Eric Muldrow on Police Reform and the Future of Policing

Testimony, Conviction, and Conversion to Christ

Welcome to Conversations That Matter podcast. I am John Harris and I am joined today with a special guest Eric Muldrow from Code Red Conversations. You can check out his channel on YouTube and I'm assuming Eric, do you have a podcast as well?

Code Red Conversations or where can people find you? No, no podcast. Not yet. Anyway, they can primarily find me again as you said on YouTube. That's where I do the The majority of my content where I create the majority of my content.

But I'm also pretty active on Facebook under Code Red Conversations or an Instagram under the same name or you can find me on Facebook just under Eric Muldrow. You'll see a picture of me Standing at a podium looking trying to look all official and whatnot.

Yeah, well what I want to do today is and this is gonna be an interesting conversation for My listeners at least because we talked a lot about the social justice movement and evangelicalism. And of course right now there is I'm just gonna say it and you can say it if you want to but I'm not putting The words in your mouth.

I think there's a war on the police right now and We were talking before we we started recording about your testimony and how you became a Christian. So we're gonna first talk about kind of your testimony Christian testimony and then how you became a police officer and we're gonna talk about this war on the police.

We're gonna talk about Black Lives Matter systemic racism. The future of policing that should be interesting. So what's right what's on the horizon? Ahead for as far as crime prevention and the militarized police people are concerned about these things.

And so I'm just looking forward to it. So let's let's pick up where we left off before we started recording. Eric tell me a little bit about yourself.

Yeah, as we were saying as we were talking. Before we started recording. I was basically raised in a in a Christian home. It's really weird we had a weird dynamic. My in which I don't want to I don't want it to have that take up too much of the conversation.

But my dad didn't take us to church. He would always go to church, but he would never take us kids to church. Which is a whole another conversation. Until we moved to South Carolina and then I was about 16 or so Actually moved.

I was about 14 and he wanted us to start going to church with him then. But I really didn't want to go. I just did not want to go to church. I was like, I remember distinctly when I was little asking my dad.

I think I might have been six years old I remember asking him Can he take us to church with him and he literally said I'm not taking you bad kids to church with me. Which like blows my mind you would think if your kids don't know how to act and you're a Christian.

You're a deacon in the church. You want to bring your kids along with you so that they can hear the word and learn how to live, right? But anyway, but it wasn't until I was about 16 17 years old where I just I had a desire where I wanted to start Going so I ended up going but even then I had never really I had a profession of faith for many years and I was very open about my faith at work.

Because my law enforcement career pretty much extends to working in the prison system working in the county jail here in Vegas patrolling the streets here in Las Vegas as a as a cop and so I have made a I had a profession of faith and I would actually argue and debate as far as apologetics go with inmates and some of my fellow officers and I but at the same time I was living such a hypocritical life.

There was such consistent and deep sin in my life and It wasn't until about I was 37 or so where the Lord really got a hold of me. I remember I was we were saying this before the video started. That I was clicking through the channels and I came across The way the master on TBN with Ray Comfort and I saw them on the streets doing witnessing.

So I stopped because I loved the apologetic aspect of it. So I stopped and I just was listening and then I just fell in love with the show with the program. So I watch it any every time there was a new episode will come up it was.

It was a few months after hearing that and listening and to where the Lord used by his spirit just started really what the weight of my sin started weighing so heavily on my heart and I was truly convicted and I recall I can't say exactly when and where I was I was saved but I can remember just falling on my knees crying out to the Lord and in seeking his face in forgiveness and understanding the fact that I'm a sinner and that I didn't want to stand before him and be in Face his wrath.

I wanted to be one of his I wanted to be his and And man, I'm telling you that Radically changed my life. It did the transformation in my life. It wasn't like I was a quote-unquote bad dude bad person.

But just a conviction and just seeking him and it was a process over some years after that and That continued to this day where the Lord just brought in front of me. Just some amazing Amazing godly man through history people.

I had never heard of I used to dine on TD Jake's and Joel Osteen as far as And Creflo dollar as far as people I used to listen to but just to God's grace. He opened the door from hearing weight watching the way of the master and the Lord using Ray's ministry to bring me the faith and repentance and faith just the doors that opened up to sound the biblical preachers and teachers who helped me understand the Bible for the first time in my life and Man, it's just been such a crazy journey over the years and he he restored my family man I'm telling you we can go on and on about what how radical a transformation was in my life.

Yeah, wow, that's that is great. I love hearing that and I think I speak on your behalf. I speak this for myself though. Anyone listening who wants to know how to be in a right relationship with the Lord you can reach out to me.

I'm sure you can reach out to Eric and we would love to introduce you to to Jesus. So, how's that for? Starting off the whole conversation on a very high point. I don't know how it gets better now, but it can't frankly.

It's just downhill but Policing a little bit and and hopefully weave into the conversation a bit. Christianity and Biblical principles of justice. I'd like to hear from you as well. What made you decide to become a police officer in Las Vegas.

Of all places, you know.

A Career in Law Enforcement and the Call to Police Work

I've always wanted to be I can't say always but for a long time I wanted to be a cop even as a kid before I joined the army. I wanted to Go in as a military police officer. But when I went in there was a I would have to wait like six months after I graduated high school.

Now I'm old man, you know, I'm 50 years old just turned 50 this year so we're going back to 88 when I graduated high school and the movie lethal weapon Made me want to be a cop with Mel Gibson and Danny Glover.

I fell in love with that movie I wanted to be he was so bad in that movie. I was like, man I want to be that guy. Yeah, and I wanted to be a cop so then I started a journey wanting to be a police officer, but like I was saying when I Went to join the army They told me I'd have to wait six months and I was like man, I want to get basic training I want to get all this mess over with so I end up going in as a medic.

But I always had the passion and desire to be in law enforcement. But then when I got out I went I moved to Indiana and worked as a corrections officer and one of the state prisons out there and I could have I have a Probably tell you a thousand stories just based on that experience.

But then I was pretty much stayed on a path of law enforcement pretty much from 19 and in 1992 all the way up until 2014 when I retired there was a break there when I moved to Las Vegas and I did security For about a year one in one in a couple of local casinos but then I hired on with the Las Vegas Metro Police Department as a corrections officer in the county jail in 96 and then I transferred out to the streets in 2006 and I finished out my career as a patrol officer.

So you have a wide-ranging career.

You've seen a lot of different aspects of crime prevention criminal justice. I want to ask you then. Is there a war on police right now in this country? Do you think? Oh, no question.

The War on Police and the Logic of Defunding

No question about it. It is and I've seen this brewing and developing for some years now and I'm not saying anything that anyone who is reasonable and Tries to be rational Hasn't hasn't said before. But it's been so prevalent it especially in light of how everything the the vilification now.

Let me backtrack a little bit now. I'm honest and open enough to understand that there's an ugly history with law enforcement here in our country in. Particularly amongst the ethnic groups black folks in particular.

I'm not a fool. I've had my own personal experiences with police officers before I became one that weren't good and Growing up in the 70s in New Jersey. A lot of people think that living up north is always it was such a haven of peace.

Love and tranquility, but it was no it wasn't like that at all. Hmm, I dealt with more racism growing up in New Jersey than I did when we moved to South Carolina. Wow later it no not even on the same level.

It was such blatant bigotry. Partiality however, you want to term it there was it was so it was to such a ugly degree. Now greater we were it was the early 70s. We're talking so we're talking about not far removed from the civil rights movement but.

It I want to ask I want to interject real quick. So you had you had negative experiences with police officers and you still wanted to become one that's interesting to me a little bit.

Yeah, I think because I my dad was. Like I was saying there's some weird dynamics going on with my family. My dad was 30 years older 32 years older than my mom. So and my dad was from South Carolina. Sumter, South Carolina as a matter of fact, I've been there.

So oh. Yeah, so he died in 2003. He was 93 years old so. You figure in all those years of living he was born in 1910 in in the South. So all those years all those years of living. He had he wasn't always the sweetest and fondest of white people.

But at the same time he never taught us to hate. He never taught us to hate and even though he had his skeletons and his issues as we all have. As just being in this flesh this sinful flesh. He he gave us he planted seeds in us foundational roots as far as.

Understanding who people are and not hating having hate in your heart. So I think that had a played a big role in me Understanding that and then I had a lot of friends also a lot of friends in school white kids.

Who didn't look at me weird who didn't mistreat me? Between bad experiences and then also had some pretty good experiences.

So you were able to separate the office of police officer and the function of the police from the bad eggs? Who gave you a hard time? Absolutely, which a lot of people are having a hard time with that today.

And and it's it seems like it's because of this concept which we hear all the time that It's systemically racist. The police are systemically racist. It's been that way for a long time. It's still that way and so that means even if you're someone like yourself who was a black man who wore the badge.

You know wore the uniform put on the badge. You're part of this systemic white supremacy just because you're part of the system, right? Am I understanding that that correctly then that's the perception we get from like black lives matter and social justice groups.

Absolutely.

Systemic Racism, Social Justice, and the Christian View of Sin

It's a popular mindset nowadays. It's all it's pretty much become mainstream that that that way of thinking. But my one of my big issues with that perspective is how consistent is that? We've all been in it now and I'm I have no I don't.

I take no joy in talking about some of the Topics that I discuss when I talk about the issues within the black community. I don't shout these problems out and celebrate them. I point them out because it's ignored.

Through through primarily through the mainstream media and a lot of these social social justice advocates. Don't really they they never want to talk about these things, but my big thing is let's be consistent with that.

Now we understand that there are issues within the black community the pie the disproportionate crime rate the disproportionate fatherless home rate, but yet at the same time if as a black person if I say If someone was to say, you know what?

I've had issues. I've seen the problem I've seen the things that some black folks have done and I've had issues with black people. Mom, I've been mistreated or whatever the case may be and I don't trust any of them if let's just say that's the terminology that's Person a white person said who had a bad interaction with a black person if they use that Everyone was well, I'm like you racist.

Like how could you say something like that? How could you judge a whole group of people based on the actions of a few? But yet at the same time a lot of these same people have no problem whatsoever flipping flipping that around and turning around and pointing out the problems within a small group of police officers how they may have been mistreated and Attempting to paint the whole group.

What as being guilty of the same mindset same culture. So my big issue is being be consistent if that's how if that's your perspective. The white guy who got beat up or Bullied as a kid by by some black kids or whoever if they turn around and they use that same argument.

Don't call him a bigot. Don't call him racist. Don't call him a hater. You should be equally as understanding as you would for as you would expect for someone who who had your perspective.

Yeah, I could not agree more. I wanted to pick your brain on something just to see. If this is just a an idea that I have philosophically speaking, I guess I had a guy reach out to me. Couple days. Well, maybe now it's two weeks ago or so who he got kind of the experience you just shared he was a bullied white kid and Living in an area I guess predominantly Where black people lived I'm not sure exactly where but he had gotten beaten up by black people growing up and so he had gone to Southeastern which is a seminary that I graduated from and Southeastern is very much on the social justice train and When they when we started hearing things negative about systemic racism and the police and so forth.

And everything else attached to that. He was suspicious of it just because of his own experience and and you know, he he was very clear with me. He's like, I'm not racist. I don't hold anything against those people.

I they're just they're people we have sin. Everyone has sin. It's not a black thing a white thing a Hispanic thing. I go down the list is just a human thing and that's where he was coming from. And and I thought you know, he's right that's the Christian understanding that every single demographic is capable of sin including racism and and What seems to be happening right now?

This is what I want to get your thoughts on is is instead where we're kind of taking this concepts of systemic racism. In policing or other institutions and we're kind of passing the buck on to them and saying no the blame for this is society.

It's not people. It's not a sinful heart that does sinful things. It's it's a system it's something external and if we can all kind of change our environment so defund the police or somehow read I don't know do some kind of a new training or reform in the police departments.

Then then we will have I guess a utopia or we'll get rid of this problem. And I think as a Christian that's where I have a hard time is is thinking that you're never gonna get away from the sin that we all have inside and Passing the book on to an external system and saying it's the environment.

That's the problem. It's not our hearts. It's just gonna be a recipe for disaster. Do you do you see what I'm seeing on that? Do you agree?

Oh, I agree 100 It's funny. I was listening to a podcast yesterday yesterday as a matter of fact, and I'll probably just not name it just Just because I don't want to bring any extra attention on to it.

It probably it'll probably be easy to find once I speak on the title and I'll be a little vague about it, but they were basically talking about abolition abolishing the police not defunding but abolishing the police.

Wow, and it's a Quote-unquote Christian podcast. No way. 100 Quote-unquote Alec quote-unquote Christian podcast and they were having a conversation about abolishing abolishing the police now to be fair I listened to about 50 of it.

I didn't listen to the entire podcast and. There was one lady on there at least one lady on there who was one to give some pushback even though her worldview is. She's very much a social justice advocate.

She said some pretty crazy things over over the recent over in recent years. But there was a push to and and they used a lot of the terminology that you just used it was the system. You you you re-educate it was it was it was almost scary hearing some of the terminology that they were using re-educating people take people's guns away because there's so many guns out there and and you use it and allowed a community to come together and and and Provide security and I'm sitting up here sitting up here listening to to this mess.

It illogical mess and you profess to be a Christian but yet at the same time you're going to Assume that this kumbaya we're going to come together hold hands and everything's gonna be okay. And it was one point that I brought up in one of my videos.

I critique black. I have two videos where I critique black lives matter. And one of the points I brought up was the fact that when I went into the hood To police these areas after some of the worst events after some of the worst events you could think of where somebody literally had their house shot up or their kid gunned down on the streets and you go in there as a police officer and you attempt to find out who did this and the pushback and the barriers that you have to face because for various reasons and I know a lot of times people are fearful of repercussions.

But sometimes it's just a hatred of the police. They don't want to give any information out how would these how do they expect this newfound way of it's not law enforcement of Civil peace of security.

How do they expect them? These these concepts these individuals to be able to go in and get the job done. What and and these are people who actually live in these areas there? They really want to emphasize that point they want people coming from these communities to provide Protection and if you have a biblical perspective on that, how can you assume that that won't be without a ton of problems?

Also, who's going to be the ones to overlooking and monitor and watch what these individuals do? Or It's just it lacks so much sense. These people don't think these thoughts. They don't think these ideas and concepts through.

I think you have a nail on the head with something with. The example you gave is and the word I you hear a lot is village you said community. But they want to they want to create a village of. This community that comes together and we won't need police and I mean it you almost want to sing John Lennon song.

Imagine. There's no countries. Imagine, you know, there's no police. There's no we're gonna take everyone's guns and somehow it's gonna be okay and and and the thing about that whole mindset is. It's it's not the police aren't their concern it it's it's not that they have a problem with police.

They have a problem that sounds like with any authority and they believe in this egalitarian utopia of some kind where and that's resting. On this assumption that men are good men if left to themselves are good and we're born into a world that corrupts us.

But if we if we just can get rid of those corrupting institutions. Then we're gonna be fine and as Christians to hear a Christian podcast do that or a Christian Church. I was just reading an article about Matt Chandler's Church, which I just thought I don't know if you've seen stuff from there.

But like anti-police stuff that I just couldn't believe you know, these are guys that say that Mankind is sinful and needs Christ and then they come over here and they contradict that opinion. And so.

So anyway, I'm ranting but I wanted to hear from you. Are you surprised when you hear this kind of thing? I know that there are three big Christian leaders. I know that March with Black Lives Matter. Like is that kind of thing a surprise to you?

It was back in 2014 when 2015 when this stuff really started brewing. When you brought up Matt Chandler, for instance, I used to listen to him Me too routinely and I said I said Recommend him to my family and my kids could listen to him and I would have no concern over it.

But as the years have went by and I just started seeing this leftward shift. And now I couldn't even there was a time where I would say well Let me I would listen to the sermon first and then I would say hey guys check this out.

But but this was when I started seeing him shifting towards this social justice movement. But prior to that if I saw my daughter listening to Matt Chandler, I was like man Hey, I was I was thankful because he was he was solid.

But now I. And I'm not saying the man isn't saved. I'm not saying that he's not a Christian. But I'm saying that he is he is very so far off course. That to me he's dangerous that my honest opinion. He's dangerous in a lot of areas and he can lead people astray.

I'm not saying leaving people off the path of faith or I'm not making any type of claims like that. But this social justice movement is so destructive. Potentially and in an actual in actuality, but as far as and Other people to be the onion wheel a I can go on and on men.

Eric Mason's men that I used to listen to and just really really appreciate. I hope I'm not being problematic.

I'm bringing. Oh, yeah. Look, this is what we found this podcast. We name a lot of those names. So That's fine. No, I I mean the three guys I'll just say the three guys that I'm thinking of who are marching with black lives matter Ed Stetzer David Platt and to be the end of wheel a they were public about it.

And so they be the end of wheel a apparently was one of the organizers in DC of the March. So I. Here's the hook though. Here's the thing. It all starts with well, there's police or their systemic racism in the police.

Mm-hmm. I want to hear from you. Is that true or in the year 2020 you've rubbed shoulders with a lot of policemen. I mean your your ministry and your. The focus on your YouTube channel is a lot of helpful information on policing and Preparing yourself for you know, or hedging yourself against criminals, etc.

Do you see that do you see systemic racism in police? In other words our police departments characterized by this or how do you see that?

Not at all. I don't see systemic racism as in in the root of it. What I see are Individual problems that may sprout out sprout up pop up and. Is there such a thing as a racist cop? Absolutely, just like there's a such a thing as a racist dentist attorney Doctor any field you're gonna you're gonna have individuals in there who have biases and Dislikes towards people who don't look like them every field.

But when you look at policing at its core you have Oftentimes especially you take a city like Chicago or any major city or even minor small city. But let's let's take a city like Chicago. You have men and women Going into communities these high crime areas and that's something that's often overlooked.

Is that there's such an interaction with Blacks coming in contact with the police. It's not primarily because anyone's out to get black folks. Because there's an estimate anywhere from a half a million to two million cops here in the United States those are some of the numbers that I've heard over over the years and if there was a a Open season on the black man or black people and you have to you have two million people two million cops and then you have a system a whole government system that At that supporting them we there would be a whole lot more than 15 or 19 unarmed black men gunned down or black black folks that were killed as.

When we look at last year, there'd be a whole lot more than that going on what we often oftentimes overlooked is the fact that We have a lot of people a lot of white black brown Asian. You named the ethnic group?

Officers going into these communities and they are the main ones who are actually saving more black lives than anyone. Just a few days ago. I was listening to the police chief out of Chicago and He's a former chief that was in Chicago was it was in Dallas when the shooting took place back in think was 2015 or so over that 2016 2015 that the year escapes me exactly.

I think it was 2016, but it was a Probably 2015 anyway, but he was the same Sheriff that was that was running the Dallas PD at the time. Now. He runs Chicago's Police Department he said that Just in the seven months that have went by roughly this year.

That Chicago the Chicago PD has taken over 5 ,000 guns off the streets over 5 ,000 guns off the streets. Wow. Now just imagine if the police were not there and This is the inner city Chicago we're talking about.

They say the suburbs all the nice areas were while the white folks are living the this is the the inner city imagine if those cops weren't there and those 5 ,000 guns were still on the streets and as bad as things have been this year and every year pretty much in Chicago.

Just imagine how horrific that would be when you have people out there running these Basically ruling and running these streets and if you so if you remove this these so-called Racist cops if you take them off the streets who's gonna be out there protecting these citizens.

Who are who will be at the the will of these criminals? So this whole concept of the the racist system in law enforcement to me, it's it's Insane and those who who use that as an argument man, it concerns me with the fact that they just oftentimes just want to completely overlook the.

Issue of crime in a lot of these areas and they don't have an alternative. It sounds like it. So one of the things that I've heard and it's Different looks different in different places and most people don't have specifics when they say this is we should just root.

We're not radical. We don't want to get rid of the police, but we should reform the police. Do you think there's are there are reforms helpful reforms that should be put in place or what do you. What do you think about that?

Police Reform, Training, and the Need for Better Standards

Oh, absolutely. I've.

I've spoken about some of these issues in my opinion on My youtube channel and on my face and just some random Facebook posts just off the top of my head. I think that change is a needed thing. Let me back up a little bit and I don't want to lose sight of the main question here.

But if we looked at the history of law enforcement If we just go if we go from the 60s until now we have seen some radical Changes that have taken place just when we look at the data and the numbers. Well, let me answer your question real quick.

And then hopefully when I get it, I'll get opportunity. There's some numbers that I'd like to read off. Just please. Yeah, just to share with your audience but Me for instance I like I think that there's a need in the police Academy for somewhat of a military style.

Initially because it's such a challenging job. It could be so difficult. But at the same time, I think that it's problematic because let's say you go through a 20-week police Academy. And you're getting yelled at and you're getting forced to do push-ups and people screaming at you.

And you're getting disciplined when you make mistakes and then after the Academy is done. Send you out to the streets and then you're expected to be courteous to the person who. Who you come in contact with and one of the biggest complaints at least here in Las Vegas with our internal affairs one of the biggest biggest complaints that citizens have that citizens often have or had with officers was discourtesy cops being rude and If in you so my mindset was always.

Perhaps the first half of the Academy should be tough more military military style as far as discipline goes. To make sure that you can handle the stresses on the job. But then after that You eliminate that aspect of it and you make it more of a classroom setting because you want people to understand these officers or potential officers to understand that you have to go out into these communities and interact with people and.

You don't and everyone doesn't. Just because you're a cop and you're dealing with someone doesn't mean that they're a criminal or they in that gives you and it doesn't. Give you a right to be a jerk because it is an issue.

There is an issue in that in law enforcement because there's some people get Hungry or they let their power go to their head. But it's what we term in law enforcement as the 50-pound bad syndrome. Their badges becomes like 50 pounds you got all that you might have been Punked out as a kid or bullied or whatever case may be now you got the badge and I got the weight of the whole Police department behind you it can't power can corrupt.

Yeah, that's a very real issue but at the same time There are so many systems in place to keep officers in check. Now you have the public everybody in their mom has a camera phone. You have the citizens review boards.

You have internal affairs. You have your direct line supervision. You have your you have your co-workers. Here in Vegas. We had a policy of truthfulness at all times if you were caught lying. You're gone.

Your job is gone. There was no leeway about it and Then you're talking about the local investigators. You're talking about state level Investigators you're talking about Nationwide you have the Department of Justice that can step in if they find an agency Has abused their power.

So you have a ton of checks and balances when it comes to police and it comes to law enforcement in general. So there have been changes that have taken place you hear a lot of people black lives matter love to spout out every year the cops kill a thousand people and Things and it happens every year and things aren't changing.

No, that's just a lie. That is just a flat-out lie. There are there's I'm not saying that cops don't kill people every year. But to say that the number has basically remained the same over the years that's a lie people forget the fact that there are criminals out there who actually Want to do people harm and you have cut you have almost two million cops making nearly four hundred million interactions with the public.

Addressing criminals on a hot on a very consistent basis bad things are going to happen. Somebody's gonna come in contact with those police officers who does who who doesn't want to go back to jail who hates cops.

Who's evil or who's who's violently mentally ill or he's under the influence of some substance to where he becomes a Threat to life or substantial bodily harm to that officer. Is it someone else and it may force that officer to have to take that individual's life?

That's the reality that a lot of people don't want to face. There's ugliness out there and it's crazy how many Christians get caught up in that mindset.

Policing, Force, and the Reality of Dangerous Encounters

Yeah, yeah, wow, I couldn't agree more with what you're saying that and and You know, I don't know if you've seen you probably have the show Andy Griffith from back in. Yeah, so I think you know, there's everyone wishes well most people wish I wish that you know.

Every place could be in a way like Mayberry, you know that Andy and you know. He just he doesn't even have to carry a gun with them because he can talk people out of whatever Mischief that they want to involve themselves in one of the things that I've noticed.

I've lived in North Carolina, California Virginia and New York most of my life has been in New York and The worst interactions I've had with police officers have been in New York. I actually My audience doesn't know this and you're hearing this for the first time I slugged a police officer in the face when I was 14 years old in a Boy Scout uniform now this I Now everyone's gonna want to know the rest of the story and I can't have time to give the whole story.

But I was selling Boy Scout popcorn, you know Girl Scouts do cookies Boy Scouts do popcorn and this police officer came I was walking our church border to there was a school on the other side I was walking from the school where I was selling popcorn to the church.

It was like 830 at night and This police officer came no lights Or anything stopped right in front of me. It was dark I didn't know who it was and didn't identify himself came out and grabbed me and just said get in the car.

That's the only thing I heard though. I slugged him and I ran and then he came after me a big wealth and You know he had to get my parents together and everything and he said he could take me to juvenile hall was trying to intimidate me and I you know, my parents said apologize and I said I was 14 I said, why should I my mom kicked me and I said, I'm sorry and And that was it.

But I remember after that I was scared. I thought the police were just out to get me. And I think he felt stupid, you know this he thought that there was drug screwed up there was drug-related activity.

He was a young guy like really young. He probably fresh out of the Academy and And I've been you know, I remember dating my wife. We I go through this very liberal town. It's college town in New York.