Preservation of the Saints

Welcome to Have You Not Read, a podcast seeking to answer questions from the text of Scripture for the honor of Christ and the edification of the Saints. Before we dig into our topic, we humbly ask you to rate, review, and share the.

Podcast. Thank you. My name is Chris Giesler and with me are Michael Durham and Andrew Hudson. Today we have a question from one of our listeners that says, can a Christian lose their salvation? Would you like to take a shot at it, Michael?

Why Christians Ask Whether Salvation Can Be Lost

Yeah, this is a good question to ask because I think a lot of people, a lot of believers often think about this, sometimes from their own personal meditations as they reflect upon their lives, how things have been going, what they're feeling about their own lives and about what they're feeling about God, and they look at patterns in their own life and they wonder whether or not they're still saved, and if I have lost my salvation, can I get it back?

And sometimes people will have very dear loved ones in their lives who profess Christ and go to church and are a big part of the life of that church, and then all of a sudden, for various reasons, they're no longer there and they don't go to church anymore, they begin to deny God, and what is the brother or sister to think about this one who has left?

Do they think to themselves, well, I guess they lost their salvation. So I would say that when it comes to the Christian experience, this is a question that I think that many believers have, and thankfully God, knowing our frame, our Good Shepherd knowing our hearts and the ways in which we struggle with questions like these, He has made it very clear in the Word that indeed you, as a believer, as one who was a Christian, as one who was born again, having the life of Christ and the the life of the Holy Spirit and so forth, that if you are a genuine true Christian, you will not lose your salvation.

New Birth in John 3 and Ezekiel 36–37

And the way that the Bible handles this and teaches us about this great and wondrous gift of salvation is by instructing us that it wasn't dependent upon us in the first place. So in John chapter 3, we read about this very famous meeting between Jesus and Nicodemus, and we read in verse 1, there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews, which means this man knew a lot about the Old Testament, the Tanakh, the Torah, the Nevi 'im, the Kethuvim.

He probably had most of it memorized, if not all of it. He'd be very, very careful in how he lived his life, because he would want to ensure a very blessed place for himself within that Old Covenant, and he was an authority figure, somebody who would be telling others about what does it mean in their context to be saved, though he probably wouldn't use that language, but it would be the equivalent.

Now this man, verse 2, came to Jesus by night and said to him, Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him. So here's Nicodemus admitting what was admitted behind closed doors, that even though the Pharisees didn't like Jesus very much, they were ready to admit that, yeah, he's obviously from God because of these signs.

So at some point, some of the authorities who opposed him publicly during the day were willing to come to him at night and say, we think you're the real deal, we got some questions for you. And Jesus answered and said to him, most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.

So unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. So Nicodemus begins to reflect upon that metaphor, we should as well. Nicodemus said to him, how can a man be born when he is old, and can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?

And I think that Nicodemus knows it's a metaphor. He's pointing out, he's prodding Jesus. He's like, all right, yeah, I'll go with this. Yeah, he's prodding Jesus, come on, explain. What do you mean by this?

Jesus answered, most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Now he makes a distinction in verse 6, that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit.

So think about the metaphor of being born. What did you contribute to your first birth? Nothing. Now your mother may say, a whole lot of pain and suffering. Nothing good then. Nothing good then, right.

But seriously, you know, you did not instigate all of the needed chain of events to germinate and to grow as an unborn person in your mother's womb, and then schedule the date for your birth, and you did not play the surgeon's assistant role if there was a cesarean, and you did not play the nurse's aide if you had a regular birth.

You had nothing to do with it. And everybody sighs a huge sigh of relief and gives thanks to God immediately that you didn't die in the process, right. That's what it was like on your first birth. Now Jesus picks this metaphor on purpose, because the spiritual birth is of the same quality, in which it's not something where you contribute to it, it's not something that you have enabled, it's not something that you have provided for, it's not something that you have scheduled, it's something that happens to you, it's not something that you do.

And this is directly related to the question, of course, what happens if I lose my salvation, right. So most of the time that question is asked from the perspective of the believer about my own responsibilities and prerogatives to trust in the Lord and follow him, and what if I'm doing a bad job, okay.

But let's reflect upon what does it mean to be born again. It's not about what we do, it's about what God does. So let's clarify that in the text. Verse 7, Jesus says to Nicodemus, there must have been a look of surprise on Nicodemus's face, because Jesus says, "...do not marvel that I said to you, you must be born again.

The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who was born of the Spirit.". So we don't control the wind, we just notice it.

And we don't control the new birth, but boy is it noticeable. You can feel it, you can hear it, it's real. It's evident. Yeah, it's evident. So Jesus says the new birth is evident, but it's not something that those who are born again are in charge of.

Now this may sound to be very novel, perhaps, to Nicodemus. Where is this coming from? I just said that you're, you sounds like to me you you're talking about stuff I have never heard before. In fact, he says in verse 9, Nicodemus answered and said to him, how can these things be?

Jesus answered and said to him, are you the teacher of Israel? I mean basically he's got a double PhD, you know, he's the, he is the go-to guy in Israel as a teacher. Jesus says, are you the teacher of Israel and do not know these things?

Have you not read? Yes, exactly, have you not read? Which is our cue to go read the passage that Jesus is talking about here in John 3. He is referencing something else. He's referencing Ezekiel. So when we go back in our Bibles to Ezekiel, we're going to find some of these same metaphors that Jesus is using to describe the new birth.

So Ezekiel 36 and 37 will be our focus. So we look at this passage in Ezekiel, there are prophecies from Ezekiel concerning a good future, something that is coming up that's going to be much better than what they've been experiencing in judgment and exile and so on.

And when we read in verse, let's go to verse 24, and he says, for I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. So there's a promise, I'm going to return you after being exiled, you're going to lose your city, all these horrible things, but hey, I'm going to bring you back.

That was the promise that Jeremiah had, that Ezekiel had, that Daniel had. And then what's going to happen after they get back to their own land? Well, Jeremiah said, when you get back, God's going to make a new covenant.

And man, it's going to be great. It's going to be a whole lot better than anything that came before. In fact, it's going to be the culminating fulfillment of everything that came before. And you can read about that in Jeremiah 31 through 33.

Well, here in Ezekiel 36, we learn, why does God bring them back to their own land? Because there in that land, there's going to be something that he does. There's going to be a new covenant made. Verse 25, it says, then I will sprinkle clean water on you and you will be clean.

I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you. I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

I will put my spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes and you will keep my judgments and do them. Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers. You shall be my people and I will be your God.

I will deliver you from all your uncleanness. I will call for the grain and multiply and bring no famine upon you, and so on and so forth. So what he's saying is, I will do this, I will do this, I will do this, I will do this.

These are the things that they could not do for themselves. And it was very clear that they could not do these things for themselves. These are expressions that later on we find in the New Testament describing the New Covenant.

Now think about this, if you have a heart of stone and God takes it out of your flesh and then gives you a heart of flesh that beats, this is the idea of going from death into life, right? You have this idea of, you were filthy but now you're clean.

You were dead but now you are alive. You were without God's Spirit but now he's given you his Spirit. That's interesting, the name Spirit. We look in the Hebrew and it's the same word for wind, ruach.

And we have the next chapter about the dry bones, the dry bones. And there's a valley full of dry bones and the Lord says to Ezekiel, son of man can these bones live? And Ezekiel wisely says, oh Lord God you know.

And then God tells Ezekiel to do something that doesn't make a whole lot of sense but he says, prophesy to the bones, preach to the bones, right? And he begins to preach but his own breath doesn't do anything.

Ezekiel's breath doesn't do anything but God, God sends his breath, God sends his wind and he begins to stitch all these bones together and put sinews on them and put skin on them. And then he says prophesy to the wind and so Ezekiel does that and then the wind comes and fills them and gives them new life, right?

So there's another picture. So when we have Jesus in chapter 3 of John talking about water that cleanses you, I'm gonna give you the Spirit, it's like the wind blowing. These are metaphors that you find in connection with Ezekiel 36 and 37 talking about the new covenant, about the new birth.

So I think that's the best place to start when we're trying to ask, can I lose my salvation? I think we have to ask the question, well how did you gain your salvation? Right, yeah. Well and.

That all of that talking about heart of stone and he puts in a heart of flesh, I will give you a new heart. I don't read anywhere where it talks about a process in which your heart returns to being stone again.

Correct. Or where he has to, he has to give you multiple new hearts. It seems like once he's done that work.

You have that new heart. And if anybody is looking for confidence in the work of God and salvation, I would say just just read John 3 and keep on reading past the story of Nicodemus and Jesus down to in verse 13 where John himself, the author, begins to reflect upon the truth of Jesus Christ and talks about how God sent forth his son Jesus so that all who believe in him have everlasting life, not intermittent life, not possible life, but everlasting life.

Just think about the assurance that is in that very famous verse John 3 16. Just think about that. But further on in the Gospel of John we have even more information about what does it mean to be saved and why is it that salvation is not something that can.

The Bread of Life, the Passover Lamb, and Christ's Once-for-All Sacrifice

Be lost. Yeah, in John 6, I saw Andrew turn there. Oh, I've been all up in John 6 this whole time. So there's some questions that people ask of Jesus that I think are very helpful to the discussion, particularly the people that are following him.

He just performed a miracle, he fed the multitudes, and then he leaves and they follow him and he says, you just want more food. That's what you're interested, but I am the, you know, the bread of life.

And in verse 28 it says, then they said to him, what must we do to be doing the works of God? And in verse 29, Jesus answered them, this is the work of God that you believe in him who he has sent. Wow.

It seems that Jesus is saying to believe is a work of God. Yes. That these are the works of God that you believe. So then they ask for a sign. How are we going to know that what you say is true? And they start talking about the manna in the desert.

God, you know, gave us manna. And so, you know, what are you going to do? Verse 32, Jesus said to them, truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my father gives you the true bread from heaven.

For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives you life, gives life to the world. They said to him, sir, give us this bread always. And Jesus said to them, I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me shall not hunger and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.

But I said to you that you have seen me and yet you do not believe. I mean, he seems to be equating if you follow the argument coming and believing as the same thing, coming and believing. And in verse 37, all that the father gives me will come will, you know, will believe.

So it will come to me and whoever comes to me, I will never cast out. Not I might keep, I will never cast out for I have come down from heaven not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me that I should lose nothing.

No part of that is lost. All that he has given to me, that I should lose nothing, all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. And this is, I guess, an interesting with the resurrection question kind of going around.

But Jesus says that all that is given to him will be raised up on the last day and that he will lose none of it.

What do you think, Andrew? Does that answer the question pretty well?

I really do. However, people are going to say, what about those who claim to believe and walk and then depart? We know who we used to think were brothers who've left. They weren't apparently one of us.

How do you bring those two concepts together with what the Word says?

False Professors, Antichrist, and Hebrews 6

Yeah, you think about the unbreakable chain of events and will and decision making that Jesus talks about. He's explaining why so many of them see him but don't believe. They're all infatuated with the benefits of Jesus.

It's like Saul being infatuated with David. He was a big fan of David. He played the music that calmed his soul. He liked that. And he really liked David because David took care of problems in his life, like Goliath.

So Saul was a big fan. And after all, I mean his son Jonathan was best friends with David and so that was cool too. So Saul was a fan of David until it became clear that David would be far more important, far more superior, more glorious, and in fact the kingdom that Saul had belonged to David.

And all that Saul had really truly belonged to David. And once that became clear, Saul became the mortal enemy of David. And in like fashion, many people find a lot of benefits about Jesus. They perhaps find the music soothing.

Perhaps they find certain problems in their life seem to be solved. But at a certain point it becomes clear that everything in their life belongs to Jesus because he's King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

And then the whole thing begins to fall apart. But this is not the same thing as saying that somebody who is saved and born again and a Christian can lose their salvation. After all, Jesus says, the Father gives these to the Son and whoever the Father gives to the Son will come to the Son and the Son will never ever cast them out.

Right? He says something very similar in John 10. So it's certainly not a matter of a matter of a failure on God's side of it. Yeah.

So I have a question in verse 51. So I'm reading from the New English translation. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats from this bread he will live forever. The bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.

Now when I think about eating it's not just one time and I'm satisfied. There's a clear parallel with physical, hey I'm hungry, hey I'm hungry, hey I'm hungry versus this type of food. What is the eating of him?

Yeah.

So when we go back near the beginning of the chapter, here in chapter 6, we read in verse 4 at the background of this discussion, now the Passover, a feast of the Jews, was near. And this is mentioned here at the beginning before all this discussion about food happens and about how they're wanting Jesus to provide them with even more bread and more food and then Jesus begins to to take that and say hang on a second you know this is this is not about physical bread.

This is about myself being the fulfillment of that manna that you all were talking about. I'm the bread that come down from heaven. So when he comes to here and he's talking about the bread that I give is my flesh which I shall give for the life of the world, clearly if somebody were going to invoke some sort of literalistic rendering of this, then it would have to be that some sort of a cannibalistic approach, which the early Christians were accused of cannibalism because of the confusion of...

Sure you know it really does sound like it could be. Yeah but you know it's given for the life of the world and so what does that mean? Well looks like everybody's going to have to be a cannibal now. That's not what he's talking about.

It's in the context of Passover. At Passover there was a lamb that was selected out of the flock. The lamb was to be of a certain age and of pure quality, not a single blemish in it, and it was to be well cared for in the context of the home and at a certain point in time that lamb was to die.

The blood, given the context of Passover, the blood was to be placed on the doorpost of the house and so on to remind them of of how God redeemed his people up out of Egypt on that that tenth horrible plague in Egypt.

But the lamb was then to be cooked and eaten. All of it. All of it. And if any part of the lamb was not eaten, it had to be totally consumed by fire. So the whole idea was on the side of those in the home, it was a total consumption, a total satisfaction in this lamb.

And based on the Passover story, God himself looked upon the sign of the blood, looked upon the sacrifice of that lamb, and he said himself that he was satisfied in that. And in this case it was you could call it one of those like one of the wave offerings in which both God and the people were eating together, but there is complete satisfaction on the part of God and the people in this mediating sacrifice, this substitutionary sacrifice of the Passover lamb.

Now Jesus says this, and again it is a hard saying, especially to Jews who, you know, certainly aren't gonna eat. Eating blood. Yeah, yeah, eating blood and especially eating anything unclean is just unthinkable for them, okay?

But when he says this, it's in the context of Passover. So what is he doing? He is inserting himself in the place of the lamb. He's saying, I am the Passover lamb. Now John, the author of this gospel, he gets it.

He gets it. By the grace of the Holy Spirit, he gets it, right? The people don't. John 666 and many who had been following him, they turn away and they follow him no more. But when you get into the crucifixion story here in the Gospel of John, we read that the soldier, the soldier comes up to Jesus and discovers that he is already dead.

And so what does he do? He doesn't break the legs of Jesus on the cross, as would be customary, to quicken the death of the condemned so that the dead bodies could be taken down before Passover, right?

So what he does is he takes his spear and thrusts it into his side, but he doesn't break the legs. Now John says in verse 35, after the blood and the water came out, verse 35, and he who has seen has testified, verse 35 of chapter 19 of John, he says, and he who has seen has testified and his testimony is true and he knows that he is telling the truth so that you may believe.

For these things were done that the scripture should be fulfilled, not one of his bones shall be broken. A quote from Ezekiel 12 46 and Numbers 9 12, and when you go back and you read that text it says that not one of its bones shall be broken, because those texts are talking about the Passover lamb.

And so in John 6 Jesus is saying, I'm the Passover lamb. In John 19 John is saying Jesus is the Passover lamb. That's the context. And of course you remember Jesus at the Last Supper saying, take each, this is my body.

He says, take drink, this is the my blood of the new covenant. So what is he doing? He's saying, look I am the fulfillment of all of these shadows. We think about the Passover, he is the satisfying sacrifice, the mediator, the only mediator between God and man in whom God is well-pleased and we, by God's grace, are well-pleased in him as well.

So it's not a it's not a situation of it and again that was called the Last Supper for good reason, right? Because the sacrifice that Christ offered up on the cross is once for all time, right? So he is not continually sacrificed year after year, time after time, like the sacrifices in the Old Covenant where Hebrews especially says that Christ is not sacrificed over and over again.

Sacrificed just once. Despite our.

Feelings that we've lost our salvation, there was one sacrifice. You don't have to keep going back, you know, you don't have to keep getting re-saved. It was once for all, for all of our sin. Correct.

There's also an interesting part in John 6 again. Just that whole, that whole dialogue there is fantastic. Read the book of John. But in chapter 6, when the people that were following were grumbling, in verse 60, many disciples heard it.

They said, this is a hard saying, who can listen to it? But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?

Verse 63, it is the Spirit who gives life. The flesh is no help at all. And that goes right back to Ezekiel, the promise of the Spirit. And when he's talking to Nicodemus, the Spirit. Where does salvation come from?

It comes from the Spirit. And who does Jesus inherit? It's the nations that are given to him by the Father. And all that the Father gives to him, he will lose none of them. Right. Yeah, so how then do.

Assurance, Discernment, and the Warning Passages of Scripture

We, biblically, understanding that salvation is dependent upon the Lord and not us. So Jesus is correct in John 10 when he says that we're in the Father's hand, we're in his hand, and no one is powerful enough to snatch us out of his hand, not even us.

Okay. So understanding that we're not saying that people pray a magic prayer, say the words right, have some modicum of sincerity, and therefore they're sure to go to heaven no matter what they do, whoever, whatever they feel, and so on and so forth.

Whatever they believe, they can believe whatever they want to believe, but they're still gonna go to heaven because they said the magic prayer. That's not what we're saying. That's not what the Bible ever says.

I don't see any of that in what we just read. Correct. So there's a, but there's a real genuine new birth. But how do we make sense in our Christian experience, then, of those who seemingly receive the word with joy, with interest, with warmth, but then later on, like when adversity comes?

Sure. So how do we.

Biblically make sense of all of that? I think the parable of the sower, where he sows on the the different types of soil, and it says that they all receive the same things. The sun shines on all of them, but it's the condition of the soil that seems to be different.

You've got the rocky soil, and you've got the soil that has the weeds that come up, the cares of the world that come up and chuck it out. Yeah. The seed is the same in all of them, but the different soil is the condition of the heart, kind of like that stony heart that Ezekiel talks.

About. Sure. And we have warnings about false teachers, wolves, and Acts 20, rising and sheep's clothing that are in and among the flock. We're warned in Corinthians about agents of darkness who appear as angels of light, and we are told in 1 John 2 that...well, verse 18 says, "...little children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many Antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.".

He later defines Antichrist as the ones who deny that the Messiah has come in the flesh, which is of course what is what the Jews denied. They denied that God the Sun came in the flesh. Well, what does he say in verse 19?

He says, "...they went out from us, but they were not of us. They went out from us, but they were not of us. For if they had been of us, then they would have continued with us. But they went out so that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.".

Hmm. Right, so when you, by experience, you see somebody who abandons the church, abandons the faith, rejects Christ, turns their back, and becomes anti-Christ, against Christ. Would you not then think to ourselves, oh, this person, they were born again, they were saved, Jesus Christ died upon the cross for them, suffering the wrath of God in their place, and for their sake, so that they were fully accepted and welcomed to God, and blessed with the gift of the Holy Spirit, so that they were believing repenters, and full of the joy of eternal life.

But then they said, ah, that's enough of that, and then turned off the light switch of their soul, and walked away from it all. Hmm. You know, that's not what the Bible says. The Bible says that if apparently there were some among us, but they went out from us, this was to manifest that they were never of us in the first place.

Yeah. A clear distinction. Yeah. Well, and even people who maybe outwardly have the appearance, because in the parable of the sower, there is a group that receives the word joyfully, and by all appearances, you know, they received salvation, but it doesn't say that.

And I think this passage might come up as a question to that. Hebrews chapter 6, it says, Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ, and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works, and a faith towards God, an instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.

And this we will do if God permits. For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted of the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God, and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm, and holding him up to contempt.

I know people will put that passage forward, and see they've fallen away. Exactly. And so this is one of.

Those warning passages that I think the best way to look at this again, as usual, is just kind of read a little bit broader in the context, right? So now let's think about these these terms, okay? Some who are once enlightened, well, how could you not be?

If you were constantly coming time and time again, and seeing how the world really is in the light of Christ. If you, you know, sit under the preaching of the Word of God, and like, wow, this is kind of cool, and you can kind of see how the whole universe fits together.

Taste, taste the heavenly gift, all right? This is not saying that necessarily you're a possessor of heaven, but that you're tasting the heavenly gift, okay? You know, there are, there's a lot of benefits of being raised in a Christian home.

It doesn't make you a Christian, but what a wonderful thing, let's say, I'm thinking of my youngest, my sixth born, okay? And raised in a Christian, let's say all of his older siblings are believers, mom and dad are believers, and man, he's tasting a lot of heavenly things, even if he's not the possessor of them at the moment.

And it says, partakers of the Holy Spirit, in what way? Is this a possessor of the Holy Spirit, or is this somehow participating in the body of, you know, in a sense of participating in a community filled with the Holy Spirit?

It's possible this is not necessarily talking about a believer. And I've tasted, again, the good Word of God, and the powers of the age to come. Now, in this sense, some will read this, I think Wayne Grudem is one of them, who will read this passage and say, well, you take all these particular descriptors, and you take those very same descriptors, and go shop them around, go look around in other parts of the book of Hebrews, and see if those are definitive qualities, 100%, yeah, that person is definitely born again.

Well, he couldn't find any, and he went broader and trying to find, is this a descriptor that we find somewhere in the New Testament? It says, okay, this person, this is a description of the saved. Yeah, he really couldn't find it.

So his point of view is that, okay, so we're not talking about people who are born again, we're talking about people who are around a lot of people who are born again. Okay, so they're, they are, let's say it in a fancy way, they're Christian adjacent, okay?

Beneficiaries. Sympathizers. Yeah. Now, let's read further, and let's see if that interpretation holds water, given the context. Okay, let's keep on reading. For the earth, which drinks in the rain, that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it's cultivated, receives blessing from God.