Cultish - A UFO Intelligence Briefing With Colin Samul & Dr Ray Boeche

When it when it comes to the aliens There's some things I just can't tell you on air

But you'll tell us off that great, you know

The truth the truth is that when I came into office I asked right I was like God you know, is there the lab somewhere where we're keeping the alien specimens and And My you know, they did a little bit of research and the answer was no

But what what is true and I'm actually being serious here is is that there are

There's footage and records of Objects in the skies that we don't know exactly what they are.

We can't explain How they moved their trajectory

They did not have an easily explainable pattern and So, you know,

I think that we're People still take seriously trying to investigate and figure out what that is

But I have nothing to report to you today Unless like that see here's the question

Reggie might secretly be an alien All right Welcome back. Ladies and gentlemen to cultish entering the kingdom of the cults.

My name is Jeremiah Roberts and one of the co -hosts here I am here on Facebook live today

Livestreaming with Andrew the super sleuth of the show. Yeah, what is happening, man? You're super excited to be here

I'm super excited to be here thinking about monochromatic video footage of pyramids flying in the sky and tic -tac shaped objects shooting off faster than the speed of Sound yes, right.

Yes a crazy time to be it is just such a crazy time to be alive It feels like the whole world has gone cultish.

Yeah, our set feels normal This used to be the where the coldest place where coldest things happen and what we talk about But now it's the the whole world is cold cultish central yeah ever since kovat and all the craziness going on and now

What used to be kind of in the category of the fringe in the world of x -files and the we're in the real tinfoil hat world and the in the weird reddit underbelly of Conspiracy theories now from every different aspect whether it's right or left

I mean you talk about people talking about it on like Matt Walsh Tucker Carlson, you know, even a

Former president Barack Obama. We just played a clip of him one of the most recent with James Gordon his late show

He was being asked about what aliens are. In fact, just recent. I believe on on Good Morning, America Former president

Bill Clinton was being asked about it And so you have everyone from all different sides left or right and what

I'm excited about is that sense cult has started We have been kind of beating the drum in regards to the fact that this is an important conversation

To have and we can't ignore it, especially if you want to be able to give a definitive Level -headed

Apologetic that makes sense to the world that's going to be asking questions. And now here it is all over the news

So rather than to try and you know, toot her own horn or gloat or say I told you so What we want to do is just kind of have a fun

Conversation again, if you are joining us here in Facebook live Definitely. We look forward to interacting with you all and also we will be taking your questions

So just hold off towards the end and when we do the Q &A We'll try and interact with as many questions as you can

So what we have going on today, we are streaming live We have two of our former guests who have been very involved.

They work with us behind the scenes Just talk in regards to any of our other episodes on UFOs. So with us we have former guest

Colin Simul And we also have dr. Ray Bosch It's great for you all to join us today

Glad to be here Good to be here. Awesome. Excellent. And so just for anyone who's on this live stream for the full time

Perhaps they haven't listened to our previous episodes Colin can you just tell them just really briefly about who you are?

What got you into UFOs and why do you think this conversation is important? Sure So I am a

Presbyterian minister ordained in the RPC and a Currently pastor and church planner of Great Basin Reform Presbyterian Church in Reno, Nevada It's Nevada and not

Nevada Clear and I've I've been following this subject

Since before I was a Christian as I said in our previous podcast sort of My mentality growing up was that if there was anything

Weird or out of the ordinary that was real. It was the UFO subject Hmm I was raised in the 90s with sightings and the

X -Files and so that all that stuff was in my head and Towards the end of high school got into the

New Age and Those two worlds intersect that I quickly discovered.

Although I didn't know that Watching, you know all of these shows on TV growing up.

It seemed like a very nuts -and -bolts thing and Left the

New Age after about two years and then a year after that God Delivered me from that and I was brought to the gospel

Spent two years as a Baptist and then moved on to the right view of Presbyterianism.

Yeah It's you know, I've got to have that jab there. Yeah and I'm just messing.

Love you guys Then went to seminary that I was about a five six year process and then soon after I left seminary and Was interning and all of that.

That's when all of this Tom DeLong stuff started and I always kind of kept an eye on people like Steven Greer and all of that and Once I saw what was happening with Tom.

I said something's actually happening here that that might actually be this disclosure that everybody's been longing for since it was all covered up in the 50s and 60s and Lo and behold here we are it's happening

So I started following it I reached out to you guys a couple years ago Introduced the subject and sort of what

I had seen and It has progressed and as you said, you know, we don't want to gloat

We don't want to say told you so but told you so I think we are still at the beginning of this so This just brings up worldview questions

I mean think about how much kovat messed with the church How do you think something like this is going to mess with people's views the average person in the pew?

I don't know what's real anymore. I thought also still laugh at that. How does this fit in with the

Bible? And then there's larger issues that we'll get into associated with the subject that should be a pastoral concern so That becoming mainstream is something we need to pay attention to But I think it could also be a healthy thing for the church because we have acquiesced to an anti -supernaturalistic view

Even though we say on paper we believe in the supernatural so we're gonna be forced to reckon with things that our forefathers in the

Ancient church the medieval church were fine. Not that they were okay with the powers of darkness

But they recognize this as reality and we're gonna have to recognize. This is reality

So that's my introduction and an overview of my involvement with this subject.

Mm -hmm Yes, definitely and I could not agree with you more Colin. In fact, you're talking about how kovat just sort of mess with people

I was just thinking about visually two images images that come to mind from March 2020 was just seeing both the

Las Vegas Strip where you are from Nevada Completely empty and vacant and then also seen

Times Square Completely empty at the same time and just my mindset was just what is

Like what is going on? What is happening? And so absolutely in many ways It's going to be the same thing, especially as this progresses.

We're definitely gonna delve into that. So Ray I again. I appreciate you Coming on and it's a blast to have you on again and be able to chat with you

Just tell everyone just a briefly just about who you are And what is your interest in the whole

UFO discussion? What has been your involvement over the last and how long have you been involved in it?

Longer than you guys have been alive, I think I'm I'm getting along in the tooth here.

I Became interested in this when I was 10 years old. That was in 1965 the whole subject of UFOs flying saucers became intrigued with it when my family had a sighting on our back porch and Began to follow it very avidly and began to do research.

I was involved very heavily for The next eight years and then

Much like Colin. I was I branched out because you find you get involved in one aspect of this and it's interesting

Theologically and philosophically how it leads you into this this web of of occultism and I became heavily involved in in that and Received Christ as my

Savior one in my April of my senior year in high school Backed away from it for quite a while.

I got interested again as a working adult

There was a an interesting case. We were living in Omaha. I was teaching for the public schools a

Pet goat had been mutilated in broad daylight in an urban neighborhood in Omaha And there was a piece in the paper about it and I started tracking that down that sort of brought all the experiences

I've had with cattle mutilations and those sorts of things back and I began to delve into it from a different a different perspective.

I came to realize in the 80s particularly that This web of occultic involvement entraps everyone who gets involved

Almost everyone who gets involved It's easy to fall into that and I realized no one is giving a

Christian response to this no one is Speaking to this from a

Christian worldview And it raises I mean these things raise fundamental questions.

You go back to my favorite way to categorize it Origins Meaning morality destiny.

Mm -hmm. Where do we come from? Why are we here? How should we live? Where are we going? and so I Began work on a master's degree in apologetics and systematic theology and because I knew that I wanted to approach

My speaking engagements at conferences and those sorts of things from a Christian viewpoint

I had the credibility of a researcher to back it up.

So I was able to be heard by the people in the in the

Just a paranormal community in general They were they knew that I they knew

I knew what I was talking about. And so they were willing to listen so that opened a

Lot of doors to tell people about Christ and how The world really works from a

Christological viewpoint 1994

I was I was ordained then as a Baptist pastor then in 1994. I was asked by the

Reformed Episcopal Church to consider planning a church here in Lincoln and Was ordained then as a as a priest in the

Reformed Episcopal Church and had a church for 10 years had some health issues Heart attack and a bout of cancer and had to retire give that up I would all this time.

I was working as a graphic designer of the book designer. Mm -hmm and Still speaking and again branching out into the apologetic outreach in this in 2011

I retired from the University of Nebraska Press where I'd been for almost 20 years and went into ministry full -time

Transferred my credentials to the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod and Served as one of the pastors at the second -largest

LCMS congregation in the country here in Lincoln, and I was a pastor for adult education

So that gave me a lot of a lot of great opportunities to wake the church up from within as to the reality of these things and how we should how we should look at them and The kind of responses we should be able to make as Christians That's pretty much it

I Finally retired again I'm I'm dealing with a second round of second round of cancer different kind of cancer now, but I retired about a year ago

I Quit working for pay let's put And so now

I'm able to spend all of my time working on research writing papers And being able free to be able to do things like this

To help encourage, you know, we're told as as a pastor We're told our job is to equip the

Saints for ministry and that's what I think programs like cultish do where we're here

To equip the Saints to go out and minister to those within their sphere of influence

That's good. I have I have a question for for you Ray and Colin You can probably piggyback off it but um in terms of thinking about UFOs or UAPs We have a modern paradigm through which we

You know Interpret the events that are going on around us and there's like specifically there's a secular paradigm that I would

Argue that is infiltrated, you know the mainstream church, right? So when these things start happening people get questions their faith is challenged because they're not actually looking through UFOs UAPs through a true

Christian perspective, but they have a modern secular paradigm in terms of a materialistic extraterrestrial

Beings in origin, but um can can you can you guys dig into the origins of this modern paradigm?

Where did it come come about from on typically how people view or have viewed this?

UAP UFO phenomenon and how is that paradigm being challenged now by the information that's coming out?

Yeah, because there's an underlying history that spans 50 years up until now So the question is in the same way we did the road to Jonestown here.

We are in 2021 Well, there's a whole history going back in in the 1950s and even earlier you think about the documentary the phenomenon

Where it talks about the whole history. I know Colin or you but you have both watched that But yeah me before we kind of get into modern events

Maybe we can kind of turn back again turn back the clock a little bit Let's maybe talk about some significant events that got us to where we are today.

Any thoughts on that? Well, I think the I guess I would I would toss this in there as a good place to start the problem that we

Experienced today with this idea of materialism naturalism anti -super naturalism is

Really goes back to the Enlightenment that's that's the origins of it and One of the one of the people was a huge influence on me was a man

Writer named Charles Ford and Charles Ford had a quotation. He said science is a turtle

That says its own shell encloses all things Science is a turtle that says its own shell encloses all things

That's the materialist viewpoint right there there is nothing outside of our little bubble of reality that we recognize as reality and so When something anomalous comes along The materialist has no place to put it.

The only possible explanation they can go to is another materialist explanation

So there are strange lights in the sky. There are strange entities that are seen. Well, they can't be supernatural

So therefore they must be Extraterrestrial they must be a life -form that evolved on a different solar system in a different galaxy and has made its way to us

So they oversimplify it by cutting the entire spiritual aspect of existence

Out they just exclude that whole cloth. And so You're really hampered by that you

You've you've limited your toolbox To one crescent wrench. That's all you've got left and that's materialism

And so if you need to operate on in a different way, you're not equipped to do that Hmm, that's really good.

What thoughts do you have on that Colin? Yeah, I think What Ray is referring to is also what

Francis Schaeffer called the line of despair and He tied that line of despair to various influences

He rooted it in Aquinas people debate whether or not he accurately understood Aquinas but definitely with Descartes and then with Immanuel Kant with the noumenal phenomenal distinction of our

Ontology what is real and our epistemology? How do we know what we know and Kant said that the things that were in the noumena are matters of faith or intuition?

whereas that which is phenomenal is related to experience and so he said that God and And Supernatural entities are in the noumenal realm

They are simply matters of faith. In other words creedal statements that some people hold on to And as some modern apologists have articulated it basically the

Social bribe is if you want to believe in those fairy tales feel free But it belongs not in reality as we experience it, but the realm of faith

Now, of course we cannot comprehend God so so God in that sense cannot be directly part of our experience

We know him only by analogy and by his revelation and his revelation is analogical as Van Til and others said

But what we've done is we've grouped Entities like angels and demons into that Distinction and place them in the realm of faith.

We believe that they're there because that's what we're supposed to believe But in our day -to -day life, we agree with Rudolph Boltman that those who use light bulbs and electricity cannot take angels and demons seriously

And so that's our compromise as the church I think Ray talked about the overall view of scientism, which is really a working out of that distinction from Kant to its logical conclusion

But the church is acquiesced to that because our our our Compromise is okay. We'll believe in these things as dogma

But the most will believe about angels and demons as maybe I can be tempted to sin but then when you have a phenomenon that interacts with our military shuts down nuclear missiles as I listened an interview earlier from the

Washington Post with Lou Elizondo and they're just openly talking about this now That really threatens everything that we've built our modern world around Because it says that man's not the measure of all things

There's other things out there as Ray said The first thing we want to do is preserve our materialism and accounting for it

So that's what the world does and then the church wonders. Well Angels and demons are just involved with temptation

They don't appear physically. They don't do things in history Because again, they're part of the numena not the phenomena and so we don't know where to put it

So I think it not only challenges the modern secular worldview, but it exposes how much we have acquiesced to it in our thinking because when we hear about these things we don't know where to put it whereas What we can get into this later our forefathers in the faith

Would have heard about these types of encounters and known exactly where to put it So so that that question that That you asked

Andrew I think is important and that's the foundation, but I think you asked Jeremiah How do we get where we're at right now with I'm guessing disclosure was your question?

Yeah, I mean just mean we this could be a whole 10 part podcast I mean, I mean there's aspects and you think about the whole history of the origination of you know

Some of the space programs and you think about you know, people involved like Jack Parsons we talked about him briefly in our episode navigating

UFOs in the world the occult with rate with Ray and you know, there's that there's that unique history and you know

There's things like project blue book and that whole history behind that and you have also, you know different divisions

That try to weaponize the paranormal so you kind of have you know along with there's sort of this weird timeline of both this interest and different aspects of the paranormal in the occult and Also with evolving technology and space exploration programs the whole underlying history

But maybe just kind of give us some examples, especially with the most recent disclosures You know ones that Jeremy Corbell recently dropped that we'll be discussing

Like what would be some examples in that whole history that you think are kind of unique? Points of reference given where we are right now with a current conversation surrounding disclosures, well,

I think if you go back to 1947 Nathan Twining Produced the document in which he says very bluntly.

He was an Air Force general that these things are real and not fictitious or Fantasies, these are real things that are being seen

Well, that's exactly where we're at now It's been 75 years

Now Now once again, the government is reiterating.

Hey, these are real. We don't know for sure what they are In between there you have a number of significant significant events and I would say maybe the most the most significant involve the shutting down of nuclear missiles in Launch silos that happened in the 60s and 70s

Happened at a number of SAC bases across the country Robert Hastings wrote an excellent book called

UFOs and nukes where he goes into great detail and Provides all of the documentation he obtained through the

Freedom of Information Act on These events that took place at nuclear missile installations so you have something that's

Threatening aircraft in 1952 To Two nights in a row the

White House was buzzed By unidentified flying objects fighters were scrambled because that was restricted airspace

No one's supposed to be there as soon as the fighters got there and got close they took off Instantaneously disappeared

Then you've got again the the incursions into Nuclear missile installations nuclear weapons storage areas

Numbers of those and then now we're seeing a nuclear battle force of the

Navy Followed and swarmed by a

Herd of these things in the sky that they can't identify they can see them on radar They can they can track them at phenomenal speeds.

They can't explain them. There's no propulsion. No, no control services on them and yet They're real and so we're to the point now where The government really needs to if they can

Fish or cut bait because you've said these things are real. You don't know what they are. Tell us what you do know about them

Hmm Yeah, I'll maybe add in some details there to just the big picture and then how

I think we got to this point where it has been nightly every major news network is

Interviewing somebody anytime they get an official on whether it's Leon Panetta John Ratcliffe the other day

Trump's DNI talked about it and he by the way said no, this is not

Russia and China They didn't leapfrog us this far they couldn't have

So, how do we get to this point Well as one researcher grant Cameron says and and he's very new age.

So I mean for information I think he knows his stuff, but obviously I disagree with a lot of his conclusions

That the government for 70 years Hasn't disclosed but it also hasn't covered up.

It's done something else and there there does appear to be not only all these series of events, but you can track a history of People on the inside leaking things publicly.

Mm -hmm Through the 80s and 90s Ray was contacted by men from the

DIA In the 90s Talk show hosts like Linda Moulton Howe and others have always claimed to have people giving them information.

There's been figures like rich Richard Doty who's a very interesting character who openly worked for Air Force Office of Special Investigations and He shows up at US UFO conferences and has been a sort of a contact point, but people have trouble trusting him

As he has been involved with this information So we've seen this over the years where they've kept the conversation going as a subculture pop culture thing

Even the guy who Produced Dark Skies. I think his name is Bruce Zybel Maybe I'm thinking of a different guy.

He has said NBC's Dark Skies. He's big into disclosure And I'm said when they were producing that I think in the 90s

I believe uniformed men from the Office of Naval Intelligence were meeting with him and passing stories along to him

To put in the series Wow So this this is so first off.

Is this a psyop to distract from how bad Biden is a president? They must have time travel to and Biden's presidency must end really badly

If this has been going on this long You just for that but what what has really happened since 2015 with Tom DeLonge the the guy

James Fox with the phenomenon documentary As I've heard it described in his grant camera describes if there's different teams

Who've kind of in a sense? Recruited is probably not the best word, but they have access to information from people on the inside like Jeremy Corbell and So there's stovepipes in the government that I don't know the motives we can speculate on it

They want this information coming out and so they've got two things to contend against that is the public perception and then other elements of the government that don't want it out and Possibly our foreign adversaries so there's been a strategy here and how they have used men like Tom DeLonge and others as sort of like PR people to Get conversations going credibly in the media, right that in in 2017 with the videos being released

So now we can talk about this because this respected publication and they just introduced it all it is

We don't know what it is. And then the first thing to make it more acceptable. It could be Russia and China So for about three years, we've hung out in that space

Where every three to six months there's been a leak maybe some media stories Mainstream ones, but it dies out

What happened in March is or I mean I'm saying I'm sorry in May is that 60 minutes?

did a very well put together segment on all of this and In it

They had confirmation from Harry Reid and others that these things go 13 ,000 miles an hour

Stop make a right angle turn. That's not Hypersonic weapons were trying to develop the

SR 71 that goes 3 ,000 miles an hour Takes half of the state of Ohio to make a right hand turn

So there was credible people brought out on 60 minutes and the information that was presented

Was more than just weird things that we don't know what it is. They gave details as As did

Marco Rubio and others who were on that and that almost reignited the conversation from the original buzz from the 2017 article and 60 minutes is like the

New York Times of Media journals It's highly respected.

And so since then it's been daily weekly where Tucker Carlson Andrew Cuomo Anderson Cooper Even daytime shows the today show morning shows are talking about this and then every week

There's another official coming out and dropping bombs like John Ratcliffe on Sunday These we determine these things aren't

Russia or China. I don't know what the report will say but That's what we've determined The head of NASA this week

Said he immediately when he came in instructed NASA to study this, right?

So so what's happening? Is there such a buzz that those people on the inside have leaked it to the outside and then it's percolated up and so now any other stovepipe in the government that decides to continue to cover up an

Obscufate is gonna have a credibility issue because of how many credible people are now saying otherwise

If they I and put out information That that sort of dodges this and so I would say we're at the point where the cat is out of the bag.

Yeah, and Pandora's box is open One last thing I will mention that I think is very significant is

Sam Harris the atheist debunker Sam Harris On a podcast with Ricky.

Is it Jarvis the guy who called out Hollywood? Yeah on his podcast

He said look I've been contacted by people from the CIA former heads of the

CIA people in the defense establishment and other bona fides And I'm gonna be on zoom calls because they want my advice on how to message this to the public without causing panic

And he said we're gonna have to apologize to all these people. We've made fun of for years about alien abductions

So Sam Harris the materialist atheist skeptic is now convinced and he's been tapped as a consultant by people on the inside to help message this to the public in a way that doesn't cause them to freak out and I heard years ago that part of this was going to be

Influencers in our culture getting that top on the shoulder. We need your help There Sam just said that that's what happened to him so this is this is going down You know,

I don't know what the timeline is, but but we're here and it's it's it's really accelerating Yeah And that fact that's fascinating because they think about calling we were first talking and about Tom DeLonge's whole story about how he reached out to The government different government agencies and was talking about.

Hey, well, maybe I can actually I want to actually help you help Communicate to the culture at large.

I know what's going on. I know what's on the inside I want to figure out a way to help you disclose this which you're having trouble with Because people as a whole like we don't trust the government

I mean everyone always jokes about You know the full 15 days to flatten the curve and just in some ways that the government has mismanaged kovat

So there is there is a general distrust and I think but it is interesting that now me maybe

Tom DeLonge has been a catalyst where now all of a sudden the government wants to reach out and even have

Influencers like Sam Harris sort of reached out to the public public and maybe they're even prejudiced in the fact of picking him

Because of the fact that he's a naturalist. So maybe he can help explain it in a level -headed way

But I think he's still gonna fall short One thing I can let you jump in as well, too. I was gonna comment, you know, just in regards to Prejudice that people may have right now.

Why are they bringing this out under a new administration? This is something that the Biden administration is now

Conspiring to do a sort of wag the dog sort of situation is that I think one of the things I really appreciated

Which I think if anyone listens into is very helpful is Edward Snowden When I think of one of his last interviews on the

Joe Rogan experience He talked about the difference between that what the deep state really is and he just simplified it the deep state really in many ways

It's just long -term career politicians who are in Washington for 40 to 50 years for example, and you will what will happen is that you'll have a new administration that will come in They've just won an election

You know they have the first 100 days as soon as they get novice they want to go and get reelected and Usually what happens at the deepest people who are these officials who just are long -term career politicians will say well

We want you here's what's going on. We want you to do this this and this will scratch your back So we can work on getting you reelected and so there's always that going back and forth so my point and be in saying that is that This whole aspect of disclosure is not something that's really rooted in the most recent administration

This is something that goes back to the 1950s and it's almost you know on a political sense people always view a current

Conversation regarding politics whether it's the border crisis or something to do with economics

Like this is they all focus on the current president when in reality This is a byproduct of decisions that have taken place for with multiple administrations for for decades

So I think people need to understand, you know, don't think of this just to the lens of pro

Trump Don't put this to the lens of just pro Biden but just look we need to zoom out and just kind of look at the big picture as far as the entirety of Where the

US government has been what they're doing now, then ultimately how we should look at this

Given that given a Christian worldview and what thoughts you have on that? Yeah, I was just gonna say in terms of You know disclosures coming specifically from the government.

We know there is no such thing as neutrality So there's always a worldview that's going to have Some form of implication on the facts that are being presented

So our duty as Christians when we're hearing anything even coming from the government, we should have a healthy distrust, right?

We should be able to separate the footage that we're looking at from the worldview being implicated Behind the footage and we need to do that through a

Christian worldview. That's that's just one thing I was thinking But I do have a question For you guys and maybe the listeners were thinking this too, but in terms of hearing the word nuclear right the that these

Whatever these things are attracted to nuclear energy, right? my brain all of a sudden started thinking of like Gene Roddenberry in Star Trek in the prime directive like these

These civilizations are starting to get this nuclear Technology, so it's time to come usher them into this new

Galactic Federation. I don't believe that whatsoever but I'm in terms of nuclear

Why is there this connection between this this other this paranormal?

situation and and nuclear energy in a sense I I can only speculate on that but I'll Give you what?

What my feeble mind is has come up with to explain that I think any time

We detonate a nuclear weapon We're we're having an effect on the actual fabric of space -time

Because of this tremendous release of energy and I think if and again, this is a big if if these entities are

Physical in the same way that we are They might be interested in Protecting the fabric of space -time as a whole the whole space -time continuum and saying

No, you guys shouldn't mess around with this because you don't understand the implications you do this But you've also done this this this and this and you're not you're completely unaware of it

That's the materialist explanation I I have a different theological take on that.

Hmm, but I Think that Well, let me

Let me expose the elephant in the room here. If these things are spiritual entities if they're demonic

What better way to alter the way humans perceive them

By having them appear to focus on something that would imply that these are physical beings from somewhere else that this explanation of Ripping a hole in the space -time continuum is the greatest harm that could ever be done

And so therefore these must be physical beings from another planet. Hmm if they're spiritual beings many of whom wishes

You know What better way to disguise it? Hmm Yeah, I mean, that's good.

No, they don't know that definitely makes sense And so one thing is that's always interesting too is just even some of the most recent

Disclosures that have really brought into the forefront of these conversations. And so one of the most recent ones

I mean we have the tic -tac encounter That would that took place with Charlie Underwood who's a

Navy pilot I think that was back and was that back in 2004? Was that was that's right.

Okay, so there was that one but then there was the most recent one of what appeared to be over the ocean that Jeremy Corbell released and That appeared to be an oval shaped flying object.

That was I believe it was a infrared Camera that was on a fighter pilot and then you saw it hover around and then it lowered into the ocean

That was one of the most recent Sightings so Colin could you maybe just talk about that real quickly?

And also this is all let's bring up to just one of the objections that people have and rightfully So I think we we should look at this stuff with skepticism.

We should never take anything at face value And just from a Christian perspective. I mean the Book of Proverbs says it's the glory of Kings to Investigate and search out a matter so we need to think critically

God gave us her mind We need to look at this and deal with it holistically But um, let's also just talk about the objection that people would have

Because so many of these sightings the camera is blurry people would think Since we're in 4k

Since we have 4k cameras or even like Neil deGrasse Tyson who was recently on Joe Rogan He was saying well everyone walks around with one of these

You know, they should be all if these are always in the sky We should be able to just people should be filming this all the time and again, he's looking at through a view of naturalism, but yeah, so talk a little bit about that sighting and Also, maybe bring up any objections that people would have in regards to blurry

UFO footage And how do we give a level -headed answer towards that? right so I'll actually reverse the order of those questions.

I'll first address the camera issue So with the camera issue,

I would say It's actually not as easy as you think to take a very good photo

If you've been married or family members been married, what do you do? Do you just allow your uncle to take all the pictures?

No, you hire a professional photographer Who's got the right equipment and knows with lighting and angles how to take good pictures?

You need both the equipment and the expertise to get really clear photos and by definition

Because of what UAPs are rarely is it ever gonna happen with someone who's set up to take a good picture of it

When it comes to our smartphones yeah, we all have cameras, but I use this anecdote on another podcast when

Trump flew to Reno on Air Force One. I was like, wow, look at Air Force One. I was on a roof

Doing some window cleaning and so I took a picture on my phone and then I looked at it and it's fuzzy

You can kind of see the little blue streak that it's Air Force One didn't look at all like it did when I when

I Took took the picture Those cameras aren't as good as they appear to be

So something is you know thousands of feet out a mile out and then especially if it's moving at high speeds

If you even think and manage to take a photo before it's gone It's not gonna be that great when it comes to the what's been released by the government we have to understand that that's forward -looking infrared and So that that that is a camera that tracks heat signatures

It's meant for targeting because so many of our weapons track something with propulsion

That's what's strange about these objects as they don't have any heat though. They're moving very quick Or a trail of heat behind them

And so those those cameras are not meant to take clear pictures. They're meant to target objects and They're relatively conventional.

So Or at least well known so the government isn't concerned about releasing them because it won't show our capabilities to our adversaries

Chris Mellon who's highly credible. He's the former deputy assistant secretary of defense for intelligence

He's been one of these big guys in the media pushing this him and Lou have said there are clearer photos

Most likely they will be released at some point along with more impressive videos

He said everything that's been released is down here and how dramatic it is and that goes along with this whole idea of slowly

Acclimatizing the public and not freaking them out Allowing them to have those objections so they can process it

So That's the camera issue when it comes to those actual events. So 2004 was more than just the tic -tac that commander

Fravor chased Right, they found it above the ocean with frothing water underneath it

And then he went to circle down and then it looked up and then started mirroring him And then once he got up close to it boom it shot off and Then they had their next cat point

Which is those are the coordinates. I Think the computer designates the coordinates and it's all encrypted

But a split second before they receive their cat points the radar operator said you'd never believe it

But that thing is waiting for you at your next cat point And then they got there and it was gone.

And then later other Jets were sent up and they filmed that That Famous film we've all seen of the tic -tac there and then it shoots off So so that was one event series and some have happened on the east coast the one with the

Navy they came up out of the ocean and We're following them for a longer amount of time than any known drone can stay airborne go back into the water

They found no wreckage That video has just been released of it of it going down into the water by Jeremy Corbell and it might be worth mentioning the

Testimony that's come out from some sailors on submarines who've mentioned tracking these things at thousands of miles an hour underwater

That's a that's that's phenomenal in and of itself How can something travel that quickly underwater but again

It's evidently the same principle that allows them to fly at hypersonic speeds and not disturb the air

And create a shock wave so that you get a sonic boom there. There's there's something

There there's something weird about that There is and I think what people run into when we say this stuff is we anthropomorphize these things

First we we didn't see it directly so We picture all the things we've seen in science fiction and so we think of a very nuts and bolts material object and They encountered something real it did it did interact with the radar.

They tracked it on radar Tracked it on sonar underwater as rages said But we make assumptions about what that means and again our modern world view is that man's the measure of all things

Miraculous feats are done by men like us Creating technology. So if there's something doing miraculous feats in the sky that Exhibits intelligence our first assumption according to our presuppositions is this is technology

And that's the language that we were going to describe it in even if someone doesn't think it's technology

Like Lou Elizondo will say technology, but in some interviews, he says we don't know that it's technology like we think

Even on the interview at the Washington Post today. He alluded to the idea of interdimensional which was huge I don't think

I've ever heard him say that really yep, and One thing he said on a podcast is okay

So we hear about it showing up at the cat point before they even knew what the cat point was So what kind of technology is this that can?

You know read their minds or Hack into the system and see where they're at Well, Lou has said one thing that they speculated in a tip and studying.

This is maybe these things Have a different relationship to time and space as we do

And so our moment is very quick we experience time Everything I just said is echoing in your mind as you're comprehending it.

That's the past Our experience of the present is very short So he compares it to like a cherry on a cigarette burning

And he said what if these things are more like a cherry on a cigar? That their experience of time is larger than ours.

And what we see is it going in and out? In the sense that it intersected with our timeline at different points

And that's interesting because some church fathers do talk about what's called angelic time the idea that that The the angels have a freer relationship to time and space as we do

So I Think people hear these military encounters and they just assume it has to be technological but but From all the people who've researched this from valet to Tom DeLong to his team that he originally set up Lou and Others and some of the things that they will say more off the record.

That's not necessarily so and even these stovepipes in the government has asked these questions and Really said, okay.

Well, what if it's an artifact of it coming in from another dimension or having a different relationship?

of time and space than us And so that's all very interesting So that that intersects with those events and how do you think about it?

Yeah And I think there's a spectrum some of this might be technological from another country

I think most of it isn't but we can flesh that out further, but Just with those events and the camera issue.

Yeah, that's that's how I would sum up that and Things we need to be looking at from a

Christian perspective in relation to it No, definitely in fact when you're mentioning about the different interdimensional timelines immediately to start think this sounds like an outline of a new

Christopher Nolan movie You know, it's like interstellar interstellar part two or something like that But no it but in seriousness

I mean it does make sense even where you're talking about how Some of these objects are flying through water and they're moving a trajectory you think would

Would create a sonic boom if it was as our 71 Blackbird or another or an f -16 fighter pilot in a fighter plane and or something of that nature and memory is being young a young boy and going to Air Force shows and watching and Seen experiencing that how loud it is.

I mean, I mean the experience of sonic boom is incredible But the science behind that and you talk about you know

Presuppositions you're presupposing this object is something that's completely physical and tangible

Operating in a real in the real world according to real Scientific laws that is binding by but then again, the question is that this is something that is

Different that is interdimensional and interdimensional It operates outside of what we can ultimately we can't fully understand or comprehend through a strip through a strictly

Naturalistic scientific mindset. I definitely agree with that for sure energy. You have any thoughts were on that.

No Yeah, that's one of the reasons why I was asking about the paradigm that's being challenged with the modern secular worldview as being materialists and many

Christians being functional materialists as well and not We're not we're not supposed to be dualists in a sense as as Christians.

We we believe in the supernatural We also believe in the material right? We are spirit and body

For example, like with biblical precedent we can speak to you know, the stoning of Stephen when

Stephen was being Stoned he looked up and he saw Jesus there standing right like he was there.

There's just a veil between it It's not this distinction of this dualist reality in a sense

It's just something that we don't fully and are fully capable to be aware of in in this present state that we occupy

So what I find extremely interesting, especially when we hear about governmental Disclosures coming out the first thing that that goes in my mind is that the government's telling us and they're open -handed right now because of all

This information coming out. They're not saying it specifically, but they're trying to their truck What they're saying is we don't know what this is.

We can't make sense of it, right? So I would say From all the filter out all of the noise that you're hearing when you hear about these disclosures when they're coming from governmental organizations or news organizations regardless of what they

Assume the the truth is is they really cannot explain it, especially if we get better images of These things just call them things.

For example, if there's nothing that can explain how These things can move from A to B which is like in Extreme speeds that is impossible to physics breakneck speeds where your body would literally like just all of your bones in your body would break

If they have no logical explanation through their their their filter that they're viewing these things through So, I think

I think that's extremely important but you did I heard a name there and I believe before we started this live

That um, it was it Valet was the name guys, right? I'm calling Yeah, do you wanna

Ray maybe explain who Jacques Valet is and then some of his?

Corpus and his conclusions Sure It's tough to do justice to it we'd here's another 10 part podcast for Valet's ideas

He's a French scientist. He's an astronomer and a computer scientist he worked for Several years at Northwestern University in the astronomy department there and at UT Austin He works in Silicon Valley now

Is a venture capitalist more than anything But has been

Involved in seminal work in UFO research since the late 60s his first book was anatomy of a phenomenon about UFOs and He began to abandon early fairly early on the idea that these things are physical interplanetary craft

At one point he has he's made the statement that If UFOs turn out to be nothing more than extraterrestrial craft,

I will be sorely disappointed He understands that there's a lot more to this his

First venture into this area is called passport to Magonia Magonia is the land indwelt by fairies a supernatural realm that exists alongside of us and in that he began to explore the idea of These things coming from other dimensions and jumping into our space -time from their own

He is By his own admission his Biggest goal is to establish patterns in data

He likes to take an overview and see what he can develop from all of the reports that are out there he

Was tasked while he was at Northwestern University to put the entire project bluebook files into a database

And remember this is when you were still everything was still Fortran and COBOL And punch cards there was no there were no there were no laptops

There's nothing like that. So he he managed to do that So he looks for patterns in data and then from that tries to extrapolate meaning from that He is also extremely interested in the possibility of the physical nature of these things because There are a number of instances in which pieces of alleged craft have been found

One instance in which in during 1952 The incursions over the

White House. It's alleged that a chunk was shot off of one of these craft by An American jet and that that piece was recovered.

And so he's interested in doing Atomic level Examination of these substances see if there are anything strange in terms of the isotopic race ratios the

Compositions that sort of thing so far. He hasn't found anything Other than there are some things that seem to be

Only able to be constructed at a molecular level Far far more finely tuned than anything we can do with melting alloys together for instance

But that's not conclusive the maybe more intriguing thing is

He said what if these things are not composed of any sort of exotic substance

What if it's standard earthly? material that raises a whole other set of questions because then

If these things are composed of material that is just like we could possibly produce here

How are they doing things that it's impossible for things within our physical universe to do?

Mmm, you open a whole whole different conundrum so Jacques Vallée is the

Man, he's the dean of the intellectual Intellectual school of thought on UFOs.

Mm -hmm. Yeah, and he's put an extensive amount of work and I had to jump out just to take care of something

I'm back on here if it wasn't mentioned Just jumping back in here is that you're talking about the aspect of the of the physical tangible component

I think there's two interesting ends of the spectrum, you know calling as you mentioned about how Now how the

Christian Church has gotten? almost in a sense ignore almost completely reverse

Gnostic and ignoring the spiritual components of the UFO discussion and then but then there's there's other as it will dress us later on who

Strictly only deal the spiritual aspect Well UFOs are just demons demons demons or how somehow the

Nephilim it's just a one -size -fits -all So one -size -fits -all for anything that's remotely supernatural that has to be

Nephilim So but in regards to like making sense of it I think it's something we need to be able to level -headedly make sense of both sides and so in regards to the physical component the thing that came to mind was the whole story that we

Jumped into ourselves and that Jeremy Corbell explored in his documentary Bob was our

UFOs in area 51 because I believe that Bob was our at least 100 % believes what he believes

No doubt that in s4. He worked on spacecraft so And if indeed if that is the case where he saw something that was remotely there and I believe he also he was working on a potential

Something that was outside the periodic table of the elements It was I can't remember the name of the element, but they talked about it in the documentary like 115

Pentium I have not I've never actually worked with that sort of element myself I'm interested what that would look like or what that could actually make

That would be fun to kind of assemble some things together like play -doh or something like that I don't know but um, but yeah, there is an aspect where there is something that's tangibly physical and tangibly spiritual

Let me ask you this too. And this is something that people have brought up together like when it comes to this whole

Conversation we're giving examples of things going on in the people like Sam Harris Prep former presidents talk presidents talking celebrities talking it being all over the news

Like I said both left -leaning and right -leaning Then again, we played that clip from Barack Obama Just because we know a lot at the very beginning of it because we know a lot of lip you who listen in are probably more conservative

Left -wing leaning so immediately there's that skepticism going on But you also have to understand too that if someone is a skeptic what they hear tuckle

Carlson They're gonna have their skepticism too because he's on the right side, right, right.

So how do we make sense though of navigating between the two

Navigating the physical aspect and the spiritual aspect Relates to something

I wanted to follow up with what Ray said, I think Ray gave an excellent overview of what valet is saying and Valet always gets mentioned because everybody respects him no matter what end of the spectrum they come from in in this field

That's why I interjected and said he's the man because I mean, that's just how he is viewed Valet says these things are coming from another dimension and yet their physical

Characteristics appear to be things they formed from matter here and Yet displayed these odd characteristics through them a big question in the history of the church

Especially the medieval church was how can a spirit? manifest physically

So, how did the angels? Eat a meal with Abraham and when they put it in their mouth, it didn't flop out onto the ground.

Mm -hmm But then think of other things too like Paul says and I think he was talking about himself.

He wasn't sure if he went into the third heaven in his body or out of his body Elijah gets apparently on to a fiery chariot and Physically goes up to heaven and that that's that's where he is right now in his physical body

And I do not believe that angels have a fiery stable where they hook up their fiery horses

For their fiery chariots in heaven. I think that was simply for the purpose of Grabbing Elijah and bringing him to where God wanted him to be

We see angels killing You know hundreds of thousands of troops in the

Old Testament Not just tempting people physically killing people on the battlefield

And then of course our Lord in his physical body is at the right hand of the Father in heaven

As you said the spirit matter matter dualism That that from the

Cartesian worldview where it's like water and oil that don't mix that's not the biblical view But it's always been a question of case.

How does it work? Some church fathers and reformed church fathers like Zankea said they are made of subtle subtle matter

They can shift in right and appear physical physically if they want to The majority report from the

Western Church is interestingly enough that when they form bodies or whatnot, they take what they said was air or some other substance and compress it and form bodies to work through and And Does that not exactly sound like these this layering that they found in this material?

From some of these things that have shot off from from crafts In fact, I listened to an old interview of Tom DeLong before he started his company when he was just saying he had these contacts

And he said one of his contacts basically said it's like he said how do these things appear from another dimension physically midair?

and then disappear and This Guy that was his sources.

It's like nanotech injection molding. They just form it and then they can disperse it

And that sounds strikingly like what? Aquinas and Francis Turretin and others said, you know, there's speculations and how

Angels appear physically within our realm So it fits like a hand in glove

So number one there is no duality in the Cartesian sense But we have resources from the history of the church

They thought through these things and a lot of it sounds strikingly similar to what people like the late valet have said, right?

Ray, do you have anything to follow up on? No, I think that's a I think that's a great a great summation of it

It really is The early church fathers, I mean from From origin and Tertullian on and especially the the reformed divines

They would they would understand this in a way that we don't because They but they didn't have the technology.

They didn't have the technological background that we possess But it would make perfect sense to them.

So no, I think he did. I think he did a brilliant job of summing that up Yeah So so when so in a sense, this is these

UFOs or UAPs this is nothing new in a sense as well We're not just the only generation of humans to experience

Things like this. There's cultural distinctions between different groups of people who have also experienced

Similar things of things flying in the sky where they have no explanation. Is that correct? well, you know here let me

Let me throw back to one of my one of my heroes

John Keel John Keel said These things have been here from the beginning

There has never been a time that these things have not been present in this world and I think and he is he was one of the again, one of one of the most

Christian atheists I Have ever known Because he has he has such a great

He's an atheist, but he has a great grasp of the spiritual nature of things And I think what he's saying there is these things these things are part of this universe the paranormal part that which goes alongside the normal and They pop in and out and they've always been here.

So yeah, it's not an isolated thing. It's not a recent thing People have always had these experiences

Huh? And and I think that discussion will begin to open up Even with these disclosures, they're making it sound like well

We don't know what these things are that we're running into all of the sudden That was the original and so that kind of made it go with well, maybe

China just leapfrogged us But even with the data that's out there Intelligence analysts and others have said okay.

Well the tic -tac was in 2004 No, no way. They leapfrogged us for that long

Right, even though a leapfrog now is impossible But now you're beginning to see more open discussion from the media that well

This is the same phenomenon people have been talking about since the 50s And then I think the the discussion will open up to historical examples like the airship sightings

In the 1800s, and of course, there's all sorts of things from history, you know flying shields above battlefields flying canoes

That were reported Strange things in the sky they always seem to be interested in military movements, right?

Interestingly enough, so that's not a new aspect either Yeah, what do you what do you think?

And we we've talked about this before in some live streams and some previous podcasts because I mean if you if you look at the

Camp that would argue that ufos are strictly demons, right? And then you would look at in ephesians where it talks about our battle is not against flesh and blood

But rather the principalities and powers of darkness. So if that indeed is the case

If they're strictly spiritual in nature, what is the reason? Why they have a thing for showing up at military bases or have it or the or if there's this tic -tac encounter is strictly

A demon that somehow The f -16 pilot got lucky and saw him

Back in 2004. I mean, what what's the motive behind? it appearing at these military bases or the

Shutting down nuclear facilities ray like you were talking about How do we make sense of that?

I would I would toss this out there if I mean what what is satan's ultimate goal?

He wants to deceive humankind He doesn't want us to come to a saving knowledge of christ he he wants to Uh confuse us.

He's a liar and the father of liars so if If these are all demonic what better way to deceive a populace

Than to appear as a technologically superior race

Who then as we anthropocentrize things? Then says well, obviously if they're that much more technologically advanced than we are they must be much more spiritually advanced

So please little gray aliens. Tell us what you believe about god And then it opens the door to whatever these entities say

A lot of people are going to buy in and say oh, that's exactly right Well, look look what they can do and we can't they must be telling us the truth.

Why would they lie to us? and so You know, there's there's that's what that's one aspect of it.

Um I I think we have to we have to never close the book on the fact

That we can't limit god's creative ability to simply life on this planet

We know that we're created in god's image We can't say that he didn't create other intelligent life that is not in his image.

So these things could be life forms I I doubt it Knowing the physics of of this universe.

I I doubt it and the peculiarities And fine -tuning that takes place for life to exist here

I I doubt that it's life elsewhere, but it could be and so we can't we can't If we if we rule that out a priori

We've just lost a great Deal of the population who say well

They won't even consider this They they've got one thought in mind. They're they they're not they're not examining the evidence

Wow, so Yeah, i'll follow up with that too Um that if you look in the history of the church there there was more openness than you might think to the idea of intelligent life on other planets um

It was a debate and a discussion. Um, I believe in the 1800s 1800s It was in the medieval time.

I think they even called it the doctrine of divine Abundance or something? The idea that god wouldn't create an empty universe

And I think in the medieval times, uh way before the reformation I think there was even a guy who was burned at the stake for denying it um uh

Because you know, they they were quite trigger happy with persecuting anybody who disagreed with the church

But there's a period where that was an open discussion in the 1800s thomas chalmers.

Who's a scottish presbyterian In responding to tom pain who said well clearly we see all the planets now clearly

There would be life on them. And so what did jesus have to die in each one of those planets? So he used that as his apologetic for deism and thomas chalmers was very adamant that um

No, I I do believe that that's quite possible But that life isn't made in god's image wasn't under the the covenant of works like adam was so The drama of redemption's here on earth.

We are He said we are still in a unique position That doesn't deny that now again.

I'm not saying I necessarily agree with that, but there is a lexicon Um from orthodox men in the history of the church who have wrestled with this question

Um again as as ray said i'm not affirming that that's what this is Right, but I think for the sake of argument at least exposing people to the fact

You know so much of this. Okay. How do we engage with this? Does do we have a credible answer? The question of of life elsewhere that the church actually wrestled with that before it became a fad in the modern world

Um, so it does show that the church is intellectually engaged When when it comes to the question of demons, too

I think you were alluding to something andrew when you quoted the text about principalities and powers

We have to keep in mind too that we don't quite understand everything about the angelic realm and we have no reason to think that the

Demons, which is our shorthand for fallen angels aren't from all different types of orders, whatever the order is

It appears to be that that satan was a seraphim or a cherubim from certain texts um, but the mere fact that that Part of the good news is that christ has triumphed over the principalities and the powers and authorities

Shows us that from the different rankings Whatever it is, and there's all these speculative Systems in the history of the church, whatever that is

There's fallen and unfallen ones and I still think just with the technological

Meme when we think of a ufo of a nuts and bolts thing still when you say demon The the red pajamas with the pitchfork comes to mind and um, you know young girls spinning up split pea soup

Uh, you know from the exorcist. That's what we think of with demon, but I believe that the the category is broader

Broader than than we might assume and their interest in our activities

Well the spirit realm on both sides seems to be very interested in our activities

Um, we learn in the new testament the angels long to look into the things that we know as the church um um that That uh

We even see in daniel Seems to be an interest

In a parallel between what's going on in the spirit realm and what's going on um in warfare between nation states

Uh with michael saying he had to fight the prince of persia and that kind of mirrored what was going on geopolitically at the time um, even the uh, the term watchers which is used just once in daniel implies that Um these spiritual entities watch us um

And that's interesting too because this phenomenon Seems to just do a lot of watching

And not a whole lot of intervention So so just to kind of Challenge us to remain biblical but to think outside the box and maybe there's things that we're not seeing right, right

Yeah, you know I would I would I want to toss as we're looks like we're getting closer on time here

I want to toss this out just as An unassailable point of hope for christians uh

Go read the eighth chapter of romans And if you don't have time to read the entire eighth chapter of romans concentrate on verses 38 and 39

For i'm convinced that neither death nor life nor neither angels nor demons neither the present nor the future nor any powers

Nor height nor depth nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of god

That is in christ jesus our lord that I mean I know there are going to be christians who regardless of how this comes out

Who are going to be? shaken because of this What what are you worried about?

Romans 8 38 39 to you you read that and tell me what you're concerned about I want

I want to get something because we are approaching the end in in light of what you just said ray I want this to be on the record because I do want ufo twitter

Um, they are all interested in you. Uh, this is one thing ray for as much as the ufo people may

Not like the christian view of things everyone i've talked to respects ray so ray, um

Uh, is it the christian perspective that we should cover up this information and be on the side of a cover -up?

Because that's the deal with this collins elite thing that people often tie you to with the contacts you had in the 90s and that that to me is the

Is the rankest Vilest attitude that any christian could ever take it

What what are we? Again, what are we afraid of? We're here to explore god's creation.

That's you know as as francis bacon said, you know, god's given us two books the holy scriptures and the book of nature

And so we can explore the book of nature and we need to explore every aspect of the physical world

Because all that does is reflect more of god's glory on him unto him the more we discover about creation

The greater we glorify him the more we can understand that so for a christian we should never be afraid to expose

Everything. I well, let me let me temper that i'm not saying We should expose things that would make us as a as a nation

Or any nation vulnerable to their enemies by exposing our our information gathering techniques those sorts of things

But in terms of reality, we should not be afraid to to explore and examine and discuss openly

Everything because we have nothing to fear. Absolutely. And in fact one thing, uh, and just ray

How much you got a meeting in a in a not too long from now? How much more time do you have? Uh, I can give you another 20 minutes.

Okay, sounds good. I just want to get okay. Awesome So this is an important segment I think just because now

I totally agree the scripture that came to mind were two things is that one this is the world we should have a perspective of this is the world that Jesus christ created that all things are created by him and for him.

So if indeed whatever these indeed are They exist in the world that god created that jesus christ is lord over he created all things both visible and invisible

So it is not something that we should fear But also in regards you think about christ's ministry here on earth, what did he say when he is before trial?

He said everything i've done i've done i've spoken openly. I haven't done anything in secret So we should not have the fear of having to hide anything

We should bring it out into the open shine the light of the gospel on it and have that sort of conversation and so I think this is important when a lot of people are asking well, so what who cares?

Why does this matter because I want to get your thoughts on this colin. I believe that right now We aren't just really in a

Secular, we're not just becoming secular. We are we are in free fall right now. We are plummeting

We are we are going off the cliff historically whenever a society Goes off the deep end when it comes to secularism

There's this giant gaping spiritual hole or vacuum and that usually gets filled in by paganism occultism

Just because we all have that jesus -shaped hole that we need to we long for and it ends up being filled up by that vacuum so the reason why

I bring this up is because You always look at ufology has a unique relationship

To the world of the occult now there is aspects where it's strictly Physical which we may sometimes if we do another intelligence briefing, we'll talk about that that's showing up With an f -16 fighter pilots,

I mean, they're not doing an occultic ritual They're just doing a security detail over a naval base these objects show up, but there are legitimate

Practices that god calls an abomination. You do not do you don't even entertain them And that is part and partial to this whole ufo discussion.

So do you both want to just give your thoughts on just? The relationship of ufos to the world the occult the dangers of it

Why we think we are there as a culture and then how do we address that right now as christians?

Given where we are as a culture because I truly believe That the reason why this is important We've been beating this drum here for two years that as these disclosures come up And people don't have an answer for it ufo ufology typically is a gateway into the world of the occult

Which is an immense danger given the secularism I see tons of people being brought into A lot of real spiritual blindness and deception.

So that that's one of my My heart and motivation even behind having you both on so i'll just leave it up to you ray or colin

I'll i'll leave it up to you to see who wants to go first. I'll let you both piggyback off each other Well, i'll i'll jump in first.

I you know, there there is a I think the greatest example of The ufo question leading into the occult

Is probably stephen greer and his ce5 I mean when you're when you're trying to psychically contact aliens and draw them in and you have spiritual manifestations take place

You're dealing with something that is is far beyond extraterrestrial life you may be dealing with Inter -dimensional life in terms of coming from the supernatural to the natural but if you

It's very very easy to be pulled into a study of ufos and unless unless you have a solid understanding of origins meaning morality and destiny

If you if you don't have a solid foundation for those four questions Then you're going to be open to all sorts of deceptive ideas and there are there are countless ideas that will that will

People who purvey them would love to tickle your ears with and we're right back to we're right back to scripture

Yeah, because you know, there are people that are are heaping teachers around them to tickle their ears

So colin i'll let you take it from there Sure, I I think

When a culture's paradigm Is beginning to break down?

You see a pattern in history where People go to the occult looking for answers

And gary north in his book on holy spirits that I highly recommend Views this interpretation of history through van till's rationalism irrationalism

Um Critique of man -centered epistemology that the christians the true rationalist because we believe that god

Is incomprehensible? He is reasonable But we can't comprehend him

So we have a foundation for believing the world is rational without becoming rationalists Rationalists Because there isn't an identity

There's an overlap between our thoughts and god's thoughts hence why we can think his thoughts after him and he can reveal himself to us

But we can't use our own mind even the laws of logic as a way to determine truth

Um, it is certainly truth is not going to be incoherent since god is the foundation of logic um

But but we are not rationalists in a sense As van till would say we're true rationalists

As christians, but we're not rationalists in the worldly sense. And so what happens is a society

Builds its understanding around man's philosophies Whichever views have risen to ascendancy and seem to work

But because it's just man's views and not the truth because god is truth Eventually the holes show up And eventually the paradigm breaks down and then there's a swing towards irrationalism

Looking for answers there and Irrationalism plays in to the occult secret knowledge um knowledge gained outside of the ordinary paths of gaining knowledge

And as north shows in his book, there's even outbreaks of more occult phenomenon

In these periods throughout history, so I do think there's a connection In light of where we are at culturally

Though of course the enemy is always at work um, even when Throughout history nations were founded on christianity

There was still witchcraft and all these things that were reported, but they had a worldview to explain it

And to resist it a major Um Question in the ancient world was not only how can

I be right with god? But how can I be protected from the evil spirits? And that's why the christus victor understanding of the atonement

Was so emphasized in the early church because that was the question people were asking It's not that it's in conflict with penal substitution.

It's not that the early church didn't teach penal substitution But a big question was how can I be protected from the evil spirits?

um and so I think as people swing from rationalism to irrationalism as C .s

lewis says as they swing from being materialists to magicians Which this phenomenon seems to be?

Psychologically targeted to do What what's this book? Is that that?

the intro of uh, the screw tape letters Man, I need to read that that that is that is so indicative of where we are man.

That's crazy Yes, he says the enemy would rather have us either be materialists or magicians

Yes time of transition. We can show you can account for the supernatural and remain rational.

Hey, sam harris Uh, maybe you should start taking us more seriously too now

Now your worldview has fallen apart because we could offer you Um an account that won't get you into all this woo

Yeah And so so yeah, that that's my my approach that that christianity can speak to this um and answer it but i think you're trying to Go ahead.

No. No, I just I was just thinking as well too just in regards to the cultural Aspect of just being a magician versus a materialist.

And in fact, I was thinking about Influencers and people who are having influence in the culture Demi lovato

She is someone who is uh been a huge influence, especially in the younger millennial gen z age and You know

What's interesting is that one of her posts probably about six months ago. She was talking about she actually went out

To a ce5 disclosure, uh with dr. Stephen griot on an actual outing and she experienced whatever these

Uh entered whatever these dimensional Demonic entities were doing during this seance and she equates that to a very unique moment of her spiritual growth as a human being uh, very very open about that and so And even now, you know, she said she's had some statements now about her her now

Gender identity and just the confusion that she has there but honestly, I honestly just hearing that in connection steven greer just broke my heart because as much as You know, sometimes people want there are some people even making memes kind of joking back and forth towards demi lovato just that my heart hurt just because This is one

She's indicative of just really the cultural confusion that we have as a whole And someone who is trying to find spiritual fulfillment in What steven greer was presenting through uh, these occultic seances and how is steven greer doing that?

He's using the current ufo disclosure as saying all this is happening But go ahead and you can skip out the middleman.

You don't have to worry about the disclosure to happen You can download this app don't as we said before don't download the app.

Don't do it. Don't do it It's spiritually dangerous But you can go ahead and cross dimensions and get in contact with higher entities to gain this special esoteric knowledge

And this is part of who what makes you and defines who you are Um, and so that's and then again, not just that you'll have different ufo cults you think about in the late

Prior to the year 2000 when everyone thought that the millennium was happening You had a big variety of cults whether it's heaven's gate

There's a lot of other lesser known cults that were had something to do surrounding aliens So that just times of uncertainty do create massive movements and this is why we think this is to have an important discussion about this, you know,

I think you can You can sum up the whole problem with an old song title

Looking for love in all the wrong places Absolutely people are looking for an unconditional love

In all the wrong places because there's only one place that you can truly find that and that's in christ and Everything else is a cheap substitute

Mm -hmm It's it's interesting too as I was listening to one of tom's earlier podcasts today

Uh, this was when he was on fade to black. Yeah, I listened to some of that today I'm here to tell you ufos are a bad bad news.

I believe he went with stephen greer and did those exercises in the desert and on this

Interview he said why did something dumb that I shouldn't have done and opening myself up to these things

Um, and so it's interesting that that he's all pro -disclosure, but he's the opposite of stephen greer

That he doesn't have a christian view But he does see deception and the danger in all of this.

So this is a conversation isn't just one view There's people with different views and you know,

I would like to just ask tom if you ever read deuteronomy Because you said you weren't supposed to do those things, but there's this really old book that also says you're not supposed to do those things um

And so it's just interesting. Um seeing even I guess you could have all that common grace

From tom knowing knowing. Yeah, a lot of this stuff is bad um

So so it begs for us to enter into the conversation there. Yeah no,

I absolutely and in fact one of the things I think walter martin talked about when he talked about the Having a passion for the people who are in who are trapped in the world of the occult and he says, you know people are saying to Everyone's saying to reach out beyond but you have you have told us to draw near to you

And there is an aspect where people are trying to reach out beyond to try and find spiritual wholeness fulfillment and ultimately forgiveness because all of us know that we've sinned against the holy god and all the righteousness is like filthy rags and the only way to truly have peace is not to try and Get in contact with inter -dimensional craft

Beings entities knowledge or knowledge or try and cross a forbidden dimension. The only hope is to Cross the only dimension that's possible for peace with god, which is the dimension that was made possible by jesus christ

Who is fully god? Fully man, you know because again when we're having this whole ufo discussion, we're talking about The physical components and the spiritual components.

Well, that was met perfectly in the person of jesus christ You have god who is 100 man

And then you have god and also who is 100 god who came here live the life that we couldn't live bore a punishment for us on the cross that we could have the righteousness of god and cross that dimension in the right way to have peace and fellowship

With him that christ said in the high priesthood prayer that he wants to be able to share with us If we would repent of our sins and put faith in him and so the reason why we're put now the reason why maybe i'm getting a little preachy here is because this is really the

True reality of the true answer to this whole discussion. This is the only way that someone like tom delong jeremy corbell

Demi lovato all these people who are reaching out beyond like there's so much even in tom delong's everything he's done

With angels and airwaves and all the work that he's done just kind of really shows The image of god imprinted on him like he has just he's put god has put eternity in the hearts of men and here they are emulated in so many different ways, but the only way to truly

Set yourself straight in that regard is to look to the only person who bridged that dimension

Which is the god man, jesus christ So enough of me give me any of your thoughts about the importance of why is the gospel important to this as christians?

As we wrap up here What isn't the gospel important to? amen yes, uh

I mean ray just hit the nail on the head. Yes um I I I also think of um, um, uh in john 151

Um when you we talked about uh christ um bridging bridging the gap

And in john 151 and he said to him most assuredly I say to you hereafter You shall see heaven open in the angels of god ascending and descending the son of man

Uh, you know, we all have a longing for something more than the material realm and that makes sense because we have a soul

And as you said that this is why Or as ray said why we look for love in all the wrong places

But we are reconciled to god through christ. And as augustine said our hearts are restless till they rest in you but when it comes to this we all have this desire for um

Again that there's more to life in the material. But as we just saw that that's found Through coming to christ who is the word made flesh at the right hand of the father in the highest of heavens

And as the westminster larger catechism says upon the moment of death Um, we are translated into the highest of heavens

Um where we will have a perspective of things that will go beyond anything anybody claims to have with secret knowledge here on earth um

And there's a sense in which as paul says we are already seated with christ in heavenly places

Um, and so as we as we draw near to god through christ We find what we are looking for when we get

Allured by all these other things um um of course the other things show us that that there is a conflict

Um in this world and in the heavens, it shows us that there is this other dimension of reality

But our anchor is in christ And that's what we need to remain rooted through prayer through being in the word um through being rooted in a local church faithful church and that that's

Uh, as always that that's what we need to be doing as we need to call people to is to christ And to be discipled

No, absolutely. Well, I think this has been a great sort of intelligence briefing Of kind of a really broad overview.

I feel like within This a little over an hour and a half discussion. We probably hit a broad variety of topics that could easily be a 10 -part podcast

So let us know this We mentioned uh, we are kind of in the middle of an overhaul here at cultish

There's a lot of things that we are in the process of wanting to uh revamp to make cultish even better If this is a discussion you have enjoyed

And if you would like to see more discussions like this Which we think is incredibly important a lot of you are on here on this facebook live stream asking really great questions having some really enlightening conversations um

You know and I think even a lot now a lot of the back and forth about you know there's some just even just discussion about the difference between a uh,

I believe an angel or a fallen entity if that if i'm not mistaken and I think the reason even for that pad that passionate discussion, which

I saw is just because there is a vacuum where That the unseen realm really hasn't been discussed.

Um, and so like I said, there's aspects while there's a lot of aspects of Mike, dr. Michael heiser where I don't agree with him personally

I do appreciate the fact that I think what his work has shown is that there is this huge vacuum that Of a discussion needs to be had about these subjects and it's something that we cannot ignore

Um, I would agree fully andrea any last thoughts as we wrap up here Yeah, when recent or when when disclosures are coming out don't let your uncertainty

In the information lead you to question the certainty in god's word god's words has sanctified them by the truth

Thy word is truth. God is sovereign. He has declared the end from the beginning Uh, these things are not outside of his sovereign hand or control.

He knows about them knew about them and it's all for the good For those who love god for those who are called according to his purpose, right?

This is going to a destination This is not without purpose. This is not meaningless, but it's only found

Meaning in purpose rooted in christ, right? Who is the rock of our salvation who is jeremiah is greatly said preaching the gospel here

That he is the one who's created everything. There's there's nothing outside of his control like Christians beyond anyone should have the certainty about the situation that's going on now

Do not let the uncertainty Of what's going to happen in the future make you question the certain truth of god's word because you're only going to get yourself in A predicament where you're going to create idols where you fear things other than god which leads you to sin

And despair and and the the truth is like ray said earlier the answer is in romans 8 There's nothing that can separate you from jesus christ our lord because he is the god man

Our salvation is secure in him The enemy is a defeated foe. It's a defeated foe

Absolutely. Absolutely. All right. So again, if you enjoy this conversation, uh comment on our latest facebook live stream

Let us know what you thought or when this comes out in podcast format format or on youtube Let us know again.

Colin array. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you I feel like it's been way too long. I feel like we we made for a great uh,

Power team slash fatal four -way, whatever you want to call it It's like a wrestling match sort of reference.

So we need to have a name we need to have a name for ourselves. I know We'll have to figure that out. So if you have a suggestion for Me Well, it's four because your name's colin.

So you make up at least the majority of that minus the s You're the colin. We're the we're the s and the elite We're your colin.

We're the elite. So I like that. Yeah, we'll figure it out. Um, yeah, but this is a blast We hope to have more conversations like this as these disclosures develop

And a lot of you are really encouraged by this conversation So all that being said again, if you if you want to help support content like this as we build and revamp

You can go to the cultist show .com. Uh, there is a donate tab Uh, you can donate one time or monthly and you can also help contribute to future conversations like this

All right, everyone. Thanks for hanging out with us for the last two hours or so on on Here on facebook ray.

You got another meeting you got to get to so thanks again for coming on and colin And awesome, we'll talk to you guys next time on cultist talk to you guys soon.