Roman Catholic Topics

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 973 460 to or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James White.

And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line. It is Thursday Afternoon, and it's good to be with you on the program today 26th of February. This is it for February. Think about that. Think about that only ten months till Christmas.

Oh My I don't know about the rest of you but time goes by faster and faster and faster every single year and It is it is an amazing thing. 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. I have a number of clips to play, but I'm also inviting your Participation today.

I'm basically throwing it out to everybody to get your thoughts. A book came out I've mentioned in the program. You all know that while back this program was instrumental in bringing to the public's attention the reality of the Reversion of Frank Beckwith back to Roman Catholicism when he was president of the Evangelical Theological Society and we have played some of the clips of Dr. Beckwith explaining and trying to defend his conversion and we have noted that there was a Book coming out which did come out.

It was I think waiting for me and I got back from yeah It was waiting for I got back from London. I really haven't said anything about it because There just isn't much to it, I'll be perfect honest with you before the notes you're looking at a hundred and thirty pages.

Most of it's just you know personal chit-chat type stuff. It's Painfully obvious that dr. Beckwith is a philosopher not a historian or a theologian and But at the same time there are you know assertions made here is nothing new.

There's nothing overly, you know. You know nothing we haven't discussed before but because it is Beckwith and because the book is the kind of book Well look at Rome sweet home. I mean, there's nothing much in that either, but how many thousands of copies of that have been distributed and handed out we've had a pastor and channel that has been reading through it and quoting stuff from it and and basically, the question is is would it be appropriate to to write a response to it to focus upon the issues that Beckwith raises as I said, not really anything new there, but Is is is that something that would be worthwhile in The investment of our time in essence, so if you think so or think not you can let us know eight seven seven seven five three three three four one Already have one call.

Let's go ahead and take that like I say We've got clips and all sorts of other things to play on the dividing line today always goes fast. But let's start with our first caller and let's talk with Bob.

Hi Bob.

Hello.

Well, I was really loud. Yes, sir. You're you're really loud for some reason. Oh, yes, sir. Did you change something when you change? Okay, we are not getting hold of Bob some and Bob is hung up. Something's going wrong.

What did you change when when that guy called and the the music was on the line? Remember. That was something else, huh? Well, it's ringing again. So let's see if we can get Bob back. That doesn't I have.

I have no earthly idea what's going on there it just was feeding back really badly and it was and I just saw rich do the oh, it's a Skype. Skype phone. Oh, okay. Well folks Skype. I work with Skype phones.

And I don't have Skype up so I have no idea why that would cause a feedback or anything like that at all. So let's go ahead and try it again. See if it works here. Let's try it now, Bob. I can but you're still squeaking a lot.

That's alright, maybe we can if you can get the hell it's every time. You can't hear. Okay. Well, let's still thanks a lot. Okay, Bob's Skype phone is not functioning correctly, so we apologize for that well, we'll go ahead and move on with another caller as soon as we've got it put up here and and and I'm stretching as long.

That's like. And let's talk to Larry. Hi, Larry. Hello, Larry. Hello, Larry. Evidently we hit something something's just not right here. Are you there Larry? Can I put Larry back on hold and I'll let rich figure out what's going on here?

Cuz obviously we did something and the callers can't hear me anymore. So I'm gonna go ahead and play some clips and we'll get back to our callers. I apologize. Something has happened to the phone system since last program.

We hit a button. Something's going on and we can't talk to our callers right now. So We'll we'll see what we can hopefully hopefully my computer will play. So while while rich ponders the situation out there I've got some clips here that I'm gonna play one from John Martin Yoni and It is on how to interpret the Bible.

Let's listen to a Roman Catholic interpret.

Roman Catholic Eisegesis of Romans 3 and James 5

Scripture the thing is is you have to understand that when somebody used when there's a phrase that appears in Scripture It's not necessarily meant to be taken in an absolute term. For example, and in a lot of people turn to Romans chapter 3 to say that Oh will Mary was sinful because in Romans 3 verse.

What's the exact verse? 20 23 it says for there's no distinction since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God's see all have sinned And fallen short of the glory of God. So Mary sinned so she's you know, not immaculately conceived and without sin all of her life.

Etc, etc. Well, but they don't go back and look at verse 10 and 11 which says none is righteous. No, not one. Well in James 5 it says the prayer of a righteous man availeth much. Well if no one is righteous no not one.

Well, who are these righteous men whose prayer avails much and then verse 11? No one understands. No one seeks for God. Well, a lot of people are seeking for God. I'm seeking for God. A lot of non Catholics are seeking for God.

A lot of Catholics a lot of people are seeking for God. But it says no one is seeking for God. So if you take it as an absolute. You're missing the boat when it comes to interpreting these verses. Well, there you go.

As if you're seeking God, then that that means that that there's no. So, did you notice that what Paul's argument is is irrelevant. What the context is is irrelevant. It's just well, you know I can't mean that because we know Mary, you know was immaculately conceived.

I mean, we know Paul knew that. And you know Paul says that you know, there's none that seek after God, but I am and. There's none righteous, but we know all sorts. I mean Bible even says the prayer of a righteous man and.

And you just you you sit there and and you go.

What?

This this is this this is biblical Catholic apologetics. The prayer of a righteous man, how is that righteous man righteous? Well, he's of course only righteous by the grace of God, which is Paul's point.

There is none righteous in and of themselves that's something that God has to do a and then be I'm seeking after God. Well, really then why are you following a false gospel? Mr. Martin Yoni? Why are you following a gospel?

That's focused upon man. It's focused upon your accomplishments and filled with things that the the biblical writers had no idea of. Maybe it's just possible that what Paul is talking about is that there is none who in their natural state Seek after God that by grace God must change the heart first, but you don't get any interpretation of the text itself instead you get well, it can't mean that because of My traditional theology over here my traditional theology over there now.

Obviously, I've heard lots of non Catholics present the same kind of Eisegesis reading into the text something it's not there, but I also would just have to ask mr. Martin Yoni. Where is the church ever interpreted those texts that way?

Where is the where's this infallible interpretation of the church? That's what I would like to know. Well, it's it's found in you know, because of the you know, the Immaculate Conception that that's that's how we interpret the Bible.

And so it's over so it becomes very backwards at that particular that particular time. But there there you have just as a segment of interpretation from the The rather odd perspective there now, let's go to someone who's a little Better known and that is to Tim Staples now here.

We have a Beautiful beautiful text of Scripture brought up Romans chapter 8 and how many times we discussed Romans chapter 8? We have looked at verse 28 and and We followed that through the golden chain of redemption and the entire entire Argument that flows from that who can bring a charge against God's elect.

You have the intercessory work of Christ the perfection of his work the the decree of God all this Wonderful wonderful stuff resulting in this great hymn of praise. It's beautiful Beautiful, but what we didn't seem to understand we were missing something somewhere along the lines what we didn't seem to understand.

Is is that this was actually teaching us something about praying to the Saints? Yeah, yeah there there you go. And and now we'll get to find out by by listening to Tim Staples if you're a Christian and you die.

You do not cease being a member of the body of Christ. That Connection if you will with the other members of the body of Christ doesn't see it and it see cease. In fact if you die in Christ You are more radically joined to the other members of the body of Christ than you were when you were alive.

And so we see as Paul teaches in Romans chapter 8 verse 35. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ. Shall persecution or famine or nakedness or peril or sword? And once again the answer is is no and I'll skip down to verse 37.

He says we are more than conquerors through him who has loved us. For I am persuaded that neither death nor life nor angels nor Principalities nor powers nor things present nor things to come nor height nor depth nor any other creature shall be able to separate us From the love of God which is in Christ Jesus.

When we see this that death doesn't separate us From Christ or from one another all of the sudden Jesse we start to see why Catholics would ask Our deceased brothers and sisters to pray for us because they're alive in the spirit.

They are so connected to us. Of course, they would want to pray for us and we need their prayers.

There you go. That I you know, I have worked through Romans chapter 8 So many times I've done presentations on everything else and if I had just had the Roman Catholic interpretation. And I'm again, I'm not sure where mr. Staples finds this infallibly defined but Be that as it may then my entire presentation would have been different because I missed the point I Mean when I followed this through it seemed like the focus Was upon what God was doing, you know, you look at the wrong the the golden chain of redemption and You have this this this truth.

Concerning the the centrality of God's glory and the fact that that he has Foreknown a people and that he has predestined the people and that he has has then Called them and and justified them and glorified them and that this is all the Father the Son the Spirits doing and that because of all this, you know We you know what shall we say if he has if the father has has given Christ in our in our behalf then who can be against us and And will he not with him freely give us all things and we have Christ their intercessor and we have have all of this stuff.

And it seemed to me That the whole point of neither death nor life nor principalities or power is a height or depth. That what that actually was talking about was was that there is nothing in the created order that can separate us from this sovereign love of God in Christ Jesus and that this was all about God and this was all about his sovereignty and his power and his glory and and all of that that's I Just missed that the real issue was that Death will not separate us from praying for each other and that therefore What should what should happen is is that we should be confident that we will be able to?

Pray for one other even after we're dead. And that that's that's why you need Rome folks because if all you had was just the inspired text of Scripture then How could you have ever come to that conclusion?

How could you have ever been able to to figure all of that out? I Interrupt to start chuckling because I watch you know Rich has been sitting here this whole time it's been it's been very distracting and he just has this look on his face and He's just looking at everything and looking at everything.

He's pressing a little button here. He's pressing a little button there and And he's just going this this just should work this this is supposed to work and so he he just got Just stood up and and he comes around the corner a little bit and to where he can see the back of this soundboard Which is really it's a you know a rat's nest the back of a soundboard well, that's what I get to stare at all the time is I see him over this rat's nest and he reaches over and he he grabs a A cord and he pulls on a little bit and it comes up because it's not connected to nothing.

However, he's now looking at the instructions and That means that tells me that we're still not ready to take our callers yet. Are we? Nope. Nope. I'm getting this this this It looks like some of the chewing gum the bailing wire done broke underneath some Place, so I'm sorry Bob.

I'm sorry Larry. Well, we'll get to you if we can it's the first time we've had this happen, but Actually, I think it has happened, you know. Not here, but I think is it happened back at back at the old place.

Well, this is a totally different system. We upgrade we sold that well, I know but I mean we've had a situation where all of a sudden we just couldn't We couldn't function as far as calls go. So, you know Someone else will Might be able to get to him might not don't know I won.

I wonder though with that that feedback if that has if that doesn't have something to do with Something's fried something's gone. You know that doesn't that doesn't sound good to me That that would be happening.

So I mean I haven't smelled any smoke. But if the if the Gettner system went down then I'm not sure what we're gonna do. Maybe we'll have to do something along the lines of Skyping in or something. I don't know but we certainly couldn't set that up today.

That would be Simply impossible. So we'll say we'll see I see a third isn't it? Wonderful three lines lines lit up. Oh third one is you okay? So you're you're calling in so you can find out if you can hear us, huh?

So the guys online can't hear me right now. Well, they can't hear me guys kid just can't talk to them.

Yeah, our challenge is they can hear you when they're on hold. But as soon as we put them on air, they can't hear you anymore.

But I can hear them.

Yeah, I think I can hear that. But I'm wondering if that I'm wondering that squeal we were getting we've discovered is not the is not Skype. It it was the the comrex system. We're using here. Oh. That doesn't sound good.

We don't have a Gettner anymore. We have a comrex stack. Okay, so just you know, so use the proper terms.

Okay. Thanks. Appreciate that. Too bad, it's not being operated properly. But anyways. But I'm bummed. Yeah, go ahead and get up with me as you know, I know you can turn my microphone off that's okay.

Okay. So yes, I know you all can hear me, but could you all hear the callers when they can't? Well, yes, they could hear the callers they came on because they were talking about the screeching. So Hmm man, there are any comrex engineers in the audience.

Maybe you could give us a call and we can figure out Anyhow returning to Tim Stables because we may be focused upon these things return to Tim Stables Clearly and it's worse comes to worse I'll just have to have rich sort of summarize phone calls and we'll go from there because I don't want to keep people on hold if we're not gonna get to them, but I Think we lost Bob and in Chicago, maybe Bob was calling about the Beckwith thing.

Maybe Maybe rich got some information from him. We can go from there, but returning to to Tim Staples then it is it is amazing to me and I know I was being facetious, but having listened to Tim Staples for many many years now and Hearing him for example, I have another clip we may get to it may not where he's talking about the Historical reality of the papacy.

I'll never forget hearing him saying and I it was on an old cassette tape. So this will give you some idea how long ago this was this about 95 96, but I remember him very very clearly stating that every single early church father Interpreted Matthew 16 the way the modern Roman Catholic Church does every single one now.

I knew that was wrong and I had to leave the option open. You know when someone says Jimmy Swaggart made me a Roman Catholic that that tells you a lot about Where they're coming from that he just simply doesn't know.

But he still makes these incredibly huge claims along these lines. And so when it comes to interpretation of the Bible What you just heard is Is Sadly standard fare for what you hear from Roman Catholic apologists remember just a few weeks ago.

I was Commenting. I'm not sure if I did on the program, but I well I did later I I I noted that Matthew Bellisario had actually agreed that most the Roman Catholic apologists put out fluff books their books are just There's no substance to them.

It's a little bit like the Beckwith book You know Patrick Madrid's book that he just put out with you know You quote a quote a section of Scripture you write two little short paragraphs that have no Aesthetical value whatsoever and you call it good and that's what Rome produces.

Am I completely off base? To go, you know, if this was the one true church, this isn't what I would expect if your claims are correct. This is not what I would expect. I would expect clarity. I would expect perspicuity I would expect that the The the one true church would be able to provide Tremendous insight into the text of Scripture, but that's not what we get Now I've got someone smiling on the other side of the glass.

Are we are we up and up and operational?

Yeah, but you're gonna need to reset your screen over there. You have to log back in and you know, it's when it out. Reset resetting is always a very good thing. So we reset resetting our callers call back in and we should be good to go.

I just tested it and it works.

Resetting is something that's Microsoft invented. Now it just reset. I mean I just opened it back up, but I don't have a screen anymore. In other words where the where the phones are it's gone. I'm sorry.

Maybe I should log back out again. Okay. So in other words we log in slow. Reese. I'd be like there have been a couple times in the program I've had to reset my laptop because it just it just wouldn't.

Not a slam. I do not use my Mac in the studio, dude. So no, I all there are no Macs in the studio we haven't been able to go there yet so it's up now, okay. In fact, I have to use. Well, I don't know if I should say it's on the air, but I have to use Internet Explorer.

Yeah, okay. It's working and Bob is. Bob is back up as by my and that's actually real. All right. Okay, everybody. Hold on Hold on. Here we go. Five four three two. Hello Bob. And I can hear you. Oh.

He does.

He's willing to well after. Well, I have to admit he sat there staring at everything for at least five minutes before he got the manual out so. Well anymore most of the times the directions are in English.

You can't really figure them out anyways, but anyhow, we've we've got you back online. Maybe Larry can call back in too. But what can we do for you, Bob? Yes, sir.

Oh, please let's. If it's what I think it is then.

Your level of sanctification just dropped about four levels, but that's okay. Oh.

Yes, I told him that I cannot remember what it was. Well, was it was it either his statement that the New Testament is the earliest attested of any ancient book or where he said?

I don't know anything. I know almost nothing about Islam and or about the Quran.

Well, there's no question that he is.

The favorite person to cite on from their perspectives. But the fact the matter is the vast majority of Muslims who cite him have never read him. They really don't know where he's coming from and and they should be embarrassed citing an individual who does not believe in essence in supernatural revelation whatsoever and Doesn't really evidently have the the guts to come out and say that in regards to Islam.

He should he should be very clear about that, but he won't because he's politically correct. So he wants to keep his position there but it is it is really really inconsistent for for Muslims to be using someone like this and and You know, I recognize that that even individuals who who might have a an otherwise Fair spirit and dealing with these issues.

They they see a barter man and he sounds and that sounds great. I think I'll go ahead and grab him and and and utilize him and they don't realize that that they're really badly Reflecting upon their own position in the process, but I once I get done here.

I'm going to be Trying to find the time to blog real quickly. Couple days ago. I put up a link to a t-shirt that has that Bart Ehrman quote on it. Well, there's a brand there's there's a new there's there's gonna be two versions of it now.

There's that one and there's one where p52 is a little bit larger. And so I'm gonna link to the so there's a there's a page you can go to you can pick which one you like best Then go to it, but it has that quote.

It's called the second century witness and it's all those manuscripts from the second century. That's that you can have on your t-shirt. So, I mean, I'm sure that'll get lots of conversations started if you're a geek, but other than that.

Yeah. Obviously my hope is that that lots of people will listen to that and they will will know how to respond to folks. Because the majority of folks using Ehrman information Have not actually read the original context themselves they're just they're just throwing stuff out there and hopefully if people listen to the debate, they'll be able to.

Provide the proper context. Well, make sure you just put the t-shirts and three extra large and I'm there.

Getting together to do what?

Radio show or discussion or something?

Well, I know that I know that we had a caller who end up becoming quite upset with rich later on. Remember now rich is looking very confused. We had a caller that wanted to get get a debate between Michael Brown and I going member and I thought that he had called later become quite upset with you.

Because he was demanding and that I debate him and stuff. Not ringing any bells at all.

Well, I thought it was funny because I just got turned on in dr. Michael mine, right? And I was listening to him and then I listened to the you know, the dividing line at work. You know my iPod. Hey, and then I just called in his radio show and I actually mentioned I was listening to you as well.

I understand the caller. The caller was. Was yeah named Joe. Yeah now you know you remember what I'm talking about? Yes. Okay. Yeah, and Joe Joe wanted to hear a debate between myself and Michael Brown on reformed theology because dr Brown is not reformed and I am and he felt that that would be a higher level discussion than maybe with Dave hunt or something.

Like that, which obviously it would be. And then I guess. What was what was the context rich of why why was there such a well not to go?

Very far with with brother Joe. He was having a bad day. And I will leave it at that. Okay, but you know when you say, you know, somebody called up and yelled at me. I I get yelled at so much That you know, I couldn't figure out which one you were talking about.

Okay, well, I'm sorry to hear that but unfortunately, oh well, hey, okay. All right. All right. Hey, we're gonna take our take our break. Thanks. Thanks a lot for your call Bob. Thanks for being patient.

All right, God bless. 877 -753 -3341 is the phone number. We're gonna take our break. Let's hope that that'll work and Hopefully Larry will call us back and we'll be able to talk to him and your calls as well.

877 -753 -3341. We'll be right back.

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Thank you Boy after all that I really need this to Couple of notches that was crazy.

Alrighty well that sort of does emphasize the fact that If you look at the Alpha Omega Ministries store page You will see a a new item called designated donation for facilities upgrades. Which indicates once again how bad we are at promoting ourselves?

That's almost a Puritan sermon title. I Just saw it as like okay, all right well, we'll let we'll let Barry loose on that one and come up with something but Here's here's the story. We we rent facilities here, and we've got a really good deal on what the amount of space We have we really really do.

I think we've been very good stewards along those lines especially you know trying to have The place secure and stuff like that anyway. We have access to a comms room. We've never used the Facility says go ahead and use it it is the perfect studio of video studio and What we want to do is get this room fixed up so that we can put the cameras we have in there the cameras we've taken to do debates and stuff like that and I need to take a lot of these presentations that I do in churches on Islam the New Testament Roman Catholicism Mormonism whatever it might be and I need to record these things.

We need to be able to have me speaking and then switch to the keynote presentation and back again Etc etc mix this in and create DVDs then the desire is to to help maximize my time and the impact that we can have and Utilize the technology that's available to us today.

The idea is that we would send out these DVDs to a church for example. This September I'm gonna be going to to Santa Fe now. It's not like I I want to no longer do this, but let's face it. Economic time is very difficult.

It costs money to fly people places. And so here's the idea we send out the DVD you play the DVD which has the presentation. So you've you've got you know the the best presentation we can put out there.

And then we use the net and maybe even using something like Skype because Skype has upgraded the new beta Allows for higher resolution it allows for switching between things. I could switch to my Desktop for example and show Libranics or Bible works or whatever resource I'm using The cut on whatever the topic might be but then do live interaction Q &A with the congregation.

So if you did this on a Friday night You could have the people in you watch the DVD and then we hook up and I do live Q &A. And I can see the audience. You could have people come up in front of a camera so I could see them directly you would see me and that we could do the live Q &A that way and Then when it's over I get to go home and so do you and that means we could greatly increase The number of contacts that we would be able to be having but we've got to have some place to do it in essence.

We've got to be I have some place to record the original Videos and those of you who know about this know How much time we're talking about here as far as my preparation and the effort on my part and But I want to do this.

I want to make that kind of information available in the midst of writing all these books and everything else. Yeah, we're As I as I see it given the economic situation in the future. The only way that we're going to be able to continue doing this is to try to do more work harder for less.

That's That's just the reality in a depression, so I'm certainly willing to do it because I see a massive need for it and So you'll see an item in the shopping cart that you can donate toward you can put five dollars you can put $50.

You can put whatever To help us to because right now the conference room is a 1959 era conference room and so we need to Be able to for example put appropriate air conditioning in there because this is Phoenix, Arizona and Electronic equipment you know how it is I would be sweating all over myself very quickly especially given something called lights.

So we need to be able to make it. We're not looking at doing something super fancy or anything like that but we need to be able to put in a drop ceiling and the carpeting is is completely gone and So it's not a big room, but there's there's things that need to be done To be able to do this and so we just put that there to let you know about it and So you can see that in in the shopping cart In the store on the website, and it'll probably have a much more attractive name Come a few days from now, but it'll be it'll be right there.

It'd be easy for you to find it. So I wanted to mention that to you and now that we have all these folks on hold Let's get to him as quick as we can and the ever patient Larry hello, Larry I can hear you, and you can you can hear me, huh?

I can I can that's a wonderful thing I.

Put the dividing line. About a month or so ago and You know I my I bought my son an iPhone, and he gave me his iPod. So I decided to make some good use of it. Found some podcasts to download so I've been listening to your there so now and One of the things that's really become you know apparent to me is just how ignorant I am of the scriptures and I.