January 4, 2018 Show with Jeff Durbin on “A Blueprint for Abortion Mill Evangelism”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this fourth day of January 2018, and I'm so delighted to have back as a returning guest somebody who

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I truly love interviewing when those opportunities arise, and that is Jeff Durbin, pastor of Apologia Church in Tempe, Arizona.

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He is also the founder of Apologia TV and Apologia Radio, and he's also hosting a television program called

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Next Week Now, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Jeff Durbin.

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Well, thank you, Chris. I always love being on the show with you. Yeah, and today we are going to be talking about a very important subject, a blueprint for abortion mill evangelism, and so if you know anybody that's contemplating an abortion, or if you know anybody that is involved in abortion mill evangelism themselves or with their congregations or parachurch ministries, please email them, text them, tweet them, or call them to have them listen to the program on ironsharpensironradio .com.

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And before I go into the subject with you, Pastor Jeff, let our listeners who are discovering you for the first time, let them know something about Apologia Church.

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Sure, so Apologia Church was started, we're coming up on our eighth birthday at the end of February, started at a drug and alcohol rehab facility.

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I was the chaplain there. It's one of the oldest rehab hospitals in Arizona, and so I was a pastor at a church in Phoenix while I was also chaplain at this hospital, and God called us to plant

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Apologia Church to care for all the people that were coming to Christ out of addiction, and to care for them and disciple them.

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So that was about eight years ago, and since that time, God has grown our church spiritually, numerically,

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God's used us in tremendous ways, and across a wide variety of issues.

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Abortion is one of those issues. Mormon, as we do a lot of outreach, we're very, very committed to getting into the marketplace, into the town square, with the message of the gospel, and so it has been a tremendous eight years of a pretty powerful opportunity with Apologia Radio, Apologia TV.

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These things are teaching arms of Apologia Church and outreach arms. Apologia Radio had about a million downloads last year, and just with all the other content

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God has allowed us to be able to communicate the literally all over the planet in so many different countries, and it's just been a tremendous blessing.

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Well, praise God. Well, how can people listen to Apologia Radio and watch Apologia TV? Yeah, so the landing spot pretty much for everything is

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ApologiaStudios .com, and so our radio show is up there, our TV shows, the after shows, our

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Apologia Academy, we have just a fantastic academy. We have men like Dr.

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James White, we have guys like Douglas Wilson, we have a new one with Nate Wilson, John Sampson on Reformed Theology, Apologetics, Dr.

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Trinity, we even have Dr. Mitch Stokes, who's a professor at New St. Andrews College, talking about mathematics and the biblical worldview, how you can't really have mathematics without Jesus, and so there's just a ton of content there, and it's at ApologiaStudios .com.

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You can also go to Apologia Studios on Facebook and on YouTube, and there's just hundreds of hours of content.

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All right, now tell us something about something that's very unusual for a pastor. You have your own late -night talk show called

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Next Week. Let us know about that. Sure. So one of the things we wanted to do in 2017, our plan with End Abortion Now was to equip churches, to provide them resources, to do it all for free, to connect people to their legislatures, to speak to them and demand immediate justice for these fatherless children, and we knew that we needed to produce content that changed the conversation and the culture about abortion, and what

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I mean by that is change it in terms of making it gospel -centered. We believe that the pro -life movement has fundamentally failed to be essentially

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Christian in the approach to confronting the culture of death that's all around us, and so we knew we needed to essentially produce content and put stuff across social media that would redirect the conversation about abortion back to the biblical foundations, and so that was one aspect, and we did a ton of stuff last year, videos that were seen by millions and millions and millions of people.

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People came to Christ through watching those. People turned away from killing their children because of watching those. People started going to the abortion mills after watching those, and so that was one aspect.

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But Next Week was, we wanted to have a weekly platform that would communicate to a wider audience where we could engage the culture, we could engage a host of cultural issues with the biblical worldview, but at the heart of that show is

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End Abortion Now. The heart of that show is confronting the issue of abortion and rallying local churches across the

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United States to get involved, to go to endabortionnow .com, to get free training, to get free resources, to get everything you need to do the same kind of justice and mercy mission that we're doing at Apology at Church, saving lives, preaching the gospel, helping mothers and fathers.

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So Next Week was just one avenue to do that, and praise

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God, we knew we needed to break out of the Reformed ghetto, and we wanted to have some... It's true, it's true.

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In order to end abortion, it has to be something that goes across a wide spectrum of Christianity, and so we wanted to break out of the

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Reformed ghetto. We wanted to be able to communicate to an entirely larger audience with the biblical worldview and the issue of abortion, and call people to get involved.

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And so we knew that if we did a show, and this is kind of discouraging, but it's true.

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We knew if we did a weekly show on abortion, we knew that barely anybody would watch it. You know, a weekly show every week on abortion, we knew that very few people would tune in to watch that, and the ability to have an impact in this area of abortion would be lessened.

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So we knew we needed to do a show that actually engaged the root of the problem and the culture in a wide variety of ways, but also constantly point people back to end abortion.

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Now, to show the babies that have been saved on a regular basis, and so we did, and God really tremendously blessed it.

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I mean, we had, I don't even know the numbers exactly, but over a million people that watched the show.

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We had so many views across a wide spectrum of communities, and from the time we started doing

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Next Week with Jeff Durbin, we added about 100 local churches to the fight who are now going to the abortion mills and preaching the gospel and saving lives.

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We hit kind of a stall point before we did Next Week, and as soon as we launched that show, about 100 churches were added.

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And you do add humor to this program, something that also is far too often a foreign thing to us

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Reform people. It is, it is. No, it's interesting. If you know

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Apologia Church and Apologia Radio and all the stuff that we do, if you listen to episodes from seven years ago, we cut up, we laugh, we tell jokes, we, you know, somebody commented once before about Apologia Radio, they said, it goes from silly to searing in seconds.

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And so that's just kind of, it's in our blood, it's who we are, we love to just, you know, have joy and have a good time, but also think hard and meaningful theological things.

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And so Apologia has always sort of had that about us, because that's just who we are. And so doing

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Next Week was, we wanted to have something that would engage the culture in a truly meaningful way, and it would do it in a way that was honest, that was good, and it would do it in a way that was cutting.

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We wanted to have a regular engagement with the culture of death that was cutting and hard.

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And so, yeah, there's a monologue in each show, an opening monologue, we tell, we have commentary where we cut

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Planned Parenthood, and we try to engage with what they say, what they're most recently doing.

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And so, yeah, and we're going to continue to get better at it, we just finished our first season of it, next season comes out in February, we have an incredible first guest already lined up for February, that's,

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I can't mention him, but it's going to be amazing. And how do folks watch Next Week?

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So Next Week, people can watch that, it airs live on Facebook Live every

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Tuesday evening on our Facebook page, Apologia Studios, we also put it up on YouTube later, it'll also be up on ApologiaStudios .com

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at some point, but it's live every Tuesday evening, and I think it's the second week of February where we start up again.

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Well, sometime in the future, you have to at least one time let me be your Ed McMahon on the show.

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I would love that. I would really love that. In fact, I am going to do something that I've never done live on air before, but I'm going to imitate for you, just for you,

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Jeff Durbin, and anybody who has the misfortune of listening, I'm going to imitate Johnny Carson right now.

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Okay. And here's my Johnny Carson imitation. Uh, it was so cold in Tempe, Arizona today that they found a family of illegal aliens huddled together in Jeff Durbin's beard.

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Sorry you had to endure that, folks. That's awesome, that's a pretty good one, man. But anyway,

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I'm going to play right now so people can get an actual taste of what you do at the abortion clinics, or I actually hate to use the term clinic, the abortion mills, like Planned Parenthood, what you and volunteers from Apologia Church and Apologia Studios do there.

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This is one of your briefer videos that obviously, since this is a radio program, people will only be hearing it by audio.

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And of course, folks listening, you can see many of these on YouTube.

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How many do you know of, how many you have posted on YouTube? Oh goodness, I have no idea.

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I mean, I think there's over 500 videos on our YouTube channel, I think, and I'm not sure how many of those are related to abortion.

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There's a ton, there's a ton, there's a lot, a lot of hours of content. Well, this is one of the excellent moments.

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It's about eight minutes long, I think, and I would even suggest to you who are listening to grab a pen and paper or just sit in front of your keyboard and make notes during this, but we will be right back with Jeff Durbin live momentarily, but right now this is a recording of Jeff Durbin at an abortion mill.

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What's that? What's wrong with them being able to choose? Who being able to choose? Whoever, man. People should be able to do what they want with their bodies.

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So can I rape a woman? No, you shouldn't do that. So I can't, I can't do what

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I want with my own body, can I? You do what you want with your body. You just can't do anything with anybody else's body. So let me try this.

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A person should be able to do what they want with their own body. Yeah. We shouldn't be able to, we shouldn't be allowed to just abuse other people's bodies.

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Absolutely. Okay. So in the case of what's happening inside there right now, the woman's body is not dying.

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It's another body biologically distinct inside of her that is being killed. I'm all for women doing what they want with their bodies.

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I, I'm in agreement with you actually, fundamentally that we shouldn't be able to harm other people's bodies, which is precisely what's happening in there.

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I'm glad you joined us. I'm all for your freedom of speech, of speech and everything, but I still just think it should be up to them.

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You shouldn't really, so all moral decisions should just be up to anybody. Yeah. So we should be able to molest children.

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We should be able to molest children. We should be able to molest children, rape women. No, no, no, no. You still have to have morals.

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Morals aren't, where's this come from? It's just life, man. It's just life, bro. It's life. It's just life, bro.

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Yeah. It's just morals. It's just life, bro. Yeah. Okay. So the child molester in the, in the cage right now that we've caged up who kidnapped and dismembered a small little girl after raping her, um, we put him in jail.

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Do you think he should be there? Oh, absolutely. Well, he lives by a different moral code than you. Right. He believes that what he did is a good moral, happy thing.

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Not necessarily. He got pleasure from it. Well, there's lots of people today that are pedophiles that enjoy it. Why, why don't you let them have their way for you?

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Well, bro, a lot of the times that's usually a psychological issue. Who says it's a psychological issue? Uh, scientists.

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You talk it. No, you're talking about brain gas, biochemical responses happening in the brain.

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Neurons and neurons are firing. Yeah. So, so you're talking about a condition that's happening in the brain of evolved protoplasm and the decision led to certain activities and you're condemning the activity that came from the brain gas.

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No, I'm saying that that right there can sometimes be affected like a disease.

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And sometimes it's brain gas, but it led to an activity. You're saying the activity is wrong. Oh, absolutely.

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On what basis is the activity wrong? You shouldn't do anything. Are you an atheist? Agnostic. You're an agnostic.

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Okay. So coming from an agnostic worldview, um, on what basis do you call anything wrong?

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Anything wrong? What do you mean by that? You're an agnostic. Right. So you don't know.

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True. Right. Yeah. Okay. So someone who doesn't know is making all kinds of knowledge claims.

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Yeah, but I still believe it morally, just deep down the human kind.

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It's the right thing to do. Okay. Do you believe that we evolved to get here? Oh, absolutely. You believe that our ancestors are, that we're African apes?

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No. Our ancestors were fish. Uh huh. So we're, we're evolved fish. Right. Right.

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And you're condemning certain human behaviors and activities in a universe that doesn't care about us when our ancestors were fish.

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You're calling one, you're calling one value that's risen up over evolutionary time wrong and one right.

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Those are arbitrary. Yeah. But see, sometimes just people don't have, um, science. Thank you.

15:52

Science, science is a methodology. No, science, science is a methodology.

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How can you, can you prove that it's not a methodology? Are you saying that science gives you, gives you morals?

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No. Thank you. That's what we were talking about. You're late catching up. Okay. Back to what we were talking about.

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Science is a methodology. Science is a methodology. It requires induction. Science is a methodology requires induction.

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We were talking about morality. So you're in a different conversation. I feel like you're kind of trying to change the subject. No, we were, if you want to talk about science,

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I'll ask you how you can account for induction, which is at the very bottom of science. You have to have uniformity and nature and induction, the principle of induction in order to actually do the scientific method.

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Right. So let me ask you, let me ask you as a, let me ask you as an agnostic, how do you justify and appeal to uniformity and the principle of induction?

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Given that you are an agnostic, you don't know that the next five seconds will be like the past. Yeah. So we need to know that for science to work.

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Not necessarily. You just kind of have to live, man. That's what I was saying earlier. I would encourage you to really, really examine that because if you really hold to the scientific method, you need induction and uniformity and nature, uniformity and nature.

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What you don't see in a science textbook is we need science, bro. Just cause you don't see it in a science textbook.

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That's true. But when you're trying to come at me after you're yelling at them. No, I'm not coming at you. Obviously I can't, I can't bring science as the first thing to you.

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I'm asking you as an agnostic to justify it, justify and appeal to induction. We need the future to be like the past.

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We need the universe to be uniform. How would, how would humankind progress? How would you get from the fish to the human now?

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And from what we're going to be? I mean, I mean this respectfully, I don't think you understand what I'm saying to you. So science depends upon the uniformity in nature.

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We have to do things based upon observation, right? So we examine a cell, we examine, we examine

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DNA, biology, we examine something and we recognize that there are repeated patterns, that the future will be like the past.

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Past experiences showed us one thing through observation, therefore we now move from those past experiences to project into the future what will be in the future.

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That's the basis of science. So I'm asking you as an agnostic who believes that your ancestors were fish in a purposeless, unguided universe, how do you justify and satisfy the preconditions necessary for science and the uniformity in nature when you believe that we live in a godless universe that's not governed?

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I didn't say that. I didn't say that. Godless is atheist. Agnostic, it means that I just don't believe, I don't know.

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So you live by faith? Right, yeah. It just kind of go with the flow. You live, you live by blind faith?

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Yeah. Yeah, right. That's not the Christian position. We wouldn't want to live like that. Blind faith.

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I'm not I'm saying you have a worldview, I have a worldview, I'm assuring you. No, you're entitled. Yeah, you live by blind faith, so therefore you really have no argument with, say, back to the moral position, you really have no position to argue with, say, the rapist, the kidnapper, the enslaver, the murderer.

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I mean, just as you're entitled to your position, though, I'm entitled to mine. No, listen, you can believe, of course, what you want, but what

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I'm saying is that I'm talking to you as a Christian with love, saying that with your position of blind faith that you've granted, with no basis for science or morality, you can't really make an appeal to morality at all because you live by faith.

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You don't know, you're an agnostic, you don't know, right? So when you walk past here, though, you didn't act like you didn't know. When you walk past here, when you walk past here, you didn't act like you didn't know.

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You actually said they should be able to do what they want with their bodies. So how do you make sense of that when you said that you don't have any way to justify morality or science, you don't know, you live by faith?

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Do you see? No, I see it. I feel like this conversation is kind of going in circles. I understand what you're saying, and I respect what you're saying, but I think we're just going to keep going.

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Well, I want you to know, my name is Jeff. Jonathan. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you, man. I just want you to know why we're here, just so you don't walk away not knowing.

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We love you, we care for these women. Over 70 babies have been saved through this work. That's awesome. Carmelo, Olivia Grace, Kara, I can show you pictures.

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That's why we're here, because we care. We love these people. We want you to know something, just the last thing I'll say to you, and I really appreciate you stopping.

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We're here because we're forgiven, because we're saved. God loves us. He died for our sins and rose from the dead, and the message is that all who turn from their sin to come to him will be forgiven, and that's what we want for you.

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That's the message. I appreciate that. I appreciate you, James. God bless you, man. You too. Thank you. Congratulations.

20:28

That was pretty powerful stuff, Jeff. Was that at a Planned Parenthood?

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Yeah, that was actually the Planned Parenthood in Tempe, not far from our studio. They're no longer there.

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They actually, I think because of all the work that we were doing there, they had so much pressure from the community, they actually moved now a couple miles south to a new location, but yeah, that was at the old

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Tempe Planned Parenthood location. And I think that your own information is probably outdated now.

20:58

You said we've saved over 70 babies. If I'm not mistaken, our last conversation far exceeded that.

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Yeah, I think we're around 100. It's difficult at this point to keep track, and when we say that, that's just confirmed.

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There are times when we can't actually confirm, so we don't really add those numbers, but we know that it's well over 100, but we say right now about 100 children saved from death.

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And you're talking about women that were going to enter into the doors of that abortuary and have her baby murdered, who changed her mind right in front of you.

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Yes, yeah, so this is typically what has happened is it's women who are showing up on a surgical abortion day, and they're going in for their abortion, and they'll turn around after hearing our calling out to them, our preaching.

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They'll turn away, and there's other times where maybe they're going there for consultation.

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They've set the appointment for the abortion, and they come out and talk to us, and we end up communicating the love of Christ to them and the truth, and they end up turning away.

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Sometimes we've even had women that walk out of Planned Parenthood with a brown paper bag, and when we see that, we know that they've been given the abortion pill.

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There's been times where the woman comes out with the bag of pills, and after talking to us, she dumps the pill.

22:21

Wow. Yeah, so there's a number of different ways that it takes place, but just through the effort of Apology of Church locally, it's approximately 100 children saved from death, and then if you then look at what

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God has done through End Abortion Now in 2017, we have over 250 churches that have now linked up.

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They've gotten the free training and the free resources, and they're going out now, and it's, I think, near impossible to calculate at this point how many children have been saved from death, because some of those churches, like one of them is on their 35th save.

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One had over 130 saves. I had a couple come in here yesterday to the studio from Delaware.

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They started an abortion ministry because of End Abortion Now and Apology of Church, and they're in Delaware.

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They've saved five children themselves, but this was such a blessing to hear.

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When they started going out, there were other churches that started coming out as well, and then they discovered that those churches were now coming out as a result of Apology of Church and our ministry as well.

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So yeah, it's just incredible. It really is incredible, and it's just impossible to calculate how much damage this has done to the kingdom of darkness.

23:32

Now, you have mentioned End Abortion Now several times, and if you could give us more details on exactly what

23:39

End Abortion Now does. Sure. So our local abortion mill ministry for Apology of Church started,

23:46

I guess, going on four years ago now. We weren't doing this kind of work before. Of course, we were pro -life, but we weren't really doing anything to go out and to save lives, and so through a course of events,

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I was really challenged. We were challenged as a church listening to the testimonies of Christians who were doing this kind of work.

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Marcus' film, Babies Are Murdered Here, which is available on YouTube for free, was a big catalyst for us at Apology of Church to really kick us over the line.

24:12

So we started a ministry called the Red Door Ministry, and historically, churches had red doors, and that was the place for safety and sanctuary.

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People can come in to escape death of their enemies, and they would go to the place with the red door, and so we called that the

24:30

Red Door Ministry, and so we started doing active evangelism. We were turning the camera on, and we were just filming our ministry as it was happening, and we would talk about it on Apology Radio when we had a save, and just people started getting involved as a result of just hearing our stories.

24:46

So at the end of 2016, I had had a vision and goal for what we wanted to do to really grow the movement of local churches that were to get involved in this effort.

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We knew that it couldn't just be Apology of Church or the handful of other sidewalk ministries that were doing it. It needed to be a massive movement, and we knew that churches needed to get involved and needed to be a part of the local churches' efforts, and we wanted to take away every excuse for anybody that anybody had to not do this kind of ministry.

25:18

So I had sort of a vision for what we wanted to do, but we didn't have the money for it. It was going to cost, you know, a lot of money to send kits to churches and materials to hand out and to give training to get a website.

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There was just so much involved that we're a small church. People don't realize that about Apology of Church. If everyone is there all at once, it may be 200 people, so it's not a very large church.

25:40

So we don't have the resources for it, so we kind of got everything set up. Our website guy,

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Tim, had built the website, and we just sort of like left it on hold because we didn't have what it took.

25:54

So by God's grace, there was a brother in Christ that has actually helped fund crisis pregnancy centers in his hometown.

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He listened to Apology Air Radio through the recommendation of a friend, and he contacted me personally out of the blue, and he said, so, you know, tell me what your vision is for the area of abortion, what you want to do.

26:14

So I already know. He was like, great, what is it? And I explained everything, the strategy that we had set up, and I said, but we just don't have the money.

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And so he said, well, if you could have what you needed for it, what would it cost? I said, I already know that too. We need $250 ,000 to do it for a year.

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And essentially, he committed to give us $125 ,000 for matching donations.

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And so we put it before the people of God, and I think we were funded within about a month for 2017.

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And what that allowed us to do in 2017 is really start this strategy that we had, and the strategy was to, number one, get the local churches involved in justice and mercy missions at their local abortion mills, and to speak prophetically to their culture around them, centered on the gospel around abortion, and to their local legislatures demanding an immediate end to abortion.

27:09

We wanted to equip those churches and train those churches, give free resources. We even held a conference in 2017 that was completely for free, and we flew out a number of pastors and leaders from across the country, from Alaska to Maine and Florida and California.

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We had about 100 churches represented at this conference, and that was just early on in 2017.

27:32

And so we provided all that equipping and kind of getting everyone set and ready to go. We had a landing zone for churches to come to get training.

27:41

So if somebody said, we don't know what we're doing, we'd say, no problem, we have you taken care of. Just go to the website and get all the training you need.

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And if somebody said, well, I don't have the materials necessary to hand out to women, we'd say, we got you with that.

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We're going to pay for your entire kit, your signs, your tracks, your pamphlets, and we'll send them to you at no cost to you.

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So we wanted to remove every obstacle. And the other part of the mission was to flood the internet with media and content that was gospel -centered around the issue of abortion.

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We knew that the pro -life narrative is fundamentally flawed in so many ways, in terms of how it pretends neutrality, in terms of how it doesn't speak philosophically consistently on this issue.

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It turns the women who actually have abortions into victims and not perpetrators.

28:31

And just as a number of things, they're not fighting for the criminalization of abortion in a consistent way.

28:39

And we know that because at the very top of the most reputable, respected pro -life ministries in the world, we've had conversations with the leadership where they've said in no uncertain terms that they're not seeking to have abortion essentially criminalized and called murder, which is why they're failing.

29:01

Because legislatures have to legislate on moral issues. And if you don't actually have abortion as a moral issue, if it's just something that's distasteful to you, you just don't like it, legislatures will not legislate against it.

29:14

And when the pro -life movement abandons consistency and the biblical worldview to fight against abortion, they fail every single time.

29:23

And so we knew that the legislative aspect needed to be a big part of what we were doing.

29:29

And so we needed to do that. We needed to change people's minds with media content. And so we needed to flood the internet.

29:34

We also needed to focus on the legislative battle itself by having Christians communicate directly to their legislatures and offering them support if they would take courageous and consistent and bold moves to essentially establish justice for these children.

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So one of the things we did on the website is we have a tab there where people can click on it. It's a simple process.

29:58

All they do is put their name and their information in and just hit the button and it sends a pre -made letter to your local legislature offering them support and demanding immediate justice for the pre -born.

30:11

So at this point there have been thousands upon thousands of Christians that have used that service, put directly into contact with their legislature.

30:19

And so End Abortion Now was essentially a movement from Apology at Church.

30:26

This is not a separate ministry from Apology at Church. It's just Apology at Church's ministry to equip local churches across the country to be involved in saving lives at the mill, preaching the gospel, offering help, and communicating to the local legislature in their area to demand an immediate end to abortion.

30:44

And so if I could just say this one last thing on this point, there's a bit of a different strategy with End Abortion Now in terms of we are grateful for God striking straight blows with crooked sticks.

30:59

And what I mean by that is legislation that has been incremental and focusing on, you know, sort of chipping away at the abortion industry, you know, and cleaner abortion facilities, trying to shut them down in that way, or lowering the level of weeks where abortion is allowed.

31:20

We're grateful that God has used that to save lives. However, we also recognize that we need to have a consistent philosophical and Christian position against abortion and a consistent legislative position against abortion.

31:35

We ought to be fighting against it in terms of what the end to abortion.

31:42

And so what we wanted to do was redirect people to how our system of government is in the

31:49

United States. And what I mean by that is many of these pro -life organizations, and I've been told from the very top,

31:59

I've been, I've talked to the people who are in leadership of all these organizations, I've been told by them that they are not seeking an immediate criminalization at a local level against abortion.

32:11

They are focusing on, at some point, hopefully overturning Roe v. Wade. And the problem with that kind of thinking is that it goes against,

32:20

I think, consistency in terms of what abortion actually is and how we should be fighting against it.

32:26

But it also violates our own system of government. And what I mean by that is courts in our nation cannot make laws.

32:35

It says in our constitutional documents that the Congress creates law, not the courts.

32:41

And so Roe v. Wade was a court opinion that no state was obligated to obey, to listen to, and a good example is in Arizona right now.

32:54

Abortion is illegal in Arizona right now. There is a current statute on the books, it has never been altered, it has never been changed, it is still current legal code, hasn't been struck down, nothing's happened to it, abortion is illegal in Arizona right now, and anybody who commits it is guilty of a crime.

33:14

However, that law isn't upheld or protected or utilized because we bought into the fiction that Roe v.

33:23

Wade created a law that subverts the laws of the states. It didn't. Not only was

33:29

Roe v. Wade based upon faulty premises, they said that what was in the womb was potential human life, but Roe v.

33:36

Wade was a court opinion. So you have states like Texas, Arizona, Idaho, right now, where abortion is illegal.

33:45

As a matter of fact, Idaho, abortion is called murder. On the books, currently never changed.

33:52

So our approach is fundamentally different from how the pro -life community has been trying to fight against this, where they're saying we want to overturn

33:59

Roe v. Wade. What we're saying is that's not even how our system of government works. You don't have to do that.

34:04

The states can exercise their state sovereignty and uphold their own laws and say to the higher courts, that is not legislation, that's a court opinion, and we reject it.

34:15

And we can uphold justice for these children at the state level and we can do it immediately. There have been a number of attempts at doing that over the last two years.

34:25

One was in Oklahoma, one was in Texas, one was in Idaho, and each and every time, and this is the disheartening aspect of all of this fight, each and every time the greatest opposition that we've experienced in trying to put forth legislation that would just uphold the laws that are on the books and to criminalize abortion, the greatest opposition has been from the pro -life movement.

34:52

As a matter of fact, in Oklahoma, Tony Lounger, who's the vice president of National Right to Life, they had, there's a senator

35:00

I think named Joseph Silk, if I remember his name correctly, he put legislation in that would have immediately criminalized abortion in the state of Oklahoma.

35:08

The pro -life, that legislature is predominantly pro -life, and from what we learned from friends that were there, the pro -life legislators that were there, they had an opportunity to vote on this thing and to get this thing off the ground, and it was a predominantly pro -life legislature, so you would think, of course it's going to work, right?

35:28

Well, they actually asked their expert at the National Right to Life, Tony Lounger, the vice president, what should we do,

35:37

Tony? How do you want us to vote on this? And he told them, do not vote on this. Wow. He said, it'll undo all of the pro -life legislation that we put into effect all these years.

35:49

Wow. And my answer to that is, well, of course it would, because it would criminalize abortion completely.

35:55

And this gets to another point, Chris, and I know I'm talking a lot here, but this is critical in this whole fight. If Roe versus Wade was overturned tonight, so if tonight there was a miraculous event where they said, by decree, we overturn

36:11

Roe versus Wade, abortion would now be legal in almost every state tomorrow because of the pro -life legislation that has been implemented over the years by the pro -life community.

36:25

So what I mean by that is they've fought for legislation that says abortion shall be illegal except in the case of, and then they give restrictions for abortion.

36:36

So that gives essentially, that gives a legal right to abortion through pro -life legislation.

36:44

So even if Roe v. Wade was overturned, abortion is still legal in the states because of pro -life legislation.

36:51

And so the only way you're actually ever going to end abortion in our nation is, number one, there has to be a heart change in our nation, and the only way that takes place is through the gospel.

37:01

It cannot happen through pragmatism. It cannot happen through mere winning arguments about biology.

37:07

It has to take place because the heart of our nation needs to change, and that only takes place because of the gospel.

37:14

But beyond that, the only way abortion is going to be criminalized in our nation at this point is if states exercise their sovereign right to uphold their own laws and resist the corrupt decree of a court in the 70s that didn't even get the premises right.

37:32

It was just an opinion, and our system of government says that Congress makes laws, not the Supreme Court. And we have to go to our first break right now.

37:39

If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Jeff Durbin, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

37:46

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

37:56

USA. And of course, you may remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

38:02

And this is one of those times where I can certainly imagine there may be a lot of you who want to remain anonymous when you ask questions about this subject because perhaps you yourself have had abortions or are contemplating one.

38:16

Well, you may feel free to remain anonymous, of course, and we will grant that request.

38:22

But other than that, if it's just a general question about this subject, please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

38:28

That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Don't go away, God willing, we'll be right back with more of Jeff Durbin and a blueprint for abortion mill evangelism.

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And I hope to see many of you there for the first time as well at my exhibitors booth at the G3 Conference.

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We are back now with our guest today, Pastor Jeff Durbin of Apologia Church in Tempe, Arizona, also the founder of Apologia TV and Apologia Radio, and host of the

44:21

Next Week program. We are discussing a blueprint for abortion mill evangelism.

44:28

And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

44:34

And before we go back to our discussion, we just have a not a question, but a commendation or note of praise from a listener in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York.

44:48

Hey, Chris, just wanted to send a quick thanks to Jeff and his team for all their work on behalf of the kingdom of God.

44:54

It has been a great encouragement and help to our outreach team here at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Medford, New York, here on Long Island, both on the streets and at abortion clinics.

45:06

Also to you, Chris, for all your hard work on Iron Sharpens Iron. Thank you very much, Jerry, in Suffolk County.

45:13

Before we go into some of the actual strategy, if you will, when you are trying to rescue children from being murdered at abortion clinics, when you're trying to reach primarily the women who are going in there to have their babies murdered, before we get into that, just a little bit of political banter.

45:34

I know that one of your political heroes, if I'm sorry if I'm stretching that term too high, but I know that Ron Paul has been someone you look up to in the world of politics.

45:46

I know that Ron Paul and his son Rand have taken a state's vote issue on this rather than having this addressed by a federal law prohibiting abortion.

46:02

Some pro -life people have been upset by that. They've said, why are you relegating this to states' rights when this should be just a federal crime period because it's murder?

46:16

How do you respond to that and what is your opinion in regard to the states' rights level of tackling this abortion issue?

46:27

Yes, so I think that we are a far, far field of where we were when we established this country as a constitutional republic, a

46:35

Christian constitutional republic actually early on, and we're broken in so many ways.

46:44

The question highlights the fundamental flaw with the pro -life community is they bought into that fiction that the federal government has the power and the say -so here.

46:57

That was never the intention of our founding fathers that we would have that sort of a situation. It is actually a states' rights issue and the states have the obligation,

47:08

I should say that, they have the obligation to protect their citizens and citizens in the womb are still citizens.

47:14

They have an obligation to uphold justice and to protect their citizens at the state level. And what's interesting here, and this is,

47:20

I think, an amazing moment for us to be able to communicate just the consistency of this position.

47:29

Right now we live in a time where there are states, Oregon, Washington, California, Arizona, that have actually resisted the federal government and opinion of the federal government on, say, something like marijuana legislation.

47:44

Now, this has nothing to do with your opinion on marijuana. Just think about it in terms of the principle.

47:50

The states have said, we know that it's against federal law to have marijuana, but the states have rejected the opinion of the federal government to essentially protect, in their mind, the rights of their citizens.

48:03

Now, again, whether you agree with that or not in terms of marijuana and whether it's useful or helpful medically, that's not the issue here.

48:10

But the point is, is the principle these states are standing on, like, for example, Colorado, is that they have a right as a state over their citizens to uphold justice for their citizens and the rights of their citizens.

48:25

And so they've resisted. And this is what's amazing to me, Chris, is they've resisted the federal government and taken a bold, in -your -face stance to the federal government and said, we're not going to listen to you.

48:37

We don't care that it's against federal law. We're going to establish this for our citizens. They're allowed to use this substance for medical reasons or whatever, and we resist your opinion.

48:46

And they've taken a bold and courageous stance in doing so, and yet we won't do that with abortion.

48:53

And what's interesting about that is that it's compelling. These are states, say, for example,

49:00

Idaho, Texas, Arizona, that right now it is illegal to have an abortion in those states.

49:05

It is against the law, and it has not been changed and altered. They define a human life from conception, and they talk about human life in terms of conception and onward to natural death.

49:20

And they talk about abortion as actually a murder charge and homicide, and it's never been changed, and they're still on the books.

49:30

And the states just don't have the courage right now to uphold their own state's just statutes in opposition to the federal government's really corrupt opinion and decree on this.

49:42

But it has to be a state's rights issue. And again, I just want to highlight this again for anybody that's just now joining in on the discussion. Right now, if you overturn

49:50

Roe v. Wade, it's still legal tomorrow. Abortion is still legal tomorrow because of the pro -life legislation that's been added over the years that essentially protects abortion at the state level.

50:01

So it is a failed policy to focus on overturning the opinion of the Supreme Court, A.

50:07

That's not how our system of government works. Congress makes laws, not the Supreme Court. And B, because the pro -life legislation has protected abortion at the state level, if you overturn

50:18

Roe v. Wade, it doesn't matter. It's still legal tomorrow. So the only way it can be ended, again, is a heart change in our nation and through consistent legislative battle where we actually call abortion what it is.

50:31

I'll point everyone to something. After I discovered what was happening in Oklahoma with this consistent legislation with Senator Joseph Silk and Tony Lallinger, the

50:42

Vice President of National Right to Life, who was resisting that bill and he communicated to the pro -life legislatures, legislators not to support it,

50:51

I sat down and I had an interview with Tony Lallinger. And that interview is up on YouTube.

50:56

Just type in Jeff Durbin, Tony Lallinger, and you'll see the full 30 -minute interview

51:02

I did with him. There's so much that I wanted to say to him, but I wanted to give the man the opportunity to express his views on this issue.

51:13

And so what you'll see in that interview is one of the leaders in the pro -life movement worldwide saying that they are not fighting to have abortion considered murder.

51:25

He said explicitly that he believed that we needed to fight against abortion and take a backdoor approach.

51:34

That was what he said, a backdoor approach. And what he meant by that is not use the Christian worldview, not use

51:40

Christian terminology, don't call people to repentance and faith. He said, backdoor approach, we need to play a neutral position in this.

51:49

And that's just fundamentally flawed, and I think every Christian can recognize that there is no ability to have someone's heart changed or the heart of your nation changed if you don't make it about the gospel, if you don't call out sin as sin and call people to repentance.

52:05

And the pro -life movement fundamentally will not do that. They call women who have abortions victims, and they do not consider them perpetrators of crimes.

52:16

They will not work towards legislation that calls abortion murder. There are a lot of reasons for that.

52:22

I think there are a lot of theological reasons. The pro -life movement, in many respects, is being led by the

52:28

Roman Catholic community, and there are a lot of theological reasons as to why they don't want abortion called murder, because we get to issues of mortal sin and things like that, and that would do a lot of damage to their membership if many of the women were guilty of mortal sin in that way.

52:44

So they will not fight against it consistently. They won't fight against it philosophically consistently, biblically consistently, nor legislatively consistently.

52:53

And I hate to put myself, Chris, in opposition to people who have worked so hard to save lives, and I don't want to be seen as somebody who's not grateful for all the work people have done to save even one life.

53:04

But in terms of where we're at now, it's okay for us, and I think it's important for us, to ask the question as Christians, is this biblical?

53:14

Is it consistent? And does it even work? And I think that the way the pro -life movement has approached it, the answer is no, no, and no.

53:21

Wow, you've enlightened me to something about the Roman Catholic view of this that I was totally unaware of before, as far as anything being negative about their approach to the pro -life movement, because they are known to be champions of it, even before Protestants were involved, publicly anyway.

53:40

But I want to pick this up where we left off, and we have to go to our break right now. This is a longer break than normal, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

53:48

FM in Lake City, Florida, requires a 12 -minute break between our two hours, so I hope that you are all patient with us, and please take this time to write in your questions.

53:58

I have several of you already waiting for your questions to be asked and answered, so please be patient. But if you'd like to join them, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Don't go away, we'll be right back with Jeff Durbin and a blueprint for abortion mill evangelism.

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That's the 17th through the 20th. The 17th actually begins with a

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01:09:27

Now we are back to our discussion with Jeff Durbin on a blueprint for abortion evangelism and you can also send us questions to that last email address

01:09:39

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01:09:51

So one last thing I wanted to say about the Ron and Rand Paul issue about being pro -life but believing that this should be in the hands of states rights rather than a federal issue.

01:10:06

I was surprised to learn when I because I actually had a knee -jerk reaction to that when

01:10:11

I first heard it and I was somewhat upset by their approach but then I began doing more research of my own and I have since become more of a

01:10:20

Christian libertarian than I used to be and I was surprised to learn that murder unless it is under very rare circumstances only a handful of circumstances murder is a state crime it's not a federal crime and I did not know that before.

01:10:39

Yeah right and I think you know

01:10:44

I think the truth is as many of us haven't thought about this like in depth we generally know as Christians that we're pro -life well of course we know that God Psalm 139 knits us together in our mother's womb we know that we're fearfully and wonderfully made of course the scriptures teach us you know fundamentally in ten commandments you shall not murder we have examples in scripture and the law of God and exodus where you have a pre -born child in the womb and there's a case law example given there if men are fighting and they cause a miscarriage and that baby dies you know that the bible does talk about this and even from the earliest stages of the church and I'm talking like second century

01:11:29

Christians were developing creeds and doctrinal traditions to respond to cultural things happening around them and from the very inception of the church uh first century into the second century

01:11:42

Christians had to respond to abortifacient uh to abortions that were happening in their society and one of the earliest

01:11:49

Christian uh creeds and traditions confessions uh was specifically had specifically addressed abortion so so yes like historically and of course biblically uh we can see that that the doctrine uh surrounding protecting the life of the of the pre -born all of that is is obvious but but I don't think that many of us have thought beyond the general idea of we need to protect the pre -born children of course we're pro -life as Christians so we haven't thought these like long and hard and deep thoughts about the legislative aspect and uh

01:12:25

I think many of us have just taken for granted and I might say many of us I mean me um I was of course pro -life since I've been a believer and um and I preached sermons against abortion before I was ever on the streets fighting against it and trying to save lives or doing anything like we're doing with an abortion now um and so yes

01:12:43

I was there but but thinking that the hard thoughts about consistency just taking for granted the pro -life movement's general party line about abortion in terms of just needing to overturn

01:12:57

Roe versus Wade you know it's a federal issue um not thinking those thoughts has has has been damaging to us and our witness and to our effectiveness in this area um you know it's interesting um last year uh

01:13:13

Metro UK and uh the New York Post published articles about yours truly um

01:13:20

I think one of them said a hipster pastor wants to um wants to give the death penalty to women who have abortions or something like that of course it's a punchy um line to get people to click uh so it's clickbait but um uh definitely not so a

01:13:36

I'm not a hipster and b I don't want to kill anybody um but uh thinking these hard thoughts about abortion in terms of what is it well biblically speaking and legally speaking it's murder taking the life of another human being with uh malice of forethought is murder in every case um and so when we think about what is actually taking place it's the taking of another human's life in an unjust manner with malice of forethought that is murder biblically speaking it is murder um and then we think about the legislative aspect and I mentioned this earlier uh on Chris um and this is this is vitally important to get if we go to the legislature in our area and we say abortion makes us uncomfortable we think it's icky we don't like it we really just want it to stop um and the legislature says okay but why well just because just because it goes against your tradition and your family values because we can't impose legislation on personal likes and dislikes like you know we can't have legislation that says chocolate ice cream is better than vanilla ice cream because you happen to like that more that's not how legislation works it has to be a moral issue it has to be an issue of justice all legislation is ultimately moral uh and in some part and so if we do what the pro -life movement has generally been involved in doing and we say things like we just want abortion to stop the legislature has a right to ask why what is it now what's interesting is you've got people like Milo Yiannopoulos he is a um he is a in many ways vile outspoken uh weirdly homosexual conservative advocate um and he

01:15:26

Milo Yiannopoulos who uh is hard to listen to sometimes because how vile he is but also other times like wow that's compelling you're more courageous than many

01:15:34

Christians are um he calls it murder um when you look at uh the last uh election cycle you had the governor of New Jersey uh

01:15:44

Chris Christie on the stage at the uh presidential debates you had you had him saying publicly abortion is murder so it's interesting you've got like this homosexual and this homosexual this governor of New Jersey saying publicly this is murder you've got

01:16:01

Ben Shapiro conservative uh advocate uh Ben Shapiro brilliant mind I love I love

01:16:06

Ben Shapiro yeah yeah Ben Shapiro um he's um he's tremendous and he calls it murder but what's compelling is these people aren't professing

01:16:18

Christians and they're saying it's murder but the pro -life movement resists using the language of murder they won't talk about it in terms of murder so the question has to be asked as a legislator if this isn't murder if it's not ultimately a moral issue to that degree then what have

01:16:36

I to legislate against I can't do it off your personal likes and dislikes so the pro -life movement says that legislatively we just want this to end um legislatures don't legislate against it because it's just your personal preference now if it's murder and it is if it's malice of forethought if it's the unjustified taking of another human life um then they can legislate against it and so that's that's an important question to ask and yes and this is something that that I think

01:17:04

Christians when they've seen me say it or heard me say it um have had to have to sort of like raise an eyebrow go that's

01:17:11

I haven't thought about that before but yes in the future if we do this consistently as Christians and legislatively if we call abortion murder if human life begins at conception and it does biblically speaking and biologically speaking that's an indisputable fact it just cannot be refuted if it's a human life from conception what do we call the taking of another human life in an unjustified way with malice of forethought we call that murder and so yes we do want consistent legislation that criminalizes abortion and penalizes penalizes anybody that would actually engage in the act that's the only way to have effective legislation against abortion so yes the discussion needs to take place at the state level well what kind of penalties would be given in Arizona right now the law says abortion is illegal and it's a five -year prison sentence if you have an abortion in Arizona so each state of course will probably have to work on legislatively what's the penalty for malice of forethought taken of the life of a pre -born child many states in the

01:18:16

United States have the death penalty capital punishment for murder I do personally believe that God's word is clear from beginning to end that it's life for life if you take the life of a human being in an unjustified way it is capital punishment but the states will have to determine that as we go along but I think legislatively we have to start calling it murder and we have to start asking our legislature to actually uphold justice by having legislation that says that this is murder it's homicide amen uh and one thing that boils my blood more than anything it even boils my blood

01:18:53

I think more than the open advocate of murdering children who is unashamed about it

01:19:01

I really get sickened when I hear these political candidates like Tim Kaine and others who will say oh

01:19:09

I am personally opposed to abortion I'm a Roman Catholic or I'm this or I'm that but I still think it's a woman's right to choose now that is the most ridiculous position out of all of them because you're saying

01:19:21

I believe it's murder but hey don't let me stop you from doing it right right yeah and that's

01:19:28

I think one of the the challenging things uh that we had to face as we've we've engaged in this ministry is is listening to the inconsistencies of the pro -life legislators and and I don't want to create any enemies by saying this but I believe there are many people unfortunately that are pro -life um uh in their political stance when they get elected they run on a pro -life platform but they don't really do anything to actually end abortion um through their their work as a political um candidate or or um or governor or anything like that um when you when you think about some of the things that they say it's disheartening uh

01:20:08

I think you can go to YouTube or our Apology of Studios page on Facebook and there is a live stream that we did we held a um a political town hall in Moscow Idaho with um

01:20:22

I think three was it three or is it two two two of the uh gubernatorial candidates in uh uh in Idaho and it was it was powerful because both these men were professing uh pro -life in their stance and um what was interesting is when the men who were hosting this discussion this town hall pressed them on the issue um one of them would not call it murder and he was pro -life but he essentially was acting like I just said it's just uncomfortable we really want it to end but he wasn't really willing to do anything running on a pro -life platform to actually end abortion he was just saying as a political preference

01:21:00

I'm pro -life and if you ask what does mean what are you going to do to actually end abortion now uh his answer was ultimately nothing now thankfully the other candidate we were able to push him to consistency he did call it murder and I asked him if he would be willing to support a a local magistrate who uh banned abortion in that city or municipality and he said he would as a governor which

01:21:23

I thought was amazing that's the boldness that we need um and so you know you hear often pro -life um candidates and governors and legislators uh who will constantly say they're pro -life but they don't do anything to actually end abortion and so one of the and this gets to you talk about a blueprint um we know that what we have to do is have a large grassroots movement of Christians at the local church level that work together with their respective communities to speak to their local legislatures offering them support to take bold moves and demanding that they actually stay consistent with their pro -life commitments and they uphold justice for these fatherless children that they actually do something to end abortion at the state level so we know that yes it's helpful to go to the abortion mills and save lives that needs to take place we know that it is helpful to have media and content that just floods the internet to try to change the heart and mind of the culture through the gospel that's important but the other aspect of this is we need to have

01:22:29

Christians re -examine the foundations of our fight should we play neutrality should we as Tony Lallinger says uh the vice president of national right to life should we take a backdoor approach and not use

01:22:43

Christian terminology should we avoid talking about the Christian message when talking about abortion which is what his position is um we we have to think these hard thoughts about how do we actually work to end abortion because it's not going to take place um through the the way that we've been doing it i remember that i was uh chris i was talking to somebody who's been a big supporter of ours for a long time uh this is somebody who is very very very well known um in uh the state of Arizona and she is the head of a

01:23:16

Christian lobbyist group um she's hated by the left in Arizona um uh there was a time where she was uh actually holed up in a in a building uh hiding because they were basically coming for her life um and um uh i've spent a lot of time with her a good relationship but i talked to her at one point on the phone about helping us with the message of end abortion now and she told me that she could not and i said well why not you're you know you're the largest

01:23:46

Christian lobbyist group in Arizona you're working on legislation that is consistent with a Christian worldview why would you not and she said

01:23:53

Jeff i can't support what you're doing and saying because you're calling abortion murder.

01:23:59

Wow. She said i have too many uh Christian sisters who have had abortions in their past and i simply cannot say they're guilty of murder.

01:24:09

Now this is the head of the largest Christian lobbyist lobby group in Arizona who works to get legislation implemented she's at the state capitol virtually every day and she essentially is opposition for us um in this respect uh they will not fight against it as though it's murder and to immediately criminalize it so we have a long road ahead of us we have a battle as a blueprint is is actually educating

01:24:38

Christians on what is consistent and what is ultimately uh the right strategy for the legal battle uh i have to say this and i again i hate i hate to make myself an enemy of or to create uh hostility between me and the pro -life movement but i have to be faithful as a

01:24:55

Christian as a pastor um our greatest opposition in many respects is the pro -life movement.

01:25:02

We're going to go to our final break it's going to be much briefer those previous breaks and if you'd like to join us on the air while you still have time our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:25:11

and i'm going to forward you right now Jeff uh an email from our listener

01:25:17

Joey in Clifton New Jersey so that you could look at that during the break and respond to it when we return from the break.

01:25:25

If anybody else would like to join us get online as quickly as you can before we run out of time chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:25:31

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01:30:26

This is the final half hour of our interview today with Jeff Durbin, pastor of Apologia Church in Tempe Arizona and founder of Apologia TV and Apologia Radio and host of the next week program and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question do it before we run out of time our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

01:30:46

and before the break Pastor Jeff I forwarded you an email from Joey in Clifton New Jersey and he says hi

01:30:56

Jeff regarding pro -life legislation being problematic would an example be the kind of legislation that limits the term of the abortion so for example in trying to eliminate late term abortions we effectively legislate earlier term abortions if so I understand your point but given our environment it is difficult to argue that this has not saved lives could this be analogous to saving lives on the battlefield even though not optimal for the war and he has one more question that I will address after you finish responding to that sure yeah

01:31:37

I think it's an excellent question so I really appreciate the question Joey and yes you have it right when you have pro -life legislation that says no abortions are allowed past the 20 week mark that's what that's the kind of local pro -life legislation that I'm referring to that would keep abortion legal at the state level if Roe v

01:31:59

Wade were overturned because it's legislation that's been implemented at the state level that essentially says that abortion is legal as long as it's not past 20 weeks there's another thing that could be said about that what's interesting is when we have pro -life legislation that does that say a ban on abortions past 20 weeks well the vast majority of abortions take place at lower levels than that and so that doesn't really put a dent in the amount of abortions that are taking place and so it's problematic in that sense it's not actually covering the vast majority of abortions that take place but yeah that's what

01:32:36

I'm referring to now this is really important and it's interesting no matter how many times you say it it does get missed and it may just be my communicating it but I used the old line from Cornelius Van Til that you know

01:32:50

God strikes straight blows with crooked sticks I don't believe we should continue using crooked sticks though just because God can do that yes these incremental legislative fights have been used to save lives and I've said this so many times

01:33:06

I am so grateful that God has done that that he saved lives through inconsistent incremental legislation however

01:33:15

I don't believe that we can ultimately work to end abortion through this inconsistent position as we fight against abortion if it is the taking of a human life with malice aforethought if it's murder then that has to be a consistent position across the board and so yes there have live there have been lives that have been saved and we're grateful for that but we we don't want another 60 million babies murdered over the next 20 years or 30 years we'd like to see abortion ended abolished criminalized immediately and the only way to do that is to be consistent and it's to be consistent

01:33:55

Christian in a Christian way in a philosophical way and in a legislative way and so um yes lives have been saved um however we have to ask the question what's ultimately going to end abortion and it's it's not going to be ended through inconsistent incremental legislation and then further buttressing that point is that it's this incremental legislation that will keep abortion legal when and if Roe v

01:34:20

Wade is overturned and Joe's second question is what would a state's right solution be with the existence of Roe versus Wade can you give an example absolutely so take for an example as an example um uh see

01:34:37

Idaho we're talking about Idaho Idaho right now abortion is called murder it's on the books it's against the law uh they allow abortions because of Roe v

01:34:45

Wade uh what a state could do that already has uh pre -made legislation that's current on the books against abortion calling it murder defining human life um from the moment of conception is the state would only need to point to that law and uphold it and resist the opinion of Roe now that would take courage yes it would take boldness it would take risks it would take courage of course it would uh but as I said earlier on sort of um uh assuming this question might be coming you already have states like Colorado, Washington, Oregon, California, Arizona that are already resisting uh the federal government's opinion on legislation against marijuana um they've taken bold steps to resist the federal government on an issue like marijuana which is so compelling to me but we won't take that kind of bold stand uh for the lives of these fatherless pre -born children um so all we would need to do at a state level is say for example implement legislation that defines human life from conception many of the states already have that um and uh offer legislation that criminalizes the the taking of a human life with malice aforethought to include abortion and all we would need to do is have the states uphold that legislation and just resist the federal government one uh really

01:36:08

I think powerful moment in the last year was in Texas this last year uh there was legislation uh put in uh what was his name

01:36:19

I forget the gentleman's name I think it was maybe it was Tenderholt or something to that effect well basically he was pointing to the law that's already in the books that defines human life as from conception that would criminalize abortion as murder but this is really powerful in the legislation that was submitted it was upholding essentially

01:36:38

Texas state law as it was uh nothing really spectacular and new it was just upholding

01:36:43

Texas state law but it said that if the federal government attempted to bring the state of Texas into court over the issue after they've criminalized abortion it said that the legislators in Texas are not allowed to show up to court um that was the legislation that was uh suggested was that if the federal government does try to strike down anything then

01:37:09

Texas has no obligation to show up in court to defend itself because they have the right the state's sovereign right to uphold justice at the state level and uh the supreme court's uh opinion is not a law in the first place so they they were even saying we reject the federal government's attempt to strike down what we're saying at the state level when it comes to protecting human life well thank you very much joey in clifton new jersey keep listening to iron sharpens iron radio and submitting excellent questions um well let's get to more of what we were supposed to be addressing today as specifically the blueprint for abortion mill evangelism uh i uh want you to really start with what should you not say when you're standing in front of an abortion mill well um going to the abortion mill it's ugly hard um ministry it is not the kind of ministry like homeless ministry where you're going to give somebody food and they give you a big hug afterwards or you're providing socks and a blanket for them where they're just going to really be gracious and thank you this is ugly ministry it is not easy ministry it is very difficult you could uh you're going to be cussed out you're going to be yelled at you're going to be resisted so that's the context of it um i think it's important for us when we go there to not be neutral to not pretend neutrality um one of the a couple things one is if you're going out there to be abusive in any way if there's animosity in your heart towards these mothers and fathers if there's anything within you that is uh that is corrupt as you approach this issue i would say you need to work on your heart and ask god to change your heart and don't go you cannot be abusive you cannot be abusive out there you cannot be unloving out there you need to be compassionate uh you need to be truthful of course you need to be kind you need to demonstrate love and concern for these mothers and fathers uh do not be abusive um i would say if you enjoy um if you enjoy the cutting nature of this message uh and and it's something that you actually enjoy telling women i would say don't go to the abortion mill um and then on the other side of it in terms of not being abusive and the other side of it i think it's important for us to be very truthful so i have seen roman catholics going out to the abortion mill they they walk around the abortion mill uh praying the rosary praying to mary uh not saying a word to the women so i would say definitely don't do that um mary's not listening and uh that's not helpful at all um the the other aspect of it is going to the abortion mill and and calling out to the women it's important that you do tell the truth so i've seen people go to the abortion mill and they have such a love and compassion and concern for these women that they say things like god forgives you god loves you i've i've seen women show up to the abortion mill with balloons uh with signs that say god loves you and he forgives you and and and what i want to say is yes in christ you'll be forgiven and yes god is god of love however in that moment we've seen it over and over and over again when those women are going in there they've been trying to satiate their consciences for a week they have been trying to resist and suppress what god has been testifying to them for that week and they are going in there banking on god's love and forgiveness i i've i've seen countless times women say to us uh as they're going in god will forgive me for what i'm about to do so when you go in there and you remind them god is just a god of love he loves you and he forgives you anyways uh when you say that to them that's what they're banking on you just help them to go through with it so we need to go there and tell the truth we can't try to manipulate these women and these men and uh try to essentially toy with their conscience we have to say the the truthful thing and that is that this is your child you're already a mother you're already a father this is your baby you're going to murder your child today please don't murder your child today so when we go there what i often try to tell people is is tell the truth do it with the spirit of grace and love and mercy but tell them the truth you have to say what it is this is murder this is your child you're not going to leave here no longer a mother you're going to leave here the mother and father of a dead child so we we tell the truth first and foremost this is murder please don't murder your child and then we give them the gospel but that hopefully that answers that first part of your question yes in fact uh a listener has an excellent follow -up bb in cumberland county pennsylvania asks what were the words used for the predominant number of women who changed their minds while walking into an abortion clinic or while walking out with the abortifacient drugs that they dumped out is there any typical thing that has been said to them or is it a wide variety of things that have been said that actually were used of god to convince them to reverse their decision of murder that's a very helpful question so i really appreciate that question what i'll do first is i want to point everyone who's listening to apologia studios on youtube and somewhere fairly recently in the videos just go to videos and look in the more recent i think the title of it is something like baby saved at abortion mill or something like that and it's me and i'm wearing like a beanie or something and uh i think i had sunglasses on so that'll be in the thumbnail and it's about a 30 minute message i was actually i'm getting over the flu right now i was sick then too um ninjas do not get the flu what are you talking about yeah right seriously so um yeah i've actually had a horrible night last night with the video i was really sick you can hear me i'm i'm super congested but um i would say please listen to that because that is that is the message that goes out and after that preaching that day at this uh abortion mill in kentucky there was at least one baby saved uh after that that preaching so please listen to that for a full explication but the message is very simple one we tell the truth we call it murder we plead with them not to murder their child um we want that to be used by god to prick their conscience um with that's an image bearer of god they know what they're doing uh they've told us they know what they're doing over and over again i know this is murder i should be able to murder my child but so we we point them back to what it is we plead with them not to murder their child we don't say we don't go out there and say you're a murderer we don't do that we plead with them please don't murder your child today ma 'am this is your baby god has blessed you with please don't murder your child today and then after really bringing the law of god to them to hopefully bring some conviction we then point them to christ that's the second part of the message we preach the gospel we tell them about the message of jesus the forgiveness they can have in turning away from sin and coming to christ and the third part is we say we'll help you what do you need from us we'll give you anything you need do you need medical services we'll bring you to a location to get those do you need shelter we'll help you to get that do you need uh financial assistance do you need cribs diapers what do you need we'll take care of all that and we even say we'll adopt your child we'll take care of everything so it's a three -part message one tell the truth this is murder plead with them not to do it second preach the gospel and third offer to help them with whatever they need um as they turn away from that place so that's that's what we move through and it and it does become rather difficult chris when someone pulls into the abortion mill and they get out of their vehicle with their boyfriend their husband and they're wearing sweats they're told to wear you know white clothing and sweats when they go in for the surgical abortion so we know that they're there for the abortion when they come dressed like that we have sometimes about 20 to 30 seconds from car door to the door of the abortion mill to communicate those three things so and it's hard because you gotta you gotta say you gotta go through that don't murder your child god will forgive you in christ if you turn from your sin and we'll help you we'll adopt your child so we run through those three things we plead with them we really lay our hearts out for these women and these men and we just we we're begging them uh to preserve the life of their child but that's fundamentally it there's nothing spectacular chris and me uh or our team um we're not mighty uh and just incredible amazing orators and and just something special about us it's just the message the message of the gospel penetrates and changes hearts and minds god's truth changes people and that's what we go out there with and we have cj from lyndon hearst long island new york who asks are women typically making professions of faith in christ when you convince them not to murder their children or are sometimes they just responding to the scientific and medical data that reveals the truth about this horrific act so the answer to that last part there is no the scientific um evidence and discussion um does not change hearts and minds as a matter of fact um when we go to the abortion mills one of the things that's that's off about the pro -life narrative is they say that we just need to convince women that this is an actual child it's their baby um no uh that is not the case when we go to the abortion mill these women tell us i know it's my baby i have a right to murder my child i can kill my child if i want they know it's their baby there's no question about that and so it's it's not about the scientific evidence because even if you demonstrate scientifically biologically which we do and we can that it's a human being from conception it's their baby um you demonstrate all of that they'll still say afterwards so what i can i need to kill this child um and so so i would say that's really really important to get um what was the first part of the question chris i forget uh well do these women typically make professions of faith in christ yeah uh so there are times where we'll be preaching to the women and they'll they'll they'll be and they'll come out of the abortion mill in tears and just stare at us and listen to us while we're calling out to them and there are times where they'll come up to us and they'll just tell us thank you for being here today i'm not going to go through with this thank you so very much and they'll just bolt and they'll leave uh there are other times where where they will come up to us we'll create a relationship with them and have an extended period of time to administer to them to talk to them to bless them uh my wife has been in conversations before with with uh a particular woman where she was going to kill her child through the uh medication my wife was able to talk her out of it and she talked to her for weeks afterwards uh there are times uh i think nationally some amazing stories of people who have come to christ at the abortion mill have turned away from killing their children and now they are out with the church uh actually now involved in the same ministry wow praise god uh let me spectrum now let me uh follow up on something you said about women not caring about the medical and scientific realities i can remember back in the 1980s the woman who led me to christ back in the 1980s had a friend who was a crack addict and this woman was counseled by her doctor to get an abortion because the doctor was convinced that this baby would be deformed or there would be something terribly wrong with it my friend sat down with this woman with a book it wasn't even about abortion uh it was a uh the photographic evidence or the photographic um technology that had evolved by that time and of course we're even talking about the 1980s so it's not even what it is today but it was it was basically a book of beautiful photographs full -color photographs of the development of human life in the womb and she sat with her with this book and the woman did not have an abortion as a result of that and she came determined she gave birth to a perfectly healthy normal baby so how do you respond to that in regard to what you just said before yeah yeah i want to make sure i'm clear on that um and this is this important we do go out there and we do have pamphlets that talk about the development of the child in the womb we do have pictures of of children in the womb we do have pictures of of of abortive uh children um to testify to the women about what they're doing and to remind them to just sort of point them back to what they're suppressing they know this is their child uh what i was referring to and maybe i just misunderstood the question what i was referring to is when somebody is opposed to us and they're trying to argue for their right to abortion the scientific evidence and the biological evidence doesn't convince them because they're committed to abortion and when you when you demonstrate to them irrefutably that this is a human life from conception and here's all the development of the child they still go back to i have the right to kill my child if i want to um and so in terms of the opposition uh using the scientific and biological evidence doesn't convince people morally um however and i i want to make sure i'm clear on this god has used he absolutely has used the testimony of the developing child in the lives of some of the women going in who are conflicted and they're about to go through with it and then they see the picture of this child in the womb and it reminds them of what they already know and god does use those signs to actually turn people away and i want to say that and this is important um we hate the graphic signs we hate them um i hate holding them i think that they're horrible um i i really struggle with them myself but god has used those graphic images to turn many people away from from the abortion mill who are going to have an abortion um and so we we try to use all of those things but but the aim of it all is to point them back to jesus to what god says in his word um all of that stuff is is used to buttress the point of the gospel amen and we have an anonymous listener who says i am actively involved in pro -life uh events and so on and i strongly opposed to abortion as murder i have been to several print shops to get t -shirts made that i have designed that have a beautiful picture of an unborn child on the front of the t -shirt and it says life on the back of the t -shirt i wanted to have an aborted baby who had been murdered and have murder written above it i cannot find any print shop that will print this t -shirt do you have any advice and counsel on this sure um i think that uh find a christian print shop so uh i think if you find a print shop owned by christians do you happen to know of any because obviously that wouldn't necessarily matter if they were local you could probably uh email somebody a graphic image yeah yeah i think that uh let's see here i know that there's a christian company called mission aware uh mission aware uh does t -shirts you might be able to contact mission aware and have them produce that for you um let's see here i think i think there's a company called og apparel it's a christian uh uh apparel and print company uh og apparel we have some friends over there they've got some great stuff high quality stuff they should be able to help you as well um and if some if you just if you send me a message um at contact at apology at church .com

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maybe i can try to look around and find something local to you but you may have to just call a christian print company or apparel company and just talk to them and have them do it for you you can definitely find somebody that's willing to do it now i i know that some of my listeners are going to roll their eyes because they've heard me say this many times but one thing that i'm baffled by is why aren't more conservative individuals in the media like those who profess to be on fox news why aren't they insisting and even political candidates themselves that are pro -life why are they not insisting that at least every election cycle that there be a televised abortion uh so that people can vote with intelligence with an education about what's going on i'm amazed that to my knowledge fox news has never aired one i was amazed years ago when pat buchanan was running for president and he was a guest on a radio program uh that was being aired on the station i worked for and i called in it was a live call -in show and i said to pat buchanan why is it that nobody seems to be insisting or even just moving forward with themselves uh purchasing airtime to air an abortion so people really know what know what's going on just as those who really were convinced of what happened during the holocaust in nazi germany many people didn't believe it until they saw those newsreels when they saw the the mountains of skeletal bodies and so on when they saw that the ovens were being opened up and the remains of human beings in there but many people uh did not believe until that was available on film and i was shocked that pat buchanan said to me uh said to everybody on the air uh well we wouldn't want to do that that would be like televising an execution and i said yeah that's my point what are your thoughts about that what i said to pat buchanan and his response well i think that um that goes to the heart of i think the problem is pro -life legislators will say i'm pro -life in the runoff of pro -life campaign because they know that's where they'll get their votes christians will vote for someone that says that they're going to end abortion and so they stand in that position but they don't act consistently with it they don't treat it as like what it is it's murder and if you truly believe that it's murder then you're going to do the kind of thing that you're talking about you're going to expose it you're going to show the graphic images you're going to testify to what is actually going on you know we have lots of pictures of the holocaust the dead bodies piled on top of one another the sick the sickly bodies and the broken bodies of these jewish these these jewish people uh who were just tortured and and murdered and we have that as a matter of historic historical record that we use to constantly testify to the evil of that institution and that moment in in in human history and experience and we use it to i think inoculate people from that kind of practice ever again in the future um and so yes i think that the graphic images are absolutely necessary and what i will point people to and i'll warn you ahead of time i want to make sure that i make this very very clear this is not easy to see but it needs to be seen if you go to abortion no .org

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it's the center for bioethical reform abortion no .org there's a video that comes up on the front page and it gives you a warning ahead of time and it says a graphic video starting in like five seconds and it's actual it's it's footage of actual abortions taking place and um i it's not i'm not comfortable watching that it's not easy to watch but that does need to be seen and we need to make sure that other people see that so i would be all for a pro -life legislator who's running a campaign um putting that video or video like it on their website uh to testify to the reality of abortion it needs to be something that's not hidden it's brutal yeah amen and uh it's it's a really double it's a clear example of a double standard there because you have people you would never have somebody publicly saying oh we should never show those old newsreels of the victims of the holocaust you would be viewed as a racist or a nut or something if you were to say that and yet right even pro -life people are saying oh no don't do that that's uh that's over the top that's crazy you don't don't show those yeah it does speak chris to the inconsistency um that we see i think in all of us but in terms of approaching us to say let's fix it let's reform it the inconsistency in the pro -life movement is we we don't often treat it as what it actually is murder we don't act like it's murder we don't do what it takes to end it because it's murder um it it in some respects unfortunately it becomes like a click you're you're involved in i'm pro -life and you ask what does that actually mean what consequence is there because you're pro -life how does it affect the future and the answer many times is well not really or not enough or nothing substantial and so i think that we ought to really act like this is what it is and that means we're going to have to show it at times we're going to use graphic images we're going to call it what it is we're going to make sure that we say the hard truth at times to people uh that we care about and um and uh yeah it's it's it's a lot of work ahead of us but it's going to take courage chris um i i realize that it's going to take a lot of courage from christians um it's going to take a lot of uh persecution and it'll take a lot of uh boldness on the part of legislators to do what is actually right and to take bold stands and i know that your websites are apology at church .com

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apology at church .com and also apology studios .com apology studios .com