An Amazing Eye Opening Conversation with Two Young Mormons

What Is the Gospel?

Did you guys go on a mission trip together? We actually did. You did? Really? Yeah. Where'd you go? Phoenix. Phoenix, Arizona? That's where I moved from, actually, about two and a half years ago. Out here, we planted a church.

Yeah, dude, I lived there for 18 years. I'm happy I'm not there right now. It's hot. It is hot. It is hot. Do people ever move there on purpose?

These guys kind of did. Yeah, I'm about to move in. I love Phoenix. You love it? He does like the heat. And honestly, I do like the heat more than the cold. Where were you in Phoenix? Like North Phoenix, like Peoria.

Yeah, just North Phoenix, Peoria. I was impressed with it a little bit. It's a little colder there. Nice, nice. Gotcha.

So, my name's Andrew. This is Ryan. Hi. We're Evangelical... I'm Pablo. Pablo Kyle and Pablo Sweets. We're Evangelical Christians out here, and we like to get in conversations with our LDS neighbors, right, about the gospel.

So, if I were to ask you a question, like, well, what is the gospel?

I think the gospel is, yeah, it's just like, it's teachings, doctrines, things that you have to follow.

Okay. What are those things you think that you'd have to follow?

You gotta have faith in God, you know? Be able to... Be number one. Yeah, faith in God for sure. You know, act on your faith, whether it's, you know, asking for forgiveness or trying to become a better person.

And then, yeah, just doing his will, keeping his commandments, loving everybody.

Gotcha. Okay. So, the gospel would be that you have faith in God and you keep his commandments. Gotcha. So, the gospel, as described, like, in the New Testament, the gospel literally means good news. And the gospel, from the definition that I've grown up with, is this, right?

It is, I am born a sinner, I inherit the sin of Adam, okay? Also, let's say, let's say, just for the sake of the conversation, you weren't born a sinner, all right? Well, we have God's 10 commandments in front of us, right?

We'll just take one for example, thou shalt not lie. Say, Kyle, right? Have you ever told a lie? Yeah. Pablo? Many. Many. Gotcha. I'd be lying if I said no. So, the book of James tells us that if you have failed on one point of the law, you're guilty of all of it.

Guilty of all of it. And God is a holy, just, and a righteous God, meaning that if I'm a sinner, and before him I have defied his law, that requires a punishment, because he's a just God. He's loving, but he's also just.

That's the bad news, that my inherent position as a human being who has sinned before God, my destination is hell. Judgment by God. But the gospel is this. This is the gospel. This is the good news. Jesus Christ himself, he was eternally God.

He took on flesh and was perfectly obedient to the law. He was born sinless, right? He had no father. He was born from a virgin. Perfectly sinless. Died on the cross. He was a sacrifice, right? Like if we think about in Exodus, when they smeared the blood of the lamb over the doorpost, that was a sign of the sacrifice to come.

Jesus' blood is shed over my body so death passes over me. And my belief in him, purely through my belief in Jesus Christ, his death, bail and resurrection, that I'm now justified, declared righteous before the Father, solely through the work of Jesus Christ.

That purely by my belief in him, I will go to the highest level of heaven and be with God for all eternity. That's the simple good news.

Right? That's the gospel. It makes you feel good, you know? It's like, I'm so glad that Jesus came and died for me.

Yeah, so if we add, though, commandments to the gospel, my question for you, Pablo and Kyle, I want you to think about this for a second. Would it still be the gospel?

No, I think so because God commands them in the Bible. So I would just, I would just say, you know, it's there to help us to become better people. I don't think that they would do that. And so I agree with you that the gospel is, you know, it's about Jesus Christ.

The gospel of Jesus Christ. And like we were talking about, personally, I believe that there's some of those things. You've got to have faith, you've got to be able to be humble, get baptized, and do all these things, which are, at the end of the day, in my opinion, commandments of God.

So I think that commandments are important to his gospel. And I think they are what keep us going. At least keep me trying to be a better person. So I think they do constitute a little bit of the gospel.

They constitute a little bit of the gospel. Okay, what do you think, Kyle? Yeah, I think the same thing. When you say, like, add commandments, what are you talking about?

Perfect question. So the gospel, according to the New Testament, is this. That when I'm justified, declared righteous, Jesus has redeemed my soul. Meaning that I had a debt that I couldn't afford through any of my works.

None of my works could pull me out of the pit. Psalm 49 says no man can ransom his soul for another man because the cost of a man's soul is infinite, right? That you can't ever see death or see Sheol.

So with Jesus, right, and his righteousness, when I'm justified, it literally means declared righteous before the Father. And I'm justified solely through the perfect work already completed through Jesus Christ.

Meaning this. That before the Father, the righteous robes that I wear are Jesus's. Not my works. And if I try to add my works to it by saying that I must do X, Y, and Z, then I'm actually rejecting Christ's sacrifice.

So Galatians 3 says this. Listen, I don't know if you've ever heard this before. It says those who seek to be justified by the works of the law, the grace of Christ has no effect on them. No effect. Because you're looking to add to Christ's completed work as if it wasn't good enough.

Have you ever thought about that? Well, I don't think that I'm adding to, like, him like that. I just think that I'm trying to be, like, over

For clarity's sake, there's, the Bible does command people to do things. But what we're talking about here is in order to become saved. In order to become justified before God. There's nothing we can do.

Okay.

We're saved because of Jesus. There's nothing I can do to save myself.

Does that get you to the highest level of heaven, though? Just your belief in Jesus apart from works? I mean, I think it does. Like, from what I believe?

Yeah. Well, you have to do something. Okay. Exactly. That's where the issue is. Yeah. Yeah, that's, so, I guess kind of what I believe there, like what you're saying is, like, there's not a single thing that I can do to save myself.

It's out of my hands. I've already lied. In the very purest form, I've already lied. It is too late. Yeah. But Jesus made that sacrifice. And because of that sacrifice, I can be saved. But he asks us to do certain things.

Like, he paid the price, and he just asks us to do our best, whatever that is. Because we believe that you're going to be saved. And, like, I'm sure you know that we believe in different kingdoms of glory, right?

Right, yeah. So you're saved no matter what. But there's, like, different degrees of heaven that we believe in. Yeah. And so, like, you know, it's not to say that anyone's worse than anybody else. We're not saying that at all.

But, you know, there's, like, things that God has asked of us. You know, everyone will have the opportunity to accept God. We believe that because we know God isn't just God. He's an equal God. Everyone will have the opportunity to accept God and to, you know, be sealed in a temple like that, which helps us to be able to get into the highest kingdom of glory.

And so it's not like we're, like, you know, I feel like we're adding anything. Because we believe that God has asked us to do these things. It's not like we're trying to take away from Jesus Christ because we know that we're bound by a different method.

And so it's just things that we believe that God and Christ have asked us to do in order to, you know, fulfill their work here on earth. Because even if you take the original Ten Commandments, I've lied, I believe in Jesus, I will be saved.

That doesn't necessarily give me the right to continue to lie. Like, my goal is to continue to try and be better and try and be like Jesus.

I agree with you on that. The New Testament agrees too. And Romans, Paul actually anticipates that because he says that we're justified by grace apart from our works. And he says this, does that mean that we're free to continue sinning so that grace may abound?

No, that's called antinomianism. Christians don't believe that. We reject that. The Bible says that when the Holy Spirit regenerates us, he takes our heart of stone, replaces it with the heart of flesh, and causes us to observe his statutes.

And in that, there's something called repentance. And the biblical definition of repentance is a change of heart, a turning away from what you once desired and turning to Christ. Right? And so, in terms of the highest level of heaven, this is where I want you to really think about, Pablo.

When the Bible has a definition of salvation, it's threefold. It's you are saved, you are being saved with your sanctification, and then the third is your glorification. You will be saved. Meaning that in my salvation, just my faith in Christ, I will be with God in the highest level of heaven.

It's not upkept by my works, okay? The works outflow from my faith in God. I have a heart change, but that's not the root of my justification. It's still solely the work of Christ. Ephesians chapter 1.

Do you have your Bible? I do. Pull this out. This is really cool. We like to go through this because Ephesians chapter 1. Yeah, pull it up real quick, guys. You read it, actually.

I read it. Yeah, you read it, Pablo. Ephesians 1. And it's going to start in verse 3. And just Ryan will tell you when to stop.

Here, let's scoot back here just a little bit because there's people on bikes. Sorry. No, you're good.

Ephesians 1 verse 3. Yeah, and just keep reading. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings and heavenly places in Christ, according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved, in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins according to the riches of his grace, wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself.

That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are in earth, even in him, in whom also we have obtained an inheritance being predestinated, according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will, that we should be to the praise of his glory who first trusted in Christ, in whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also, after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance, until the redemption of the purchased possession, and to the praise of his glory.

Okay, that's good.

Now, I'm sure you guys remember everything that was just said. Yeah. Totally understood all of it. Yeah, that's, when people study Greek, they often start by studying John, and then they start thinking, oh, I'm really good at Greek, and then they move on to Paul's writings, and it just knocks you down.

So, what's happening here in the first two chapters of Ephesians is that Paul is arguing for why racism has no place in the Christian church. Right. We actually were just talking about racism on the way over here, incidentally.

And the idea is he's going to get to the point towards the middle of chapter 2 where he's like, okay, so now we have, none of us brings anything to the table when it comes to salvation. And so, since I don't bring anything to the table, and he doesn't bring anything to the table, we don't offer anything.

As a result, nobody who is in Christ can honestly say, well, I'm better than this other guy, or I did better than this other guy. Right. And so, in this part, what he's saying is, notice what he says in verse 3, and I'll read it again just to reiterate.

He said, Now, the point that he's making in this section of the chapter is he's saying, it's all, the whole package deal is a gift. So, again, once he gets to that part in chapter 2, it's like, I don't, people in our tradition often use the phrase, the empty hand of faith.

Like, I don't offer anything to Christ, just my own sinful self in need of. There you go. That guy. Everybody look and see how cool he is. It's like the, I don't know, the car equivalent of putting bicycle cars into spokes.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, like, so the idea is, you know, he's trying to get to that point, but the first thing he says is, you, and he's referring to just the people in the church in Ephesus. Now, it's not apostles there.

It's not prophets there. Just normal, normal people. People who don't even, probably at this point, have a full New Testament yet. Right. And so, and many of them maybe have never even encountered the Old Testament until they started going to, Gentile believers.

Yeah, Gentile believers. Right. And so, what he's saying here is, these people already have every spiritual blessing. Not just forgiveness of sins. You can go down this whole list and say, it's not just being predestined to adoption of sons.

It's not just receiving, you know, the wisdom that he teaches his people. It's not just being sanctified. It's not just being sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. By the way, that, it doesn't come across super clear in the King James, but when he's talking about the earnest of the Holy Spirit, what he's talking about is something essentially similar to an engagement ring.

It's a promise from him. And the Holy Spirit living in the, like Andrew was saying, we're talking about something that is an ongoing process that will reach its conclusion. And the Holy Spirit is there to remind the believer that, yes, he who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it in the end.

So, the idea is, for the believer, regardless of where you're at, a believer already has every spiritual blessing. What I hear, at least from there, I don't know you guys super well yet, what I hear is something that's not that.

Where you have part of it by faith plus baptism. And then, if you do enough, if you do enough of the ordinances, if you reach, depending on who you're talking to, I don't know where you guys are at with this, some will say, well, if you just do your best.

Others, even higher ups, even prophets in the church have said you have to reach eventually a state of moral perfection. I can give you a quote too with that.

Doctrine and Covenants 82 .7. It says that if you repent of your sins, but if you do that same sin again, all of your former sins will be placed back on you. Doctrine and Covenants 82 .7. I can even pull it up if you want to see it.

So you could spend the next, like if you live to be 90, you could spend every single day until you reach that age, that day when you finally pass away, not lying. And then on that day, when you lie, when you die, you lie again.

All of your past lies will be accounted for you, according to this passage, at least as far as we understand that.

Yep, it's right there on the church website. There's just like a little snippet of it. It says, and now verily I say unto you, I the Lord will not lay any sin to your charge. Go your ways and sin no more.

But then it says, but to unto the soul who sinneth, shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God.

Yeah, I think I can offer some clarification. I think it's talking about, so if you do a sin, right? Yeah. Like, whatever. And you repent about it, and then you do it again. I think it's like, kind of like, he's saying like, oh, like you really weren't sincere.

And so that sin, the same sin, not all of your sins, but the former, that you did commit the same thing, will come upon you again. And you can't be clean of it, you know, and it is what it is. But it's just like, you know, it's just like you weren't, I mean, maybe you're trying, and you're doing your best, and that's good.

But you know, you do what you can.

But there's no, there's no lost hope. Right, so if I follow, actually, this clicking right here, for former, the text it actually brings me to is Matthew 12, 43 through 45, and it talks about when an unclean spirit goes out of a man, says he walks through dry places, seeking rest and finding none.

Then he said, I will return into my house from whence I came out. And when he has come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. So you've repented. This is the LDS organization's interpretation of doctrine.

Come to page 27, okay? He says, then he goeth, and he taketh with himself seven other spirits, more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there. And the last state of that man is worse than the first.

So what is the verse in Nephi where it says, God has given no commandments of man that man cannot follow?

Where is that in Nephi? I think there's a couple of spaces, but I know what you're talking about. Yeah, probably. That's like right at the beginning.

Yeah, I think that's what it is. So think about this, man. He's got a Uber, dude. Andy smells like bacon. Andy smells like bacon? It does smell like bacon. Yeah, what'd I lie about bacon? No, I wouldn't lie about bacon either.

I got my limits. But I'm sorry. Bacon distracts everybody. Anyways, my worry for you, right, is what Galatians says. Those who seek to be justified by the works of the law, the grace of Christ has no effect on them.

What's the third article of faith in Mormonism? I know it starts with we believe. I'll say it for you. We believe that all mankind may be saved through the atonement of Jesus Christ by obedience to the gospel ordinances in principle.

All right? And that's where I have the biggest issue, right, because grace is unmerited favor. It's a gift. It's not anything that you can work for. If you're working for it, it says in Romans, then it's something that's worth your due.

But the grace of Christ is also his righteousness, not your righteousness. What are you thinking, Kyle?

So this is just something that I've considered lately. So I'm a criminal justice major at UVU. Oh, okay. UVU, not BYU. Yeah. Wow. They didn't want me there. But, yeah, so this is what I study. So you were talking about how God is just and he's laid out commandments.

If you break those commandments, you sin, there is a punishment. He's also given us a way to repent, to rehabilitate ourselves, and to seek restitution in these criminal justice terms, like rehabilitation.

Yeah, so what's the rehabilitation and restitution? So that change of heart.

And I think that there are some sins where you can give restitution to someone that you committed a sin against by lying to you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can tell you the truth. Absolutely. We can work it out.

There's restitution there. And I receive, I think both of us would receive blessings in that situation. Oh, dude, absolutely. The relief, healing from, yeah. Confessing your sins to one another. Yeah.

Right, yes. I've seen it happen. Yeah, I think that's a great thing. With the, like, grace is that reason that we can repent, that we can be saved. That we are saved. But God is a just God, and he asks for things in return.

He's given us his gifts, and he asks that we do certain things.

What if those things, though, that's what I'm trying to get to you, pal. What if those things for the restitution, right, was done by Jesus already? So what if it's his works that were already the restitution?

So God goes and he says. But they're not.

But they are. If I lie to you, there's restitution that needs to be done.

Yeah, but we're talking about two men. We're talking about sin before God, right?

So two different categories. Yes, there's still sin. There's still restitution to be had in that sin. There's steps that I need to take for that to be achieved. Like, Jesus paid for that, and I am saved before God.

Well, let me tell you something real quick. So if I were to sin against somebody, let's say I'm 7, 8 years old, and I have, but I've never been able to actually go repent to that person, does God forgive me of that sin?

Am I already forgiven before God?

Yes. Without my restitution before me? Because God is a just and merciful God. Obviously, there's things that we can't change. There's things that we can't fix. You can murder someone. That's bad daddy.

Yeah. There's nothing I can do to that guy. Yeah, that's true. Even their family, you can't bring them back. Yeah, there's nothing I can do to their family. There are certain steps for restitution, and I think the rehabilitation is the more important part, the changing part, that I'm taking steps to be a better person.

I'm choosing not to lie again. I will be truthful with you. And God can see my intentions, and that's what he's asking. There is a law of justice and a law of mercy, and in that law of justice, the law of justice is strict, and God has given us an intercession so that we can achieve that law of justice.

If I lie, I will go to hell. That's it. But God has given us that intercession to reach a point to where I can get there. Jesus already made that jump. Now he's asking me to come up as much as I can. He's already made that jump.

Do you think you've done that?

Like Moroni 10 .32. There's an if-then statement. If you deny yourself of all ungodliness and love the Lord with all of your might, mind, and strength, then his grace is sufficient for you. Have you done that?

That's my worry. Can you do that? You'll never be able to do it. That's my worry, right? Jesus already did it, Kyle. So when we talked about it, you agreed. Before God, you can already be forgiven, but you looked for restitution to your fellow man.

That's great. That has nothing to do with your standing before God, right? Listen, that's my worry. You're never going to be able to obtain something that Jesus already did. And when you seek to do it apart from Christ, the grace of God has no effect on you because it's no longer good.

I see what you're saying.

I think that when you seek that restitution between men, I think that's a step that he asks us to take. Oh, absolutely.

But it doesn't change our standing before God. In the Bible, I would say it doesn't. In the New Testament, what do you want to say? Just a good thought experience, Kyle.

So you mentioned earlier that it would be difficult for you to get restitution against somebody that you've harmed if they die. How difficult do you think it would be for you to gain restitution with them if you were dead?

That's not a threat, by the way. Right. Now you've got to step back. Lots of witnesses. If you personally are the one who is dead, what can you do to gain restitution with somebody that you've injured in this life?

I don't know. Pull up Ephesians 2 real quick. I think the Bible answers this very well.

This is good, Kyle. I like the way you're thinking. Pull up Ephesians 2. Start in... I'll just start with one. Yeah, just start with one. And you, he hath bequickened who are dead in trespasses and sins.

Stop right there.

What does it say? You are dead in your trespasses and sins. Now continue on.

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience, among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sin, hath quickened us together with Christ. By grace ye are saved, and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come ye might shoot the exceeding riches of his grace and his kindness towards us through Christ Jesus.

For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves. And that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

That's good. So, again, the idea that he's trying to get at is that the Jew and the Gentile are on even footing when it comes to salvation. And even, you know, afterward, nobody can say, well, you know, I've...

Even Paul, when he's talking about being an apostle, he says... He doesn't say, well, you know, I've done so much work, and that's why I was chosen to be an apostle. He says it is by the grace of God that I am what I am.

So the idea here is if we... Think of it this way. You mentioned that there's like the three degrees of glory, right? And that people, everybody gets a chance to... Does anyone go to the bottom degree, the telestial kingdom?

Okay, some people do. Some people go to the middle kingdom, right? Some people go to the celestial kingdom. Okay, so if they all get the opportunity to do everything that is necessary to get to that top level, what's the difference between the guy who makes it to the top and the guy who doesn't, such that one made it and the other one didn't?

What did he do?

Yeah, at a basic level. So, like, there's like a telestial... Say the telestial is celestial, right? Yeah. Well, like, we know that if you don't accept God and Jesus Christ, then you'll be in the telestial kingdom, which is still a kingdom of glory, which is way better than what we live in now.

Okay. So that's, you know, that's the difference there. And then in the terrestrial kingdom, people who, you know, did, you know, lived good lives, but didn't make, you know, those covenants, you know, that are very important to us in our lives, like, you know, maybe baptism or something like that.

You know, they weren't born again, basically. And they'll go to the terrestrial kingdom. The celestial kingdom is for those who are born again, and, you know, they're good people who try to be, you know, like Christ.

Okay.

So the difference, if you really break it down, like, way down at the bottom level, the difference between the guy who gets to the top level and the guy who gets to one of the other levels is the guy at the top level was either wise enough or righteous enough to make all those right decisions, to choose to receive the gospel, to choose to do the ordinances.

Because we don't, our decisions don't just come out of nowhere. We do what we basically want to do. Even when we do something we don't like, it's still the option that we think is less sucky compared to the other options, right?

So the difference, really, is one of these guys is either wiser or more righteous than the other guy.

I wouldn't say it's wise or more righteous. It's just, well, like, I'd say his heart has more righteousness than his eyes. Okay.

And that's why he made those decisions. So there's more, like, the condition of his heart is more righteous. Or has more righteousness. Okay. When we talk about just that passage that we read, if that's what Paul means, then his argument against racism in this case, well, racism for them would be more like legalism for us.

Distinction between Jew and Gentile. Yeah, for them it's a Jew and Gentile thing. For us it would be more like just somebody who wants to get puffed up and wants to lord it over other people. You know, look at everything I've done, right?

His argument falls apart if he can say, well, actually, the guy who makes it to this level in the kingdom and gets to spend eternity with God the Father, he got to be like that because not only did Jesus open the door and make it possible so that he can do that, but he actually had enough righteousness or wisdom in his heart to do that.

Whereas the guy who didn't do that, well, he wasn't righteous like that guy was.

You see the kind of problem? I just think, like you said, Jesus opens the door and accepts anybody and everybody, but you got to walk through the door. That's like my thought. You got to go and walk through the door to do this.

So if you're like, okay, Jesus, I understand what you did, but I don't see how it's important in my life, then somebody who is like, oh, I understand what you did and I'm going to walk through this door because I know the blessings that you give me on the other side, obviously the person who does that is going to have more and the person who's like, you know what, no, I didn't want that.

Can a dead man walk? That's the question.

Can a dead man walk? Yeah, if your condition from the beginning is one of spiritual death, like what Paul talks about here, what decisions are you making? What can you do in that capacity? Can you do anything?

So there's going to be, and I'm going into a lot of stuff here, but basically, like I said, everyone will get a chance to hear the gospel and accept it. So whoever died before hearing it or whatever, they're going to get the opportunity with that door right in front of them.

Jesus is saying, come in, and they can either accept it or not. And so if they can, they will have the choice. And it's not like we're boasting what we know or the things that we have because I don't think we've boasted to you guys at all.

No, not at all.

We're better than you guys. It's not whether you are, it's whether you could. Oh, yeah. I don't really believe that I could.

I'm not better than any man. I'm not better than any man. I think that's what they taught me in the church. I'm not better than anybody. I'm saved by grace, and I know that it's only through Jesus Christ that I'm saved.

But I don't think I'm going to get punished for doing more good than just the minimum.

But think about it again. When I talked about salvation, like the New Testament definition of it, and through belief alone, meaning that through my faith alone in Jesus Christ and purely his work of walking up that cross and being sinless his whole life is what places me to be with God for all eternity.

That it's not my baptism. It's not being sealed in the temple for all time and eternity. It's not a tithe of a specific amount. It's purely through my faith. Again, good works will follow from my faith, but none of that gets me to the highest spot.

So in Galatians 1, it tells us Paul warns the church in Galatia. Do you know what the issue is in the church in Galatia at that time? I don't. So the context is that Paul's gotten here, that there are people called Judaizers who are speaking to Gentiles who want to become Christians.

And if you're checking out, don't check out yet. It's really good. He's speaking to people who are Gentiles who want to become Christians, and the Judaizers are telling him this. No, you can be Christians.

You can have the grace of Christ.

Oh, yeah, Jesus really is the Messiah, sure.

He's the Messiah, yeah. He's like, but this is what you have to do first in order for that grace to be sufficient for you. You must be circumcised. You must be circumcised. You have to become part of the mosaic.

They would have the same argument you would have. They would say, no, no, no, no. It's because of my love for Jesus now that I'm going to make myself be circumcised or you need to as a Gentile. But you know what Paul says?

He says, whoa, all right. If you think that your circumcision saves you, he goes as far to say in the text, you might as well cut your member off. You might as well cut your member off. Again, Galatians 3.

You seek to be justified by the works of the law. The grace of Christ has no effect on you. And part of the conversation, why it always gets to are you saved by grace or how do you have salvation, I think it stems from something even deeper.

I think the gospel is different according to the LDS than it is to, let's say, biblical Christianity for one big reason. I think it's because there's a different God that's being worshipped. And that might be hard to hear, right?

So why do you think, Kyle or Pablo, why do you think I may believe that we worship a different God? You went on your mission. You talked to many people.

Can I just say something else? Yeah, dude. I want to hear it. Because like, I don't know, like I see what you're saying and I understand everything. And like, yeah, we're saved by grace. But, so Christ, like you were saying earlier, it's like whether you could boast.