Roman Catholic Topics

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 973 4602 or toll -free across the

United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

James White And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line. It is

Thursday Afternoon, and it's good to be with you on the program today 26th of February.

This is it for February Think about that Think about that only ten months till Christmas.

Oh My I don't know about the rest of you but time goes by faster and faster and faster every single year and It is it is an amazing thing 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1

I have a number of clips to play, but I'm also inviting your Participation today,

I'm basically throwing it out to everybody to get your thoughts A book came out

I've mentioned in the program. You all know that a while back this program was instrumental in bringing to the public's attention the reality of the

Reversion of Frank Beckwith back to Roman Catholicism when he was president of the

Evangelical Theological Society and we have played some of the clips of Dr.

Beckwith explaining and trying to defend his conversion and we have noted that there was a

Book coming out which did come out. It was I think waiting for me and I got back from yeah It was waiting for I got back from London.

I really haven't said anything about it because There just isn't much to it

I'll be perfect honest with you before the notes you're looking at a hundred and thirty pages

Most of it's just you know, personal chit -chat type stuff. It's Painfully obvious that dr.

Beckwith is a philosopher not a historian or a theologian and But at the same time there are you know assertions made here is nothing new

There there's nothing overly, you know You know nothing we haven't discussed before but because it is

Beckwith and because the book is the kind of book Well, look at Rome Sweet Home, I mean there's nothing much in that either

But how many thousands of copies of that have been distributed and handed out? we've had a pastor and channel that has been reading through it and quoting stuff from it and and basically, the question is is would it be appropriate to to write a response to it to focus upon the issues that Beckwith raises as I said, not really anything new there, but Is is is that something that would be worthwhile in The investment of our time in essence, so if you think so or think not you can let us know eight seven seven seven five three three three four one

Already have one call. Let's go ahead and take that Like I said, we've got clips and all sorts of other things to play on the dividing line today always goes fast

But let's start with our first caller and let's talk with Bob. Hi Bob Hello Well, I was really loud.

Yes, sir. You're you're really loud for some reason. Oh, yes, sir Did you change something when you change it?

Okay, we are not getting hold of Bob some and Bob is hung up Something's going wrong.

What did you change when when that guy called and the the music was on the line?

Remember That was something else, huh? It's ringing again. So let's see if we can get

Bob back That doesn't I have I have no earthly idea what's going on there it just was feeding back really badly and it was and I just saw rich do the oh, it's a

Skype Skype phone. Oh, okay. Well folks Skype I work with Skype phones

I I And I don't have Skype up so I have no idea why that would cause a feedback or anything like that at all

So let's go ahead and try it again. See if it works here. Let's try it now Bob I can but you're still squeaking a lot

That's all right, maybe we can if you can get It's every time you can't hear.

Okay. Well, what's still thanks a lot Okay, Bob's Skype phone is not functioning correctly, so we apologize for that well, we'll go ahead and move on with another caller as soon as we've got it put up here and and and I'm stretching as long

That's like And let's talk to Larry. Hi Larry Hello, Larry Hello, Larry Evidently we hit something something's just not right here.

Are you there Larry? Okay, I'm gonna put Larry back on hold and I'll let rich figure out what's going on here because obviously we did something and The callers can't hear me anymore.

So I'm gonna go ahead and play some clips and we'll get back to our callers. I apologize Something has happened to the phone system since last program.

We hit a button Something's going on and we can't talk to our callers right now. So We'll we'll see what we can.

Hopefully. Hopefully my computer will play. So while while rich ponders the situation out there

I've got some clips here. Then you play one from John Martin Yoni and It is on how to interpret the

Bible. Let's listen to a Roman Catholic interpret Scripture the thing is is you have to understand that when somebody used when there's a phrase that appears in Scripture It's not necessarily meant to be taken in an absolute term.

For example in in a lot of people turn to Romans chapter 3 to say that Oh will

Mary was sinful because in Romans 3 verse What's the exact verse?

20 23 it says for there's no distinction since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God's see all have sinned

And fallen short of the glory of God, so Mary sinned so she's you know Not immaculately conceived and without sin all of her life, etc, etc well

But they don't go back and look at verse 10 and 11 which says none is righteous

No, not one. Well in James 5 it says the prayer of a righteous man availeth much Well, if no one is righteous, no, not one

Well, who are these righteous men whose prayer avails much and then verse 11?

No one understands. No one seeks for God well a Lot of people are seeking for God.

I'm seeking for God a lot of non -catholics are seeking for God a lot of Catholics A lot of people are seeking for God, but it says no one is seeking for God.

So if you take it as an absolute You're missing the boat when it comes to interpreting these verses.

Well, there you go If you're seeking God, then that that means that that there's no

So did you notice that what Paul's argument is is irrelevant What the context is is irrelevant.

It's just well, you know I can't mean that because we know Mary, you know was immaculately conceived.

I mean, we know Paul knew that and You know

Paul says that you know, there's none that seek after God, but I am and There's none righteous, but we know all sorts.

I mean Bible even says the prayer of a righteous man and And you just you you sit there and and you go

What? This this is this this is biblical Catholic apologetics

The prayer of a righteous man, how is that righteous man righteous? Well, he's of course only righteous by the grace of God, which is

Paul's point. There is none righteous in and of themselves that's something that God has to do a and then be

I'm seeking after God. Well, really then why are you following a false gospel?

Mr. Martin Yoni? Why are you following a gospel? That's focused upon man. It's focused upon your accomplishments and filled with things that the the biblical writers had no idea of Maybe it's just possible that what

Paul is talking about is that there is none who in their natural state Seek after God that by grace

God must change the heart first, but you don't get any interpretation of the text itself instead you get well, it can't mean that because of My traditional theology over here my traditional theology over there now

Obviously, I've heard lots of non Catholics present the same kind of Eisegesis reading into the text something that's not there, but I also would just have to ask mr.

Martin Yoni Where is the church ever interpreted those texts that way? Where is the where's this infallible interpretation of the church?

That's what I would like to know Well, it's it's found in you know, because of the you know, the Immaculate Conception that it that's that's how we interpret the

Bible And so on so forth so it becomes very backwards at that particular that particular time But there there you have just as a segment of interpretation from the

The rather odd perspective there now, let's go to someone who's a little Better known and that is to Tim Staples now here

We have a Beautiful beautiful text of Scripture brought up Romans chapter 8 and how many times we discussed

Romans chapter 8 we have looked at verse 28 and and We followed that through the golden chain of redemption and the entire entire

Argument that flows from that who can bring a charge against God's elect You have the intercessory work of Christ a perfection of his work then the decree of God all this

Wonderful wonderful stuff resulting in this great hymn of praise It's beautiful Beautiful, but what we didn't seem to understand we were missing something somewhere along the lines what we didn't seem to understand

Is is that this was actually teaching us something about praying to the

Saints? Yeah, yeah there there you go And and now we'll get to find out by by listening to Tim Staples if you're a

Christian and you die You do not cease being a member of the body of Christ that Connection if you will with the other members of the body of Christ doesn't see it and see cease

In fact if you die in Christ You are more radically joined to the other members of the body of Christ than you were when you were alive

And so we see as Paul teaches in Romans chapter 8 verse 35

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ shall persecution or famine or nakedness or peril or sword?

And once again the answer is is no and I'll skip down to verse 37 He says we are more than conquers through him who has loved us for I am persuaded that neither death nor life nor angels nor Principalities nor powers nor things present nor things to come nor height nor depth nor any other creature shall be able to separate us

From the love of God which is in Christ Jesus when we see this that death doesn't separate us

From Christ or from one another all of the sudden Jesse we start to see why

Catholics would ask The our deceased brothers and sisters to pray for us because they're alive in the spirit

They are so connected to us. Of course, they would want to pray for us and we need their prayers.

I mean, there you go That I you know, I have worked through Romans chapter 8 as so many times

I've done presentations on everything else and if I had just had the Roman Catholic interpretation and I'm again

I'm not sure where mr. Staples finds this infallibly defined but Bit as it may then my entire presentation would have been different because I missed the point

I Mean when I followed this through it seemed like the focus was upon what

God was doing, you know, you look at the road the the golden chain of redemption and You have this this this truth

Concerning the the centrality of God's glory and the fact that that he has

Foreknown a people and that he has predestined the people and that he has has then called them and and justified them and glorified them and That this is all the

Father the Son the Spirit's doing and that because of all this, you know

We you know what shall we say if he has if the Father has has given Christ in our in our behalf then who can be against us and Will he not with him freely give us all things and we have

Christ their intercessor and we have have all of this stuff And it seemed to me

That the whole point of neither death nor life nor principalities or powers or height or depth

That what that actually was talking about was was that there is nothing in the created order

That can separate us from this sovereign love of God in Christ Jesus and that this was all about God and this is all about his sovereignty and his power and his glory and and all of that that's

I just missed that the real issue was that Death will not separate us from praying for each other and that therefore

What should what should happen is is that we should be confident that we will be able to Pray for one other even after we're dead

And that's that's why you need Rome folks because if all you had was just the inspired text of Scripture then

How could you have ever come to that conclusion? How could you have ever been able to to figure all of that out?

I interrupt to start chuckling because I watch you know, Rich has been sitting here this whole time it's been it's been very distracting and he just has this look on his face and He's just looking at everything and looking at everything.

He's pressing a little button here. He's pressing a little button there and And he's just going this this just should work.

This this is supposed to work. And so he he just got Just stood up and and he comes around the corner a little bit and to where he can see the back of this soundboard

Which is really it's a you know a rat's nest the back of a soundboard well, that's what I get to stare at all the time is

I see him over this rat's nest and he reaches over and he he grabs a

Chord and he pulls on a little bit and it comes up because it's not connected to nothing However, he's now looking at the instructions and That means that tells me that we're still not ready to take our callers yet.

Are we? Nope. Nope. I'm getting this this this it looks like some of the chewing gum the bailing wire done broke underneath some

Place, so I'm sorry Bob. I'm sorry, Larry we'll get to you if we can it's the first time we've had this happen, but I Actually, I think it has happened, you know

Not here, but I think is it happened back at back at the old place. Well, this is a totally different system

We upgrade we sold that well, I know but I mean we've had a situation where all of a sudden we just couldn't

We couldn't function as far as calls go. So, you know Who knows? Well Might be able to get to him might not don't know

I won I wonder though with that that feedback if that has if that doesn't have something to do with Something's fried something's gone

You know that doesn't that doesn't sound good to me that that would be happening so I Mean, I haven't smelled any smoke like that, so But if the if the

Gettner system went down then I'm not sure what we're gonna do Maybe we'll have to do something along the lines of skyping in or something.

I don't know But we certainly couldn't set that up today. That would be Simply impossible. So we'll say we'll see

I see a third isn't it? Wonderful three lines lines lit up Third one is you okay.

So you're you're calling in so you can find out if you can hear us So so the guys online can't hear me right now.

Oh, they can't hear me. I just can't just can't talk to them Yeah, our challenge is they can hear you when they're on hold, but as soon as we put them on air

They can't hear you anymore But I can hear them Yeah, I think

I can hear them But I'm wondering if I'm wondering that squeal we were getting we've discovered is not the is not

Skype It was the the comrex system we're using here. Oh, oh, that doesn't sound good.

We don't have a Gettner anymore We have a comrex stack. Okay, so just you know, so use the proper terms.

Okay. Thanks. Appreciate that Too bad. It's not being operated properly. But anyways But I'm bummed

Yeah, go ahead and get uppity with me I you know, I know you can turn my microphone off that's okay

Okay, so yes, I know you all can hear me but could you all hear The callers when they can't well, yes, they could hear the callers they came on because they were talking about the screeching.

So Hmm. Yeah, there any comrex engineers in the audience. Maybe you could give us a call and we can figure

Anyhow returning to Tim's tables because we may be focused upon these things return to Tim's tables

Clearly It's worse comes to worse I'll just have to have rich sort of summarize phone calls and we'll go from there because I don't want to keep people on hold if we're not gonna get to him, but I Think we lost

Bob and in Chicago Maybe Bob was calling about the Beckwith thing. Maybe Maybe rich got some information from him.

We can go from there, but returning to to Tim Staples then it is

It is amazing to me and I know I was being facetious but having listened to Tim Staples for many many years now and Hearing him for example,

I have another clip we may get to it may not where he's talking about the historical reality the papacy

I'll never forget hearing him saying and I it was on an old cassette tape

So this will give you some idea how long ago this was this about 95 96 But I remember him very very clearly stating that every single early church father

Interpreted Matthew 16 the way the modern Roman Catholic Church does every single one now.

I knew that was wrong and I had to leave the option open

You know when someone says Jimmy Swaggart made me a Roman Catholic that that tells you a lot about Where they're coming from that he just simply doesn't know but he still makes these

Incredibly huge claims along these lines and so when it comes to interpretation of the Bible What you just heard is

Sadly standard fare for what you hear from Roman Catholic apologists remember just a few weeks ago.

I was Commenting. I'm not sure if I did on the program, but I well I did later

I I noted that Matthew Bellisario had actually agreed that most of the

Roman Catholic apologists put out fluff books they're books that just There's no substance to them.

It's a little bit like the Beckwith book You know Patrick Madrid's book that he just put out with you know you quote a quote a section of scripture you write two little short paragraphs that have no exegetical value whatsoever and you call it good and That's what

Rome produces am I completely off base to go. You know if this was the one true church

This isn't what I would expect if your claims are correct. This is not what I would expect

I would expect clarity I would expect perspicuity

I would expect that the The the one true church would be able to provide

Tremendous insight into the text of scripture, but that's not what we get

Now I've got someone smiling on the other side of the glass are we are we up and up and operational Yeah, but you're gonna need to reset your screen over there

You have to log back in and you know it's when it out reset resetting is always a very good thing so we set

Resetting the colors to call back in and we should be good to go. I just tested it and it works

Resetting is something that's Microsoft invented Now it just reset. I mean

I just opened it back up, but I don't have a screen anymore In other words where the where the phones are it's gone.

I'm sorry Maybe I should log back out again, okay, so in other words we log in slow

And Be like there have been a couple times in the program I've had to reset my laptop because it just it just wouldn't

Not a slam. I do not use my Mac in the studio, dude So no

I all there are no Macs in the studio we haven't been able to go there yet, so it's up now, okay

In fact I have to use Mm -hmm well, I don't know if I should say this on the air, but I I have to use

Internet Explorer Yeah, okay, it's working and Bob is Bob is back up as by my and that's actually real all right

Okay, everybody hold on Hold on here. We go five four three two

Hello Bob yes, I can hear you and I can hear you I was a little bit worried when you said

Rich was reading the manual We don't read manuals.

Oh, he does He's willing to well after well I have to admit he sat there staring at everything for at least five minutes before he got the manual out, so My kid he's like why'd you read the directions?

I'm like son Well anymore most the times the directions are in English Can't we figure them out anyways, but anyhow we've we've got you back online

Maybe Larry can call back in too, but what can we do for you Bob? Yes, sir

Oh, please let's if it's what

I think it is then Your level of sanctification just dropped about four levels, but Okay But I was in a

Muslim room and there was three Muslims in a row that were quoting the Bart Ehrman like it was the

Gospel. Oh, yes. I mean seriously. Let's go to the Bart Ehrman What even said to be you are disagreeing with Bart Ehrman and I said no

It is actually you who is disagreeing with Bart Ehrman and I got up in a mic and you know I spoke and I told him that in the debate with you and Dr.

Ehrman that Bart Ehrman actually had to bit and to be honest with you I cannot remember what it was.

I mean, it was like three weeks ago, but Totally changed the subject and I was red dotted removed from the mic

And then the admin came on the mic and said who's Bart Ehrman. He is a red herring

Well was it was it either his statement that the New Testament is the earliest attested of any ancient book or Where he said,

I don't know anything. I know almost nothing about Islam and or about the Quran Well, there's no question that he is the favorite

Person to cite on from their perspectives, but the fact the matter is the vast majority of Muslims who cite him have never read him

They really don't know where he's coming from and and they should be embarrassed citing an individual who does not believe in essence in supernatural revelation whatsoever and Doesn't really evidently have the the guts to come out and say that in regards to Islam He should he should be very clear about that, but he won't because he's politically correct

So he wants to keep his position there but it is it is really really inconsistent for for Muslims to be using someone like this and and You know,

I recognize that that even individuals who who might have a an otherwise Fair spirit and dealing with these issues.

They they see a Bart Ehrman and he sounds and that sounds great I think I'll go ahead and grab him and and and utilize him and they don't realize that that they're really badly

Reflecting upon their own position in the process, but I once I get done here. I'm gonna be Trying to find the time to blog real quickly a couple days ago

I put up a link to a t -shirt that has that Bart Ehrman quote on it Well, there's a brand there's there's a new there's there's gonna be two versions of it now

There's that one and there's one where p52 is a little bit larger And so I'm gonna link to the so there's a there's a page you can go to you can pick which one you like best

Then go to it, but it has that quote. It's called the second century witness and it's all those manuscripts from the second century

That's that you can have on your t -shirt So, I mean, I'm sure that'll get lots of conversations started if you're a geek, but other than that Yeah Obviously my hope is that that lots of people will listen to that and they will will know how to respond to folks

Because the majority of folks using Ehrman information Have not actually read the original context themselves

They're just they're just throwing stuff out there and hopefully if people listen to the debate, they'll be able to Provide the proper context.

Well, make sure you just put the t -shirts and three extra large and I'm there Actually To you as well as dr.

Michael Brown, which I understand you to have also have interaction with and I actually called his show today

And well, I'm just saying is there any chance of you two getting together? Because I think you're both great and both

I what I heard of you and from what I've heard of him You know say about you as well that you guys both have a mutual respect for each other

I think would be great getting together to do what a radio show or a discussion or something?

Well, I know that I know that we had a caller who ended up becoming quite upset with rich later on Remember now rich is looking very confused

We had a caller that wanted to get get a debate between Michael Brown and I going member and I thought that he had called

Later become quite upset with you Because he was demanding and that I debate him and stuff

Not ringing any bells at all Well, I remember that radio show where a guy called it was funny because I just got turned on in dr

Michael Brown from a messianic Jewish friend of mine, right? I was listening to him and then I listened to the you know, the dividing line at work

You know my iPod and all of a sudden you mentioned that you had moderated a debate And then

I just called in his radio show and I actually mentioned I was listening to you as well. And he said, yeah Dr.

White moderated debate with me. He mentioned the same thing Mutual respect I'm not saying there's a debate a conversation or Just you know what?

I mean? I understand the caller the caller was Was yeah named

Joe. Yeah. Now you know now you remember what I'm talking about. Yes. Okay. Yeah and Joe Joe wanted to hear a debate between myself and Michael Brown on reform theology because dr

Brown is not reformed and I am and he felt that that would be a higher level discussion than maybe with Dave Hunt or something

Like that, which obviously it would be and then I guess What was what was the context rich of why why was there such a well not not to go?

Very far with with brother Joe. He was having a bad day. Oh, and I will leave it at that Okay, but you know when you say, you know, somebody called up and yelled at me.

I I get yelled at so much That you know, I couldn't figure out which one you were talking about Okay, well,

I'm sorry to hear that but unfortunately I think it's gonna be oh well hey, okay All right. Hey, we're gonna take our take our break.

Thanks. Thanks a lot of your call Bob. Thanks for being patient All right. God bless 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 is the phone number.

We're gonna take our break. Let's hope that that'll work and Hopefully Larry will call us back and we'll be able to talk to him and your calls as well.

It's 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 We'll be right back Following Jesus Bible works 8 is here full of innovative and essential tools users will have a hundred and ninety plus Bible translations 35 original language text and morphology databases 29 lexical grammatical references and an abundance of additional resources

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The Trinity is a basic teaching of the Christian faith.

It defines God's essence and describes how he relates to us James White's book the Forgotten Trinity is a concise understandable explanation of what the

Trinity is and why it matters It refutes cultic distortions of God as well as showing how a grasp of the significant teaching leads to renewed worship and deeper understanding of what it means to be a

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You can order the Forgotten Trinity by going to our website at a omen org Hello everyone, this is

Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program

The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every

Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha Omega Ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses

Man is sinful and God is holy That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior We are to come before the

Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well

Support Alpha and Omega Ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.

Thank you Boy after all that I really need this to And you need to turn me on to carry spots

Is that was crazy Alrighty well that sort of does emphasize the fact that If you look at the

Alpha Omega Ministries store page You will see a a new item called designated donation for facilities upgrades

Which indicates once again how bad we are at promoting ourselves That's almost a

Puritan sermon title Just saw it as like okay.

All right. Well. We'll let we'll let Barry loose on that one and come up with something but Here's here's the story we we rent facilities here and We've got a really good deal on what the amount of space we have we really really do

I think we've been very good stewards along those lines especially You know trying to have the place secure and stuff like that anyway.

We have access to a comms room. We've never used the Facility says go ahead and use it

It is the perfect studio video studio and What we want to do is get this room fixed up so that we can put the cameras we have in there the cameras we've taken to do debates and stuff like that and I need to take a lot of these presentations that I do in churches on Islam the

New Testament Roman Catholicism Mormonism whatever it might be and I need to record these things

We need to be able to have me speaking and then switch to the keynote presentation and back again, etc, etc mix this in and create

DVDs then the desire is to To help maximize my time and the impact that we can have and Utilize the technology that's available to us today

The idea is that we would send out these DVDs to a church for example

This September I'm going to be going to to Santa Fe now. It's not like I want to no longer do this, but let's face it

Economic times very difficult it costs money to fly people places And so here's the idea we send out the

DVD you play the DVD which has the presentation so you've you've got you know the the best presentation we can put out there and Then we use the net and maybe even using something like Skype because Skype has upgraded the new beta

Allows for higher resolution it allows for switching between things

I could switch to my desktop for example and show Libranics or Bible works or whatever resource

I'm using The Quran whatever the topic might be but then do live interaction

Q &A with the congregation so if you did this on a Friday night

You could have the people in you watch the DVD and then we hook up and I do live

Q &A and I can see the audience You could have people come up in front of a camera so I could see them directly you would see me and that we could do the live

Q &A that way and Then when it's over I get to go home and so do you and that means we could greatly increase

The number of contacts that we would be able to be having but we've got to have some place to do it in essence

We've got to be I have some place to record the original Videos and those of you who know about this know

How much time we're talking about here as far as my preparation and the effort on my part and But I want to do this.

I want to make that kind of information available in the midst of writing all these books and everything else yeah, we're

As I as I see it given the economic situation in the future The only way that we're going to be able to continue doing this is to try to do more work harder for less that's

That's just the reality in a depression so I'm certainly willing to do it because I see a massive need for it and So you'll see an item in the shopping cart that you can donate toward you can put $5 you can put $50

You can put whatever To help us to because right now the conference room is a 1959 era conference room and so we need to Be able to for example put appropriate air conditioning in there because this is

Phoenix, Arizona and Electronic equipment, you know how it is. I would be sweating all over myself very quickly, especially given something called lights

So we need to be able to make it We're not looking at doing something super fancy or anything like that but we need to be able to put in a drop ceiling and the carpeting is is completely gone and So it's not a big room, but there's there's things that need to be done

To be able to do this and so we just put that there to let you know about it and So you can see that in in the shopping cart

In the store on the website and it'll probably have a much more attractive name a few days from now, but it'll be it'll be right there.

It'd be easy for you to find it So I wanted to mention that to you and now that we have all these folks on hold

Let's get to him as quick as we can and the ever patient Larry. Hello, Larry I can hear you and you can you can hear me, huh?

I can I can that's a wonderful thing. I Got connected up with the dividing line about a month or so ago and You know,

I my I bought my son an iPhone and he gave me his iPod So I decided to make some good use of it

Found some podcasts to download so I've been listening to your podcast for quite about a month or so now and One of the things that's really become you know apparent to me is just how ignorant

I am of the scriptures and I I attend a PCA Church and And I was calling to find out some resources that you'd recommend as a starting point to To really become more biblically literate well

Excellent question and I I'm glad that people, you know want to do that. There's so many they they're just happy to stay at the level they're at but Clearly, especially as you have a son he's going to be facing a world that is ever more going to be willing to challenge in a very bigoted fashion the faith that you seek to pass on to him and so We all need to I think be stepping it up a good bit in light of what's taking place in our culture today

We we try to provide those those those types of things Obviously, we we have a small bookstore it we need to make it larger.

It's something I need to be putting time into as well there's just only so many hours in a day, but I've tried to provide some some foundational materials there obviously from from my perspective

You you start with with the foundation that is biblical studies and the doctrine of God and So I think it's very important to know the history of the

Bible where the Bible came from I've tried to provide a somewhat pastoral introduction that subject in my book on the

King James only controversy the second edition of which should be out within a Hopefully a couple of weeks at the most

Amazon has it listed for early March. So that's that's next week. So Hopefully that's when it will be available, but that book will introduce you to the subject of the manuscripts the

Bible why we can trust those things as As well as the Ehrman debate as well would would address those types of things as well as the

John Dominic Cross and debate To give you some some ideas there now, obviously, there's a lot more information out there, but there's different levels of Books and how understandable they are and and also they're how conservative they are as well there's there's a lot of unbelieving material written on the subject as well, but then it's

Beyond the the those particular ones. There's also The book opening the scriptures what's the

Trying to remember the author. I can see the book. It's green. I can't hear you until you turn on the microphone

You tell you about the Fairburn yeah Fairburn Berg opening the scriptures a book on exegesis that you'd find there

Also in in the bookstore that would be very useful along those lines Then when you come to the doctrine of God I mean

I've it's been so encouraging to hear from people over the years how they have been Made passionate about the doctrine of Trinity by the book the forgotten

Trinity People who have said man, I I did not you know when you can cage in worship it sort of helps to know the person you're worshiping the the

God that you're worshiping and and It really helps to change worship from being something that's focused upon us to where we're actually worshiping the

God who's revealed himself to us in Scripture and so Those two areas are foundational.

I believe to everything else obviously The God who justifies and a doctrine of justification the

Potter's freedom on the doctrines of grace Focus upon these things, but those are second -order those are you know once you have?

an assurance about the scriptures and assurance about who God is then what he's doing this world becomes the focus at that point and so That's that's why we have various CDs and presentations on on the the the nature of God Some of which

I did goodness over 20 years ago now But God hasn't changed in those 20 years thankfully so that's that's an excellent thing and obviously

The material that I we carry is primarily apologetic and orientation there are just tremendous works

On these particular subjects that aren't necessarily a part of our particular bookstore But you can look at places like monergism .com

and others that have a little bit wider Range of things that eventually I'd like to see us having that wider range as well but but works on historical theology works on a

Systematic theology, there's there is really good stuff out there and these days a lot of its available electronically not only in like libra nix and things like that, but Even stuff like the

Amazon Kindle and things like that. It's it's amazing the Technologies are available now to get hold of sound works.

It's a shame that Frequently I have to direct people to much older works however I mean as you know, it's the 500th anniversary of the birth of John Calvin, and I've said many times

If a person really wants to read tremendously sound theology that is still extremely relevant

Then the Institute's the Christian religion still can't be beaten The fact is the the the ink still smudges on much of Calvin's discussions, which is a testament to the

Abiding validity of the issues that he saw as important and so I highly recommend that as well

I'd I'd love to see someone maybe someone has come out with a sort of a Modernized version maybe for young people or something like that something like that might exist

I'm not aware of it if there is but that'd be an excellent thing to go to as well okay, well,

I appreciate the time and the Do want to let you know that?

you know, we pretty much support, you know ministries through offerings every month and and I'm gonna add the dividing line because I've really benefited from listening to the

Podcasts and I want to support the ministry and I really appreciate what you all are doing.

Well, I very much appreciate that We've been doing it since the 1980s and there aren't too many people since the 1980s

We'd be addressing some of the very wide range of topics that we do We've stayed focused and we we credit the

Lord with that because I think he keeps rich and I too focused on these things to Really get in too much trouble going anywhere else

All right. Thanks Larry. God bless. Thank you Eight seven seven seven five three three, three, four one.

Let's go to Northern, California and talk with James. Hi James Doing good

Got a question for you Been dealing with some Mormons lately and of course we were in the in our talking discussions the great apostasy came up Yes, and so obviously

I went to Matthew 16 18 and where it says and also I say to you that you're Peter and on This part, I'll build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

I've heard in my short lifetime to two explanations of that one being the

Catholic way, which would they make Peter the rock and the other would be You know the

Protestant way were the rock would be Christ himself the cheap cornerstone. Well when I was talking to him they gave me a

Interpretation I've never heard of and they said the rock would actually be revelation yeah, and I just wondered what your thoughts were on this because I will be talking to them again soon and That that was one of the things

I wanted to discuss with them and to get more into that and also their Their claim where they have, you know, obviously what they call the true church because they have the the restoration and the fullness of the gospel and their ability to have the

Twelve Apostles and the prophets and everything that they have Right. Okay. Now have you seen? The materials we have on Mormonism under the articles section on the website

I've actually purchased some of your stuff. I actually have some of your debates. I have I think

I have your debate with I Forget who the Mormon apologist probably probably

Tanner Yeah, yes, it was Tanner, right, but there is a there is a section under the articles on Mormonism, it's vintage a omen org slash

Mormonism capitalized m dot html and While these are older articles

They're older but gooder and as I was looking down here,

I I noticed that we have a article entitled the gates of hell and For some reason it's

Vintage that a omen org slash saga s a GA all capital dot html. This is a fairly lengthy exchange on the old beat the old

Mormon echo in the BBS days But it is on the subject of Hugh Nibley's comments on Matthew 16 18 and I am

Interacting with a Mormon apologist on this subject and so it really goes in depth on that exact issue of Matthew 16 18 the apostasy and things like that, so It's it's not pretty

But the very first article for example is a old man, look at this

Hugh Nibley the universal apostasy in the gates of Hades spring 1993 issue of prosopology on that was that was

Yeah, that's 15 years ago. And guess what? Nothing's really changed. So You might find that to be

Very useful because it's going to go into all those those particular things when you when you're talking about the issue of the apostasy

With with Mormons, you're on very very solid ground You can go to a number of texts

I've suggested to a number of people that instead of the Matthew 16 text, which does get you into a discussion then of their understanding of Revelation even though that's hardly contextual

And things like that my suggestion would be to go to Ephesians chapter 3 first beginning of verse 20

Which says now to him who is able to do far more abundantly than all we ask or think according to the power that works

Within us to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations forever and ever amen

And so the Apostle taught that God the Father would be glorified in The church throughout all generations now, how can that be if in point of fact the church is going to cease to exist

Now the foundation of their idea of the apostasy of course goes back to the idea of the priesthood

Well, it goes back to their idea of the priesthood the priesthood is more foundational to the restoration idea because the restoration was the restoration of the priesthood and They believe that the priesthood was given

To the Apostles and that for some reason within a couple of generations within the first century

That priesthood ceased to exist on the earth now that priesthood concept is very easily refuted in fact if you listen to Last week's dividing line last

Thursday's dividing line. I went long in my conversation with Pierre Yes, because that's the issue

In fact, we have a tract on the priesthood as well Which I'm not sure if the text is available.

We have a tract on the subject the priesthood somewhere That's and and of course in letters to a

Mormon elder I go into the priesthood issue as well because that really is a very strong area for a

Christian because the the biblical teaching about the nature of the priesthood is very clear and what is very very clear is that the

LDS understanding of priesthood is not biblical and You can go into the fact that Jesus is the only

Melchizedek priest the Aaronic priesthood has passed away They have Aaronic priesthoods running all over the place

Priest holders running all over the place. You have the Melchizedek priesthood is held only by Jesus Christ.

He's the only one qualified yeah, so those are those are excellent areas to go to and then between the the the positive

Testimony as to the nature of the church and it's a and it's the fact that's going to abide and then the the priesthood issue

You've really cut out the foundation underneath them at that at that particular point And I think that did come up in that rather lengthy article that I just mentioned to you

But if you'll if you'll look under articles on the website, you'll see a section of the Church Jesus Christ Latter -day

Saints, there's a lot of stuff in there including Yeah, and especially the hundred verse memorization system.

That is that is very old, but still very useful Okay, thank you very much

All right, and one more call. Let's talk to Nick back in back in a place where it snows constantly

How many how many feet of snow so far this this season Nick? There's a ton of snow up here, there's no doubt about that right now actually it's cleared away

But I wouldn't doubt that it'd come back You know, you know, it's you know, it's about 82 degrees here today

Nick I know I know you live in Arizona. Sometimes I wonder what that must be like Because I've lived here pretty much all my life

Wow, so I know is my middle name Anyway, yes, sir

Anyways, yeah my question I called not too long ago about a internal contradiction in Roman Catholicism and and basically what it is

Is I have an aunt who's a Roman Catholic and a friend who's a Roman Catholic and I want to address these people

I mean these people I think they listen to Catholic apologists more than they do either the Pope or or tradition and they just seem to get all their answers from people like Carl Keating and And then when

I hear debates between you and Roman Catholics or someone like Steve Gregg and Roman Catholics I hear great points by you guys and then point some good points

By the opposing side, but it just seems like some of them are horrible and no one just really calls them out on them

Unless they're in a formal debate, but I would like to get to the point like a couple weeks ago

I heard something on your website where you said I'm one of your videos that you ask a Roman Catholic who is a blessed man in Romans 4 8 and I considered that a

Really good question. I haven't used that yet, but I'm wondering if there's more I'm not trying to trick question put them in a corner but at the same time

I want to make these people be able to think through and actually see the inconsistencies and the problems with their their faith

Something that really gives substance where they can't give a cheap answer that they'll hear from John Martinoni or someone

It's annoying yeah, well, yeah, I understand that well almost almost any text that you're going to be able to Exegete well is going to cause a

Roman Catholic some some some issues for example Romans 5 1 therefore since we have been justified by faith.

We have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ I asked Mitch Pacwa in our debate on justification in January of 1991

That long ago now. I asked him, you know, Father Pacwa what peace means?

He is a Hebrew scholar. He knows the term Shalom Shalom is the background of Paul's own use of the

Greek term Irene here But Paul being a Jew would be thinking of Shalom. Shalom is not just a ceasefire.

There's no there is no peace in Israel today there is no Shalom in Israel today because everyone's walking around with a gun and the army's on constant alert and Iran is making

Nuclear bombs. There's no peace and there's no Shalom there because there's no wellness of relationship

And so I asked Mitch Pacwa I said, how can you say that you have peace Shalom with God?

When you know that you can commit a mortal sin by the time your head hits the pillow this evening and as a result that mortal sin be in your own theology an enemy of God if you can be an enemy of God before the sun sets tonight then there is not true

Shalom existing between you and God and He struggled in responding to that particular statement

It was very difficult for him to respond to Another one that I use also from the book of Romans is Romans chapter 8

So you've got Romans for the blessed man Romans 5 How can you say you have peace with God given that your your gospel cannot give you peace with God?

And then I go to the golden chain of redemption Which I was talking about at the beginning in Romans chapter 8 and I I asked the the

Roman Catholic the question I said now how is a person justified in Roman Catholicism? Well, he's justified by baptism anyone who's baptized is justified.

They're entered in the state of grace All right, then could you do you believe that everyone who is justified will be glorified?

Well, no because there's lots of people who've been baptized with babies who are not going to eventually enter into the presence of God So can you explain to me

Romans 8 30 and those who meet predestined? He also called those whom he called he also justified and those whom he justified.

He also glorified the chain is unbroken it's something that God does all along the insertion of the

Roman Catholic sacramental system completely disrupts the biblical basis of Recognizing that this is

God's work and it's God's gospel So there there are a number of places like that, but you have to know the text

Well, you can't just simply throw them out. You have to be able to give the context that you're using as well. Okay?

Okay. Thanks Nick watch watch the cold there Well, thanks for putting up with our technical difficulties today

We finally got it working got our collars in and hopefully next Tuesday. It'll work right from the start

So we'll talk to you then. Thanks a lot for listening. God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

If you'd like to contact us call us at six. Oh two nine, seven three four six zero two or write us at PO box

Three seven one zero six Phoenix, Arizona eight five zero six nine. You can also find us on the world wide web at a omen org

That's a o -m -i -n dot o -r -g where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks