June 22, 2020 Show with J. Ryan Davidson on “Green Pastures: A Primer on the Ordinary Means of Grace”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation, to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth, who are listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 22nd day of June, 2020.

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And I'm thrilled to have back on the program, J. Ryan Davidson. He is a

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Ph .D. candidate at the Free University of Amsterdam, researching pastoral theology in the early church period, and he's pastor at Grace Baptist Chapel, a

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Reformed Baptist congregation in Hampton, Virginia. Today he's going to be addressing his book,

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Green Pastures, a Primer on the Means of Grace, which is published by Reformed Baptist Academic Press.

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And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, J. Ryan Davidson.

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Thanks, Chris. It's good to be back with you, brother. I'm going to immediately give our e -mail address out in the event that we have listeners who would like to ask you a question.

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And that e -mail address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

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And as always, when you're sending in a question, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

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USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter. Let's say you hear a doctrinal issue being discussed.

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You want to ask a question about it, but you disagree with your own pastor or the predominant members of your church.

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Or perhaps you're even a pastor and you disagree with your own elders or your denomination over this issue or over the issue that you're writing about.

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Well, those are very good reasons to remain anonymous.

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But if it's just a general question, please just give us at least your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

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Well, first of all, I would love to hear just a little bit more about your candidacy for a

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Ph .D. at the Free University of Amsterdam. I understand, as I just mentioned in your introduction, that you're researching pastoral theology in the early church period, which has got to be fascinating because obviously there are a lot of practices that went on, especially probably involving ecclesiology and church polity, that were present in the patristic era and so on and earlier that may not necessarily reflect what

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Baptists believe and Baptist practice. Of course, we believe that our church polity is biblical, but as you know as a student of history, it didn't take very long for the church to start to develop extra -biblical ideas very early on after the apostolic era.

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But if you could, tell us about that in brief. Certainly, brother.

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Lord willing, hopefully in the next few months I'll be finished with it. It's in the last stages of review right now, but the dissertation is really looking at pastoral care within the first 200 years of the early

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Christian movement. And because of the need for a Ph .D. to be very focused, my particular focus is on the pastoral care and I'll even use a modern word, the counseling provided to the

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Christian family within the Christian movement. So it's kind of a very targeted, specific focus and narrowed down to the first 200 years of Christianity, and it's been a fascinating study.

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Dave, perhaps sometime we can have you on to discuss your doctoral dissertation. Certainly, certainly.

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And tell us about Grace Baptist Chapel in Hampton, Virginia. Well, it's a wonderful church.

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I'm biased, of course, my wife Christy and I. We have four kids. We've been at Grace now for just at 12 years.

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And Grace has been a church that has existed for about 40 years or so, but over the last few years we've become a confessionally reformed

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Baptist church, always had Calvinistic roots, but become a confessionally reformed Baptist church and we're growing and by God's grace he is at work within the body.

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So it's a sweet fellowship. Well, praise God. And if anybody wants more information about Grace Baptist Chapel in Hampton, Virginia, go to gracebaptistchapel .net,

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gracebaptistchapel .net. Well, the title of your book, as I've mentioned in the outset of the broadcast,

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Green Pastures, a Primer on the Ordinary Means of Grace. Just out of curiosity, are you tying in Psalm 23 to that theme of the ordinary means of grace?

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Yes, yes. In fact, on the very last page of the book,

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Psalm 23 is listed there. So absolutely. And the ordinary means of grace, that may be an unfamiliar phrase to those outside of Reformed theology.

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In fact, there are some who might claim to be within Reformed theology, those that we would call hyper -Calvinists, who deny, and of course the hyper -Calvinistic movement is not a monolithic group, but many of them deny that God uses means of grace at all.

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They would say that that is an Arminian mindset that would lead you to believe that God uses means.

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In fact, many in the primitive Baptist denomination, which is largely but not completely hyper -Calvinist, they even would call it the means doctrine, and they don't mean that favorably.

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But if you could tell us exactly what you mean by the ordinary means of grace. Certainly. The working definition

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I use in the book, there are several different ways that you could state this, but I came up with this, that the ordinary means of grace are the instruments

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Christ ordinarily uses to birth and strengthen the faith of the elect as he is present among them.

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And we use the term ordinary means, that word ordinary in common discussion or parlance often sometimes means simple, not special, but by ordinary we mean these are the things that the

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Lord in his word has said he will regularly use and bless in the life of those who attend to these things in faith.

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And so in the pages of Scripture we see ordinary means specified there for us, that we are to go to, and those specifically are preaching, sacraments or ordinances, and prayer.

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There are many, many means the Lord uses in the life of a believer.

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A radio interview, a podcast, a blog, a good Christian book, but those are extraordinary means.

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The regular means that the Scripture says the Lord will use in the life of the believer are, as I just mentioned, preaching, prayer, and the ordinances.

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And so the focus in that definition is that there are instruments or means that he uses and that they are instruments that a risen, reigning, and present

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Christ uses among his people. So that's just a little bit of an introduction there.

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And how would a Reformed understanding of the ordinary means of grace differ from sacerdositalism, for instance, or a false or even idolatrous understanding of the sacraments?

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Certainly. I mean, I think probably the main thing that we could say is that the means of grace are means that the

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Spirit of God uses among his people, particularly as it relates to the sacraments in particular, as you mentioned, as they attend to them in faith.

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And so we shouldn't view these means as physical acts which have power in and of themselves, nor should we view them as things that we should worship or idolize or go to outside of the understanding that they are things that the

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Lord himself is using among his people. So when we think of ordinances or sacraments, we shouldn't think that immersing someone in water or coming to a table with bread and wine has power in and of itself.

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But as the Spirit of God is at work among the faithful, these are means that he uses.

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And I think that's the key distinction. Great. Well, we do have a listener already who actually is remaining anonymous.

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The anonymous listener asks, I'm going through in my church some time of puzzlement over the

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Reformed Baptist understanding of the Lord's Supper. I had all my life previously believed the

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Lord's Supper to be a memorial only, but now I'm learning other things that Reformed Christians believe that would include the real presence of Christ in the sacrament, etc.

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Can you please explain this to me? Because I just don't get a mental grasp of how this is a biblical teaching and how it would be separate from the heresies of Roman Catholicism.

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Well, obviously, you could spend two hours answering that question. Certainly. But if you could give as best a summary answer to that as you possibly can.

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Sure. Well, I appreciate the question, and it's a good one. I think any answer is going to be too short.

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But just to be brief, I think when we look at Paul's instruction to the church at Corinth, you know, in 1

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Corinthians chapter 10 and verse 16, he's comparing the practice of the

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Christian church to the idolatrous feasts that occur in kind of secular pagan

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Corinth. And one of the things that he says is he references the Lord's Supper. He says, the bread that we break, the cup that we bless, is it not a participation in the body or the blood of Christ?

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The word used there is the Greek word koinonia, fellowship, participation.

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And so we're meant to understand that when we come to the table, we are in a participation of spiritual means with the

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Lord Christ. Now, we could say that that means, okay, the bread and the wine or juice, if the church is using that, that turns into the body and blood of Christ.

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This is the transubstantiation view of the Roman Catholic Church. But of course, we would say that that is not at all what is being discussed, but rather that when a person comes to the table in faith,

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Christ, by the Spirit, is spiritually present among the believers.

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And there's a lot we could say about the spiritual presence view. It differs from our

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Lutheran brothers and sisters and, of course, the Roman Catholic or even Eastern Orthodox view. But I think 1

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Corinthians 10 -16 is a crucial text, among some others. That's initially where I would start.

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And of course, there are a whole swath of works on this issue, particularly coming out of the

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Reformation, that we could talk about historically. But that's a good start, I think, to define the difference.

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Yes, unfortunately, our Roman Catholic friends, if they are knowledgeable of Catholic rhetoric, or if they are knowledgeable of Catholic apologetics, when the

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Catholic apologists seize in the patristic evidence that most, if not all, of the

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Church Fathers believed in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, they equate that with transubstantiation.

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So they think that that's a proof that transubstantiation was taught and practiced centuries before.

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We, as Protestants, believe that heresy arose. But these are not the same thing.

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Or they don't need to be the same thing. Real presence and physical, bodily, miraculous transformation.

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Am I right? Right. Yeah, I think so. And, well, thank you, anonymous listener.

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And by the way, you have received, or will receive, a free copy of Green Pastures, a primer on the ordinary means of grace, by our guest today,

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J. Ryan Davidson, published by Reformed Baptist Academic Press. So please give us your full mailing address, your full name, obviously.

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None of that information will be disclosed on the air, especially since you have requested to remain anonymous.

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So thank you very much for participating in the show.

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Let's see, we have another anonymous listener. The anonymous listener says,

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I was just listening to you talk about the real presence of Christ in the

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Lord's Supper. But are we, as Reformed Christians, to have a parallel view of baptism?

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Or is baptism merely a memorial of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ and our dying with Christ and rising again in new birth?

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I think it's a good question. I think the answer, in short, would be no, and with a caveat.

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I think the Scripture speaks to the Lord's Supper as a particular meal where we have fellowship with the risen

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Christ who promises to be among His people. The caveat, though, is that both the

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Lord's Supper and baptism as sacraments are both visible words.

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This goes all the way back to Augustine. Many have used it. But we ought to think of both the sacraments as visible words.

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In other words, they are sermons, if you will, the Lord preaches for our senses. And so they're not just acts that we participate in, but they are things that the

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Lord in His goodness and grace have given to us as covenant signs which are the

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Word made visible. And so baptism and the Lord's Supper, we should expect in both cases that they are visible words, covenant signs.

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But we also can say that in both of them, Christ promises to be present among His church.

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It's just when I said no earlier, I think there are some distinctions that, for instance, the 1

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Corinthians 10 passage relates specifically to the Lord's Supper and not to baptism as well. But there are a lot of similarities.

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Visible words, both of them are. Covenant signs, both of them are. And we should see that Christ is present, as He promises in the

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Great Commission, to be present among His church as they baptize. So those are some of the similarities. So, and if I'm not mistaken, the majority of the evangelical church today would view these ordinances as allegories and pictures only.

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And you're saying historically the Reformed faith would have a different view, but not one that crosses the line into sacerdotalism.

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Absolutely. Absolutely. I think you summarized that well. And we obviously have to be careful not to believe that these things are absolutely essential in order for someone to have eternal life or to become regenerate.

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In fact, we believe in a Reformed ordo salutis, order of salvation, and therefore there would be nobody who is genuinely interested in receiving the ordinance of baptism or the

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Lord's Supper, and I stress the word genuinely, unless they're already regenerate, because they might be interested for a host of reasons to make their parents happy or to make their spouses happy or to make their bosses happy if their boss happens to be a member of a church of some kind.

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There could be innumerable reasons why an unregenerate person would want to be baptized and receive the

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Lord's Supper, maybe just to fit in at the church, whatever the case may be. Only a regenerate person is going to have a truly heartfelt and Christ -honoring desire for these things.

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Right. Right. So that's why the order is mixed up in many of our

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Arminian and other churches, and even our

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Roman Catholic friends in Eastern Orthodox, they believe that somebody who is born with original sin can actually conjure up out of their wicked hearts some kind of a desire for these things that honor

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God, and in the case of Romanism and Eastern Orthodoxy, that they actually bring about the gift of regeneration by receiving them.

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And I never understood, and I don't know if you have any insight into this, how

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Martin Luther could be so biblical on salvation and how he could uphold the pillars of the watchwords of the

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Reformation sola gratia, sola fide, solus

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Christus, sola scriptura, sola scriptura, and soli

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Deo gloria, how he could believe in these things and yet at the same time believe in baptismal regeneration.

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Well, I think there are a lot of people who could, particularly

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Luther scholars, who could flesh that out further. My initial take to that is that I think in God's grace the

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Reformation came about, and it was a movement, and so you can see where great stalwarts of the

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Reformation shifted by God's grace in so many ways, and yet in some senses still retained part of what they were coming out of.

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And so I think it's always helpful to view the Reformation as a movement over decades and centuries to the present time.

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And that would be my initial take as to why a person like Luther may still hold to some trappings that other people coming out of the

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Reformation today like yourself and me would not hold to. By the way, the strictly memorial or symbolic view is very often, especially when it comes to the

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Lord's Supper, is attributed very often to Ulrich Zwingli, but I've heard some historians question whether he was a strict memorialist.

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Do you know anything further about that? I'm aware of the debate, and I'm also conscious that the discussion of Zwingli and his particular view, you're right.

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I mean, if you ask the average person who knows just a little bit about church history, if you say the memorial view, they're going to point right to Zwingli, and I think there is a need for nuance there.

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I don't have chapter and verse in Zwingli's writings to point to, but I think it is fair to say that there needs to be nuance as he is read.

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If you could, break down how you present these truths of the ordinary means of grace in the book, and who would be the primary audience for the book?

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The book started out of a sermon series that our church went through several years ago, and the primary audience of the book is the person in the pew.

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Particularly, and it doesn't just have to be a Baptist, but particularly those Baptists who are maybe coming out of non -Reform settings or are not familiar with particular

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Baptist history, just to expose them to the theological components behind the doctrine, but then a little bit of the history as well.

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Really, just a couple of chapters of exposition of each of the means, and then looking at some of the systematic theology and history behind it, but it's very simply written,

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I believe. The book just kind of lays out an overarching chapter, and then it looks at each of the means individually, and then closes with a chapter on the importance of the

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Lord's Day and the gathered church. Great, and we have to go to our first station break right now.

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If you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, once again, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us at least your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter.

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Don't go away. We'll be right back with J. Ryan Davidson and more of our discussion on the ordinary means of grace, right after these messages from our sponsors.

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Call 1 -800 -669 -4878 Welcome back, this is

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Chris Arntzen your host for the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with a little less than 90 minutes to go is

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J. Ryan Davidson who is pastor at Grace Baptist Chapel in Hampton, Virginia We are discussing his book published by Reformed Academic Press Reformed Baptist Academic Press Green Pastures A Primer on the

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Ordinary Means of Grace And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own

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Our email address is ChrisArntzen at gmail .com C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com

37:17

Please, as always, give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

37:27

USA Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter and what

37:36

I'd like to do right away before I take any listener questions I'd like to read at least one of these commendations for the book

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And Carl Truman has been a guest in this program a number of times Professor of Biblical and Religious Studies at Grove City College in Grove City, Pennsylvania And Dr.

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Truman says One of the things that binds confessional Presbyterians and Reformed Baptists together is their common commitment to a ministry shaped by the ordinary means of grace

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Such a ministry is not a matter of arbitrary personal taste but driven by our understanding of exactly what

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God's grace is and how it becomes a reality in the lives of Christians This short book helps in that regard offering short, sound accounts of the words, sacraments and prayer in a manner that will help all those seeking a ministry that reflects

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Biblical priorities and teaching That's Carl Truman of Grove City College And we do have a listener question for you

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Brother Davidson It is from Johnny in Queens, New York There seems to be a loose interpretation of how and what ordinances and or sacraments within Reformed circles

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Presbyterian, Dutch Reformed, Reformed Baptist, etc. are applied practically

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What would you say are the means that actually,

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I'm sorry What would you say are the means that convey actual salvific grace to regenerate an unbeliever and the means that strengthens and sanctifies the believer?

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Well, I think that's a good question There are perhaps, there's a lot behind that question either by the person asking or those outside kind of looking at the

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Reformed perspective I think, you know, a good succinct summary and one that I can assess is in the

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London Baptist Confession of, say 1689, chapter 14, paragraph 1 there's some distinction that I think is helpful

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There the Confession says The grace of faith whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls is the work of the

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Spirit of Christ in their hearts and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the

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Word And then, the next phrase is helpful It says, by which also and by the administration of baptism and Lord's Supper, prayer, and other means appointed of God it is increased and strengthened

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And that, I think, is the helpful distinction As a Reformed Baptist, I would say that the ministry of the

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Word the proclamation of the Word is the means that the Lord uses to birth faith to bring about regeneration by the

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Spirit in the soul of the believer But it is also by the preaching of the

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Word continually, and by the administration of baptism and Lord's Supper and by prayer, that that faith which is brought by the preaching of the

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Word is strengthened and increased And I think that distinction is necessary We want to be careful that we don't assume that faith is birthed in baptism or faith is birthed in the

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Lord's Supper that those are converting ordinances And so I think that's a helpful distinction that the

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Confession, the London Confession speaks to very aptly Yes, and this would be, as we were discussing before the break in stark contrast to the

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Roman Catholic understanding of ex operi operato where the actual physical performance of the sacrament, or rite is actually giving to this person giving to this person eternal life salvation

42:06

Am I right on that? Like for instance Yes That is why, and I don't want to upset our

42:14

Presbyterian brethren but when it comes to somebody like a Roman Catholic who believes in paedo -baptism the actual rite of baptism is regenerating the soul of that lost infant and the lost infant neither has understanding of what goes on or doesn't have any kind of faith doesn't have any kind of repentance, etc.

42:46

It's the actual rite that is doing it Right, right, we would argue that the rite itself is not, as you mentioned it is not something that has power in and of itself but I do think in furthering the question that the listener just asked particularly any who might be of kind of Baptist persuasion it is something that is discussed in the writings of the early particular

43:18

Baptists and for those listeners, I'm assuming they're aware, but the early particular Baptists were a group of initial

43:26

Baptists in the 1600s coming out of the Reformation coming out of Puritan England and today we would call them

43:33

Reformed Baptists but particular Baptists like for instance, the 17th century

43:39

Benjamin Teach and I quote this in the book he writes the following phrase there is a mystical conveyance or communication of all

43:49

Christ's blessed merits to our souls through faith held forth hereby and in a glorious manner received in the right participation of it so while we need to be careful to say that it's not the

44:02

Lord's Supper that is a converting ordinance or is in and of itself powerful it is a means by which the very salvation that Christ has wrought is blessed in the life of the faithful person at the

44:25

Lord's Supper. There's more we could say about that phrase and I don't want to take it out of context, but many

44:31

Baptists who first hear this discussion of the means of grace might be surprised because they might think well that's a

44:39

Presbyterian thing or that sounds Catholic, but what we're saying is for many of us the

44:45

Supper and Baptism growing up in Baptist circles is something that is richer than many of us who didn't have a means of grace theology really understood and that's part of the reason for the book is to help people understand the blessing of the ordinary means.

45:07

Well Johnny, make sure we have your full mailing address in Queens, New York because you have won a free copy of Green Pastures, A Primer on the

45:19

Ordinary Means of Grace published by Reformed Baptist Academic Press and it is their gift to you, so make sure that we get your full mailing address.

45:30

In fact I don't know if I told both of our anonymous listeners that as well, but if both of our anonymous listeners could also

45:40

I know I mentioned this to one of them, but both of you have won a free copy, or will win a free copy of the book so make sure you both give us your mailing addresses and full names so that these books can be shipped out to you.

46:00

And thanks for the excellent questions. We have, looks like, I don't know if I've ever had this many anonymous listeners before.

46:09

We have another anonymous listener who asks what you are teaching seems to magnify the importance of the ordinances rather than them being strictly symbolic or memorials.

46:26

Therefore, has your view led you, when it comes to the Lord's Supper, for instance to a more frequent participation in it than most if not at the very least many evangelicals do and even many

46:42

Reformed people do who have it either once a month or sometimes even twice a year and when it comes to baptism do you have this administered more quickly rather than waiting sometimes even a year when some churches will only baptize people on Easter Sunday for instance, but if not that far off many churches if not most, what make their candidates for baptism wait great periods of time to be baptized for reasons that I find unbiblical?

47:22

Yes. The simple answer is yes to both. I personally have grown in my appreciation for the sacraments over the years and I think given what

47:37

I believe the Word of God says while I don't think we have a direct prescription as to the frequency of baptism in the

47:46

Lord's Supper, I do think there is every reason to think that it was a regular supper specifically a regular if not a weekly occurrence in the early church and as it relates to baptism as a

47:59

Baptist I believe that what brings a person to the waters of baptism is a profession of faith.

48:09

I do think it's at our church, in our elders interview someone who has trusted

48:16

Christ or someone who is requesting baptism, but I think there is a potential maybe damage is a strong word, but a potential missed opportunity let's say if we push off a person too long.

48:31

So our church schedules baptisms whenever there is a baptismal candidate and we observe the

48:37

Lord's Supper every other Lord's Day and I would be perfectly happy observing the Lord's Supper every week.

48:43

You know you often hear people say well if you observe the Lord's Supper every week or every other week it eventually loses its special nature or appeal.

48:53

It just kind of becomes ordinary which I would say you know we don't say that about preaching and we don't say that about prayer and so I think we certainly need to observe these sacraments, these ordinances, biblically correctly with reverence and yet I think in many of our churches we neglect them and ought to do them more regularly.

49:15

Yes I find that reason or excuse that it loses special meaning to be a non -biblical argument and like you just said, even worship itself or should

49:34

I say corporate public worship if we were going to use that logic why don't we just meet once a month?

49:43

Right. Absolutely. Excellent. Thank you

49:49

Anonymous the other Anonymous listener and please make sure you give us your full name and your mailing address so that this book that we have been addressing

50:02

Green Pastures, A Primer on the Ordinary Means of Grace can be shipped out to you as soon as possible.

50:08

Just out of curiosity, not that this would have a lot of weight attached to the discussion but it is something that I find to be a growing trend it seems that many, if not most of the

50:29

Reformed churches I'm aware of that have developed a higher view of the ordinances or sacraments and have begun when it comes to the

50:40

Lord's Supper observing it every single Sunday very often these churches also begin using fermented wine in the

50:52

Lord's table and they seem to think that this is very very important what are your views on that can those that still choose to use unfermented grape juice continue to do so with confidence that they are not violating anything biblical or should they join their fermented wine brethren in switching that element of the table to the more powerful beverage if you will

51:26

Sure I get that question from time to time and yes I do think it is a it's a growing question particularly among Baptists in America we have a particular history in this country with just prohibition and those kinds of things my short answer would be

51:48

I think that the use of wine as well as the use of grape juice are appropriate my preference is wine

52:00

I think if you read the scripture and you're seeking to utilize in a plain reading of the word what is there

52:07

I think we have every reason to believe that it would have been a fermented fruit of the vine but I don't think that the prescription is so narrow that grape juice is a complete and utter misuse of the table at our church when

52:30

I came to grace 12 years ago they only had used grape juice and we continued that tradition for a while and then we had several ask us questions my own thinking itself is why don't we use wine and so we end up using both at the table we didn't want to make that something to divide the body over and really there is no division and so we make both available my preference again is wine if I were planting a church and I only had one thing to choose

52:59

I would choose fermented beverage wine but I don't think those that are using grape juice in their churches should think that they are not coming to the

53:13

Lord's supper that they can't benefit from the table just because they are using grape juice this wouldn't be as radical a substitute as somebody who would if they didn't have them available you know some hip modern church might think it's cool to have chocolate cake and soda as substitutes for the

53:34

Lord's table which would be I'm assuming you would agree entirely inappropriate unlike the unfermented grape juice which would be acceptable right

53:46

I completely agree I think chocolate cake and soda would be very problematic but I like the way you said that I think in this case there is a fine distinction you are using the fruit of the vine in both cases so I think there may be pastoral reasons why one congregation may use one or the other or both we have to go to our midway break and this is a longer than normal break folks

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Grace Life Radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City Florida as you know if you listen to this show every day they need us to use our middle break every day to be longer because they air during this break their own public service announcements and other things that localize

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today Thank you Daniel P. Buttafuoco attorney at law, for your faithful support of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Music Music Music Music Music I'm Dr.

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When will it end? Why do disasters like this happen? How do we deal with anxiety, fear, and the like?

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Before we return to our guest, J. Ryan Davidson, we are just going to make a couple of announcements.

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First of all, please make note, especially if you have loved ones, or maybe you yourself, have been diagnosed with the coronavirus, or as I said, if you have loved ones that have been, or you're just very worried about it, tune in tomorrow because Banu Gadi, the pharmacist that you've been hearing advertised on this show, he is not only a pharmacist, by the way, but he's an elder at a biblically -solid, sovereign -grace -believing

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Also, on Wednesday, we have

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Kurt Daniel returning to Iron Trepanzan Radio. He's going to be addressing,

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I believe it's for the fifth time now, I believe it's part five of a discussion on his book,

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The History and Theology of Calvinism, and Kurt always does a really remarkable job, and I'm always learning something that I did not know before about this great subject of Calvinism.

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So he is a real brilliant guy. So make a note to tune in on Wednesday for that interview, and we've got something going every day this week.

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01:17:22

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01:17:33

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I need a church in the subject line. So I hope that you do that soon so you can rectify your churchless experience as a

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So I hope I can help you rectify that. And send that email to chrisarnson at gmail dot com and put

01:18:07

I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to our guest today,

01:18:14

J. Ryan Davidson. And by the way, if you hear a rattling noise, that's because there's a deluge going on outside.

01:18:21

It's really raining very hard here in Pennsylvania. But that email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

01:18:29

If you have a question for J. Ryan Davidson on the ordinary means of grace, and that's once again chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

01:18:41

Let's see. We do have John in Bangor, Maine who has a question for you.

01:18:48

He says, If God is completely and totally sovereign over all things and 100 % to receive the glory for our salvation, we contribute nothing to it at all.

01:19:02

Why does he need to use means at all? I think it's potentially a lengthy answer we could give, but I think the short version would be that he chooses to do so.

01:19:22

The Lord God has made us as finite creatures. He has placed us in the world, the world of sounds, the world of food, the world of means that we partake of all of the time.

01:19:40

And the Lord has chosen to utilize means in the lives of the elect to bring them to faith and to strengthen and increase their faith.

01:19:53

And so I think a short answer is for his own glory. He has chosen to utilize the means that he has.

01:20:03

Matt, can you, out of your own study of this subject, let our listeners know some things that you've observed that makes salvation even more beautiful and meaningful to we humans because of this?

01:20:23

Certainly. I think it's helpful to consider the doctrine of covenant dealings with man and the confession that our church utilizes, what

01:20:37

I confess, the London Baptist Confession of Faith, chapter 7, it speaks to God's covenant.

01:20:44

And I think it's helpful for us to remember that the means of grace are messages, if you will, of God's covenant work among a people.

01:20:56

The proclamation of the new covenant grace that is available in Christ, baptism of the

01:21:04

Lord's Supper, our covenant signs, and why that enriches our understanding. Can a person be a believer and not have a robust covenant theology?

01:21:15

Absolutely. But it's helpful because we see the richness of God who makes covenant with his people and then gives them covenant signs in the

01:21:27

Lord's Supper and in baptism. And so I think that's one example of how the means of grace are connected to other doctrines related to God's work among his people in salvation.

01:21:45

Great. Well, thank you for that. Let's see here. We have

01:21:50

CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York. And CJ asks,

01:21:57

I can readily understand the great danger of someone falling into a salvation system that would include the necessity of observing sacraments in order to be saved, which would be a violation of sola fide and clearly condemned as a false gospel in the book of Galatians and other places.

01:22:22

But what are the dangers of the other extreme of being a pure and strict memorialist?

01:22:31

That's a good and astute question that CJ asks. I think, in short, the danger of the other extreme is an anemic faith, if you will, a faith that is not nurtured and nourished in the way that the

01:22:52

Lord has ordained. The person who comes to Christ and has faith but is absent from the preaching of the

01:23:01

Word regularly is not coming to the table or baptism, is not involved in the prayers of God's people or personal prayer, is going to have an underdeveloped and a malnourished faith, if you will.

01:23:17

Now, as it relates to the specific question that CJ asked, the memorialist view,

01:23:24

I think, in one sense, that a person with a memorialist view can benefit from the

01:23:29

Lord's table as a memorialist. But when we come to understand what

01:23:36

I think the Scripture teaches regarding the spiritual presence of Christ in the supper, regarding the supper being a visible word, a proclamation, a sermon, if you will, of the

01:23:47

Lord to those people and to them, then I think that the understanding of the richness of the supper causes us to benefit even more from it when we come to it, and it also helps us as the

01:24:04

Church to prioritize it. So I think that would be the danger in not, you know, valuing the ordinary means of grace.

01:24:14

And even sometimes of just having a memorialist view is that we don't benefit as much as we could from lack of understanding what these means are.

01:24:26

By the way, Brother Davidson, your voice occasionally for the first time started getting a little garbled.

01:24:35

I don't know if you were doing anything different on your end or if it's because of this rainstorm. But perhaps if you could, we'll go to our final break a couple of minutes early, and we'll have you call back if that's all right?

01:24:49

Sure, certainly. And we're going to have our guest call back, and we're going to go to our final advertising break.

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So don't go away. We'll be back right after these messages from our sponsors. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

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If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

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has a very vast assortment of Christian titles from many different publishers.

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But anyway, we are back with our guest, J. Ryan Davidson, and we are going to be continuing for another 20 minutes or so our discussion on his book,

01:40:18

Green Pastures, a Primer on the Ordinary Means of Grace. Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:40:26

chrisarnson at gmail .com. And as always, please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

01:40:36

USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

01:40:45

We have, let's see, Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, who says, when it comes to 1

01:40:59

Corinthians chapter 11, there are some frightening words that are contained about the

01:41:07

Lord's Supper that I'm sure you are familiar with. If we start at verse 27,

01:41:14

Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the

01:41:25

Lord. But a man must examine himself, and in so doing, he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup.

01:41:36

For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.

01:41:44

For this reason, many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep, which is a reference to death.

01:41:52

But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the

01:42:00

Lord, so that we will not be condemned along with the world. What exactly does it mean to eat in an unworthy manner?

01:42:11

I certainly don't want to be guilty of that. Certainly, it's a good question.

01:42:20

In this book, Green Pastures, I have a short chapter on the Lord's Supper, and there's a footnote there where I reference an earlier book that I wrote just on the

01:42:32

Lord's Supper called A Covenant Feast. And in that work, I deal more extensively with the passage that the listener has mentioned.

01:42:42

But in short, I think context is helpful in First Corinthians.

01:42:48

Some would say that eating the bread and drinking the cup, coming to the

01:42:54

Lord's table in an unworthy manner means that you are not considering church unity.

01:43:01

Others would say that phrase, discerning the

01:43:06

Lord's body there in verse 29, has to do with properly understanding that the sign of bread and wine point to the thing signified, which is

01:43:18

Christ's body. And so when we come to the Lord's table without understanding properly who

01:43:26

Christ is and what He's done, His body and blood, then we're partaking in an unworthy manner.

01:43:32

I think you could have elements of both, but I certainly think it is necessary when we come to the table to come with faith in This is a meal for prepared people.

01:43:46

We come with repentance of sin, but not to minimize what is mentioned here in the warning.

01:43:54

We also need to be careful that we don't make the table something that we're afraid to come to, as well.

01:44:05

So, you know, I encourage people, confess sin, repent of any known sin, prepare yourself when you know that you're going to be coming to the table by prayerfully going to the

01:44:19

Christ of the gospel, repenting of sin. If there are blatant situations of disunity in the body, seek to ameliorate those, to restore those, but then come in faith to the

01:44:31

Lord's Supper. So there are a variety of views as to what is specifically referenced in 1

01:44:37

Corinthians 11, but I think two dominant views are a right understanding of the body and blood of Christ as signified in the table, and the need for church unity or individual unity with brothers and sisters in the faith.

01:44:57

But again, that other work that I wrote, A Covenant Feast, deals with this in more detail.

01:45:04

Yes, and you can also hear that recording on irontrepanzeinradio .com later on. If you want to go to the archive at irontrepanzeinradio .com

01:45:13

and click where it says Past Shows Podcast, just look up J.

01:45:19

Ryan Davidson, and you will see the Covenant Feast interview listed there among other interviews.

01:45:31

And so we hope that you are blessed by that. You can also type in Covenant Feast, and it will come up right away.

01:45:42

So enjoy that. It was an excellent interview, as I recall. And in fact, the first time we had him on, we only listed him as Ryan Davidson.

01:45:55

So if you're looking for that specific interview, type in Ryan Davidson.

01:46:05

How have you personally observed either from churches where you are personally aware of what's going on at these congregations, or from what you've read historically, how churches have been positively transformed and enriched and have benefited greatly from growing in their understanding of the ordinances as a means of grace?

01:46:41

They may have not held that view originally, may have, as we have been discussing, those that have the strictly memorialist view, they may have begun that way, but have moved on to a view that would include them as a means of grace.

01:46:57

What does the great benefit and transformation look like? That's a good question, brother.

01:47:06

I think there are several things I could say. The first is that when we come to understand specifically the ordinances or the sacraments of Baptism and the

01:47:16

Lord's Supper as ordinary means of grace, and we begin to prioritize them, it shifts how a church thinks about ministry.

01:47:27

We live in a day where churches are trying to do all kinds of things, and oftentimes minimize the very things which the

01:47:36

Lord Christ has ordained for His church as He's present among them, to be the ordinary, regular things.

01:47:43

And so I think, number one, it has a way of changing how the church thinks about ministry and its purpose.

01:47:52

But then, secondly, I think I've seen even at our own church, as we've placed an increasing priority on the sacraments, on the ordinances,

01:48:04

I've seen people grow in their faith. Those wrestling with issues of assurance and salvation coming to the table and receiving the elements and the change in theology, perhaps, has given them an increasing understanding that it is

01:48:25

Christ who is making Himself known in the Supper. And so I think there is a corporate change that occurs, but I think on the individual level, as we prioritize them, we see them as God's good gifts that we go to and that they're for our edification, and we begin to rest increasingly in what

01:48:46

He's done as He simply uses preaching, prayer, and sacraments as the predominant means to grow us.

01:48:54

And that simplicity is something that gives us, over time, or can give us a sense of peace and trust in what

01:49:00

God is doing among His sheep. Well, I'd like you to, uninterrupted, have about five minutes where you summarize what you most want our listeners to remember about the book that you've written, and the theme especially,

01:49:19

The Ordinary Means of Grace, before our program is off the air. Certainly.

01:49:28

I would say that this topic has been one of an increasing special value in my own life.

01:49:39

I, as a pastor, am very desirous for people in my own congregation, for believers all across the world, to understand that the

01:49:50

Lord has said that He is going to use specific things, that He has attached the promise of blessing, if you will, in them.

01:50:03

And those things are preaching, prayer, and the sacraments.

01:50:10

And as we think about those things, I would encourage the listener to consider various texts of Scripture.

01:50:19

You know, that's what I do in the book. I just go one by one. And really, each of these things are ultimately about God's Word.

01:50:31

Christ, the crucified, risen, and ascended Lord, promises to be present with His churches.

01:50:38

We see Christ in the book of the Revelation, pictured there, standing among the lampstands, standing among His churches.

01:50:46

And we see in the Scriptures, whether it's Acts 20 verse 32, 1

01:50:53

Corinthians chapter 10 verse 16, or of course 1 Corinthians 11, and other passages, we see the writers, writing under the inspiration of the

01:51:06

Holy Spirit, pointing to what the risen Christ, who stands among His churches, chiefly uses to grow them in the faith.

01:51:14

And we live in a day of a lot of substitutes. We are no longer structuring our worship services in many places, according to how the

01:51:24

Lord regulates His worship. And because of that, we have cast off preaching, or minimized it.

01:51:31

We've minimized sacraments. We've downplayed the role of prayer, specifically public prayer, in our worship services.

01:51:40

And as a result, the very things which the Lord has said in His Word, that He will use, that He will bless, we have minimized.

01:51:50

And we're looking for substitutes. And I think I give this example in the book discussing this, but, you know, my wife and I have four children.

01:52:01

And we have realized that one of the things that our children need are regular meals, of course.

01:52:11

But when you give children snacks all the time, then they kind of lose their appetite for the nutritious food, you know, that is offered regularly at mealtime.

01:52:22

And so we had to come to the place where we said, hey, let's cut out some of the snacks so that the children come to the table more hungry, and they actually eat the food that is more nutritious than the snack bin.

01:52:35

Well, similarly in the Christian life, we've gone to all kinds of snacks or emotional experiences, rather than these ordinary means that contain the very things that we need, that the

01:52:47

Lord says that He will use. And so I would encourage the reader, the listener, if they have time, to pick up a copy of the book and read it with the

01:52:58

Bible open, and just see what the Lord says in His Word about how

01:53:03

He will nurture their faith, utilizing through His Spirit these means.

01:53:09

In the final chapter, I talk about the importance of the Lord's Day. The book doesn't have a full treatment of the

01:53:15

Sabbath or the Lord's Day, but that is actually something that we've minimized in American Christianity as well.

01:53:22

And so the book is structured with the understanding that the Lord is the Great Shepherd who brings

01:53:28

His sheep into the sheep pen of His Church and feeds them in a regular rhythm of meals through the means of grace and He has told us what that rhythm is.

01:53:43

It's Lord's Day gathering after Lord's Day gathering through the regular means. Christ, the

01:53:49

Great Shepherd, feeds His sheep in the green pastures of the means of grace.

01:53:56

So those are some things that I would say. Well, praise God. Well, we have time for just a couple more questions,

01:54:07

I guess. We have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who asks, we already addressed the issue on the nonsensical excuse for not having a frequent observance of the

01:54:26

Lord's Supper, that it makes it less meaningful. Obviously, as you already stated, that would open up a doorway for doing a lot of other important things a lot less frequently.

01:54:39

But I was wondering, how can we preserve that special and unique view of the ordinances that may, unfortunately, because we are sinners after all, start to diminish in their importance in our minds, not necessarily because of the frequency with which we observe them, but they just become so much a part of our regular life that we may take them for granted?

01:55:11

I think it's a great question. And briefly, I would just say, I think we should view them as a part of the

01:55:18

Lord's Day and we should prioritize the Lord's Day. And, you know, the

01:55:24

Puritans, as many have noted, called the Sabbath of the Lord's Day the market day of the soul.

01:55:32

And we ought to prepare, and our weeks ought to revolve around the

01:55:39

Lord's Day or Sunday. And so one of the things we do at our church is we try to send out a preparation guide to our congregation on Fridays.

01:55:48

Here are the Scripture passages that will be read, or here is the sermon text.

01:55:55

Here are some songs that we will sing. Carefully consider, over the weekend leading up to the

01:56:02

Lord's Day, the fact that you will be coming to the table. Consider that as the feast that the

01:56:07

Lord gives you, and a feast where you will meet with Him in a unique way. And so I think it's a good question.

01:56:13

We certainly don't want to observe the Lord's Supper frequently and yet have a callous view of it.

01:56:20

We want to prepare for it to be a weekly, or every other week, or however often we observe it, to be a feast that is so crucial.

01:56:31

It is the meal of all meals for us. And so every time we know we're coming to the Lord's table, we should prayerfully ask the

01:56:38

Spirit to give us a right view of it and preparation for it.

01:56:46

Okay, we've got another anonymous listener who says, I am concerned that the church where I am a member does not bring the

01:56:57

Lord's table with several members to keep in the tradition of having two or more gathered together to a nursing home or a hospital to administer the

01:57:11

Lord's Supper to the patient or resident. I was wondering why is there such a prohibition of this, especially amongst

01:57:19

Reformed Christians, when most of them, as far as I know, would not hesitate to baptize a patient or resident in a hospital or nursing home?

01:57:30

And because of the very serious importance of the Lord's Supper, why are we allowing precious members of the faith who, by no fault of their own, are prevented from gathering with us as the body to celebrate the

01:57:48

Eucharist? Well, in short, I think in a

01:57:53

Reformed understanding of Scripture, we see that the Lord's table is to be tied directly to the

01:58:01

Word, that the ministry of the Word and the administration of the sacrament of the

01:58:06

Supper are to go together. Now, I know in some Reformed contexts, people will observe the

01:58:12

Lord's Supper on the Lord's Day, and a small group with one of the elders or pastors within that Reformed congregation may go to a nursing home and, as an extension of that service, have the

01:58:28

Lord's Supper with that person. Now, that's going to vary, and I'm not saying that that should be done or shouldn't be done, but I think my hunch is that Reformed congregations really want to protect the

01:58:44

Lord's Supper not simply as a stand -alone act, but as something that should accompany the ministry of the

01:58:51

Word. And I would imagine that whatever context this listener is perhaps in, that may be at play in the

01:59:01

Reformed congregations that he or she may be observing. There's likely a lot more there, we could say, but that's probably at least an initial part of the question.

01:59:11

Well, we are out of time. I want to make sure you have the website for Grace Baptist Church of Hampton, I'm sorry,

01:59:17

Grace Baptist Chapel of Hampton, Virginia. It's gracebaptistchapel .net, gracebaptistchapel .net.

01:59:25

And don't forget about Reformed Baptist Academic Press, either.

01:59:31

That website is rbap .net, rbap .net.

01:59:38

Thank you so much, Pastor Davidson. It's been such a joy to have you on the program. I hope to have you back on frequently in the future.

01:59:45

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.