Mylo Sings Happy Birthday then Calls

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us

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Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the

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Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

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White call now at 602 973 460 to or toll -free across the

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United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

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James White Hey, good morning, welcome to the dividing line that it's good to do the dividing line today and We are all set up to To do iron sharpens iron and so my ears are now bleeding as we get started here

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But we will be doing iron sharpens iron this afternoon. That'll be about an hour after we complete this program so you can certainly get your

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Your fill today that I might of course for some people will take you only about 30 seconds But yeah, well, we'll certainly be available today at 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 have not had the opportunity of taking a phone calls since last week and the breaking of the tomb story then

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I was Gone on Thursday to Massachusetts had a great time There was nice and cold and they threatened me with a nor 'easter, but it didn't really pan out

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But I did see that snow stuff and saw people out on frozen lakes and things like that which is a very odd thing to see when you live in in Phoenix, Arizona, but It was starting to get cold again right as I left on Sunday.

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And of course, I was flying US Airways So that was a fun trip They emerged their their systems on Saturday night into Sunday and so it was a mess

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But we're back here in one piece and we have launched into the writing of the book.

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I Am currently in the you know, some people ask, you know, how do you write a book and and each book is is different With pulpit crimes.

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It was chapter by chapter not necessarily in the order in which they finally appeared This one's a little bit this and this one's

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I like this this way of doing it. This is how I wrote Potter's freedom and that is

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I have an outline and now I'm going through the source because I'm responding to a source That's for me.

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That's the easiest way of writing and I think it's for me It's the best way of writing is when I'm responding to somebody and so I have a source and thanks be

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It even though it wasn't available last Wednesday I checked today and it is available in e -text and so I have it in two different e -text formats now on my computers

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Simcha Yakubovich can thank me for the two copies of the book and the two e -copies the book that I've purchased so far helping to keep he and his family fed but Obviously having an e -text allows me to cut and paste

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Even though both the programs have limitations on that one of the versions I can only cut and paste like five lines at a time

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But there's an unlimited number of those and then the other one I can only do 25 total cuts and paste in the next seven days

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So I have to make it fairly a large block on that one So I'm using the other one at the moment, but going through and of course,

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I marked the book as I was reading it So I'm going through grabbing all those and putting them getting way too hot again

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And putting them in Into a file and then I take that which of course has the page numbers and things like that and I put those into the various chapters and Then I've got

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I've got my quotes there and of course I've also got all sorts of stuff bookmarked and things like that other books that I'll be doing the same thing with a lot of Them obviously,

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I don't have e -copies of those but at least websites and things like that I can copy them and make sure I've got the footnotes, you know the reference to it right there in the text and then then you've got all these chapters and all they are are quotes all they are are citations and then you hit the chapter and You write an introduction and then you you organize the quotes as you want them to fit into the argument that you're presenting and you're you put your material together that way and voila, the chapter doesn't take forever to put together that way and so the next few days will in essence be the insertion of the research already done over the past number of days and Put that all together and then we're ready to go from there

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So that's where we are right now Trying to put in 10 to 12 hours a day on that so that we can put this together and make it available to you

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Yeah, it's a guess what guess what today is rich It's Spidey's birthday. It's it's

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Spidey's birthday. Remember remember the last time we tried singing Rich just got a real sour look on his face

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Remember we blew up the Gettner, you know, we had just gotten that thing and then you just All kinds and it just melts down right there

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We could even get everybody back I mean it was just like smoke coming out from underneath the desk

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It was It was really bad so anyways, yes, it's uh

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It's a Spidey geeks birthday today. And I think that was a number of years ago. She was still just a kid back then and now unfortunately

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She's closer to the big three. Oh than anything else I tell you the the this the

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Sun just circles the earth and it and it does so very Very very quickly. Oh, we should you know what we should do.

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We should I wonder You know, I I know we you know want to take phone calls want to answer questions of like that But I wonder if we could get

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Milo Hotzenbuehler to sing. Happy birthday for Spidey. I wonder if that could happen

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Hmm. I mean that would that's that's shooting for the stars. I mean trying to get to get

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Milo You know to come to be on the program to sing. Happy birthday to Spidey.

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That would be that would be something Let's let's let's let's hope maybe at our powerful signal.

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We'll we'll get out to get out to Milo and And maybe maybe he'd be willing to do that.

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I mean, that's big. That's like having Elvis on But we'll see. We'll see what what could happen there.

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Anyway, the phones do be a -ringing and So let's let's go ahead and we're going to go across the pond and I'll have an opportunity to use my

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English accent again and Talk with Martin. Hello Martin. Hi James.

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Yes. Yes. My name is James James White nice to meet you Martin. Yes, it's good to hear.

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In fact, it's it's amazing Martin. I heard from Roger today Pastor the pastor

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Brazier called me today and he he's doing a little better He's not been feeling real well recently, but so I'm actually feeling a little bit like using my

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English accent of it Well, it's always good to use James always good. Hey, tell me

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Martin. What's uh, what's the the tomb story doing over there in the UK? Well, there hasn't been too much.

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Um, it was supposed to hit channel 4. I don't know when one of the

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UK papers was very good. It had a two -page spread And it was basically debunking the whole thing.

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That's good. I think the last line was was very Skeptical about Cameron himself.

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Oh, really? so yeah, and it was very balanced and one of the ladies at our church had it and having heard about it beforehand through Alpha Omega ministries.

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I knew a little bit about it. But so when she showed it to me, oh, yes, you know I thought oh, that's interesting

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Yeah. Well, you know It is interesting to me that I think it airs tonight in Canada and you know

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Y 'all don't want to be behind Canada. Do you? Well, I think they're they're queuing us up for Easter Knowing UK TV.

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It's gonna be near Easter Yeah, you're probably right. You're probably but you see they've got the book out and stuff so they want to be selling it on UK Amazon before Before it's you know, they're good be it's on the sale rack for three dollars and fifty cents.

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So Anyway, so anyway, so what so what brings you across the pond today?

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Well two things really It I had to chuckle a little bit about the names they found

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Yes I'm reminded when I was when I was a young a young man or youngster should I say? we we knew a couple the family knew a couple called

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John and Mary short and ironically John and Mary short went on to have two children called

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John and Mary and Even more bizarrely both John and Mary went on to marry couple

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John went on to marry someone called Mary and Mary went on to marry someone called John and I was thinking okay

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So you got John and Mary the the original couple then their children and then they marry somebody in the name of John and Mary And should they be found in the tomb together?

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What's the statistical possibility of that happening? Yeah, yeah, in fact

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I linked this morning to a another mathematician who has

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I think done the the the proper the proper thing in examining the the reality of this particular situation and pointing out what really

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Needs to be analyzed here and and and that is that It's your starting assumptions and even

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Feuerberger who did the the analysis for the film has has come to the same

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He's basically said the same thing just not quite as clearly as this The link is on my blog so you can look it up.

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But this mathematician says for example Interpretation a of Feuerberger's Material there is only a 1 in 600 chance that this is not the

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Jesus family tune or tomb or equivalently there is a 599 to 600 chance that this is the

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Jesus family tomb and He says this interpretation is mathematically statistically and semantically flawed and I am sure that dr.

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Andre Andre for your burger is well aware of that then Interpretation B.

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There is a 1 in 600 chance this particular cluster of names would occur in one of the roughly 1 ,000 tombs discovered so far he says that that is

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An alternative but equivalent to be interpretation of the 1 to 600 odds result is interpretation

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C And this is what he's suggesting and that is if the Jesus family did indeed have a family tomb

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That was among the 1 ,000 found Then there is a 599 in 600 chance that this particular tomb found is

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Indeed that of the Jesus family and then he says clearly these latter and correct

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Interpretations B and C would not sell the TV program very well And and that's the point is you have to establish

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The the probability that the Jesus family would have had a family tomb in Jerusalem, and that's the whole point

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In fact the very quotes that I was pulling out of the book right before the program started I was continuing to work on the book right up to the point where we had to close the door and fire the microphone up Our statements from the book itself.

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This is the GS family tomb book talking about how well You know, it was the elite who had family tombs.

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It was the rich red family tombs It was you know that those who had power in Jerusalem every single one of those things is not descriptive of Jesus of Nazareth yeah, which is not

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Tal Piyot. Okay. There's a difference between the two so More and more stuff's coming out and I I you would enjoy

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I think personally probably seeing the program that they aired after the film where Ted Koppel who is you probably not heard of him much over there, but he's a commentator here in the

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United States reporter he did a an examination of the film for an hour afterwards and he had the various scholars on and He had

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Simcha Yakubovich and he had Tabor on Defending the film but then apart across from them for the first half hour.

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He had two basically secular Historians archaeologists who one of them co -authored a book with the

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John Dominic Crossan. So we're not talking about Conservatives here in any way shape or form. In fact, the first guy doesn't even describe himself as a believer in anything at all

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So he's just a secularist and they ravaged these guys I mean they went after him big time and I if they had been given more time

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They probably would have done even more damage, but they really went after him. I was surprised at couples

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You know, I expected them to be dragging in all the usual suspects But it was actually far more fair than I expected it to be.

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So that is That's encouraging on one level But I think one of the reasons that I'm still exceptionally excited about doing the book is that there's so much information

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There's so many different lines of information now that it's difficult to keep all of them straight.

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You've got the DNA stuff You've got the patina stuff. You've got the statistics stuff you've got all sorts of Gnostic stuff that no one has a clue about as far as the resources and things go, so It's still going to be quite the challenge over the next few

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Next two weeks or so to put this stuff together, but we'll keep pressing forward I was thinking as well in lines in light of this

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You know what? I'll say about these actual people that I knew and what you said about the mitochondrial DNA should their grave be found

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You know two thousand years from now You wouldn't be able to establish which John was the father and which one was the step, you know

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Stepson and which you John was in law or you'd be able to establish maternal you'd be able to preclude

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Certain maternal relationships, but you would not be able to establish paternal relationships

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That's the problem with mitochondrial DNA since it is passed down from the through the maternal line

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And and that's obviously a big issue that we're gonna be talking about in the book and and and things like that But again,

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I think the real reason they did the DNA stuff was so you can have that kind of Authority, you know, we we really did the scholarship.

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We really ransacked we did everything we could well As it was Dems that's been been demonstrated a number of times already.

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No, they didn't but Unfortunately a large portion of the media not all but a large portion of the media is just going with the boilerplate type summary of things where DNA demonstrates that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene and all the rest of stuff and yeah

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We'll be hearing this for a long time and need to know how to respond to it. So yeah What's been the response of the Muslims?

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I haven't you know what I haven't even had time to look I haven't asked any of my sources on that but The Muslims would be would this is just as contradictory to the

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Quran as is the Bible and and from my perspective I'm gonna be I may later on in the program play some

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Shabir Ali stuff about whether Jesus died and I I suppose I should drop Shabir line and ask him what he thinks about it because These are some of his favorite people

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He's I mean members should barely is the one who in our debate said the gospel of Thomas The proto gospel of Thomas is earlier than the gospel of Mark And so they're using the very same stuff the very same sources that he uses all the time

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But here he'd have to reject it because it ends up contradicting the Quran And so I I've I've I've actually thought about that a couple times

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But they they couldn't follow this because it says Jesus died and the Quran says he was taken to heaven So there wouldn't be a body to be dug up.

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Anyways, so I had to laugh that they'd that's a much important for the show that you played they they quote the

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Da Vinci Code Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's down brown and his research is right then

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Cameron and his research is wrong or vice versa because may imagine went to France and had a daughter and a son and You know, which one of these myths you're gonna believe the irony is they even they even quote in regards to the different kinds of traditions the contrast between for some reason now,

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I'm almost gone that the contrary go the contrast between I'm gonna go in there and tie rich up so he quits playing with all the little knobs in there because I keep messing me up here

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The contrast between one Christian tradition says she went to France and then the acts of Philip that says she returned and died in the

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Jordan River Valley It actually says the Jordan but that's a whole nother issue. But yeah, so anyway, alrighty, sir

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Thanks James. Thank you for calling. God bless. All right. God bless. Bye. Bye. Bye eight seven seven seven five three three three four one

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I I must admit I am now just I I am overwhelmed

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At at who I'm now going to be able to have on the program Because I I don't get to in really interview big people.

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I mean really big people I don't get to do this very much and I I just cannot believe that my little my lowly little show that I could put out a request like this somebody must have contacts they just must have contacts because The the the man who is known as the

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Elvis Presley of farm music Has has actually Acquiesced to join me on on the program here.

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Briefly. I Is this and as someone just playing with me or is this truly? Milo, Hotzenbuehler.

18:11

Yeah. Hello. Am I on? Are you on? It is

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Great This was big people and that's me I'm big people.

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Yeah well Milo, Hotzenbuehler I now that the people there might be just one or two people left in my audience not many

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But just one or two people who who because they live in the city and they they don't own a cow

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They they don't they don't know who you are or how to get a hold of your music. So so, you know

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It is but we're trying our best we really have tried the best we've People who don't listen to the pre -show don't know that there have been times that we have

18:54

We have played some of your greatest hits before the program and I depreciate it. You depreciate that that's

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Yeah, I I personally at times find myself just strumming an imaginary guitar and Singing a pickup to lemon it just it just so it moves me.

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It's a good song. Yes I Listen to your

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I listen to your webcast. Oh you do. Oh, yeah, I do it because I want to be smart like you

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But you are smart except the time that you drove the the the tractor into the pond that was

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Some some things was out of my control And your your your lovely wife is so patient Emma Emma and is so patient and she she sings well, too.

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I mean The ball then pick and plump. Yeah The boy from the boy named

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Hudson Buehler. I tell you See, I know I'm a big fan. I know your music. I A lot.

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That's great. Yeah, I do listen to you because I want to keep up on the issues issues Yes, and this is handy.

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I got I put speakers in the in the dairy barn. Yeah Oh the milk barn the cows listen to you too But has that has that helped or hurt has that helped or hurt milk production two of my cows?

20:14

Yeah, I saw him scratching their heads yesterday That's our smart.

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I make a lot of people scratch their heads actually, but I I heard about this Jesus tomb thing

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Yes, that confuses me that confuses you. Yeah, because the Bible says one thing and then these boys these hunny uggers they say another

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I Well, I thought I'd done some research on my own is what

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I done you done some research after church yesterday Yeah, I went in that I went to the cemetery in town.

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Oh Yeah, our town cemetery. What did you find there? Well, here's the thing our town cemetery

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It's named after the Catholic Church in town. St. Peter and Paul Catholic Church Yeah, and so the name of the cemetery is

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Peter Paul mounds. That's the name of the cemetery Yeah, and I went in there and I done some research

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Yeah, I figured if they can find out things by looking at bones so can I yeah It's my daughter

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Dakota, I what did they call the sadistics I done sadistics and I found out the odds are

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Our 600 to one that Jesus was German Really? Yeah 600 to one.

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It's too long to go into on the phone, but I got the research I'm gonna publish a paper in the farm and ranch guide

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Well, we will be looking forward to Research when it comes out as well the rest of the world

21:39

I'm sure I'm certain but you know, you and I both know that that I guess today is someone's birthday and that's what you heard and Spidey Spidey has a birthday.

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So I heard they call her Spidey because she spends all her time on the web Is that right? I think so.

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I think Given the statistics in the chat channel. Yeah, I would say that that is that that would almost make me

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Erected like to but anyway Now I I have a hard time singing in public, you know

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Yeah, I speak in public but you I mean you are you're a mega rock star. So I think

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I sing all the time All the do you do you sing along to lots of times at my concerts most of the time

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I sing until everybody's gone Yeah How long does that normally take it depends on the crowd of the weather?

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Yeah Okay, well we Anyway, we need to us we need to I I know this is a huge thing to ask of you

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But but would it be possible for you to sing? Happy birthday for for for Spidey?

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Oh sure. That's where I called. I would be glad to well, can you join me? That would be

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I Mean, that's it. I will well I can try but I mean you will so overwhelm me with your vocal capacity that it's like I won't even be there

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Oh, that's all right. Oh It's the thought that counts. It's the if you sing lots of notes or just a few

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It's well, but but Milo the last time we tried to do this.

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It really it didn't go well. Oh I have devices. I didn't have them.

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Oh, okay. All right that voice you just heard there Milo is he's the technical type guy Oh, I thought my three minutes was up Well, they still limit you on how much time you get up there in North Dakota, that's a party line party

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Nobody else might need to call. That's right. You know to discuss cooking recipes or something Okay.

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Well, I'll let you I'll let you sort of determine the key because you're the profession. Okay, I'll do my best

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I really everybody out there in the internet land you join into that's where we go Happy birthday to you.

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Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday dear Spidey Happy birthday to you

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That was that was classic and it didn't melt down and the computer didn't blow up and there's no smoke in the other room

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That's very good. Well, my time we sing and nothing blows up. That's good You've experienced that before, huh?

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Yeah well you know Milo now that we've made contact we will have to try to find a time when we can have you on and I can have your music queued up and I can interview you and ask you about like alone again and What was the one about the cow hormones again?

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Oh Super cattle growth hormone super cattle growth hormone. Yes, that's make your beef delicious

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Yeah, bring up the silences the answer to your wish We need to yeah, we need to need to have you on and interview you and then and then maybe even you can convince

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Your your friend Clyde to join us or something like that. You know, oh, yeah, maybe quick. Yeah manager

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Maybe we can get him. That's a possibility. Well, thank you Milo for your call today I just it's just such an honor once again to get to talk to you

25:17

Oh, thanks a lot and it was a pleasure to talk to you. Dr. White you got brains enough for three

25:24

Well, I'm not sure three what but People okay

25:30

Big very big peoples. All right. Okay. Thank you, sir. God bless. Okay. Bye. Bye.

25:35

Bye. Bye Peterson. Yeah. Oh Man Sometimes you just got to have some fun on the program and that's that's what we just We just did right there is had some fun.

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And if you haven't been listening for all that long to know What What that was all about?

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go to www .farmboymusic .com and you will find out that Milo actually exists and Then you if you go back in the archives, you will discover that many moons ago we tried to sing happy birthday to Spidey and as you can tell this is still a sore spot with rich and He's a little sensitive about this.

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But you know, we we got we got through this one. We now had a guest sing Famous guest sing and and the the phone system did not blow up or anything like that So, you know, you're still worrying me in there playing with all those buttons

26:31

It's very clear to me that you're you you're you're up to something and it's it's It ain't broke.

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And so, you know Hey, no attention to the man behind the curtain you left the lights on in there if the lights are off, then

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I wouldn't be able to see you quite so guys are clearly but Anyway, so that's what that was all about.

26:51

So happy birthday Spidey I mean how many how many people get Milo hot singular to sing? Happy birthday to them.

26:57

That's that's a pretty that's a pretty big thing. Alright, so what we're gonna do is I have some clips to play and Since there's not a flood of people

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I think I think people are a tad bit burned out on the tomb at the moment at least until you run into oh

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By the way, I I should have made it clear on the blog. I have an invitation to Lawrence who wrote to me and Who is has accused me of lying to people and dismissing facts and and things like that about the

27:28

About the tomb story. And so I I want to make sure that Lawrence knows that 877 -753 -3341 is toll -free and if he wants to join us and Back up his accusations and and tell us, you know why he said what he said

27:46

I would be happy to have him on and to talk to him about the tomb story and and Give him an opportunity to document what he said and everything else.

27:55

So Lawrence 877 -753 -3341 is a phone number and you can call in and we can have discussion about this story and I'll see if you can answer the questions about the the limitations of mitochondrial

28:09

DNA or the historical context of first century Palestine and ossuaries and the elite having them and family tombs and That wouldn't be genius because he wasn't from Jerusalem and all those things well, we'll see if if you have some insights there that may be a

28:25

Simcha Yakubovich and Charles Pellegrini and Pellegrino and all those other folks don't don't have so give us a call.

28:32

It's toll -free be very very happy to to have you on and You know, we'll go from there.

28:39

So You uh, you make sure to call and if even when I start playing the clips, I've got a

28:45

I've got some Bryson material We need to try to continue finishing on with that. I've got some Shabir Ali stuff

28:50

So even once we start doing that if you want to give us a call just try to just try to make sure to call You know early enough that we've got enough time for all the documentation that you would offer

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About these things because I'm certain you wouldn't call a program or write to a you know

29:07

Someone like myself and make accusations without having, you know, very thoroughly thought through the issues

29:13

I mean, I'd have we ever rich gotten a drive -by email from someone who really hadn't thought through the issues very very much

29:20

Is that like an hourly occurrence? Yeah, that's exactly right it is an hourly occurrence unfortunately and that's probably what we have here

29:30

But hey, the lines are open for Lawrence to call 877 -753 -3341 so we're gonna take our break and then come back with some

29:39

Bryson and Shabir Ali right after this The history of the

30:04

Christian Church pivots on the doctrine of justification by faith Once the core of the Reformation the church today often ignores or misunderstands this foundational doctrine in his book the

30:14

God who justifies theologian James White calls believers to a fresh appreciation of Understanding of and dedication to the great doctrine of justification and then provides an exegesis of the key scripture texts on this theme

30:28

Justification is the heart of the gospel in today's culture where tolerance is the new absolute

30:33

James White proclaims with passion the truth and centrality of the doctrine of justification by faith

30:39

Dr. J. Adams says I lost sleep over this book. I simply couldn't put it down James White writes the way an exegetically and theologically oriented pastor appreciates.

30:49

This is no book for casual reading There is solid meat throughout an outstanding contribution in every sense of the words

30:57

The God who justifies by dr. James White get your copy today at a omen org

31:04

Public crimes the criminal mishandling of God's Word may be James White's most provocative book yet White sets out to examine numerous crimes being committed in pulpits throughout our land every week as he seeks to leave no stone unturned

31:17

Based firmly upon the bedrock of Scripture one crime after another is laid bare for all to see

31:23

The pulpit is to be a place where God speaks from his word what has happened to this sacred duty in our day

31:29

The charges are as follows prostitution using the gospel for financial gain pandering to pluralism cowardice under fire felonious eisegesis entertainment without a license and Cross -dressing ignoring

31:44

God's ordinance regarding the roles of men and women is a public crime occurring in your town Get pulpit crimes in the bookstore at a omen org

32:00

This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church

32:17

The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming

32:23

Lord's Day The morning Bible study begins at 930 a .m. And the worship service is at 1045

32:30

Evening services are at 630 p .m. On Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7

32:36

The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix You can call for further information at 602 -26 -grace

32:46

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And welcome back to dividing line do excuse the smile in my voice. We were just abusing the fellow on our channel that we like to abuse the most often and if you've ever seen the

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John Dominic Crossan debate during the cross -examination You notice there's a part where it sort of looks like your your your

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TV is is going dark or something It's not your TV It was this fellow who we we kick out of channel fairly frequently.

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He was he accidentally turned the lights down there at the at the debate, so that's what you're seeing and he's if you ever like to meet him you can come into channel and his his

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Nick starts with red and I think he got kicked out about four times in the past minute.

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And so anyway, I just I just was asked a question In channel and I gotta admit it's one of those

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It's one of those questions I don't like because I have to work on it and it's it is Difficult and the easy way is is to answer by saying let the parents take care of it

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But this is a parent and the question was how do you explain this stuff to kids? And that is that does sort of take us back to a more sober aspect of things and that is the discovery film though aimed at adults certainly

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Was viewable by children since they did a bunch of reenactments in it this would be something that kids would be using and so our young people will be facing this kind of issue as well and Young people do not have the same level of discernment and so young people are willing to believe almost anything and So obviously there are going to be young people running about Playgrounds and the hallways of junior highs and high schools or even younger

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I know I was I've told the story before but I was sent to the principal in fourth grade for passing out tracks in the playground, so I know that that that that age group it still can't happen and Our young people are going to be being told.

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Well, I saw on TV where they they've proven that Jesus you know didn't rise to the dead and he was married to Mary Magdalene and had a little boy named

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Judah and so on and so forth and providing a response on that level obviously does require the the skills of the parents knowing the

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Intellectual level and capacity and understanding of the of the young person, but obviously what it requires is that the parent have a real firm grasp and know know the subject well enough to be able to Translate it down to wherever that particular child might be

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But once you get to a certain point where you can't be discussing the difference between nuclear DNA and mitochondrial

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DNA And you can't really be discussing the historical context of Jerusalem at the time that demonstrates that Jesus wouldn't have had a family tomb there to begin with and and That it's ridiculous that the

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Jews would not have used that as their primary argumentation against Christianity Because they would have known where this was.

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This was this was not a secret tomb I've not seen anywhere where the book or the film have attempted to say that the film was secret now

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They've tried to say that the burial would have been done in secret, but the tomb itself would not have been And it was not hidden away

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Purposefully out in you know some deserted area or something like that. That's that's not what took place and so You know the argument would be that obviously the

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Jews would start guided tours of Jesus tomb as proof the Christianity wasn't true if in fact it was was not true, and that's one of the major issues, but Eventually what you get down to in talking to younger people would basically be this there are a lot of men and women in the world who

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Rebel against God and who want to live their lives their own way. They don't want to follow God's rules they don't want to follow his ways and it is truly amazing the lengths that they will go to to try and Disprove God's Word, and this is another example of that and the

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These these arguments are are based upon falsehoods, and they are misusing the facts that they have and then creating almost out of whole cloth the rest of their story and As you get older if you have more questions along those lines we can go more in -depth into the particular aspects of it but just remember that there are always people there will always be people in the world who

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Love their sin more than they love God and who do not love the truth and so they will they will pervert and twist the truth, and that's

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That's what they're doing in this situation, so maybe that would be the direction to go there all right Real quickly we need to continue on I'm gonna go ahead and change the order that I want

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I was going to do this I want to I want to go to Shabir Ali do a few minutes with Shabir Ali again remembering

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Any and anytime rich you get a phone call from Lawrence You just let me know and we'll we'll we'll stop

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We're doing and and go to Lawrence here on the dividing line so he can he can back up his accusations

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But I want to begin a series responding to Shabir Ali and a presentation

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He's made on did Jesus died obviously this is quite relevant to the cruise in October And I haven't mentioned that in a while But I'm I hope you're still focusing upon that and I've even had some people ask is there still room to go and yes

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There is room to be on on the the ship in October For the the four -day cruise the fact we'll be doing a class on the ship on the subject of the crucifixion

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And then at the end of the cruise we get off the ship we go to the Sea -Tac Marriott in Seattle And we will be having the debate

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With Shabir Ali on the crucifixion of Christ, and so this is directly Relevant to that particular subject

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I am one of those who unlike many of my opponents Take the time to attempt to listen as carefully as possible and as accurately as possible to what my future opponents

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Say on particular issues especially issues which we will be debating and so I have listened to everything

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I can find of Shabir Ali addressing the issue of atonement crucifixion resurrection

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Gospels etc etc and so I want to share that with you all and I realize of course that by doing this now now

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Shabir Ali is well aware of my webcast and being the smart man that he is will be listening to what

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I say and Some people would say well, that's dumb. You know if you for example discover particular errors in his presentation

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And correct them and document them in this context, then he's not going to make those presentations in the debate

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That's the point. That's the point if you want to have the best debate Then you want to have the best opponent presenting the best argument

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And if there are some problems, and I think there are in Shabir Ali's normal Presentation that he makes then it's best to deal with them now

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Rather than try to be working through them in the brief context of a debate let him bring the best argument he has and obviously if if I Help him to tune his his

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Presentation all the better if you're confident in the truth anyway, and so that's what we're gonna do here

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So let's let's just start into this. It's gonna take a while to work through all of it But here is Shabir Ali's presentation did

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Jesus die Allah the Lord of the worlds and I asked him to send peace and blessings upon the last of all of his prophets

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Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam now ladies gentlemen men and women of understanding

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Did Jesus die for the sins of the world? I'd like to examine this question from a few different perspectives first the

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Quranic perspective and second the Christian perspective First from the

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Quranic perspective did Jesus die for the sins of the world From the

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Quranic perspective the answer has to be no First according to the Quran Jesus did not die

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But God raised him alive into heaven from which place he will come again before the end of the world

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So Jesus did not die and to by implication did not die for the sins of the world second

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From the Quranic perspective no one dies for someone else's sins

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It is quite clear in the Quran that every human being will be held responsible for his or her own

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Actions we are going to be judged according to what we do not according to what someone else has done

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Now, let me just stop just for a moment obviously Shabir is

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Presenting the standard Islamic understanding of denying substitutionary atonement denying the

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The ability of one to take the punishment of God That would be due to their sins

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But it should be pointed out that we do believe that each man will be held accountable

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And in fact has been held accountable and in Adam has been judged guilty and as such abides under the wrath of God and None of my sins are going to simply be dismissed

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My sins will either be atoned Within the context of my own punishment for them or they will be atoned for by Jesus Christ But no sin will go unpunished and one of the key issues

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Of course is the Islamic idea that God can allow his law to be broken the holiness of Allah allows the law to be broken sin to be committed and no punishment extracted that God can just simply wave his hand and His his law can be broken, but there is no atonement made no punishment extracted and he just simply forgives that sin without any basis upon which to do so and that is one of the gonna be one of the key issues to be dealt with in the context once again of Islam claiming to be the continuation of and the fulfillment of that which the prophets taught that was not their belief

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That I mean if you're gonna say Moses was a prophet then you're gonna have to once again do the standard

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Islamic All this stuff has been corrupted stuff Which again is completely inconsistent.

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I mean Muhammad Said he believed it was in the Torah. He placed it upon a cushions that I believe within his book We know what the

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Torah said at that time there's no question about that and that Torah presents to us this concept of Sacrifice this concept of punishment and and all the things related there too.

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So that'll that'll be coming up the debate as well I would imagine Against us or for us.

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In fact to say that someone else has died for my sins would make that someone else

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Suffer in my place from the chronic perspective. This would be unjust This would be a matter of penalizing an innocent person in order that the guilty person should go free so from the

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Perspective of the Quran in brief we can say the answer is no Jesus did not die for the sins of the world but then

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How do we deal with what is commonly called by our Christian friends the sin?

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Problem Our Christian friends see that there's a problem with sin and they wonder how do

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Muslims get forgiveness for sins? How is it understood in Islam that people can just simply walk away?

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Scot -free after having committed sins or is it that just for the purpose of? Saving the human beings

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God would just simply ignore Sins can God really ignore sins our

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Christian friends say no They say God is holy and so he cannot ignore sins our answer is that according to the

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Quranic perspective God does forgive sins it doesn't hurt God in any way if you or I sin

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It does not take anything away from his greatness. It does not reduce his power in any way if we sin

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Now, of course, no one's arguing that has anything to do with reducing his power The issue is holiness the issue is

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The the validity of his law and if his law says the punishment for this is punishment

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X How can he suspend his law without a reason upon a reason for doing?

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So what's the what's the reason that God can give that maintains his holiness to suspend the punishment of the law?

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That's that's what we really need Need to know when we sin we hurt ourselves and this is why we are taught to pray

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Our Lord we have wronged our souls and if you do not forgive us and have mercy on us then

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Surely we are the losers. And of course, yes, we hurt ourselves.

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But see this is that second secondary To the the biblical understanding against you and you alone have

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I sinned? How do you put the the biblical text together with the Quranic text that time again?

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It shows that Muhammad did not know the biblical text and as a result contradicts the concept that is found there there is absolutely no rational reason to believe that those texts said something differently and That Muhammad is right and consistent with what it said at the time, but somehow it's been changed since then

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That's a there's just no read that's pure circular argumentation. You notice in the prayer We say that we have wronged our souls

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Not that we have wronged God in any way because we cannot reduce the status of God We cannot take away anything from his glory by our sinning our sinning hurts us

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And so we ask God to forgive us for our sins. Can God forgive?

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Yes, in fact, God created human beings knowing that we are going to sin from the glorious Quran we know that when

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God created Adam and Eve he created them deliberately knowing that they are going to sin in surah 2 surah

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Baha 'u'llah in the Quran We learned that when God Declared that he is going to create

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Adam The angels asked are you going to create a being who is going to spread corruption and do wrong?

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Whereas we the angels are always Worshiping you and you alone And God replied

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I know what you do not know and as it follows we see that the angels Declare that they know nothing except what

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God has already taught them now putting two and two together It is quite clear that God had already made the angels know from the inception that human beings will be sinners

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That human beings will commit sins It shows that God then deliberately created human beings knowing that they are going to commit sins for what purpose?

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The Prophet Muhammad and whom BP said that if human beings did not commit sins God would wipe them out and bring in their stead another being who would commit sins and Who would ask

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God for forgiveness and God would forgive them It seems clear then that God's purpose in creating us or one of his purposes is that he would exercise

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His ability to forgive sins he created us knowing that we will sin But also willing to forgive that sin whenever we turn back to him the

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Prophet Muhammad Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam said every child of Adam is a sinner

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But the best of sinners are those who repent after having committed sins

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We see then that God according to the Muslim view does not require from us 100 %

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Accuracy in everything that we do God expects us to be Failures at some point in some ways now, of course

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On the level that did God know and was it his purpose that sin is going to exist redemption

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He's going to glorify himself in Christ. So on so forth. Yes, of course But that doesn't change the standard of perfect holiness and that that's where there is such a massive difference between The two that it's it's difficult for me not to say that this this

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Allah Is is not the holy Yahweh of Isaiah chapter 6

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And in fact, it would seem to me given the very anthropocentric Perspective in regards to what we would call soteriology in general in Islam That the the text in Isaiah 6 where Isaiah says, you know, whoa,

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I I am undone I'm a man of unclean lips. I live amongst people of unclean lips Here is this holy holy man and Islam is constantly saying well

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These are perversions of Scripture the prophets were holy so on and so forth and yet here just completely lacking the insight

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Because a man writing 600 years after Christ 1 ,300 years after the ministry of Isaiah without any access to to His writings in original language without any access to the

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Bible in his own language on third or fourth hand knowledge of what Christians and Jews believe comes up with a different perspective and yet this is supposed to be the

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Continuation of the lines of the Apostles and prophets if if Muhammad were a prophet of God Why would he not continue to have the same kind of divine revelation they had and speak in harmony with them?

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obviously it demonstrates that he was not and I can I can only emphasize the fact that there are only a

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Certain number of nations left upon the face of the earth where you can even make that kind of a statement without finding yourself in great trouble and There are many

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Muslims who would like to use in Western countries the hate crimes laws To stop us from even being able to make that factual assertion

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What an amazing thing to consider that and God is willing to overlook those shortcomings and he's willing to set our

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Matters right for us so long as we turn back to him and we ask him to repair our

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Circumstances and men our deeds so obviously there's no concept of spiritual death

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There's no concept of human inability You have a form of Pelagian ism here in essence obviously utilizing terms in a a

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Contextual fashion, but if you want to talk about something where there is no grace involved in turning a man from his sin

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Then that would be a situation where we would be seeing it right now in the Islamic understanding So God then created us knowing that we are going to sin and he's willing to forgive those sins

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We can relate to this concept because many of us have been in school at some point and we have submitted tests

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What would you think of a professor or a teacher who demands from you that unless you get a hundred percent in every test?

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You cannot even pass You're going to think that this professor doesn't seem to understand human nature

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It is within human nature is to the sin So there you've got it right there,

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I think an excellent contrast and insight likening God to a professor in a class and God's holy law to a coursework in a class rather than the very law that's written upon the heart of man and That determines a person's relationship with God There's there's no way to make any of this consistent with the with the prophets of old let alone the

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Apostles of Christ But that is most definitely the Islamic understanding that is part of being human we err

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We make mistakes So God who made human beings already made us knowing the mistakes that we are capable of and if he's not willing to forgive

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We might have the same opinion of him that we might have of the college professor who demands 100 % in every test we know that it is very unusual for anyone to score

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That kind of perfect mark every time which of course in the Christian perspective is why?

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You need someone who does score 100 % all the time in your place

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Which is what the Savior is all about but there there is in Islamic apologetics this idea that well

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You know people might not like the way you're viewing God if he's that way I've heard Shabir and others use this kind of God would appear to be mean or God would appear to be unjust

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Well isn't it interesting that for example the Apostle Paul is always responding to that or the prophets responded to that as well

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To the misunderstandings of people that didn't change their their viewpoint They didn't change their revelation just simply to fit it into something a man's gonna find to be acceptable

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It is indeed rather unusual to have even a straight -a student But straight -a student doesn't mean 100 % in everything it means getting a very high degree of accuracy in Everything and so what

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God? Requires from us is that we should try our best we should always return to God But as much as we return to him and we seek his forgiveness.

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He is willing to forgive us. This is the Quranic perspective There is however according to the glorious Quran one sin, which

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God is not going to forgive Unless a person absolutely turns back and changes his or her ways

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That is the sin of associating partners with God Taking someone else to be worshipped along with God or say which the term he's referring to there is called shirk

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Which is what Christianity is all about because Muslims understand the quote -unquote association of Jesus with Allah as the sin of shirk and In fact it would seem to me that when the

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Quran Has Allah asking Jesus as if he ever taught anyone to worship he and his mother in derogation of Allah That's it was

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Muhammad's idea that the Trinity was Allah Jesus and Mary which of course it never has been and never could be but that seems to be understanding that he had that's what

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This association with God is and this is unforgivable So I'm not sure how a

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Christian could ever be forgiving some things about God Which implies that he has partners or associates saying that God has a wife or a son or or certain?

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Associates or mediators between human beings and God mediators who can dictate for God who to forgive and who not to forgive

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God retains according to the glorious Quran his absolute power in every way and nobody can

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Limit that power in any way There's no way for anyone to have a claim on God to make sure that he acts according to their behest according to their will according to their instructions and Direction so to say any such thing to limit the power of God and make him equal with someone else or make someone else equal

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With him is the unforgivable sin in Islam in order to be forgiven for that sin one has to turn away completely

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Ask God to forgive that person and there's one simple way of doing that by Embracing the religion of Islam the prophet

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Muhammad and whom be peace said that when a person Embraces Islam all of his or her previous sins are forgiven that very moment

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And so then to put it in a nutshell The answer from Islam is no

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Jesus did not die for the sins of the world He did not even die yet Now let's turn for a moment to the biblical perspective and see what we can find there

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Now let me just stop for a moment and if you have seen the debate then you sort of know what's coming in fact

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I'm gonna have to stop right here because I just looked the clock but then you have an idea what's coming What was just presented did not utilize?

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Gnostic sources it did not utilize a modern orientalist and taking apart the text of the

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Quran it was Conservative it assumes Muhammad receives revelation and that God can can preserve that revelation and all these other things

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So are we going to hear the same kinds of sources? used in The biblical presentation or will we hear that stuff that comes from way out in in left field someplace?

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Atomizes the Bible cuts it apart into pieces doesn't allow it to speak consistently with itself, etc.

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Etc. That is what we will find out when we Listen next time

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No, actually we are about 34 seconds late actually in getting things going there

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That's why I'm talking more slowly and stretching things out is

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Because we're going a little overtime today Don't know why but you know,

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I guess we just had so much to say today and I'm wearing a blue watch and Gray shoes,

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I Just love it when a plan comes together and oh

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There it is, yeah We'll pick up with all this on Thursday, we'll see you then

01:00:38

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