August 23, 2005

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

The Jesus Seminar, John Dominic Crossan, and Marcus Borg as Ultra-Liberal Theology

Well, welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday the 23rd of August the last dividing line for quite some time at least until Let's see Tuesday September 6th. So about two weeks off I'm sure you all could use the rest.

I I confess I do not have any John Croson or Marcus Borg sound clips to play and I You know, I was sort of feeling bad for my folks at Phoenix reformed Baptist Church last about three weeks or so. They've had to listen to Bible study classes where I've been going over What the Jesus seminar teaches and and what John Dominic Croson teaches and I got the real Impression looking at everyone's faces on Sunday.

That they had they come to the conclusion that for them. That's pretty much all they really need to know About John Dominic Croson. In fact, once the DVDs are available, which I'm sure rich will be having those babies out.

Just I mean, you know, there's probably gonna be a package sitting for me waiting at the at the gangplank. We get off the off the ship With with the DVDs in it so we can watch it on the way home or something on the plane or whatever I mean, it's just gonna be boom and and the conference I'm sorry.

Well have the 2005 conference out before the 2004 anyway. Uh, yes, but something tells me when that does come out that That I probably shouldn't play it at at church Really early really soon like this year anything like that.

Oh my goodness. Look at that. Okay, well that you know, that's that that's just improper you can't you can't do stuff like that. Anyways. So we've been talking about this a lot and So basically if you all have questions and I've we've not been taking calls when I've done the well I'll take that back.

We took one call and So today would be your opportunity if there are just Zillions and zillions of questions as to where in the world these folks coming from how they handle certain things I can't guarantee that I can role-play their position on every single issue.

But if you would like to participate in the program today eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one. This is your opportunity to so do and We can you know first entertain those questions and issues that that come up in regards to Shall we call it ultra liberalism the far left?

I you know, I I would put I think I could put Marcus Borg in the ultra liberalism category at least somewhat in that I Don't know it's I Don't know that you can even I mean, where do you where do you put that word?

How far do you define it if you don't believe in the resurrection and and please realize I am fully completely well aware of the fact that These individuals Almost all these individuals say they believe in the resurrection, but they completely redefine it to the point where it no longer means anything even close to what historic Christianity has always said it means and when you still have the idea of Jesus's body in the grave a Grave or being eaten by dogs or whatever?

That's not resurrection. That's I don't care what you say about I don't care how to redefine it. That's not resurrection saying well, you know, they continue to experience Jesus's presence in their lives.

Well, what's that supposed to mean? You know, I mean there are there are people who live in Chicago That continue to experience Michael Jordan's presence in their lives as well every time the Bulls lose.

And that's you know, and for some of them, that's very very real. You know. It's it's very very important for them and it may change their lives and blah blah blah blah blah. And that's not what the Apostles were talking about.

That's That's not the same thing. I'm sorry and to say that well, you know, he started this program the kingdom of God and so His followers continued his program which is sort of odd because Those who say that immediately then have to say they altered that program and they altered the perspective and they they actually didn't start doing things they started creating a hierarchy and and you're not supposed to have a Hierarchy and so I guess when the Apostles are going around establishing elders and stuff like that that was against Jesus's Wishes and all the rest of stuff but but their idea is, you know as long as you got together in in someone's back room with four or five people and You you had a common meal and You didn't have a hierarchy and nobody was better than anybody else radically egalitarianism.

That's the kingdom of God. And so Jesus resurrected. In fact, I should I should mention this I should go ahead and do this while the the calls are flowing in here. There was a Citation it was very interesting.

Let me see here I recall this from I Was listening as I mentioned primarily to these Chautauqua messages not sermons, but speeches and I remember very clearly John Dominic Crossan making a statement and What did I do with it here.

That there it is. Okay, and I I mentioned in channel In our in our chat channel I remember him saying something along these lines and I I had to paraphrase it because I was gonna have to be looking through the Sound files and and when you have I don't know how many sound files I have now of these gentlemen presenting their viewpoints but You know It can take some time to find it and I was just sort of lamenting.

Given that I was having a really lousy day yesterday having to invest time looking for that so I left and while I was gone, uh I get this phone call and someone in the channel who is a librarian by the way had tracked down a written quote from Crossan that is very much like What he said in a different context which I found interesting that obvious that means this is a very.

This is a part of his notes. This is a part of his presentation. He's using a regular basis. And so Using his own I guess using his own his own standards since it's been repeated twice and that really means it's representative of him.

But that refers back to his viewpoints of other things anyhow. Here is the quote as he spoke it at the Chautauqua lectures. Here's here's what he says. Paul says that no need to back up a thing as soon as you start talking about someone like John Dominic Cross is saying Jesus body was eaten by dogs and You start hearing Marcus Borg saying well nothing spectacular unusual happened to the corpse of Jesus.

He was absorbed into God, you know, you know sort of the force type thing. As soon as you hear that the first response of the vast majority of evangelicals conservative Christians is but Paul said if Christ be not raised and our faith is in vain and.

So here is how dr. Crossan responds to that Paul says if there is Let me get this right. Paul says if there is no resurrection. Vain is our preaching vain is your faith, right? Now reverse it if your faith is vain.

That is if it is not visibly showing a change in the world. Then our preaching is vain. That it is not about showing a change in the world. Then we would have to say that Christ is not risen. We could say if we wanted to that Christ is exalted that Christ is with God.

But we cannot say that Christ is risen unless we can show that the world has been changed by the presence of the risen Christ. We cannot say it. We should not say it. We have not the right to say it. That's what he said and then What our librarian lady found?

From the The resurrection of Jesus in his Jewish context invited opening lecture New Testament Society of South Africa and Pachast Room, South Africa. Tuesday, April 9th 2002 the following third. Paul says the first Corinthians 15 14 that if Christ has not been raised and our Proclamation has been in vain and your faith has been in vain.

True, of course. But then so is its reversal if our faith has been in vain. That is if it is not visibly and publicly making the world more divinely just then Christian proclamation has been in vain. That is.

It is not about me if if it hmm. That's that's not quoted correctly. That is if it is not about making the world more divinely just Christ has not been raised. That is as the start of the general resurrection and apocalyptic consummation exalted.

Maybe as in Psalm 2, but certainly not raised and I remember listening the first time I heard that I Don't know if your brain works the same way that the mind does but when I'm listening to something while exercising I remember I listened to all the Auburn Avenue Presbyterian Church conference lectures from that first big year that caused the big explosion.

I listened to them while climbing Squaw Peak here in Phoenix and I can still remember exactly where on the trail up to the top of Squaw Peak I was when Certain people would say certain things and it would whether I was going up or whether I was going down.

All the rest that stuff same thing with these lectures. For some odd reason I remember where I was out on the Sun Valley Parkway. When he said this, you know how fast I was going which direction I was going blah blah blah blah.

It's really odd how the mind works along those lines and I remember him saying this. I remember thinking to myself well You know, the first thought crossed my mind is that's not grammatically correct.

In other words, you can't just reverse a Statement like that and say that this is these two phrases are equal. That's that's not that's not what Paul was saying in any way shape or form and. Then I started thinking about what kind of illustrations can you use to demonstrate?

This isn't true and the one I came up with was We are hunting Osama bin Laden and since since what took place the night on 9-eleven. We are hunting Osama bin Laden. Reverse it and say if we are not hunting Osama bin Laden then 9-eleven didn't take place.

No, 9-eleven took place. It's it's a reality. That's all there is to it and to reverse it like that makes the resurrection of Christ not the historical event that 9-eleven was. Not something that actually happened in history and that that of course is exactly where these guys are coming from it.

It isn't something that happened in history. It's not something that took place in time. There was no incarnation and there was no divine Son of God. There was no unique experience at that point in time.

That's what we need to understand that they are in fact saying to us and As I said, I don't know that you can put someone like a Marcus Borg even in the realm of liberalism. Because at least liberals still attempted to maintain some level of Semblance of orthodoxy and I know they do too because they come up with all sorts of new definitions for all the creedal statements.

But what they mean by them is so far removed from what anybody Had ever said that it's it's playing word games. It really is playing word games and and there's just there's no two ways around it. So Anyhow, that's that's all gonna be coming up those of you who are going to be going to the conference and debate this coming weekend.

I look forward to meeting you those of you in channel, please. Don't do what syzygous did to me once his name is actually Brock but he he comes up to me and I was I was at John MacArthur's Church and I just was I just about to speak or had just spoken.

I think I had just spoken in Phil Johnson's Sunday school class and of course his Sunday school class is about seven times larger than my church and anyway this fella comes up to I've never met him and He says I'm the fellow from your chat channel whose Nick is a hop-box legomena.

Now. I'm picking stuff up I'm I've got to catch up with someone who's already ahead of me and Someone's looking at me going. My Nick is a hop-box legomena. Sorry didn't ring didn't click a hop-box legomena.

For those of you are wondering is a is a term that appears one time and in the text of the Bible or normally. It's a Greek term. So it's occurs one time in the canon of the of the New Testament and. So I had no idea who in the world I was shaking hands with and just sort of hi bye.

Boy, that's weird. And then I don't know how many how long it was later. Someone says hey, did you meet Sisyphus? No. Well, he said he said hi to you. And then I was like, oh, you know, so those of you who are in channel who have your own Knicks when you come up to me at least try to use your neck before your name something because.

Especially if if we're meeting on Saturday evening late afternoon something like that. My mind's gonna really be focused on other things at that particular point in time. So, please Please be aware of that and I'm looking forward I'm looking forward to meeting you but I will be significantly less stressed out after the debate.

But only slightly because it's actually this is sort of like a double header you you you do the first seven innings and then you've got the last two innings on the on the ship basically, so that's how that's gonna that's gonna work, but anyhow.

That's what's coming up this weekend. And once again, we've already already covered the ground as far as the fact that we certainly desire the Lord to bless this time and we had a little prayer meeting amongst some of the staff here last night and and This is a major major major undertaking so pray that the Lord will undertake and it'll all it'll all work out eight seven seven seven five three three three four one I I see a line lit up, but it doesn't look like it's someone who's calling in for that.

It's calling him something else. So Yeah, yeah, that's how we'll do it. Hi, I'm the guy in channel whose nickname features letters from the alphabet and a number invented by the Mayans. That'll That'll definitely help me remember I'm gonna Dane that with a response.

I was searching for a sound file and generally right before we we hit the theme music isn't a good time to be stopping the music and trying to Cue stuff up, but some of you may recall a number of moons ago that we had made reference to Dave Hunt's new book little book on Calvinism and I mentioned just in passing that We were trying there was a there's a group back in let's just call it the Midwest trying to arrange a debate and They're doing it for as part of a high school class and I guess the past two years They've had a creation evolution debate and and according to fellows putting together.

They've had like 800 people Show up for this debate at a high school and That's that's that's pretty good. That's a lot of work believe me, that's a lot of work and so this year the students said they want to have a debate on Calvinism and Arminianism and I don't get the feeling that it's like a Calvinist school or something like that.

It's just obviously a Divisive issue. It's a it's an issue where there's two Strong sides and people on both sides have strong things to say and So they the first thing I heard about this Was a fellow trying to get hold of me saying would you be willing to debate Norman Geisler?

Well, you know, that's like back in 94 when the Roman Catholic attorney called me and said would you be willing to debate Scott Hahn? Yeah, I can do that. And so we talk and he's all excited about that and and then the next day he has to call me and and disinvite me because Scott Hahn had said if whites there I'm not so that was the end of that and So I get hold of this guy and I go now I Would be more than happy to debate Norman Geisler on the doctrines of grace.

But I just have the sneaking suspicion that you haven't quite gotten that commitment from him yet. Am I am I right about that and of course the answer came back, well, yeah well, we were just about to contact him and I'm like Well, let me tell you about the process that you're about to start going through.

And it has been a process this poor fellow could probably write a book now. Who has he contacted. Well, I mentioned to you that they were that they were contacting Dave Hunt and of course Dave Hunt's Dave Hunt's response is the same all the time now and that is I've said everything I need to say about Calvinism if You want to know if you want to hear James White's and I debate it's it's we have the radio program and they do make that radio program available, which is amazing me when you think about and You can read the book.

Of course, he keeps putting books out on Calvinism, but he won't defend it. So we all know exactly why Dave Hunt does what Dave Hunt's doing. He knows he would not have a ghost of a chance in that debate.

But he just figures that our following is so small even though of course he accuses. He accuses Calvinists of controlling, you know, the Christian media and the Christian bookstores and all the rest of stuff he knows that our our following is is so small that he can get away with that and And not have to really explain it all that often.

So he declined again which is like I said not unusual and Then they start contacting all sorts of folks and one of the folks that they contact is dr. Ergun Kainer now, dr. Kainer is At Liberty University and you know Liberty is very strongly anti-calvinistic.

Jerry Falwell has has sort of added that to his his retinue of things we mentioned in fact played a little clip from Falwell at the Southern Baptist Convention the the preachers conference before him and So they are very very opposed to Calvinism you would think if a University is opposed to Calvinism that they would be willing to You know discuss the issue and in a scholarly fashion maybe even host a debate on their on their campus but of course, that's not the case and I had I Someone had already been in contact with dr. Kainer about doing a debate on the subject initially he had said yes, and then he sort of went went silent and I had written to him as well and I wasn't getting much in the way of response and so the folks at the high school contacted him and They get back this email.

That you know, it's the same old thing. You can always tell when someone really I'm just gonna be very blunt here is Completely clueless about what they're talking about in a particular area in this particular area being Calvinism when they say well Well, I'm not I'm not an Arminian.

I'm just a biblicist and You know, thank you very much you know when they they they try to play the the name-game stuff and But what was amazing to me was What he then said he said I I could bring up the specific here, but I'm paraphrasing it.

I I do not hold to the Was it damnable. Now I should look it up now. That's not bring it up but he identified the concept of total depravity in particular redemption as as cultic beliefs totally outside of the realm of orthodoxy and.

So when I saw that I I was like, hmm. So I finally wrote to him and I said, you know, I quoted him directly and I'm like, you know. How about those of us who happen to teach in the same schools you do.

Who believe these things and who are willing to defend these things? Isn't it time for you to you know, step forward and and debate this issue? And of course, I never got a response back so many of these folks just simply.

They they they want a monologue. They do not want a dialogue. They just want to be able to blast away and have absolutely no responsibility for what they say at all and. So that's that's what ended up happening so the list I want one.

One guy that was sick that they He talked to Tim LaHaye. Now that would have been fun. Wouldn't that been fun? I think that would have been fun. I would have I would have enjoyed debating Tim LaHaye. I Wonder how many times the rapture would come up.

I Think by the end of the debate he would have been hoping for the rapture but You know predicting it and oh by the way, I forgot to mention this, please you can take a deep breath. I am NOT gonna be calling for the assassination of any national leaders on the program today.

Okay? Everyone can relax not gonna do I'm not gonna do it. Because I ain't stupid. And you know people yeah. Well, no, he's not a leader of the world. He's the leader of a nation. That's why that's what makes him a national leaders.

Silly it's a little tiny nation too, but maybe a little tiny guy, but it doesn't matter. It was still stupid. Yeah, yeah another nation not our own. Thanks appreciate that. Wow master of context there.

There you go. Anyway. Getting back to Tim LaHaye. He didn't want to do it. I'm not sure. I don't remember why but he had a list of other people and one of the folks Who he suggested? Funny, I Really think that all the people who arranged debate should get together write a book about it because it's really entertaining.

Chris Arnzen could literally write a book about all stuff He's gone through and arranging the great debates on Long Island and all the stuff that's happened and the weird things and the weird people. It would be sort of funny, but anyhow one of the folks that was suggested writes back and says Actually, I've read James White's the Potter's Freedom and agree with almost everything in it.

So it wouldn't be much of a debate. So obviously Tim LaHaye thinks this guy's on his side. But actually this guy's not on his side and I haven't told Tim LaHaye that and that's why I didn't mention a name there.

Because we don't get anybody in trouble who doesn't need to be in trouble. But anyhow, that was sort of funny. And finally what happened was all of this was taking place and I was started to mention the the Why I am NOT a five-point Calvinist DVD that I had Recorded that's not a DVD.

Is it? No. Yes. Yes. It is a DVD. That's right. Never mind. I still recorded the The audio from it and we had played some some sections here on the dividing line. And so I said well and the guy's starting to pull his hair out I mean he's been rejected by you know entire seminaries worth of people and he's getting he's getting a little tired of it and All these people who are more than happy to blast Calvinists and how unbiblical they are and how ridiculous it is and anybody who can just read that print on our page Knows that Calvinism is stupid, but no, I'm not gonna debate anyone who can defend Calvinism.

No not gonna do that and so anyway, I Said well, there is this guy, you know, and I think this is his email address and He's put out this, you know, he speaks at home homeschooling conventions all over the place.

So Maybe I don't know. Well, what I eventually ended up happening is I get an email back and he's not willing to do it but he has an attorney in his congregation who is an attorney. It's congregation and even says he also has read Dave Hunt's book well Whoo-hoo.

All righty, then I Wrote back and said you started might want to suggest that they read the other books that came along too and So, I guess that's what we're gonna work out. I don't know. I would rather have debated the pastor, but you know You Know Tim Staples would be fun.

We're trying to get Tim Staples. It's this is in the channel in case any of you are wondering we're trying to get Tim Staples to debate on Long Island. Because he's with Catholic answers now and I would he's putting out a ton of stuff on Mary.

He's putting out a DVD set and he's putting out a book and he's he's all this. You know, I don't know how many CDs and all this stuff on Mary I would think obviously if you're cranking out a book DVD set CDs, you know, you've got all these talks that you do in churches on one subject that.

Isn't it somewhat of a no-brainer? That if you're an apologist that that might be a good subject to debate. I mean, it's not like you say Well, give me two years and I'll say the subject hopefully if you're putting books out on it, you've already done that right and So, I mean how many times have you all heard me doing talks debates on The subjects of books that I've just put out.

It's it's it's just. It's obvious. It's just how it's done. So we're trying to get Tim Staples to to debate the Marian Doctrines on on Long Island because I think that would be it's been this would be the 11th year.

That was the first year it was. You know, we did four subjects in one debate. We need to be more focused than we were in that first one. It'd be great, but we haven't gotten a positive response on that quite yet and I hope that hope it will and Tim Staples would be a really interesting person to debate on.

Have me defend Calvinism against him because let me tell you something as a former assemblies of God youth pastor I've I've heard his I've heard his viewpoints expressed a few times and to call them downright entertaining is Is is is hard to hard to avoid there's no two ways about it.

Well boy, I don't know if we're gonna have enough time in the next half of the program to get to all these these phone calls and You know, I keep keep hitting these these buttons here and there's no there's nobody there.

Hey, I Guess that's what happens when you stop taking calls for a while. You just sort of Kill the interest in doing that, but I'm sure during the break here that the the phone lines will explode at eight seven seven Seven five three three three four one.

We're gonna take a break be right back.

Is the Bible True? and the Crossan Resurrection Reversal

It's all In a manufactured grace. Some religious place by weeping hard on your face.

Is the Bible true. Never before in history has the authority and inspiration of the Holy Scriptures been so viciously attacked by those outside the pale of Orthodoxy and within the walls of traditional evangelicalism itself.

Join us August 27th 2005 at the Sea-Tac Marriott for an historic debate between evangelical Christian apologist. Dr James R. White and world-renowned Jesus seminar co-founder and Bible skeptic. Dr John Dominic Rosson as they debate a topic which every Christian should be concerned about.

Is the Bible true. Seating and tickets are limited. So call today 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 or visit a o m i n dot org to reserve your seat today. That's 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 to be a part of this historic event That will illuminate the fault lines of faith between conservative and liberal Christians alike.

Roman Catholicism, Evangelical Cooperation, and James White's Book on the Catholic Controversy

More than any time in the past Roman Catholics and evangelicals are working together. They are standing shoulder-to-shoulder against social evils they are joining across denominational boundaries in renewal movements and.

Many evangelicals are finding the history tradition and grandeur of the Roman Catholic Church appealing. This newfound rapport has caused many evangelical leaders and laypeople to question the age-old disagreements that have divided Protestants and Catholics.

Aren't we all saying the same thing in a different language? James White's book the Roman Catholic controversy is an absorbing look at current views of tradition in Scripture the papacy the mass purgatorian indulgences and Marian doctrine.

James White points out the crucial differences that remain regarding the Christian life and the heart of the gospel itself. They cannot be ignored.

Order your copy of the Roman Catholic controversy by going to our website at a omen org. I.

Regeneration, Faith, and the Ordo Salutis

Look down there at those phone lines and I my heart is truly warmed. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes. Yes, indeed. I 7 7 7 5 3 3 4 1. I don't remember exactly where we were. And listening to dr. Davis. So we're just gonna start jump into things here I I thought I had made note somewhere in in all of my I had this cool program called sticky note if you're looking for something to you know, jot stuff down in.

Sticky note is really neat. But unfortunately, I'm so busy these days. I have numerous sticky notes and So so unfortunately, I just keep going from sticky note the sticky note going Where did where did that go it was in here somewhere and Unfortunately, I can't find a number.

So I'm just gonna sort of jump in some place and if I go, oh, yeah I remember that that's the wonderful thing about technology is we can just you know, skip past that. So let's let's listen to dr. Davis here all ability of will to any Spiritual good accompanying salvation that's close.

So it's almost like the Lord has to save you before he saves you and it's almost like you're getting saved twice at the time almost at the same time, okay, here we go. Regenerated or born again, which the man himself has nothing at all to do with.

The way a Calvinist will often introduce his doctrine is by asking Which do you think comes first faith or regeneration? When people answer faith, then the Calvinist will say something like this. But mankind is totally dead in trespasses and sins.

How can a dead man believe? And then they point out that what they believe that you have to be regenerated first. Then you trust Christ by faith. So it's almost like the Lord has to save you before he saves you and it's almost like you're getting saved twice.

At the time almost the same time. Just quick brief response to that. Once again the use of the term saved and salvation in Numerous different ways within the same context. It's like you're getting saved.

Twice no, you're being regenerated. We're talking about an ordo salutis here. This is this is logical priority and There's debates about the role of temporal priority, but the point is what leads to what what is the foundation of what and So often Dave Hunt and and I if those of you haven't heard Dr. Davis before he Holds up Dave Hunt's book.

So like I said, this is what happens when a guy who can speak Well, doctor this gentleman can speak so much better than Dave Hunt can. He can cram so much more information into into a period of time than Dave Hunt can.

This I'm funny. So here's what happens when you take Dave Hunt's really really really really really bad information and Say it really fast. In essence that's that's it and it's easier to listen to him that is listen to Dave.

Let's put that way you can you can really cover a lot more ground a whole lot faster. So what we see there is a is a failure to recognize more specific utilization of terminology and just throw saved out as if it's always.

The same thing as sanctification or justification or in this case regeneration, etc, etc. Calvinism is also referred to as Reformed theology because of its development primarily by John Calvin during the time of the Reformation.

Two major Conferences took place in the 1600s which clearly stated the five points of Calvinism. The first was the Synod of Dort a six month long conference held in 1618 beginning in November that year continuing in to 1619 in the country of the Netherlands.

The Synod of Dort was convened by the state of the Netherlands, which was seeking religious unity among its citizens. After the Synod of Dort more than 200 ministers who could not agree with the points of Calvinism were removed from their pulpits and many of them were exiled from the country.

A Similar gathering was held in Westminster, England in 1643 the Westminster Assembly was also convened by the state of England and produced the famous Westminster Confession of Faith. Which has been called quote the most systematically complete statement of Calvinism ever devised.

The Westminster Confession of Faith declares about this first point total depravity. Quote. Our first parents became dead in sin and wholly defiled in all the faculties and parts of soul and body. Wholly inclined to all evil man by his fall into a state of sin hath wholly lost all Ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation being altogether averse from that good.

That I like when they quote this but then do they remember it when they start to criticize it because it's very clear. It's very balanced. It's not saying that man's will has been destroyed. It's not saying that his will is not capable of acting.

It has to do with the will. Doing that which is pleasing before God and isn't that what Romans 8 is all about? Romans 8 7 2 8 it is we'll see if that sticks and dead to sin is not able by his own strength.

To convert himself or to prepare himself there unto. It's important to understand that once you believe One of these points you are likely to believe them all that isn't that interesting. At least there's some consistency here, and he's gonna.

You know he's gonna end up taking sadly the same track on Perseverance of the Saints toward the end, but at least there's a recognition if you believe this one. It does lead to this one, so I reject that I you know so here You have an assertion man's will is is not enslaved to sin.

He's not totally dead you catch totally dead. What is totally dead mean anyway? All that stuff is right there. It's on the surface. You can hear the gears going around here all five points of Calvinism beginning with this one total depravity or total inability of man to respond to God at all.

Tend to interlock with each other and tend to either stand or fall all together. There are some who believe four out of the five points I'll point out to you the one point that some do not believe but those people are often referred to as other by other Calvinist as being Inconsistent the you in tulip stands for Unconditional election, you know we should say one thing we've listened to a lot of preachers on this program over the course the last couple years defining the tulip and He's doing better than most of them.

Did let's at least go that far right. I mean most of them aren't even you know Westminster quoting Westminster it ends up being Westminster. You know that kind of stuff. At least there's we're on a little better plane here.

I got a got to be appreciative of that meaning that God elects some to go to heaven without any Conditions being met on their part. They are the elect they are chosen Unconditionally elected unconditionally by God to go to heaven.

They will be saved regardless of What anyone does or doesn't do. Everyone else, but the elect are allowed to go to hell, and there's nothing anybody can do about it. God could save all but he chooses not to do so okay I have to take back part of what I just said that's hunt showing through there big time.