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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five. Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

Travel Plans, Seattle Debate, and the Week Off

And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line last dividing line before the the big week in Seattle sort of Canada Places like that and I have been looking at the weather forecast those of you coming up.

Ponchos and sweaters would be the waterproof kind of ponchos or waterproof sweaters, I suppose that's uh, I haven't really seen that kind of sweater cuz That's unusual. But anyway That is for those of you who are getting off the ship going outside the ship things like that for those of us who don't Do that.

It's not really a big deal except for the few times you do wander outside under underneath something. It looks like it's gonna be yeah, I hear it too. It's sort of a Like maybe it's it's for the it's it's the water the water going by the ship.

Maybe we're just sort of I maybe do I need do I need to adjust this again? Maybe? Pot it up. See what we've got there. Yeah, no. We'll find out anyways for those of you hearing up don't worry about it's it's us but I've always said this connection.

It's either the computer or the connection is just a little bit on the hokey side but anyway, I'm gonna be playing some things today for you and Gonna actually start off backwards from what I was gonna do.

Just an announcement again next week no dividing lines a little bit difficult to do from at sea and there wouldn't be anybody here to Run it. Anyways, so I don't think Z could do it. So and he's not gonna be here.

Anyways, so we're sort of stuck there but No dividing lines next week, obviously Lord willing the Tuesday following Which would be what the 20 21st? I think somewhere around there. I will be giving a report 23rd would be giving a report on the debate and Lord willing it will be a good report looking forward to seeing all of you up there.

I just got word today. That's a Friend of mine that actually I've never met. I've there's I've got two. Well, actually a couple but two Specifically Marine Corps colonels that I've been in contact with for a number of years.

I've met one of the two we went out shooting together once and The other and I have not had the opportunity meeting is actually just by God's providence going to be up in Seattle over that week over this weekend that coming weekend and gonna be able to be at the debate.

So I'm looking forward to to meeting him as well. So everybody In that area, please if if you want to I've mentioned it before I'll mention it again. You can watch a DVD of a debate and that's a good way of doing things.

You can listen to the mp3s. That's a good way of doing things. But if you've got the opportunity to be there, it's just something you don't forget down the road. Now some people make it more memorable by turning off the lights during the middle of the debate.

You know things like that, but you don't need to do that. You can just come and enjoy the debate and I Just ruined somebody's pizza. But anyway Join us for the debate Friday night, October 19th SeaTac Marriott 7 o 'clock I'll be debating Shabir Ali on the subject of the crucifixion and we were going to get back to some of Shabir Ali's Objections to the crucifixion before the end of the hour but first as I've mentioned James Swan is Going to be.

I love the lag that we have in the IRC Channel. Mm-hmm. Some people are just now Responding. Some some time snobs are just now responding. Maybe that's what the lag is, you know, East Coast stuff, you know, but a poor.

Yeah, I will text you during this program. Go ahead. My phone's not in the studio today so I can make a difference but You enjoy that pizza there red, especially after your Cubs did so well against the Diamondbacks.

But anyway Sorry about that we are going to. What in the world are you doing down there rich? Oh, you got a broom out. Rich is very rich is sweeping out the did you find some Cubs on the floor there rich?

No, they're gone yes. That's great. Anyway, we really shouldn't be doing that. James Swan has been sending me Clips he's been listening to Catholic answers live and So he's been sending me clips and he sent me some clips from our our good buddy Tim Staples, you know I still wish I had I need to track them down some some of these specific clips from Tim Staples.

Let me just look here just for a second. I might still have these some place. Here we got this up. I I have no idea what this is gonna be. I'm gonna play it in channel and let's see what comes out this.

Oh Drat. I thought there used to be a sound file. Well here Timothy Staples said in his tape series infallibility versus impeccability from st. Joseph communications tape one Second side quote you do have some Protestants who tend toward that sort of schizophrenic understanding of the human person.

You know, it's not me that sins. It's my body if you have ever heard of the hyper Calvinist movement or the one saved always saved people that will say oh I'm saved my body over there just messes up, but I'm fine laughs.

You know, that's not biblical folks. There's no biblical thing for that. It's a misinterpretation of Romans chapter 7. But that's another story. I Love that. There's no biblical thing for that. That's that was the quotation I thought I had to quote maybe I didn't.

I never did but anyway Good old Tim Staples whenever he addresses this subject. It's it's quite Quite interesting and so we have a little clip here where he is addressing the issue of once saved always saved now.

It would be nice if some of these folks now, of course Tim Staples background wouldn't allow him to do this. But even those who were former Protestants who would have a sufficient background to make the distinction the distinction Between the perseverance of the Saints and a a God-centered view of the perseverance of the Saints versus the antinomian Wilkins Hodges mishmash of Fault stuff where it's gets to take a punch go to heaven doesn't matter God isn't doing anything in you anyways, and doesn't really matter if he you know, there's any sanctification stuff like that.

It'd be nice if they'd make that kind of differentiation, but you just can't expect them to do that, unfortunately. But in in all of these situations what you see is the massive difference Between man-centered theology and God-centered theology remember we were going through the Steve Gregg stuff.

We we kept commenting on as you would look at text of Scripture at least he was looking at the text of Scripture. He may have come up with some really bad Interpretations of Acts 13 48 and stuff like that, but at least he was looking at the text.

It's better than most people do but we kept coming back to the the point Whether you are whether you believe salvation is the work of God and hence it is centered upon him and his glory and his accomplishment or whether it is basically the work of man and therefore centered upon his activities and Depending on what your mindset is at that point you will hear texts like he who perseveres to the end shall be saved and If you are a man-centered Theologian Then what you're gonna hear there is a Prescription here is the prescription for how it is to become saved you do so by persevering to the end.

That becomes part of the mechanism, and I noticed on James Swan's blog today. It wasn't him I think it was one of those he's now has a team blog himself. I believe it was Carrie Had put together a whole list out of the Catholic Catechism of things that are said to be necessary for salvation and It's pretty long list when you start reading it and when you've got that kind of a mindset then you you focus upon that kind of thing and you you See that text and you go ah see this is one of the things that I need to do to become saved so.

That's the man-centered Perspective, but if you see the gospel if you take a much larger view. And you see that what God is doing is is he is glorifying himself that he has a purpose that he is pursuing.

And he is doing so to his own glory and it's not this idea of a God who's just trying and trying and he's constantly frustrated and and you know that the great butler in the sky who just wound this mess up and and Now it's it's just completely out of control.

And he's just doing the best you can to put it all back together again if you don't take that view and you take the view that God is glorifying himself, and he has control over his universe and In fact he had a purpose when he created.

And he's continuing to pursue that purpose and to accomplish that purpose even in it with perfection. You take that view and you hear a text like he who endures the end shall be saved. And you don't go ah see my endurance is what could save me you see these texts as Descriptive not prescriptive.

They're not giving a prescription. They're giving you a description. Because it's not man who's gonna save himself. It is the fact that if man is truly saved by God He's going to persevere. There's going to be that work of the Holy Spirit of God within him that faith that has been given to him as a divine Faith and it's not going to fail and that's why when you see apostasy.

There is no basis for a believer. To look at that person go I Me myself I am better than that person now from the anthropocentric man-centered viewpoint. Yeah, everybody can say that you see an apostate and go.

Oh well. I lasted a lot longer that person. I'm a whole lot better off than them. I'm better than they are because you're looking to yourself. There's been something about you that makes you better than that other person and.

So Man-centered view or God-centered view well obviously Rome can't have much of a man-centered view because Rome has to make room for her Sacramental system to keep her people in line and keep her people under her control so let's listen to this this caller who calls about the heresy the false teaching of.

One saved always saved. My question is on the false doctrine of once saved always saved. Yes, I have a two-part question. I was just wondering Where did that doctrine come from. And when did it first start getting circulated.

And whenever I? Engage Protestants that believe in this doctrine one of the things they say is That the blood of Jesus covers them so right. And I guess their sins don't count anymore. When they go to heaven you know they're not God's not going to see their sins.

They're gonna see Jesus is. I was wondering how do I would respond to that right. Well?

You're right. It's answer the first question first it. Basically the teaching began with with John Calvin because remember Martin Luther did not agree with him on that point. Luther taught that you could lose your your salvation even though he said whether you lose it or not does not depend upon Your moral actions it depends upon your your fidu your faith.

You know whether you whether you believe or not so the only way you could lose your salvation is to not believe in Christ. Anymore, but he did believe that it was possible to lose your salvation. It was John Calvin that Sort of he's the the father of that Teaching.

I use the word father in in Parentheses here of that teaching of once saved always saved.

Perseverance of the Saints and the Difference Between Descriptive and Prescriptive Texts

Let me just break in for just a moment there and just point out that again. If you were giving a meaningful overview You would probably have to say now of course Augustin likewise said the elect can never fall away and That he grounded that in the very same foundation that Calvin did but that the difference being that Augustin allowed for this idea of Non-elect Christians and that goes back to the contradictions theology that came about from the two major conflicts in his life that is the Donatus controversy in the plaguing controversy, and we've talked about all that stuff in the past, but.

And it was the fifth part of what came to be known as the tulip the five points of Calvinism. Which is the the fifth point me being the perseverance of the Saints. And the idea is that if you are truly saved.

Well, then you never will fall away. You you are kept as Calvin said in the perseverance of the Saints the Holy Spirit keeps you.

Of course if we want to really describe this then he would be pointing out that Obviously the Calvinistic system is focused upon God's glorification of himself in the salvation of a specific people called the elect Through a perfect perpetuatory work on the part of Jesus Christ in their behalf.

And that is why they cannot be lost is because God doesn't mess up in self glorification.

To the day of redemption using verses like Ephesians 430 The Holy Spirit has sealed you unto the day of redemption.

Yes, but before that Ephesians 1 which speaks of the Holy Spirit as the Arabon the down payment by which we are sealed Unto the day of redemption and that as the result of all that came before that which includes of course the eternal purpose of God The selection of an of a specific people the fact that is we who are chosen in Christ is not Christ.

And we're chosen in him. We are chosen. We are the direct object of that term to choose and we are chosen in Christ never separate from but only in him only one way of salvation that all flows down into that purpose, but You can't expect someone who came out of the assemblies of God to really focus upon those particular aspects because that's not the normative.

Theology for AG churches would use verses like that to say. Or John chapter 10 where Jesus says no one can snatch you out of my hand And no one can snatch you out of the Father's hand. No. Well, of course the problem with that is.

Is that yes, we are sealed unto well.

Let me just stop right there for a moment the John 10 Text and we are gonna be looking at John 10 in regards to the Atonement on the on the ship. The John 10 text is within the context of Jesus speaking about being the Good Shepherd Who lays down his life for the sheep and in the same context? He says to the Jews you are not of my sheep.

And one of the constant Refrains a Roman theology in the Catholic Catechism. It comes up over and over again is the emphasis upon a universalism In the work of Christ and they they have to do that because they're parceling out that work of Christ to the sacramental system.

So it can never be perfective in of itself. It has to be Described as perfect, but then you have to go but it's only theoretically perfect. It's not personally perfect because then there has to be this sacramentalism, which is now coming in right here the day of redemption.

But what is that sealing talking about? Well, it's talking about the Holy Spirit sealing us unto the day of redemption, which we know to occur in.

Baptism and confirmation we really is that when we know that to occur? I Wonder where we get that in Scripture. Actually that ceiling in Ephesians 1. I looked around for the word confirmation there someplace can't can't find anywhere and obviously that that ceiling is actually the work of the Spirit in Regeneration as result of of course the the decree of the Father in the work of the Son.

It's trying majesty in bringing about the the gospel and redemption, but Here you here you have the sacramentalism coming in receipt. We receive.

Seals that will be with us for all eternity, but that doesn't mean that those gifts are going to be fruitful in our lives.

Unto salvation now remember here here it is. Here's the difference between man-centered and God-centered here are these seals see and These seals may not be fruitful even though as far as we can tell it is the intention of God in all of the biblical text.

I remember we've already Abandoned the biblical text this point because he has already brought in unbiblical things like confirmation. Which you're not gonna find anybody talking about and of course even the early church the concept of the sacraments and especially the seven sacraments didn't develop for quite some time so but still These have been brought in and so now you have Seals that may not be fruitful for salvation so remember.

I remember one of the Points at time there have been a number of points in time my debates with Roberts and Janice where people have gasped from the audience the one was when he talked about the the Apart the heretical Popes there are a number of Catholics in the audience.

They're like hey wait a minute I thought he was on our side. You know and Then during the justification debate. I don't remember if it was during the debate itself or in the audience questions thereafter.

But he made the very clear statement that there are going to be sons of God those bearing the very seals of Salvation who are going to be in hell so the sons of God are going to be in hell and There are Protestants who hold that view as well there are Protestants who would.

You know the federal vision perspective would definitely you know when you listen to Doug Wilson saying hey How do you evangelize Roman Catholics you grab them by their baptism in other words they've received that seal and now you try to get that to become fruitful and.

And basically by saying they've been unfaithful to a covenant to which they have been committed by Trinitarian baptism and so there are a number of folks who would go well. You've got a point there. You know and and I just simply go well the problem is if we actually take this to Scripture.

That sealing in Ephesians is not a hoped-for thing. It is the work of the Holy Spirit, and it is only in the lives the regenerate and you can't mix the two there are things We have to do.

Namely be obedient unto death as as Jesus said in Revelation 2 10 be faithful unto death.

See there did I not say beforehand? When you hear something about being faithful unto death persevering to the end if you're man-centered that becomes Prescriptive it you add it to the list if you're God-centered.

It is descriptive. It is descriptive of what the Holy Spirit of God accomplishes in the lives of.

His elect people all to his glory, and I will give you the crown of life. Or as Paul puts it in Romans 6 16 He says no you not and he's speaking to Christians No, you're not that whosoever you yield yourself servants to obey his servants you are whether it be sin which leads to death or obedience which leads to.

Justification so you know we see and again a lot of people have struggled with with Paul's language there, but again here the here the Immediate Roman Catholic concept coming in here you you jump into Romans.

And you skip past all the total depravity stuff and you skip past The the inabilities of man you skip past the justification and the the imputation of righteousness of Christ and peace we have having been Justified and then you jump into Romans 6 where you're talking specifically about Christians and living the Christian life.

And what do you do you just go? Oh well at least death that must mean that you can be alive and then die and then be alive and then die and to be Alive and then die because of course in Roman Catholic theology.

It's not just be alive die you're gone. It's not the Hebrew six thing because in their perspective you can have the grace of justification. Lose the grace of justification through the commission of mortal sin be rejustified the the sacrament of penance confession the forgiveness of the eternal punishment of sin.

Then you've got the the temporal punishment of sin that has to be forgiven through The penances and so on so forth and that adds up on your soul. That's why you go to purgatory and then you can blow it again.

And you can lose it and gain it and lose and gain your friend of God son of God Enemy of God not a child of God back and forth back and forth.

Repeatedly many times in your life the Bible teaches plainly that we must continue to obey.

We must endure until the end Matthew 10 22 or Christ can't save us or in fact Christ can't save anybody without that Synergistic cooperation and that's where you have to draw the line today and Obviously if you draw the line biblically and clearly man.

There's a lot of folks who do not bow the knee to the Pope on the other side that line these days. They're really really it's really the case and people on that side line. Hey, they have a hard time arguing with Roman Catholics.

Especially when they discover that on the nature of grace and nature of man. They actually agree with.

With the Pope right. Jesus said you will be hated of all men for my name's sake. But he that endures till the end there. We go shall be saved and we could go on. There's so many biblical texts that teach it now when you get to texts that talk about the blood of Jesus Christ Cleansing us from all sin.

All of those verses are true.

Hey Christ is the propitiation for our sins. For really what does propitiation mean? Propitiation means that sacrifice which removes the guilt of sin and therefore the resultant wrath of God against sin.

But is there truly a propitiatory sacrifice in Roman Catholicism if there can be no meaningful answer given to the question Who is the blessed man of Romans 4 8 if your sin is still imputed to you? It is not imputed to Christ if your sin is still imputed to you whether mortal or venial even if you want to make those kinds of distinctions.

If Your sin is still imputed to you and the guilt for that and the wrath for that so that you can become the enemy of God. Then have your sins been truly propitiated. Well only my past sins. In fact that comes up.

We may play this a little bit later. I've got another clip where he talks to a guy who is entering into the Catholic Church, but he's never been baptized. So he's still gonna be baptized and Tim staples.

Oh, man, I Sort of feel jealous you it must be so neat to be able to be baptized late in life. So that all your sins can be washed away. See, I mean think about that. That's the mindset here. There's a there's a huge chasm here as men as much as Rome tries to make these these things sound alike.

There is a huge chasm between the two John chapter 2 verse 1 and not only our sins.

But the sins of the whole world, but the key is that yes while we acknowledge that Christ in his perpetuatory sacrifice he perfected the whole world a Hebrews 1014 says Christ has.

Perfected forever. Those who are being sanctified so that didn't say the whole world now did it? And this term perfected is not used in that way and we could discuss what the whole world means. But again, notice the Roman Catholic emphasis upon universalism so as to establish a Mechanism whereby they can say it in and of itself is not enough.

That's why they argue try to argue so strongly against reformed theology because if reformed theology is right Then the entire basis of their system falls apart. Christ sacrifice.

If you look at the context there of Hebrews 10 That's the sacrifice of Christ is what's being emphasized over and against the animal sacrifices that were not perfect.

That is not the emphasis of Hebrews 10 did you catch that did you catch. That is Hebrews 10 the contrast between the sacrifice of Christ versus animals. No, what is it that the writer to the Hebrews emphasizes in Hebrews 10 the?

Repetitious nature of the Old Covenant sacrifices demonstrate that they can never perfect see. And Why wouldn't Tim Staples want to see so clearly what the text itself is saying? Drill obvious. Because he has a repetitious non perfecting sacrifice himself.

The mass which can never perfect anyone the mass that you can approach 10 ,000 times 15 ,000 times 20 ,000 times during your life and still die impure is just like the repetitious sacrifices of the Old Covenant.

And since you have to keep coming back and keep coming back and keep coming back the point of the writer of the Hebrews is That becomes a reminder of sin since you have to keep coming back. That means your sins have not been dealt with but we have a once-for-all Sacrifice in Jesus Christ that perfects for all time not just not not just a Hypothetical maybe we hoped for type of a situation.

Instead you have a one-time Sacrifice. That phrase once for all in Hebrews is not once for all men it is once for all time. It's a temporal adverb in the original language. There's no question about that and So the point of the writer of Hebrews is not Animal versus Jesus that is a valid contrast, but that's not what Hebrews 10s about that's already been discussed.

It's impossible for the blood of both of goats and bulls to take away the sins of the world. It's a question about that, but in Hebrews 10. It's the once-for-allness of the sacrifice of Christ over against the repetitive nature of The Old Covenant sacrifices which demonstrated that they were imperfect.

They were pointing to something yet to come.

But Christ's sacrifice is the key is to understand that Christ's blood the efficacy of his sacrifice all of that is Perfect Infinite by by nature. So some of these verses that talk about the blood of Christ and the efficacy of his sacrifice are Confused or let's say they are taken out of context and they forget about all of the verses that say that perfect Sacrifice of Christ must be applied to our lives.

So see what you do and here again. Is the contrast between the God-centered and the man said the God-centered person looks at Scripture and goes what has God done? To bring about his own glory. What he has done is in Jesus Christ this is the act by which he glorifies himself in the greatest way and so I look at that and I see the Perfection of it and then I order everything else in light of the perfection of the work that he has done.

There's nothing about Christ's failure, there's nothing about Christ wanting to do things, but he can't do things. There's nothing about Christ's blood being spilled. But but it's spilled for people that God wishes he could save but he can't save and he's gonna be upset about through all eternity and he's gonna be this unhappy God.

And None of that anywhere in Scripture. But the man-centered turns it around and says well, here's this perfect work of Christ. But I know because not everyone's gonna be saved. That this must not be enough there must be more and so he has to force the phrase per the word perfect.

Into the theoretical not into the actually accomplished not into the this is what God intended to do. But we're gonna throw it off into the theoretical realm. So that you have this theoretical atonement and this theoretical atonement.

Then only becomes actualized when I do and then the list can be short if you're a Protestant or Evangelical or it can be very long if you're a Roman Catholic. But the list is still there and the atonement becomes a theoretical thing without the addition of these synergistic.

Activities via for example confession. In fact in first John chapter 1 verse 8 and 9 right after John has just talked about how the blood of Christ cleanses us From all sins. He then says in verse 9 if you confess.

Now notice see what happens when you don't believe in solo scriptura. But then you pretend you play with the Bible because that's what's going on here. You don't believe in soul scripture. That's not.

The scriptures do not provide its own context. And so as a Roman Catholic What is Staples here when he hears the word confess he hears a priesthood and he hears confession and sacraments and. Yet there was no priesthood there was no sacramental priesthood where you went to a priest and made Confession in the days of the Apostle John because none of them taught those things.

And if you think otherwise then I would suggest you listen to the debate between myself and and Mitchell Pacwa on that very subject because I think it's very very clear. He was very clear in admitting that this is a later development and it's a development based upon distinguishing between a presbyterian elder.

And turning that into a priest and there just isn't any New Testament basis for making that kind of distinction. It's just just ain't there. So. But this is what happens when you don't believe in soul scriptura.

But then you you play with the scriptura the scriptura becomes silly putty in your hands.

You form into whatever you want to form it into. Right if I back up to verse 8. He says if any man says he has no sin He's a liar and the truth is not in him. But if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins and to cleanse us from all Unrighteousness.

Notice the cleansing. Well, what cleanses us. The blood of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit. Working in our lives and so that perfect sacrifice that John talks about and and the blood must be applied.

Involving our cooperation and I think our Cooperation. There you go.

The Roman Catholic View of Atonement, Confession, and Sacramentalism

So, you know Jesus tries this for everybody even for people. Historically God the Father never even sent a prophet to never sent a missionary to evidently Jesus to this day is before the Father and he is is Pouring out intercession for the Canaanites.

That God the Father never so much as sent a single prophet to but that's said to Moses Stop up there. Their iniquity is not full yet. Is that really what we believe. I was listening to Pastor Lawson, I was listening to a series of sermons he did on the The subject of the atonement obviously in preparation for the cruise and it was good to listen to someone else nice to hear.

The very same things you believe being said by others. That's a that's a nice thing and and he was talking about how he had been in London and he was attending a seminar there in London and part of the reading had been From John Owens death of death and they're having as I recall it was a breakfast to get together.

And he was asking some of the students. What do you believe is? The greatest evidence biblical evidence for particular redemption and One of the gentlemen said without Hesitation because this certainly is one of Owen's arguments and I think it's an excellent argument and that is he said The greatest evidence for particular redemption is the unity of the Godhead the unity of the Godhead there has to be.

This unity of the Godhead to where the son is not at odds with the father and if you're truly Trinitarian in your beliefs and you you believe and you recognize that the necessary things that flow from a Trinitarian faith then certainly when the eternal covenant of redemption is is worked out I would say even outside of time from our perspective in eternity past and The father and the son the spirit take the roles that they take in the redemption of God's people the idea that they are going to take roles that are going to put them at Disagreement with one another Is just beyond absurd and the idea that the son would pour out his lifeblood For those who the father would not make any effort to bring to himself To me is is just is just beyond ridiculous.

It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. I see no foundation for I see no reason for it. I know liberal theology well enough I went to fuller for crying out loud. I know liberal theology well enough to know how Liberals, you know talk about oh, but did you read what Muttmann said?

Did you did you read what Bultmann said, you know? What this Germans About the suffering God and how wonderful it is, you know, that's that God suffers in pain in Disappointment and I know that they you know, they sit in seminary classrooms and go.

Oh, that's so profound. Oh That's a profound thought. I've never thought that before. Well, you know what not all thoughts are equally good to have and The thoughts where we start dragging God down off of his throne and the thoughts that we have that are not in any way shape or form based upon are forced into our minds by the testimony of inspired scripture may not be the best things to be dwelling on and the idea of the eternally dissatisfied God.

The idea that God created and the whole reason he created was so that he could suffer. So that he could be unhappy for eternity and that he could express his desire. Oh, I wish I could do this. I wish I could do that.

But you know, I've put limitations on myself. And so I'm gonna be eternally dissatisfied. You know, I I know Why this stuff sad it it it it calls to the the 24 year old seminary student. But it doesn't make it biblical and it doesn't make it true and it doesn't make it right I Know what it's like to be in those seminary classes and and you see that Professor and you see the people around you going.

Oh, I'd never thought about that. Well, just cuz you never thought about it doesn't actually mean it's worth thinking about. That's the problem. And now the Academy's infected with that kind of stuff, but anyways, sorry I went way off on Attention there, so let's Get back to The Tim Staples here finish this up because we still got to get to some Shabir Ali.

That's a key if you go back to John 10 and the verse that I mentioned no one can snatch you out of my hand. Well, yes, that's true. Here comes of course in context. Jesus is talking. Here comes man-centeredness folks warning about the coming persecutions that the Christians would face and all of us face.

The comfort Jesus is giving is that nobody has the power to take you away from Christ but nowhere in that text does he say you can't turn away or You can't turn and walk away from him. G. There it is.

I mean here you have Jesus in the midst of laying out how the father and the son perf just absolutely perfectly save the sheep the sheep have full confidence in them and and and and no one can snatch away.