Eric Muldrow on Police Reform and the Future of Policing

Conversations That Matter

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Welcome to Conversations That Matter podcast. I am John Harris and I am joined today with a special guest Eric Muldrow from Code Red Conversations.

00:08

You can check out his channel on YouTube and I'm assuming Eric, do you have a podcast as well?

00:14

Code Red Conversations or where can people find you? No, no podcast not yet Anyway, they can primarily find me again as you said on YouTube.

00:22

That's where I do the The majority of my content where I create the majority of my content

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But I'm also pretty active on Facebook under Code Red Conversations or an

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Instagram under the same name or you can find me on Facebook just under Eric Muldrow You'll see a picture of me

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Standing at a podium looking trying to look all official and whatnot Yeah, well what

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I want to do today is and this is gonna be an interesting conversation for My listeners at least because we talked a lot about the social justice movement and evangelicalism

00:56

And of course right now there is I'm just gonna say it and you can say it if you want to but I'm not putting

01:01

The words in your mouth. I think there's a war on the police right now and We were talking before we we started recording about your testimony and how you became a

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Christian So we're gonna first talk about kind of your testimony Christian testimony and then how you became a police officer and we're gonna talk about this war on the police

01:20

We're gonna talk about Black Lives Matter systemic racism The future of policing that should be interesting.

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So what's right? What's on the horizon ahead for as far as crime prevention and the militarized police people are concerned about these things

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And so I'm just looking forward to it. So let's let's pick up where we left off before we started recording Eric tell me a little bit about yourself

01:41

Yeah, as we were saying as we were talking Before we started recording. I was basically raised in a in a

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Christian home It's really weird we had a weird dynamic My in which

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I don't want to I don't want it to have that take up too much of the conversation But my dad didn't take us to church.

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He would always go to church, but he would never take us kids to church Which is a whole another conversation

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Until we moved to South Carolina and then I was about 16 or so Actually moved.

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I was about 14 and he wanted us to start going to church with him then But I really didn't want to go.

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I just did not want to go to church I was like, I remember distinctly when I was little asking my dad.

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I think I might have been six years old I remember asking him Can he take us to church with him and he literally said

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I'm not taking you bad kids to church with me Which like blows my mind you would think if your kids don't know how to act and you're a

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Christian You're a deacon in the church You want to bring your kids along with you so that they can hear the word and learn how to live, right?

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But anyway, but it wasn't until I was about 16 17 years old where I just I had a desire where I wanted to start

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Going so I ended up going but even then I had never really I had a profession of faith for many years and I was very open about my faith at work

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Because my law enforcement career pretty much extends to working in the prison system working in the county jail here in Vegas patrolling the streets here in Las Vegas as a as a cop and so I have made a

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I had a profession of faith and I would actually argue and debate as far as apologetics go with inmates and some of my fellow officers and I but at the same time

03:39

I was living such a hypocritical life. There was such consistent and deep sin in my life and It wasn't until about I was 37 or so where the

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Lord really got a hold of me. I remember I was we were saying this before the video started That I was clicking through the channels and I came across The way the master on TBN with Ray Comfort and I saw them on the streets doing witnessing

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So I stopped because I loved the apologetic aspect of it So I stopped and I just was listening and then

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I just fell in love with the show with the program So I watch it any every time there was a new episode will come up it was

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It was a few months after hearing that and listening and to where the

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Lord used by his spirit just started really what the weight of my sin started weighing so heavily on my heart and I was truly convicted and I recall

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I can't say exactly when and where I was I was saved but I can remember just falling on my knees crying out to the

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Lord and seeking his face in forgiveness and understanding the fact that I'm a sinner and that I didn't want to stand before him and be in Face his wrath.

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I wanted to be one of his I wanted to be his and And man, I'm telling you that Radically changed my life

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It did the transformation in my life. It wasn't like I was a quote -unquote bad dude bad person

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But just a conviction and just seeking him and it was a process over some years after that and That continued to this day where the

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Lord just brought in front of me. Just some amazing Amazing godly man through history people.

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I had never heard of I used to dine on TD Jake's and Joel Osteen as far as And Creflo dollar as far as people

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I used to listen to but just to God's grace. He opened the door from hearing weight watching the way of the master and the

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Lord using raised ministry to bring me to faith and repentance and faith just the doors that opened up to sound the biblical preachers and teachers who helped me understand the

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Bible for the first time in my life and Man, it's just been such a crazy journey over the years and he he restored my family man

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I'm telling you we can go on and on about what how radical a transformation was in my life

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Yeah, wow, that's that is great. I love hearing that and I think I speak on your behalf I speak this for myself though Anyone listening who wants to know how to be in a right relationship with the

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Lord you can reach out to me I'm sure you can reach out to Eric and we would love to introduce you to to Jesus.

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So, how's that for? Starting off the whole conversation on a very high point I don't know how it gets better now, but it can't frankly.

06:39

It's just downhill but Policing a little bit and and hopefully weave into the conversation a bit

06:48

Christianity and Biblical principles of justice. I'd like to hear from you as well What made you decide to become a police officer in Las Vegas of all places, you know

06:57

I've always wanted to be I can't say always but for a long time I wanted to be a cop even as a kid before I joined the army.

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I wanted to Go in as a military police officer

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But when I went in there was a I would have to wait like six months after I graduated high school

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Now I'm old man, you know, I'm 50 years old just turned 50 this year so we're going back to 88 when

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I graduated high school and the movie lethal weapon Made me want to be a cop with Mel Gibson and Danny Glover.

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I fell in love with that movie I wanted to be he was so bad in that movie. I was like man

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I want to be that guy. Yeah, and I wanted to be a cop so then I started a journey wanting to be a police officer, but like I was saying when

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I Went to join the army They told me I'd have to wait six months and I was like man, I want to get basic training

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I want to get all this mess over with so I end up going in as a medic But I always had the passion and desire to be in law enforcement.

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But then when I got out I went I moved to Indiana and worked as a corrections officer in one of the state prisons out there and I could have

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I have a Probably tell you a thousand stories just based on that experience But then I was pretty much stayed on a path of law enforcement pretty much from 19 and in 1992 all the way up until 2014 when

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I retired there was a break there when I moved to Las Vegas and I did security For about a year one in one in a couple of local casinos but then

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I hired on with the Las Vegas Metro Police Department as a corrections officer in the county jail in 96 and then

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I transferred out to the streets in 2006 and I finished out my career as a patrol officer.

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So you have a wide -ranging career You've seen a lot of different aspects of crime prevention criminal justice

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I want to ask you then. Is there a war on police right now in this country? Do you think? Oh, no question

08:54

No question about it. It is and I've seen this brewing and developing for some years now and I'm not saying anything that anyone who is reasonable and Tries to be rational

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Hasn't hasn't said before But it's been so prevalent it especially in light of how everything the the vilification now

09:19

Let me backtrack a little bit now I'm honest and open enough to understand that there's an ugly history with law enforcement here in our country in particularly amongst the ethnic groups

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Black folks in particular. I'm not a fool I've had my own personal experiences with police officers before I became one that weren't good and Growing up in the 70s in New Jersey.

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A lot of people think that living up north is always was such a haven of peace Love and tranquility, but it was no it wasn't like that at all

09:51

Hmm, I dealt with more racism growing up in New Jersey than I did when we moved to South Carolina Wow later it no not even on the same level it was such blatant bigotry

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Partiality however, you want to term it there was it was so it was to such a ugly degree

10:13

No, we were it was the early 70s. We're talking so we're talking about not far removed from the civil rights movement but I want to ask

10:23

I want to interject real quick. So you had you had negative experiences with police officers and You still wanted to become one that's interesting to me a little bit.

10:33

Yeah, I think because I my dad was Like I was saying there's some weird dynamics going on with my family.

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My dad was 30 years older 32 years older than my mom

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So and my dad was from South Carolina Sumter, South Carolina as a matter of fact,

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I've been there so oh Yeah, so he died in 2003. He was 93 years old so You figure in all those years of living.

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He was born in 1910 in in the South So all those years all those years of living

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He had he wasn't always the sweetest and fondest of white people But at the same time he never taught us to hate

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He never taught us to hate and even though he had his skeletons and his issues as we all have

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As just being in this flesh this sinful flesh He he gave us he planted seeds in us foundational roots as far as Understanding who people are and not hating having hate in your heart

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So, I think that had a played a big role in me understanding that and then I had a lot of friends also a lot

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Of friends in school white kids, which who didn't look at me weird who didn't mistreat me

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So you know is between bad experiences and then also had some pretty good experiences as you were able to separate the office of police

11:58

Officer and the function of the police from the bad eggs who gave you a hard time

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Absolutely, which a lot of people are having a hard time with that today and and it's it seems like it's because of this concept

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Which we hear all the time that It's systemically racist. The police are systemically racist.

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It's been that way for a long time it's still that way and so that means even if you're someone like yourself who was a

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Black man who wore the badge, you know wore the uniform put on the badge You're part of this systemic white supremacy just because you're part of the system, right?

12:33

Am I understanding that that correctly then that's the perception we get from like Black Lives Matter and social justice groups.

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Absolutely It's a popular mindset nowadays It's own it's pretty much become mainstream that that that way of thinking but my one of my big issues with that Perspective is how consistent is that?

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We've all been in it now and and I'm I have no I don't I take no joy in talking about some of the topics

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When I talk about the issues within the black community, I don't shout these problems out and celebrate them

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I point them out because it's ignored Through through primarily through the mainstream media and a lot of these social social justice advocates

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Don't really they they never want to talk about these things. But my big thing is let's be consistent with that Now we understand that there are issues within the black community the pie

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The disproportionate crime rate the disproportionate fatherless home rate, but yet at the same time if as a black person if I say

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If someone was to say, you know what? I've had issues. I've seen the problem

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I've seen the things that some black folks have done and I've had issues with black people Mom, I've been mistreated or whatever the case may be and I don't trust any of them if let's just say that's the terminology that's

13:55

Person a white person said who had a bad interaction with a black person if they use that Everyone was well, okay.

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I'm like you racist. Like how could you say something like that? How could you judge a whole group of people based on the actions of a few but yet at the same time a lot?

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of these same people have no problem whatsoever flipping flipping that around and turning around and pointing out the problems within a small group of police officers how they may have been mistreated and Attempting to paint the whole group what as being guilty of the same mindset same culture so my big issue is being be consistent if that's how if that's your perspective the white guy who got beat up or Bullied as a kid by by some black kids or whoever if they turn around and they use that same argument

14:44

Don't call him a bigot. Don't call him racist. Don't call him a hater You should be equally as understanding as you would for as you would expect for someone who who had your perspective

14:53

Yeah, I could not agree more. I wanted to pick your brain on something just to see if this is just a

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Idea that I have philosophically speaking. I guess I had a guy reach out to me a couple days Well, maybe now it's two weeks ago or so who he got kind of the experience.

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You just shared He was a bullied white kid and living in an area. I guess predominantly

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It where black people lived I'm not sure exactly where but he had gotten beaten up by black people growing up and so he had gone to Southeastern which is a seminary that I graduated from and Southeastern is very much on the social justice train and When they when we started hearing things negative about systemic racism and the police and so forth

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And everything else attached to that He was suspicious of it just because of his own experience and and you know, he he was very clear with me

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He's like, I'm not racist. I don't hold anything against those people. I they're just they're people we have sin everyone has sin

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It's not a black thing a white thing a Hispanic thing You go down the list It's just a human thing and that's where he was coming from and and I thought you know, he's right that's the

15:57

Christian understanding that every single demographic is capable of sin including racism and And what seems to be happening right now?

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This is what I want to get your thoughts on is is instead where we're kind of taking this concepts of systemic racism

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In in policing or other institutions and we're kind of passing the buck on to them and saying no the blame for this is society

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It's not people. It's not a sinful heart that does sinful things. It's it's a system.

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It's something external and if we can all kind of change our environment so defund the police or somehow read

16:32

I don't know do some kind of a New training or reform in the police departments

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Then then we will have I guess a utopia or we'll get rid of this problem And I think as a

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Christian that's where I have a hard time is is thinking that you're never gonna get away from the sin that we all have inside and And passing the book on to an external system and saying it's the environment.

16:56

That's the problem. It's not our hearts It's just gonna be a recipe for disaster. Do you do you see what I'm seeing on that?

17:02

Do you agree? Oh, I agree 100 % it's funny I was listening to a podcast yesterday yesterday as a matter of fact and I'll probably just not name it just Just because I don't want to bring any extra attention on to it, but it probably it'll probably be easy to find once I Speak on the title and I'll be a little vague about it, but they were basically talking about abolition abolishing the police not

17:29

Defunding but abolishing the police Wow, and it's a quote -unquote

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Christian podcast. No way 100 % Let quote -unquote

17:42

Christian podcast and they were having a conversation about abolishing abolishing the police now to be fair I listened to about 50 % of it

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I didn't listen to the entire podcast and There was one lady on there at least one lady on there who was one to give some pushback

17:58

Even though her worldview is She's very much a social justice advocate She said some pretty crazy things over over the recent over in recent years

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But there was a push to and and they used a lot of the terminology that you just used

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It was the system you you you re -educate It was it was it was almost scary hearing some of the terminology that they were using

18:25

Re -educating people take people's guns away because there's so many guns out there and and you use it and allow the community to come together and and and Provide security and I'm sitting up here sitting up here listening to to this mess

18:45

Illogical mess and you profess to be a Christian but yet at the same time you're going to Assume that this kumbaya we're going to come together hold hands and everything's gonna be okay

18:58

And it was one point that I brought up in one of my videos. I critique black I have two videos where I critique black lives matter

19:06

And one of the points I brought up was the fact that when I went into the hood To police these areas after some of the worst events after some of the worst events

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You could think of where somebody literally had their house shot up or their kid gunned down on the streets and you go in there as a police officer and you attempt to find out who did this and the pushback and the barriers that you have to face because for various reasons and I know a lot of times people are fearful of repercussions

19:34

But sometimes it's just a hatred of the police. They don't want to give any information out.

19:40

How would these? How do they expect this newfound way of it's not law enforcement of Civil peace of security.

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How do they expect them these these concepts these individuals to be able to go in and get the job done

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What and and these are people who actually live in these areas there? They really want to emphasize that point they want people coming from these communities to provide

20:06

Protection and if you have a biblical perspective on that, how can you assume that that won't be without a ton of problems?

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Also, who's going to be the ones to overlooking and monitor and watch what these individuals do or It's just it lacks so much sense.

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These people don't think these thoughts. They don't think these ideas and concepts through I think you have a nail on the head with something with The example you gave is and the word

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I you hear a lot is village you said community, but they want to they want to create a village of This community that comes together and we won't need police and I mean it you almost want to sing

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John Lennon song imagine There's no countries. Imagine, you know, there's no police. There's no it's we're gonna take everyone's guns and somehow it's gonna be okay

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And and and the thing about that whole mindset is it's it's not the police aren't their concern

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It's it's not that they have a problem with police They have a problem that sounds like with any authority and they believe in this egalitarian utopia of some kind We're and that's resting on this assumption that men are good men

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If left to themselves are good and we're born into a world that corrupts us But if we if we just can get rid of those corrupting institutions

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Then we're gonna be fine and as Christians to hear a Christian podcast do that or a

21:26

Christian Church I was just reading an article about Matt Chandler's Church, which I just thought I don't know if you've seen stuff from there

21:32

But like anti -police stuff that I just couldn't believe you know These are guys that say that Mankind is sinful and needs

21:39

Christ and then they come over here and they contradict that opinion. And so So anyway,

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I'm ranting but I want to so hear from you. Are you surprised when you hear this kind of thing?

21:51

I know that there are three big Christian leaders I know that March with Black Lives Matter like is that kind of thing a surprise to you?

21:59

It was back in 2014 when 2015 when this stuff really started brewing

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When you brought up Matt Chandler, for instance, I used to listen to him Me too routinely and I said

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I said recommend him to my family and my kids could listen to him and I would have

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No concern over it but as the years have went by and I just started seeing this leftward shift and Now I couldn't even there was a time where I would say well

22:28

Let me I would listen to the sermon first and then I would say hey guys check this out But but this was when

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I started seeing him shifting towards this social justice movement But prior to that if I saw my daughter listening to Matt Chandler, I was like man

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Hey, I was I was thankful because he was he was solid but now I And I'm not saying the man isn't saved.

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I'm not saying that he's not a Christian But I'm saying that he is he is very so far off course

22:58

That to me he's dangerous That my honest opinion. He's dangerous in a lot of areas and he can lead people astray

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I'm not saying leaving people off the path of faith or I'm not making any type of claims like that But this social justice movement is so destructive potentially and in an actual in actuality, but as far as and Other people to be the onion wheel a

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I can go on and on men Eric Mason's men days to listen to and just really really appreciate.

23:30

I hope I'm not being problematic. I'm bringing it Oh, yeah. Look, this is what we found this podcast. We name a lot of those names.

23:35

So That's fine. No, I I mean the three guys I'll just say the three guys that I'm thinking of who are marching with black lives matter

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Ed Stetzer David Platt and to be Dean of wheel a they were public about it And so they be the end of wheel a apparently was one of the organizers and in DC of the

23:51

March so Here's the hook though. Here's the thing It all starts with well, there's police or their systemic racism in the police.

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Mm -hmm. I want to hear from you Is that true or in the year 2020 you've rubbed shoulders with a lot of policemen.

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I mean your your ministry and your the focus on your YouTube channel is a lot of helpful information on policing and Preparing yourself for you know, or hedging yourself against criminals, etc

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Do you see that do you see systemic racism in police? In other words our police departments characterized by this or how do you see that not at all?

24:29

I don't see systemic racism as in in the root of it. What I see are individual problems that may sprout out sprout up pop up and Is there such a thing as a racist cop?

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Absolutely, just like there's a such a thing as a racist dentist attorney

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Doctor any field you're gonna have individuals in there who have biases and Dislikes towards people who don't look like them every field

25:00

But when you look at policing at its core you have

25:06

Oftentimes especially you take a city like Chicago or any major city or even minor small city

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But let's let's take a city like Chicago You have men and women going into communities these high crime areas and that's something that's often overlooked

25:21

Is that there's such an interaction? with blacks coming in contact with the police

25:29

It's not primarily because anyone's out to get black folks Because there's an estimate anywhere from a half a million to two million cops here in the

25:37

United States those are some of the numbers that I've heard over over the years and if there was a a

25:44

Open season on the black man or black people and you have to you have two million people two million cops and then you have a system a whole government system that at that supporting them we there would be a whole lot more than 15 or 19 unarmed black men gunned down or black black folks that were killed as When we look at last year, there'd be a whole lot more than that going on what we often oftentimes overlooked is the fact that We have a lot of people a lot of white black brown

26:21

Asian You named the ethnic group Officers going into these communities and they are the main ones who are actually saving more black lives than anyone

26:33

Just a few days ago. I was listening to the police chief out of Chicago and He's a former chief that was in Chicago was it was in Dallas when the shooting took place back in think was 2015 or so over that 2016 2015 that the year escapes me exactly.

26:51

I think it was 2016, but it was a Probably 2015 anyway, but he was the same

26:56

Sheriff that was that was running the Dallas PD at the time. Now. He runs

27:02

Chicago's Police Department he said that Just in the seven months that have went by roughly this year

27:10

That Chicago the Chicago PD has taken over five thousand guns off the streets over 5 ,000 guns off the streets

27:18

Wow. Now just imagine if the police were not there and This is the inner city

27:24

Chicago we're talking about They say the suburbs all the nice areas were while the white folks are living the this is the the inner city imagine if those cops weren't there and those 5 ,000 guns were still on the streets and as bad as things have been this year and every year pretty much in Chicago Just imagine how horrific that would be when you have people out there running these

27:47

Basically ruling and running these streets and if you so if you remove this these so -called

27:54

Racist cops if you take them off the streets who's gonna be out there protecting these citizens

28:01

Who are who will be at the the will of these criminals? so this whole concept of the the racist system in law enforcement to me, it's it's insane and Those who who use that as an argument?

28:18

man, it concerns me with the fact that they just oftentimes just want to completely overlook the

28:25

Issue of crime in a lot of these areas and they don't have an alternative It sounds like it so one of the things that I've heard and it's

28:33

Different looks different in different places and most people don't have specifics when they say this is we should just rule

28:38

We're not radical. We don't want to get rid of the police, but we should reform the police Do you think there's are there are reforms helpful reforms that should be put in place or what do you what do you think about that?

28:50

Oh, absolutely. I've I've spoken about some of these issues in my opinion on My youtube channel and on my face and just some random

29:00

Facebook posts just off the top of my head I think that change is a needed thing

29:06

Let me back up a little bit and I don't want to lose sight of the main question here But if we looked at the history of law enforcement

29:13

If we just go if we go from the 60s until now, we have seen some radical Changes that have taken place just when we look at the data and the numbers

29:24

Well, let me answer your question real quick. And then hopefully when I get it, I'll get opportunity There's some numbers that I'd like to read off.

29:30

Just please. Yeah, just to share with your audience but Me for instance

29:35

I like I think that there's a need in the police Academy for somewhat of a military style

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Initially because it's such a challenging job. It could be so difficult But at the same time,

29:46

I think that it's problematic because let's say you go through a 20 -week police Academy And you're getting yelled at and you're getting forced to do push -ups and people screaming at you

29:57

And you're getting disciplined when you make mistakes and then after the Academy is done Send you out to the streets and then you're expected to be courteous to the person who

30:06

Who you come in contact with and one of the biggest complaints at least here in Las Vegas with our internal affairs one of the biggest

30:13

Biggest complaints that citizens have that citizens often have or had with officers was discourtesy cops being rude and If in you so my mindset was always

30:27

Perhaps the first half of the Academy should be tough more military military style as far as discipline goes

30:33

To make sure that you can handle the stresses on the job. But then after that You eliminate that aspect of it and you make it more of a classroom setting because you want people to understand these officers or potential officers to understand that you have to go out into these communities and interact with people and You don't and everyone doesn't

30:54

Just because you're a cop and you're dealing with someone doesn't mean that they're a criminal or they in that gives you and it doesn't

31:00

Give you a right to be a jerk because it is an issue There is an issue in that in law enforcement because there's some people get

31:09

Hungry or they let their power go to their head It's what we term in law enforcement as the 50 -pound bad syndrome their badges becomes like 50 pounds

31:19

You got all that you might have been punked out as a kid or bullied or whatever case may be now You got the badge and I got the weight of the whole police department behind you.

31:27

It can't power can corrupt Yeah, that's a very real issue.

31:33

But at the same time There are so many systems in place to keep officers in check

31:38

Now you have the public everybody and their mom has a camera phone. You have the citizens review boards

31:44

You have internal affairs. You have your direct line supervision. You have your You have your co -workers

31:50

Here in Vegas. We had a policy of truthfulness at all times if you were caught lying

31:56

You're gone. Your job is gone. There was no leeway about it. And Then you're talking about the local investigators.

32:05

You're talking about state level Investigators you're talking about a

32:10

Nationwide you have the Department of Justice that can step in if they find an agency is has abused their power

32:16

So you have a ton of checks and balances when it comes to police and it comes to law enforcement in general

32:23

So there have been changes that are taking place you hear a lot of people black lives matter love to spout out every year the cops kill a thousand people and Things and it happens every year and things aren't changing.

32:36

No, that's just a lie. That is just a flat -out lie There are there's I'm not saying that cops don't kill people every year

32:43

But to say that the number has basically remained the same over the years that's a lie people forget the fact that there are criminals out there who actually

32:53

Want to do people harm and you have cut you have almost 2 million cops making nearly 400 million interactions with the public

33:05

Addressing criminals on a hot on a very consistent basis bad things are going to happen

33:11

Somebody's gonna come in contact with those police officers who does who who doesn't want to go back to jail who hates cops

33:19

Who's evil or who's who's violently mentally ill or he's under the influence of some substance to where he becomes a

33:27

Threat to life or substantial bodily harm to that officer or to someone else and it may force that officer to have to take

33:34

That individual's life. That's the reality that a lot of people don't want to face There's ugliness out there and it's crazy how many

33:41

Christians get caught up in that mindset yeah, yeah, wow, I couldn't agree more with what you're saying that and and You know,

33:50

I don't know if you've seen you probably have the show Andy Griffith from back in Yeah, so I think you know, there's everyone wishes.

33:58

Well, most people wish I wish that you know Every place could be in a way like Mayberry, you know that Andy and you know

34:05

He just he doesn't even have to carry a gun with them because he can talk people out of whatever

34:11

Mischief that they want to involve themselves in one of the things that I've noticed I've lived in North Carolina, California Virginia and New York.

34:20

Most of my life has been in New York and The worst interactions I've had with police officers have been in New York.

34:27

I actually My audience doesn't know this and you're hearing this for the first time I slugged a police officer in the face when

34:33

I was 14 years old in a Boy Scout uniform now this I Now everyone's gonna want to know the rest of the story and I can't have time to give the whole story

34:42

But I was selling Boy Scout popcorn, you know Girl Scouts do cookies Boy Scouts do popcorn and this police officer came

34:48

I was walking our church border to there was a school on the other side I was walking from the school where I was selling popcorn to the church.

34:56

It was like 830 at night and This police officer came no lights Or anything stopped right in front of me.

35:03

It was dark I didn't know who it was and didn't identify himself came out and grabbed me and just said get in the car

35:08

That's the only thing I heard though. I slugged him and I ran and then he came after me a big wealth and you know,

35:14

I Had to get my parents together and everything and he said he could take me to juvenile hall was trying to intimidate me and my

35:20

You know, my parents said apologize and I said I was 14 I said, why should I my mom kicked me and I said,

35:26

I'm sorry and and that was it But I remember after that I was scared. I thought the police were just out to get me

35:32

And I think he felt stupid, you know this he thought that there was drug screwed up there was drug -related activity

35:38

He was a young guy like really young. He probably fresh out of the Academy and And I've been you know,

35:43

I remember dating my wife. We I go through this very liberal town. It's college town in New York I had a little

35:49

Second Amendment bumper sticker and I don't know if this had to do with it or not It might not have been but I was pulled over more times than I can count.

35:56

I was searched I was told to get out of the car and search for drugs. Of course. I never had drugs, but I you know,

36:03

I My my my interactions with policemen in New York weren't always the best now living in Virginia in the places

36:10

I've lived in North Carolina. I haven't really had many bad interactions They've been more pleasant and I wonder if that's because of places like New York there

36:19

Man, they're they're seeing so many more hard to see things and they're interacting with just you know

36:25

They don't know if they're gonna die, you know to the next day sometimes and or it's just more dangerous

36:30

And then in these other places it is more like Mayberry, you know, it isn't as crime.

36:36

There's not as much crime and so this kind of one -size -fits -all reform or An approach to federalize the police force, which is another thing

36:46

I've heard It just doesn't seem to me that it would match the communities because we're so diverse Did you agree with that or yeah,

36:53

I think that's a good point okay, and I think that what you said about using New York as an example was really good because You have a in the city in New York, New York City.

37:04

You have eight million plus people living there and you have a with a history when you especially if you go back from the 80s to the 90s and into If I'm not mistaken into the early 2000s

37:18

There the crime rate in certain parts was so high the homicide rate was somewhere in the neighborhood of 33 per for every 100 ,000 per capita and And this would gets into the point of the whole stop -and -frisk or You know reasonable suspicion stop that they use those tactics broken windows tactics to go in and Dramatically reduce the crime rate and that I'm sure there were other factors that played in also but you can't overlook a good proactive police officer who patrols is there now

37:56

Abuses and that's what caused a lot of the problems that they had there are some people though that didn't have they didn't have any Level of reasonable suspicion they just went in there.

38:04

They were just stopping people at random right, and some of them were black or Hispanic people that they stopped but I would say overall you have that that tactic is something that has been justified in Considered a reasonable and good tactic far as the

38:23

Supreme Court in the heart and the other higher courts and it was something that was allowed to be used and So, I think every area is different like you said you have some communities that are small town when

38:36

I was I was living in Arkansas a few years ago and You have it was Fayetteville, Arkansas small a smaller town

38:43

I think 70 ,000 people might live there if I'm not mistaken. So you have a pretty small town and You do have the

38:51

University of Arkansas there So you have a small aspect of the college community that could be a little problematic at times but it's just a different environment everyone's so friendly and nice and cordial out there and I think a lot of people just don't necessarily

39:07

Nowadays in our culture we have everyone wanting to assume that as you're saying all cops this is something it's an issue with every police officer if we really look at the percentage of officer of bad shootings or poor uses of force

39:23

It is so dramatically low But the issue is nowadays some of the people who are these advocates for some of these radical policies

39:31

They don't care what the numbers say. They don't care what what's what the statistics are They have their mind made up and there's nothing you or I or anyone else who who may agree with us could say to Convince them.

39:43

Otherwise, I've noticed that it's all based on one story and you know What happened to George Floyd or or something like that?

39:51

And then it's so one of the things that's controversial right now It's the chokehold thing and I was actually

39:56

I pulled up a little Map or something. I think it was USA Today put it out and was listing all the different Cities that have banned chokeholds and of course,

40:06

New York is the most prominent one on that list What do you think of chokeholds? Is there another is there a non -lethal way to kind of Put someone to sleep or stop them without using a chokehold

40:19

Well, I was a defensive tactics instructor here in Vegas. So and I'm a jujitsu guy

40:26

I'm a martial arts guy. I pretty much done martial arts since I was 17, so This is an area and let me

40:32

I'm gonna use myself as an example there's and Just to clarify terminology when we are the term chokehold a lot of times we're thinking we're thinking of cutting someone's airway off and that but they're also neck holds restraints

40:50

Quote -unquote chokes that are used where it stops the flow of blood and that could put someone to sleep pretty quick We have one that is known pretty much nationwide called the

41:03

LV and are the lateral vascular neck restraint and it's prime is

41:09

Primarily where the pressure is applied to the carotid arteries. There's no pressure Applied to their person's airway and it could take a few seconds to put someone out.

41:20

I have used that technique on Dozens of occasions never had one problem not one problem

41:30

I guarantee you that if we look back and we examine the amount of times that officers have used that hold

41:40

Over the years where there have been zero problems It would probably be that the ratio would probably be ridiculous

41:48

I'm the George Floyd incident was was a tragedy No question about it the

41:55

Eric Garner situation tragic but at the same time Let's one a couple of bad occasions where the tactic was used and Even though and in neither one of those cases were those words were was it where there was actual

42:14

LV and R was used Yeah with a Chauvin. He had his knee on the guy's neck and in with Eric the

42:21

Eric Garner case He he had more of a chokehold on them But if the tactics and techniques are applied better You can have a much greater success rate

42:31

What I believe is that officers should have more training this whole concept of take away because a lot of officers go

42:38

You're given very basic techniques. You're giving you're given very basic tactics to go out on the streets and Policing streets fight crime.

42:48

Here you go. You have to recertify Two three four times a year

42:53

Where the certification may last two hours and then you're expected to go out there and police me personally.

43:01

I Took my job. I understood the potential dangers of the job enough to where I trained all the time

43:08

I practice I stayed in shape. I went to the range on my own own time

43:13

I reached in my pocket and sought out additional training to be better But not every because here in Vegas we we were paid pretty well

43:21

But not everyone has that opportunity if you're policing in the example, we use earlier Mayberry You may not have the opportunity or to go somewhere and train

43:30

I do believe that and it kind of piggybacks a little bit off on the topic when we're talking about police reform

43:36

Police changes which are necessary. I think there should be a higher There should be some level of a national standard to some degree some degree.

43:44

Well, it's funny Because police reform that's being suggested is defunding the police in so many of these areas

43:51

What you're suggesting is probably more funding for training opposite kind of a reform absolutely, because a lot and a lot of people aren't seeing that they aren't seeing the fact that there are that I use it,

44:05

I like to make the comparison between The school system the public school system and the police you see problems in this with the police

44:14

What are people saying defund the police the system is broken. It's not working which is

44:21

Which I think is is ridiculous, but you look at these same people oftentimes

44:27

When it comes to the public school system Things that the standards have only seemed to gotten what have gotten worse over the years

44:34

We're producing more our kids are more and more ignorant. It seems to be the case But yeah, what's the solution on that side?

44:41

Oh give them more money Is the police union not working for you guys Exactly.

44:47

It must be must be the case. So I think that if if the truck if there's

44:53

Defunding is silly keep the funding or if not more and allocate it in the right ways.

45:00

I think that cops should Want the military style minimize that as far as in the initial training

45:09

Academy Increase the ability and opportunity the training in the area of communication and de -escalating and Give the officers more tools physical tools teach them how to have teach them skills

45:23

The fact that I was proficient in when it came to defensive tactics martial arts training and I was really confident in that area and in kept myself in pretty good shape that that Kept me from escalating to to the point to where I felt the

45:43

Necessity or the need to use deadly force because I knew I can handle myself in a high percentage of Encounters.

45:51

I didn't I'm not one them MMA. I wasn't a UFC fighter by any stretch of the imagination

45:57

But I'm never had my behind kicked and I've been in plenty of bad Situations where I was able to take care of my business and I didn't and by God's grace.

46:06

I never had to kill anyone I've drawn my gun countless times, but never had to fire at anyone never had to kill anyone

46:13

But but I know that there were guys that had if there were in my my same in some of those same situations

46:19

They would have been they would have felt the need to shoot and kill because they were lacking physically they hadn't there's their their

46:29

Defensive or fighting skills were extremely limited. So they're

46:35

So there need what they would consider a threat would be very different from what I would

46:40

Because of the lack of training because of the differences in skill and size and strength and things like that So I think that training needs to be there needs to be an evolution in training.

46:50

It shouldn't be a defunding It should evolved to a greater degree where cops have a greater set of skills and I said and I believe that if you were to make a physical fitness standard for And then you give cops the a you have a higher standard you train them in Brazilian jiu -jitsu so they can control people you would see a reduction a continual reduction in the amount of deadly force shootings or Confrontations that we see each and every year.

47:18

I think that's a brilliant. I mean you have too much common sense. That's the problem I want to transition this into the kind of the future of policing because this is an excellent springboard here some people are concerned and I would say

47:30

I Have been concerned in the past about this when I see especially small towns getting you know armored vehicles and Automatic weapons or semi -automatic.

47:42

Well, they should have semi -automatic weapons I'm trying to think my mind is fuzzy now because it's been a few years since I've seen news stories on this but some of these concerns

47:51

I know are coming back that police departments are becoming militarized and having military grade equipment and and again,

47:58

I can see that in areas where You have a high crime rate. Maybe you need more equipment in small towns

48:05

I don't see the need for it quite as much but Do you see police the police becoming more militarized in some areas as I mean?

48:15

I know there's calls to defund them. But it you know crime is gonna rise inevitably and I People are concerned that maybe military style tactics will be used.

48:25

What do you think about that? You talk about it primarily equipment. Yeah equipment. Yeah, I guess equipment is what

48:32

I'm talking about tactics you have to understand that If we're talking about military military style tactics every almost every day

48:41

I would have to do some semblance of a room clearing when I was a cop Yeah, especially when

48:46

I police certain areas you have to go in and make entry with your gun drawn and you have to do it safely where you put yourself at a

48:55

Where you minimize the amount of the potential threat for you So military style tactics and policing they go hand in hand when it comes down to tactics when it comes down to equipment

49:05

It's a tough call because and this is my perspective and This is another thing that I spoke on in one of my recent videos where I critique black lives matter when they mentioned the demilitarized demilitarizing the police

49:18

I say that I Think it's we have such a short attention span and short memory here in the

49:26

United States Because how quick it wasn't that long ago with Columbine post nightclub

49:35

The North Hollywood shoot bank robbery. Yeah The the

49:41

October 1st shooting here in Vegas You had people with high -level weapons automatic weapons who a cop with a

49:53

Shotgun and a hand in their handgun is gonna have a whole lot of trouble that whole

49:59

North Hollywood shootout that changed the game on such a drastic tremendous level because these cops were unprepared to deal with the level of threat you had to armor to well armed

50:18

Suspects with body armor who had a couple of a K's and They wreaked havoc on those on that police department on LAPD one of the biggest police agencies in the nation

50:28

We have it on those guys and it took a SWAT team coming in there to finally take the guy down with automatic weapons with the proper level of body armor and gear

50:40

My mindset is we have to remember we're in the 21st century Terrorism is a real issue

50:46

America is that is a greater is has so many enemies externally and as we as we see lately internally and People are liable to do almost anything.

50:59

There's a huge black market out there for weapons explosives so Do I think that this whole move towards militarizing?

51:08

The police is a is necessarily a bad thing. I don't I do not I don't think so at all because there's so many different threats

51:17

That we face Nowadays, I think cops need those weapons

51:22

I think that tactically there's some things that can change tactically and some better decisions as far as how these some of these

51:30

Some of this equipment is utilized, but I would say overall I think that the day and age that we're living in just because you live in small -town

51:37

USA doesn't mean that you can't have a a Unabomber or someone like that lurking in the midst somewhere.

51:44

It's possible. Of course, you know As you say this, I mean you sound like a guy too from our conversation.

51:51

You had mentioned something about an armed populace I don't remember exactly what you said, but you're you believe citizens should also have the right to defend themselves and absolutely

51:59

Yeah So so a combination then really of police who are equipped for these kinds of threats and citizens who are ready for them as well

52:06

Would probably be the ideal No question situation I What about so when people we will call for where they say that's the police are getting too militarized and then

52:15

I see videos on My social media of just what was the last week in Chicago a bunch of police?

52:22

I think they were surrounding a Christopher Columbus Monument and they're getting pummeled. I don't know if you saw this video And and I looked at that video and I mean they they're just having glass and all sorts of things thrown at them

52:33

I think some guys had some bloody heads afterward and they're not doing anything They're just standing there as targets

52:39

We're gonna look at that and I wonder who wants to become a police and and I have no doubt the media has to be

52:45

Part of this. They don't want to be shown in the media as you know Responding with force because they know that's the clip that'll probably be shown

52:52

But if you're a young kid and you want to grow up to be a police officer I feel like that would damper your spirit.

52:57

Are you seeing a Problem with recruitment or do you know of a problem? Yeah, I've done some research on that topic and I've heard that nationwide in a lot of places that the

53:08

There's been a 60 % reduction. This was last year in the year prior 60 % reduction in the amount of recruits

53:17

Eligible or good recruits that the police officers that a lot of police departments are seeing

53:23

Wow so It like just like you said when you see

53:28

I watched that whole I watched a full extended clip of that whole incident in Chicago And you see people sneaking up in the background and they're dumping out water frozen water bottles that's what they were throwing at these cops and one guy had a fractured or orbital bone as a result of that you had 48 cops injured 18 of them had to go to the hospital.

53:50

One of them had a fractured kneecap You see that you see what's going on all you have to do is just look scroll through Instagram or Facebook and you see some of the clips that are taking place in New York on a nightly basis or in a lot of unfortunately in a lot of these other liberal towns

54:09

Why would any people getting cussed at? Getting in your face Talking crazy and you can't do anything because or even if you look at the

54:18

Brayshaw Brook shooting in Atlanta Which I think the officer was completely justified in doing what he did

54:25

All right, you take an incident like that, especially if you look at the letter of the law in Georgia, you take an incident like that and then you say a cop who's looking at murder charges

54:37

You combine those and then which you're some of your maybe some of your favorite rappers or some of your favorite actors or vilifying

54:44

The police who wants to be a cop? Yeah, I'm telling you if I was still working right now

54:50

I probably probably would have left or I would have been working on my paperwork to get out of there We need to bring back

54:56

Ridiculous reruns of lethal weapon to get them back in Danny Glover and Mill Gibson can do it

55:05

Yeah, man that I Suspected that I didn't realize it was 60 % of a drop -off and this is a year ago.

55:12

I can imagine 2021 comes around they look at the statistics for 2020

55:18

There's got to be it's got to be even higher than that. So is the Ferguson effect real then?

55:24

Oh, absolutely Yeah use oh we see the crime rate in places like New York, there are some weekends where certain aspects of the crime rate has increased by up to over 300 % 200 % birth homicides up Robberies up burglaries are up all over the nation and all of these towns that have advocated for defunding or Abolishing the police you see an increase in Chicago increase in crime so and why is that because being proactive nowadays as a cop is almost career suicide

56:07

You are putting yourself in a position You answer the call for service you get there

56:12

And I don't want I don't want to make this video out to be me just be simply being a cop apologist

56:21

Because I understand that there are problems out there within the police community That there are bad cops.

56:28

A lot of people say to 1 % or less than 1 % I don't know what the numbers are, but there are cases where officers have kept their mouths shut because they don't want to they don't want to Shake shake rock the boat

56:42

They saw bad things taking place and and I've been in I was in a situation early on in my career

56:49

I have a video on my Channel called police brutality Where I did give a full presentation

56:56

It's about 45 minutes long Separating fact from fiction and the one of the first things

57:01

I speak on was my first day of field training Where I saw an officer my field training officer

57:09

Beat the mess out of some guy For no reason just because of the fact that he didn't like the way he looked at him

57:15

And he ran his mouth a little bit and I was forced to be in a dilemma Here I was just hiring on my former job

57:22

I made seven bucks an hour and then I'm hiring on with a job that more than doubles my pay instantly and I'm forced to be in a situation where I have to have a moral where my morals are being challenged

57:35

What do I do? Do I sit back and I not say anything at all? Do I join in or do

57:41

I say something? Ultimately, I said something I could not sit and this was even before I was saved

57:47

Like I was saying I knew I knew about God, but I didn't have a solid true relationship with him and I was faced with that moral dilemma of what to do and it was a heart and I really wrestled with that in my head and I was 26 27 years old at the time so I can imagine and I'm not making excuses for anybody

58:09

But there are issues within there can be issues within policing when it comes down to the decision -making

58:16

That officer makes because of peer pressure but when we get set back and we so I just wanted to say that but going back to your primary question about the

58:27

Alec the is there a Ferguson effect or not? There is a definite factor that the police officers have been so vilified these days where the

58:41

Primary emphasis has been on those few bad encounters or tragic or evil or horrific encounters and No one even looks at the vast vast majority of positive interactions that the police have police officers have so if you're a cop out there and you're just trying to do the right thing a

59:04

Lot of cops are like man. Why should I even bother? I'll wait till they call me and place me on a call and then if there's a 9 -1 -1 call that comes in I'll go to that and I'll address it and even then you got to be leery

59:16

Well, we believe that the police serve a function which is a function for true justice there the

59:23

Government does not bear. It says the sword in vain. That is force. That's lethal force and What can people be doing especially

59:31

Christians who listen to this podcast to support pray for help

59:38

Yeah, just I guess offset some of the negative Movements that are trying to defund and de -platform police.

59:48

I Think you nailed it at first as far as this stay in prayers They prayed up keep our focus primarily understanding that God is ultimately in control of everything that's going on None of this is taking it taking him by surprise

01:00:01

Is it being that if you see an officer sometimes just offering a nice word of encouragement can go a long way it's it's a very thankless job and the reality the reality is we

01:00:15

I know there are a lot of believers who believe that Christians shouldn't get involved in elections and things like that and people have their own conscience and they have to go where they feel comfortable but you have

01:00:26

Right now this silent minority the vocal minority is who's being heard and A lot of people don't want to interact and get involved in a lot of these matters

01:00:38

Because they don't want to be looked on and viewed as being a bigot They don't want to be called a hater racist or whatever the case may be

01:00:46

I'm sorry there. I think there are too many things at stake within in our country to sit back and remain silent anymore

01:00:52

They're way too many things at stake our freedoms to a large degree are at stake if the cops are abolished or defunded and you we're already seeing the the repercussions of that across our nation is

01:01:09

Your personal safety worth it just to sit back and do nothing say nothing because you don't Want somebody blocking you on Facebook?

01:01:16

Is it really that serious it does is being popular or like that important to you or would you rather be in a beat?

01:01:25

I'm just very thankful that we live in a country that affords the freedoms that we have because if you look across the world

01:01:30

But place like China different parts of Africa You see there a lot most of the world doesn't have they don't have the freedoms and opportunities that we have

01:01:40

I think people just need to be consistent and we need to be be willing to Take a few licks here and there and I'm not talking about physically

01:01:48

But be willing to take a few hits and being called a couple of ugly names How if anyone thinks is easy is how it's tough out there imagine being a black

01:02:01

Christian conservative Former police officer. Oh, man about talking against Black Lives Matter and talking about some of these topics

01:02:09

You must get other black folks. You must be called names You must be called names

01:02:16

But you know what? Honestly, I just think that My mindset is truth matters to me more than anything else

01:02:24

At my heart. I am more of an introverted guy I'm not a guy out there wanting them if you watch some of my earlier

01:02:32

YouTube videos, man. I look ridiculous, you know and I do a Tremendous.

01:02:38

I think I do a pretty good job of editing because a lot of times I sound like a bumbling idiot Go the course of some of my videos and I chop them up pretty good

01:02:47

So it flows a whole lot better, but I'm a guy who kind of likes my space. I like staying at home but when it comes down to the issues when

01:02:55

I see the state and the Progression that this country path this country is heading down man,

01:03:03

I'm telling you for the I I Wonder I wonder how the non -believer gets deals with that the non -believers who are may have more conservative values

01:03:13

There they must just be so dependent on the government and their gun Like that must be it because ultimate is like where's their hope?

01:03:21

We're not true hope we know that as Christians. We know that this this this World is not our all it's not our home

01:03:28

So we have that hope but just as in it just as to sum up what we're saying Just offer some encouragement stay prayed up first and foremost understand that God is sovereign he's in control and Be active if you if you feel led

01:03:46

Legislatively get out there and get involved let your voice be heard and share some of this information some of the info that's out there and so let people know that because there's so many lies that are being told so many lies that are being told and Somebody has to share the truth.

01:04:05

Amen. Yeah, well Eric. Thank you so much for joining me and Taking part in this long -form discussion because I think it does help people

01:04:13

Just to hear it from you with the experience you have as a police officer if you want to find out more about Eric's podcast you can go to code red conversations on YouTube and check out his channel

01:04:27

And I'm sure there'll be more content coming. In fact, I think it might have been the video you sent me Eric was helpful about Making sure that there's not overgrown plants in your yard because criminals could hide in there and I was like, oh, that's actually a good point

01:04:41

I never really thought about that. So a lot of helpful practical information. So thank you once again,