Responding to Patty Bonds and the Roman Catholic Apologists

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And good evening and welcome to the dividing line yes, I did say good evening This is a special impromptu edition of the dividing line
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We normally would be in channel talking with folks, but we just got k -lined Too many connections somebody doesn't know who we are and just just k -lined us.
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We are histoire. Someone's gonna have to somehow find some way of Doing something about that.
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That's just lovely anyways Maybe some of the ops in the channel might go into the channels area and say could you please
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Unban the people who own your single most active channel in all of Starlink IRC we would very much appreciate that And please remember not to k -line them in the future again anyways
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Just Just as we were coming on the air man boom we're gone, and we are we are banned from our own our own channel
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That's just great anyways Special edition of the dividing line tonight because we are not going to be able to do it tomorrow at our normal time on Saturday and Then that's good confuse everybody completely because over the
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Sunday time all the rest of you play with your clocks Let's see this is the fallbacks for its spring forest fallback, so I guess you fall back or something anyways like I said
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We don't play with our clocks and and you all go do your thing and and now we're gonna be back in mountain time or something like that, and there'll only be a two -hour difference between us and folks on the
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East Coast and so people are gonna be Coming in an hour into the program or an hour early going what times program and this would be all
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Massive confusion and things like that, but anyways, so we're doing the program this evening So that we don't get
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Too many complaint letters because next the Saturday after that we're not gonna be able to do any program at all because that is the
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Saturday of the debate with John Sanders on the subject of open theism and that will be in Orlando, Florida and The Friday night before that will be a debate with John Sanders on inclusivism so two debates two nights in Florida on two extremely important subjects inclusivism and open theism we continue to seek to uphold
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The truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and I think it's very important I think most of our friends know we do this but Some people may may wonder well.
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You know it's one thing to go deal with the Mormons It's another thing to do go and defend the Trinity against the
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Jehovah's Witnesses Something else to go defend justification by grace through faith alone against the
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Roman Catholics But when you start turning your guns on your own people well, it's not a matter of turning your guns it's a matter of course of being consistent and if we're going to say for example that the
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Roman Catholics are an error for detracting from the glory of God for Introducing synergism then we need to be consistent and when people on our side of the fence quote -unquote do the same thing
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Then we need to be consistent. We it's the only way to do apologetics in a meaningful fashion Unfortunately that generally results in a lot of people not liking what you're doing
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But you know that's just the way it is and that's how we're we're dealing with it so anyways
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We are dealing with those issues and that means that there won't be a dividing line next week so instead of going for two weeks, we're going to go ahead and do a live dividing line this evening and then of course make that available for people who tune in tomorrow on Saturday and Then we will not be able to do a program after that There'll only be one week that we'll be missing there and and we'll go from there
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So what are we going to be doing this evening? Well, I knew it was coming of course And that is you may recall
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Twice so far this year we have dealt with the subject of Patti Patrick Bonds as she now calls herself
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Patricia Bonds actually and her conversion to Roman Catholicism and the use of Her conversion to Roman Catholicism by Roman Catholic apologists
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We first addressed this issue if you go back in the archives of the dividing line
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February 16th 2002 when
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Patti appeared on EWTN's the journey home and so if you go to straightgate .com
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slash AOM You will see the archive listing for the real audio versions of the dividing line.
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You'll see February 16th 2002 That's where we first addressed this up that point in time.
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We had to not address the issue We'd had many people who are writing to us, but we chose to I specifically demanded that we respond in a proper way leave what is private private and If my sister chose to go public then we would respond to anything that she would have to say truth demands that And so when she decided to do so in early
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February of 2002 then we responded February 16th Played sections of it and responded to the claims that were made there then
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After my Long Island trip and my debate against Patrick Madrid in July of this year
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Patti Patrick Bonds appeared on Catholic answers live. And of course we talked about that on August 3rd of 2002 and That archive is also available the same
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URL before straightgate .com slash AOM for August 3rd 2002 Responding to playing sections from the
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Catholic answers live Presentation that had been I think two days it was
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July 10th as I recall the day before the debate with Patrick Madrid And we responded to that and you may recall that I mentioned at that time least
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I think I mentioned at that time. Maybe I mentioned after that. I don't recall but I mentioned at that time that there had been a question and answer period at the end of the evening of the debate and a particular
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Roman Catholic individual had stood up and had asked a question concerning the subject of My sister's converse actually hadn't let's take that back.
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He asked He asked a question that he tried to pretend was about the can of scripture, but it was actually just a pretense
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That would allow him to mention the issue of my sister's conversion and I Had responded to his question and then unfortunately
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Patrick Madrid had chosen I think in a very Classless fashion to take that opportunity in responding to my response to Promote a book that was to be coming out in October called surprised by truth 3 now
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We've addressed some of the issues in some of the surprised by truth series. I continue to think that the titles
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Have been providentially ordained of God Because that title surprised by truth can be read in two different ways
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Obviously the intention on their part is that they were surprised by the truth of the Catholic Church But I think when you read these conversion stories
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You can read them another way and that is that these individuals would be surprised by truth if they knew what it was
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They do not know what it is and the manifest subjectivity and confusion that is part and parcel of these conversion stories makes that very very plain unfortunately and The amount of subjectivism and emotionalism and everything else and we've reviewed some of these if you go to our website
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There are some reviews from the original surprised by truth the volume there that were written a long long time ago
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So we are certainly familiar with them. It struck me a number of times that I Remember back in the in the 80s when
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I first started encountering The materials of Catholic answers that they sort of they talk down the conversion stories
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Because most the conversion story books were Roman Catholics who had converted from Roman Catholicism And there are lots of books like that.
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It's not like these are anything new And in fact, there's entire entire books of former Roman Catholic priests who have left the
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Roman Catholic Church and and The the Catholic apologists would talk those down.
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Well who wants to go to former members? I mean they have an axe to grind and that's not that's not good apologetics.
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That's that's emotional and frequently there were there were emotional reasons and You know all the rest of stuff and now all of a sudden conversion books are all the rage you listen to EWTN That's all you ever hear
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There's a problem with conversion stories though. Of course, most of them are extremely shallow by nature. They have to be
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Most these folks are brand new and it's not like they've had a whole lot of time to Study a whole lot of stuff and and so it's it's you know, how many volumes these can you put out?
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They start becoming extremely repetitive. How many times you say I found out solo scripture is not true
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And every time you you know encounter these folks and press they've they've never given much of a thought
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They didn't know what soul scripture was before and So on and so forth and so it's it's it's an interesting phenomenon to watch but anyhow
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Surprised by truth 3 was going to be coming out and So I knew that there was going to be a chapter in there from My sister and I was pretty you know,
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I I knew what it was going to be saying pretty much so and So it it did finally come out
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I was not sent a copy myself, but a copy was sent to my parents which was immediately provided to me and I've had the opportunity of reading through the the materials and Would like to respond
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First of all this way Mainly because I just don't have time to write
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Everything that I need to write on this particular subject right now
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With the debates coming up the the Dave Hunt book that said that I'm gonna be working on I now have the rest of mr.
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Hunt's materials and so on so forth and I've just got too much to do before I can possibly sit down and write what
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I'd like to write in response to What mrs. Bonds says in this particular in this particular article
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But I know that now the book is getting out of the bookstores that we're going to be getting emails and phone calls and so I want to respond to what it says and Then we can at least put together a
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URL link With the various programs the three programs we've done
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February 16th August 3rd and now this one and That way we will be able to You know provide the response it's at least for now and then provide a more written response before there is a by the way there is a
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Written article as well on our website on the Roman Catholic section that deals at least with the situation back in February interesting connections as well to The Roman Catholic apologists who interestingly enough in my sister's chapter she talks about how they are so kind and loving and and How they pray for me and everything else and yet?
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we document on our website some of the Emails that have been sent by people like Steve Ray that demonstrate that Well, that's just not the case the facts are very different than then the presentation is made there
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And you know let them speak in their own words when you when you read what they have to say for themselves
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It's pretty amazing stuff so Anyways first things first however as far as deep as far as developments since August 3rd of 2002
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We we did that program while I was in I mentioned this I believe on the August 3rd program while I was in New York I Took the time to Having listened to the
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Catholic answers program to drop into an AOL instant message chat With my sister, and I raised a number of issues in regards to claims
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She had made she was for example promoting a false gospel attacking Paul's doctrine of justification on the basis of James chapter 2
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And things like that and and she was also confused about the thing she was saying she was saying she was a hyper
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Calvinist and she didn't know what hyper Calvinism was and and So on so forth and so I I began again as I have from the beginning to provide factual refutation of the things the errors that she was making and from the beginning
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That that effort has been construed to be mean -spirited and unkind the common response that I get to And and I again
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I have all of our emails. I've kept all of them have full archives and You know if need be could provide numerous examples of all of these things
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But I will say well, you know you said X about early church father
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Why But have you ever read what he said in such -and -such a resource where he contradicts your interpretation of him
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Response why do you rail against the Church of God? Why are you so mean?
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Won't you accept that this is a work of God etc. Etc. Now most people could realize that's not really response to what
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I was saying But that's the kind of response. I've been getting over and over and over and unfortunately in this new chapter
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The accusation has said that's everything that I've you know from the beginning I've been really angry and mean -spirited and all the rest of stuff and Anyone who's read the stuff on the website or has read any of the correspondence as people on both sides have
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Knows that just simply isn't the case well in August Our contact ended
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Completely and I'm the one that ended it and I'll tell you now quite openly the reason
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I did so Because she has published to this stuff in print as she started using legal terms that is
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I I I sensed a threat of legal action against me and I don't have any reason to allow that kind of thing to happen
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I'm not going to expose my ministry or my family to someone who makes those kinds of threats and so I Just cut off all contact and in doing so said
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I will publicly respond to your To your accusations or anything that you say in public, but I'm I'm not going to Continue to have any type of contact with you because of what you're doing and so that has been the case and a few days
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Later someone sent me the the URL to an article on her website, and this is hosted by a fellow by name
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Apollonio and Phil por Vosnick they are the ones that provide the website space for my my sister's website and It's dated
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August 19th a goodbye to my brother and Anyone who wants to track it down can do so It's a letter the vast majority of which is extremely personal and Again, I had avoided that As I said, we didn't to go public the people in the ministry will tell you they had asked me to long before we did
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I said we're not going to and We have been very specific in our responses in Responding to specifically what mrs.
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Bonds has said Especially when she has made claims about the Bible early church history
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Roman Catholic apologetics I haven't gone into all sorts of things that I could have gone into We've chosen to stay with the apologetic issues
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Well, she chose not to and in her letter She talks about things from our childhood and the various and sundry things going in the seeing
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Star Wars and all the rest is fun stuff All of which is very, you know, she mentioned she put she taught me to play chess which she did
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And that then she never beat me again at chess, which is true that at least those those sections are definitely true and So on so forth so Then she mentions going to Christian Emporium buying
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Imperials records those And she has to mention because I know my kids are this way The big black things that came before CDs for you youngins is what she says and that's true
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Kids don't know much about what records were that those wonderful vinyl things that here in Phoenix Anyways, you weren't careful would melt before you got you got them
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Home if you weren't careful, he had to sit them right in the blast of the AC to be able to Get him home actually, but anyways
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All those things are true what that has to do with anything I do not know other than other people who've read it and and have said well, you know, this was her way of Pointing out that she was your bigger sister and she was she's six and a half some odd years older than I am and So then she the last three sentence of the last three paragraphs was the only thing that really having to do other than with history
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And basically saying all right, you know, we're not gonna have any more relationship and Then she says the see
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I still see you running down that road with your hands over your ears Stubbornly not heeding the calls of your mother.
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The word mother is Capitalized she wants only what is best for you She wants your safety and salvation
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But you will not hear her and you dig your heels in the road and stomp away in rejection of her care It is into her prayerful care that I commit you
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James. Now, of course, she's talking about the Virgin Mary and I think we are starting to see in some of these things the fact that Mrs.
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Bonds is going into a very very conservative form Roman Catholicism more conservative. For example, and I see
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Scott Hahn Representing even though she would consider him to be one of the main people that she would be following because the fact that First of all, am
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I not a separated brother? I thought Protestants were now separated brothers I Thought we were heirs of salvation
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She wants your safety and salvation. Do I need salvation? Are we going back to the Council of Florence here?
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Who knows? I don't know but one thing's for certain the view of tradition That she presents in her new chapter is very much the part and part of view
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It's very much the older view not the material sufficiency view But the part and part of view
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I'm not certain that she understands what those distinctions are as yet She continues to study her handlers continue to give her the vocabulary and to deal with certain of these issues
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I don't know where where she's going to end up on this My feeling is that she's could become very involved in Marian stuff and that does tend toward a much more conservative form of Roman Catholicism than a moderate or middle -of -the -road form of Roman Catholicism and so we have this discussion of the
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Virgin Mary and How my sister knows what the Virgin Mary would want to know when is able to know but the
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Virgin Mary has no idea that I exist, of course, and I'm very thankful for that and she does not want my safety and salvation because she doesn't know that I exist and She would be extremely concerned and extremely upset if she thought anybody
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Was entrusting me into her care She knows there's only one person to entrust anyone into their care and that of course is into the hands of the
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Lord Jesus Christ whom she is Completely absorbed in worshipping him now, and she is not thanks be to God aware of the millions of people who have been deceived into thinking that somehow their emotions are connecting them with her and so Anyways, she says to continue our back -and -forth arguments is wrong.
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Well, we haven't had any back -and -forth arguments I've present arguments. She's responded with emotions.
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And again, I'm the one who owns the emails. I'm the one who has the documentation those who have read the
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AOL instant message will tell you all the way through it's well You said
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John Henry, you know to go deep into history is to cease to be Protestant but Explain to me what you think about the fact that John Henry Cardinal Newman had to go back and rewrite
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His own historical works in the subject of honorius once the definition of papal infallibility was given
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Why do you attack me? Why are you so mean? Why are you so angry? Well, but you're the one that brought up John Henry Cardinal Newman And and how can you say to go deep into history and cease to be
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Protestant? When to go deep into history is to recognize that honorius is a glowing example of the refutation of papal infallibility
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Just take off your Protestant glasses and and look openly and you'll see the glory of the church
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You're just so filled with hate. Well, you know, okay, let's try another subject James chapter 2
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What is the the reformed response James chapter 2 since you claim to seem to know you are so angry
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I just wish you weren't so angry and that's just all the way through. That's all it was So there's been no exchange of arguments because you have to present facts and reasoning
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To be able to have arguments so we haven't gone back and forth. I've presented arguments
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She's refused to deal with those arguments. I've presented facts. She's refused to deal with those facts That's that's really been from the very first anonymous email that was sent to me.
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And and again, that was after She had already fallen in love with With Roman Catholicism and in fact now that the whole chronology is in print
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You get a really good idea of the fact that she had Already been in contact with people and there's a couple new things.
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I'll get to in a moment in this new this new chapter and so That's that's just the brief response to this particular and then it says it says it ends goodbye
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Jimmy and She knows that I haven't been called Jimmy in a long time This is meant to be, you know the little kid type thing and I'm your
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I'm your big sister and you just know I'm wise and so on so forth and You know when she says it breaks my heart to know that we have been separated by circumstances.
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Neither of us asked for I'm not the one that changed. I'm not the one who is doing what she's doing and So I don't accept that that idea at all
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She Knew that she could have come to me, but throughout her thing. Well, I knew what he was that.
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No, she doesn't she doesn't know to this day what I would say to the vast majority of things and Has only started looking at my materials now that she is, you know, dedicated to the
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Virgin Mary and about as unbiased as As you know Carville is unbiased on Democratic issues or something along those lines
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She had no idea at the time and of course, that's the problem is that her
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Catholic apologist friends if they're gonna milk this thing for what they can milk it for have to attempt to say that she did know well, she simply doesn't and Didn't and even if she were to learn the future, you know, that's like closing the barn door after the horse has gone out
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So it's really not exactly a relevant issue at that particular point in time. And so that's the response there now the the new chapter
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It's a interesting title freed from anti -catholic bonds and I can guarantee you that came from Pat Madrid Pat Madrid likes doing
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Things with names and puns and things like that and It's one of the longest sections in the book by by a long shot
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And of course, her last name is bonds so freed from anti -catholic bonds, and of course again we have this, you know
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Anti -catholic anti -catholic. I was such an anti -catholic Huh, you know If I converted
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I at least would have a pedigree, you know, I could at least point to something that I did I'll never forget asking
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Jerry Madetik. You know when he was pushing how Anti -catholic he was and it's like so Jerry Uh What books did you write?
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I didn't write any books. Well, what articles do I didn't write any articles? What tracks did you write for handing out to Roman Catholics?
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I didn't write what debased I didn't do any debates So what makes you an anti -catholic?
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I didn't like Catholicism. Well, congratulations That makes every almost every single Roman Catholic that I know an anti Protestant.
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What's that supposed to mean? I mean, what is the what is the relevance here? It's it's the
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I want to be like Paul on the way to Damascus story I was out there to it my best and in fact
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Patty talks about I Repented of promulgating the Reformation. Well, what in the world did she do to promulgate the
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Reformation? It's this this desperate desire To to make it look like you were you're something that you really weren't.
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Okay. She didn't like Catholicism Well, congratulations. I I know lots of folks who the vast majority of folks
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I know that are Protestants and who are not former Roman Catholics don't like Catholicism because of what they've heard about it
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But they've never studied it themselves and the vast majority of Roman Catholics that I know don't like Protestantism But they've never studied for themselves either
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Does that somehow mean something? I've not quite figured out what it means But you know, that's that that's a house anti -catholic anti -catholic as if somehow some great thing has been overcome
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That now now I'm something else. It amazes me the chapter starts off with a letter that was sent out to various of her friends
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And of course there is the quote I have found that to be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant John Henry Cardinal Newman and I already mentioned when
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I when I tried to Raise issues about Newman and Newman's opposition to papal infallibility and Anyone who's read a lot of Newman?
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I enjoy listening to when we're in channel there'll be times that Skyman will post things and he'll point but never did respond to his own early days
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Materials were before he converted His in fact his development hypothesis was probably about the only way he'd get around many of the good arguments
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He presented when he was a Protestant against the Roman Catholic position but I Get absolutely no sense whatsoever
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That mrs. Bonds is aware of any of those things or has spent any time reading anything
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That Newman actually wrote or any of the historical context in which that was particularly found
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So as we continue on here I'm going to start reading some of these sections and basically all
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I've done is I've looked at sections that either require Some sort of response or have something new that was not a part of what came up on The EWTN show or on the
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Catholic answers live or has not shown up on any of the web articles or things like that because those are gonna be
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The things that people are gonna be asking us about and hence I want to provide that type response, but we need to take a break and we'll continue here on the dividing line right after this
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Try to save your soul from death it's all works righteousness, you know
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Can I manufacture grace myself Some religious place while we've been hard on your face
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And welcome back to the dividing line
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We're providing a response to the new chapter. Well, it's a new book I'm not sure it was a new chapter, but chapter and surprised by truth freed from anti -catholic bonds is the topic and Starting I believe this looks like it's
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I've scanned this in so I'm somewhere around page 186 or so We read the next summer my father baptized me at a neighboring church as I had been taught in the
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Baptist Church We attended I viewed my baptism purely as a gesture of obedience That no effect on my salvation eternal life came instead from the act of placing my faith in God after that moment
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I believed I could never lose my salvation no matter what I did. I had received an assurance of salvation It's often called by many
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Protestants a person choosing to be baptized is thus already saved a point many Baptist pastors like to emphasize
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I find that a little bit interesting From the
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Roman Catholic perspective this is when she was justified because this baptism was done in the name of the
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Father Son and Holy Spirit and hadn't ex opera operato the sacramental work of Justification took place at that particular point in time and Then when it said
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I could never lose my salvation my way. I'd received an assurance of salvation As it's often called many
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Protestants at sounds to me Like there are a couple things a number of things in this chapter where I just get the feeling that that the editors in in essence said, you know, we need to explain to our audience because many of the
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Many of the people in our audience don't understand the terminology and so we need to sort of explain
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Protestantism to our primarily Catholic audience and I think this is this is
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Where one of these things takes place a person choosing to baptize thus already saved. Well, yes, that's quite true
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That is what the what the Bible teaches then the next section is called growing up anti -catholic and One of the things that is said is
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I remember my mother explained that Catholics believe they had to work their way into heaven I stopped there for a moment.
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I've met many a Catholic to believe that remember this is this this is back in the 1960s and It's totally unfair to transfer
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The type of Catholicism that was popular in the 50s and 60s And say well
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I know many Roman Catholics who read their Bibles today or something like that as if that says has something to do with what things
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Were like in the 40s 50s and 60s Most of the Roman Catholics that you would have talked to and in fact most
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Roman Catholic nominal Roman Catholics to talk to today Which is still the vast majority of Catholicism Do believe you have to work your way into heaven if you were to ask the vast majority of them
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How do you get into heaven? They would start talking to you about you do this you do this you do this you do this
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They don't read Scott Hahn They they don't they're not reading these these folks who very carefully try to nuance things
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It's it's works next thing that they prayed the statues Yeah, uh -huh
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No, it's ways about just I'm not playing the statue. I'm praying to the one who represents it Hey go down to South Phoenix right now.
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You're gonna find lots of folks praying the statues And you can try to explain that one away all you want doesn't change them that they said the same prayers over and over like pagans
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Well pagans do use repetitious prayers and yep, I still still agree with that She was particularly critical of the
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Pope and the idea that man on earth would claim to be the head of the church Well, I'm particularly critical of the fact that he would claim to be the head of church the vicar of Christ the vicar of Christ, of course is the
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Holy Spirit of God and The Holy Father a term used only of course of God the
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Father by the Lord Jesus Christ himself those are all titles of deity and I Think my mother was particularly right to be critical of the
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Pope and the idea that a man on earth would claim to be the head of the church Now notice this is under the the section.
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This is what defines anti -catholicism in other words If you disagree with Catholicism, you're an anti -catholic
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But see anti -catholic is the great buzzword. It's the it's the word that is meant to immediately invoke images of Jack Chick see
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That's that's the great catch here. She said the Catholics didn't think for themselves. They let the Pope think for them.
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Well sola ecclesia Certainly does end up with that very result and how many people especially back then when you ask them?
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Why do you believe? What you believe well because the priest told me The priest told me to believe that the vast majority of Roman Catholics that my mother ever had contact with were nominal
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Roman Catholics And they didn't think for themselves on religious issues. They let the priest or the Pope tell them what to believe
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There's no question about that They weren't even allowed to read the Bible for themselves. Well again
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Over and over and over again that has been a testimony of many of the Roman Catholics that I know who've left the
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Catholic Church who grew up in the 30s 40s and 50s man they were they were discouraged from ever picking up that Bible because why because it leads to Difficult questions and it certainly does because you start reading about stuff like justification things like that and So we continue on Specifically just just I'm just looking at things that I've marked some going through here
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Catholics I have been taught and had come to believe most definitely did not have the truth and nothing could have convinced me otherwise well
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Okay, but here's the issue All right, she was convinced that Catholics did not have the truth had she ever studied
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Catholicism no No, are there many people who are right that Catholicism is false
35:48
But they don't know why they're right. They're right about something. They just don't know why well, of course
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I mean, I think the vast majority of us are right about the laws of nature gravity and and how light works and things like that, but very few of us know
36:07
Schrodinger's equation or can discuss the mechanics of gravity and and Molecular forces and all the rest that kind of stuff you're right about the conclusion
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But you may not know a whole lot about the process by which that conclusion was derived And so it's one thing to say
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I definitely believe that Catholicism was wrong fine but did was your conclusion a
36:32
Acknowledgeable one and the answer would be no and it would be no for a very simple reason. I mentioned this back in August I recall
36:40
Making a note of this. I asked my own father From whom my sister claims over and over again is the one that she learned all these things about a
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Roman Catholicism And I said, is it a fair statement? That you have learned
36:58
Vastly more about the theology of the Roman Catholic Church from me over the past 10 to 15 years
37:07
Than I could have ever learned from you and he said well, of course He was a graduate of Moody Bible Institute.
37:15
They didn't sit around and define Roman Catholic dogma or read
37:21
Ludwig Ott's works or do anything like that It was indeed assumed at places like Moody back in the 50s that that Roman Catholicism was about as far off base as it could be and again, they were right, but it wasn't an informed rightness and so This conviction that was hers was a conviction based upon what she had been told but it wasn't based upon actual study itself
37:51
No two ways about that. Well a little bit later on there's a fascinating little section
37:57
About how a movement she got into in a local church prepared her for her conversion to Catholicism shades of Catholicism in discipling and It's not overly surprising that I had criticized that very thing long before she converted to Roman Catholicism I Would completely agree with her and in fact had made the statement myself
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And there are people listening right now who can confirm the fact that long before my the the thing blew up And I got the call while I was in Florida that my sister was becoming a
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Catholic I had specifically made the statement that there were elements of this movement.
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She got involved with that were indistinguishable from Roman Catholicism and and That's that's not even a matter of dispute
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So I've been consistent all along at that at that particular point in time But then this is this is something that bothers me the one last paragraphs in that section
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Another thing I was taught through this methodology was that true Christians live lives of obedience and loving service now
39:05
You need to understand this is being contrasted with Protestantism or at least what she was raised with so in other words what she's saying in essence is
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I hadn't been taught that now That's not true That that is certainly not the case obedience and loving service is part and parcel of what is taught within at least meaningful
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Protestant belief reformed Protestant belief anyways belief alone was not evidence of salvation obedience was a mark of a true
39:35
Christian okay, and This would also explain
39:41
I guess why maybe she honestly believes that we don't believe that because she says this was a new concept for me well, you know if she had she calls herself a
39:54
Yeah, I'm sure he did She calls her says she was a hyper Calvinist But evidently had never read the
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Westminster Confession of Faith which if you read the Confession of Faith and the shorter catechism Is it not the catechism itself that?
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The longer and shorter catechism is that in answer to the very issue of the marks of saving faith
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Is the basis of that very famous statement we are saved by faith alone, but saving faith is never alone
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I? Can almost guarantee I could be wrong, but I can almost guarantee
40:29
That Patti Bonds has never read the longer catechism or the shorter catechism from Westminster Probably never read the
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Westminster Confession of Faith and probably never met read the 1689 London Confession and so She wouldn't be aware of that.
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That's why she says this was a new concept for me now. She's put this in print it's now out there and I've said from the beginning certain things and and when what
40:58
I've said would get to her She'd be very angry that I would say things, but now she's Confirming the very things
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I said from the start one thing anyone who's aware of the Materials have gone back and forth and is sort of on the inside knows
41:13
I have said the same things about this from the start from the start
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And that is by the way the mark of truth. It is consistent with itself So when she says this was a new concept for me
41:30
That tells us something it revolutionized my view of salvation. I no longer saw faith alone as the point of salvation
41:37
Well there immediately how many times have we seen this I? mean go back to the very first surprised by truth series and one of the things that I said in my review of Robertson Janice and someone else that's in that of the name escapes me.
41:54
It was a it was a woman These people never knew what they believed And I point out where they make statements that are directly contrary to the very beliefs that they said they once professed
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This obviously Is is clear evidence That she did not understand what sola fide meant and still to this day does not it is instead
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Interpreting what she allegedly once believed as it is reinterpreted by Roman Catholic apologetics
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It goes on it was no longer a matter of mental ascent. Oh Doesn't that those of you who?
42:34
Understand what has been taught within reformed theology all along doesn't that doesn't that just like dragging chalk across a chalkboard
42:42
It was no longer a matter of mental ascent. It was never a matter of mental ascent.
42:48
I mean just Read anything that's a Protestant theology Selfless love of others rejection of sin and following Jesus footsteps in our relationships in our conduct and in our thought as if somehow this is not what you'd find in the
43:03
Institutes or in John Owen or Or anybody else and that's obviously not the case
43:09
But I don't believe that my sister knows who John Owen was or ever read a word that he said and I and and that's
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The people all you're so mean. I'm just stating a fact Those were not the things that were that she spent time looking at That's that's just all there is to it then under the
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The banner my brother makes a name for himself She does mention
43:38
Debates with Tim Staples father Mitch Pack with father Peter Stravinsky's Robertson Janice and even with the editor of this surprised by true series
43:46
Patrick Madrid Notable by their absence Scott Hahn and Carl Keating, but anyways, then we go on even before he had grown prominent
43:56
He grew bald. No, that's my my edition They're sorry even before he had grown prominent.
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I had listened attentively to the post debate conversations James How are their parents at family dinners? I heard from him how this or that Catholic attempted to defend the
44:10
Catholic Church's teaching of the Bible now There's nothing new about that. She's said that before I don't recall these to be honest with you.
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I really don't In fact, I would say my parents have probably only seen maybe
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Three or four or heard three or four the debates I've done and not in person either. I mean I've just been a terrible horrible nasty person.
44:34
I don't get around to getting them tapes And sometimes it's years and years afterwards.
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So I you know, maybe she attended at one point in time a
44:47
Dinner when we had You know My dad's fried chicken and mashed potatoes and he does make the best fried chicken on the planet and the best turkey the turkey got
44:55
My dad's dressing is just to die for Anyways, maybe she did.
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I I have no recollection of it and it certainly could not have been more than Two or three times at the most
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But then note this next paragraph Theologically, I agreed with his arguments against Catholic Church note in the folks. I didn't sit there and recap all of my arguments.
45:19
So I Again, and I questioned that but but I didn't enjoy the intensity and rancor of those debates.
45:25
No, wait a minute. Wait a minute Stop here. I have her explicit statement that she never
45:32
Listened to any of these debates and she addresses that later on she admits she didn't Now in hindsight she tries to make a
45:39
Case on based on that, but she didn't how could she understand the intensity and rancor of the debates?
45:45
I found them to be an occasion for sin for those on both sides. How could you say that? tempers flared easily where Where did tempers flare when
45:56
I debated Mitch Pacwa in San Diego in January of 1991 They didn't
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Uh What what's what she referred to I won't say and I just didn't see that arguing changed hearts
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Well, no one ever said that it did but apologetics can be used by God to both confirm
46:16
Those who are in the faith and to be used in an evangelistic way as well I preferred to spread my anti -catholic beliefs by sharing my version of the gospel of my children my friends and By living my life in love of God in an obedience to him.
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Did you hear that? Let me repeat that I preferred to spread my
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Anti -catholic beliefs by sharing my version of the gospel with my children my friends and by living my life in love of God and obedience to him
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So that's what anti -catholicism is. It's basically anything that isn't Catholic It's just not being
46:51
Catholic. So everybody's anti -catholic, but that's not what anti -catholic communicates to a
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Catholic I find this Equivocation purposeful on the part of Those who are promoting these kinds of materials there is a section later on called drawn by the
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Eucharist Her first encounter with with the mass and I think there is that was specifically intended
47:17
To be a parallel to my own book drawn by the father And I only mentioned that in passing because drawn by the father of course is a biblical phrase and drawn by the
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Eucharist is not But anyways then under Catholic myths go up in smoke
47:33
We read while Brad was rounding up books for me I try to think of another way of getting information I didn't know whom to trust if I went to my extreme
47:41
Calvinist associate pastor extreme Calvinist associate pastor anyone who knows who we're talking about here is laughing hysterically because I Knew what he'd say run repent refuse to listen to those deceivers.
47:59
I knew where my brother stood that is not true All she knew is that I'm opposed to Roman Catholicism and have been for a long time
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She did not know how I would respond to any of the information that she was looking at that time
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That is simply not true at least she had the temerity to state in response to a direct question on Catholic answers live.
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No, I did not talk to my brother about my conversion At least she did that and we can be appreciative for that I knew her my brother stood and I knew
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I wouldn't get unbiased information from him Oh, so she can get unbiased information from Scott Hahn and from Catholics But she can't get unbiased information from me.
48:45
I don't think that's quite the case. But anyways a little bit after that She talks about this particular individual we've talked about him before over in France who was feeding her information
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Talking about the Eucharist and so on and so forth and and here listen this this this paragraph amazes me
49:10
I was shocked by what I was discovering contrary to what I had been taught to believe by my Baptist friends and family Catholics weren't cannibals
49:18
They didn't believe that Jesus was crucified over and over again on the altar The real presence of Christ in the Eucharist was not a medieval innovation
49:24
But a thoroughly apostolic and biblical doctrine handed down from the earliest times Now we've discussed this before you can go listen to the debate with Mitch Pacwa and Robertson Janice on the mass and and there's all sorts of information on this
49:43
But I have attempted to provide information
49:49
To my sister on these issues. I've tried to explain to her the difference between real presence and transubstantiation and All the information that we've discussed in dividing line many times in the past that is so problematic here
50:04
But what amazes me thoroughly apostolic and biblical doctrine handed down from the earliest times
50:10
This here again is is just complete capitulation to the anachronistic
50:16
Reading into the early church fathers of doctrines that they had no concept of the
50:22
I you know I I've I I think I even quoted to her the statement of Galatias Bishop of Rome saying that there is no change in the
50:34
Substance of the supper and These things just are simply dismissed as the the ravings of and that's term
50:44
She has used the ravings of anger at Christ Church So when when you read these things
50:53
Again at this point in time she had absolutely no idea even what those responses were
51:01
Let alone could she come this kind of a meaningful conclusion And then again, she repeats even though I have mentioned over and over again the full refutation of this
51:11
I believe I dealt with this in the February 16th program rather thoroughly But we read I looked up the writings of st.
51:18
Ignatius of Antioch on the internet I will never forget reading his words concerning the Eucharist They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer
51:23
Because they do not confess the Eucharist the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ flesh which suffered For our sins in which the
51:29
Father and his goodness raised up again They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes. I gasped and pushed my chair back from the computer
51:36
I've been robbed and I have pointed out in reality. Yes. She has been robbed
51:42
She's been robbed of the context of Ignatius's statement, which is against the
51:47
Gnostics He's using the reality of the incarnation Against the
51:52
Gnostics and the fact that in the Eucharist we are that is in the Lord's Supper We are reminded of the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ, which is a meaningless thing if he had no flesh and blood but to read into Ignatius the
52:05
Aristotelian categories of accidents and substance is Absolutely reprehensible on any type of historical foundation.
52:14
I have sent that material to her She has never responded to it I'm sure she's forwarded it to all of her friends, but She has probably not gotten a response from them that was over satisfying either overly satisfying
52:29
The normal response is is I'll just take off your Protestant glasses in fact The very next line says it was time to take off the
52:36
Protestant glasses as if she had ever looked at early church history And in reality, she's now looking at early church history through Roman Catholic glasses
52:45
And we've talked about this before the Roman Catholic has to look at history in this way They must because the claims that they make
52:53
It is not the Protestant that has to look at church history and find them to be in agreement with him
52:59
It's the Roman Catholic Church that has made claims about the universal belief of the church It's the
53:05
Roman Catholic that has not just glasses but goggles Pasted upon the face and Can only be removed by the grace of God then it continues on I decide to test the direction
53:17
Which I was heading by reading my brother's work my brother's books against the Catholic Church I knew of no other books with as strong an anti -catholic message as his
53:26
I Reasoned that if he could not refute what I had learned from the Bible in Christian history about the Catholic Church It couldn't be refuted.
53:32
I had recently finished reading his book challenging Catholic teachings on Mary I took two of his other books off the shelf at home began studying them my
53:40
Bible at my side now there at least finally Does I've tried for a long long time
53:46
Patty tell me what books you had read now between the Catholic answers live program and this we now are very we can very clearly see what exactly happened and That is she had read my book on Mary She's never responded to it.
54:00
Of course It's difficult for Roman Catholics to do so the one response that has been written was well was laughable
54:08
It was so lacking in substance and so picky eun and it's in its criticisms So she had read one book on Mary has never responded to it and now and only now and this is
54:20
July. This is Months into the process. She's already gone to mass. She's already has all this emotional connection months into it finally now
54:30
She takes the books down and what books they be they would be the fatal flaw and the
54:35
Roman Catholic controversy How do I know that because when she wrote to me and the email that I wrote back to her and this was when
54:42
I? Did not even know it was her While I was teaching up in San Francisco and Mill Valley at Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary The email that I wrote back to her.
54:52
It was very clear to me Which book she was talking about because I was focusing upon the issue of justification the grace of God And that's what the
54:59
Roman Catholic controversy is all about note something here though. Then we're gonna take a break in The chapter here she does not mention what she
55:08
Initially said to me in the letter. Here's some of the development Here's here's the rewriting of history what she writes to me in the letter is not that I've misrepresented
55:17
Roman Catholicism at all Instead she says that she becomes depressed when she reads my book
55:24
Read read it's quoted right on the website. It's right there in the Roman Catholic section you read it for yourself
55:29
No one's ever even Suggested that it's not accurate in what it says, but she says
55:35
I become a dark cloud of depression comes over me Now she's saying it misrepresents, and we'll read what she says here
55:46
When she concludes rather than turn me away from Catholicism my brother's books only confirmed and deepened my interest in it well
55:52
We'll find out if she has any real basis for saying that well after we take this break here on the dividing line
55:57
We'll be right back A Godly man such a rare today
56:12
So many stars strong and true quickly fall
56:17
Oh And welcome back to dividing line we're providing a response in light of brother camps singing there to the statements made by Patti Patrick Bonds in the new book surprised by truth 3 10 more converts explain the biblical and historical reasons for becoming
56:46
Catholic Unfortunately they haven't come up with anything new that hasn't already been refuted many many times in the past The next paragraph is fascinating.
56:55
I soon saw that James was fighting a caricature of the Catholic Church, and it's an interesting That's not normally
57:02
What these people say? Patrick Madrid did not say for example that I was presenting a caricature
57:09
Of the official teachings of the church regarding lottery and Julia only a few weeks ago
57:15
Mitch Pack was never said that in fact many Roman Catholics have admitted that the strength that we have is
57:23
That we accurately represent What the Roman Catholic Church or the
57:28
Mormon Church or the Watchtower Society says? That is the hallmark of our work
57:35
She says his arguments attacked a misinterpretation of Catholic teaching. He did a great job destroying teachings
57:40
He wrongly ascribed to the Catholic Church, but his anti Catholic rhetoric left the real teachings of the church unscathed
57:47
Now remember this is being written Post fact shall we say none of this came out in the letter that was written to me of course his characterization of the
57:57
Eucharist as repeated sacrifice of Christ demonstrate his ignorance of Catholic doctrine and an earthbound view of heavenly reality now that again
58:06
I Guess the idea is The people who are gonna read this book are never gonna be going to my website
58:14
Anyways, the people are reading this book are not gonna be reading my book Anyways, in fact, I guess the hope is that if they ever were
58:21
Tempted to read my books now, they won't because if they do they're gonna discover That's not what I said that not only did
58:27
I accurately represent Not only did I specifically raise the issue that Roman Catholicism does not say it's a repeated sacrifice
58:35
It is a representation of one sacrifice Anyone who's heard my presentations in the subject knows that what
58:42
I focus on is The fact that it cannot be the same sacrifice of Christ Because it does not have the effect of the sacrifice of Christ Now only one of two possible things is true here.
58:56
Either my sister is dishonestly doing this Actually one of three things she's dishonest
59:02
She remains ignorant of what I actually do teach because she's never listened to it or third this is an editorial thing and she either didn't catch it or didn't have the
59:17
Wherewithal to to question it or just thought well they've changed this and therefore it's okay
59:22
They understand it better than I do, you know I don't know what the reasons would be but those are the three only three possibilities because anyone go back to 1991
59:30
January of 1991 in my debate with Mitchell Pacwa on this subject I have been
59:36
Consistent for at least 11 years here on this particular subject
59:41
And in fact all the way back to the fatal flaw 1989. So that's that that gives me 13 years.
59:47
So What can I say this is it's wrong You cannot repeat a sacrifice that exists perpetually in the eternal present of heaven
59:56
And then this then Hebrews 10 10 is cited the problem is Hebrews 10 10 says that that sacrifice perfects those for whom it's made and the very substance of the
01:00:08
Roman Catholic teaching is that it perfects no one and This has been the the tremendous
01:00:16
Frustration in this situation is that when I say these things the only response
01:00:21
I get is either it's completely ignored I mean I have entire emails that I've sent that have been filled with things and and I don't send 40 page long emails or something as if as she has
01:00:33
Indicated on the Catholic answers live thing But I will send an email and I will address this subject and I'll address it fully and when
01:00:39
I get back Well, it's like I never said a word It's like it's not even there was it's not dealt with not heard or if it is dealt with the response is oh
01:00:48
You're just so mean -spirited. I just can't believe that you're railing against Christ Church And that's not a response either.
01:00:55
So immediately very first example given no dealing with what
01:01:00
I actually said whatsoever and again I just say to anybody here's the information
01:01:06
Here's the debates I did. Here's the books. She says that she's reading read them yourself And that's why
01:01:12
I say these books must not be intended for any of us Then must not be intended for anyone ever listens this program
01:01:18
They must just be intended to confirm Catholics and to keep them from being exposed to arguments that evidently they don't really have any answers to anyways
01:01:26
He called the sacrifice the mass a denigration of the finished work of the cross of Christ in the cross
01:01:31
Amen to that showing his failure to see it the sacrifice the mass is Christ finished work applied to our lives within the earthbound limits of time failure no my rejection of that in light of the
01:01:46
Argumentation presented in the book that the sacrifice of Christ Accomplishes certain things that is a perfection of those from its made that the mass does not therefore cannot be the same sacrifice
01:01:58
Although examples of temporal punishment for sin fill scripture. He denies the existence of purgatory
01:02:06
Okay, there is a big leap How about anything about? Purgatory how about any of the arguments
01:02:14
I present again from the atonement about purgatory about the nature of sin any of those things
01:02:19
Nothing's mentioned. She mentions the debate against father Stravinsky's can anyone honestly say that father
01:02:25
Stravinsky's won that debate on purgatory? Robertson Jenna said he didn't win that debate on purgatory. I he isn't exactly unbiased, right?
01:02:33
his arguments against the communion of saints and devotion to Mary demonstrate a Superficial understanding of the biblical evidence is that why
01:02:41
Patrick Madrid the editor of this book gave superficial responses to the biblical evidence of Lotria and Julian the debate only a few months ago as Well the
01:02:50
Catholic teaching that in the mystical body of Christ each of us is called to intercede on behalf of others Well, I'm well aware of that.
01:02:56
The point is what's the nature of that intercession? Again, everything that I have addressed in these issues ignored
01:03:06
Ignored and this is the first time these assertions have made they were not made at this point in time in her conversion story
01:03:11
Or anything else and hence this final line rather than turn me away from Catholicism My brother's books only confirmed and deepened my interest in it.
01:03:19
I think we can all tell that's that We've heard that one so many times, you know It's like when you talk to more missionaries and I talked to a couple more missionaries for about 45 minutes an hour today came by my house,
01:03:29
I don't know if they're gonna come by my house again, but We had a very nice conversation
01:03:35
I spoke ninety nine point nine percent of time though and You know present them a number of things that they had no response to but very very frequently you talk to more missionaries
01:03:45
And you present them stuff over no Section a for the Doctrine and Covenants notice he says this and yet this hadn't happened and you give all these facts and you can just Tell this person has no answer at all
01:03:59
And yet what will they say to you when they walk away and you can tell their their emotions are all riled up They'll look at you and say well,
01:04:08
I just want you to know that you've strengthened my testimony in the church and Every single time someone does that and I can tell you a lot of folks who've gone out witnessing with us
01:04:19
And they'll all tell you the exact same thing. They've all seen it. They've all heard it You Immediately know that that person is responding with nothing but emotion at that point.
01:04:32
There's no truth value Whatsoever to that particular statement now one thing that I did not know
01:04:39
One thing I this is new I hadn't maybe it was in the EWTN thing I don't think that it was because this would have caught my attention before She talks about Her first contact with the
01:04:51
Hans and it's under the Hans lend a hand and We read
01:04:57
I took a long shot and called the Hans the young lady who answered said Kimberly was busy with the baby and Scott Was away
01:05:02
I left my name and number and lay face down my bed praying with all my heart that she'd call me back minutes later the phone rang it was
01:05:07
Kimberly I Asked whether she had ever heard of James White she had
01:05:13
Then I told her I was his sister. I could hear a soft gasp on the other end of the line
01:05:19
Looking back. I can imagine her thinking that here She was alone with the kids late in the evening probably tired and she had
01:05:26
James White's sister on the phone I imagine she shot up a prayer for help Now, why do
01:05:32
I find that interesting that had never been mentioned before? Never had it been mentioned that the first thing she says is
01:05:41
She mentions that she's my sister. I find that interesting because it explains a lot of what happens after that It explains a lot of the effort put into Answering her questions and keeping her going down the road shall we say that hadn't appeared in anything else that I had seen
01:06:03
And I find it very very significant Then let's see here just a little bit farther on just a couple other things.
01:06:13
I'm watching the time here, and we're I'm waxing Well most people say verbose under God gives me signs of his preparation part of that joy also includes an awareness of how
01:06:25
God had been preparing me in advance to embrace Catholic teaching as He had helped me see past sola fide that we are justified by faith alone
01:06:33
God had led me to understand purgatory for the most part before I ever recognized
01:06:39
God's called the Catholic faith That's something I had not seen in print before that was that's a new element to this that Here we have she in essence seemingly is saying that This counseling she had received in her mind
01:07:02
Refuted sola fide now. We've already seen she never understood sola fide in the first place
01:07:07
But notice how God had led me to understand purgatory for the most part before I ever recognized God's called the
01:07:13
Catholic faith I'm not sure that she still really has
01:07:20
An understanding of what purgatory in the historical sense is most of what she has has been has been sort of modified for Politically correct
01:07:32
Western thinking it's not the historical doctrine all the time, but anyways I found that to be very very interesting
01:07:40
Time goes by so I continue on I Track down every Catholic teaching that scandalized my
01:07:45
Protestant mind and over and over again. I found them clearly present in the pre Constantine church writings the catechism that Brad had bought me and that had defended me when
01:07:56
I started reading it now read for me like a modern language version of early church writings now I Again, I have to sort of sit back and go now come on How much really of the early church are we talking about here early church writings we're talking about or are these not primarily
01:08:16
Secondary sources I mean One of the things that we talked about was
01:08:23
Mary you find in pre Constantine church writings The concept of Mary's bodily assumption or something like that I don't think so I had once attended an organizational meeting that my brother held when he was assembling his work on the
01:08:38
King James only controversy I remember his emphasizing how careful the scriptures had been preserved What he overlooked was that those who had been so meticulous in preserving the scriptures the
01:08:48
Catholics had been equally meticulous in preserving oral Traditions they were one the same truth to read about polycarps repeating from memory the things
01:08:56
Christ had done the teachings the Apostles was a perfect example of how meticulous of the early -church guarded quote or capitalized sacred tradition now again,
01:09:06
I think that David King and Bill Webster did a tremendous job in absolutely shredding this entire argument in their three -volume work on Holy Scripture, which
01:09:18
I know that my sister's never seen and has not ever never dealt with and most of the people that are
01:09:24
Coaching her could not deal with it. Even if they tried to I will always remember Patrick Madrid boasting in 1993
01:09:31
He could bury me under 53 pages of citations from the early church again so again solo scriptura, and of course volume 3 of Holy Scripture is 312 pages long so I guess that means we win.
01:09:46
Yeah, you just count up the number of pages as if that's somehow relevant but anyways The difference in the prison the difference in the transmission of The text of Scripture and the issue of tradition is absolutely positively amazing
01:10:06
I doubt that she's aware of for example the first recorded instance of Tradition the very claim of something being passed down from the
01:10:15
Apostles, but it's something she would reject. It's in Irenaeus it's about the age of Jesus and If oral traditions could be corrupted that quickly
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Then how can she trust anything else is passed down in only that way? That makes absolutely no sense at all.
01:10:32
But again, I can't get her to deal with these things. She's blocked all my email addresses and When I did try to raise these issues in the past, the only response
01:10:40
I get is you're so angry. You're so angry You're so you know and the idea being you have to accept this as being true or I'm gonna say you're angry and that's that's all there is to it, but the fact the matter is the
01:10:52
Transmission of Scripture is fundamentally different in the written form than in any type of oral traditions, but it's interesting
01:10:58
She's using capital S capital T sacred tradition for very early stuff here
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It seems to me that she's adopted as I said earlier the partum partum view that all of these beliefs
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Were passed down. I mean just just after this the early Christians had received listen to this the faith in Total as the apostolic tradition and we're guarding it for all time.
01:11:22
St. Irenaeus had no compulsion to write down What he heard from st. Polycarp. He hid the Word of God in his heart So traditions the
01:11:28
Word of God and the faith in total That's part and part of folks and that means that if she's gonna take that position
01:11:34
Then it's perfectly proper for us to say. Okay, you show us where these individuals presented the concept of The bodily assumption and the immaculate conception and purgatory and the papal infallibility and all these things because you say it had been given in total
01:11:54
Apostolic tradition at the time of the Apostles that means you can trace it and you see Newman the very one she quotes in at the beginning knew you couldn't do that.
01:12:03
That's why she had that's why Newman had to develop the concept of Development the way that he did is he knew he could not follow that kind of argumentation as Result of this she says at this point.
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I finally developed complete confidence in the teaching authority of the church That is I embraced sola ecclesia.
01:12:23
Whatever the church tells me to believe that's what I'll believe I trusted those precious saints of God down through the ages who had guard the truth and plumbed its depths to explain the mysteries of God for future generations
01:12:33
Oh glorious reality that there is in this world an ultimate authority to which Jesus delivered the truth and which has guarded that truth according to his promise yes, that's called the
01:12:41
Bible and It is not of course the Roman Catholic Church, and I really have to wonder what's gonna happen if the next
01:12:50
Pope is not as conservative as John Paul the second and for example the attitudes of the
01:12:58
The bishops expressed in regards to the Jews becomes the official dogmatic position. What happens then to the practitioner of sola?
01:13:07
Ecclesia well it is it is very difficult to know difficult to know indeed
01:13:13
Then later on we have down here toward the beginning Toward the end my parents informed
01:13:19
James my decision. This is after their she Informed my parents not she wanted to but anyways my parents informed
01:13:26
James my decision to convert to Catholic Church about a week letter I received from him the first in a string of Scathing letters containing theological rebuttals and even some personal attacks scathing letters
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I have all these she's destroyed them. I have all of them. I would be glad to show them to anyone and you will find that to describe them as scathing letters is either dishonest or it demonstrates that for Patti Patrick Bonds a
01:13:51
Scathing letter is a letter that says you are wrong and here is The information here is the documentation here are the facts that's what it means to to scathe someone is to tell them the truth and To say no your personal experience does not validate
01:14:09
What you're doing? Since my conversion I've done my best to respond to some of his accusations and arguments
01:14:15
But their sheer numbers and his antagonistic tone have wearied me to the point that I now simply ignore them
01:14:21
I'm convinced that only God's saving grace and merciful love can quench the anger that fuels some Protestants hatred of the church
01:14:28
You see my sister has to lie to herself. She has to say oh, it's it's hatred.
01:14:33
It's hatred No, it's love for the truth That's all it is and she knows that she has not responded to my accusations and arguments and That there haven't been sheer numbers and that there wasn't an antagonistic tone again
01:14:51
She simply interprets any kind of challenge that would cause her to have to look at the facts in a truthful fashion as Being mean -spirited
01:15:01
She doesn't simply ignore them. She has blocked all means of communication with her That's something very different than simply ignoring them
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God's saving grace and merciful love never quenches truth and Hence to hope that it somehow is going to change something well
01:15:22
She added a little section Again, it's aimed at me nothing warm and fuzzy about it It says
01:15:27
I've received many reactions from Protestants to my conversion one that makes me chuckle is the claim that I am simply a victim of emotionalism
01:15:33
Well, I'd invite you to read this at one point She even presents as evidence that the Saints were praying for her
01:15:39
The fact that she shows Patrick as her patron saint and then looked up at a stoplight and she was at Patrick Street If that's not emotionalism and subjectivity,
01:15:48
I don't know what is I mean How do you argue against stuff like that?
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That I became Catholic because it made me feel warm and fuzzy or some silly notion like that Had I intellectually understood the biblical issues the claim goes
01:16:01
I never would have been so foolish as to embrace the unbiblical gospel of Rome The misguided people have told me this have no idea how
01:16:07
I agonized over my decision to become Catholic fear and loneliness were the predominant Emotions that characterized my months of biblical study scrutiny of church history and prayerful discernment, which
01:16:15
I note did not involve Contacting anyone who could provide any kind of fair response to Rome's materials
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That does not make it discernment scrutiny or real study I continue these are hardly emotions that would entice someone to choose the
01:16:31
Catholic Church in fact I struggled against my emotions Which are telling me to not become Catholic because the upheaval and pain it would cause my life
01:16:38
So that I could objectively weigh the evidence for Catholicism first of all She has not objectively weighed the evidence for Catholicism the facts very clearly indicate that that is a self -deceptive statement
01:16:48
She has not done so and I can prove that beyond any shadow of a doubt But beyond this this is not the first time that she has embraced a perspective that would cause upheaval and pain in her life in Fact this very thing that she had talked about earlier this methodology had already done that So none of this
01:17:09
Rings of any truth whatsoever. Well, let me since our time is about out. Let me go down to the last little thing
01:17:17
This was added in very obviously right after the AOL instant message that we had where I challenged what she had said on Catholic answers live and I did so factually and I pressed her and She could not
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I asked direct questions that would actually require you to have knowledge to answer them and she could not do so and she
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Became very emotional because she knew exactly what's going on here she knew that I was exposing the fact that what she had said in a national audience was untrue and That she cannot back it up and that she was just simply repeating what had been told her by others
01:17:49
And so here's what she writes even as I write these words furious opposition from my brother continues
01:17:55
That furious opposition is asking direct questions. One of his main accusations has been that before becoming
01:18:00
Catholic I didn't listen to tapes of his debates. Therefore. I wasn't really informed about the problems with Catholicism quite true
01:18:06
My response is that I was well aware of his positions and arguments against Rome partly because I had studied his written material
01:18:11
But mainly because I grew up in that same milieu I was raised to believe in the same doctrines and have the same attitudes towards Rome that he did and I respond that is
01:18:20
Untrue she had not read my books. She already admitted that seemingly doesn't even realize she's contradicting herself
01:18:27
She admits that she only started reading two of those books after Being in contact with all these people after having gone to mass and all the rest of these things.
01:18:36
So a that's not true B and she doesn't tell the real story here. That is what she told me is she couldn't listen to him because I was so mean
01:18:45
Well, how could she know she never listened to them? Evidently someone pointed out to her that was a self refuting assertion.
01:18:51
So she stopped saying it but Secondly when she says I grew up in that same milieu as my father has said
01:18:58
He's learned far more about Roman Catholicism for me than I ever learned from him Therefore this entire argument which is absolutely central to the
01:19:07
Roman apologists use of her story collapses without foundation Nonetheless and here's here's here's the the last little swipe nonetheless
01:19:18
I decide that I should take up his challenge of listening to his debates against Catholics I have to admit now that I regret that I didn't listen to them sooner had
01:19:26
I heard these debates There's no doubt that I would have converted to the Catholic Church years earlier
01:19:33
Again it's the it's the Mormon missionary. I you've strengthened my testimony. She doesn't mention any of these
01:19:39
Are we talking about maybe the debates with them? Are we talking about the debate with Jerry Medetic the Patrick Madrid said
01:19:45
I won Are we talking about the debate with Robertson genus on the mass that other people said it?
01:19:52
How about the the debate with Stravinsky's that's in genus that I won How about the debates with Mitch Pack with a Scott Butler said
01:19:57
I won which which ones was she listening to? That would have caused her to convert to the
01:20:03
Catholic Church years earlier and how does that fit with her statement that she couldn't listen to them because She found me to be so mean spirited and that I would intimidate her
01:20:14
Catholic brothers. That was the first thing she said You see there has never been any objectivity She says
01:20:19
I challenge you who are outside of the Catholic Church take off your Protestant glasses. Well Patti I Don't know all the reasons, but you have placed in front of your eyes a prism that blocks the truth of the
01:20:33
Bible the truth of church history from your eyes Stop deceiving yourself you have not objectively looked at anything
01:20:41
If you would do so you would discover very quickly That the very shallow answers that have been given to you cannot stand scrutiny
01:20:51
There are other reasons involved here Well, it's in print now It's interesting to read
01:20:59
But those who have access to the other side Listen to these programs look at the article
01:21:06
Have to just shake their head in amazement That this is the kind of material that the
01:21:13
Roman Catholic Church allegedly The mother of all churches the Church of Christ is producing to try to defend her claims
01:21:22
There's a reason Why this kind of material is being used because it doesn't deal with truth
01:21:30
You see those who write it would be surprised by truth these folks have been surprised by emotions
01:21:36
They've been surprised by deception they've been surprised by many things, but they have not been surprised by truth because they haven't encountered it and those of us who know the truth need to pray for them need to learn how to use the
01:21:48
Word of God to speak to Them and and sometimes because they're close to you in family relationships. You aren't the one who's could get to do that I pray that there's someone out there who won't have the emotional attachments that my sister and I have
01:22:01
Maybe they will be able to share the things that I've tried to share with her. Maybe that'll work.
01:22:06
I don't know I leave it to the grace of God But we have spoken the truth. We've testified of the truth and we thank you for listening to dividing line today.
01:22:14
God bless We need
01:22:48
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