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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James White And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line last dividing line before the the big week in Seattle sort of Canada Places like that and I have been looking at the weather forecast those of you coming up Ponchos and sweaters would be the waterproof kind of ponchos or waterproof sweaters,

I suppose that's uh, I haven't really seen that kind of sweater cuz That's unusual

But anyway That is for those of you who are getting off the ship going outside the ship things like that for those of us who don't

Do that. It's not really a big deal except for the few times you do wander outside under underneath something

It looks like it's gonna be yeah, I hear it too. It's sort of a Like maybe it's it's for the it's it's the water the water going by the ship

Maybe we're just sort of I maybe do I need do I need to adjust this again? Maybe?

Pot it up. See what we've got there Yeah, no We'll find out anyways for those of you hearing up don't worry about it's it's us but I've always said this connection.

It's either the computer or the connection is just a little bit on the hokey side but anyway, I'm gonna be playing some things today for you and Gonna actually start off backwards from what

I was gonna do Just an announcement again next week no dividing lines a little bit difficult to do from at sea and there wouldn't be anybody here to Run it anyways, so I don't think

Z could do it. So and he's not gonna be here anyways, so we're sort of stuck there but No dividing lines next week, obviously

Lord willing the Tuesday following Which would be what?

20 21st, I think somewhere around there. I will be giving a report 23rd be giving a report on the debate and Lord willing it will be a good report looking forward to seeing all of you up there.

I just got word today. That's a Friend of mine that actually I've never met.

I've there's I've got two Well, actually a couple but two

Specifically Marine Corps colonels that I've been in contact with for a number of years. I've met one of the two we went out shooting together once and The other and I have not had the opportunity meeting is actually just by God's providence going to be up in Seattle over that week over this weekend that coming weekend and gonna be able to be at the debate

So I'm looking forward to to meeting him as well. So everybody In that area, please if if you want to I've mentioned it before I'll mention it again

You can watch a DVD of a debate and that's a good way of doing things. You can listen to the mp3s

That's a good way of doing things. But if you've got the opportunity to be there, it's just something you don't forget down the road

Now some people make it more memorable by turning off the lights during the middle of the debate

You know things like that, but you don't need to do that. You can just come and enjoy the debate and I Just ruined somebody's pizza.

But anyway Join us for the debate Friday night, October 19th SeaTac Marriott 7 o 'clock

I'll be debating Shabir Ali on the subject of the crucifixion and we were going to get back to some of Shabir Ali's Objections to the crucifixion before the end of the hour but first as I've mentioned

James Swan is Going to be I love the lag that we have in the

IRC channel. Mm -hmm. Some people are just now responding

Some some time snobs are just now responding. Maybe that's what the lag is, you know, East Coast stuff, you know, but a a poor

Yeah, I will text you during this program. Go ahead. My phone's not in the studio today so I can make a difference but You enjoy that pizza there red, especially after your

Cubs did so well against the Diamondbacks. But anyway Sorry about that We are going to What in the world are you doing down there

Rich? Oh, you got a broom out Rich is very rich is sweeping out the did you find some

Cubs on the floor there rich? No, they're gone yes That's great anyway, we really shouldn't be doing that James Swan has been sending me

Clips he's been listening to Catholic answers live and So he's been sending me clips and he sent me some clips from our our good buddy

Tim Staples You know, I still wish I had I need to track them down some some of these specific clips from Tim Staples Let me just look here just for a second.

I might still have these some place Hey, are we we got this up I I have no idea what this is gonna be

I'm gonna play it in channel and let's see what comes out this Oh Drat I thought there used to be a sound file

Well here Timothy Staples said in his tape series infallibility versus impeccability from st. Joseph communications tape one

Second side quote you do have some Protestants who tend toward that sort of schizophrenic understanding of the human person

You know, it's not me that sins It's my body if you have ever heard of the hyper Calvinist movement or the one saved always saved people that will say

Oh, I'm saved my body over there just messes up, but I'm fine laughs You know, that's not biblical folks.

There's no biblical thing for that. It's a misinterpretation of Romans chapter 7, but that's another story

Love that there's no biblical thing for that. That's that was the quotation I thought I had the quote maybe

I didn't I never did but anyway good old Tim Staples whenever he addresses this subject, it's it's quite

Quite interesting and so we have a little clip here where he is addressing the issue of once saved always saved now

It would be nice if some of these folks now, of course Tim Staples background wouldn't allow him to do this But even those who were former

Protestants who would have a sufficient background to make the distinction the distinction Between the perseverance of the

Saints and a a God -centered view of the perseverance of the Saints versus the antinomian

Wilkins Hodges mishmash of Fault stuff where it's get to take a punch go to heaven doesn't matter

God isn't doing anything in you anyways, and doesn't really matter if he you know, there's any sanctification stuff like that It would be nice if they'd make that kind of differentiation, but you just can't expect them to do that, unfortunately

But in in all of these situations what you see is the massive difference

Between man -centered theology and God -centered theology remember we were going through the Steve Gregg stuff

We we kept commenting on as you would look at text description at least he was looking at the text of scriptures may have come

Up with some really bad interpretations of Acts 13 48 and stuff like that, but at least he was looking at the text

It's better than most people do but we kept coming back to the the point whether you are whether you believe salvation is the work of God and hence it is centered upon him and his glory and his accomplishment or whether it is basically the work of man and therefore centered upon his activities and Depending on what your mindset is at that point you will hear texts like he who perseveres to the end shall be saved and if you are a man -centered theologian then what you're going to hear there is a

Prescription here is the prescription for how it is to become saved you do so by persevering to the end

That becomes part of the mechanism, and I noticed on James Swan's blog today.

It wasn't him I think it was one of those he's now has a team blog himself. I believe it was Carrie Had put together a whole list out of the

Catholic Catechism of things that are said to be necessary for salvation and It's pretty long list when you start reading it and when you've got that kind of a mindset then you you focus upon that kind of thing and you you

See that text and you go ah see this is one of the things that I need to do to become saved so That's the man -centered

Perspective, but if you see the gospel if you take a much larger view And you see that what

God is doing is is he is glorifying himself that he has a purpose that he is pursuing And he is doing so to his own glory and it's not this idea of a

God who's just trying and trying and he's constantly frustrated and and you know that the great butler in the sky who just wound this mess up and and Now it's it's just completely out of control

And he's just doing the best he can to put it all back together again if you don't take that view and you take the view that God is glorifying himself, and he has control over his universe and In fact he had a purpose when he created and he's continuing to pursue that purpose and to accomplish that purpose even in it with perfection

You take that view and you hear a text like he who endures the end shall be saved And you don't go ah see my endurance is what could save me you see these texts as descriptive not prescriptive

They're not giving a prescription. They're giving you a description Because it's not man who's gonna save himself.

It is the fact that if man is truly saved by God He's going to persevere There's going to be that work of the

Holy Spirit of God within him that faith that has been given to him as a divine Faith and it's not going to fail and that's why when you see apostasy

There is no basis for a believer To look at that person go

I Me myself I am better than that person now from the anthropocentric man -centered viewpoint

Yeah, everybody can say that you see an apostate and go. Oh well. I lasted a lot longer that person

I'm a whole lot better off than them. I'm better than they are because you're looking to yourself there's been something about you that makes you better than that other person and So Man -centered view or God -centered view well obviously

Rome can't have much of a man -centered view because Rome has to make room for her Sacramental system to keep her people in line and keep her people under her control so let's listen to this this caller who calls about the heresy the false teaching of One saved always saved my question is on the false doctrine of once saved always saved

Yes, I have a two -part question. I was just wondering Where did that doctrine come from and when did it first start getting circulated and whenever I?

engage Protestants that believe in this doctrine one of the things they say is

That the blood of Jesus covers them so right and I guess their sins don't count anymore

When they go to heaven you know they're not God's not going to see their sins. They're gonna see Jesus's blood

I was wondering how do I would respond to that right well you're you're right to answer the first question first it

Basically the teaching began with with John Calvin because remember Martin Luther did not agree with him on that point

Luther taught that you could lose your your salvation even though He said whether you lose it or not does not depend upon Your moral actions it depends upon your your fidu your faith

You know whether whether you believe or not so the only way you could lose your salvation is to not believe in Christ anymore

But he did believe that it was possible to lose your salvation. It was John Calvin that Sort of he's the the father of that Teaching I use the word father in Parentheses here of that teaching of once saved always saved

Let me just break in for just a moment there and just point out that again if you were giving a meaningful overview

You would probably have to say now of course Augustine likewise said the elect can never fall away

And that he grounded that in the very same foundation that Calvin did But the the difference being that Augustine allowed for this idea of of Non -elect

Christians and that goes back to the contradictions theology that came about from the two major conflicts in his life that is the

Donatist controversy in the plaguing controversy, and we've talked about all that stuff in the past, but And it was the fifth part of what came to be known as the tulip the five points of Calvinism The the fifth point me being the perseverance of the

Saints and the idea is that if you are truly saved Well, then you never will fall away

You you are kept as Calvin said in the perseverance of the Saints the Holy Spirit keeps you

Of course if we wanted to really describe this then he would be pointing out that Obviously the

Calvinistic system is focused upon God's glorification of himself in the salvation of a specific people called the elect

Through a perfect perpetuatory work on the part of Jesus Christ in their behalf And that is why they cannot be lost is because God doesn't mess up in self -glorification to the day of redemption using verses like Ephesians 430

The Holy Spirit has sealed you unto the day of redemption Yes, but before that Ephesians 1 which speaks of the

Holy Spirit is the Arabon the down payment by which we are sealed Under the day of redemption and that as the result of all that came before that which includes of course the eternal purpose of God The selection of an of a specific people the fact that is we who are chosen in Christ is not

Christ And we're chosen in him We are chosen We are the direct object of that term to choose and we are chosen in Christ never separate from but only in him the only one way of salvation that all flows down into that purpose, but You can't expect someone who came out of the

Assemblies of God to really Focus upon those particular aspects because that's not the normative theology for AG churches

We'd use verses like that to say or or John chapter 10 where Jesus says no one can snatch you out of my hand

And no one can snatch you out of the Father's hand. No well of course the problem with that is

Is that yes, we are sealed unto well? Let me just stop right there for a moment the the John 10

Text and we are going to be looking at John 10 in regards to the atonement on the on the ship The John 10 text is within the context of Gia speaking about being the

Good Shepherd Who lays down his life for the sheep and in the same context he says to the

Jews you are not of my sheep and one? of the constant refrains a Roman theology in the

Catholic Catechism it comes up over and over again is the emphasis upon a universalism

In the work of Christ, and they they have to do that because they're parceling out that work of Christ to the sacramental system

So it can never be perfective in of itself it has to be Described as perfect, but then you have to go, but it's only theoretically perfect It's not personally perfect because then there has to be this sacramentalism

Which is now coming in right here the day of redemption, but what is that sealing talking about well?

It's talking about the Holy Spirit sealing us unto the day of redemption, which we know to occur in Baptism and confirmation we really is that when we know that to occur

I I I wonder where we get that in Scripture Actually that ceiling in Ephesians 1

I looked around for the word Confirmation there someplace can't can't find anywhere and obviously that that ceiling is actually the work of the

Spirit Regeneration as result of of course the the decree of the Father in the work of the

Son It's a triune majesty in bringing about the the gospel and redemption, but here you here you have the sacramentalism coming in receipt

We receive Seals that will be with us for all eternity, but that doesn't mean that those gifts are going to be fruitful in our lives unto salvation now remember

Here it is here is the difference between man -centered and God -centered here are these seals see and These seals may not be fruitful even though as far as we can tell

It is the intention of God in all of the biblical text

I remember we've already Abandoned the biblical text this point because he has already brought in unbiblical things like confirmation

Which you're not gonna find anybody talking about and of course even the early church the concept of the sacraments and especially the seven sacraments didn't develop for quite some time so but still

These have been brought in and so now you have Seals that may not be fruitful for salvation so remember.

I remember one of the Points at time there been a number of points in time I debate with Roberts and Janice where people have gasped from the audience the one was when he talked about the the pot the heretical

Popes There are a number of Catholics in the audience. They're like hey wait a minute

I thought he was on our side. You know and Then during the justification debate

I don't remember if it was during the debate itself or in the audience questions thereafter But he made the very clear statement that there are going to be sons of God those bearing the very seals of Salvation who are going to be in hell so the sons of God are going to be in hell and There are

Protestants who hold that view as well there are Protestants who would You know the federal vision perspective would definitely you know when you listen to Doug Wilson saying hey

How do you evangelize Roman Catholics you grab them by their baptism in other words? They've received that seal and now you try to get that to become fruitful and and basically by saying they've been unfaithful to a covenant to which they have been committed by Trinitarian baptism and So there are a number of folks who would go well

He's got a point there you know and and I just simply go well the problem is if we actually take this to Scripture That sealing in Ephesians is not a hoped -for thing

It is the work of the Holy Spirit, and it is only in the lives the regenerate and you can't mix the two

There are things we have to do Namely be obedient unto death as as Jesus said in Revelation 2 10 be faithful unto death

See there did I not say beforehand? When you hear something about being faithful unto death persevering to the end if you're man -centered that becomes prescriptive

It you add it to the list if you're God -centered. It is descriptive It is descriptive of what the

Holy Spirit of God accomplishes in the lives of His elect people all to his glory, and I will give you the crown of life or as Paul puts it in Romans 6 16

He says no you not me speaking to Christians No You're not that whosoever you yield yourself servants to obey his servants you are whether it be sin which leads to death or obedience which leads to Justification so you know we see and again a lot of people have struggled with with Paul's language there but again here the here the

Immediate Roman Catholic concept coming in here you you jump into Romans And you skip past all the total depravity stuff and you skip past the the inabilities of man you skip past the justification and the the imputation of righteousness of Christ and peace we have having been

Justified and then you jump into Romans 6 where you're talking specifically about Christians and living the

Christian life And what do you do you just go oh? Well at least death that must mean that you can be alive and then die and then be alive and then die and to be

Alive and then die because of course in Roman Catholic theology. It's not just be alive die you're gone It's not the

Hebrew six thing because in their perspective you can have the grace of justification Lose the grace justifications of the commission of mortal sin be rejustified the the sacrament of penance confession the forgiveness of the eternal punishment of sin

Then you've got the temporal punishment of sin that has to be forgiven through The penances and so on so forth and that adds up on your soul

That's why you go to purgatory And then you can blow it again And you can lose it and gain it and lose and gain your friend of God son of God enemy of God not a child of God back and forth back and forth

Repeatedly many times in your life the Bible teaches plainly that we must continue to obey

We must endure until the end Matthew 10 22 or Christ can't save us or in fact

Christ Can't save anybody without that synergistic cooperation and that's where you have to draw the line today and Obviously if you draw the line biblically and clearly man

There's a lot of folks who do not bow the knee to the Pope on the other side of that line these days They're really really it's really the case and people on that side line

Hey, they have a hard time arguing with Roman Catholics Especially when they discover that on the nature of grace and nature of man

They actually agree with with the Pope right Jesus said you will be hated of all men for my name's sake

But he that endures till the end there. We go shall be saved and we could go on There's so many bills Oh the little text to teach it now when you get to texts that talk about the blood of Jesus Christ Cleansing us from all sin all of those verses are true

Hey Christ is the propitiation for our sins for really what does propitiation mean?

Propitiation means that sacrifice which removes the guilt of sin and therefore the resultant wrath of God against sin but is there truly a propitiatory sacrifice in Roman Catholicism if There can be no meaningful answer given to the question.

Who is the blessed man of Romans 4 8 if Your sin is still imputed to you It is not imputed to Christ if your sin is still imputed to you whether mortal or venial even if you want to make those kinds of distinctions if Your sin is still imputed to you and the guilt for that and the wrath for that so that you can become the enemy of God Then have your sins been truly propitiated.

Well only my past sins. In fact that comes up We may play this a little bit later I've got another clip where he talks to a guy who is entering into the

Catholic Church, but he's never been baptized So he's still gonna be baptized and Tim staples. Oh, man, I Sort of feel jealous you it must be so neat to be able to be baptized late in life

So that all your sins can be washed away See, I mean think about that.

That's the mindset here There's a there's a huge chasm here as men as much as Rome tries to make these these things sound alike

There is a huge chasm between the two John chapter 2 verse 1 and not only our sins

But the sins of the whole world, but the key is that yes while we acknowledge that Christ in his perpetuatory sacrifice he perfected the whole world a

Hebrews 1014 says Christ has perfected forever

Those who are being sanctified so that didn't say the whole world now did it?

And this term perfected is not used in that way and we could discuss what the whole world means but again, notice the

Roman Catholic emphasis upon universalism so as to establish a

Mechanism whereby they can say it in and of itself is not enough That's why they argue try to argue so strongly against reformed theology because if reformed theology is right

Then the entire basis of their system falls apart Christ sacrifice If you look at the context there of Hebrews 10

That's the sacrifice of Christ is what's being emphasized over and against the animal sacrifices that were not perfect That is not the emphasis of Hebrews 10.

Did you catch that? Did you catch that is? Hebrews 10 the contrast between the sacrifice of Christ versus animals

No, what is it that the writer to the Hebrews emphasizes in Hebrews 10 the?

Repetitious nature of the Old Covenant Sacrifices demonstrate that they can never perfect See and why wouldn't

Tim Staples want to see so clearly what the text itself is saying to real obvious Because he has a repetitious non -perfecting sacrifice himself

The mass which can never perfect anyone the mass that you can approach 10 ,000 times 15 ,000 times 20 ,000 times during your life and still die impure is just like the repetitious

Sacrifices of the Old Covenant and since you have to keep coming back and keep coming back and keep coming back

The point of the writer of the Hebrews is that becomes a reminder of sin Since you have to keep coming back.

That means your sins have not been dealt with But we have a once -for -all sacrifice in Jesus Christ that perfects for all time not just not not just a

Hypothetical maybe we hoped for type of a situation Instead you have a one -time

Sacrifice that phrase once for all in Hebrews is not once for all men. It is once for all time

It's a temporal adverb in the original language. There's no question about that and So the point of the right of Hebrews is not

Animal versus Jesus that is a valid contrast, but that's not what Hebrews 10s about that's already been discussed

It's impossible for the blood of both goats and bulls to take away the sins of the world There's no question about that.

But in Hebrews 10, it's the once for allness of the sacrifice of Christ over against the repetitive nature of The Old Covenant sacrifices which demonstrated that they were imperfect

They were pointing to something yet to come but Christ's sacrifice is

The key is to understand that Christ's blood the efficacy of his sacrifice. All of that is perfect Infinite by by nature.

So some of these verses that talk about the blood of Christ and the efficacy of his sacrifice are

Confused or let's say they are taken out of context and they forget about all of the verses that say that perfect Sacrifice of Christ must be applied to our lives

So see what you do and here again is the is the contrast between the God -centered and the man -centered

The God -centered person looks at Scripture and goes what has God done? To bring about his own glory

What he has done is in Jesus Christ This is the act by which he glorifies himself in the greatest way and so I look at that and I see the perfection of it and Then I order everything else in light of the perfection of the work that he has done.

There's nothing about Christ's failure There's nothing about Christ wanting to do things, but he can't do things

There's nothing about Christ's blood being spilled But it's spilled for people that God wishes he could save but he can't save and he's gonna be upset about through all eternity and he's gonna be this unhappy God and None of that anywhere in Scripture But the man -centered turns it around and says well, here's this perfect work of Christ, but I know

Because not everyone's gonna be saved that this must not be enough. There must be more and so He has to force the the phrase part of the word perfect Into the theoretical not into the actually accomplished not into the this is what

God intended to do But we're gonna throw it off into the theoretical realm so that you have this theoretical atonement and this theoretical atonement then only becomes

Actualized when I do and then the list can be short if you're a Protestant or you know

Evangelical or it can be very long if you're a Roman Catholic But the list is still there and the atonement becomes a theoretical thing without the addition of these synergistic activities via for example confession

In fact in 1st John chapter 1 verse 8 and 9 right after John has just talked about how the blood of Christ Cleanses us from all sins.

He then says in verse 9 if you confess Now notice

See what happens when you don't believe in sola scriptura, but then you pretend you play with the Bible Because that's what's going on here.

You don't believe in soul scriptura That's not the scriptures do not provide its own context And so as a

Roman Catholic, what is Staples here when he hears the word confess? he hears a priesthood and he hears confession and sacraments and Yet there was no priesthood.

There was no Sacramental priesthood where you went to a priest and made Confession in the days of the

Apostle John because none of them taught those things and if you think otherwise then I would suggest you listen to the debate between myself and and Mitchell Pacwa on that very subject because I think it's very very clear

He was very clear in admitting that this is a later development and it's a development based upon distinguishing between a

Presbyterian elder And turning that into a priest and there just isn't any

New Testament basis for making that kind of distinction It's just just ain't there. So but this is what happens when you don't believe in soul scriptura

But then you you play with the scriptura the scriptura becomes silly putty in your hands Do you form into whatever you want to form it into right if I back up to verse 8?

He says if any man says he has no sin He is a liar and the truth is not in him But if we confess our sins

He is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness Notice the cleansing.

Well, what cleanses us the blood of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit Working in our lives and so that perfect sacrifice that John talks about and and the blood must be applied involving our cooperation and I think our

Cooperation. There you go So, you know Jesus tries this for everybody even for people that Historically God the

Father never even sent a prophet to never sent a missionary to evidently

Jesus to this day is before the Father and he is is pouring out intercession for the

Canaanites That God the Father never so much as sent a single prophet to but that's said in Moses There are their iniquities not full yet Is that really what we believe

I was listening to Pastor Lawson, I was listening to a series of sermons he did on the

The subject of the atonement obviously in preparation for the cruise and it was good to listen to someone else nice to hear

The very same things you believe being said by others That's a that's a nice thing and and he was talking about how he had been in London and he was attending a seminar there in London and Part of the reading had been on from John Owens death of death and they're having as I recall

It was a breakfast to get together and he was asking some of the students. What do you believe is the greatest

Evidence biblical evidence for particular redemption and One of the gentlemen said without hesitation because this certainly is one of Owen's arguments

And I think it's an excellent argument and that is he said The greatest evidence for particular redemption is the unity of the

Godhead the unity of the Godhead there has to be This unity of the

Godhead to where the Son is not at odds with the Father And if you're truly Trinitarian in your beliefs and you you believe and you recognize that the necessary things that flow from a

Trinitarian faith then certainly when the eternal covenant of redemption

Is is worked out I would say even outside of time from our perspective in eternity past and The Father and the

Son the Spirit take the roles that they take in the redemption of God's people the idea that they are going to take roles that are going to put them at Disagreement with one another

Is just beyond absurd and the idea that the Son would pour out his lifeblood

For those who the Father would not make any effort to bring to himself

To me is is just is just beyond ridiculous. It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever

I see no foundation for I see no reason for it. I know liberal theology well enough

I went to fuller for crying out loud. I know liberal theology well enough to know how

Liberals, you know talk about oh, but did you read what Muttmann said? Did you did you read what

Bultmann said, you know? What this Germans About the suffering

God and how wonderful it is, you know, that's that God suffers in pain in Disappointment and I know that they you know, they sit in seminary classrooms and go.

Oh, that's so profound. Oh That's a profound thought.

I've never thought that before. Well, you know what not all thoughts are equally good to have and The thoughts where we start dragging

God down off of his throne and the thoughts that we have that are not in any way shape or form based upon are forced into our minds by the testimony of inspired scripture may not be the best things to be dwelling on and the idea of the eternally dissatisfied

God The idea that God created and the whole reason he created was so that he could suffer

So that he could be unhappy for eternity and that he could express his desire. Oh, I wish

I could do this I wish I could do that. But you know, I've put limitations on myself. And so I'm gonna be eternally dissatisfied

You know, I I know Why this stuff sad it it it it calls to the the 24 year old seminary student

But it doesn't make it biblical and it doesn't make it true and it doesn't make it right

I know what it's like to be in those seminary classes and and you see that Professor and you see the people around you going.

Oh, I'd never thought about that Well, just cuz you never thought about it doesn't actually mean it's worth thinking about.

That's the problem And now the Academy's infected with that kind of stuff, but anyways, sorry

I went way off on Attention there, so let's

Get back to The Tim Staples here finish this up because we still got to get to some

Shabir Ali That's a key if you go back to John 10 and the verse that I mentioned no one can snatch you out of my hand

Well, yes, that's true. Here comes of course in context. Jesus is taught Here comes man -centeredness folks warning about the coming persecutions that the

Christians would face and all of us face The comfort Jesus is giving is that nobody has the power to take you away from Christ But nowhere in that text does he say you can't go away or you can't turn and walk away

From him G. There it is I mean here you have Jesus in the midst of laying out how the father and the son perf just absolutely perfectly save the sheep the sheep have full confidence in them and and and and no one can snatch away the father and the son are one the salvation of God's people but but The all -powerful

Will of the sheep The shepherd

Cannot save his sheep without what? without the cooperation of the sheep, of course,

I Mean it was the sheep who decided to be a part of his flock. Anyways, right?

That's how it works I mean, we all know that that's how shepherding works is the sheep sit around All of the shepherds come up to the communal pen in the city and They all start going here sheep here sheep.

Choose me and another comes along says no choose me And I'll give you this kind of flavored grass and another one comes along and he comes up with something else and the sheep sit there and they go

I wonder which one I'm gonna follow That's how sheep do it. Y 'all know that right? That's selling that one real good.

Am I no I'm not And Nor should anyone believe me because that's ridiculous it's the shepherd that chooses and forms the flock and this is the sheep hear his voice and they follow him and actually, there was a pen that in a city all the sheep would be in at night and Then the shepherd would come and when he would call out only his sheep will respond to his voice

And that's how he can then call his flock out of the communal Pen that is there and that's the first picture of shepherding that's found in John chapter 10

They hear his voice in why do they hear his voice because they know his voice

Does he choose who's in his flock? Was it he who brought his flock in and brings his flock out? Yes, of course

This idea that it was their choice. Why they go follow this shepherd is of course absurd

Just as absurd as it is for when Jesus makes the application here in John chapter 10

How absurd to say yes, I and the father are one in making a theoretical salvation possible

But I and the father one are also we are one in failure We are one in trying to save for though.

No one can snatch them out of our hands our Hands are tied by the almighty will of the shape

So the almighty sheep Can cause the father and the son to fail as the sheep?

walks away To his own destruction. Yes, this makes it very plain for example in that same gospel of John chapter 15

You know Jesus makes it very plain when he gives us the image of the vine. I am the vine you are the branches

Yeah, let's let's run right out of John 10 and let's go over to John 15 and let's do the vine the branches

And let's ignore Jesus own words That how do you know who the disciples are?

They're the ones who bear fruit. So the ones don't bear fruit. Who are they false professors?

They're not the sheep They are not the ones who hear his voice Let's just tear the gospel of John to pieces, but we do that in John 6 anyways, right

I Mean to talk about people who tear John John's gospel apart Rome does that big time because while they might want to talk about eating flesh and drinking blood a whole lot

They don't want to talk about the sovereignty of God that precedes eating of the flesh and drinking of the blood

Because that's the only way that gives actual sense to the rest of the text. So hey, there you go

There's there's Tim Staples once again Demonstrating what happens when you don't believe in solo scriptura you believe

You believe in other stuff and then you you insert it into the text of Scripture Well, let's leave

Catholic answers behind for the last 18 16 minutes of the program

And let's go back to Shapiro Lee and his objections interestingly enough to pretty much same thing It is a little bit odd That we're not really shifting gears too much in fact, listen this is it

I didn't plan this in fact I was gonna do should be our first But isn't it interesting that we just heard?

Tim Staples emphasizing universality universality, you know ignoring Jews and Gentiles and Listen to what we're gonna pick up with with should be

Raleigh according to the glorious Quran So this is not a very favorable way of looking at God.

It's not a favorable way of Understanding this question a fourth problem is that if you say that Jesus died for the sins of the world

Well, that would mean that God should have no longer any claim on human beings God can no longer penalize you or I for the sins that we commit because our sins are already paid for remember

For our sins are already paid for that means we can go ahead and sin and God could no longer penalize us

In fact some of the people who had read some of the writings of Paul Eventually took this view and they went ahead committing sins

Drunkenness adultery and so on and I called had to write back to them and tell them no, you can't really do it that way

Just because God has been Graceful to you. He has given you some of his bounties.

He has forgiven you doesn't mean that you should take advantage of that You should be good

But that of course misses the main point If you think that God is going to question you for your sins

Then you make absolutely sure that you don't commit too many When you go to the store, for example, you don't make a change.

You see you've got a penny extra. What do you do with that penny? If you think that God is going to ask me about this penny, but then you make sure you hand the penny right back

You say look, sorry, you give me one penny too many but what has happened as We have noticed and we read on the news again and again is that some of these people who go about preaching though Jesus died for your sins and so on The very same people we read about that they commit one mistake after another they become publicly exposed perhaps

The thing that makes a person Refrain from sin is the idea that God is going to question me about these crimes and catch that a couple things

I just let him go on there to get enough of the never the context I Don't know.

Well, yeah, Tony might but yeah, maybe I'm not sure if they've had a discussion about this but most of the people that Shabir has debated are not reformed and so I Don't know if he's had a discussion with Tony Costa Yeah He did have a discussion with Tony Costa on on the cross

But the majority of the people with whom he has had interaction are not reformed and so they would defend a universal non specific and therefore theoretical atonement and That's not gonna be the case

And in fact, I will make that clear from the start and I know I can just hear the Armenians Don't bring that Calvinism in blah blah blah blah blah

Hey, it's called being consistent and it's called being biblical and I'm not going to apologize in the non classical sense that term for being consistent to what

I have taught and preached all along and So you first heard that, you know

Well, it's a universal atonement then we've all been forgiven of our sins as if what that means is that God does not apply that in Regeneration and It also would make it impossible for there to be anything like death for future generations in fact one of the objections honestly is

That well if this was supposed to get rid of the curse of sin Then we should all be back into the Garden of Eden just like that.

That's one of the objections I think it's still coming up here well, I won't jump onto that right now because I think it's will be played here anyway, but Here you have and then did you catch why should we obey

God's law because we're gonna be judged eventually Well, yeah, okay however

Isn't there something more to it in Scripture than that? I mean from the Islamic perspective. Yeah, that's that's why there's gonna be a judgment

That's why but that leaves the Christian exhortation to glorify

God in your body Why because of what he has done on the cross

Leaves that without really much of an explanation from the Islamic perspective. You have to go it Islam is always a step away from the completeness of Christ because it is so clear

Muhammad did not understand what Christ did So very very clear so very very obvious And the thing that perhaps makes the person more free to commit wrong is the idea that somebody's already died for my sins

So if somebody's died for my sins logically It is implied that God can no longer penalize us for the same sins.

So There you go. You get a universal atonement and tie that together without any concept of regeneration

Not any concept of repentance You tie that together with a rejection of God having a purpose and a means by which he is redeeming a particular people

He changes them. He takes out a heart of stone gives him a heart of flesh The you end up with a real mess as a result that well, there's no reason for us to behave

Because all our sins have been taken away. Anyways, so it's all cool. That's the objection being presented

To see the number of problems that are associated with just saying that Jesus died for your sins

Now one way of explaining this has been to say that Because the first man committed a sin the effect of that was on all of the people

And now to cancel that effect Jesus came and died.

Well, let's see if this is actually materialized First what was the effect of the first sin?

We've already hinted that according to Paul's writings that because of the first sin death entered the world if Adam didn't sin

Paul says we wouldn't have been dying Now that Jesus came and died he has paid the penalty.

He has reversed things So that would mean that we should no longer die But that has not happened because people still keep dying for the last 2 ,000 years after Jesus People still keep dying as before another consequence was mentioned.

Is that that was an objection in case you missed that? Evidently from that perspective that as soon as Jesus Well, I guess resurrected then death should cease

Because you're just going well, he died for everybody's sins and therefore all sins are forgiven so therefore the idea of difference between physical death and spiritual death the idea that God has a purpose in Bringing about the redemption of his people in each generation and if you know, everybody just stopped dying

That somehow the idea that God has to he's forced somehow to apply this automatically to everybody

At the same time the same way All this somehow, you know,

I don't know where this comes from It certainly doesn't come from Paul, but the idea is well If Paul says that the effects of sin are going to be reversed.

Oh, but wait a minute actually in Romans 5 He what he says is there's two humanities as the humanity in Adam and we're all in Adam That's why we die

But there only is certain people who are in who are in Christ and the result that they have is actually different Drat the parallel isn't exactly the same because in Romans 5 he actually says that what they get is greater

Than what they could have had in Adam had he not sinned because they're now in Christ And oh does

Paul actually define what the people in Christ get? Oh, yeah, he does. It's it's eternal life.

It's spiritual life It's not just a physical thing. And in fact eventually, you know adoption as sons of Christ Through Christ to God and it's that eternal life and glorification actually gonna get better than what they would have had in Adam So actually when you let

Paul define his own categories, it's sort of unfair To make this kind of an argument against him, isn't it?

But we don't have to let Paul define his own categories because Paul was just false teacher Anyways, I guess is sort of the reason that's a result of the sin of Adam Adam will have to keep struggling for his living

It is end of the book of Genesis that Adam will have to Eat bread by the sweat of his brow and he will have to gather his food from among thorns and thistles

In other words life will be tough If I ask you you will say life is tough even here in Canada.

We're still sweating for our living. Isn't that right? so the death of Jesus has not reversed the circumstances as If it was the biblical teaching that the immediate result of Jesus death

Would be to change the physical circumstances of even those who are unredeemed Hmm Thirdly was said in the book of Genesis that as a result of the sin of Adam and Eve Eve will have to forever bear children or continue bearing children in pain

Okay So from this perspective the cross provides an immediate epidural,

I guess Where do you get this kind of thing? It just doesn't where does do the scriptures provide a foundation of this kind of objection?

aside from the fact that obviously Shabir is presenting here a rather absurd

Extrapolation from a universal atonement concept that you know, just just isn't there in Scripture Well, that has not really changed as if women are still bearing children in pain

So the death of Jesus has not reversed This whole scenario a very important point is this that as a result of the sin of Adam and Eve they were driven out of the garden of Eden now

If Jesus died for the sins Then the people should be returned to the garden of Eden because they were driven out as a consequence of the sin

Now that the price is paid for they should be put back in think of it this way which of course

Is in essence what is promised in the presence of the New Jerusalem the presence of God with his people?

but even more so because again If he was being honest with Paul at this point

Paul didn't say it's a one -to -one correspondence We just go back to Eden in reality What we get is life in Christ union with Christ adoption as the children of God, which

Adam did not have and Glorification which will include dwelling in the presence of God without separation for eternity

So it's all there So the only problem here is that he's making the false application to every single individual forgetting that of course

There is this issue of the unregenerate and the reprobate and so on so forth. Suppose we have the hostage

And we pay the price then the hostage should be released The hostage was in freedom

Held in captivity we paid the price should be taken out of captivity and given freedom again which of course

When that sacrifice is applied by the Holy Spirit of God to us in that act of regeneration faith

Taking out of the heart of stone giving the heart of flesh raising the dead to life is exactly what happens

We are freed from the tyranny of sin but see the problem is when you read the

New Testament as a Muslim and you ignore all it says about sin and Slavery to sin and stuff like that.

You just tear that out. That can't be true That's why you have this kind of Wow These these are intelligent people, but when they read this text, where's where's the problems come?

It's it's like entire Passages disappear from their reading. That's right. I remember

Similar context I remember a former Mormon a man who converted from Mormonism and he was a missionary and I this many many years ago, but but it's stuck in my in my mind

He he mentioned he said, you know, he said after I was converted. I went back to my old

Missionary Bible and I had tried to read through the Bible as it was on my mission He tried to be a good missionary and he said

I looked at the stuff that I marked and It shocked me that there would be

You know two verses away from something I marked there were these statements that were directly Contradictory to the teaching the

Mormon Church, but I didn't mark him because I I couldn't even remember having seen them so thick were the glasses of Mormon tradition that I was wearing that though my eyes ran down the lines

I Don't even recall reading it. I know I read it because I marked something two verses later

But I don't remember reading it because of Well being non -regenerate not having spiritual eyes to see spiritual things,

I guess So now if Adam and Eve were in freedom of Garden of Eden, they can roam wherever they want

They can eat whatever they want then because of their sin. They're now in captivity in the sinful

Imperfect world now that the price is paid. They should be removed back Put placed in the

Garden of Eden the place of freedom You see they were deprived of a certain thing because of what they did

Once the sin is paid for they should be put back in suppose somebody's banished from Canada He's deported because of a certain crime and now his crime is paid for then he should be allowed to come back in Otherwise, there's no reason to pay the price and if I'm deported for a certain crime

I'm going to say well if I can't come back in I won't pay the price What you hear over and over again, not just from Shabir Ali, but from Jamal Badawi and everybody you listen to There there is just a huge Chasm between the

Christian and the Muslim when it comes to sin For the Muslim it's making mistakes

It's being imperfect The idea of rebellion the idea of of That which is a stench in the nostrils of God that that that that pollution

That we see so clearly in Isaiah 6 when when Isaiah senses his own sinfulness

He sees God in his holiness, and he I am undone. I Am undone.

I'm a man of unclean lips. I live amongst two people one clean lips. He senses his impurity. It's not there It's just it's just not a part of their experience and and some people might say yeah, and then doesn't that make?

Islamic apologetics in Islamic evangelism impossible no Because the

Muslim is creating the image of Christ in the image of God I'm sorry recreate an image of Christ is creating the image of God He bears the

Imago Dei and therefore just as with the secularist just as with anybody

What is the only mechanism whereby these things are going to become true in their own thinking in their own lives

It's by the work of the Holy Spirit of God bringing conviction of sin that's

That's where it is, and that's what we're gonna be trusting in a week From tomorrow week from tomorrow evening up there in Seattle if you're in the area

Please we would love to see you if you can travel there Think about it stay with us at the

SeaTac Marriott and be with us for the debate on Friday night pray for us next week certainly pray for my health obviously

I'm gonna be a little bit busy over the next number of days all of us are pray for us We look forward to sharing our report from what takes place on the next dividing line

Which will be a week from this coming Tuesday. We'll see you then God bless Oh We need new reformation

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