn't see the name Calvinist, they would see the truth of Calvinism halfway through that film before you really start getting into using the labels.

Yeah. Yeah. So there's a couple of ways I could have gone about it. So I've worked in,

I've been a web designer and online marketing and in the film industry and stuff like that.

And I'm also, just in my graphic design in general, I'm a very sort of, I'm not subtle in the ways that I express things and that's just, it's just kind of my style.

So I know how to get people's attention, at least in the way that I put things out there.

And so I could have made a movie sort of like named something about, you know, the truth about Christianity kind of thing like that.

But that name Calvinist is so provocative. I knew at the very least people would look at it, check out the website, whatever, for the sake of the spectacle of the whole thing.

Like what in the world, you know, is this thing? And then on top of that, I have, you know,

I have a podcast and, you know, I have sort of a, my finger on the pulse of a specific kind of generation of Christians.

Let's talk about that. Okay. Because you have a podcast, you have a large Facebook group, you know, as a way of introducing yourself to some of my audience, because maybe folks don't know much about you.

So yeah, we should talk about it. So about five years ago, my friend

Tanner and I, we had, so we were kind of young, restless reformed.

We were products of Mark Driscoll and John Piper and, you know, all these guys. And we knew that there was a lot of other people who sort of had this collective experience of discovering reformed theology through these guys and through these ministries.

And, and it just seemed like there was this, this sort of awakening across America with young people, discovering the doctrines of grace.

And so we decided that we, you know, we're lay people, we just want to have fun.

So we sat down and we, you know, threw a podcast out there. And then we made a fan club for it.

So the podcast is called the reformed podcast. And then we made a fan club called the reformed pub, a fan club might not be the right word, but you know, a place where if you listen to the show, you can hang out.

And then the Facebook group took on a life of its own. Something about that name reformed pub,

I think just really struck a nerve with people like a relaxed, laid back environment to talk about theology. And, and it exploded and that helped get the podcast going.

So you know, it's, it's a successful podcast and a very large

Facebook group, but that kind of gives me this insight into this generation that I normally wouldn't have had because it's my group.

And, you know, if I ask a question in there, people sort of know who I am. So they respond to me. And over the years,

I've kind of really seen this common thread in people's experience in my, in my age group.

So, so that led me to one day I was unemployed and doing freelance work.

And I decided I would, you know, I threw together this little trailer with some voiceovers from John Piper and R .C.

Sproul and some footage that I found on the internet. And then, you know, at the end, like the title said

Calvinist, you know, coming out in 2017 or whatever. And then people freaked out and shared it all over the place and it became this big thing immediately.

And I was like, Oh no, I should actually do this. And so I put up a Kickstarter. I asked for $35 ,000, you know, a few months to be able to travel around and interview some people.

And it got funded in three days. And then I got, I ended up with $82 ,000 by the end of the month long campaign.

So you're independently wealthy now. It is amazing how fast that money goes. I will,

I will tell you that. You're not going to be going out and buying a new private jet? You obviously don't have this figured out yet.

Yeah. What, what, why would you, if I had the money for a private jet, I definitely would not buy a private jet.

Well, what blows me away is that there's people who are preying on poor people, people that can't rub two pennies together.

And they're like, I need 50 some million dollars for a private jet so I could serve

God. And it's like, and people give it. Obviously the guy has enough money. He doesn't need yours.

That's disgusting. Yeah. So, so I took, I took actual airlines to all over the country and I got to interview all of my heroes of the faith and it was such an amazing experience.

And so I put together this book, but so that's another reason it's called Calvinist is because it's sort of the experience of a generation of people who discovered what it means to be a

Calvinist and they themselves embrace that term. So it was like, it was like, I want to tell your story.

And then the, one of the benefits of that is these people who are talking about these crazy ideas with their friends and family and their friends and family think they're nuts.

They can sit down with them and say, Hey, just watch this movie. And it gives a biblical defense and it gives, you know, sort of the experience too.

So they can at least watch it by the end of it and say, okay, I see where you're coming from. It's, you know, you're not, you're not completely nuts.

So I think, I think you're saying that we could either blame or credit you if the young restless and reformed is that, that's, that's what

I'm hearing. The blame is, is, is completely on Mark Driscoll.

Hey, listen, uh, but you know, here's the thing that was really good in the film on, on Calvinist is it wasn't,

I've seen a couple of films where they're trying to promote Calvinism and a lot of times it's, it's like, you know, the bat over the head type of style that was not your film.

The, the, the thing actually that caught me was there's a whole segment on describing what people refer to as the cage stage

Calvinist and why you shouldn't be that. And why you should, you should be careful to avoid being in a cage stage.

What is cage stage? Why is it, why was that so important to put into the film? So I first heard the term from James White, um, who

I got to interview in the movie. And then every time I would ask any interviewer about who coined that phrase, they would always give the credit to someone else, uh, like RC Sproul or James White or whatever.

But so I don't know exactly where it came from, but, uh, the way James White describes it is, um, the cage stage is when you first become a

Calvinist, which is this dramatic for a lot of people. It's this dramatic change in your, uh, entire foundation for your theology.

Like the sovereignty of God is like, it's, you just, you, you realize you misunderstood the way

God works and the way man works and the way salvation works. And so you become really, really zealous about explaining these things to other people because you want them to realize these beautiful doctrines.

And so James White says you would be better served if you were put in a cage for a couple of years until you calm down, uh, so you don't hurt yourself and you don't hurt other people because we do, we do hurt ourselves and we do hurt other people.

Uh, it's, it is a phenomenon that when you first become a Calvinist, almost everyone, um, starts hurting other people in their church and people that don't understand yet.

Well, I think it's more than just the Calvinism issue. I think anytime you get somebody who was either raised believing one thing and a light bulb goes off or that they're, they're thirdly convinced of a, of a different view.

I mean, look, there's, there's folks who are, we could say cage stage on the Armenian side.

I actually just got an email, um, from a guy in Australia that used to listen to Matt Slick and I, when we used to do a show together.

And he, he literally said in the email, he was a militant

Armenian. He hated Calvinism. He hated anyone that was a Calvinist, thought they weren't safe.

He would listen to Matt and I, the way that we would describe what we believe. And he realized as he dig into the scriptures, he's like,

I hate it, but that Slick guy is right. And so he's like, he goes, his question to me, and I'm going to actually,

I'll ask it to you. I wasn't, this wasn't one of the questions I was going to ask you, but it goes along with this. His question to me, um, was, he's in a church, he preaches at another church and he's in the leadership of his church.

And he was like, do I have to tell these two churches where I speak regularly, one where I serve as in leadership, that I've become a

Calvinist? Do I have to kind of come out of the closet? Because he said they would be very much against it.

And my first question was, do they properly understand it? Right. And they don't. So what would be your advice to a guy like that?

He's, he's, he's in a very anti -Calvinistic area. There are no reformed churches in his area.

Should he leave? Should he out himself? Yeah. What would your advice be?

Um, well, I always like to preface stuff with this, like that, or with the fact that I am completely a person and I have no kind of authority in any way whatsoever.

But my - Wait, wait. You do have a Bible, right? I do. I do.

You have the Holy Spirit, right? I do have that as well. Okay. There you go. I haven't been ordained. There's the authority.

Yeah. Uh, so what I would say is, um, like he kind of described the two different situations.

One where he, um, isn't, uh, in formal leadership and the other where he is. So I would say the one situation where he's, um, where he's submitting to elders, uh, as far as, and, and consistently speaking into the lives of maybe even people in a congregation.

I think it might be wise to clarify with them just so they, uh, because you, you might say something and then, uh, it, it ended up causing some kind of division and then you're, you're viewed as a wolf now because you're coming in and you're devouring people, at least from their perspective.

Um, but I, I think that if, if someone, uh, appreciates the truths that you're explaining and they keep inviting you back and you're not wavering on those things, you're not like, well,

I'm in an Arminian church, so I'll preach our in Arminian message. Um, as long as you're being faithful in there, they keep inviting you back and you're not like accountable to them as far as, you know, uh, uh, what, what your, what you have to say then.

Um, then yeah, more, more power to you. But I would think in a church that you're, um, in leadership, they would have some requirements about the things that they want you to believe in order to be preaching and you should respect those things.

Yeah. And, and, you know, there are times I think when, if, if you're a guest speaker, I mean, I, I travel and I speak at plenty of other churches, um, and one of the things is

I will respect the church. I mean, you'll, you'll get a kick out of this because, uh, I once was asked to speak in a

Presbyterian church, uh, for five weeks in a row and the pastor was there.

And so here I am, I'm guest speaker and we had a guy come up. He's a Baptist or from a

Baptist background, I should say he's, he, I don't think he was a believer. Um, the first time visiting, he sees me at the pulpit.

So he's asks me after the service, he says, Hey, I got a question for you. Um, I come from a

Baptist background, but well, how would this church be different than my church that I grew up in, like with the issue of baptism?

And so I just said, well, listen, I'm, I'm a Baptist, but now what reason I did that I'm saying that I'm, there's a difference, right?

What I'm about to say and what I believe because I'm Baptist, I wouldn't hold to some of the views that about Presbyterian would have with, with regards to baptism.

I said, but here's what this church would teach. And so afterwards the pastor who was just a couple of feet away when

I was having this conversation comes over to me and we went and going for lunch and he says, I got to tell you, son,

Andrew, I just wish that people in my church understood Presbyterian baptism as well as you, a

Baptist, brought tears to my eyes. Why weren't you converted?

Yeah. That's it. It's always good when you understand the, uh, the position you disagree with. Well, and that's the thing

I think so lacking with a movie like Calvinist. This is the biggest you I find is I find people who are very much against Calvinism typically don't understand it.

I, there's someone in evangelism circles, a very well known person who has recently in the past, say seven years, five, seven years has come out to where he believes that,

I mean, he basically says, I'm no longer a believer because, and here's the thing, not because I say

I'm a Calvinist, but because I'm on stage and preach with Calvinist. Now he's done that too.

I mean, he's preached with Paul Washer. Like he, I think he followed Paul Washer, like, come on, killed by association works for you too.

But, but you know what I did with him? I actually said, okay, let me just ask you a question. I went through the five points known as, as Tulip by that acronym.

I went through them without using the labels and just gave the definitions and to a tee, he agreed with every one of them.

Yeah. And I said, dude, you're a Calvinist. He's like, no, I'm not.

I don't believe in limited atonement. I don't know. And he went nuts. Yeah. But I think that's a big part of it. People don't understand what it is that they're trying to rip apart.

You find that? Oh yeah, of course. But it's always, those are always nice opportunities as long as, you know, you can have a cordial conversation with people.

It's always great to help them walk through those things and show them the consistency because there is a beautiful, beautiful consistency in the five points of Calvinism.

I remember, so I was in a Calvary chapel and my, one of my, you know,

I had a few friends that I was sort of debating these things with and I was in leadership and someone, we had a conversation and then later on he sent me a

Paul Washer video and the Paul Washer video was talking about, you know, running people through these mills where you popishly declare them to be saved because you got them to pray a prayer with you or they held, you held their hand and said, if you don't want to pray, just squeeze my hand if you agree with me.

And then he says, behold the power of God. And I was just like, what? And then he, then he explained regeneration and the idea of God taking out your heart of stone and giving you a heart of flesh, this miracle that actually is your conversion.

And in that moment, my jaw dropped and all, like I'd been studying

Calvinism to disprove it. And so all five links of the chain just slammed closed because I understood irresistible grace.

And then like I walked over to my wife, bewildered, I'm like, I think

I'm a Calvinist now. And she's like, Oh no, what are we doing?

And she's like, Oh no, my whole life is over. So what did I marry? Yeah, exactly.

So, so in, in the previous film with Calvinist, right, you're, you're presenting an argument for Calvinism as being biblical as something that we should hold to.

But what often comes up when we end up seeing, and I, as I already referred to this one person who

I used to be friends with now doesn't even think I'm saved. Should we, if we believe this is biblical,

I mean, should we just say, okay, if you don't agree with us, let's, we got to part ways. Yeah.

So, um, the, so Calvinism is a product of the reformation and the reformation was a reclaiming of the gospel, right?

So the Roman Catholic church went off the deep end and just continued to be corrupted over the centuries and, um, their practices were insane and their gospel was ungodly.

So, uh, this reformation happens and they reclaim what the gospel actually is.

And the gospel, uh, at its core is, uh, that we are justified by faith alone, apart from works in Christ, in the work of Christ.

So, uh, what Christ has done for us is sufficient to save simply by the instrument of placing your faith in him, you receive all the benefits of salvation.

So as the reformation went on, they continued to reform, uh, other doctrines.

And, uh, there was more exposition of what the Bible was actually teaching about the logistics of salvation and, uh, what this next movie is about is about worship.

Worship was a huge deal, reforming worship. So, um, if we take all of that to mean what it really means, then the way a person is saved is by placing their faith in Jesus Christ and his work on their behalf saying nothing in my hands.

I bring simply to thy cross. I cling. And one of the songs or something, yeah, it's kind of like a song, uh, so that means that even the doctrines, the, you know, uh, beyond the justification beyond, uh, my faith in Christ doctrines that I have also don't contribute to my salvation.

So I don't have to perfectly understand all of the logistics of salvation to be saved.

I need to understand that Jesus Christ died a substitutionary death on my behalf and he gifts me his righteousness by faith.

That's what I need to know. That's what I have to believe and that's what saves us and nothing more. But there is beauty and importance and glory to God when we do more fully understand what he's done for us in Christ.

And I've seen the two extremes. I've seen people that have actually argued that if you don't believe in Calvinism, you can't be saved.

Yeah. I think some misunderstand when people will say, um, you know,

Calvinism is, uh, is to be Christian, you know, but there's, so you have one extreme where people say, if you're, if you don't believe in Calvinism, you're not even saved.

And then you have the other extreme, they'll say, well, if you believe in Calvinism, that's a false gospel. Oh yeah.

And look, you and I disagree. You mentioned, and you're hesitant because you and I talked about this privately yesterday with the reform pub.

You and I have differing views of discussing alcohol, especially in public, but we can get along.

We know where we disagree. We know where our differences are.

We can respect one another as fellow brothers in Christ, even though we may have strong views that are in opposition to one another, but issues of the gospel.

Yeah. And I, and I'm comfortable even going as far as to say that some of those, a lot of those issues even are, if you hold the position on your side versus the position on my side,

I'm not saying this necessarily about alcohol or my, my view of alcohol, but the other person is in sin oftentimes because of their, uh, so let's, let's say baptism.

For example, I'm a Presbyterian, you're a Baptist. If you don't baptize your children, I believe technically that that's a sin because you're, it's a disobedience to a command in scripture.

Uh, how we get to that command is, uh, could be discussed, but wait, wait, wait.

But I'm Jewish. I had my son circumcised. That's pretty good. I'm better than baptism, right?

Let's read Galatians. Uh, so, but, but what I'm saying is, uh, we can eat, so let's call those things what they are and it's okay to, to, you know, you don't just go around saying everyone who doesn't baptize.

I don't go around telling everyone who doesn't baptize babies that they're a sinner, but, uh, technically it's, it's a disobedience to something that I, I am convinced is a command from God.

So, um, we can, we can put things in their proper categories, but not all sin is volitional.

Not all sin is something that, and also there is therefore now no condemnation in Christ Jesus.

So, um, our sins are covered. We do have a mediator who can handle even our lack of understanding in certain areas.

So that gives us the ability to be patient with one another and to take time to explain these things and not get super frustrated, especially with something like Calvinism, because these are spiritually understood realities.

And the battles that we fight are not flesh and blood, but they're spiritual. So if, if somebody doesn't understand a truth about God that I do,

I have to understand that the only reason I know that is because God has been gracious to me to reveal something to me.

And I'm sure he's revealed something else that I don't understand to that other person. And we just, we can pray for each other and we can ask for the spirit to intervene.

Um, and we, you know, do the work of, of helping people understand. But it's not a, it's not a salvation issue.

Yeah. And I tell a story often when we talk about differences and stuff, I was glad that I went to a seminary that I wouldn't agree with my theological positions completely, especially on some of these issues.

It forced me to have to be a lot more specific and argumentative in a good way to make my points clear.

When I would write papers. And I had a professor who basically told me disagrees with my conclusion, but could not argue any of my points.

And it forced me to have to argue better. But one of the things they would, that I really liked about my seminary was you always were encouraged to read both sides of an argument.

And where that really helped me, I remember taking a class on, I'm going to mention the dreaded D word, dispensationalism.

And for those who know that, that term, right. But I was taking a class and literally

I'm sitting there reading and I start reading from folks from the position of dispensationalism.

And this is what I read. Now, don't jump in and answer because you're going to want to, but I'm going to paraphrase this.

But basically this dispensationalist was writing and he says, we dispensationalists believe, or actually first he was basically saying, he's talking about the covenant theology position.

He says, covenant theology believes two ways of being saved. Works in the old Testament, grace in the new.

And the argument for the works is that there's a covenant of works versus a covenant of grace. And so that's the proof that you'd get saved through works in the old

Testament. And now it's through grace. And he says, we dispensationalists believe that ever since Adam's fall, it's always been by grace.

And I said, well, yeah, I believe it's always been by grace from the fall. I guess I fit in the category of dispensational.

Great. Okay. But then I start reading a covenant theologian. And he basically was saying that dispensationalists believe there's two ways of salvation.

And they quoted from Schofield's first edition of his reference

Bible where anyone that understands dispensationalism knows the importance of that study Bible to dispensationalism.

And in there, he surely made it sound like there was two ways of salvation. And so they quote that and say, dispensationalists believe you were saved from works in the old

Testament, grace in the new, but we covenant theologians think that ever since the fall, it has always been from grace.

Wait a minute. I literally pulled the other book off the shelf and I'm looking at it. How many trees have died over this issue?

And they're not listening to one another. They said the same exact thing about each other and about their own position.

And both used extreme examples and misrepresentations of the other side so that they can make their points.

And I was like, man, if they would just sit down and talk to one another, we could actually get along like Christians should.

That's, that's amazing. They said the exact same thing. Yeah. It was, it's, it's, but we see this so often with so many issues and Calvinism would be one and we're probably going to see it on the issue where we should pick up next.

So let's, let me play a commercial and then let's get back to, we want to talk about the new work that you have coming up.

Today, an eternal day for the glory of God, looking for strategies that will help you engage in meaningful conversations with members of the

Mormon church. Well, if so, take a look at sharing the good news with Mormons, a new book produced by Harvest House Publishers and edited by Mormonism Research Ministries, Eric Johnson and Sean McDowell.

Sharing the good news with Mormons includes 24 helpful essays from two dozen Christian apologists, scholars, and pastors.

Pick up your copy at the Utah Lighthouse bookstore or order directly from mrm .org.

You can also order that book at strivingforeternity .org. I was one of the contributors to that book, have a chapter in there on open air evangelism.

And so that then pegs me as the open air evangelist everywhere I go now, but, uh, great men who have contributed to, to that.

And I would say, even if you're not looking just to evangelize the Mormons, if you just want to evangelize, it's a great book because literally what it provides is 24 different authors giving 24 different ways they go about sharing the gospel specifically with Mormons.

But you get a lot of ideas of how to share with others. There's a lot of points in there. Matt Slick has a chapter on biblical reliability.

That's going to work great with atheists. Um, I should, I should actually mention, I never, I don't think I ever said, mentioned this, but you know,

Tony's, uh, when he mentions that we have an expertise in speaking on sexual abuse in the church, it's not that we're experts on sexual abuse.

I was hearing that commercial first time. Gee, I wonder if people interpret it that way. But we have

Pastor Frank Mullis who is, uh, one of the leading experts in Georgia. He basically,

I think he counsels a couple of hundred, like four to 600 sexual offenders a week. So he's got an expertise.

It's the job no one wants. And here's a crazy statistic Les, I don't know if you, if you know this, but he tells me that when it comes to sexual abuse, all these people, churches will have background checks to check people working with kids.

He said that 75 % of the people who get arrested for sexual abuse are first time offenders.

Wow. Yeah. They've, they've been doing it for years and when, and then they get caught and you don't see the repeat.

So he said most of these background checks do almost nothing because it would only catch 25 % of the people who've been caught.

And even of those, many of them know how to hide it better. So it's like, you're, you're just not going to see.

So when we talk about the expertise there, it's that Pastor Mullis actually has some seminars on how to protect the church, what to look for other than a background check because that's really what you got to do.

So, so let's talk about your new film. If I can, I would like to, you know what,

I could probably play this. If I switch this over, I would like to play, you have a

Kickstarter that I think you even mentioned and I want to hold on a second.

Hey, that's you. It's a, it's on YouTube. If you want to pull it up there, I could get, no,

I got it. I just needed to, I just need to share my screen for folks who might watch this. And what we'll do is

I want to actually play it because I did watch this last night and realized this is something that we can, even the audio is going to come through and explaining it.

So great. Let's share this. And then I'd like to talk about your new film. Hi, I'm Les Lanphier.

I work in the film industry on movies like Transformers and Smurfs and Epic. Two years ago, I made a Kickstarter for a movie called

Calvinist and you guys blew it out of the water. Thank you so much for your support. Making that movie was one of the greatest experiences in my entire life.

People really seemed to like Calvinist. So I want to make another movie about the most important thing in the world.

No pressure. From the time of the garden of Eden, there's been a war over worship.

The enemy would do all in his power to rob

God of glory. How we worship influences everything.

Absolutely everything. How does

God say he is to be worshiped? Spirit and Truth is a movie about worship.

I want to encourage the audience to ask three big questions. How do we worship? Why do we worship?

And who do we worship? I want to interview people like Kevin DeYoung and Stephen Nichols and lots of other well -known pastors and teachers, but I also want to focus in on the local church.

I want to talk to people in local congregations that are experiencing the blessings of the regulative principle of worship.

We don't get to invent ways to worship God, but we worship God according to what God has said he wants.

I'm very passionate about this subject and I want to do what I can to help spread that education.

When I made Calvinist, I sought to make a movie that was not just educational, but also really entertaining.

It was my first film and I learned so much from the process. So if you like the balance of style and theology in that movie, it only gets better.

One thing I learned from making Calvinist is that this process takes time. The goal that I set is as low as realistically possible for six to nine months of production.

After Kickstarter fees and travel and other expenses, that number gets whittled down pretty fast. And obviously, the more money that's donated, the better this film will be.

We've got lots of rewards to pick from, so you can support the movie as it's being created. I'm really excited to get this film into your hands.

So if you care about God being honored biblically and God's people being blessed by the means of grace that God has described, please consider supporting this movie.

Sole Deo Gloria. All right, so that's the video that you have on the

Kickstarter. And I think that the Kickstarter is doing well right now.

As I look at it while we're recording, you're over your first pledge amount.

Your goal was really to have two, or actually I think three, right? You have one for, you've met the goal to make the film.

You're now trying to get the funds to be able to get some of the international travel. And then you have beyond that.

So this is to get you to do some of the international travel is the next stage. But obviously, you like to, like I said earlier, you like to avoid controversial issues.

Hey, let's talk Calvinism. I loved how you did that in the beginning. No pressure. So you're going to take another controversial issue.

This is controversial. And in the claim that people say there's the worship wars, as it's also referred to.

But worship is a little bit more than just music, is it not? Yeah, it's funny.

When I put the Kickstarter up, people were excited about it immediately. People who knew me from Calvinist and my other work and stuff, and they started promoting it and sharing it.

But some of the people were saying, this is so great. Les is making a movie about worship music. And immediately

I was like, oh, this is going to be confusing. Hold on just a second.

Sorry, I don't know how to turn this call off. So it'll be confusing to folks because they think of it as just music.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or, yeah, so there's this kind of misunderstanding that people think that worship is that thing you do when the band's on the stage and you lift your hands and you close your eyes and you start soaking in all the sounds and the ambiance.

And that's when you're worshiping God, this emotional experience caused or promulgated by music.

So, but the Reform view and actually, well, not even just the

Reform view, true Christian worship is much more than that. It's at least that corporate gathering together on Sunday, on the

Lord's Day, to lift God's name high, ascribe worth to Him, which is worship.

And I would say that music is the least important part of worship.

It is important. God wants the voices of His people being lifted up to Him, singing His word back to Him, essentially.

But the most important part of worship is that moment when your pastor is standing behind that pulpit with a

Bible in his hands and he is preaching the word of God to you, which is a means of grace.

Literally, God is conferring grace to you by faith as you listen to the word of God being preached to you.

And that is the most important part of worship. And the fact that we have completely lost that.

But people view that part as the classroom part. And then we will worship before and after the classroom part where we learn about God.

And yes, we learn about God in corporate worship. But we are, one, lifting

God high, which is worship. And then there's this back and forth going on where He is conferring grace to us.

So it's a religious ceremony, first and foremost. And we've completely lost that context.

It should, in our minds, look more like a weird pagan religious ritual than a rock concert.

It's actually a religious thing that we're doing. We have to keep remembering that we are pleasing God by worshiping

Him. Well, I'm going to date myself a little. When I was back in college, you probably weren't even born yet.

Think about that. Wow, that'd be really bad. But I remember when I was in college,

I had a friend of mine come to church with me. And at the end of church, I asked him, so what did you think?

And being a Fundamentals Baptist church, it was not what he was used to being a charismatic.

And his comment to me struck me. He said, you know, that was a fine service, but there wasn't really worship there.

And my mindset went to, did you not hear the preaching that was proclaimed? And I said, what do you mean?

He says, well, the music just, I didn't get that feeling of good when

I left. And I went, what do you think worship is? His response was, worship is about feeling good at the music that's sung.

And I said, where do you get that idea? Because I come from a Jewish background. My mindset of worship, and actually it's what the word means in the

Hebrew, is to bow down. If you go and take a video of the Western Wall, you see all the

Jews that are praying and you'll see them bowing their head. When you say the words in Hebrew for worship, you would actually bow.

That is the practice. And I had the idea of bowing. So what I ended up doing is I spent the entire summer, because I was teaching

Bible study at the school, at the college. And so what I did was I spent the entire summer looking up every single reference to worship.

And I ended up putting together a biblical theology of worship, going through the

Bible. And very little of it deals with music. I mean, it deals with, as you mentioned, the proclamation of God's word.

It deals with, you know, when we serve one another is also referred to as worship.

It has to do with music, but you know what it also includes? Giving. Giving money in the church as worship.

It's one of those things that so many people don't realize. And I'm glad you said what you did, which is the word for worship, it actually comes from a word worth ship.

It's someone as worthy. The word would best be explained how I define it is being in awe of one who is worthy.

That's what worth worship is about. It's about us coming in the presence of God and being in awe of how great he is.

It's in the most important thing we can do when we're in awe of that is like the terminology

I'm using is ascribe worth to him. So we tell him he is worthy because that's all you can do when you're in the present.

You can either keep your mouth shut and just be in awe, or the only things you should be saying are to ascribe worth to him.

And that's where it all gets flipped around when our worship practices become about our preferences instead of God's preferences.

And God does have preferences. He actually tells us how he wants to be worshiped. And throughout the scriptures, we see that he cares very much where he even sometimes kills people for worshiping him improperly.

I'm not saying that if you have a rock show in your church, God's going to kill you. But the point is, he cares.

And if it's literally about approaching God, lifting his name high, and doing what he wants, then why does my preference have anything to even do with it?

And I like to say, it's as if I'm married and I love my wife very much.

And if I want to do something to make her happy, and I ask her, what can I do that would make you feel special?

And she tells me, and then I say, okay, great. And then I go out and I get like a video game that I really like.

And then I bring that to her and I say, we're going to play this every day for the next month. And she's like,

I don't want that. I never asked for that. But I just make her do it anyways. Like, I'm not showing love to her.

I'm doing what I want and framing it as if I was showing love to her.

And that's exactly what we do with worship. We want the music we want. We want the kind of preaching and show that we want.

It's all about what we want, but it's not about us. We're literally approaching someone else and we should do it on their terms.

Okay, so some folks may not know the context because a lot of people know, okay, there's different styles of worship.

You have contemporary, you have traditional churches that will actually post. Here's a traditional service at this time.

Here's the contemporary service at this time. And I always find it interesting that the traditional service or conservative service will be in the early morning.

So if you want that, you got to get up earlier. That's for the old people. That's when they wake up. Yeah, exactly. See, I used to like it before I was old.

Now I'm, but you know, here's the thing. This is really addressing a broader issue than, hey, it's the, whether it's traditional or contemporary, or if you just sing the

Psalms, we can get to that later. But the real issue I think is we see services.

I can't even say their worship services anymore. These things that go on in churches where you're describing it as a rock concert.

Everything in that service is about making people feel good. It's nothing more than a motivational speaker who has some motivational prep beforehand.

Right. And they're spending way too much money on those musicians and the fog. Why? Why is it going on?

Why do you need strobe lights and fog machines? And so I want to preface or mention in here, like I know some of the things that I'm saying, you mentioned it.

It sounds like I'm saying we should do worship traditionally instead of in a trendy way.

So there's going to be some misunderstanding, I think, that like what I'm promoting is like, let's do it less fun than we're doing it.

And that might even make it sound like my movie is going to be very boring. But the whole point is there's a philosophy that I think if you embrace, you will honor

God more. And I'm the films that I make like Calvinism could have been a boring movie, too.

But I go out of my way to try. I'm trying to make this stuff really enjoyable because I'm passionate about it.

And I want to express that passion. Well, even with that, let's say because you're saying, oh, people think it's boring.

That is a misconception that I think and I hope maybe you can use this film to overcome because it's not, hey, if it's not making me feel good, it's not exciting.

You know, there are times I would go to church and I'll be honest, I didn't want to be there.

Maybe there was issues where I was not in the scriptures or sinning or something.

I didn't want to be at church. But having songs that lift God up on high and I'm singing them and meditating on them, then hearing

God's word proclaimed, I would walk out feeling great, not because something that made me feel good emotionally, but because I thought about God, I thought about who

I am in light of who God is. And the fact that he'd have anything to do with me really got me to realize how great he is and to be in that, like we're saying, that awe.

And that's the key. It's not, oh, it's got to be boring then. No, it won't be boring if you're having a right view of God.

Yeah, so I've kind of developed, just even doing podcasts for the past few weeks, talking about the movie and like kind of, you know, working through this stuff.

I'm a very visual person in the way that I explain things. But so if you imagine that what worship is, it's imagine that you're sitting in your church and there's, it's a very simple church and there's just the pastor standing there on the stage and behind the pulpit and there's a portal over the pastor's face, right?

And you can look through this portal and looking through this portal is to look into heaven. And what makes the portal exist is, again, the preaching of God's word or the existence of God's word in the service, even the

Lord's Supper, right? The Lord's Supper is meaningless apart from the word. So the word of God is what makes this portal exist.

So we look into this portal by faith because we are listening to the word of God and God is speaking to us.

So that's how we get this view into heaven. So it's all about worshiping by faith and not by sight.

So once we start setting up these distractions next to the portal and saying, there's this guy over here doing this thing and there's this full band that's like really, really talented and we got all these lights and stuff to get you emotionally excited, sensory pleasure, then you're actually distracting from that portal of faith.

So the reason this seems boring to people is because they think the sensory experience is how we experience, you know, the blessings from God.

But what we're actually doing is we're living carnal lives in worship instead of spiritual lives.

And that portal, that that word of God should be sufficient. So if it's not, you actually aren't worshipping by faith.

And the people who are setting up these programs and actually, you know, encouraging this kind of worship are trying to help

God's word because it's insufficient to reach God's people by, you know, all these modern means.

But we have to we should be stripping those things away and saying the word of God is sufficient. It's powerful.

It's active. It does not return void. Yeah, and I used to have told the story several times, you've probably never heard it, but the the thing

I used to do when I was pastoring a church, we'd have a guy who would select songs to sing and he didn't always run them by me.

I didn't require that he would have to because if he didn't, he would know. One of the things

I would do is he'd sing a song and I would point up in the air and then point back to myself, point up in the air, point back to myself.

And he knew very quickly what that meant. Don't sing this one again. But really what it was is asking a question.

Who is this song about? God or me? And the reality is most of them would be about me.

Most of the songs being sung today are about me. Even when it's about God, it's about what

God did for me. And people sit there and go, why is the church in such trouble these days?

I think a big part of it is the church is not talking about God. They're talking about self. Yeah. And I think you're hitting on the nail on the head with this documentary film that you're going to be doing because it addresses the issue that worship is not about you.

I know some people probably get upset when you said that. But I was like, I want to shout amen. It's not about us.

I don't say nobody says that it is. Nobody would say, well, no, worship is about me.

They don't think that what they're doing is about them. They think that what they're doing is their own expression.

And, you know, we have our freedom to be able to express our love for God the way that we want. But we have again, we have to remember that God has never liked invention.

As far as how people are to approach him, that's why the second commandment is so important to God.

He's saying you don't get to make stuff that helps that helps you aid in worship.

I can I'll tell you what to do to worship me because you don't understand how to approach me.

Only only God understands we are sinful creatures and our hearts are constantly going in the wrong direction.

And we might have the best intentions as far as we know, but we're still doing things that are self -centered and pleasing to ourselves.

So we have to trust that God actually knows what he wants. He's been clear enough to communicate those things to us.

And they're good for us. They're actually good for us. That's the beauty of it.

God, God isn't God doesn't ask for the things he wants because, you know, he wants to see us suffer and him be, you know, him smile.

He wants to smile as we smile and obeying God, even in the issue of worship, is good for us.

And it is honoring to the Lord. Yeah, and I think let's speak more specifically to something that you and I probably would have some disagreement about as we talked yesterday, but it's going to be a big part of the film, the regulatory principle.

Now, that's something from your background is going to be important, being

Presbyterian, being more reformed. So can you explain to folks who may not be familiar with that?

What is this principle? Why is it so important when it comes to worship? So, yeah,

I refer to it as a regulative principle. But so what did I say? Regulatory, which is probably just a synonym.

It's probably just I misspoke, which is not uncommon. And it's all good.

So coming out of the Reformation, once again, a quick history lesson. There was, you know,

Luther and and the reformers that came after him that were reclaiming the gospel and a lot of a big issue that they were talking about was reforming worship.

Some of them would say it was the most important thing that they were reforming. So as the

Reformation moved on, there was sort of a split. And you can kind of narrow it down to there was the

Lutheran view and the Reformed. We, you know, we ended up taking that title for ourselves, even though the

Lutherans or Luther himself started the Reformation. So the Reformed view, which is like the

Calvinists. So the Lutherans said, OK, we got to clean up worship.

And the Roman, the Catholics are doing a lot of stuff that is specifically taught against in the scripture.

So let's get rid of all the sinful stuff in in this in worship. And so we will do we won't do anything that God has told us not to do in worship and anything that he hasn't told us that we can't do.

We're free to do. So it's like this free expression in worship as long as God told you, didn't tell you not to do it, which.

I mean, on the surface, once you play that out to its logical conclusion, you can see how today's churches are basically doing that exact thing, although some of them,

I would say, are actually doing sinful things. But but that's the idea. If God didn't say not to do it, we can.

The but the Reformed took a different position and they said that we only do in worship that which

God has told us positively to do, because, again, the one that we're worshiping is one who gets to dictate how to worship.

So we don't have freedom to worship God. We have freedom in a lot of areas of life, but we don't have freedom when it comes to worship because God is the one who is requesting and commanding that worship.

And he also gets to tell us how to do it. And you and I were joking that I actually take that principle when it comes to hermeneutics, how we interpret the

Bible. Therefore, I don't I don't look at it through a covenant lens. See, so but covenants are in there.

Hey, but just because the word covenant is in there doesn't make covenant theology. Right. I mean, that's that's a false equivocation there.

Well, I'm just and actually that's a notion. Dispensationalists believe in covenants. Each of the dispensations are based on a covenant.

So we wouldn't be against covenants. So, but, you know,

I think that the other thing that you and I talked about that becomes an issue is even within people that hold to this principle, you see there's some that hold to it even more and would say we should only do

Psalms because those are those are the that's the hymn book of the Bible. Yeah.

I you don't take that view. Correct. That's correct. But actually that my co -host on my podcast, we have a podcast called we have.

I would say we've you kind of watch the sanctification of two guys over the course of five years, our theology has improved, our reverence has improved.

And if if that's something you're interested in listening to, a couple of young restless reformed twerps becoming confessional

Presbyterians, which sounds like the worst TV show I've ever heard. But so my co -host has he's actually been convinced of the regulative principle or I'm sorry, of exclusive psalm.

That's what you're saying. That's that means that we only sing Psalms in worship because God has not, you know, condoned any other kind of singing.

And because if you think about it logically, God is like every hymn that's written by a man is it's potentially fallible.

And why would we use fallible things in worship when we have a hymn book written by God that is infallible and literally

God breathed? So, yeah, that that is a position and it's it's there's a lot of historicity to it.

It's and I respect the position immensely. I think there's a lot of consistency to it as well.

But I personally am not convinced of that position. And I have I had to alleviate some fears of people who couldn't tell the difference between my voice and my co -host voice on the podcast when

I when I came out with the movie. The other thing people were saying, other than it was about music, is that the movie was about exclusive psalmity.

And I said, no, I actually don't even hold that position. So I'm definitely not going to be teaching it.

And I don't want so there's there's a lot of specific practices you could talk about that different people would lean towards or embrace or even teach.

It's the only way to do the regulative principle. But I'm not interested in telling the average evangelical what kind of instruments he has to have in worship and how many what kinds of songs he's allowed to sing.

I'm trying to be much more general and just present to people that there's a much more reverent, historic and biblical way to approach

God than the way we're doing it in evangelicalism at large.

So essentially, if I'm if I'm hearing you right between these two movies, would it be fair to say that you're doing these films because you want to be able to travel and meet your heroes of the faith?

That's basically it, right? That's a big part of it. Yeah, you want us to support your addiction to seeing meeting your heroes and we want us to pay for your travel.

I mean, a big part of it, it's the beauty of like social media and, you know, like this just this interesting age we live in, which obviously all those things have their downfalls.

But. But. I find myself in a position where I have access to like minded people and and I have been able to demonstrate my ability to do some things with the gifts that God has given me and I'm able to propose to people, hey, you know,

I can sort of speak on our behalf and I know the lingo like I'm I'm in with you guys.

I'm kind of a representative for you in a lot of ways. So if you want to see a movie about this thing that we all care about as a collective community, then help me and we can get this thing made.

And that is something that, you know, like 20 years ago, 10 years ago, there's no way

I could have. I can't make a movie. I don't have that kind of money like we're in the world. How could that even happen?

But the technology like the cameras are cheap and the Internet is accessible and podcasts exist and you can grow audiences.

And so, yeah, I mean, we understand someone's got to do it and it might as well be you to get involved.

So I stand in. I'll go with you. You know, yeah, absolutely.

Let me mention you said about the Kickstarter thing at the beginning and you said I met the initial goal.

I just talked to Conrad. I don't I have no idea how to pronounce his last name. By the way.

Yeah, that one. And WWE. But he's he's in Africa.

So I just talked to him before we started recording and he agreed to be in the movie.

So that means that he's going to come to America a bunch of times throughout the year and I'm going to go to wherever he is.

I'm going to interview him or this is the the next stretch goal on the Kickstarter is if I can get some money because it costs a lot of money to internationally travel.

I want to go to places like Africa and see how this principle that I'm going to be talking about, which we associate with white people in Europe and in America, you know,

Presbyterians, you're all wearing suits and ties and all the stuff or it looks like traditional worship.

What does that look like in Africa? What does that look like in Haiti? What does it look like in China? So that's that's something

I'm really excited about. I can tell this movie in America, but it would be fascinating to see it in other places.

I think that would be a very important part for it to be seen literally around the world because there are going to be differences in different cultures.

Yeah, I think it is important to to highlight that and show it and I will I should say this earlier, but I will have a link to the

Kickstarter. In the show notes, I'll also have a link to Spirit and Truth Movie dot com, which is the website for this currently that currently just redirects to the

Kickstarter right now. So I'll put that I'll just put that one in. So it's

Spirit and Truth Movie dot com. Yeah, I'll get you to the Kickstarter. And so I'm going to put those links in.

But I do think it's important to to go to these places and be able to see the different ways people worship

God in their culture, because I think if it's done properly, what you're going to see in all of them is, as we talked about, you're going to see people in awe of how great

God is. And what I find, not only with myself, but others that do a lot of travels, especially international, you know, it's the poorest places in the world that usually those people have a better fellowship, a higher view of God because they don't have things in this world that distract them or to hold them to this world.

And they look forward. They're the church in China. The Voice of the

Martyrs years ago had an article evaluating the church in China, which is was under great persecution.

How is it still growing as quick as it was? And the issue was that people would just had a view of the eternal.

Yeah, because everything else was taken away from them. Yeah, when you're going to church in an underground church and you're fearing for your life, you can't put videos up on the projector screens.

All you have, all you have is the portal. All you have to do is stare into that portal.

And that's what you want more than anything else, because you depend on God. They're not distracted.

You're absolutely right. Yeah, there is there's someone I had the opportunity to meet, and he is from Korea.

And he basically became a pastor in South Korea. He was from North Korea, and he had gotten a basically,

I think it may be Voice of the Martyrs or someone else that what they did was they would put scripture on balloons and let them go over from South Korea to North Korea.

Whoa. This guy had a portion of scripture. That's all he had that he cut out from this balloon that went over.

And he not only memorized it, he would share the gospel and teach people and was kind of a pastor without any training.

And the only thing he had was this one portion of scripture, and everything he had was through that. And he was in prison, because that was the only passage he memorized.

When he got to South Korea, all he did was preach on that text everywhere he went, and everything was out of the text because that was all he had of the

Bible. And to us, I mean, if I go look up my wall, I have like 30 copies of the

Bible. Granted, they're collecting dust because they're different translations. I don't use them as much anymore.

But here's a guy that was so in love with God's word, all he had was one portion. But he memorized it.

Everything came out of that. This is the thing you're going to see in people,

I think, around the world. And I think that's a reason we do need to help support you to be able to get around the world.

And, you know, look, you and I were joking. I'm not just a... How does that commercial go with the guy that he doesn't have hair?

He's like, I'm not just a... I'm not just a president.

I'm a client. Yeah. Yeah. So I support this, not just in having you on, but I went out and I supported it financially because...

And yet you and I disagree. Like, I don't hold to the principle you want to promote. Which is mind -boggling to me.

And I really, really appreciate your generosity. Because, look, I have a different view of what

Christians should believe, like, I guess. Seriously, I think we should promote this.

Even, like, look, Les, you don't agree with me on a lot of issues, even when it comes to worship.

But there's some we do strongly agree on, that worship should be all about God.

And I think that is going to be the thing that I expect to see come out very strongly in your film.

And that's why I would support it. That's fantastic. So tell us anything else...

We went a little bit longer than I usually try to go on a weekly, but I think there was a lot of good stuff you provided.

Anything else that you would want to share with folks? Anything that you want people to be praying for you with this?

Yeah, I guess that's pretty much all I can ask for, other than check out the

Kickstarter. If you're interested in it, great. If you're not, that's okay. If this is something you want to see when it comes out, if you give $25 to the campaign, you get the digital copy as soon as it gets released, and you get your name in the credits.

So it's like you're kind of just pre -ordering the movie. So that'd be great. But yeah, most importantly, please pray for me because I am seeking to do something that will honor the

Lord. And it would be a shame to fail at that. I'm fairly confident in my ability to make a movie, but I want it to be biblical.

I want it to be God -honoring, and I want it to bless the church. So I would appreciate your prayers.

Well, I think here's what we got to do. You got to get to Africa. I think what you need to do is you need to set up an interview with Vodie Bakum.

And then what I want to see you do is I want you to, in that interview, while the cameras are rolling,

I would like you to tell Vodie that you don't believe his jiu -jitsu belt is really worth it, and you want a demonstration of how good he is.

And we should catch that on film. So is he going to be beating me up? Of course, you're the one asking.

All right, I'll do it. I'll do it. Whatever it takes. Yeah, I think next time he comes to Jersey, I may bring him over to the gym with me and get a beating.

But hey, I appreciate you being on. We'll put the links in the show notes for folks.

I encourage you to go to spiritandtruthmovie .com and check that out. The thing we usually do,

Les, is we play games on this podcast. We've cut some of them out because of different speakers or people we're interviewing, but we won't do a logical fallacy.

But I would like to know, before you go, if you'd be willing to play a game. And I'm going to let you know, the pressure's all on me, not you.

So you're willing to play a game under those terms? I'm still terrified, but yes, let's do it. All right.

It's time now to start the Spiritual Transition Game. Okay, so Les, this is how we play this game.

People struggle with sharing the gospel because once the conversation gets in the spiritual, they feel comfortable with it, but it's getting to the spiritual that people have difficulty.

So we've developed a game called the Spiritual Transition Game to transition from the natural world to the spiritual.

So this is how we're going to play this game. You are going to give me something, and I have to transition to the gospel.

And we don't edit this, so if I sit there and go silent for a long time, it's because I'm stumped.

So far, Matt Slick's the one that has stumped me the most. Not that others haven't, but he's done it the most because he uses words

I don't even understand. But I'm going to take whatever you give me, and I'm going to have to transition to the gospel.

Okay. Alright, you're with your kids.

You just went to go see the new Smurfs movie. I don't even know if there is. I don't think there is a new

Smurfs movie. But that's where you're at, and the movie is terrible.

And there's a lady sitting next to you, and your kids are being a little rambunctious. They're a little bored.

They're full of sugar. And they're drinking an extra large

Coke that you decided to buy them. It's not wise, but you did it.

Because you hurt one of their feelings the day before, and this is your way of apologizing. So this lady sitting next to you is getting really irritated.

And then your child... The movie ends, credits are rolling, lights come up, and your child stands up, and they're really excited about how great it was, and they knock the soda over, and it splashes all over this very irate, angry woman's lap.

You said you like to talk in visual. Yeah. So she just watched the movie she didn't like, she doesn't like your children, and now she's covered in Coca -Cola year -on.

I mean, there's so much wrong with this, just the fact of A, I would never get my kids a Coke. Besides the fact, picturing my 24 -year -old son...

seeing a Smurf movie right now would actually be very entertaining. Okay. Yeah, he's 24 in this scenario.

If I take my 24 -year -old son to see a Smurfs movie, I think he would be rambunctious. And very bored.

So my son has kicked this into her lap, so she's already upset. Which actually becomes a very difficult situation, because now

I want to try to share the gospel with her, and she's already upset with me on multiple levels. The fact is,

I guess, I'm thinking of this, and instead of giving me an object or something, you give me a scenario, which makes it even harder, but good,

I got to work a little harder at this. I guess in that situation, what would I do? I would, other than run away in fear, and hope

I never see her again, which would probably be realistically what I would do. But I'm going to share the gospel with her. You got to see her in heaven.

That's where you're going to see her again. Well, it's not up to me to make sure it happens.

What are you, a Calvinist? No, but I think in this situation, what would

I do? I'd probably, after apologizing profusely, I would probably talk about the fact that she has children that are there.

Children can act so rambunctious, it's so hard when we try to teach them morals, and teach them to behave, it's so hard when they don't do that.

That's going to hopefully get some agreement with her, that she realizes her children are not angels, and they sin.

Because what I'd probably do is turn from that and try to say, look, I'm really sorry about what my son did, kicking that all over you.

If there's dry cleaning involved, I'll help you with that. But here's the thing, our kids, your kids, my kids, they just do things that are not well -behaved, no matter how much we try to train them against their natural inclination.

You know why they have that natural inclination? They have that natural inclination because whether we want to admit it or not, they were born sinful.

They were born with a nature that wants to rebel against God ultimately, and then you and I as parents.

And everyone else that might be in authority because we all want to be our own authority. And maybe you're upset with me right now because you want to be the authority in my life because you're upset with what happened with my child.

But here's the thing, you and I don't get to be the ultimate authority. There's one that actually is the ultimate authority. He's the creator of the universe who actually came to earth as a man, died on a cross 2 ,000 years ago.

We know him as Jesus Christ, and he paid a fine that you and I could never pay. He died on that cross and proved he was

God by raising himself from the dead. Dead people don't do anything. He rose himself from the dead to prove not only that he's

God, but he has the authority to offer you forgiveness of sin. But you've got to turn from trusting yourself or your good works and turn and trust what

Jesus Christ alone did on the cross as a payment of sin. I guess that's how I would do it. And then grab her hand and say, now if you agree with me,

I'll pray. You squeeze my hand if you agree. Oh, sorry. Don't even repeat after me, huh?

Just squeeze my hand if you agree. That's all they got to do. That was awesome. Good job. I love how

Ray Comfort always says, you know, you commit adultery on your wife and you say, okay, I'm going to bring a friend over to help me talk to my wife and they're telling me what to say.

Honey, I'm sorry. Honey, I'm sorry. I'll never do this again. I'll never do this again, right?

Who's going to do that? It was a pleasure having you on. I look forward to seeing this film come out soon and to see it get supported so that you can travel and get everything done that you want to do.

It really was a privilege having you on. Thank you. Thank you, Andrew. This was such a good time. Really appreciate it.

This podcast is part of the Striving for Eternity ministry. For more content or to request a speaker or seminar to your church, go to strivingforeternity .org.