Child Sacrifice: Should Women Who Murder Their Unborn Children Be Drawn and Quartered? Part 2

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Welcome to Bible Bast where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry. We're your hosts, Harrison Kerrig and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we seek to answer the age -old question, should women who murder their unborn children be drawn and quartered, part two?

Now, obviously this is the second episode that we're doing on abortion, and like I said last week,

I just had a lot more questions that I really wanted to get to and give them justice, give us time to talk through them, and Tim, for you to answer a lot of them and not feel rushed, or this episode be a four -hour long episode.

So we're going to continue our discussion on abortion and just talk through some more areas of discussion about this that we didn't really get to cover, and really

I just wanted to start, Tim, by clarifying something that we didn't really clarify in the first episode.

We kind of alluded to this a few different ways but never really addressed it head -on.

One of the stories that you told as a part of a response to a question

I had asked you was you'd brought up a story about a young girl who I think was maybe 13, maybe 14, who was going with her mom to go get an abortion at an abortion clinic, and you told a story about how you told her mom that she didn't love her and they went away and they didn't go in that day.

One of the conclusions we came to in that first episode was that while no, women don't need to be drawn and quartered for getting an abortion, they do need to face capital punishment, meaning a death sentence from the government.

Now, in light of that idea, knowing that there are people out there who are as young as 13, probably 12, maybe even 11, who are either thinking about, they get into a situation where they're pregnant and they're either thinking about getting an abortion or they're being pressured to get an abortion, does that mean that these young girls who are doing the same exact act that the adults are doing, who we are saying do deserve the death penalty, are we saying that girls that are that young also are equally deserving of the same penalty?

I think the answer to that question is a little bit complicated by the fact that it seems like the vast majority of states are going to require some sort of parental involvement as it relates to minors in general.

So when we talk about a woman getting an abortion, one of the things to be clear about when we're talking about a woman getting an abortion, should she be drawn and quartered?

The topic of that is the answers that are given are related to essentially an adult woman.

That's the person that has in mind now. In general, the vast majority of women getting abortions anyways are going to be adult women.

That scenario of the 13 -year -old girl is a scenario that happens, but it's not necessarily a very frequent situation, but that kind of thing can happen.

But often in these kinds of discussions, it's that kind of girl who's been raped by a family member or something like that that's brought forward as the ultimate you -can't -punish -woman kind of card as far as that goes.

But then you think about the statistics in general. In the U .S., about 50 % of U .S.

women obtaining abortion are younger than 25%, and then about 33 % of all abortions are made up of women from 20 to 24 years old, and then teenagers are about 17%.

So there's a pretty wide range on the teenager one, but that scenario can happen. But when we're talking about capital punishment, we are talking about for adults.

Now, I think the situation of a teenager is a bit complicated because we do happen to live in the kind of society that is advancing the age of adulthood in somewhat of an arbitrary way to be higher and higher and higher, and so we don't really consider people to be adults until the age of 18, but then you have to be 21 years old to drink.

What is the laws related to tobacco? Is it the same, 21, or is it 18? I'm pretty sure tobacco is 18, but it might not be.

I might be wrong on that. Many a person has pointed out the absurdity of an 18 -year -old being able to go fight for his country but not be able to purchase alcohol as far as that goes.

And so we have some strange laws related to the age of an adult.

Now, I mean, for the Jews, the Jews thought that, and there's no age of adulthood in the

Bible per se, but there are some passages that are related to this, but the Jews thought that essentially a son or a daughter who reached the age of 13, they had their bar mitzvah or their bab mitzvah, and they are legally, at that point, considered a son or daughter of the

Torah. So their age of adulthood was much younger than we have today. And I think one of the things that's happened is, you know, adulthood is being delayed in terms of just practice and in terms of just our own perspective of things that we infantilize people for a great number of years.

But then it's one of those things that when you have, like, someone like Kyle Rittenhouse going and situations that happen with that, he's being tried as an adult because I think he was 17 years old at the time.

And so we, you know, there are certain situations that can happen where we think that even if someone's not a legal adult, they're morally capable and conscious as far as that goes.

And so I think we have a fairly complicated system of, and are related to a great variety of things.

And so I wouldn't want to say in some simplistic way in all scenarios that any woman who ever gets an abortion for any reason should be, you know, the subject of capital punishment.

However, and I'm thinking of just young women who are, young women who are very young, you know, that kind of thing, barely past the age of puberty who are, in some sense, being forced to get an abortion.

Now there's always moral agency that's going to kick in at a certain point anyways. And I'm not trying to say that a woman who's 13 years old whose parents tell her that if she doesn't get the abortion that she's going to be kicked out of her house without any recourse or anything else.

And they're taking her to it, taking her to go get it, and threatened with all sorts of threats.

I'm not trying to say that that kind of person in that kind of situation is not capable of making a moral choice.

But whatever's happening, there is some issues of coercion that's involved in that kind of scenario.

And that's a little bit more complicated than a 20 -year -old person who is going of their own accord to get an abortion kind of scenario.

So I think there's no simplistic answer to that kind of question about how young a person should be.

But I would say that, you know, biblically speaking, if you're going to say, hey, when does a person become a murderer?

Well, a person becomes a murderer when they have some intention to kill the baby inside of them.

And that doesn't even require that they understand the baby to be a human, if that makes sense.

What do you mean? Well, I mean, just to give some sort of scenario that might be helpful,

I mean, the Germans didn't consider the Jews to be people.

Right. And they exterminated them. Or, you know, white people during certain parts of our history didn't consider, based on evolutionary assumptions, black people to be human, or they considered them to be some sort of subhuman race, as far as that goes.

But just because you might be fully convinced that a particular class of people is subhuman or nonhuman does not make the act itself not murder.

So it doesn't totally resolve around your understanding of what's happening in the moment, as far as that goes.

But a definition of murder does include intentionality there, as distinct from homicide.

So I think it's complicated. I think one of the things that you don't do is you don't ever apply capital punishment retroactively, if that makes sense.

So the law is meant to be a curb towards immorality, and a good scenario to think through here would be the issue of Cain.

So Cain commits the first murder, and he's not put to death, right? But he's not put to death because there's no law that formally, you know, put a punishment for it, as far as that goes.

But then shortly, you know, in the narrative, you have a capital punishment kind of thing that is put forward.

You know, whoever kills Cain will be, the vengeance will be taken upon him sevenfold, right?

So apart from the law there, you don't apply it retroactively. But once the law is set down, then everyone is held accountable to that.

And so I would be in favor of, you know, having a law that's put down that, you know, would be younger than 18 for sure.

You know, women are more than capable of making that kind of moral decision before the age of 18. And if they're not, it's like an absolute, you know, indictment on our society and on us.

Now, I think from a biblical speaking, when a person becomes, you know, when a person should be considered an adult is a lot lower than what we think.

So God sees Israel pictured in the Old Covenant as a young woman who's in the desert and basically naked, and God comes and, you know, cleans her up and gives her some clothes and all that.

But it says, Behold, she was at the time of love, essentially. And it says her breasts were formed. And basically what that's saying is that, you know, from God's perspective, women, when they go through puberty, they're at the time of love, meaning they're at the age they're ready to be married.

So the Bible's perspective of what an adult is is a lot sooner than what we are.

And, I mean, I can just think back from my own experience and know that I had significantly more moral awareness at, you know, during my teen years and even young teen years than what people think is possible.

You know, they're a bit naive as far as that goes. And so, you know, I wouldn't be in favor of, you know, applying some retroactive law that would go backwards and, you know, take care of all the murders that have happened at this point.

But I would be in favor of capital punishment going forward that was, you know, going to be enforced in a society that is for people a lot younger than 18, you know, when it comes down to it.

But it's not the kind of thing that you can do overnight. By any means, there's some time to get there as far as it goes.

Yeah, it seems like the question is really complicated overall, especially when you think about kind of on the other end of the spectrum, you know, abortion at this point is such a,

I don't want to say popular, that's not necessarily the right word, but such a well -known thing in our society that really

I wouldn't even be that surprised if people, especially girls who are much younger, understand what an abortion actually is or at least, you know, why there's such controversy around abortion than they would have maybe 20 years ago, right?

And so it seems hard to, on the other end of the spectrum, maybe say that they would just absolutely have no idea at the age of 13 what an abortion was just because it's so prevalent in our society and it's kind of hard to avoid that topic.

Yeah, I think that would be, you know, I think it's like a different, like if you're dealing with some kind of scenario where, you know, the child doesn't even know what, you know, you have some really young girl who was raped by their father and, you know, the parents are hush -hush about it, you know, something like that.

And then they're like, they get her to, you know, take a pregnancy test.

She doesn't even know what a pregnancy test is at that point in her life or something like that. And the test comes back positive just like they suspected because, you know, she started throwing up in the morning shortly after that and that kind of thing.

So they got her to take the test and then, you know, they bring her over to the clinic and it's pretty hush -hush.

They have some sort of agreement worked out where she's not going to be told about anything and that kind of thing. And then, you know, they, you know, do some sort of procedure without her really having much knowledge about it.

Obviously, in that kind of scenario, she doesn't even know what's happening. Right. Right. And she's not given the information she needs to make some sort of moral decision.

But as you said, I mean, I think we're living in the kind of society right now where that kind of scenario like that is the kind of scenario that everyone puts forward as if it's like just when you're talking about criminalizing abortion, that's what you're talking about.

But it's just like that's almost a very difficult situation to even know.

And when I was looking at that girl who was like probably 13 or 14 going in there, I was looking at someone who seemed to have some sort of awareness about what was happening.

Right. As far as I could, you know, speculate from a distance. I mean, I could be wrong on that. But, you know, you do pick up on body language and things like that.

But I think, yeah, in this kind of time and particularly where, you know, you have some sort of requirement that an ultrasound happens and that kind of stuff.

And I think there's a lot more awareness than that kind of, you know, scenario

I'm describing. Anyways, in the vast majority of situations, I'm sure. Yeah. Anyways.

So I guess kind of following a similar vein to some of the things you had in that response, you talked a lot about basically

I think a lot of people, especially on the left who are very much pro -abortion, they like to pretend that there's a lot of really morally justifiable reasons for abortion.

And primarily I think they're kind of things that they try to use to emotionally manipulate people and kind of make people out to look almost like some kind of, you know, super villain or something.

Like, oh, how could you ever, you know, push this on anyone? You know, they use examples like you had said, you know, the father rapes the daughter, right?

And then it turns out she gets pregnant, which is obviously a horrific thing to ever have to go, for anyone to ever have to go through.

But then oftentimes the tactic is to take instances like that and pretend that that is what happens the majority of the time.

And that's why the majority of abortions happen. And I don't have the statistics in front of me right now, but I know that statistically those types of things are very, very low.

Rape and incest are like less than a percent based on what's reported. Right. They also say things like, you know,

Planned Parenthood provides like all sorts of other, you know, family planning services besides abortions.

But, you know, abortions are 94 % of what they do. Right, right. You're against women's health care.

It's like, this is 94 % abortion. I remember they put out a graphic maybe at the beginning of last year, 2020.

And, you know, I was just looking at the number of, you know, of like essentially, you know, prenatal health care that they had given to patients who had been coming in for that type of thing.

And then, you know, you compare that to the number of abortions they perform and it's not even close.

I mean, it's not even close. So if your argument is from, you know, this type of position, you're basically just living in a pretend world or you're being incredibly dishonest on purpose.

But I just want to kind of give some time because I know that people will have those objections.

So dedicate some time to addressing those things. So I guess where we'll start first is just, you know, is there one of the most common ones

I hear now is, is, hey, look, some people aren't ready to have kids.

And not necessarily meaning, hey, I'm not, you know, mentally ready. I'm not emotionally ready, whatever. They're primarily meaning financially.

I'm not financially ready to have a child. And so I got an abortion instead.

And for you to deny me that right to get an abortion is to, you know, deny my health care options as a woman.

So what do you think? You know, according to Scripture, do you think that there can be made allowances for the person who's saying, hey, look,

I'm not financially ready. I can't take on this child. So it should be legal and it should be morally right for me to kill this baby before it's born.

Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, at every single point, all these words are being used in ways that are doing violence to their very meaning.

So, you know, it's an attack on my health as a woman to not allow me to kill a child because I'm not financially ready.

Well, you know, typically, you know, you consider this a health care issue, and now we're talking about mental health or, you know, emotional health or whatever else.

We're just doing violence to words as far as that goes. I need a safe space for my language.

Right. So we're living in a bizarro world there where words just mean the opposite of what they normally mean.

But yeah, I think that kind of calculus is, you know, it feels like it's just so far from a biblical worldview in so many ways.

And part of the reason why is because, you know, one of the things that you have happening is that, you know, it's never right to kill someone.

So you have basic moral intuition that Christians have, which is that two wrongs don't make a right.

And part of the whole lexicality is principle, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life. You have a principle of retributive justice.

And one of the morally justified reasons for killing someone is not because they're going to be putting you in a bad financial situation, right?

So whatever's going on there, you know, you have a rejection of what justice is, right? So if someone raped me or it's going to be a poor financial situation, therefore

I'm going to kill someone. That doesn't fly in any other area of life and we all know it. Now, part of the reason why that gained some sort of traction is because, you know, we've adopted the egalitarian notion essentially that everyone, you know, basically deserves the same standard of living, if that makes sense.

And so if there are inequalities in the world, then those inequalities must be fixed so that everyone's equal.

And one of the things that we know is that, you know, single motherhood is a great prediction of poverty in general.

And so if you want to know the, you know, the major, like the overwhelmingly the major contributor to poverty, it's the presence of, you know, single parent households.

And so you have a woman who's, you know, trying to be a career woman, live the American dream, go to college, go to school, do all this stuff so she can get a career, so she can make money and have stability, you know, independently of some sort of man.

And then she gets pregnant and like that essentially has, is going to be a major roadblock to her financial success apart from a man in the future, if that makes sense.

And so in general, you know, it used to be that women, you know, got married and then the biblical ethic is you get married, then you have a baby.

So you don't have sex before you get married because, you know, shock, you may get pregnant, right? Well, now what's happened is, you know, post -sexual revolution, sex is considered a right, a basic right, and it can happen whenever you want it.

But so you have the right to express your sexuality however you want, but then you, we want desperately to remove all the consequences of that through abortion, birth control, pills and everything else.

And so, but the problem is that you can't really fight God's design there. And so essentially, you do have premarital sex, you're rolling the dices and, you know, a baby might be part of that calculus and then, and you know what, gasp.

Like, yeah, obviously that if you go down that route, the Bible would call you a fool, right, and a sinner.

And the problem is that it's just like, yeah, that you're going to, you know, you're going to sow what you reap, right?

You're going to reap what you sow. So like the issue then is that, yeah, that is going to be a predictor of poverty, but then you shouldn't have done that if you didn't want to bear those consequences.

But then why does killing someone justify it? You know, well, it doesn't, right?

Now, what about the, you kind of mentioned this already, but is the rape victim any different in your eyes?

So this isn't the person who went out and willingly, you know, consented to sex with another person.

This is the person who didn't consent to sex. Do they have the same kind of moral standard applied to them or is it different because they were raped?

Well, yeah, this is something we talked about last episode, and it just seems like that people don't have any category for, what you have is you have just an oversimplification of what victimhood actually entails, right?

And so we live in a world that's clambering all over itself to try to identify people as victims.

But then once you get that coveted victim label, you know, you essentially have all moral responsibility removed from you.

And so it's really kind of a ridiculous way of viewing the world that once you get a victim label, you're almost like sainted at that point, right?

I mean, it's like, you know, just imagine yourself living in Alabama, right? And it's like when you get that victim label,

I mean, you're essentially Nick Saban, you know? Everyone would love that. Everyone would love to be

Nick Saban. Maybe not if you're an Auburn fan. I guess while they're still winning,

I guess while they're winning, you know, functionally you could do no wrong, right? And no one could conceive of you doing anything wrong at that point once you get that label, you know?

Because that label just gives you an all -purpose moral excuse. Yeah, your royalty. Yeah. I mean, it's just absurd.

That's not the way the world works. So it's possible to be both a victim and a villain at the same time. And I mean, you know, any number of people,

I mean, just imagine, you know, you're a guy and you walk in on your wife having an affair or something like that.

And then you pull out the gun, you shoot them both, right? Are you a victim?

Sure, right? But I mean, we all know that that's not the appropriate response to being a victim.

But the problem is that that only works if you're a man. Does that make sense?

Like people are only able to make just normal moral calculations for people like in those kind of situations where they're truly victimized when their males are the ones who are victimized.

You know, when a female is victimized, it's like it's an entirely different playbook and no one can understand. If you try to put the argument from the other side in the strongest terms,

I mean, the argument is that, well, if you're raped by this guy, he's forcing you to have a baby that you did not consent to and everything revolves around consent and everything else.

But then now it's like, you know, you have this baby and you're going to be very victimized your whole life, right?

You're going to be re -victimized. And so like essentially, you know, every day you're going to be reminded of your rapist and by looking at the fruit of your rapist and everything else.

And I think it's just – I know I'm not allowed to speak to that kind of scenario because I'm not a woman and all that.

But I guess if I went the transgender route and tried to self -identify, I still wouldn't be because I wouldn't be identifying as it, right?

Unless I gave the right answers, you know. As far as that goes, it's confusing.

It's confusing how this works. But – At least you can still compete against them in sports though.

Yeah. Right. Well, there you go. At least that would be allowed. But no. No, I mean

I think we – part of the biblical ethic only makes sense if you have a biblical God that's going to help you to live biblically, right?

And so you take all that out. It's just like, well, yeah, I can understand how an unbeliever might struggle with that for the rest of their life and being traumatized by that for the rest of their life.

And I understand how it could be that way. But then I also understand how God tells Hosea to go love a prostitute who keeps on cheating on him and how

God can put people in pretty hard situations. And then not only help them to deal with it but help them to excel at it.

There is a category of biblical love that Jesus loved us when we're unlovable and he gave himself up for us when we're unlovable.

And God could give a mother supernatural love. And I don't even know that it's just abnormal.

I mean all women have some sort of love for their children.

And part of it's just another thing that's going into that is just a psychological view of man that man is basically just, you know.

You can imagine all the horror movies or whatever of the woman getting raped and she has a child and she's raising little

Chucky. I mean that's the kind of thing that's just like, oh man, well he's got this serial killer kind of gene in him.

And he's going to raise this little Jeffrey Dahmer incarnate baby who's going to have to sleep with one eye open their whole rest of their life because of all that.

But I mean that's just not the way the world works. That's not the way it works.

She could love that kid and teach him, present

Christ to him and take him to church and give him a different life. And he doesn't maybe have to end up the way her rapist ended up as far as that goes.

And you know what? She doesn't have to be a victim of that the rest of her life. God can heal her of that and comfort her with that.

And the only way that that's going to work is if she looks in the mirror and says, hey I'm a sinner too.

And I need God to forgive me of my sin and I'm not just going to hold on to this victim identity my whole life. I'm not just going to make that who

I am, the rape victim. I'm going to have to say, hey you know what? I'm a sinner.

I need God's mercy. This guy sinned against me. But Jesus looked at the people putting him on the cross and he said,

Father forgive them for they knew not what they did. And they don't know what they're doing. And she could say the same thing if she had

God in her. But then when you live in a society, it doesn't have any kind of category for that kind of thing. And so it doesn't make sense.

And so it's just like, yeah, well, that sounds horrible. So just kill the thing, right? It's like, well, okay, yeah,

I get it. Pagan is going to pagan, right? Yeah, it's funny, you know, the people who are very much for abortion, they claim to also be the people who are for defending women against their rapist, right?

That's kind of something that they pride themselves on is that they care more about the women.

And they claim that people who are pro -life are obviously much more about the rapist.

That's not, you know, word for word what the claim is. But they do really put themselves as the person, as the people championing the rights of the rape victim, which is funny because that's like the opposite of what's happening.

And what I mean is I remember watching an interview, or I guess maybe it was maybe more of a debate between Jeff Durbin and the guys at Apologia Ministries on their podcast with a young lady who had commented on,

I guess, one of their videos that was talking about abortion. And so they had her onto the show.

She wanted to come on and talk to them about these things. And, you know, she mentioned that she herself was a rape victim, and she told a little bit about what happened to her.

And then I remember, you know, Jeff, she was kind of floored when she asked what they thought should happen to her rape victim, because first they had asked her and she said to her rapist.

And first they had asked her what she thought should happen to her rapist. And it was pretty terrifying, some of the things that she said.

It was pretty much like, you know, what you would imagine probably happened in like some

Japanese POW camps during World War II, you know, capturing Americans and Chinese soldiers and what probably happened to a lot of them.

She was describing a lot of things that sounded like they came straight out of one of those camps should happen to her rapist.

But then she asked Jeff what he thought should have happened to her rapist.

And, you know, his response was essentially, hey, you know what, if it was proven that he really did rape you, and you reported it to the police, who then took it to the court, and a judge heard it and ruled that he was guilty, he did rape you, then he should be put to death.

He should die by the government's hand. And that would be justice for you.

And she was kind of surprised that he said that. But then the reality is that is justice for the rape victim.

Now, obviously, it doesn't undo what's already happened, right? But then you at least have the, you know, the comfort,

I don't know the right word, but there is some resolution there, at least knowing, hey, this person's going to die for their actions.

But then even beyond that, even if that doesn't happen, if you're a

Christian, you know, hey, regardless of who gets away with what, eventually one day, we're all going to stand before God.

And God is a perfect judge who knows everything, and he will exact a perfect type of justice where people don't escape the consequences of their action if they're outside of Christ, right?

And so, you know, it's just funny to hear all of these people kind of have that as an argument.

Hey, we're the ones defending the rights of the victim.

Yeah, I think it's, you know, part of the discussion is what do you do with a victim in general? And that's,

I mean, it's a very relevant discussion in general. And I mean, I don't want to trivialize rape or something like that, but the

Bible talks about no temptations overtaking you, but what's common to man. The problem is that everyone knows what it's like to be abused in some sense.

And, you know, I'm not trying to say that there should be no differentiation of punishments or something like that.

I agree with Jeff and what the Bible says about, you know, if someone rapes someone, they should be put to death.

And just like the other subject, you know, we can't apply that retroactively. We need to, you know, make it a law if we're going to reflect what the

Bible says. And then, you know, going forward, everyone will hear and fear and never again do such wickedness now that they've been warned, right?

But the thing is, everyone's been victimized to some degree. And what's happening is it's symptomatic of a society that doesn't really know how to handle that.

I mean, I was watching a podcast. I think it was Rush Limbaugh went on some podcast with, you know, some brothers.

I can't remember. I can't remember what the podcast was.

It was not the kind of podcast I would normally listen to, but he went on there with some black dudes. And they were, you know, basically trying to have a discussion with their political enemy or whatever.

But I think it was related to all the riots that were happening and trying to find some kind of common ground. And he had, you know, he had basically brought up at some point, you know, like, hey, you know, sometimes people like, you know, just say things.

And don't you think that we need to just learn to get over it when people are rude, you know?

And one of the guys on there, and I wish I could remember what he said exactly. But, you know, he's like, well, if someone says something, you know, racist, you know, they should be made to punish.

They should be punished for that, you know? And Rush was like, well, what do you mean punish, you know?

And essentially, like the guy was like, well, if they say something mean, you know, they need to be made to stop.

You know, it's like, well, what if they don't stop? It's like, well, you need to call the police, right? Yeah. And throw them in jail.

Then I'm telling on you. And I mean, I think he even said, like, you know, if they won't stop, you should punch them, you know?

And it's like, hey, wait a minute. Like, you know, this is where, like, you're living in the kind of society where once you attach this victim label on something.

Like if someone says something you don't like, you're morally justified in punching them? Really? You know, assaulting them and getting them thrown in jail.

And, you know, shutting them up. And it's like I think we're, like, you think about that related to the topic at hand.

It's like we really don't understand forgiveness and we really don't understand how to deal with, you know, junk in life, you know?

And how to handle, like, being victimized. Yeah, and trials and difficulties.

And part of it's just like the psychological literature at this point. It's just messing everyone up. But, I mean, it's just like, hey, you don't have to just put this victim label on yourself and, like, be a victim your whole entire life and then just cope, you know?

But, like, the abortion people, I think they're helping women, but they're turning them into professional victims who just are shackled to, like, this offense.

And there's no hope for them, like, for the rest of their life. They're just shackled to this thing that they're unable to move on.

And it's like if they try to move on and say, hey, you know, if the woman comes along and says, yeah, hey, you know what happened?

I forgave him and moved on. It's like, well, you're in denial, you know? It's like, you know, like, this is just symptoms of how victimized you actually are because you could just, you know, turn the other cheek and move on and everything else.

And, you know, that's not right. And you just, I mean, essentially the only hope for them is just to be shackled to their, you know, to the offense for the rest of their life and permanently victimized.

And that's not helping anyone. That's just turning them into, you know, a bitter, angry, unforgiving person, the kind of person who's going to spend eternity in hell, right?

So, okay. Well, we've talked a lot about, you know, what about babies who are being born into poverty, babies who are being born out of, you know, instance of rape.

What about babies who are facing some form of deformity or severe health issue, you know, when they're in the womb?

Obviously, we have, we've advanced pretty significantly and we can detect a lot of these things before they ever, they're actually born.

So, we kind of know ahead of time what they might be facing and what kind of treatments they might need and everything.

But then for a lot of people, this can be a reason to actually kill the baby before it ever has to deal with any of those things.

So, what do you think about that? Do you think that that is a morally acceptable reason to kill the baby before it's born?

Yeah, I mean, obviously not. I mean, it's just another product of, you know, living in an egalitarian society where there's some sort of expectation that everyone has to be the same, you know.

And one of the things that we, you know, are constantly, you know, everyone's equally beautiful and everyone's smart, you know, and everyone's, you know, equally special and wonderful and everything else.

And, you know, everyone has to have the same kind of stuff. And, you know, if you grow up in poverty, then like, my goodness,

I mean, you, like poverty even for American standards, like everyone's money must be taken and given and balance everything out, you know.

And so, if you have a kid who's going to be born with a disability, then, well, you know, who wants to do that? So, just, you know, kill the thing and get it over with or whatever.

But, I mean, my goodness, that guy, our first child, you know, had a rough exit, a cord wrapped around his neck.

And, you know, the numbers that were given were really, really low. And the doctor came in shortly after that.

I mean, he was flown by helicopter to a different hospital that was going to be able to put him on a cooling bed to limit the possible brain damage that he could have.

And we were told by the doctor that he, you know, there's an infinite chance that he either is going to die or have significant brain damage.

And, you know what, we didn't really think, well, you might as well just kill him, you know. I mean,

I remember looking, you know, saying to God, hey, Lord, we wouldn't request this providence from you.

Something along those lines. And, you know, I wasn't, I don't desire that my son, you know, have brain damage.

But if that's your will, help us to accept it. And, I mean, that's what we prayed. I mean, hey, you know, nevertheless, not my will but thine, you know.

And so, I mean, that's not what I wanted for him. But if that's what was going to happen, that's what was going to happen. And, you know, we'll take it as it comes, you know.

But that's, I mean, God spared us from that as far as that goes.

And I do consider that he spared us from that kind of outcome. No one wants their child to have brain damage.

Right. But at the same time, I mean, you don't, like, if he did, we'd still love him and we'd still take care of him, you know.

And he had a different future looking forward. And we would have a different future. But, I mean, that's, like,

God doesn't give everyone the same situation. He wouldn't have been unjust to give us that scenario. And if he did, then he did, you know.

And we would accept it from his hand. But that, you know, that's just a pagan view of humanity where, you know, the child's born with the cleft palate.

You throw them out to the wild animals, you know. Like, that's just, like, you've taken vanity and you've elevated it.

Like, that's just the vanity of man on display. And so, there's no morally justifiable reason to kill a child just because he's going to have a disability.

I mean, let's not pretend like it's not a disability, right? Like, let's not pretend like it's, like, oh, he's normal and it's just society that's abnormal.

It's like, no, he's abnormal, okay? Like, let's not play some stupid game like that, you know.

But, like, okay, you know, it is what it is. God's made all sorts of people.

And part of that is to remind us of the consequences of the fall.

Part of that is to make us more like him. And so, God will use a variety of things to make it to help his people become more like him.

And that's one of those things. And you can't resist it and just become a murderer just because you don't like the providence that's come your way.

Okay. What about when the life of the mother is being threatened?

Oh, man. So, some kind of scenario where the baby is due to be born, but then it's not looking like the mother will make it through it once it's time to actually deliver the baby.

I'm not a doctor, so I'm sure there's other scenarios that could happen before then, too, that could threaten the life of the mother.

So, anything like that. What is abortion? It's amazing. Go ahead.

Is abortion a viable option at that point? Because obviously people are going to bring that up.

Yeah, it's amazing. I had a sister -in -law who had a

C -section on her first baby. And she had another C -section on her second baby. And I think from kid three to five, she was told it's very dangerous to keep on having babies with C -sections because you have complications and possibly die and all this kind of stuff.

And she had up to five C -sections in a row. And it was amazing how none of those predictions panned out.

I've heard that kind of stuff over and over and over and over again. And it seems like it's remarkable how often that kind of thing happens and how many stories there are of the woman who just says,

I'm not going to kill my baby. And then it ends up that, you know what, everyone survives and is healthy.

Right. And so, it seems like I've heard way more of those kind of stories than the stories of the opposite where the woman wants to go ahead and do it.

And then she ends up dying and the baby dies. And yet, you're living in a society that wants that story more than the other one.

Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. It's kind of like with all the COVID stuff. You're living in a society right now that wants to hear someone died of COVID, who wasn't vaccinated or something like that.

Yeah, so they can be proved right. Right. But then it's just like, hey, I don't hear any of – despite the fact that there's such a high demand for that story, particularly with some sort of conservative politician or something like that, all

I hear of is the multitude of the got the vaccine and had adverse effects from it kind of stories.

But the same thing is true on this. It's just like everyone wants to hear that story of the Christian person who's like, oh, have the baby even though it might be.

But it's just like I don't hear as many of those. And maybe it's because everyone just kills it, but I don't think so.

So, I think it's a pretty rare scenario. I think if you were to put it in the best possible scenario,

I mean you could try to maybe say that if you're not dealing with some sort of, hey, increased probability of death, but almost like some sort of mathematical certainty of death kind of scenario, what do you do if the baby is functionally holding the gun to the mother's head and says, my life for yours kind of thing.

And I would say I don't know that that's a scenario. And I think the ethicists that I've heard who basically say, hey, well, maybe it's permissible in those kind of rare circumstances, in which they're very rare kind of circumstances.

They're not common by any means. Might carve out an allowance for that.

But I probably need to review the science a little better as far as that goes.

But I would just speak anecdotally and say I would be very cautious of ever going there with it.

And I do have a category for greater love as no man than to lay down his life for his friends.

And I do know that the normal kind of mother has a she -bear kind of love for her cubs and isn't going to want to go down that route.

And if she does, will probably be morally stained in the process. Regardless of what anyone says,

I don't know. You have to deal with the fallout of that. And I probably wouldn't want most people to have to deal with the fallout of that.

But it's a rare scenario. And I don't know that the doctors are all that trustworthy all the time with all of their dire predictions related to this.

It seems like they have some sort of incentive to reduce.

I mean, it seems like they're making a lot of predictions. I mean, I can just tell you with my own wife. I mean, we were constantly warned, oh, it's dangerous to have more kids.

I mean, they're discouraging us. We had five. I mean, it's like discouraging us the whole entire time. And it's unsafe.

It's just like I don't think it's really all that unsafe. She's alive. They're all fine. What's the problem?

I can confirm she is still alive. She's still alive. It's like, oh, no. So, I mean,

I don't know that in some simplistic way you could just trust a doctor in that way.

But I'm aware that there are scenarios that can happen that are more than just the general fear -mongering kind of scenarios.

And I would say those are difficult. I'm not really persuaded myself by the, you know, hey, just kill them kind of thing.

Right. I will frankly admit that I've not been in that scenario myself. Okay. And my wife hasn't either.

But I'm not really at the moment persuaded that that's probably the godliest option, you know, unless it's just like, hey, you know.

Both of you are going to die or we can save you by, you know, killing a child.

What do you want to do? You know. And at that point, you know, there might be some kind of moral calculation to say that this baby has become a literal murderer at that point.

If you could nail it down with any kind of, you know, medical, like, show me the numbers and statistics.

But I don't know. That seems dubious at best. I wouldn't say I would say that, you know, it's in the category of morally dubious at best.

Probably wrong. You know. Yeah. So we've we've talked a lot about abortion.

Obviously, it seems like the conclusion we're coming to is it's essentially never

OK to murder your baby. Right. Even even when they're still in the womb, it's not

OK to murder your baby. And and even with the the life of the mother being threat.

Yeah. I mean, yeah, you can you can, you know, that run that scenario out of. I mean, I've heard the story of, you know, hey, you have the twins.

If you kill one of them like they're in complications, the other one won't survive. And, you know, then

I've you know, I've heard that scenario and then they kill the wrong twin, you know. So so.

But God miracles can happen. We believe, you know, there is some sort of trust in the Lord with all your heart and don't lean on your understanding.

Right. And, you know, I think there is a danger of playing

God in these scenarios. It's very real, you know, and taking prerogative of life and death is in his power, not ours.

And that should be our basic stance. So so we've essentially, you know, we've established that this is a wrong thing to do.

This is an evil thing to do to take the life of an unborn child, basically refusing to accept the fact that this this child is actually human, just like us and has the same right to life that each of us has.

And abortion's not a new thing either. I mean, you can read this has been around for really,

I mean, I would assume, honestly, just about as long as as people have been around, maybe not quite as long because we can read, you know, the creation story and and know that it didn't necessarily happen in that story.

But all throughout the Bible, you see the murdering of children, the sacrificing of children.

And it's kind of like something that's paired up a lot with pagan, pagan rituals.

And this is all I say, all that basically to say this is not a new topic.

Abortion was not invented, you know, 50 years ago, 60 years ago.

Right. It it's been around a lot longer than that. But it seems like recently it's obviously in our society become a lot, a lot more popular overall, even to the point that people are arguing that every woman should have the right to an abortion.

And part of their push for this is to say, hey, you know, we you need to be if you want to be on the right side of history.

Right. You need to you need to be for the legalization of abortions and trying to get as many women as possible access to legal abortions, to legal murdering of their children.

But that's a pretty strange statement to make.

Really, if you think about it, if you think about the fact that abortion is not a new thing, it wasn't invented 60 years ago.

It seemed it seems weird to say that, you know, if you want to be on the right side of history, you need to be for abortion.

It doesn't really seem like it makes a lot of sense, considering abortion would have been, you know, at best looked down upon and you would have been shunned if people found out that you aborted your unborn child, you know, centuries ago.

So why exactly are people pushing that kind of narrative that you you should be on the right if you want to be on the right side of history?

You need to be for the legalization of abortion if it's been around for so long and for so long been viewed as such a, you know, a terrible and a shameful thing to do.

Yeah, I mean, I think the whole right side of history narrative is just it's kind of based on the idea that secularism, you know, with combination with scientism and that kind of stuff that I'm essentially we're progressing as a species.

And so it's obvious that you can demonstrably you can look around the world and you can see that, hey, things are getting better.

Right. Like in terms of technology and science and everything else. And so we know more than what we know, know in the past.

And and but I mean, you can draw some inappropriate conclusions from that.

So we think, hey, things are getting better. Therefore, we know more now. Well, the problem is that like what you see around you is a product of pool of knowledge.

So we're standing on the shoulders of giants. But I mean, you can just look at like a test, you know, high school exams from the 1800s or whatever else and see that like the kids back then knew way more than the kids today do.

I mean, I think it used to be that in order to get like a PhD, you had to argue your dissertation in Latin.

You know, like I think, you know, I think men used to be much more intelligent than they are today.

It's just that we have access to so much more information now. And, you know, standing on the shoulders of giants and pulled benefits of pooled knowledge and everything else.

But it's not demonstrable that we're getting better ethically. But then that's part of part of what's happening is that there's a lie that, you know, we were founded in Christian as a

Christian nation. Making explicit reference to the Christian God.

But then the thing is, as we've kind of chucked certain aspects of that morality, we think we're advancing.

So we think secularism is better than the biblical ethic in a lot of ways. And so we're advancing. And so, you know, you women now have been given rights, you know, to be career women and, you know, right to vote and all sorts of things like that.

And, you know, I could get myself in all sorts of trouble related to that kind of topic. We think these are all improvements, but it's not demonstrably true that these are improvements across the board in some sort of simplistic way.

And so we think, well, you know, first we dealt with the race, with the slavery issue. And I think that that was a that was a good thing that we did.

The women's rights issue was attached to that. And then you have, you know, sexual deviant revolution that's happening.

And so I think we think we're getting better and better and better. But then it's what we're actually doing,

I think, in particular, as it relates to morality, is getting more secular and more pagan in that thought process.

And the problem with the whole right side of history argument in general is that, you know, like it's these things kind of run in cycles in general.

So, you know, I'm sure that in the Third Reich, all the Nazis thought they they could have made the same arguments.

You want to be on the right side of history will embrace the final solution. Right. Well, we realize because of science, because of Darwin, that there's a tears to races, you know, and and, you know, the survival of the fittest.

And, you know, we're the most technologically advanced nation in the world. And, you know, we need to subjugate these subhuman species that put them under our feet, finally, for the betterment of mankind.

If you want to be on the right side of history, then embrace our agenda. Right. Well, the problem is that, you know, history, we don't ever know the end arc of history, you know, in the moment, if that makes sense.

Right. And so if you want to be on the real right side of history, I mean, the point is that the only way to, you know, know which arc you're actually on, you know, are you regressing as a society or are you improving it is to understand what biblical morality actually is.

Right. Because these things can come and go. Yeah. So. So, I mean, we look back on the we look back on the final solution and think that was reprehensible.

We're going to look back on the abortion stuff and think that's reprehensible to hopefully anyway.

Well, we will at some point. Or at least some other some other country, you know, centuries from now, we'll look back at what we did and we wonder how we ever kind of mankind.

Yeah. Back on this at some point, you know, unless God just returns tomorrow or something like that.

But then humankind will look at it. Right. And wonder how we even got here. Got so far down the wrong side of history.

You know, but the problem is you have to have an interpreter of history that is objective and fixed.

And that's by what she is. It's an interpreter of history because these things come and go.

And and I think there's a lot of things that we think we're liberated from, which we're actually just we've liberated ourself from a

Christian ethic and and there'll be consequences to it. And we'll look back and sin never pays.

You know, it always bear a bitter fruit and we'll see it. So a lot of people also argue that if you ban legal abortions, you're basically what you're doing is you're forcing women to have to go and and get what they would call unsafe abortions.

Now, obviously, this is an oxymoron, you know, calling an abortion unsafe because the end result is even even in a quote unquote safe abortion.

The end result is the death of a human being. So I don't really know how safe that can be when a person always dies.

If the abortion goes successfully, but their argument is that you'll force women to have to get unsafe abortions.

And a lot of times what they mean is, you know, you have the essentially they have to perform the abortion themselves.

And obviously they're not trained professionals. They don't have medical access to medical equipment, you know, that you would need to see inside of them inside of their womb and everything.

And so there's a lot of harm that can be done to the women who are fixed on getting an abortion, even if it's illegal.

So what what do you think the Christian response should be to this type of argument that if you ban legal, if you ban legal abortions in our country, then you are condemning women to have to get unsafe quote unquote abortions?

Yeah, I mean that. Yeah, the absurdity of that.

I mean, it's just there's so many euphemisms that are being used. You know, they don't have access to medical equipment.

You mean forceps and scalpels and, you know, the chemicals that burn.

Yeah, I mean, now they're going to have to use, you know, a primitive coat hanger or something like that.

And in order to, you know, stab their baby to death in the womb, you know, and the problem is that like a woman who is actually doing that, like that kind of woman is, you know, she's worse than Hitler.

I mean, the kind of woman who is taking a coat hanger and doing that kind of thing. And it's really,

I mean, there is no difference between that kind of person and a person who's going to stab someone with a knife. Like they know you're not taking a coat hanger to a clump of cells.

Come on, you know, like, you know, you know what you're doing at that point. There's moral awareness to what you're doing.

There's no need to take a coat hanger to a clump of cells. Right. I mean, like, yeah.

So, yeah, I mean, it's just more of the same. I mean, I, like, you know,

I'm not emotionally interested in making, you know, murder painless on the murderer.

I don't have a vested moral interest in trying to help a person.

I mean, you know, not, I mean, it's just like, you know,

I don't want to be that person who is, you know, inventing the, you know, the some sort of like gloves or something that a person can put on and punch a person to death without hurting their hands, you know?

Yeah. I mean, it's like, come on, like, you know, it's that kind of moral calculation there where it's just like, hey, you know, don't you want, like, don't you care about women?

Don't you want to make everything about that pain -free and everything? It's like, no, I don't, you know, I care about the one that they're stabbing to death more than I care about the one doing the stabbing.

And so if she gets hurt in the process, then you know what, like that saves us some time and a rope, you know?

Some tax dollars, I guess. Yeah. I mean, like, yeah. Well, thank you. You know, you, you've done our job for us, for us, you know, if you're going to do that, then yes,

I'm much more concerned about your victim than I am you at the moment.

So two final questions for you before we wrap this up. The first one being, you know,

I myself, the more I've learned about, you know, abortion, the more

I've kind of immersed myself in this debate that's going on in our country on this topic.

And I've also, you know, I've had a child of my own in the, you know, in the last year or so, basically.

And that's really kind of changed my perspective. Not that I wasn't, you know, against abortion before, but I guess just kind of more in terms of just how much so I am against it.

What I've found recently, the more I've immersed myself in this topic and the more

I look at my own daughter, you know, and can't even bear to imagine anything ever happening to her.

But then knowing that there's over 60 million babies that are, that are just like her, that, you know, they didn't get a chance, the same chance at life that my baby got and not, not because of, you know,

God's providence, but because of the sin of man, you know, they're, they're having their lives robbed from them.

And what I've found basically is that more and more, this topic really, really provokes a certain kind of anger inside of me in some ways.

And I wanted to ask you, when it comes to this kind of topic, do you think that there is any room for the

Christian to say, hey, this makes me angry that this is happening? It makes me angry that we have to have this conversation at all.

Or is that probably like, hey, we're, we're taking it too far. We need to be the type who are loving and patient and gentle and kind.

What is your perspective on that based off what scripture says? Yeah, I mean, there's two competing realities.

One, that wrath of man doesn't produce the righteousness that God requires, kind of thing. And then you have

Jesus, you know, overturning the tables in the temple kind of scenario. And the opposite.

And so I don't know that anger is, there's some sort of simplistic understanding of anger in the

Bible. I'd say that most of the time, probably 99 % of the time, our anger is sinful. And even righteous anger can be sinful anger too.

So I don't know that there's, it's very hard for sinful human beings to pull it off well.

But I would say that if there's anything that should make a Christian angry, and they should feel safe about, for the most part, is this kind of subject in general.

And so generally, you distinguish righteous anger from sinful anger. And in the way of this,

I mean, like, righteous anger generally is devoted towards God's priorities and God's, you know, values and God's glory.

And it's God's word and focused. And so if you think about the way the Lord's Prayer work, it's, you know, thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Typically sinful anger is about, you know, my kingdom come, my will be done on, you know, in heaven as it is right now as I've done it on earth.

And so it's kind of a flipping of that. And so, you know, often I would say, our anger is self -focused, me focused, not

God's focused or others focused. But then I think with something like abortion, it's easier for it to be, you know, more focused on God's purpose, you know, like how long the

Lord will allow this kind of gross iniquity kind of thing. And it's focused on other people, not so much like how it affects you personally.

It's a little bit safer, but even that can have a self -righteous kind of thing to it.

You know, thank God I'm not like these other, you know, pagans over here who, you know, rip their children open in their mother's womb.

You have to kind of check that too, to where is it? You know, we live in a society right now that it has like a fine moral, you know, scrupulous moral calculus as it relates to, you know, the sins of all these people we're canceling who have been dead for over a hundred years, you know?

And so we're the kind of people who can look back at the sins of people 150, you know, 200 years ago and get ourself all worked up in the self -righteous moral condemnation.

And we're the kind of people who can do that and yet at the same time be totally blind to the kind of sins that we're committed right now, you know, that are just obvious and right there in our face.

You know, we all like to think that we'd kind of be, you know, the German in the

Third Reich who is pushing against the system and everything else, but most of us wouldn't because we're going along with it just, you know, just like it is right now and unwilling to risk anything in order to, you know, keep our heads down and everything else.

And so I would say that there's that danger of it just being like, you don't want to be the kind of person who's just obsessed with the sins that you never commit, you know?

But at the same time, you know, there's a wrong response to that kind of thing that's basically like, well, you know what?

I'm a sinner, so therefore just who am I to judge if they want to rip up babies in the mother's womb, you know?

And that kind of thing isn't right either. So I do think, you know, the fact that we don't feel angry about it is probably an indictment on us because we just don't care.

We're careless about it. We prefer to not think about it. So the final question for you before we wrap this up, we spent probably two and a half, maybe close to almost three hours now between two episodes talking about abortion, why it's wrong, what the consequences should be according to Scripture for the people who are committing it.

And I wanted to just ask you if you could take a minute to explain, maybe some people are hearing this and they're the person who they've gone through with abortion.

They've killed their unborn baby or maybe they're the person who's performed the abortion. They were the one taking the lives of many unborn children and they feel immense guilt about it, right?

Maybe their conscience isn't so seared that it doesn't sit right with them.

And they're hearing us and they're saying, hey, these types of people need to be put to death for what they've done.

According to what God said, they deserve death. Is there any good news for this person?

Is there any type of forgiveness that can be offered to the person who's decided to get an abortion or has performed abortions or has pressured other people to get abortions?

Is there any kind of forgiveness that can be given to these people?

Sure. I mean, I think there's an offer of the Gospels available to all people and it's available to murderers too.

So David killed Uriah and committed adultery and murder all in the course of a very short period of time.

And God forgave him of that and there's obviously consequences that happened. That his kingdom was torn from him and those consequences were very severe, but God forgave him.

And God can forgive a person who commits murder and God can forgive the abortionist or the murder doctor or the woman or the man who's pressuring the woman or demanding that it happens or whatever else.

I mean, God can forgive everyone if they ask, but then the problem is that God won't forgive anyone unless they ask.

And the Bible says, if we confess our sins, He's faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. You're living in a society right now that's basically telling that kind of person, it's not your fault, you didn't do anything wrong, it's a women's health care issue, wrapping the thing in euphemisms to dampen the moral responsibility for it.

And the problem is that kind of person who's listening to this, they may get mad, but then there's part of them that the moral law of God's written on their heart and they know that they're guilty.

And I would say the more that they try to silence that voice in there, that conscience, they're not going to win.

It's exceedingly hard just to totally drown out that conscience and it's going to nag you and it's going to nag you and it's going to nag you.

And if you want to spend the whole rest of your life saying, hey, it wasn't your fault, you're a victim, you can do that, but you're going to have to live with that.

And I would say it probably won't work. And if it does, then you're in a really bad state if somehow you finally get it to silence.

But then the freedom of the gospel is that you can be forgiven. You can be forgiven of that and worse if you humble yourself, take responsibility for your actions, quit blaming everyone else around you and just own up to what you did.

God can forgive you. And that doesn't mean that there won't be any consequences of your actions.

And God only knows what those consequences are, but you could spend your life repenting and see all the good that God could bring out of the evil if you would just turn to Him in faith and repentance, trust in what

Jesus did. That's not the message the world's trying to do. The world's trying to shackle people as slaves to that choice and ultimately is leading them to a miserable life and a far more miserable life in the future.

Well, I think that's a good place for us to end.

This has been another episode of Bible Bash. We hope that you've been encouraged and blessed through our discussion.

Now, go boldly and obey the truth in the midst of a biblically illiterate world who will be perpetually offended by your every move.