An Amazing Eye Opening Conversation with Two Young Mormons

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September 8, 2023

You do not want to miss this conversation. We thoroughly enjoyed conversing with these two men, they are great guys. However, we begin the discussion by asking a simple question. What is the Gospel and what happens next is An Amazing Eye Opening Conversation with Two Young Mormons. Please pray for them. ALSO I KEPT SAYING GALATIANS 3, I MEANT GALATIANS 2:21. Forgive me.

00:00: Did you guys go on a mission trip together? We actually did. You did? Really? Yeah. Where'd you go?
00:05: Phoenix. Phoenix, Arizona? That's where I moved from, actually, about two and a half years ago. Out here, we planted a church.
00:11: Yeah, dude, I lived there for 18 years. I'm happy I'm not there right now. It's hot. It is hot.
00:17: It is hot. Do people ever move there on purpose? These guys kind of did. Yeah, I'm about to. I love
00:22: Phoenix. You love it? He does like the heat. And honestly, I do like the heat more than the cold. Where were you in Phoenix?
00:29: Like North Phoenix, like Peoria. Yeah, just North Phoenix, Peoria. I was impressed with it a little bit.
00:35: Nice. Gotcha. So, my name's Andrew. This is Ryan. Hi. We're evangelical...
00:42: I'm Pablo. Pablo Kyle and Pablo Sweets. We're evangelical Christians out here, and we like to get in conversations with our
00:48: LDS neighbors, right? About the gospel. So, if I were to ask you a question, like, well, what is the gospel?
01:00: It's just like, it's teaching. What are those things you think that you'd have to follow?
01:10: You gotta have faith in God, you know? Be able to... Be number one. Yeah, faith in God, for sure.
01:17: You know, act on your faith, whether it's, you know, asking for forgiveness or trying to become a better person. But yeah, just doing
01:24: His will, keeping His commandments, loving everybody. Gotcha. Okay. So, the gospel would be that you have faith in God, and you keep
01:33: His commandments. Gotcha. So, the gospel, as described, like, in the
01:39: New Testament, the gospel literally means good news. And the gospel, from the definition that I've grown up with, is this, right?
01:48: Is, I am born a sinner. I inherit the sin of Adam. Okay? Also, let's say, let's say, just for the sake of the conversation, you weren't born a sinner.
01:58: All right? Well, we have God's ten commandments in front of us, right? We'll just take one, for example, thou shalt not lie.
02:05: Kyle, right? Have you ever told a lie? Yeah. Pablo?
02:11: Many. Many. Gotcha. So, the book of James tells us that if you have failed on one point of the law, you're guilty of all of it.
02:21: Guilty of all of it. God is a holy, just, and righteous God, meaning that if I'm a sinner, and before Him I have defied
02:28: His law, that requires a punishment, because He's a just God. He's loving, but He's also just.
02:35: That's the bad news, that my inherent position as a human being who has sinned before God, my destination is hell.
02:42: Judgment by God. But the gospel is this. This is the gospel. This is the good news. Jesus Christ Himself, He was eternally
02:50: God. He took on flesh and was perfectly obedient to the law. He was born sinless, right?
02:57: He had no father. He was born from a virgin. Perfectly sinless.
03:02: Died on the cross. He was a sacrifice, right? Like, if we think about Exodus, when they smeared the blood of the
03:08: Lamb over the doorpost, that was a sign of the sacrifice to come. Jesus' blood is shed over my body, so death passes over me, and my belief in Him, purely through my belief in Jesus Christ, His death, burial, and resurrection, that I'm now justified, declared righteous before the
03:25: Father, solely through the work of Jesus Christ. That purely by my belief in Him, I will go to the highest level of heaven, and be with God for all eternity.
03:35: That's the simple good news. Right? That's the gospel. Makes you feel good, you know? It's like, I'm so glad that Jesus came and died for me.
03:42: Yeah. So, if we add, though, commandments to the gospel, my question for you,
03:49: Pablo and Kyle, I want you to think about this for a second. Would it still be the gospel? I think so, because God commands them in the
03:59: Bible, so I would just say, you know, it's there to help us to become better people.
04:04: I don't care if they don't believe in God. And so, I agree with you that the gospel is, you know, it's about Jesus Christ.
04:15: The gospel of Jesus Christ. And like we were talking about, personally, I believe that there's some of those things. You've got to have faith, you've got to be able to be humble, and get baptized, and do all these things.
04:26: Which are, at the end of the day, in my opinion, commandments of God. So I think that commandments are important to His gospel.
04:33: And I think they are what keep us, at least keep me trying to be a better person. So I think they do constitute a little bit of the gospel.
04:40: They constitute a little bit of the gospel. Okay. What do you think, Kyle? Yeah, I think the same thing. Let me say, like,
04:50: I... Perfect question. So, the gospel, according to the
04:55: New Testament, is this. That when I'm justified, declared righteous, Jesus has redeemed my soul, meaning that I had a debt that I couldn't afford through any of my works.
05:07: None of my works could pull me out of the pit. Psalm 49 says no man can ransom his soul for another man because the cost of a man's soul is infinite, right?
05:18: That you can't ever see death or see Sheol. So, with Jesus, right, and His righteousness, when
05:28: I'm justified, it literally means declared righteous before the Father, and I'm justified solely through the perfect work already completed through Jesus Christ, meaning this, that before the
05:39: Father, the righteous robes that I wear are Jesus's, not my works. And if I try to add my works to it by saying that I must do
05:48: X, Y, and Z, then I'm actually rejecting Christ's sacrifice. So, Galatians 3 says this.
05:54: Listen. I don't know if you've ever heard this before. It says those who seek to be justified by the works of the law, the grace of Christ has no effect on them.
06:02: No effect. Because you're looking to add to Christ's completed work as if it wasn't good enough.
06:09: Have you ever thought about that? Well, I don't think that I'm adding to Him like that.
06:15: I just think that I'm trying to be… For clarity's sake, the
06:20: Bible does command people to do things, but what we're talking about here is in order to become saved.
06:28: In order to become justified before God. There's nothing we can do. Oh, like Jesus. We're saved because of Jesus.
06:33: There's nothing I can do to save myself. Does that get you to the highest level of heaven, though? Just your belief in Jesus?
06:39: Apart from works? Uh, I mean, I think it… Like, from what I believe?
06:45: Yeah. Well, you have to do something. Exactly. That's where the issue is. Yeah. So, I guess kind of what
06:53: I believe there, like what you're saying, is that there's not a single thing that I can do to save myself.
07:02: It's out of my hands. I've already lied. In the very purest form, I've already lied.
07:08: It is too late. But Jesus made that sacrifice, and because of that sacrifice,
07:14: I can be saved. But he asks us to do certain things.
07:20: Like, he paid the price, and he just asks us to do our best. Whatever that is,
07:25: I guess. Because we believe that you're going to be saved, and like, I'm sure you know that we believe in different kingdoms of glory, right?
07:32: Right, yeah. So you're saved no matter what, but there's like, different degrees of heaven that we believe in.
07:37: Yeah. And so like, you know, it's not to say that anyone's worse than anybody else. We're not saying that at all. But you know, there's like, things that God has asked of us.
07:45: You know, everyone will have the opportunity to accept something. We believe that, because we know God is a just God. He's an equal
07:50: God. Everyone will have the opportunity to accept that. And so, you know, be sealed in a temple like that, which helps us to be able to get us into the highest kingdom of glory.
08:00: And so it's not like we're, like, you know, I feel like we're adding anything. Because we believe that God has asked us to do this thing.
08:08: It's not like we're trying to take away from Jesus Christ, because we know that we're So it's just things that we believe that God and Christ have asked us to do in order to, you know, fulfill their work here on the earth.
08:18: Because even if you take the original Ten Commandments, I've lied, I believe in Jesus, I will be saved.
08:25: That doesn't necessarily give me the right to continue to lie. Like, my goal is to continue to try and be better and try and be like Jesus.
08:32: I agree with you on that. The New Testament agrees too. And Romans, Paul actually anticipates that, because he says that we're justified by grace apart from our works.
08:41: And he says this, does that mean that we're free to continue sinning so that grace may abound?
08:47: No, that's called antinomianism. Christians don't believe that. We reject that. The Bible says that when the Holy Spirit regenerates us, he takes our heart of stone, replaces it with the heart of flesh, and causes us to observe his statutes.
08:58: And in that, there's something called repentance. And the biblical definition of repentance is a change apart, a turning away from what you once desired and turning to Christ.
09:10: Right? And so, in terms of the highest level of heaven, this is where I want you to really think about,
09:16: Pablo. When the Bible has a definition of salvation, it's threefold. It's you are saved, you are being saved with your sanctification, and then the third is your glorification.
09:27: You will be saved. Meaning that in my salvation, just my faith in Christ, I will be with God in the highest level of heaven.
09:34: It's not upkept by my works, okay? The works outflow from my faith in God.
09:40: I have a heart change, but that's not the root of my justification. It's still solely the work of Christ.
09:46: Ephesians chapter 1. Do you have your Bible? I do. Pull this out. This is really cool. We like to go through this because Ephesians chapter 1.
09:54: Yeah, pull it up real quick, guys. You read it, actually. I read it. Yeah, you read it, Pablo. Ephesians 1.
10:00: Yep. And it's going to start in verse 3. And just, Ryan will tell you when to stop. Here, let's scoot back here just a little bit because there's people on bikes.
10:09: Sorry. No, you're good. Ephesians 1 verse 3. Yeah, and just keep reading. Yep. Blessed be the
10:14: God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings and heavenly places in Christ, according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.
10:28: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved, in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins according to the riches of his grace, wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are in earth, even in him, in whom also we have obtained an inheritance being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will, that we should be to the praise of his glory who first trusted in Christ, in whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also after that ye believed ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance, until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
11:36: Okay, that's good. Now, I'm sure you guys remember everything that was just said.
11:43: Totally understood all of it. Yeah, that's, when people study Greek, they often start by studying
11:49: John, and then they start thinking, oh, I'm really good at Greek, and then they move on to Paul's writings, and that just knocks you down.
11:57: So what's happening here in the first two chapters of Ephesians is that Paul is arguing for why racism has no place in the
12:05: Christian church. We actually were just talking about racism on the way over here. And the idea is he's going to get to the point towards the middle of chapter two where he's like, okay, so now we have, none of us brings anything to the table when it comes to salvation.
12:27: And so, since I don't bring anything to the table, and he doesn't bring anything to the table, we don't offer anything, as a result, nobody who is in Christ can honestly say, well,
12:38: I'm better than this other guy, or I did better than this other guy. And so, in this part, what he's saying is, notice what he says in verse three, and I'll read it again just to reiterate.
12:49: He said, blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us, past tense, with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ.
13:05: Now, the point that he's making in this section of the chapter is he's saying, it's all, the whole package deal is a gift.
13:15: So, again, once he gets to that part in chapter two, it's like, I don't, people in our tradition often use the phrase, the empty hand of faith.
13:25: Like, I don't offer anything to Christ, just my own sinful self. That guy, everybody look and see how cool he is.
13:39: It's like the, I don't know, the car equivalent of putting, you know, bicycle cars into spokes. Oh, yeah.
13:45: Yeah, yeah. So, like, so the idea is, you know, he's trying to get to that point, but the first thing he says is, you, and he's referring to just the people in the church in Ephesus.
13:54: Now, there's not apostles there, there's not prophets there, just normal, normal people. People who don't even, probably at this point, have a full
14:02: New Testament yet, right? And so, and many of them maybe have never even encountered the
14:08: Old Testament until they started going to... Gentile believers. Yeah, Gentile believers, right? And so, what he's saying here is, these people already have every spiritual blessing, not just forgiveness of sins.
14:30: You can go down this whole list and say, it's not just being predestined to adoption of sons.
14:37: It's not just receiving, you know, the wisdom that he teaches his people.
14:43: It's not just being sanctified. It's not just being sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. By the way, that, it doesn't come across super clear in the
14:51: King James, but when he's talking about the earnest of the Holy Spirit, what he's talking about is something essentially similar to an engagement ring.
15:01: It's a promise from him. And the Holy Spirit living in the, like Andrew was saying, we're talking about something that is an ongoing process that will reach its conclusion.
15:11: And the Holy Spirit is there to remind the believer that, yes, he who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it in the end.
15:20: So, the idea is, for the believer, regardless of where you're at, a believer already has every spiritual blessing.
15:31: What I hear, at least from there, I don't know you guys super well yet, what
15:37: I hear is something that's not that, where you have part of it by faith plus baptism.
15:47: And then, if you do enough, if you do enough of the ordinances, if you reach, depending on who you're talking to,
15:57: I don't know where you guys are at with this, some will say, well, if you just do your best. Others, even higher ups, even prophets in the church have said you have to reach eventually a state of moral perfection.
16:09: I can give you a quote too with that. Doctrine and Covenants 82 .7, it says that if you repent of your sins, but if you do that same sin again, all of your former sins will be placed back on you.
16:24: Doctrine and Covenants 82 .7. I can even pull it up if you want to see it. So, you could spend the next, like if you live to be 90, you could spend every single day until you reach that age, that day when you finally pass away, not lying.
16:40: And then on that day, when you lie, when you die, you lie again. All of your past lies will be accounted for you according to this passage, at least as far as we understand that.
16:52: Yep. It's right there on the church website. There's just like a little snippet of it. It says, and now verily I say unto you, I, the
16:58: Lord, will not lay any sin to your charge. Go your ways and sin no more. Right? But then it says, but to unto the soul who sinneth, shall the former sins return, saith the
17:08: Lord your God. Yeah. I think I can offer some clarification. I think it's talking about, so if you do a sin, right?
17:15: Yeah. Like, whatever. And you repent about it. And then you do it again.
17:21: I think it's like, kind of like he's saying like, oh, like you really weren't sincere. And so that sin, the same sin, not all of your sins, but the former that you did commit the same thing will come upon you again.
17:34: And you can't be clean of it. You know, it is what it is. But it's just like, you know, it's just like you weren't,
17:39: I mean, maybe you're trying and you're doing your best and that's good. But you know what? You do it again. But there's no, there's no lost hope.
17:47: Right. All right. So if I follow actually this clicking right here for former, the text that actually brings me to is
17:53: Matthew 12, 43 through 45. And it talks about when an unclean spirit goes out of a man, says he walks through dry places, seeking rest and finding none.
18:00: Then he said, I will return into my house from once I came out. And when he has come, he find it that empty swept and garnished.
18:05: So you've repented. This is the LDS organization's interpretation of doctrine. Coming to you seven. Okay. He says, then he goeth and he taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself.
18:16: And they enter in and dwell there. And the last state of that man is worse than the first. So what is the verse in Nephi where it says
18:25: God has given no commandments of man that man cannot follow. I think there's a couple of spaces, but I know what you're talking about.
18:34: That's like right at the beginning. Yeah. I think that's what it is. So, so think about this man.
18:39: Um, Andy smells like bacon and it smells like bacon.
18:47: It does smell like bacon. Yeah. What I like about bacon. No, I wouldn't mind about bacon either.
18:53: I got my limits, but I'm sorry. Bacon distracts everybody. Yeah. Anyways, my worry for you, right.
19:02: Is what Galatians says, those who seek to be justified by the works of the law, the grace of Christ has no effect on them.
19:08: What's the third article of faith in Mormonism? I know it starts with we believe.
19:14: I'll say it. I'll say it for you. We believe that all mankind may be saved through the atonement of Jesus Christ by obedience to the gospel ordinances in principle.
19:29: All right. And that's where I have the biggest issue, right? Because grace is unmerited favor.
19:35: It's a gift. It's not anything that you can work for. If you're working for it, it says in Romans, then it's something that's worth your due.
19:42: But the grace of Christ is also his righteousness, not your righteousness.
19:49: What do you think? Um, so this is just something that I, um, I've considered lately.
19:57: Yeah. So I, I'm a criminal justice major at UVU. Oh, okay. UVU not
20:02: BYU. Yeah. Wow. They didn't want me. But, uh, yeah, so this is like, this is what
20:08: I studied. Um, so you were talking about how
20:14: God is just and he's laid out commandments.
20:21: If you break those commandments, you sin. He's also given us a way to rehabilitate ourselves and to seek restitution.
20:42: These are criminal justice terms, like rehabilitation. Yeah. So, so what's the rehabilitation and restitution?
20:49: So that change of heart. And there are, I mean, I think that there are some sins where you can give restitution to someone that you committed a sin against.
20:58: Oh, of course. If I lied to you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can tell you the truth. Absolutely. We can work it out. There's restitution there.
21:05: And I receive, I think both of us would receive blessings in that situation. Oh, dude, absolutely.
21:11: The relief, healing from, yeah. Confessing your sins to one another. Yeah. Right?
21:17: Yeah. I've seen it happen. Yeah. I think that's a great thing. With the, like, grace is that reason that we can repent, that we can be saved, that we are saved.
21:31: But God is a just God and he asks for things in return. He's given us this gift and he asks that we do certain things.
21:43: What if those things, though, that's what I'm trying to get to you, pal. What if those things for the restitution, right, was done by Jesus already?
21:52: So what if it's his works that were already the restitution? So God goes and he says...
21:58: But they are. If I lie to you, there is restitution that needs to be done.
22:03: Yeah, but we're talking about two men. We're talking about sin before God, right? Yes. So two different categories.
22:10: There's still sin. There's still restitution to be had in that sin. There's steps that I need to take for that to be achieved.
22:18: Like, Jesus paid for that and I am saved before God. Well, let me tell you something real quick.
22:25: So if I were to sin against somebody, let's say I'm seven, eight years old, and I have, but I've never been able to actually go repent to that person, does
22:34: God forgive me of that sin? Am I already forgiven before God? Yes. Without my restitution before me?
22:41: Because God is a just and merciful man. Obviously, there's things that we can't change.
22:47: There's things that we can't fix. You can murder someone, right? That's bad guys. Yeah. There's nothing
22:55: I can do to that guy. Yeah, that's true. Even their family, you can't bring them back.
23:00: Yeah, there's nothing I can do to their family. I think there are certain steps for restitution, and I think the rehabilitation is the more important part, the changing part, that I'm taking steps to be a better person.
23:20: God can see my intentions, and that's what he's asking for.
23:29: There's a law of justice and a law of mercy, and in that law of justice, the law of justice is strict, and God has given us an intercession so that we can achieve that law of justice.
23:47: If I lie, I will go to hell. That's it. But God has given us that intercession to reach a point to where I can get out.
23:57: Jesus already made that jump, now he's asking me to come up and get out as much as I can. He's already made that jump.
24:05: Do you think you've done that? Like Moroni 10 .32. There's an if -then statement. If you deny yourself of all ungodliness and love the
24:12: Lord with all of your might, mind, and strength, then his grace is sufficient for you.
24:19: Have you done that? That's my worry. Can you do that? You'll never be able to do it. That's my worry, right?
24:26: Jesus already did it, Kyle. So when we talked about it, you agreed. Before God, you can already be forgiven, but you looked for restitution to your fellow man.
24:33: That's great. That has nothing to do with your standing before God, right? Listen, that's my worry.
24:39: You're never going to be able to obtain something that Jesus already did. And when you seek to do it apart from Christ, the grace of God has no effect on you because it's no longer a gift.
24:47: I see what you're saying. I think that when you seek that restitution between men,
24:55: I think that's a step that he asks us to take. Oh, absolutely. But it doesn't change our standing before God.
25:05: In the Bible, I would say it doesn't. In the
25:10: New Testament. What do you want to say? Just a good thought experience, Kyle. Yeah. So you mentioned earlier that it would be difficult for you to get restitution against somebody that you harmed if they die.
25:23: How difficult do you think it would be for you to gain restitution with them if you are dead? That's not a threat, by the way.
25:32: Ryan! Just on a magnified scale. Step back. Lots of witnesses.
25:37: By the side of the road. Officer, I don't know what I'm doing. Dude, you're funny. It's just, you know, if you personally are the one who is dead, what can you do to gain restitution with somebody that you've injured in this life?
25:51: I don't know. Pull up Ephesians 2 real quick. Yeah. For sure.
25:57: I think the Bible answers this very well. Yeah. This is good, Kyle. I like the way you're thinking. Pull up Ephesians 2.
26:04: Start in... Let's start with 1. Yeah, just start in 1. And you hath be quickened who are dead in trespasses and sins.
26:14: Stop right there. What does it say? You are dead in your trespasses and sins. Now continue. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience, among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
26:42: But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sin, hath quickened us together with Christ.
26:50: By grace we are saved, and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come ye might shoot the exceeding riches of his grace and his kindness towards us through Christ Jesus.
27:05: For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, and that not of yourselves.
27:12: It is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which
27:21: God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. That's good. That's good enough, yeah. So, again, the idea that he's trying to get at is that the
27:30: Jew and the Gentile aren't even footing when it comes to salvation. And even, you know, afterward, nobody can say, well, you know,
27:39: I've... Even Paul, when he's talking about being an apostle, he says... He doesn't say, well, you know,
27:45: I've done so much work, and that's why I was chosen to be an apostle. He says it is by the grace of God that I am what
27:51: I am. So, the idea here is if we...
27:57: Think of it this way. You mentioned that there's like the three degrees of glory, right? And that people...
28:02: Everybody gets a chance to... Does anyone go to the bottom degree?
28:09: The telestial kingdom? Okay, some people do. Some people go to the middle kingdom, right?
28:15: Some people go to the celestial kingdom. Okay, so if they all get the opportunity to do everything that is necessary to get to that top level, what's the difference between the guy who makes it to the top and the guy who doesn't, such that one made it and the other one didn't?
28:32: What did he do? Yeah, at a basic level. So, like, there's the telestial, say the telestial and celestial.
28:41: Well, like, we know that if you don't accept God as Jesus Christ, then you'll be in the telestial kingdom, which is still a kingdom of glory, which is way better than what we live in now.
28:50: Okay. So that's, you know, that's the difference there. And then in the terrestrial kingdom, people who, you know, did, you know, lived good lives but didn't make, you know, those covenants, you know, that are very important to us in our lives.
29:06: Like, you know, that they weren't born again, basically. And they'll go to the terrestrial kingdom.
29:13: The celestial kingdom is for those who are born again and, you know, get baptized.
29:20: Okay. So the difference, if you really break it down, like, way down at the bottom level, the difference between the guy who gets to the top level and the guy who gets to one of the other levels, is the guy at the top level was either wise enough or righteous enough to make all those right decisions, to choose to receive the gospel, to choose to do the ordinances.
29:52: Because we don't, our decisions don't just come out of nowhere. We do what we basically want to do.
29:57: Even when we do something we don't like, it's still the option that we think is less sucky compared to the other options, right?
30:05: So the difference, really, is one of these guys is either wiser or more righteous than the other guy.
30:11: I wouldn't say it's wise or more righteous. It's just, well, like, I'd say his heart has more righteousness than his eyes.
30:17: Okay. And that's why he made those decisions. So there's more, like, the condition of his heart is more righteous or has more righteousness.
30:23: Okay. When we talk about just that passage that we read, if that's what
30:31: Paul means, then his argument against racism in this case, well, racism for them would be more like legalism for us.
30:40: Distinction between Jew and Gentile. Yeah, for them it's a Jew and Gentile thing. For us, it would be more like just somebody who wants to get puffed up and wants to lord it over other people, you know, look at everything
30:52: I've done, right? His argument falls apart if he can say, well, actually, the guy who makes it to this level in the kingdom and gets to spend eternity with God the
31:05: Father, he got to be like that because not only did Jesus open the door and make it possible so that he can do that, but he actually had enough righteousness or wisdom in his heart to do that.
31:18: Whereas the guy who didn't do that, well, he wasn't righteous like that guy was. You see the kind of problem, do you?
31:25: I just think, like you said, Jesus opens the door and accepts anybody and everybody, but you got to walk through the door.
31:37: So if you're like, okay, Jesus, I understand what you did, but I don't see how it's important in my life, then somebody who is like, oh,
31:45: I understand what you did and I'm going to walk through this door because I know the blessings that you've given me on the other side, obviously that person who does that is going to have more than the person who is like, you know what?
31:54: No, I didn't want that. Can a dead man walk? That's the question. Can a dead man walk?
31:59: Yeah, if your condition from the beginning is one of spiritual death, like what Paul talks about here, what decisions are you making?
32:08: Like, what is it, what can you do in that capacity? Like, can you do anything? No, so, like, there's going to be, and I'm going into a lot of stuff here, but basically, like I said, anyone who gets the chance to hear the gospel is accepted.
32:21: So whoever died before hearing it or whatever, you know, they're all getting, they're going to get the opportunity with that door right in front of them.
32:28: Jesus is saying, come in, and they can either accept it or not. And so if they can, they will have the choice to believe.
32:36: And it's not like we're, you know, boasting what we know or the things that we have, because I don't think we've boasted to you guys at all.
32:44: No, not at all. We're better than you guys. It's not whether you are, it's whether you could. I really believe that I could.
32:52: I'm not better than any man, you know? I'm not better than any man. And I think that, that's what they taught me in the church, you know,
32:59: I'm not better than anybody. I, you know, I'm saved by grace, and I know that it's only through Jesus Christ that I'm saved, but I don't think
33:06: I'm going to get punished for doing more good than, you know, just the minimum. But think about it again,
33:11: Mike. When I talked about salvation, like the New Testament definition of it, and through belief alone, I'm blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places.
33:20: Meaning that through my faith alone in Jesus Christ and purely his work of walking up that cross and being sinless his whole life is what places me to be with God for all eternity.
33:32: That it's not my baptism, it's not being sealed in the temple for all time and eternity, right?
33:37: It's not a tithe of a specific amount. It's purely through my faith. Again, good works will follow from my faith, but none of that gets me to the highest spot, right?
33:47: Right, so in Galatians, oh, in Galatians 1, it tells us,
33:52: Paul warns the church in Galatia, okay? Do you know what the issue is in the church of Galatians at that, or the church in Galatia at that time?
33:59: I don't. Okay. So the context is, is that Paul's gotten here, that there are people called
34:05: Judaizers who are speaking to Gentiles who want to become Christians, and if you're checking out, don't check out yet, it's really good.
34:11: He's speaking to people who are Gentiles who want to become Christians, and the Judaizers are telling him this. No, you can, you can be
34:16: Christians. You can have the grace of Christ. Oh yeah, Jesus really is the Messiah, sure. He's the Messiah, yeah, he's like, but this is what you have to do first in order for that grace to be sufficient for you.
34:25: You must be circumcised. You must be circumcised. You have to become part of the mosaic.
34:30: They would have the same argument you would have. They would say, no, no, no, no, it's because of my love for Jesus now that I'm going to make myself be circumcised, or you need to as a
34:38: Gentile. But you know what Paul says? He says, whoa, alright, if you think that your circumcision saves you, he goes as far to say in the text, you might as well cut your member off.
34:51: You might as well cut your member off. Again, Galatians 3, you seek to be justified by the works of the law. The grace of Christ has no effect on you.
34:59: And part of the conversation, why it always gets to are you saved by grace, or how do you have salvation,
35:05: I think it stems from something even deeper. I think the gospel is different according to the
35:10: LDS than it is to, let's say, biblical Christianity for one big reason. I think it's because there's a different God that's being worshipped.
35:18: And that might be hard to hear, right? So why do you think, Kyle or Pablo, why do you think
35:24: I may believe that we worship a different God? You went on your mission, you talked to many people.
35:30: Can I just say something else? Yeah, dude, I want to hear it. Because, I don't know, I see what you're saying and I understand everything.
35:38: And, yeah, we're saved by grace. But, so, Christ, like you were saying earlier, it's like whether you could boast.
35:45: Christ could have boasted to everybody that he was better. And that would have made it imperfect. Exactly. And then also, you know,
35:52: Christ had 12 apostles that went and preached and performed great works. And so, it's not, and you guys are here trying to teach us the good word, and we did that for a long time, which
36:01: I would say is something different than, you know, what the gospel teaches. And so, I just feel like there's like a, like,
36:09: I don't know. We use the same words, but we have different definitions. And I just feel like, you know, we're trying to say something.
36:19: Like, it's a big, you know, we don't need to do any extra works, right? Amen. And you guys are here teaching us this.
36:26: But does, would this count as an extra work, is teaching people the gospel? Well, again, yeah, it's a cause and effect kind of thing.
36:34: It's because he has saved me, because he has saved Andrew, now we say, how in the world can
36:41: I not go and tell people about this, right? And what happens if I don't do this as often as I could have?
36:49: Well, I'm still going to be with the fullness of God for all of eternity, no questions asked, that's already taken care of.
36:59: It's, but the issue that I have then with Mormonism, and I see from what you're saying, that it's like you, you know, you're not boasting, and you recognize that that's a good thing to not boast, right?
37:14: So whatever the gospel is, it's got to be something that precludes boasting, right?
37:20: That gives you no opportunity. Paul even says in Romans, he goes to the first few chapters and he's like, okay, where then is boasting?
37:32: He says, it's like, my mouth is failing me at this point. He says, it's excluded, but then he says, by what law or principle in that case?
37:42: He says, by the law of grace and not of works.
37:48: So when we hear something from the church saying, yes, like those
37:56: Judaizers, yes, faith in Christ is necessary, faith in Christ is good. If you want to have a relationship, a meaningful relationship and communion and reconciliation with all of who
38:10: God is, you also have to do these other things. And we're like, well, what we see in God's word is he says, no, it's because you already have that as a guarantee, a guarantee that you cannot lose.
38:28: That's why we then go out and do mission work, if you can call it that.
38:33: That's why we do the things that we do. So it's between what we see in the
38:41: Bible and what we see in, at least what I have understood of Mormonism, which one of these two ideas is better at producing somebody who doesn't have a room to boast?
38:56: And I agree, there's many people from our church that love to be like, oh, you're wrong because of this and that.
39:02: And that's not who we want. And we've all known people, yeah,
39:11: I know, right? It's the bacon that got me all off track. But the issue is whether people do.
39:18: Anyone can be an arrogant doofus. That's literally the exact expression in the
39:25: Bible, arrogant doofus. Anyone can, but the issue is fundamentally what gives us an opportunity for that.
39:36: And I think if we have a system like what's in Mormonism, that gives us all sorts of opportunities. Somebody who ends up in the celestial kingdom versus the terrestrial one can honestly say,
39:46: Jesus, yes, he opened the door and he did so much for me. But the reason for why I'm here and not there is because I have righteousness in my own heart or the wisdom in my own mind.
39:58: And I see what you're saying. We believe that that is because of our trying to follow
40:05: Jesus. It's because Jesus who makes us who we are. So you guys, you guys pray, right?
40:12: You guys read the scriptures, you guys do all this stuff. You guys believe that you're blessed because you do those things? I think there's a fact where when
40:20: I'm communing with God and his word, that his will is revealed to me in his word.
40:26: So it benefits you. Oh, absolutely. But it doesn't earn me my salvation. No, yeah. And I'm not saying it's like,
40:32: I think that's kind of the same thing. That is the same thing we believe. We do these good things because it benefits us.
40:38: But if you're not baptized, sealed in the temple, and tithed whatever the amount is, you will not be in the celestial kingdom.
40:46: And the tithing is also an issue. But you're still saved if you get baptized. But is that truly?
40:53: Because there's a difference between salvation and exaltation. The Bible says there is no difference.
40:59: That's what I'm trying to tell you. That salvation is eventual glorification, right? Meaning that I get to be with the
41:06: Father with an unveiled face of Christ in front of me. Purely why?
41:11: Because I'm clothed in the righteous robes of Christ. So when we think about boasting, I think it'd be better to think about it in this term.
41:17: Not saying, oh, I'm better than this person or that person. But what Paul's trying to say is that. But he's also saying this.
41:23: If you think you can add any one work to justify you and declare you righteous before God, you're now saying
41:30: Christ's work is insufficient when you're boasting over His works in your church.
41:36: And that's a worse position. I think, yes, what you're saying, what
41:44: I can do, will not save me. But in His plan and according to that law of justice, there are things that He's required of us.
41:59: And that includes things like baptism. And that is now the requirement to fulfill the law of justice.
42:10: Because He stepped in, the law of justice requires, I sin,
42:15: I go to hell. He's stepped in and said, I paid for that. You're saved.
42:22: You don't go to hell. You believed in me. You're saved. Nothing you can do about it. But this is now what
42:28: I require. Because the law of justice still exists. There is a requirement.
42:35: There's that faith, that belief. That is one of those requirements. And being baptized is not me doing something that Jesus couldn't do for me to be baptized.
42:49: It's me making a choice to accept His commandments, accept
42:54: His law, and what He has set in place to accept
42:59: His grace. And that gift that He's freely given for us to receive. So what would your argument be then to the
43:06: Judaizer who says the same thing as you, takes out baptism and inserts circumcision? That's not something that Jesus requires.
43:18: How do you know that? That's good. That's good. I agree. How do you know that? In the scriptures that we have, in the words of the prophets that we have, it's not required.
43:29: And on modern day grounds, it's not required of us to do circumcision.
43:35: And we are all very grateful for that. Yes. So I'm just trying to get to the point of how do we know what we know?
43:41: So we all know where we stand on salvation. I think we're good at that. I think you've heard from us what we say the gospel is and what you say the gospel is.
43:51: I want to transition just a little bit because I think it's going to help the conversation and help our minds think. I asked a question earlier, and I really want to hear what you guys have to say about it.
44:01: What makes you think that an evangelical Christian like myself would say we worship different gods?
44:07: Why do you think that is? Because, you know, like you're saying, the god that—obviously
44:19: I think we worship the same god, but the wording I'm going to use is going to affect me. The god that you worship is a god that just requires us to have faith in Jesus Christ and accept him, and he will accept us.
44:36: I feel like there's no—this god that we believe in believes the same thing. He loves us, and he'll accept all of us because we don't believe in his son.
44:46: So you think we have the same god, then? I think we basically—because what
44:53: God requires of us is to believe in his son and to become like him. And I think you guys obviously want to be like him.
45:04: It's not—we all want to be good people, and we follow his example because we're trying to be better people.
45:10: Obviously we'll never be like Jesus because we're imperfect beings, like you were saying. We were already born in sin, basically.
45:16: We're going to sin, and we're going to be imperfect. But as we strive to be like him, you know, doing good works, and humble before God, then, you know, we'll do exactly that.
45:24: And I think that it's the same god that we worship. And, like, I don't know how to explain, like, because you'll probably talk about, like, oh, then why do you have to do these extra things.
45:35: No, we can move on from that. Yeah. Focus on the deity of God. I think that's a good spot to focus on. So I hear what you're saying.
45:41: Kyle, what do you think? I think—I think a big thing that, like, what you were talking about, too, is, like, the definitions.
45:47: Yeah. In the legal world. It's just—I don't know.
45:52: It's all about definitions in the legal world. It's what I deal with all day long. It's almost like you think about it a lot. I work at a law firm, and I'm studying criminal justice.
45:58: Like, this is literally what I deal with all day long is definitions and the words that you say. And the interpretations of it.
46:06: Like, I literally have written six case briefs in the last three months. Like, actual case briefs?
46:11: Yeah. Pretty cool. No, no, no. Case briefs, like, for class. Practice. Practice case briefs. Yeah. So it's, like, off the—
46:17: Gotcha. Okay. Very cool. Where it's the
46:22: Supreme Court reads the same Constitution that everybody reads and makes a ruling based on how they interpret those words.
46:29: So you're taking the Supreme Court class? Yeah. No, it's just, like, different assignments. Oh, okay. It's just—
46:35: I took a Supreme Court class in college, actually. Yeah. Yeah, so I was just wondering. It was very interesting.
46:40: I love it. It's just— Yeah. And even, like, reading when, like, when
46:46: Affirmative Action got shut down. Oh, yeah. Like, Nazi one. Yeah. Like, all my friends were like, what was that?
46:52: What was that? Yeah. So I, like, started reading the—their actual decision. Yeah. It's 238 pages for the decision and 98 pages for the dissent.
47:01: I was like, I'm not reading that. No. No, they don't have any pictures in those either. Yeah, no pictures. Anyway, continue on in terms of that.
47:08: Yeah. Yeah, I think it's those definitions. I think that we do worship the same God as Christians.
47:15: Even there are extreme similarities. I grew up around a lot of Muslims and—
47:25: Wow, in Texas. Yeah, there's tons. There's tons. There's lots of diversity here. Oh. Is it
47:31: Austin? No, Dallas. No, Dallas. I was going to say, because keep Austin weird is a real thing. That sounds kind of weird. Yeah. Austin is very diverse, too, especially because the university is there.
47:37: So they accept it. Oh, yeah. That makes sense. All right, continue on, Kyle. And I had a friend who's
47:43: Hindu. And we talked—he actually drove up when I moved here. Oh, really? So we had a long conversation, just about the people.
47:53: And— Do you think when the authors of the
48:10: New Testament, when they were speaking of Jesus, didn't leave it up to interpretation? They actually meant what they meant when they said it?
48:17: Then they wanted people to know what they meant when they wrote it? Like, if you wrote a letter to somebody—
48:22: Yeah. And they got the letter and you read it, they're like, it's not open to interpretation. It's like, you wrote the letter. Yeah, like I was super clear.
48:28: But then there's our human fallacy. Regardless of who reads it, they are—it's up to their interpretation.
48:36: Like, we can read the same judicial decision, we read the same Constitution, and we have different interpretations of what they meant.
48:46: They meant what they said when they wrote it. And it's just a human fallacy that people will interpret it.
48:53: Gotcha. So I want you to chew on something real quick. So in John 1 .1, John is writing about the deity of Jesus Christ.
49:01: In the beginning was the Word. The Word was with God and the Word was God. All things were created through Him.
49:09: There was nothing that came into being unless it was created through Jesus, okay? And in the
49:14: Greek, it's, All right?
49:20: I'm just going to focus on the first. That's, in the beginning was the Word. And when you're reading the Greek, words have definitions, right?
49:27: And so, in the beginning was the Word. What it means is as far back as you want to go before time, before space, any of it, the word eem that we translate to was means that.
49:37: As far back as you want to press it, as far back as you want to go, Jesus was already there. We know later in John, the
49:43: Word became flesh. So we know that the Word who is being spoken of is Jesus. And then it says, And the
49:49: Word was with God and the Word was God. There's the Word was again.
49:56: All the way far back as you want to go before time and space, before anything, push it as far back. Jesus was already there.
50:03: Prostanteon, which is face -to -face fellowship with the Father. And guess what? Jesus was God. And then it says,
50:12: And the verb for the created things that is used is eganeto, which means these things that were created came into being at an origin of space and time, in point.
50:23: Okay? So, according to John and his letter with Jesus Christ, he is stating that he is the eternal
50:31: God, uncreated, creator of all things. And then Colossians tells us that he created everything visible and invisible, whether thrones, dominions, rulers, or authorities.
50:42: He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. Right? So the
50:47: Jesus of the Bible, and I think this is very important in terms of who God is, he created
50:53: Lucifer. He's not the spirit brother of Lucifer. He's not the offspring of Elohim and Heavenly Mother.
51:03: According to John, the man who walked with Jesus, in his testimony, as a disciple of Christ, was telling us, in John 1, as far back as you want to go, he was there, he was
51:19: God, and he made all things. All. Everything. Visible and invisible.
51:26: Right? So, if I look at the LDS organization, and they tell me, no.
51:32: He's not. He's not. He is the offspring of Elohim and Heavenly Mother.
51:39: And so are you, and you are his brothers and sisters, just like Lucifer is his brother.
51:45: So me, as a Christian, who believes in the Bible, there's multiple other places that talk about the deity of God, if Joseph Smith has a revelation,
51:55: I'll grant continuing revelation just for the conversation. Joseph Smith has a revelation. But if his revelation contradicts what has been previously revealed 1 ,800 years before, through John and the life of Jesus, I'm told to reject it.
52:13: I'm told to, so I won't be deceived. So the reason why I would say we believe that we have different gods, number one is because the
52:20: Bible tells me that. Number two, it tells me in the Bible, if we change who God is, we eventually get a different gospel.
52:27: Because if it's not the eternal God who took the wrath of the eternal God, then you're going to have to add things to the gospel in order to reach that highest level.
52:37: But God says it's impossible. Not only that, God says this. He says, before me, there was no
52:44: God formed, and neither shall there be after me. He says, I am the first and I am the last.
52:51: Beside me there is no God. Psalm 90, verse 2. He's the God from everlasting into everlasting.
52:59: So we're not just talking about preexistence, that Jesus was there for all eternity.
53:04: He was God for all eternity. Right? And he created all of us. Isaiah 45 says he created us from the dirt on the earth.
53:12: And then breathed the breath of life to us on earth. You can read in Isaiah 45 yourself. So, if we have a different God, guys, we're going to end up with a different gospel.
53:25: 2 Corinthians 11, 4 warns us that there will be people who come in, they preach a different Jesus, a different gospel, and a different spirit.
53:31: So when I tell you that we believe in a different Jesus, I'm not saying that I feel like that's true. I'm not saying that there's this ethereal worry.
53:41: No, the Bible already tells me that there will be people who claim different Jesuses. Okay? And we're already in major difference territory just on the question of how many gods there are.
53:52: I noticed when you were talking about wanting to be like God, you kept on using the singular. Like God, not like the gods.
53:59: Like him, not like them. At least my understanding of Mormonism is that you've got the
54:07: Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit who are separate but united gods. They're beings.
54:13: And also, depending on who's in a conversation, they might say, well, some people might have already progressed to the point of godhood.
54:21: Some people think that Joseph Smith did. But either way, you already start with a position of three gods.
54:28: Now, the reason for why this is important is we talked earlier about the three degrees of glory, right? At least what
54:34: I've read in Doctrine and Covenants is that if you go to, like, one degree of glory, you're visited by the
54:40: Holy Spirit. If you go to the next one up, you're visited by Jesus. If you go to the next one up, you're visited by Heavenly Father.
54:48: What the Bible teaches is that that layout is impossible because all three are only one being.
54:57: And that, in and of itself, already puts us, again, in difference territory.
55:03: What Paul says in 1 Corinthians, and if you've read 1 Corinthians? Yeah. Okay. So you know, the whole idea that anyone has, and I've heard it a ton of times, and it's always wrong, that the early church always got it right perfectly.
55:17: No, no, no, no, no. 1 Corinthians. It's wild. But the first thing that he addresses, as you probably remember, is the issue of contention within the church, right?
55:28: Within a single congregation, there's all these differences. The first thing he does is he says, you know,
55:35: Christ is not divided, right? So if believers are having differences on, like, end times belief, like if you want to hold to my beliefs on the end times, or Andrew's beliefs, which are wrong, either one of those, you know, that's one thing.
55:54: But then he says, at the end of when he's talking about why these contentions shouldn't be there, he says, when he's talking about his own time visiting, he says,
56:05: I resolved to preach nothing among you, but Christ and Him crucified.
56:12: He got rid of everything else. He's like, I'm not going to talk about end times stuff. I'm not going to talk about, you know, infant baptism versus believers baptism only.
56:22: No, no, no. He's like, I don't even baptize anybody except for, like, you, you, and you. You know? But he says, once he boiled it all down,
56:31: Christ and Him crucified, which is to say that when you get it right down to the basics, if you boil it all down, the gospel is about who is
56:41: Jesus and what did He accomplish on the cross. That's why we have such an issue with the differences between what the church is saying and what
56:48: Andrew just said. It's not like, oh, we're so upset that you guys serve water in sacrament meeting instead of wine.
56:58: I wish we served water. Wine is disgusting. But it's more fundamental than that.
57:05: It's like, this is a different gospel from what we're hearing from the Mormon missionaries come to our houses, from general conference when that comes up.
57:14: It's a different gospel, and that's why it's so important for us to have these kinds of conversations and keep the slapping to a minimum.
57:22: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I'm just, I was noticing this group over here. Yeah. He's just very contentious.
57:29: The guy that's talking to you. He's like a 5 out of 10 as far as. Man, I'm sad.
57:35: Ah, dude, that's okay. It happens on both sides. I mean, it happens, yeah. I'm like, man, I wish. Because like you're saying, contention is not part of the problem.
57:43: Anyways, sorry. No, it's all right. And we see that actually when we go to general conference because we see the street screechers.
57:51: We see those guys, and we're just like, let's go really far away from those guys so there's no confusion.
57:57: Yeah. We'll go to the bus stop. All right. We'll hang out there. So let me get back to the deity of God real quick, okay, why
58:03: I think it's so important because Jesus thinks it's important. He asks His disciples, I wonder if you're thinking what
58:08: I'm thinking, tracking what I'm tracking. He says this. I don't know why everyone loves to do that right now.
58:13: Yeah, that's good. He says. It's excellent. Yeah, that's great. You guys are ridiculous. It is probably straight pipes.
58:20: He says this. He says, unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.
58:29: So if you believe in a Jesus, just because you say His name, but He's not the
58:34: Jesus of the Bible, you actually don't have a sacrifice for your sins.
58:40: Okay, let me give you a thought experiment. I'll give you a thought experiment real quick. We have a
58:46: Jehovah's Witness who comes up to you. We have a Muslim. And we have Evangelical Christian, okay?
58:53: Coming up to LDS people. And think with me here on this thought experiment.
58:59: Every one of them says Jesus. Okay? So the
59:04: Jehovah's Witness says, I believe in Jesus. You go, okay, well, who is Jesus? He says, well, Jesus is the first creation of Jehovah God.
59:11: He's Michael the Archangel. He took on flesh. He died on a stake and resurrected as a spirit creature. Okay?
59:17: Then you talk to a Muslim. And the Muslim says, Jesus was a great prophet. He never rose from the dead, right?
59:24: I believe they don't even think He died on a cross. Yeah, most of them. And then we have the Evangelical Christian who says, no,
59:30: Jesus Christ is fully God, from everlasting into everlasting. He took on flesh, was sinless, perfectly obedient to the law, died the death that I deserve, and my belief in Him justifies me, declares me righteous before the
59:42: Father. He resurrected from the grave, defeating death. And in that, He promises me one day a resurrected, glorified body through my faith in Him.
59:52: Do they all believe in the same Jesus? You see what
59:58: I'm saying? You see what you're saying? Yeah. Maybe it's the same in person. Same name. Same name.
01:00:03: Maybe because Jesus was a great prophet. But He did die on a cross. And He did rise from the dead.
01:00:09: They deny it. They say that's not, they tell you that's a different Jesus. It's actually like, in Mormonism, one of the central tenets is that Jesus is the son of Heavenly Father.
01:00:19: In Islam, one of the central tenets is that Allah has no son. These are incompatible things.
01:00:25: You see where we're going? Yeah. So the issue, not to. . . No, no, go for it. So the thing is, how, if we have these people who disagree, it's too important of an issue for us to just throw up our arms and say, well, there's no way to know.
01:00:42: How do you go about finding an objective, authoritative source that says definitively who
01:00:53: Jesus is? Like, how do you, what is that source? Is it, say, the
01:00:59: Doctrine and Covenants? Is it the Bible? Is it the Koran and the Hadith? Is it 2 ,000 years of papal authority?
01:01:08: You know, that kind of stuff. What would you say is the final authority that you appeal to when somebody tries to say something weird about Jesus?
01:01:16: You say, no, I don't believe that because. . .
01:01:22: My personal witness. Okay. Personal revelation that I receive through my prayer and my study and the things that I do.
01:01:31: I know, you know, I feel like I've come to know Jesus as my Savior, my brother, my friend.
01:01:38: You know, the guy who has given me all. Yeah. I think, to the definition's point, objectively, you can't.
01:01:49: You can't know who he is. You can't have a definitive source there. Like, except John's Word and his
01:01:55: Gospel. Yes. Objectively. That's objective. Objectively, it's not.
01:02:04: How is the Word of God not objective? Because if I don't think that's the
01:02:10: Word of God, then. . . Well, it's objective because it doesn't matter what you think about it. It's true. Wouldn't that be subjective, though?
01:02:18: Like you. . . Yeah, I don't know. Anyways, keep going. This way, yeah. So. .
01:02:23: . Yeah, that's just. . . But I agree with Bob.
01:02:28: I think we have the Bible. We have the Word of God. I have grown my personal witness. Whoa.
01:02:36: All witness was so loud, too. I could barely hear myself. I was like, what is going on? Is there like a sign -up sheet?
01:02:43: So it would be more like the Bible. . . So I think, to me, the Bible and the
01:02:48: Book of Mormon are the Word of God. I have that witness that shows who
01:02:54: Jesus is. I read those words. I believe those words. And I seek for myself. Prayer.
01:03:01: And your personal witness. So think with me real quick, guys. What's the issue with that personal witness there?
01:03:08: And when we're talking about the three people talking about God. . . Do you don't think they have a personal witness about what they believe?
01:03:15: They've got to if they believe that. Okay, so. . . Is their personal witness tells them something different than what you believe?
01:03:21: Is what they believe true? It depends on what the truth is.
01:03:27: Well, how would you know? That's the question. Right, so the Bible tells us, right?
01:03:32: It says in 1 John 4, we're commanded to test the spirits. I would be dumb if I told you
01:03:38: I didn't think anything testified to you that Joseph Smith was a true prophet. And that the Book of Mormon is the last revelation for the dispensation of all times or what it is.
01:03:47: I would be dumb if I told you that. Okay? I'd be dumb if I told the Jehovah's Witness that they prayed about the
01:03:54: Watchtower Tract Society. And they had a burning in their heart as well. And that's why they follow the Watchtower Tract Society. And Charles Taze Russell and Judge Rutherford.
01:04:03: Well, that's not what determines truth for me as a Christian. It's not my feelings. It's God's Word which determines truth because it's objective outside of my feelings.
01:04:11: Proverbs says this, Kyle. It says, there's a way that seems right to a man, but the ends thereof are the ways of death.
01:04:18: Okay? And the Bible tells me in 1 John 4 again to test the spirit who can give you the feeling.
01:04:24: And there's tests of prophets in the Bible already. One, you know. You'll know them by their fruits, right? Jesus says that.
01:04:29: There's also two in the Old Testament. Have you ever heard them? Yeah. There's Deuteronomy 13 and Deuteronomy 18.
01:04:39: Okay? Who was the one that was giving this law in Deuteronomy? Moses. Alright?
01:04:46: So Moses in the second giving of the law tells people in Deuteronomy 13 .1. He says this.
01:04:52: If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and produces miracles, signs, and wonders.
01:04:58: Hold on to that. There's a prophet who's producing miracles, signs, and wonders. He's doing things. Making people feel things.
01:05:04: Maybe even making things appear. Maybe he's even turning a staff into a snake like the magicians at Pharaoh's court.
01:05:11: But, it says this in Deuteronomy 13. But if he leads you after other gods, gods which you have not known, do not believe them.
01:05:20: First test of a prophet. So how would they know who God was? Well, it's the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Right?
01:05:26: Deuteronomy 6 .4. Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. He's the God from everlasting into everlasting.
01:05:33: Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I am the first, I am the last. Beside me there is no
01:05:38: God. Right? So, if some prophet was to come along producing miracles to the
01:05:45: Jews, but they told the Jews. Well, guess what? God is actually and was once a man who lived on a planet just like you live on.
01:05:55: And he was obedient to the gospel ordinances and principles. And he is an exalted man sitting in the heavens.
01:06:02: And you are his offspring. You know what they would say? You're crazy. They would say according to what has already been written,
01:06:11: I will reject you. So when we hear Joseph Smith say, you have imagined and supposed that God was
01:06:18: God from all eternity. I will refute the idea and take away the veil such you may see. You have got to learn to become gods in the
01:06:23: King Follett discourse. I say, I'm going to test the spirit. I'm going to test the prophet.
01:06:29: And according to Deuteronomy 13, he already fails. Therefore, I'm not deceived by my feelings.
01:06:35: Your feelings can lead you astray. So if you believe in a different Jesus than the one who has been revealed 1 ,800 years before Joseph Smith.
01:06:42: And you don't believe in the Ego Omni, the I am. Then Pablo, Kyle, my worry for you guys is you actually don't have a sacrifice for your sins.
01:06:50: Hebrews 9 tells us that first comes death and then comes the judgment.
01:06:57: There is no second chance. There is no second chance. The life that we have to live is today.
01:07:03: Just like the Israelites. If you hear his voice today, do not be like the Israelites who hardened their hearts and wandered into the wilderness to die.
01:07:12: There is no second chance for them. There is no second chance for you. The call of the gospel is truly the good news,
01:07:19: Kyle and Pablo. That Jesus Christ did it all for you already. That he is the eternal
01:07:26: God. There is nothing you can do to make yourself righteous before him except the fact that he already did it.
01:07:35: And that's good news to me. Because good news is this. Your salvation and your exaltation doesn't depend on you.
01:07:44: It depended on Jesus. If someone tells me it's good news that Jesus made it possible and you need to be obedient as the sinful man
01:07:50: I am, I go, that's not good news. That's deception. So I think you're sincere.
01:07:56: But you can be sincerely wrong. And that's where my heart is. Right? So I want to give that to you guys.
01:08:02: I understand completely what you're saying. Yeah. And I'm just glad that there's other people who really are passionate about Jesus Christ.
01:08:08: That's right. And so, I just really... No, you're good. I agree with what you're saying in everything.
01:08:15: Why don't we do... I just know that, you know, Jesus has commanded us to try and become like him.
01:08:21: Test those spirits, my friend. And that's exactly what I'm trying to do. Do it then. Do it. Go read John. Go read Romans.
01:08:26: Make sure that the prophet who spoke 1 ,800 years after the New Testament is actually right.
01:08:32: Okay? You deserve that. You don't have to just trust him blatantly on what he says. He should stand up to what the
01:08:39: Bible details as the test. Okay? I can't change... We haven't just blindly followed him either.
01:08:45: We have... Like we said, we've studied and we've had our own witnesses. You know,
01:08:51: I will accept your invitation. Exactly. Thank you. That's all I ask. I can't change either of you. Yeah. And we can't change either of you.
01:08:56: It's all, you know... So I'm just glad that there are believers. Like, if someone was attacking you guys...
01:09:01: No, it's fine. You go. You just go. I was going to say, if someone was, like, attacking you guys, I would defend you guys because I know you guys have a good desire.
01:09:07: Absolutely. I feel like you guys would do the same for me. Oh, for sure. Absolutely. We love you guys. That's why we're out here.
01:09:13: Exactly. And I hope you see that. The irony is that, like, there are some people who are like, how can you be loving if you're going out and trying to persuade something to believe something different?
01:09:21: And, like, it's the exact opposite. Like, if we believe what we do, then the worst thing we could do is to not share it with anyone.
01:09:27: It's the same thing that, like, we've taught to do. Yeah. Right. It's ironic when we get, like, former
01:09:32: Mormons. We want to share the good news. Yeah. You're just sharing the good news that you guys, you're not trying to tear us down or anything like that.
01:09:39: Yeah, I'm just happy you guys sat and wanted to talk with us for a while. I see you kind of chilling.
01:09:46: Nice. I see this guy, he's like, I'm fine. I'm fine.
01:09:52: I'm fine. He's probably got to write some papers on some case law or something. I do. I actually have two assignments due tonight.
01:09:58: Dang. I also do, but not that long. Not as long as his. Here's what I think we should probably do because it's getting a little bit late.
01:10:05: Yeah. And I see you falling asleep right before my eyes. Why don't we do this? Why don't we, have you guys take, like, one or two minutes and just tell us, like, if there's any one thing that you want to say, and then
01:10:20: Andrew and I. You can respond. Yeah. Go. I believe
01:10:25: Jesus Christ is my Savior. I love that guy with all my heart because I know that without him, like, there's a reason that we were able to talk today because I really did enjoy, you know, this conversation.
01:10:35: I enjoyed talking to you guys about Jesus and hearing the different perspectives. And like you said, you know, it's, I know you guys aren't trying to change my mind.
01:10:42: You guys are just trying to give me new information. You know, I respect that. To be honest, like, at the beginning, I was a little like, oh, man, what is going on?
01:10:47: Oh, sure. You know, then you're humbled by the Lord. And you're like, man, these people are just good people trying to spread what they believe, just like I did when
01:10:53: I was on my mission and what I still try to do now. And so, you know, it's just like we're all trying to do the Lord's work.
01:10:58: We're all trying to do what Jesus Christ did. Be like his, you know, disciples. Be his disciples. Be good people. I just am grateful for that.
01:11:05: I'm grateful that you guys are out here doing something good. Instead of causing trouble or doing drugs.
01:11:11: Like, same thing. We can see you doing the same thing. No, riding your motorcycles really loud. Yeah, we're doing that. That's what we do on Wednesdays. No, man,
01:11:18: I'm just glad. I really am. It was a great conversation. Thank you guys. I'm so grateful for you guys because I was literally thinking about it the other day.
01:11:24: Like, since coming to Utah, like I worked in a place where it was like only members of the church.
01:11:29: And like, that's a good thing. Like, talking with people that know the same things.
01:11:34: Like, you can talk about things that you are interested in. Yeah.
01:11:40: And I've worked in places that, the firm that I work in right now. Like, one other person's name.
01:11:47: So it's like, there's different conversations you can have. And just, I'm so grateful that you guys came out.
01:11:55: Like, you guys know the Bible way more than I do. And I loved hearing that you just quote straight up.
01:12:01: Like, this is what Ephesians wants. Yeah. Yeah. We got a quote in the Bible. Yeah.
01:12:07: Yeah. Yeah. I knew that. I knew that. It says. It's like, let me say something from memory real quick.
01:12:15: No, and I love just hearing the word of God and having that invitation that you guys give to me. Regardless if we come to the same conclusion or not, that's something that I need to be doing.
01:12:24: Yeah. Yeah. Please. Like, yeah. Just like testing the spirit.
01:12:30: And that is absolutely something. Even if we do come to the same conclusion, I should do it again.
01:12:35: You know? Like, yeah. Like, we should always be testing the spirit. That's something that's asked of us by Jesus.
01:12:44: Yeah. Thank you, Kyle. Sweet. Well, first of all,
01:12:50: I'm glad we met you guys. Because there are some other people that are a little bit cantankerous tonight.
01:12:56: Cantankerous. Yeah, that's my SAT word of the night. I know that word. Oh, yeah. Four or five syllables.
01:13:03: Cantankerous. Say that again. Cantankerous. Well, first of all,
01:13:09: I just appreciate you guys listening to us and having some great questions and everything. I know some of it might have caught you off guard a little bit, but you did great.
01:13:19: Thanks. I just want you to know, first of all, first and foremost,
01:13:25: God is way, way better than anything that anyone has told you.
01:13:32: The reality of God is always so much better than what anyone could come up with on their own or make up in their mind.
01:13:41: The gospel is so much greater, so much more beautiful than anything that they've told you.
01:13:46: So I'm glad that you recognize we're not here to, like, take away your comfort and peace, but to hopefully give you a new one.
01:13:55: And to give you a fair warning that we don't believe that what they're telling you is the truth about God or that they can be trusted to do that.
01:14:04: God has revealed himself in his word, the Bible. He has made himself clear and his gospel and his nature, who he is.
01:14:17: And if we follow in that, if we put our faith in him before we even do anything else, that he gives us every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, that he, as Ezekiel says, he takes the dead bones, dead, dry, have been dead for a very long time.
01:14:38: And he puts that flesh on there and gives them life. Like Paul says in Ephesians, he noticed he always puts it in the past tense or the present tense, and it's passive.
01:14:49: You have, you have been given this, you were predestined. And now you can be now in Christ.
01:14:58: The Christian is God's work altogether for the beginning and through the end.
01:15:05: And we just hope that one day God will reveal himself to you as he is. And you would just be tremendously blessed for that.
01:15:13: Thank you. Thank you guys for tonight. Pablo? No problem. Have a good night, man. Yeah, you too. Thanks, man. Be safe tonight.
01:15:21: We will be there. You might see us. We're going to be at a general conference, man.
01:15:27: You might see us there. We'll be right there on the corner by the transgender man. Yeah. Because he's there every single night.
01:15:33: Yeah. You know what I'm talking about? I don't know. Well, he's going to try to hug you, and he's going to make you give you his book or something.
01:15:43: He's a nice guy. He's a nice guy. We've told him straight up, like, hey, the Bible says some stuff about what's going on with you, and he still hangs out with us.
01:15:52: I don't know. Yeah. Andrew and Ryan, right? Yep. Andrew and Ryan. Later, guys. See you guys up there.
01:15:58: See you later. You guys have fun. We'll see you before then. Yeah, we're here usually every Thursday. Every Thursday. Right there. Oh, sweet.
01:16:04: Oh, we've got all these, too. There were more on eBay if you get the whole set. Oh, that's all of our different ones. Yeah. Have a good night, guys.