January 4, 2018 Show with Jeff Durbin on “A Blueprint for Abortion Mill Evangelism”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour.

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Here's our host.

Chris.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

Lake City, Florida.

And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com.

This is Chris Arnson your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Thursday on this fourth day

of January 2018 and I'm so delighted to have back as a returning

guest somebody who I truly love.

Interviewing when those opportunities arise and that is Jeff Durbin pastor of apology a

church in Tempe, Arizona.

He is also the founder of apology a TV and apology a radio and he is also hosting a

Television program called next week now and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens

iron radio pastor Jeff Durbin.

Well, thank you Chris.

I've been on the show with you.

Yeah, and today we are going to be talking about a very important subject blueprint for

abortion mill evangelism and so if you know anybody that's contemplating an abortion

or if you know anybody that is involved in Abortion mill evangelism themselves or with their

congregations or parachurch ministries, please email them text them tweet

them or call them to have them listen to the program on iron sharpens iron radio .com and

Before I go into the subject with you pastor Jeff let our listeners who are discovering you for the first time.

Let them let them know something about apology a church.

Sure, so apology a church was started.

We're coming up on our eighth birthday at the end of February.

Started at a drug and alcohol rehab facility.

I was the chaplain there.

It's one of the oldest rehab hospitals in Arizona and So I was a pastor at a church

in Phoenix while I was off the chaplain at this hospital and God called us to

plant apology a church to care for all the people that were coming to Christ out of addiction.

And to to care for them and disciple them.

So that was about eight years ago and since that time God has grown our church spiritually

numerically.

God's used us in tremendous ways.

And across a wide variety of issues.

Abortion is is one of those issues.

Mormon as we do a lot of outreach.

We're we're very very committed to getting into the marketplace into the town square with the message of the gospel and

so it has been tremendous eight years of a pretty

powerful opportunity with apology a radio.

Apology a TV.

We these things apology a church and outreach arms.

Apology a radio had about a million downloads last year.

And.

Just what all the other content.

God has allowed us to be able to communicate the gospel literally all over the planet.

In so many different countries, and it's just been a tremendous blessing.

Well, praise God.

Well, how can people listen to apology a radio and watch apology a TV?

Yeah, so the landing spot pretty much for everything is apology of studios.

Calm.

And so our radio show is up there our TV shows the after shows our apology Academy we have.

Just a fantastic Academy.

We have men like dr. James White.

We have guys like Douglas Wilson.

We've got we have a new one with Nate Wilson John Sampson on reform theology apologetics

Doctrine of the Trinity we even have dr. Mitch Stokes who's a professor at New St. Andrews College.

Talking about Mathematics in the biblical worldview how you can't really have mathematics without Jesus

and so there's just a ton of content there and it's it's an apology of studios.

Calm.

You can also go to apology of studios on Facebook and on YouTube and there's just hundreds of.

Hours of content.

All right now tell us something about something.

That's very unusual for a pastor.

You have your own Late night talk show called next week.

Let us know about that.

Sure, so one of the things we wanted to do in 2017

Our plan with end abortion now was to equip churches to provide them resources.

To connect people to their legislatures to speak to them and demand immediate justice for these fatherless

children.

And we knew that we needed to produce in in the culture About abortion and what I mean by that

is change it in terms of making it gospel since fundamentally failed.

To be essentially Christian in the approach to to confronting the

essentially produced content and put stuff that across social

media and.

So that was one aspect and and we did a ton of stuff last year.

We're seen by millions and millions and millions of people.

People came to Christ through watching those people turned away from killing their children because of watching those.

If people started going to the abortion mills after watching those and so that was one aspect.

But next week was we wanted to have a weekly platform That would communicate

to a is end

abortion now.

The heart of that show is local churches across the

United States to get involved.

To go to end abortion now calm to get free training to get free Resources to get everything you need to do the same kind of

justice and mercy Mission that we're doing an apology at church saving lives preaching the gospel helping mothers and

fathers.

So next week we should do that and it's

break out of the reformed ghetto and we wanted to have some.

That's true, it's true in order to end abortion it has to be something that goes across the wide spectrum of

Christianity and so we wanted to break out of the reformed ghetto.

We wanted to be a larger audience and call

people to get involved.

And so we knew that if we did a show in this this is this is kind of discouraging, but it's true.

We knew if we did a weekly show on abortion.

We knew that barely anybody who walked

in this area of abortion would be would be lessened.

So we knew we needed to do a show that

in a wide variety of ways.

But also constantly point people back to end abortion now to show the babies that have been saved.

So we did and tremendously blessed it.

I mean we had I don't even know the numbers exactly but over a million people that watch the show we had

so many views across a wide spectrum of communities and.

From the time we Started doing next week with Jeff Durbin.

We added about a hundred local churches preaching the

gospel and saving lives.

We hit kind of a stall point.

Before we did next week and as soon as we lost.

And you do add humor to this program something that also Is far too often a

foreign thing to us reform people.

It is it is no, it's interesting.

If you if you know apology a church and apology or radio and all the stuff that we do if you listen to episodes

from seven years ago.

We we cut we you know somebody commented once before about apology or radio.

They said it and so that's just up

to just you know time but also

think and so apology has always sort of had that about us because it's just who we are and.

So doing next week was we wanted to have something

that was good

and.

And it was cutting.

We wanted to have A of death that was

cutting and hard.

And so yeah, there's there's a monologue in each show.

Opening monologue.

We we we tell we tell Planned Parenthood

and we we try to engage with with with yeah, and we're

gonna continue to get better at it.

We just finished our first season of it.

Next season comes out in February.

We have an incredible first guest already lined up for February that's that's.

I can't mention him but it's gonna be amazing.

And how do folks watch next week?

So next week people can watch that it airs live on Facebook live every Tuesday

Tuesday evening on our Facebook page.

Apology of studios.

We also put it up on YouTube later.

It'll also be up an apology of studios.

Calm at some point, but it's live every Tuesday evening.

Well sometime in the future you have to at least one time let me be your Ed McMahon on the show.

In fact, I am going to do something that I've never done live on air before but I'm going to Imitate for you

just for you Jeff Durbin and anybody who has the misfortune of listening.

I'm going to imitate Johnny Carson right now.

Okay, and here's my Johnny Carson imitation.

It was so cold in Tempe Arizona today that they found a family of illegal

aliens huddled together in Jeff Durbin's beard.

Sorry you had to endure that folks.

But anyway, I'm gonna play right now so people can get an actual taste of what you do

at the abortion clinics.

Where I actually hate to use the term clinic the abortion mills like pan planned parenthood.

What you and Volunteers from apology a church and apology of studios do

there.

This is one of your briefer Videos that obviously since this is a radio program people will only be hearing

it by audio.

And of course Folks listening you can you can see many of these on

YouTube.

How many do you know of how many you have posted on YouTube?

Oh.

Goodness, I I have no idea.

I mean, I think there's over 500 videos on our YouTube channel, I think.

And I'm not sure how many of those are related to abortion.

There's a ton.

There's a ton.

There's there's a lot a lot of hours of content.

Well, this is an this is one of the excellent moments.

It's about eight minutes long.

I think and I Would I would even suggest you who are listening to grab a pen and paper or

just sit in front of your keyboard and make notes?

During this but we will be right back with Jeff Durbin live.

Momentarily, but right now this is a recording of Jeff Durbin at an abortion mill.

What's that.

Who.

Being able to choose whoever.

People should be able to do what they want their bodies.

So can I rape a woman?

No, you shouldn't do that.

So I can't do it.

So I can't I can't do what I want my own body.

Can I you knew what you want?

We your body you just can't do anything.

So, let me try this.

The person should be able to do what they want with their own body.

Yeah, we shouldn't be able to we shouldn't be allowed to just abuse other people's bodies.

Absolutely Okay.

So in the case of what's happening inside there right now, the woman's body is not dying.

It's another body biologically distinct inside of her that is being killed.

I'm all for women doing what they want with their bodies.

I'm an agreement with you actually fundamentally that we shouldn't be able to harm other people's bodies.

Which is precisely what's happening in there.

I'm glad you joined us.

But I still just think it should be up to them.

You shouldn't really.

So all moral decisions should just be up to anybody.

Yeah, it's so.

We should be able to molest children free will.

We should be able to molest children.

We should be able to molest children.

Rape women.

No, no, you said you stopped up morals.

Morals aren't.

Where's this come from?

Just life bro, it's like it's just life bro.

Yeah, this is.

Morals are just life bro.

Yeah.

Okay, so the child molester in the in the cage right now that we've caged up Yeah, who kidnapped and

dismembered a small little girl after raping her.

We put him in jail, do you think he should be there?

Oh, absolutely.

He lives by a different moral code than you right?

He believes that what he did is a good moral happy thing.

It's not necessary.

Got pleasure from it.

Well, there's lots of people today that are pedophiles that enjoy it.

Why why don't you let them have their way for you?

A lot of the times that's usually a psychological issue.

Who says it's a psychological issue.

I'm not a scientist you talk it.

No you're talking about brain gas biochemical responses happening in the brain.

Neurons are firing.

Yeah.

So so you're talking about a condition that's happening in the brain of Evolved protoplasm and the

decision led to certain activities and you're condemning the activity that came from the brain gas.

No, I'm saying that Right there can sometimes be affected like a disease and.

Sometimes brain gas have a control over but it led to an activity.

You're saying the activity is wrong.

Oh, absolutely.

What basis is the activity wrong?

She shouldn't do anything.

Are you an atheist?

Agnostic, you know, okay.

So coming from an agnostic worldview.

On what basis do you call anything wrong?

Anything wrong.

What do you mean by that you're an agnostic right.

So you don't know true, right?

Yeah.

Okay, so someone who doesn't know is making all kinds of knowledge claims.

Yeah, but I still Believe it morally just deep down the humankind.

It's the right thing to do.

Okay.

Do you believe that we have all to get here?

Oh, absolutely.

You believe that our ancestors are there were African apes.

No, our ancestors were fish.

Uh -huh.

So we're we're evolved fish, right?

Right.

And you're condemning certain human behaviors and activities in a universe that doesn't care about us when our ancestors were fish.

You're calling one.

You're calling one value that's risen up over evolutionary time.

Wrong.

And one, right?

Those are arbitrary.

Yeah, but see sometimes just people don't have.

Thank you science.

Science is a methodology.

Science is a.

Methodology.

Can you can you prove that it's not so.

Are you saying that science give you gives you morals?

No, thank you.

That's what we were talking about.

You're late catching up.

Okay back to what we were talking about.

Science is an ethanol.

Science is a methodology.

It requires induction.

Science is a methodology requires induction.

We were talking about morality.

So you're in a different conversation.

You're kind of trying to change the stuff.

No, we were.

If you want to talk about science I'll ask you how you can account for induction which is at the very bottom of Science you

have to have uniformity in nature and induction the principle of induction in order to actually do the

scientific method.

Oh, right.

So let me ask you.

Me ask you as a let me ask you as an agnostic.

Yeah, how do you justify an appeal to uniformity in the principle of induction given that you are an

agnostic?

You don't know that the fat next five seconds will be like the past.

Yeah, so we need to know that for science to work.

Not necessarily.

You just kind of have to live man.

Yeah, I would encourage you to really really examine that because if you really hold to the scientific method you need

induction in the.

Uniformity in nature uniform in nature.

Well, you don't see it in a science textbook is we need science, bro.

Just cuz.

You don't see it in a science textbook.

That's true.

But when you're trying to come at me after you're yelling at them.

No, I'm not coming out.

Obviously.

I can't.

I can't bring science as the first thing to.

Know stick to justify it.

Justify an appeal to induction.

We need the future to be like the past.

We need the universe to be uniform.

How would how would humankind progress?

How would you get?

I don't think I don't think I would you get on the fish to the.

Human now and from what we're gonna be.

I mean, I don't think you understand what I'm saying to you.

So science Depends upon the uniformity in nature.

We have to do things based upon observation, right?

So we examine a cell we examine we examine DNA biology.

We examine something and we recognize that there are repeated patterns that the future will be like the past past

experiences Showed us one thing through observation.

Therefore we now move from those past experiences to project into the future.

What will be in the future?

That's the basis of science.

So I'm asking you as an agnostic who believes that your ancestors were fish in a purposeless unguided universe.

How do you justify and satisfy.

The.

Preconditions necessary for science and the uniformity in nature when you believe that we live in a godless universe.

That's not governed.

I didn't say that godless is atheist agnostic.

It means that I just don't believe.

I don't know.

So you live by faith, right?

Yeah, I just kind of go with the flow.

You look you live by blind faith.

Yeah.

Yeah, right.

That's not the Christian position.

We wouldn't want to live like that blind faith Christians.

I'm saying I'm saying you have a world view.

I have a world view.

I'm sure no.

Yeah, you're entitled.

Yeah, you live by blind faith.

So therefore you really have no argument with say back to the moral position.

You really have no position to argue with say the rapist.

The kidnapper the enslaver.

Just as you're in a position though.

I'm entitled to my no you I.

Listen, you can believe of course what you want.

But what I'm saying is that I'm talking to you as a Christian with with love saying that with your position of

blind faith that You've granted with no basis for science or morality.

You can't really make an appeal to morality at all because you live by faith.

You don't know you're an agnostic.

You don't know.

Mm -hmm, right?

So when you walk past here though, you didn't act like you didn't know when you walk past here when you walk past here.

You didn't act like you didn't know you actually said they should be able to do what they want with their bodies.

So, how do you make sense of that when you said that you don't have any way to justify morality or science?

You don't know you live by faith.

You see.

No, I see I feel like this conversation is kind of going in circles.

I understand what you're saying and I respect you.

Yeah, but I think we're just gonna keep going.

Well, I want you to know just with my name is Jeff Jonathan.

Nice to meet you.

I just want you to know why we're here just so you don't you know, we're not knowing we love you.

We care for these women.

We over 70 babies have been saved through this work.

That's awesome Carmelo Olivia Grace Cara like I can show you pictures.

That's why we're here because we care we love these people.

We want you to know something just last thing I'll say to you and I really appreciate you stopping.

Okay?

We're here because we're forgiven because we're saved.

God loves us.

He died for our sins and rose from the dead and the message is that all who turn from their sin to come to him Will be forgiven and that's what we want

for you.

That's that's the message.

I appreciate I appreciate you James.

God bless you, man.

You too. Thank you.

That was pretty powerful stuff Jeff.

And That was that at a Planned Parenthood.

Yeah, that was that actually the Planned Parenthood in Tempe not far from our studio.

They're no longer there they actually I think because of all the work that we were doing there.

They had so much pressure from the community.

They actually moved and shouldn't but yeah, that was at the old Tempe Planned

Parenthood location.

And I think that your own information is probably outdated now.

You said we've saved over 70 babies if I'm not mistaken.

Our last conversation that it far exceeded that.

Yeah, I think we're around a hundred.

It's difficult at this point to keep track.

And and when we say that with that's just confirmed.

There are times when we can't actually confirm.

So we don't really add those numbers.

But we know that it's well over a hundred but we say right now about a hundred.

Children say from death and you're talking about women that we're going to enter into the doors of that

Abortuary and have her baby.

Murdered.

Changed her mind right in front of you.

Yes.

Yeah, so this is.

Typically what has happened is it's women who are

and they're going in for their abortion and they'll turn around after hearing

our and There's other times where maybe they're going there for

consultation.

There's they've set the appointment for the abortion and they come out and talk to us and and we end up

communicating the love of Christ sometimes we've even had

women that walk out of Planned Parenthood with a brown paper bag and When we see that we know that they've been given the

abortion pill there's been times where the woman comes out with the the bag of pills and

After talking to us, she dumps the pill.

Wow.

And yeah, so there's a number of different ways that it takes place.

But so just just for the effort of apology a church locally.

It's approximately a hundred children say from death.

And then if you then look at what God has done through end abortion now in 2017

We have over 250 churches that have now linked up.

They've gotten the free training and the free resources and they're going out now and it's it's I think near impossible to

calculate at this Point how many children have been saved from death because some of those churches Like one of them is on their 35th

save one had over a hundred and thirty saves.

I'd had a couple come in here yesterday to the studio from Delaware abortion now

an apology a church and They're in Delaware, they've saved five children

Themselves, but this was such a blessing to hear when they started going out.

There were other coming out as a result of

apology a church in our ministry as well.

So Yeah, it's just incredible much

damage.

This has done to the kingdom of darkness.

Now you you have mentioned end abortion now several times and if you could Give us more details

on exactly what end abortion now does.

Sure, so our local abortion mill ministry for apology a church Started

I guess going on four years ago now.

We weren't doing this kind of work before of course, we were pro -life.

But we weren't really doing anything to go out and to save lives.

And so through a course of events, I was really challenged.

We were challenged as a church listening to the testimonies of Christians who were doing this kind of work.

Marcus's film babies are murdered here at which is available on YouTube for free.

Was a big catalyst for us an apology a church to really kick us over the line.

So we started a ministry called the red door ministry and historically Churches had

red doors and that was the place for safety and sanctuary people can come in to escape death.

It's their enemies and they would go to the place of the red door.

And so we called that the red door ministry.

And so we started doing active evangelism our ministry as it

was happening and we would talk about it on a palm.

And just people started getting involved as a result of just hearing our stories.

So at the end of 2016 I had had a vision

to get involved in this

effort.

We knew that it couldn't just be Apology a church or the handful of other sidewalk ministries that were doing it and needed to be a massive

Movement and we knew that churches needed to get involved and needed to be a part of the local churches efforts.

And we wanted to take away every excuse for anybody.

That anybody had to not do this kind of ministry have

the money for it.

It was going to cost you know A lot of money to send kits to churches and materials to hand out and to

give training to get a website.

To there was just so much involved that we just were small church people don't realize that about apology a church if everyone is there All at

once it may be 200 people.

So it's not a very large church kind of got everything set up my.

Our website guy Tim had had built the website and we just sort of like left it

on hold because we go by God's grace that

Has actually helped fund the crisis pregnancy centers in his hometown.

He listened to apology a radio through the recommendation of a friend and he contacted me personally

Out of the blue and he said so, you know, tell me what your your vision is for.

I already know.

He was a great what is it and I'd explained everything that strata don't have the money

and so he said well if you could Have what you needed for it.

What would it cost?

I said, I already know that too, but for a year and Essentially

he he committed to give us $125 ,000 for matching donations and so we

put it before the people of God and I think we were funded within about a month for

2017 and what that allowed us to do in 2017 is really

Start this strategy that we had and the strategy was to number one get the local churches

involved in Justice and mercy missions at their local abortion mills and to speak Prophetically

to their culture around them centered on the gospel around abortion and to their local legislatures.

Not demanding an immediate end to abortion.

We wanted to equip those churches and train those churches give free resources.

We even held a conference in 2017 that was completely for free and we flew out A

number of pastors and leaders from across the country from Alaska to Maine and Florida and California.

We had about a hundred churches represented at this conference and that was just early on

in 2017 and So we provided all that equipping

ready to go we had a Landing zone for churches to come to get training.

So if somebody said we'd say no problem.

We have you taken care of just go to the website and get all the training you need.

And if somebody said well, I don't have the materials necessary to hand out to women we'd say we got you with that.

We're going to pay for your entire kit your signs your tracks your pamphlets and we'll send them to you at no

cost to you so we wanted to remove every obstacle and The other part of the mission was to flood

The internet with media and content that was gospel centered around the issue of abortion.

We knew that the pro -life narrative is Fundamentally flawed in so many ways in terms of how it

pretends neutrality.

In terms of how it doesn't speak philosophically consistent.

It turns the women who who actually have abortions into victims and not perpetrators.

And just as a number of things they're not fighting for the criminalization of abortion

in a consistent way.

And we know that because at the very top of the most reputable respected pro -life

ministries in the world.

We've had conversations with the leadership where they've they've said in no uncertain terms that they are

not seeking to have abortion essentially.

Which is why they're failing because legislate.

Legislatures have to legislate on moral issues.

And if you don't actually have abortion as a moral issue full to you.

You just don't like it.

Legislatures will not legislate against it when the pro -life movement

Abandoned to fight against abortion aspect

needed to be a big part of what we're

doing.

And so we needed to do that.

We needed to change people's minds with media content.

And so we needed to flood the internet.

We also needed to focus on the legislative battle itself by having Christians communicate directly to their

legislatures and Offering

them

to click on it.

It's a simple process.

All they do is put their name and their information in and just hit the button and it sends a pre -made letter To

your local legislature.

Offering them support and demanding immediate justice for the pre -born.

So at this point there have been thousands upon thousands of Christians that have used that service put directly in the

contact with their legislature and so and abortion now was essentially a

movement from Apology at church and this is this is not a separate ministry from apology at church.

It's just apology at church's ministry.

To equip local churches across the country to be involved in saving lives at the mill preaching the gospel

offering help and Communicating to the local legislature in their area to demand an immediate end to

abortion.

And so if I could just say this one last thing on this point.

There's a bit of a different strategy with end abortion now.

We are grateful for God.

Striking straight blows with crooked sticks and and and what I mean by that is Legislation that

has been incremental and focusing on you know, sort of chipping away at the abortion industry, you

know.

And a cleaner abortion facilities, you know.

She's trying to shut him down in that way or lowering the

level of weeks where abortion is is allowed.

You know that we're grateful that God has used that to save lives.

However, we also recognize that we need to

have a can ought to

be fighting against it in terms of what the Bible says about It.

It's murder and we ought to be demanding immediate end to abortion.

And so what we wanted to do was redirect people to how our system

of government is in the United States and what I mean by that is Many of these

pro -life from the very top.

I've been I've talked to the people who are in leadership of all these these organizations.

I've been told by them that they are not seeking an immediate criminalization at a local level

against of the against abortion at some point.

Hopefully overturning Roe v. Wade then the problem with that kind of thinking is that it

goes against I think Consistency in terms of what abortion actually is and how we should be

fighting against it.

But it also violates our own system of government and what I mean by that is courts in our nation.

Cannot make laws that the Congress

creates law not the courts.

And so Roe v. Wade was a court opinion that no state was obligated to

obey to listen to.

And it

there is a

it has never been changed hasn't been

struck down.

Nothing's happened to it abortion is illegal in Arizona right now and anybody who commits it.

Is.

Law isn't upheld or Protected or utilized because we've bought into the fiction

that Roe v. Wade Created a law that subverts the laws of the state.

It didn't not only was Roe v. Wade based upon faulty premises.

They said that what was in the womb was potential human life, but Roe v. Wade was a court

opinion.

So you have states like Idaho right now where

abortion is illegal.

As a matter of fact, Idaho Abortion is called murder on the books currently never

changed so Our approach is fundamentally different from how the pro -life community has been trying to fight against

this where they're saying we want to overturn Roe Vs. Wade.

What we're saying is that's not even how our system of government works.

You don't have to do that the states can exercise their state sovereignty and uphold their own laws and Say to the

to the court the higher courts that is not legislation.

That's a court opinion and we reject it and we can uphold Justice for these children at the state level and we can

do it immediately.

There have been a number of attempts last two years.

One was in Oklahoma.

One was in, Texas.

One was in, Idaho and.

And.

Each and every time and this is the disheartening aspect of all of this this fight each and every

time the greatest Opposition that we've experienced in trying to put folks

and to criminalize abortion.

The greatest opposition has been from as a matter of fact

in, Oklahoma.

Tony Lallinger who's the vice president of national right to life?

They had.

There's a senator and I think named Joseph Silk if I remember his name correctly.

He put legislation in that would have immediately criminalized abortion in the state of Oklahoma.

The pro -life that that legislate that legislature is predominantly pro -life and.

From what we learned from friends that were there the pro -life Legislators that were there

and to get this thing off the ground and it was a predominantly pro

-life legislature she would think well, they actually act at

the National right to life.

Tony Lallinger the vice president.

What should we do Tony?

How do you want us to vote on this and he told them do not vote on this.

Wow.

He said it'll undo all of the pro -life legislation that we put into effect all these years.

Wow, and my my answer to that is well.

Of course it would because it would criminalize abortion completely and this gets to another point Chris.

I know I'm talking a lot here, but this is critical in this whole fight if Roe vs. Wade Was

over if tonight there was a miraculous event where they

said by decree we overturn Roe vs. Wade.

Abortion would now be legal in almost every state.

Tomorrow.

Because of the pro -life legislation that has been that has been Implemented over the years by the pro

-life community.

So what I mean by that is They've they've fought for legislation that says Abortion shall be

illegal except in the case of and then they give restrictions for abortion.

So that gives essentially that that gives a legal right to abortion through

pro -life legislation.

So even if Roe vs. Wade was overturned Abortion is still legal in the states because of pro -life

legislation.

And so the only way you're actually ever going to end Abortion in our nation is number one that has to be a

heart change in our nation.

And the only way that takes place is through the gospel.

It cannot happen through pragmatism.

It cannot happen through mere winning arguments about biology.

It has to take place because our heart the heart of our nation needs to change and that only takes place because of the gospel,

but Beyond that is if

states Exercise their sovereign right to uphold their own laws.

Decree of a court in the 70s that didn't even get

the premises, right?

It was just an opinion and our system of government says that Congress makes laws not the Supreme Court.

And.

We have to go to our first break right now.

If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Jeff Durbin.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

CHRISARNZEN at gmail .com.

Please give us at least your first name your city and state in your country of Residence if you live outside the USA.

And of course you may remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And this is one of those times where I can certainly imagine.

There may be a lot of you who want to remain anonymous when you ask questions about this subject because perhaps you yourself have

had abortions.

Or are.

Contemplating one.

Well, you may feel free to remain anonymous, of course, and we will grant that Request but

other than that if it's just a general question about this subject, please give us your first name city and state and country Of residence that's

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

God willing We'll be right back with more of Jeff Durbin and a blueprint for abortion mill.

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And I hope to see many of you there for the first time as well at my exhibitors booth at the g3 conference.

We are back now with our guest today pastor Jeff Durbin of Apology a church in

Tempe, Arizona.

Also the founder of apology a TV and apology a radio and host of the next week

program.

We are discussing a blueprint for abortion Evangelism and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our

email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

And.

Before we go back to our discussion, we just have a not a question, but a

commendation or note of praise from a listener.

In Suffolk County, Long Island, New York.

Hey, Chris.

Just wanted to send a quick thanks to Jeff and his team for all their work on behalf of the kingdom of God.

It has been a great encouragement and help to our outreach team here at Hope Reform Baptist Church in

Medford, New York.

Here on Long Island both on the streets and at abortion clinics.

Also to you Chris for all your hard work on iron trumpets iron.

Thank you very much Jerry.

In Suffolk County.

Before we go into some of the actual Strategy if you will when you

are Trying to rescue children from being murdered at abortion clinics when you're trying to reach

Primarily the women who are going in there to have their babies murdered before we get into that.

Just a little bit of political banter.

I know that one of your political heroes if I'm sorry if I'm stretching that term too

high, but I know that Ron Paul has been a Someone you look up to in the world of

politics and I know that Ron Paul and his son Rand have taken

a.

State's.

Vote issue on this rather than having this addressed by a federal law.

Prohibiting abortion and some pro -life people have been upset by that.

They've said well, why are you? relegating this to State's rights

when this should be just a federal federal crime.

Period because it's murder.

How do you respond to that?

And what is your opinion in regard to the state's rights level of?

tackling this abortion issue.

Yes.

Yeah, so I think that we are a far far field of where he as

a constitutional Republic a Christian Constitutional Republic actually early on.

And.

We're just we're broken in so many ways and I think that this the question

highlights the Fundamental flaw with the pro -life community is they bought into that

fiction that the federal government Has the power and the say -so here that that was never the

intention of our founding fathers that we would have that sort of a situation it is actually a state's rights

issue and the states have the Obligation I should say that they have the obligation

to protect their citizens and citizens in the womb are still citizens.

They have an obligation to uphold justice and to protect their citizen and what's interesting here.

And this is I think an amazing moment for us to be able to communicate Just the

consistency of this position.

Right now we live in a time where there are states Oregon, Washington, California

Arizona that have actually resisted the federal government and opinion of the federal government on

Say something like marijuana legislation now.

This has nothing to do with your opinion on marijuana.

Just think about it in terms of The the principle the states have said we know that it's against

federal law to have marijuana.

But the states have rejected the the opinion of the federal government.

To essentially protect in their mind the rights of their citizens now again.

Whether you agree with that or not in terms of marijuana and whether that's it's useful or helpful medically.

That's that's not the issue here.

But the point is is the principle these states are standing on like for example Colorado

is that they have a right as a state over their citizen and

their right to their citizens.

And so they've resisted and this is what's amazing to me Chris is they've resisted the federal

government.

And taken a bold in -your -face stance to the federal government and said we're not going to listen to you.

We don't care that it's against federal law.

We're going to establish this for our citizens.

They're allowed to use this substance for medical reasons or whatever and we resist your opinion and they've taken a

bold and courageous stance in doing so and yet we won't do that with abortion and What's

interesting about that is that it's compelling.

These are states Arizona that right now it is illegal

to have an abortion in those states.

It is against the law and it has not been changed and altered.

They they define a human life from conception and they talk about.

Life.

Conception and onward to natural death and they talk about abortion as

Actually a murder charge and homicide.

And it's never been changed and they're still on the books and the state's just don't have the courage right

now to uphold their own.

State.

Just statutes in opposition to the federal government's really corrupt opinion and decree on this.

But it has to be a state's rights issue.

And again, I just want to highlight this again for anybody.

That's just now joining in on the discussion.

Right now if you if you overturn Roe v. Wade.

It's still legal tomorrow.

Abortion is still legal tomorrow because of the pro -life legislation that's been added over the years that essentially protects

abortion at the state level to focus on overturning the

opinion of the Supreme Court a.

That's not how our system of government works.

Congress makes laws not the Supreme Court.

And and and be because the pro -life legislation has protected abortion at the state level if you overturn

Roe v. Wade It doesn't matter.

It's still legal tomorrow.

So it the only way it can be ended again is a heart change in our nation and through consistent

Legislative battle where we actually call abortion what it is.

I'll point everyone to something I after I discovered what was happening in Oklahoma with this

consistent legislation with Senator Joseph Silk and Tony Lowinger the vice president of national right to

life who was Resisting that bill and he communicated to the pro -life legislatures legislators not to

not to support it.

I Sat down and I had an interview with Tony Lowinger and that interview is up on YouTube.

Just type in Jeff Durbin Tony Lowinger.

And you'll see the full like 30 -minute interview I did with him and I wanted to let I there's so

much that I wanted to say to him.

But I wanted to give the man the opportunity to express his views on this issue.

And so what you'll see in an interview is one of the leaders in the pro -life movement worldwide.

Saying that they are not fighting to have abortion considered murder.

He he said explicitly that they but he believed that we needed to fight against abortion.

And take a back and that was what he said a backdoor approach and what he meant by that is.

Not use the Christian worldview not use Christian terminology.

Don't call people to repentance and faith.

He said backdoor approach.

We need to play a neutral position in this and that's just fundamentally flawed and and I think

every Christian can recognize That there is no ability to have someone's heart changed or the heart of your nation

Changed if you don't make it about the gospel if you don't call out sin as sin and the

pro -life movement Fundamentally will not do that.

They call women who have abortions and they do not consider them.

They will not work towards legislation that calls abortion murder.

I think there are a lot of theological reasons the pro -life movement in many

in many respects is being led by the Roman Catholic community and there are a lot of Theological reasons as to why

they don't want abortion called murder because we get to issues of mortal sin and things like that.

And that would do a lot of damage to their membership if if many of the women were were guilty of mortal sin in that way.

So they will not fight against it consistently.

They won't fight against it philosophically Consistently biblically consistently nor legislatively

Consistently and I hate to put myself Chris in opposition to people who have worked so hard to save

lives and I don't want to be seen as somebody who's not grateful for all The work people have done to save you from a one life.

But in terms of where we're at now, and I think it's important for us to ask the

question as Christians.

Is this biblical is it consistent and does it even work?

And I think that the way that pro -life movement is approached at the answer is no no and no.

Wow, you've Enlightened me to something about the Roman Catholic view of this that I was totally unaware

of before as far as anything being negative.

About their approach to the pro -life movement because they are known to be champions of it Even before

Protestants were involved publicly anyway, but I'm going to pick this up where we left off

and we have to go to our break.

Right now this is a longer break than normal because grace life radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida Requires

a 12 -minute break between our two hours.

So I hope that you're all you are all patient with us.

And please take this time to write in your questions.

I have several of you already waiting for your questions to be asked and answered.

But if you'd like to join them our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen a gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Jeff Durbin and a blueprint for abortion mill.

Evangelism.

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Before I return to Jeff Durbin for the remainder of our interview on a blueprint

for abortion mill evangelism we just have a couple of brief announcements.

First of all the aforementioned g3 conference is Returning to Atlanta, Georgia

from January 17th through the 20th and That's just in a couple of weeks and I am so excited about

returning to this wonderful conference.

The theme this month and this year is knowing God a biblical understanding of

discipleship and The three G's in case you're wondering stands for grace gospel and glory.

The roster includes such phenomenal preachers and speakers as Stephen Lawson Vodie Baucom

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That's the 17th through the 20th.

The 17th actually begins with a Spanish speaking edition of the conference during the daytime and

then in the evening on Wednesday January 17th, our friend. Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega

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He will launch that English edition by debating a Muslim apologist and then on

Thursday January 18th is when the actual English speaking conference begins and

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on the air now we are back to our discussion with Jeff Durbin on a blueprint

for abortion mill evangelism and You can also send us questions To that

last email address.

I gave you Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris ARN z en at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name city and state and country of residence unless you are asking about a very personal and private matter.

So one last thing I wanted to say about the Ron and Rand Paul issue

about being pro -life, but believing that this should be in the hands of States

rights rather than a federal issue.

I was surprised to learn when it was because I actually had a knee -jerk reaction to

that when I first heard it and I was somewhat upset by their approach but then I began doing more

research of my own and I have since become more of a Christian libertarian than I used to be and.

I.

Was surprised to learn that murder.

Unless it is under very rare circumstances only a handful of circumstances murder is

a state crime.

It's not a federal crime and I did not know that before.

Yeah.

Right.

I think the truth is as many of us haven't thought

About this like in depth.

We generally know as Christians that were pro -life.

Well, of course, we know that God Psalm 139 knits us together in our mother's womb.

We know that we're fearfully and wonderfully made of course the scriptures teach us, you know, fundamentally in Ten

Commandments You shall not murder.

We have examples in Scripture and the law of God and Exodus where you have a

pre -born Child in the womb and there's a case law example given there if men are fighting and they cause a

miscarriage and that baby dies.

You know that the Bible does talk about this and even from the earliest stages of the church

and I'm talking like second century Christians were developing creeds and

Traditions doctrinal traditions to respond to cultural things happening around them and from the

very inception of the church first century into the second century Christians had to respond to

abortifacient To abortions that were happening in their society and one of the earliest Christian

creeds and traditions confessions Was specifically had specifically addressed abortion.

So so yes, but historically and of course biblically We can see that

that the doctrine Surrounding protecting the life of the of the pre -born

all of that is is obvious.

But but I don't think that many of us have thought beyond the general idea

We need to protect the pre -born children.

Of course, we're pro -life as Christians so we haven't thought these like long and hard and deep thoughts about the

legislative aspect and I think many of us have just taken for granted and I might say many of us I mean me

I was of course pro -life.

Since I've been a believer and and I preach sermons against abortion before I was ever on the streets

Fighting against it and trying to save lives or doing anything like we're doing with an abortion now.

And so yes, I was there but but thinking that the hard thoughts about

Consistency just taking for granted the pro -life movements general party line

About abortion in terms of just needing to overturn Roe vs. Wade, you know, it's a federal

issue.

Not thinking those thoughts has has has been damaging to us and our witness and to our effect.

Um, you know It's interesting last year

Metro UK and the New York Post Published articles about yours truly

I think one of them said he wants to give the death penalty

to women who have abortions or something like that.

Of course, it's a punchy Line to get people to click so it's clickbait,

but definitely not it.

So a I'm not a hipster and B I don't want to kill anybody.

But.

Thinking these hard thoughts about abortion in terms of what is it?

Well biblically speaking and legally speaking It's murder.

Taking the life of another human being with malice of forethought is murder in

every case.

And so when we think about it's the taking of another human's life in an

unjust manner with malice of forethought that is Murder.

Biblically speaking it is we think about the legislative aspect and I mentioned this earlier

on Chris and this is this is vitally important to get if we go to the legislature in

our area and we say a Bikki, we don't

like it and the legislature says, okay, but why?

Well, just because just because it goes against your tradition and your Family values because just

relation on personal likes and dislikes like, you know.

We can't have legislation that says chocolate ice cream is better than vanilla ice cream because you happen to like that.

That's not how legislation works.

It has to be a moral issue.

It has to be an issue of justice.

All legislation is ultimately moral and in some part and so if we do what the pro

-life movement is has Generally been involved in doing and we say things like we just want abortion to stop.

The legislature has a right to ask why what is it now?

What's interesting is you've got people like Milo Yiannopoulos, he is a

He is a in many ways vile out

weirdly homosexual conservative advocate.

And he Milo Yiannopoulos Who is hard to listen to sometimes because it's how vile he is.

But also other times like wow, that's compelling.

You're more courageous than many Christians are.

He calls it murder.

When you look at the last Election cycle you had the governor of New Jersey

Chris Christie on the stage at the presidential debate.

You had you had him saying publicly abortion is murder.

So it's interesting.

You've got like this homosexual at this homosexual this governor of New Jersey saying publicly.

This is murder.

You've got Ben Shapiro conservative advocate.

Ben Shapiro brilliant mind.

I love I love Ben Shapiro.

Yeah, Ben Shapiro.

He's.

He's tremendous and he calls it murder.

But what's compelling is these people aren't professing Christians and they're saying it's

murder.

But the pro -life movement resists using the language of murder.

They won't talk about it in terms of murder.

So the question has to be asked as a legislator if this isn't murder.

If it's not ultimately a moral issue to that degree then what have I to legislate against.

I can't do it off your personal Likes and dislikes so the pro -life movement says that legislatively.

We just won't want this to end.

Legislators don't legislate against it because it's just your personal preference now if it's murder and it is if

it's malice of forethought If it's the unjustified taking of another human life Then they can legislate against it.

And so that's that's an important question asked and yes.

And this is something that that I think Christians when they've seen me say it or heard me say it

Have had to had to sort of like raise an eyebrow go.

Hmm.

That's I haven't thought about that before.

But yes in the future if we do this consistently as Christians and Legislatively if we

call abortion murder if human life begins at conception and it does biblically speaking and biologically speaking.

That's an Indisputable fact it just cannot be refuted if it's a human life from conception.

What do we call the taking of another human life in an unjustified way with malice of forethought?

We call that murder.

And so yes, we do want consistent legislation that criminalizes abortion and

Penalizes penalizes anybody that would actually engage in the act.

That's the only way to have effective legislation against abortion.

So.

Yes, the discussion needs to take place at the state level.

Well, what kind of penalties would be given in Arizona right now?

The law says abortion is illegal and it's a five -year prison sentence if you have an abortion in Arizona.

So each state, of course will probably have to work on legislatively.

What's the penalty for malice of forethought taken of the life of a preborn child?

Many states in the United States Have the death penalty capital punishment for murder.

I do personally believe that God's Word is clear from beginning to end that It's life for

life.

If you take the life of a human being in an unjustified way It is capital punishment, but the states will have to

determine that as we go along.

But I think legislatively we have to start calling it murder.

And we have to start asking our legislature to to actually uphold justice by having

legislation that says that this is murder.

It's homicide.

Amen.

And one thing that boils my blood more than anything it even boils my blood I think

more than the open Advocate of murdering children

who is unashamed about it.

I really get sickened when I hear these political Candidates like Tim Kaine and others who

will say oh I am personally opposed to abortion I'm a Roman Catholic or I'm this or I'm that

but I still think it's a woman's right to choose.

Now that is the most ridiculous position out of all of them because you're saying I believe it's murder.

But hey, don't let me stop you from doing it, right?

Right.

Yeah, and that's I think one of the challenging things that we had to face as we've engaged in this ministry is

Is listening to the inconsistence and and I don't want to create

any enemies by saying this but I believe there are many people unfortunately that a pro -life

In their political stance when they get elected they run on a pro -life platform, but they don't really do anything to actually

end abortion.

Through their their work as a political candidate or Or

governor or anything like that?

When you when you think about some of the things that they say it's disheartening.

I think you can go to YouTube or our apology of studios page on Facebook and there is a

live stream that we did we held a political town hall in

Moscow, Idaho.

With I think three was a three or is it two to two of the gubernatorial

candidates in?

In Idaho and it was powerful because both these men were professing pro

-life in their stance and What was interesting is when the men who were hosting this

discussion this town hall pressed them on the issue one of them would not call

it murder and He was pro -life, but he essentially was acting like I just said, it's just uncomfortable.

We really want it to end.

But he wasn't really willing to do anything running on a pro -life platform to actually end abortion.

He was just saying as a political preference.

I'm pro -life and if you ask, what does that mean?

What are you gonna do to actually end abortion now?

His answer was ultimately nothing now.

Thankfully the other candidates we were able to push him to consistency he did call it murder

and I asked him if he would be willing to support a local magistrate who

Banned abortion in that city or municipality and he said he would as a governor, which I thought was amazing.

That's the kind of boldness that we need.

And so, you know you hear often pro -life candidates and governors and

legislators.

Who will constantly say they're pro -life, but they don't do anything to actually end abortion.

And so one of the and this gets to you talk about a blue a blueprint.

We know that what we have to do is have a large grassroots movement of Christians

at the local church level that work together with their respective communities to speak to their local

legislatures.

Offering them support to take bold moves and demanding

Commitments and they uphold justice for these fatherless children that they actually do something to end abortion at the state level.

So we know that yes, it's helpful to go to the abortion mills and save lives that needs to take place.

We know that it is helpful to have media and content that just Floods the internet to try to change the

heart and mind of the culture through the gospel.

That's important.

But the other aspect of this is we need to have Christians re -examine

the foundations of our fight.

Should we play neutrality?

Should we as Tony Lowinger says The vice president of national right to life should we take a backdoor approach and

not use Christian terminology?

Should we avoid talking about the Christian message when talking about abortion, which is what his position is?

We we have to think these hard thoughts about how do we actually work to

end?

Abortion because it's not going to take place Through the the way that we've been doing it.

I remember that I was Chris I was talking to somebody who's been a big supporter of ours for a long time.

This is somebody who is very very very well known In the state of Arizona

and she is the head of a Christian lobbyist group She's hated by the left

in Arizona.

There was a time where she was actually holed up in a building hiding because they were basically

coming for her life.

And.

I've spent a lot of time with her a good relationship.

But I talked to her at one point on the phone about helping us with the message of end

abortion now.

And she told me that she could not and I said well, well, why not you're you know The largest Christian

lobbyist group in Arizona.

You're working on legislation that is consistent with a Christian worldview.

Why would you not and she said Jeff?

I can't support what you're doing and saying because you're calling abortion murder.

Wow, he said I have too many Christian sister had abortions in

their past and I simply cannot say they're guilty of murder.

Now this is the head of the largest Christian lobbyist lobby group in Arizona who works to get

legislation Implemented.

She's at the state capitol virtually every day and she

position in this respect.

They will not fight against it as though it's murder and to immediately criminalize and

part of that battle as a blueprint is is actually Educating Christians on

what is consistent and what is ultimately? The right strategy for the legal battle.

I have to say this and I again I hate I Hate to make myself an enemy of or to create

hostility between me and the pro -life movement.

But I have to our greatest opposition in many

respects.

We're gonna go to our final break.

It's gonna be much briefer than those previous breaks and if you'd like to join us on the air while you still have time our

email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com and I'm going to forward you right now Jeff.

An email from our listener Joey in Clifton, New Jersey.

So that you could look at that during the break and respond to it when we return from the break.

If anybody else would like to join us get online as quickly as you can before we run out of time.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with the conclusion of our interview with Jeff Durbin.

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If you haven't already This is the final half hour of our interview today with Jeff

Durbin pastor of apology a church in Tempe, Arizona and founder of apology a TV and apology a radio

and Host of the next week program and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question do it before we

run out of time our email address is Chris Arndt's in at gmail .com and Before the break

pastor Jeff.

I forwarded you an email from Joey in Clifton, New Jersey.

And he says hi Jeff regarding pro -life legislation.

Being problematic would an example be the kind of legislation that limits the term of the

abortion.

So for example, I'm trying to eliminate late term Abortions we effectively

legislate earlier term abortions if so, I understand your point.

But given our environment it is difficult to argue that this has not saved

lives.

Could this be analogous to saving lives on the battlefield even though not optimal

for The war and he has one more question that I will address after you finish responding to that.

Sure.

Yeah, I think it's an excellent question.

So I really appreciate the question Joey and yes, you you have it.

Right when you have pro -life legislation that says no abortions are allowed

past the 20 -week mark that's what that's a kind of Local pro -life legislation

that I'm referring to that would keep abortion legal at the state level if Roe v. Wade were overturned.

Because it's legislation that's been implemented at the state level that essentially Says that abortion is

legal as long as it's not past 20 weeks.

There's another thing that could be said about that.

What's interesting is when we have Pro -life legislation that does that say a ban on abortions

past 20 weeks.

Well, the vast majority of abortions take place at lower levels than that.

And so that doesn't really put a dent in the amount of abortions that are taking place.

And so it's problematic in that sense.

It's not actually covering the vast majority of abortions that take place.

But yeah, that's what I'm referring to now.

This is really important and it's it's interesting no matter how many times you say it.

It does get missed and it may just be my communicating it.

But I.

Used the old line from Cornelius Vantill that you know, God strikes straight blows with crooked sticks.

I don't believe we should continue using crooked sticks though, just because God can do that.

Yes.

These incremental legislative fights have been used to save lives and I've said this

so many times.

I am so grateful that God has done that that he saved lives.

Incremental legislation, however I don't believe that.

We can ultimately work to

end abortion if it is the taking of a human life with malice aforethought.

If it's murder, then that has to be a con and so

yes.

There have live there have been lives that have been saved and we're grateful for that.

But we we don't want another 60 million babies murdered over the next 20 years or 30

years.

We'd like to see abortion ended abolished criminalized immediately and the only way to do that is to be

consistent and it's to be consistent Christian in an accretion way in a Philosophical way and in a legislative

way and so yes lives have been saved.

However, we have to ask the question What's ultimately going to end abortion and it's it's not going to be ended

through inconsistent incremental legislation.

And then further buttressing that point is that it's this incremental legislation

that will keep abortion legal when and if Roe v. Wade.

And Joe's second question is what would a state's right solution be with the existence

of Roe versus Wade?

Can you give an example?

Absolutely as an example.

See Idaho.

We're talking about Idaho.

Idaho right now.

Abortion is called murder.

It's on the books.

It's against the law.

They allow abortions because of Roe v. Wade.

What a state could do that already has Pre -made legislation that's current on the books against

abortion calling it murder.

Defining human life from the moment of conception is the state would only need to point to that law and

Uphold it and resist the opinion of Roe now.

That would take courage.

Yes, it would take boldness.

It would take risks.

It would take courage.

Of course it would.

But as a question might be coming

you already have states like Colorado, Washington, Oregon, California, Arizona.

That are already resisting the federal government's opinion on legislation against

marijuana.

They've taken bold steps to resist the federal government on an issue like marijuana.

Which is so compelling to me, but we won't take that kind of bold stand.

He's fatherless, so all we would need

to do at a state level is Legislation that defines human life

from conception.

Many of the states already have that.

And.

Offer legislation that criminalizes the the taking of a human life with malice of forethought to include abortion

and All we would need to do is have the state's uphold that legislation and just resist the federal government

one.

Really, I think powerful moment in the last year was in Texas this last year

there was legislation Put in.

What was his name?

I forget the gentleman's name.

I think it was maybe it was tender Holt or something to that effect.

Well, basically he was pointing to the law that's already in the books That defines human life as from conception

that would criminalize abortion as murder.

But this is really powerful in the legislation that was submitted it was upholding essentially, Texas state law as it

was.

Nothing really spectacular.

It said that if the federal government Attempted to bring

the state of Texas into court over the issue After they've criminalized abortion. It said

that the legislators in Texas are not allowed to show up to court.

That was the legislation that was Suggested was that if the federal government does

try to strike down Anything then Texas has no obligation to show up in court to defend itself

because they have the right sovereign right to uphold justice at the state

level and the Supreme Court's Opinion is not a law in the first place.

So they were even saying we reject the federal government's attempt to strike down.

What we're saying at the state level when it comes to protecting human life.

Well, thank you very much.

Joey in Clifton, New Jersey.

Keep listening to iron sharpens iron radio and submitting excellent questions.

Let's get to more of what we were supposed to be addressing today as specifically the blueprint for

abortion mill evangelism.

I Want you to really start with.

What should you not say when you're standing in front of an abortion mill?

Well going to the abortion mill, it's ugly hard.

Ministry, it is not the kind of ministry like Homeless ministry where you're going to give somebody food and they give you a big

hug afterwards.

You're providing socks and a blanket for them where they're just gonna really be gracious and thank you.

This is ugly ministry.

It is not easy ministry.

It is very difficult.

You could you're going to be cussed out.

You're going to be yelled at you're going to be resisted.

So that's the context of it.

I think it's important for us when we go there to not be neutral to not pretend neutrality.

One of the Couple things one is if you're going out there to be abusive in any way

if there's animosity in your heart towards these mothers and fathers if there's Anything within

you that is that is corrupt as you approach this issue.

I would say you need to work on your heart and ask God to change your heart and don't go.

You cannot be abusive out you cannot be abusive out there.

You cannot be unloving out there.

You need to be compassionate.

You need to be truthful.

Of course, you need to be kind you need to demonstrate love and concern for these mothers and fathers.

Do not be abusive.

I would say if you enjoy if you enjoy the cutting

nature of this message.

And and it's something that you actually enjoy telling women.

I would say don't go to the abortion mill.

And then on the other side of it in terms of not being abusive and the other side of it I think it's important for us to be very

truthful.

So I have seen Roman Catholics going out to the abortion mill.

They they walk around the abortion mill.

Praying the Rosary praying to Mary not saying a word to the women.

So I would say definitely don't do that.

Mary's not listening and that's not helpful at all.

The the other aspect of it is going to the abortion mill and and calling out to the women.

It's important that you do tell the truth.

So I've seen people go to the abortion mill and they have such a love and compassion and concern for these women.

That they say things like God forgives you God loves you.

I've seen women show up to the abortion mill with balloons.

With signs that say God loves you and he forgives you and and and what I want to say is yes

in Christ.

You'll be forgiven.

And yes, God is a God of love.

However in that moment we've seen it over and over and over again when those women are going in there.

They've been trying to satiate their consciences for a week.

They have been trying to resist and suppress what God has been testifying to them for that week and they are going in

there.

Banking on God's love and forgiveness.

I I've I've seen countless times women say to us as they're going in God will

forgive me for what I'm about to do.

So when you go in there and you remind them God is just a God of love he loves you and he forgives you anyways.

When you say that to them, that's what they're banking on.

You just help them to go through with it.

So we need to go there and tell the truth we can't try to manipulate

these women and these men and Try to essentially toy with their conscience.

We and that is that this is your child.

You're already a mother.

You're already a father.

You're going to murder your child today.

Please don't murder your child today.

So when we go there what I often try to tell people is

mercy, but tell them the truth.

You have to say this is your child.

You're not going to leave here.

No longer a mother.

You're gonna leave here the mother and father of a dead child.

So we we tell the truth first and foremost.

This is murder.

Please don't murder your child and then we give them the gospel, but that hopefully that answers that first part of your question.

Yes, in fact, the listener has an excellent follow -up.

BB in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

Asks what were the words used for the predominant number of

women? who changed their minds while walking into an abortion clinic or while walking

out with the abortifacient drugs that they Dumped out.

Is there any? Typical thing that has been said to them or is it a wide variety of things that have been said

that actually were used of God to convince them to Reverse their decision of murder.

That's a very helpful question.

So I really appreciate that question.

What I'll do first is I want to point everyone who's listening to apology of studios on YouTube and

Somewhere fairly recently in the videos just go to videos and look in the more recent.

I think the title of it is something like baby saved at abortion mill or something like that.

And it's me and I'm wearing like a beanie or something and I think I had sunglasses on so that'll be in the thumbnail.

And it's about a 30 -minute message.

I was actually I'm getting over the flu right now.

I was sick then to.

Ninjas do not get the flu.

What are you talking about?

So, yeah, I've actually had a horrible night last night with the flu but in this in this video I was really sick.

You can hear me.

I'm super congested I would say please listen to that because that is that is the

message that goes out and after that preaching that day at this Abortion mill in Kentucky.

There was at least one baby saved After that that preaching so please listen to that for a full

explication, but the message is very simple.

One we tell the truth.

We call it murder.

We plead with them not to murder their child.

We want that to be used by God to prick their conscience.

With that's an image bearer of God.

They know what they're doing.

They've told us they know what they're doing over and over again.

I know this is murder.

I should be able to murder my child.

So we point them back to what it is.

We plead with them not to murder their child.

We don't say we don't go out there and say you're a murderer.

We don't do that.

We plead with them.

Please don't murder your child today, man.

This is your baby.

God has blessed you with please Don't murder your child today and then after really bringing the law of God to them

to hopefully bring some conviction.

We then point them to Christ.

That's the second part of the message.

We preach the gospel.

We tell them about the message of Jesus the forgiveness They can have in turning away from sin and coming to Christ and the third

part is we say we'll help you.

What do you need from us?

We'll give you anything you need.

Do you need medical services?

We'll bring you to a location to get those.

Do you need shelter?

We'll help you to get that.

Do you need financial assistance?

Do you need cribs diapers?

What do you need?

We'll take care of all that and we even say we'll adopt your child.

We'll take care of everything.

So it's a three -part message one.

Tell the truth.

This is murder plead with them not to do it second Preach the gospel and third offer to help them with

whatever they need as they turn away from that place.

So that's that's what we move through and it does become rather difficult Chris.

When someone pulls into the abortion mill and they get out of their vehicle with their boyfriend or husband and they're wearing

sweats.

They're told to wear, you know, white clothing and sweats when they go in for the surgical abortion.

So we know that they're there for the abortion when they come dressed like that.

We have sometimes about 20 to 30 seconds from

to communicate though.

And it's hard because you got it.

You got it.

You got to go through that.

Don't murder your child.

God will forgive you in Christ if you turn from your sin and will help you will adopt your child.

So we run through those three things we plead with them.

We really lay our hearts out for these women and these men and we just we were begging them.

To preserve the life of their child, but that's fundamentally it.

There's nothing spectacular and Chris and me or our team.

We're not mighty and just incredible amazing orators and and just something special about us.

It's just the message the message of the gospel penetrates and changes hearts and minds.

God's truth changes people and that's what we go out there with.

And we have CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York who asks are women

typically making professions of faith in Christ when you convince them not to murder their

children.

Or are sometimes they just responding to the Scientific and medical data

that reveals the truth about this horrific act.

So the answer to that last part there is no the scientific evidence and

discussion Does not change hearts and minds as a matter of fact.

When we go to the abortion notes.

And one of the things is that's that's off about the pro -life narrative is they say that we just need to convince women that this Is an actual

child.

It's their baby.

No.

That is not the case.

When we go to the abortion mill these women tell us I know it's my baby.

I have a right to murder my child.

I can kill my child if I want.

They know it's their baby.

There's no question about that.

And so it's it's not about the scientific evidence because even if you demonstrate

scientifically.

Biologically, which we do and we can that it's a human being from conception.

It's their baby.

You demonstrate all of that they'll still say afterwards so what I can say I need to kill this child.

And so so I would say that's really really important to get.

What was the first part of the question Chris?

I forget.

Well, did you do these women typically make professions of faith in Christ?

Yeah.

So there are times where we'll be preaching to the women and they'll

they'll come out of the abortion mill in tears and just stare at us and listen to us while we're calling out to them.

And there are times where they'll come Up to us and they'll just tell us thank you for being here today.

I'm not going to go through with this.

Thank you so very much, and they'll just bolt and they'll leave.

There are other times where they will come up to us.

We'll create a relationship with them and have an extended period of time to administer to them to talk to them to bless

them.

My wife has been in conversations before with with a particular woman where she was going to kill her

child through the Medication.

My wife was able to talk her out of it.

She talked to her for weeks afterwards.

There are times I think Nationally some amazing

stories of people who have come to Christ At the abortion mill have turned away from killing their children and

now they are out with the church.

Actually now involved in the same ministry.

Wow, praise God, let me Now let me a follow -up on something you said

about women not caring about the medical and Scientific realities

I can remember back in the 1980s.

The woman who led me to Christ back in the 1980s had a friend who was a crack

addict.

And this woman was counseled by her doctor to get an abortion because the doctor was

convinced that this baby Would be deformed or there would be something terribly wrong with it.

My friend sat down with this woman with a Book, it wasn't even about

abortion.

It was a the photographic evidence or the photographic

Technology that had evolved by that time and of course, we're even talking about the 1980s.

So it's not even what it is today, but it was it was basically a book of beautiful Photographs

full -color photographs of the development of human life in the womb.

When she sat with her with this book and the woman did not have an abortion as a result of that

and she Came determined she gave birth to a perfectly healthy Normal, baby.

So how do you respond to that in regard to what you just said before?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I want to make sure I'm clear on that.

And this is this important we do go out there and we do have pamphlets that talk about the development of a child in the

Womb, we do have pictures of children in the womb.

We do have pictures of aborted children.

To testify to the women about what they're doing and to remind them to just sort of point them back

to what they're suppressing.

They know this is their child.

What I was referring to and maybe I just misunderstood the question.

What I was referring to is when somebody is opposed to us and they're trying to argue for

their right to abortion the scientific evidence and the biological evidence

Doesn't convince them because they're committed to abortion and when you when you demonstrate to them

Irrefutably that this is a human life from conception and here's all the development of the child.

And so in terms of the opposition.

Using the scientific and biological evidence doesn't convince people morally

however, and I want to make sure I'm clear on this.

God has used he absolutely has used the testimony of the developing child in the

lives of some of the women going in who are conflicted and they're about to go through with it and then they see the picture of this

child in the womb and it reminds them Of what they already know and God does use those signs to

actually turn people away.

And I want to say that and this is important.

We hate the graphic signs.

We hate them.

I hate holding them I think um, I really struggle with them myself.

But God has used those graphic images to turn many people away from from the abortion mill who are

gonna have an abortion.

And so we try to use all of those things, but but the aim of it all.

All of that stuff is used to buttress.

Amen.

And we have an anonymous listener who says I am actively involved

in pro -life Events and so on and I am strongly

opposed to abortion as murder.

I have been to several print shops to get t -shirts made that I have

designed.

That have a beautiful picture of an unborn child on the front of the t -shirt and it says life on The

back of the t -shirt.

I wanted to have an aborted baby who had been murdered and have murder written above it.

I cannot find any print shop that will print this t -shirt.

Do you have any advice and counsel on this?

Sure, I think that.

Find a Christian print shop.

So I think if you find a print shop owned by Christians.

Do you happen to know of any.

Because obviously that wouldn't necessarily matter if they were local you could probably Email somebody a

graphic image.

Yeah, yeah, I think that let's see here.

I know that there's a Christian company called mission aware.

Mission aware does t -shirts.

You might be able to contact mission aware and have them produce that for you.

Let's see here.

I think I think there's a company called og apparel.

It's a Christian Apparel and print company og apparel.

We have some friends over there.

They've got some great stuff high quality stuff.

They should be able to help you as well.

And it's some if you just if you send me a message Contact at a

Apology at church .com.

Maybe I can try to look around and find something local to you but you may have to you may have to just call a Christian print company or

apparel company and it just Talk to them and have them do it for you.

You can definitely find somebody that's willing to do it now.

I know that some of my listeners are going to roll their eyes because they've heard me say this many times but one thing that

I'm baffled by is Why aren't more conservative individuals in the

media like those who profess to be on Fox News?

Why aren't they insisting and even political candidates themselves that are pro -life?

Why are they not insisting that at least every election cycle that there be a

televised? abortion.

So that people can vote with intelligence with an education about what's going on.

I'm amazed that to my knowledge Fox News has never aired one.

I was amazed years ago when Pat Buchanan was running for president and he was a guest

on a radio program That was being aired on the station.

I worked for and I called in it was a live call -in show and I said to Pat Buchanan

Why is it that nobody seems to be insisting or even just moving forward with themselves

purchasing airtime to air an abortion so people really know what know what's going on just as

Those who really were convinced of what happened during the Holocaust in Nazi Germany many people didn't believe

it until they saw those newsreels when they saw the the mountains of Skeletal bodies and

so on and they saw that the ovens were being opened up and the remains of human beings in there.

But many people did not believe until that was available on film and I was

shocked that Pat Buchanan said to me.

Said to everybody on the air Well, we wouldn't want to do that.

That would be like televising an execution and I said, yeah, that's my point.

What what are your thoughts about that?

What I said to Pat Buchanan and his response.

Well, I think that that goes to the heart of I think the problem is pro -life.

Legislators will say I'm pro -life I'm a runoff a pro -life campaign because they know that's where they'll get their

votes.

Christians will vote for someone that says that they're going to end abortion and so they stand on that position.

But they don't act consistently with it.

They don't treat it as.

Like what it is.

It's murder and if you truly believe that it's murder then you're going to do the kind of thing that you're talking about.

You're going to expose it.

You're going to show the graphic images.

You're going to testify to what is actually going on.

You know, we have lots of pictures of the Holocaust the dead bodies piled on top of one another.

They're sick the sickly bodies and the broken bodies of these Jewish these these Jewish people.

Who were just tortured and murdered and we have that as a matter of historic? historical

record that we use to constantly testify to the evil of that institution and that moment and

and and Inhuman history and experience and we use it to I think

Inoculate people from that kind of practice ever again in the future.

And so yes, I think that the graphic images are absolutely necessary.

And what I will point people to and I'll warn you ahead of time I want to make sure that I make this very very clear.

This is not easy to see but it needs to be seen if you go to abortion

know Org it's the Center for bioethical reform abortion.

No Org, there's a video that comes up on the front page and it gives you a

warning ahead of time and it says graphic video starting in like five seconds and it's actual it's it's

footage of actual abortions taking place and I it's not.

I'm not comfortable watching that it's not easy to watch.

But that does need to be seen and we need to make sure that other people see that so I would be all for A

pro -life legislator who's running a campaign?

Putting that video or video like it on their website to testify to the reality of abortion.

It needs to be something that's not hidden.

Yeah, amen.

And it's it's a really double.

It's a clear example of a double standard there.

Because you have people you would never have somebody publicly saying.

Oh, we should never show those old newsreels of the victims of the Holocaust.

You would be viewed as a racist or a nut or something if you were to say that and yet.

Even pro -life people are saying.

Oh, no, don't do that.

That's that's over -the -top.

That's crazy.

You don't don't show those.

Yeah, it does speak Chris to the inconsistency That we see I think in all of us but in terms of

approaching this to say let's fix it Let's reform it the inconsistency in a pro -life movement as we we don't often

Treat it as what it actually is murder.

We don't act like it's murder.

We don't do what it takes to end it because it's murder.

X unfortunately, it becomes like a click you're you're involved in I'm pro -life and you ask what does that actually mean?

What consequence is there because you're pro -life?

How does it affect the future and the answer many times is well not really or not enough

or nothing?

Substantial and so I think that we ought to really act like this is what it is.

And that means we're going to have to show it at times.

We're going to use graphic images.

We're going to call it what it is we're going to make sure that we say the hard truth at times to people that we

care about and and Yeah, it's it's it's a lot of work ahead of us, but it's going to take

courage Chris.

I Realized that it's going to take a lot of courage from Christians.

It's going to take a lot of persecution and it'll take a lot of Boldness on the part of

legislators to do what it's actually right and to take bold stance.

And I know that your websites are apology at church .com Apology at church .com and also

apology a studios .com apology studios.

Calm.

Thank you so much Jeff Durbin.

I would appreciate if you could hold on the line so I could say a proper goodbye to you.

But when you go off the air and I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who wrote in I apologize to everybody.

Still waiting to have their questions asked and answered.

We'll have Jeff back on God willing in the future and you can have your questions asked and answered then.

Hopefully I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior

than you are.

A sinner.