Debate Teacher Reacts to Abortion Arguments | Feat. Ben Shapiro & Steven Crowder

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Don't know what that statement serves to accomplish here. You know what I mean like so here

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You know like Ben my question is this what is your stance on this specific situation right and then Ben says well

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Here's my stance on that situation and then the follow -up is well that doesn't happen now. Okay, so therefore what?

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Welcome back to another debate teacher reacts video. My name is Nate Sala I'm the president of a Christian nonprofit organization called wise disciple and here at wise disciple

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We're all about living effectively as Christians in today's culture now If you're brand new to this video to this entire series or the whole channel, welcome.

00:43

Welcome. I'm very glad that you're here Look the reason that we do this specific series is to elevate the level of discourse when it comes to debates when it comes to Exchanges between two people on opposite sides of a particular issue now, we've been plugging away

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Doing things in the area of theology and apologetics, you know religion non -religion this time around I want to look at abortion.

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All right, because I think that we can benefit from making some observations and parsing out

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Some good things that are happening in these kinds of discussions and some bad things that are happening So what

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I'm gonna do, it's a quick exercise. I'm gonna type in YouTube Abortion debate and we're just gonna look at some of the most viewed videos of all time in this specific

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Category of search. So without further ado, let's go ahead and jump in right now Alright now having done the search now

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I found about four exchanges some of the most viewed videos of all time and abortion debates on YouTube and it really centers around Two figures two political figures that are very controversial depending on you know, what side of the fence that you fall, right?

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So we're looking at two video Exchanges from Ben Shapiro with others and then

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Steven Crowder with some others. So this is the very first video here now Combined the videos that we're looking at I think makes a grand total of like 20 million views on YouTube So hopefully this best represents what people are sort of seeing when they think about and watch

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Exchanges about abortion between two people on opposite sides of the fence. Let's go ahead and take a look

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Okay Okay, I do care. Okay. So there are a couple of questions in there all wrapped up into one, you know

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Did you catch that? This is why it's very difficult to have a productive conversation Particularly about like emotional boilerplate issues like abortion, you know because people tend to wander

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It's not a knock on people, you know, because a lot of us tend to do this It's just that we start talking about something and then our mind shift and then whatever comes to mind just falls out of our mouth

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You know and sometimes that's nerves. Sometimes. It's just untrained thinking, you know But the effect of all of this is the questions themselves will not get answered

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This young lady just asked more than one question and watch what's gonna happen Only the last question is gonna get answered why because people cannot typically track multiple questions in like Seven seconds care about the mother being poor.

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I do care about foster care I Because I well

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Planned Parenthood doesn't prevent abortions they do hundreds of thousands of abortions a year they perform 300 ,000 abortions a year

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They're leading abortion That they perform 300 ,000 abortions a year from Planned Parenthood That's my evidence.

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So she changed the subject again here. Okay, she started off by asking Well, why put the focus on the life of the baby and not on mother's rights?

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Okay now from the pro -choice stance, that's an important question to ask. Okay, but instead of waiting for an answer

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She immediately asked another question. Why don't you care about babies after they're born? And now she just made a

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Statement which is Planned Parenthood prevents abortions. Okay, so she just asked two questions and made a claim which is not great

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And I'm not knocking her skills. I mean, she's probably not a debater But if you really care about engaging the other side effectively

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You need to stick with one question until you've either made your point, you know exposed errors from the other side or both

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They don't dispute that. No one disputes that. I'm not anti birth control. Birth control is extraordinarily cheap.

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Okay, they're not the only people in America who provide affordable birth control You can go get a pack of condoms down at the local CVS for 12 bucks

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Yes, and it's true that most forms of birth control are also extraordinarily cheap on an annualized basis unless you have a severe problem

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Though most birth control is very cheap and readily available And I'm not against people going and getting that from Planned Parenthood as you may have noticed.

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I'm mostly against abortion If you want to go to Planned Parenthood and get a contraceptive go for it. I don't care

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I do care when you start killing babies. This is a problem for me What about in rape and incest situations?

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I mean, this is a long conversation. I'm enjoying it actually, which is why I'm allowing you to stay but it's But it's but the question of rape and incest first of all important to note rape and incest are not only a vast minority of Abortion cases.

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They're an extraordinarily low percentage of abortion cases So you can first stipulate that all the other abortions are bad, then we can talk about that other one

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Can we do that? Okay Look at that. So she asked about rape and incest which again from the pro -choice perspective is it's a legitimate question to address, right?

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But even actually for some pro -life folks Those are legitimate exceptions rape and incest

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All right I mean if you're pro -life and you think that the unborn should be aborted because of rape and incest

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I don't think you've wrestled with your arguments very well But the point is she asked about rape and incest and Shapiro recognizes the maneuver here

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Okay, because if you keep your door open a few inches based on certain exceptions

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Then maybe you can keep pushing the door open even further with even more exceptions later, right?

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so and so it looks like Shapiro is asking her to concede that all other abortion cases are

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Unjustified probably to identify her real motives behind this question And I'm not saying that she's doing she's being manipulative or doing this on purpose

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But nevertheless a lot of people go into these conversations, they don't really realize what they're doing it

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But the bottom line is the effect of all of this is this is a maneuver And so Shapiro is trying to do something here to identify

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The the motives behind it. Are you willing to stipulate that all the other abortions are bad? Just rape and incest bother you

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It's an excuse right so it's an excuse that we can say that so that we can we can take the marginal case and then Say that the marginal case applies to all cases

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Okay, that's that's again faulty thinking but if you want me to answer specifically on rape and incest

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Here is my basic answer rapists should be castrated or killed. You shouldn't kill babies end of story Agree and that's usually the left side of the aisle because I don't

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I don't I don't know what that statement serves to accomplish here You know what? I mean? Like so here you know, like Ben.

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My question is this what is your stance on this specific situation, right? And then Ben says well, here's my stance on that situation.

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And then the follow -up is well that doesn't happen now Okay, so therefore what? All right, so this is the next video it's called

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Ben Shapiro shreds now It's an all -caps shreds just like the other one was in all -caps to like what what is going now?

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I'm thinking like did I have I ever done that like if I ever titled? Something in all cap. I mean like the thing is but if your goal is to Rally the base then go ahead and do this kind of stuff

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You know what? I mean, but if you really are seeking to change somebody's mind on the other side of the aisle

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I I really wouldn't be titling headlines this way. You know what I mean? So anyway, let's go ahead and see what happens

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Yeah, I've um an issue with your stance on abortion. Okay, right so you define life as starting at conception

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Through biology, right pretty much But I think you take the stance that life is intrinsically valuable because it's life and that's where I disagree

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I think there's two things that make life valuable. I think consciousness the ability to experience pain senses and stuff like that and personal identity in Particular psychological continuity identity.

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So the fact that we have memories we have relationships people have relationships to us I think what you need both of those is in either or I just want to clarify your position either or okay

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So it's either or then people with Alzheimer's have real continuity problems. You can't kill them No, because people still have relationships with them though, right?

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I mean you have a relationship with them. But what with people with advanced stage Alzheimer's they really don't have really

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Okay, right. So this is interesting. And here's the thing. These aren't debates, right? You know These are people who got brave enough to get up in front of others and engage somebody who likely it has

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Participated in formal debates and a number of formal debates and he's real quick on his feet Okay, so kudos to these people for you know being brave to like get up and do this kind of thing the number one fear

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I believe still is Public speaking right getting up in front of people large crowds and speaking and stuff

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But you know, these are not formal debates. We're not gonna see like serious clash like in a true cross -examination, right?

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But this is interesting this highlights the two sort of philosophical Presuppositions that each side of the abortion debate they have it like going into this argument

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They already possess it on the one hand. The pro -lifers will claim that the value of human

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Persons rests in the kind of thing that they are a conception. Okay, they're they're human That means humans have intrinsic value

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Okay Now a lot of pro -choice advocates will argue that you're not human at conception that you're for a lack of a better Characterization you you're you're not fully assembled yet.

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You're a collection of parts Or maybe another word for that is properties and you only become a human person

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When you've enough of those properties or parts have been manifested This means that really what you have is extrinsic value, but here's a problem with looking at human value

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Extrinsically, you know for every property that the unborn does not have

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And from the pro -choice side then you making the claim that well They're they're a non person because they do not possess this particular specific property or capacity or whatever

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You can point to a grown person that also does not have that property or capacity and so then it leads you into some bizarre and perhaps grotesque

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Scenarios if you want to remain consistent in this argument and hopefully Shapiro points this out

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The family gets to decide what you do with the body It's because I know what you say when you say someone says Oh just consciousness and then they're brain -dead you say well

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Can you stop them? No, you can't because that's the family's decision what to do with the body It's a person's decision what the family decides to stab them.

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It's okay to stab the when they're brain -dead Yeah, they want to know not not brain -dead. Let's say that you're comatose for a for a specifically and predictably

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Short period of time say nine months say that well, what is the person? So so I would say on the that's clever, you know

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But but but this is what happens when you take the position that that human value is only Extrinsic that it hinges on possessing certain properties or capacities like like possessing memories

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Which is what this young man is talking about here. Well, what about those with Alzheimer's, you know, what about those with amnesia?

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What about somebody who's in a coma and cannot recall any memories while comatose, you know, should we abort these people?

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that's the kind of you know absurd and Grotesque situation that you place yourself in if you want to remain consistent

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The legal grounds it would depend if the person put on their will if the person has made clear statements Like hey, don't pull the plug on nine months then don't do that because I think the first choice is right

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But let's say the person has not made such clear statements in person can't make such clear statements So that then he's just in a complete coma

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Let's say the person has not drawn up a living will or had conversations like this. They go into the car crash You know that in nine months, they're gonna come out of the coma and they're going to be fine

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Are you allowed to stab it? Stab the dude, wait, so they're gonna get their memories back

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Let's say they don't get their memories back Then I would say then that person is dead. And yeah, if the family wants to pull the plug, that's fine

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Yeah, no, I would have no problem with that Because I know I don't think that this person understands the question

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If someone is going to be walking around alert and awake after nine months being in a coma for nine months

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But they don't possess any of their old memories We should kill them because why like I because they don't remember like, you know

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Where they live or ever having their first kiss like we should kill these people I don't think this guy has thought about this position all that much

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I think what he's trying to do is remain consistent, but he's not really thought it all the way through That person is dead.

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You're getting into some dicey territory, dude. No, I think that person is dead Right, and that's the best way to define life is personal identity and consciousness.

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That's what makes life valuable Right, so I think that again if you were to say both that's too much and if you're even to say either I don't think either one of those legs stands on its own

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Okay, because what you really mean this is the thing about having a baby It's a process of development and this is the point that I'm making

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There's a period in this human life when that child does not have or fetus or embryo whatever you want to call it when this

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Living thing does not have consciousness and does not have a sense of identity But in nine months, it will have consciousness

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Babies don't have a sense of identity for at least for at least a certain number of months after they're born I mean the babies can recognize their parents as voices after they're born.

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That's not a sense of identity rats can Say it is because it's no it's a form of memory though, right?

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That's what I was so are you a Janus because animals also have conscious.

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Oh, yeah No, I would say that killing animals is wrong. You have no problem with that. So just to get this straight Killing killing fluffy the hamster deeply wrong

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Killing a dude who wakes up from a who's going to wake up from a coma in nine months with memory problems.

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Totally cool Right, you know, so so here's the problem with this kind of discussion, you know, and I'm only seeing this clip

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So, I don't know if if there's more than that or if this was discussed before but the bottom line is You see how this exchange trades on your presuppositions.

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That's why it's very important to begin conversations on the issue of abortion specifically with key definitions and Ontological arguments for or against the unborn.

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Okay, you really need to answer the question. What is the unborn? Is it a human being? Is it a person?

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Is it a non person and why why is an important question as well? Because that's that's a justification question, you know, these are these are philosophical

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Questions and in my opinion they should be answered with philosophical arguments. All right this next video

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It looks like it's Steven Crowder and he does his thing with the change my mind series of videos, which is pretty clever

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Let's go ahead. So this is I'm pro -life Changed my mind and he's engaging students at what appears to be a university campus.

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Let's take a look. What's your name? Mitch? Mitch Steven nice to meet you Um, I have no idea whether you're familiar or not with the segment that we do

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But it's basically an opportunity to rationalize one's position I'm pro -life and all that that would encompass here

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I guess you probably understand where I line up if you disagree with me things anything wrong with my position You're more than welcome to change my mind

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Do you think there's a lot wrong with your position if you're not going to try to tell more than half the world's population more than half of America's population that they

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Are not allowed to decide to do with their bodies what they want to do But a dead body if they're not an organ donor, they're not gonna get harvested for organ donation, then

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I think that's really messed up and Frankly I think that women should have the option

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Legally and otherwise to be able to get an abortion if they want to Okay, there are a few presumptions there

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No, I would never tell 50 % of America as you put it about half of America what they can and can't do with their own bodies

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But that's exactly what the pro -life argument is You're going to make abortions illegal.

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So I'm not familiar with Steven Crowder and I'm not really familiar. I've not seen a lot of these kinds of videos or whatever

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But you know you hear this a lot these slogans like well You know don't tell me what to do with my own body from the pro -choice side and then you have pro -lifers

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Steven Crowder is saying well, I'm not trying to tell people what to do with their own bodies I think what

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Steven Crowder is getting at and hopefully he unpacks. This is From the pro -life side. The unborn is not the female's body.

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It's not the mother's body The unborn is its own distinct entity with its own distinct DNA and all that stuff

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So that's where I think that's what he's trying to say when he says I'm not trying to tell people what to do with their

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Bodies, he's probably just saying I'm trying to protect the body of the unborn child Which then is going to force the women of America to either find a way to get an illegal abortion

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Which has its own host of problems both medical legal, etc as abortion does

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Abort is safe abortion doesn't sure it does what what what

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What what what things are medically wrong with a medical abortion for the baby being killed?

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Okay, I'm not talking about the baby. Why not? Because the simple fact of the matter is is the baby is not an autonomous living being really

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Because it cannot fend for itself Okay So would a right and there it is again, right and now you see that it really does come back to your presupposition

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Surrounding the status the ontological status of the unborn. What is it? Is it a human being because of what kind of thing it is like going all the way back to conception?

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I mean This is by the way The pro -life side and that whole view is otherwise known as the substance view of human persons, you know

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It's it's a it's a human being at conception and it has intrinsic value the for the pro -choice side

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You know, the question is is the unborn the sum total of its parts that it only

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Becomes a human being after manifesting certain properties, you know certain essential capacities or whatever like fending for oneself

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You know or whatever you say it is But here's the thing as soon as you treat the unborn as having extrinsic value

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You know and and and that value hinges on certain properties or capacities Then you have to bite the bullet and say that well you're fine killing grown -ups, you know

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Who also have those same properties or capacity? Well, it doesn't have to be a grown -up either like it could just be a toddler

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Right or or a newborn infant But if you want to be consistent You have to bite that bullet and say that you'll do the same thing on both sides of the womb

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We're not talking about a two -month -old baby we're talking about a fetus. Well, no, I'm using your definition You said cannot fend for itself.

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So it's fending for itself the standard of what constitutes a human being. No Okay, so what constitutes a human being the fact that it is born, right?

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Okay, so what makes the difference between a human being and not a human being is seven inches about the birth canal

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Yeah, okay So kudos to Crowder because this is the fundamental question that everyone needs to ask on the abortion issue

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What is the unborn would be okay with abortion all the way up to nine months? In certain symptoms circumstances, yeah, okay

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What do you mean in certain certain circumstance? Uh, if the birth would be fatal to either the mother or the fetus then

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I do think that abortion should be legal Well, sure, let's say if the birth would kill the mother. No, I don't know any major pro -life

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Advocates who wouldn't agree with that. Yeah, I've met quite a few actually Oh, I have yet to meet one. So maybe you can give me your

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Rolodex But I certainly would say if you're looking at the direct a direct threat to the life of the mother

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Yes, I understand that. Okay, but let me say it sounds like that doesn't really matter because you would support abortion

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Regardless. Yes. Okay, so why bring it up? Yeah Because people especially in America have the freedom to make choices and right now that and right now the pro -life argument is trying to infringe upon one of the choices and Quick question for all the women.

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Can y 'all raise your hand real quick? I don't care if it's one -on -one of all of those women that have their hands raised

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Which one of you would rather be forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term Oh Whoops that didn't go his way

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That's the danger of using mob rule as your moral compass. Sometimes you don't like how it turns out

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And I could have actually told you that there are significant amount of pro -life women here a couple of things a Couple of things.

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I want to clarify. I would never tell a woman what she can and can't do with her own body That's not what I am doing.

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Okay, that's not what she is doing and I would never force a woman to carry a child Okay But that's exactly what the pro -life stance is.

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No, it's not so what what about the pro -life argument and pro -life

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Laws and regulations and all that is going to allow women the choice. Mm -hmm

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Because that's the whole basis of the pro -choice argument, right? Yeah, that's a false premise

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What laws would allow the choice to kill another human being? But it's not a human being well, it is a human thing.

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Well, how do you define a human being? You said fend for itself. That's not a consistent. Yeah, and that's seven inches of birth canal as you said

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Well, you said you didn't agree earlier. No, no fending for itself. So in other words, no, no It's not a living human being until it crosses that birth canal.

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Okay, why why? Because it's still in the womb. It is still a fetus. So well, hold on a second

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So we're talking about right now a nine month old baby. Let's say eight month old, right? But it's not a baby until it's born.

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It's not a baby until it's born. So the only difference right now I'm using a nine month isn't it? Let's pick an eight month old.

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Okay, eight months inside the womb Eight months outside of the womb. Mm -hmm. One is a life and one is not.

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Yeah. Okay. So what determines human life is location If a woman has an eight month old fetus

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Versus an eight month old child That is a huge difference because one is inside the woman one is outside the only difference is let's call it geographical location

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But it's not the same as geographical location. Okay, it's a location inside a woman or outside a woman, but you're oversimplifying it

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You're trying to understand. I'm okay. Why is one a life and one is not because the fetus itself is

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Wholly and totally dependent upon the mother that it is attached to via umbilical cord

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Right, but wholly dependent Just like an eight month old outside of the unborn.

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However, the eight month old child The infant at that point, that's the important distinction fetus versus infant

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It's your important distinction. I don't think it's a consistent one, but continue is The fact that a fetus which has not been born yet and an

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Infant which has been born In my opinion, it shouldn't matter whether or not

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The mother wants to keep it or not whether it's but I already okay

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I mean look this guy is essentially Having a conversation based on claims that he's making to Crowder and then when

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Crowder asks him to justify those specific claims He shuffles his deck of claim cards around and he pulls another claim out

24:48

Right. I mean, that's the long and short of this, you know And I I think this kind of conversation betrays what happens a lot in regular conversations about abortion in everyday life, you know, which is it we we got some people here that are they have a bunch of thoughts that haven't been wrestled with all the way through philosophically or logically consistently and You know, this is this is what we got

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Which is not great next and now we reach the final video here It's the same sort of category of video with Steven Crowder.

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I'm pro -life changed my mind, by the way I'm wondering if you caught this but the premise of these videos is pretty clever in a debate on a given topic

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Particularly how the topic is worded both interlocutors have a burden of proof to support themselves when they go in making arguments, right?

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here Crowder has given his stance up front and then he he shifts the burden of proof on to his

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Interlocutor and he gets to sit back and chime in with cross -examination questions whenever he wants to So, I mean that's that's pretty clever, but let's go ahead and jump in Well, I mean if you want to get into adoption, let's look at the let's look at the thousands of babies

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Who are in the foster program right now? I mean, I understand not having late -term abortions unless it's medically necessary, but my whole my whole point is

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Women who are pro -choice make this decision and anybody who wants to argue on a religious basis at the end of the day

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I haven't not you not you. I'm just saying a majority like not a majority a

26:20

Portion of people who do want to make that religious. Oh, they're not here. That's irrelevant. So let's just talk about the science

26:27

Well, then in that case, well on adoption, let's go back to that adoption. So those children are still in the foster care program right now

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Theoretically speaking. Let's say abortion was completely taken away What happens with the influx of births that are gonna occur?

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What's gonna happen with the women who don't want those children who initially didn't want that child and do give them up for adoption?

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And we have a huge surplus of more children in the foster care program Who then will not be adopted just as the many thousands that are in it right now.

26:59

So Can I answer that it sounds to me first off like a lot of absolvent of responsibility But just because someone is a burden is that is that how we place value on human life if someone is more burdensome because they're unwanted

27:11

They are not they have no No, no, I want to I want to determine what let's

27:16

I'm saying like in the sense of burdening Yeah, we don't want to take the burden. I know it's a different topic, but it's just something similar we don't want to take the burden of Some of our mistakes on a day -to -day basis, but yet it's not as polar opposite as this right now so this whole thing about you know

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What are the consequences of adoption rates in foster care if we stop?

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Aborting the unborn It's not a justification to abort the unborn because we haven't yet discussed or these two haven't yet discussed

27:50

The ontology of the unborn you see how that's so vital to the discussion What is the unborn that you know, if the unborn is a human being with intrinsic value

28:01

Then you see how asking these questions about the rise of the adoption rates or foster care.

28:07

It's irrelevant Right if the unborn is not a human being until some some sort of Property or capacity manifest itself.

28:15

Well, then yeah, it makes more sense to talk about adoption and foster care along these lines So that's where the conversation needs to start with your presuppositions

28:23

I'd say like every single time you get into this kind of a conversation about abortion That's where it needs to start as in the sense of like I can't bring up other topics because then we're gonna get off Yeah, we'll get

28:38

I don't know if you consider yourself. Sorry feminist at all or but I certainly wouldn't let

28:43

I certainly wouldn't let men off The hook as you are right here. Listen, both women and men have responsibility to either be abstinent use proper contraception.

28:51

It's 2018 I don't believe for a second that people are not aware of the contraception methods available to them And then also be parents or provide a baby for adoption and there are plenty of services out there

29:01

It sounds to me like absolving people from a lot of responsibility. And again, none of this is okay

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But if it's a human life some of those government Help like should help deter

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Women from wanting to have an abortion are not as easily acceptable as everybody thinks that they are

29:20

Just because you make a certain amount of money per year means that you don't qualify

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For the government aid the health care programs that are available. You don't

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I don't qualify for them I slipped through the cracks because I'm right in the middle So because I had nobody to help me and yes

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I can be in another another person on government subsidies as well as my child

29:45

But do you really want to pay you have a child? I don't have a child. I'm saying theoretically Okay, do you want to pay for my subsidies that I need requiring?

29:54

I would be requiring from the government No, so again talking about these kinds of things

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Sort of downplays the real emotional involvement that's going on in these kinds of discussions

30:05

And I don't want you to get the wrong idea because it's all there the emotions and they're all valid Okay, people are trying to figure this out

30:12

You know I think a lot of us if we're on one side of the issue we get mad at the other side because we really treat the other side as if They know better, but they're they're being somehow

30:23

Manipulative or something like that. That's not what's going on. Both sides the debate really believe what they're saying

30:28

Okay, and so but what I'm so what I'm talking about style here I don't want to sound like she's being manipulative, but she's doing a really good job of personalizing the issue

30:38

That's effective when you go into a conversation like this and you personalize and use personal language like what she's doing

30:44

That is effective to get your point across of course not you don't know. No, and I know where this is going now

30:50

We're going to go and say well, you're not really pro -life unless you support insert socialized program here Is I'm pretty consistent across the board

30:57

I'm pro -life meaning you cannot kill another human being inside the womb or outside of the womb So I think the pivotal question becomes you talk about the choice the choice the choice now

31:04

I provided four choices you just believe that it's you believe it's a human right to provide a fifth choice

31:10

So in that case, um, it's I think it's very important for you to I guess explain to me why that's not a human life

31:20

That's not necessarily something that yeah, that's the fundamental question Okay, and kudos to Crowder for bringing it back to that to that question.

31:27

You can explain according to biology Sure, technically you can say that it is a human life, but I'm not

31:34

Tucker I'm not going to get into that conversation because you can tail dog me all day long on it

31:39

No, I think it was like hold on a second Doesn't that matter? Doesn't it isn't the most important question if you are potentially killing a human being

31:50

Let me continue on I will answer that question But let me continue on this this this logic trail here if you are advocating for abortion

31:57

And we both acknowledge that it could be potentially ending a human life Isn't it important for you to be able to prove it's not a to end human life only when the government says that we can

32:07

It's not okay to end human life The army does every day We're talking about wars and we're talking about self -defense millions killing

32:17

This is something that I see a lot of people slip into in conversations And again, it goes back to the first thing

32:22

I said, which is, you know, we get into a discussion right our Heart starts beating a little bit faster our nerves get going right and whatever pops into our mind falls right out of our mouth

32:32

The problem is she's changing the subject So when he brings up an issue that it appears that she properly can't respond to she shifts and changes the subject and starts

32:42

Bringing up something else. Oh, look at this over here. Look at that over there And so the strategy in this regard is to keep it back to the one issue like no

32:51

No, we're not gonna we can talk about that in just a moment But first let's finish talking about this specific issue and Crowder appears to be doing a good job

32:58

You know trying to keep it on the one issue Innocent child killing an innocent chef. Do you are you okay?

33:04

Let me ask you this you approve of that. No, I don't okay So then you wouldn't approve it happening in a womb, correct?

33:10

I don't approve so you saying that a child in a womb is gonna be the de facto of what

33:18

Happens in my life because if I decide to be if I'm gonna appreciate I don't appreciate a person killing another human being

33:25

So it does I get that you say I don't want listen I don't want you to have a say in my life, but I don't

33:30

I don't want to have a say in your life I only want to have a say in the legalities of the laws that I live

33:36

The laws that affect me and the millions of other women that have to have the abortion

33:41

Because let me tell you right now have a lot of a lot of like have to have half have

33:47

To have the abortion. So you only support abortion if it's medically necessary. No, I didn't say that You're putting words in my mouth, okay, what do you mean have to have the abortion then as in it's a choice

34:00

If I don't have the abortion then I have to quit school. I have to I have to There's no choice.

34:08

I don't you there is no choice whenever it comes to sitting there and weighing your options and actually having to carry determine deal with the already

34:19

Extreme Changes that happen in your body Like until you have physically carried something in you until you have had to face the decision

34:28

I'm not saying it's something that's beautiful I'm not saying that people are out here having tea parties and getting an abortion afterwards.

34:36

No, it's not pretty I mean, you know, we're doing the shout your abortion campaign It's the it's the really ugly truth of what we had to do what we had to do

34:45

There's plenty of if you just set the emotions aside for a second and just look at the issues themselves

34:51

There's a dance going on and I don't think this this young lady understands what she's doing here but the effect of all this is she's skirting the real issue of the unborn zontology and bringing up all these other issues that May or may not make sense

35:06

Unless you first determine what the unborn is That is the fundamental question that everybody needs to ask first before talking about you know hardships

35:20

That are real. I mean those are valid, you know Adoption rates foster care abuse like whatever it is, right?

35:28

We talked about all of those things after we determine and agree on what the unborn is and she refuses to do that Earlier, she said she want to talk about it so at this point

35:37

Crowder can either press in and risk pissing her off essentially or Just give some kind of concluding remark and move on other men in history who will say those same words

35:48

We had to do what we had to do whether it be pretty or not I can understand the moral obligations that you feel no not feel and will that we all have a moral

35:58

No, we all have a moral obligation to not kill other people against their will period Will because they don't have a thought process they haven't learned they haven't they haven't been born and you know

36:09

Here we go, right human value is extrinsic to certain key properties or capacities in this case

36:16

It's the ability to have thought processes Right, but then you open yourself up if that's your position to the same problem of grown -ups or toddlers or newborns

36:28

Lacking the same properties or capacities and what are you going to do with those examples?

36:45

No answer if like the law says that a fetus is not a baby until it is viable outside of the womb

36:52

Okay Those those same laws and regulations that still constitute someone to be charged with murder or even

36:59

Manslaughter if there was an accident Those should be law and what's moral something can be legal and entirely immoral.

37:06

Okay, and there's Okay, a good example would be let's say

37:13

Slave owners it was legal at one point and it benefited slave owners, right? They could control the bodies of other human beings

37:23

Abortion only benefits the people who are killing other lives often out of convenience It certainly is harmful to the baby inside of the womb.

37:31

So I do think it's very important here For you to define what constitutes a human life.

37:37

Why is that baby? Let's say in so I mean this is probably another video for another time, right?

37:42

Because you know our focus tends to be in this series Anyway tends to be more on more formal debates in the issues themselves the arguments themselves, right?

37:50

But look at the body language that's going on here Crowder is leaning in. He's very persistent

37:57

Trying to engage this particular person, but look at her. She's leaning away from him her non -verbals are

38:04

Showing she's got her guard up and she's not liking what she's hearing and so even her repeating under her breath, you know

38:11

For convenience right just goes to show that if the goal here really is of Crowder's attempts here

38:18

It really is to persuade somebody to change their minds in this particular instance He's not doing it and we don't have to be psychic to know that he's not persuading this person

38:26

So then it becomes a matter of well, do you continue? do you further press in even knowing that the guard is up with this person and and They're going to probably keep that guard up, you know, like or do you just go?

38:38

Hey, thank you so much for the conversation I hope that you think about some of the things that I said and what says it seems for you

38:44

Your definition is viability. What constitutes a human life? When is it? Okay, when the child is viable outside of the womb and that does not happen.

38:52

Okay, when's that until about five to six months? Pregnancy, so we've already talked about late -term abortions occur in the third trimester

39:00

I believe if you've had that baby for six months have the damn baby. So you're against late -term abortion

39:06

Yes, if it's you know women who do have late -term abortions They're not out here

39:12

Walking around at eight months pregnant saying, you know what? I don't feel like having this baby anymore.

39:18

Let's just get rid of it No, they're not. That's almost all late -term abortions I've seen basically the gist of this but you know, it also is missing from this conversation is why there are a lot of what?

39:29

questions happening You know, the the unborn is not a human being until it's viable outside the womb

39:35

Okay, although I'm not sure like what that means exactly because a newborn cannot take care of itself outside the womb either

39:42

So the baby still requires, you know, someone to take care of it inside or outside the womb but we're hearing a lot of what right but not

39:50

The why and that's important to to request as well in these kinds of conversations, right?

39:56

Why is viability outside the womb the criteria to be a human being or whatever? She's saying right like whatever your criteria is.

40:04

Why is that the criteria? That's a justification question, you know Because it's one thing to just make claims all day long

40:10

But it's another thing to back up your claims with some good evidence and some good reasons And by the way, that also applies to the pro -life side as well

40:17

So if you're a pro -life person and you make some claims the onus is on you to also support yourself

40:22

When you make those kinds of claims, so look the big takeaway here is this and I hope you caught it The average person on the street

40:29

Hasn't really thought through their positions not all the way through they haven't really wrestled with it

40:34

There's a lot of sloganeering going on probably on both sides but like there's not a lot of thought process going through and in dealing with logical consequences and Consistency when it comes to the abortion issue

40:48

So it's probably best as a strategy or a tactic not to make statements

40:53

But to ask the right kinds of questions it's in debate It would be more like treat your conversations in the vein of a cross -examination

41:01

But do it with a tender heart and do it with a lot of patience and care for the person that you're talking to You know now obviously we watched a video a couple videos of Ben Shapiro where he's making a lot of statements

41:11

But in his case he was at a podium In front of a large audience and people were asking him questions with Crowder It was more one -on -one which is how typically it goes for the rest of us in normal situations, right?

41:22

and so in those cases Asking questions the right kinds of questions is key also identifying the ontology of the unborn

41:30

What is he got to ask her that question? What is the unborn? Is it a human being a conception or is it not and why do you say that?

41:37

That needs to be dealt with first before we talk about anything else That ultimately is the fundamental question that determines where you go next in in the conversation about abortion

41:47

So I hope this exercise was fruitful and then it gets you thinking along the right lines when it comes to this kind of discussion if you are more interested in persuading folks and seeking to be persuasive when it comes to Talking about abortion, but also theology and apologetics.

42:03

Well, then definitely check out our other series first date evangelism We have a signature method of communicating that is persuasive

42:09

It actually follows the proper order of persuasion and it goes all the way back to Jesus So definitely take a look at all those videos and more in the meantime

42:17

I'm gonna take a break and I will return soon with more videos for your consumption. And for now,