May 4, 2004

Broadcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is The Dividing Line.

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll free across the

United States. It's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is

James White. And good morning. Welcome to The Dividing Line.

My name is James White and I feel fine. I just don't sound overly good.

About an hour into my class last evening, five hours worth of teaching, all of a sudden

I started sounding like Kermit the Frog and lo and behold, start listening to the radio this morning and there is this stuff going around all over the place.

And then I start thinking back and, oh yeah, my daughter had something and my wife had something.

And so I guess it's time, it's probably actually a grand governmental conspiracy, but I didn't see any black helicopters flying over, so that's just sort of how it works.

Anyway, just before we get started today, I mentioned last

Thursday we were going to try to get hold of Scott Klusendorf to be on the program today. We were unable to get together.

He's traveling all over the place and I know exactly how that works. I can't tell you how many times

I've gotten some kind of a phone call as I'm leaving an airport someplace and somebody wants to do

X, Y, or Z and, you know, with everything else you've got going on, you don't even remember to return the phone call from the message.

And, you know, 28 days later, the system notifies you about this message that you saved. And so you just sort of go from there.

So that's how it is. So we will be live today and, in fact, we are live with our high humidity

East Coast representative. Michael Fallon joins me this morning for just a few moments.

I understand that we need to inform our adoring public of some issues regarding the upcoming debate and conference in L .A.

How are you doing today, Mike? Good afternoon, Dr. White. How are you? I'm actually doing just fine. I just sound terrible, but other than that,

I'm doing just fine. Well, this sounds like the Dr. White that was visiting me in Florida this past winter.

Oh? A little bit under the weather, I recall. Well, yeah, once we got on the ship, but...

Actually, it sounds like you're doing one of those midnight programs like Fishing Radio. Yeah, well, you know, I used to play those on KWAO and Sun City.

We had, what was it, Night Watch? Was that what it was called? And, you know, you'd have this guy that would talk like this, and he would talk about how wonderful the

Lord is. And I could do that now, but I can't do it normally, so I better not get a job doing that.

So what's going on with the conference? Well, Mr. Pierce and I just put up a few changes on the website.

A number of people have been emailing me and calling me for information about the conference that we're going to be having coming up.

And this year, we're going to be doing the 2004 National Conference for Alpha and Omega Ministries. It's going to be a two -day event,

November 5th and 6th. Day number one, starting at 7 p .m., is really a very important and historical time.

If you're followers of the ministry here at Alpha and Omega Ministries and have been reading Dr. White's books, you're very concerned about the things of God, about the truth of justification by grace alone, through faith alone,

Christ alone, then certainly this is something that you want to make sure that you're at. If you're familiar at all about New Perspectivism or Auburnism and some of the issues surrounding these sorts of new theological ideas, certainly one of the most vocal proponents of some of the tenets of Auburnism, I don't want to say all of them, but the majority of tenets of Auburnism is

Douglas Wilson. And it was our desire to try to bring Doug and Jim together.

And if you find the desire to call me right now, that would be a very good idea. That sounded very pretty.

You can PM me in Merck if you don't mind. But right now, we have an opportunity to have really the first,

I believe, has there been a debate on Auburnism? No, there have been, you know,

Knox Seminary has done a colloquium and things like that, but it was behind closed doors resulting in a book.

So, as far as an actual debate, it's all been done, to my knowledge so far, in writing, not in person.

Well, this will be the first, I guess, formal debate then in public of some of the issues surrounding

Auburnism. And certainly, the issues that will be discussed, and if you see kind of our first title,

Our Roman Catholics, Part of the Covenant People, is a title. But more specifically, what's going to be discussed is does

Trinitarian baptism make one a member of the new covenant? And this is really the crux of the entire issue and what will be pretty importantly debated between Doug and James.

This is something you really don't want to miss. And also, some of the conclusions that Doug comes to are quite different than, let's say, what some of our

Reformed Presbyterian brothers, who we very much love and call them brothers and sisters in Christ. His conclusions are quite a bit different.

So this is an opportunity to come, be a part of this event, to be able to ask some questions at the end and so forth.

Hopefully, James will have his voice back by then. But then the next day, we have our national conference.

And this will be at the Sheraton LAX. So let's say that if you're flying in another town, let's say you can get a cheap flight from San Diego, or if you want to drive up, you want to fly from Phoenix or from Texas or someplace else.

Those flights are actually pretty cheap if you're coming from Oregon, Seattle, wherever. And even myself from Tampa, I can get a flight for about $170 to LA.

You come, stay at the LAX Sheraton there. The next day, we're going to be having a conference, a full -day conference on the new challenges to justification.

Some of our speakers will be Philip Johnson, who is affiliated with Grace to You. You might know him from the

Spurgeon Archive and from the Hall of Church History. David King, Skyman from Chat Channel, and author of Holy Scripture, our pillar and foundation of truth.

Steve Camp. Steve Camp is, of course, well -known to all of us in the Reformed circles as far as his great music that he's produced over the past few years.

And is right now, I believe, celebrating his sixth anniversary of the 107th thesis, if I'm not mistaken.

And he's going to sing his entire presentation. Well, I wouldn't blame him. He actually does a great job doing that sort of thing.

In Gregorian chant. Well, yeah. Actually, that'll be you and I. Then Eric Spenson, actually from New Testament Research Ministries, will be sharing with us.

And Dr. White at the end. We're probably going to let him sleep in a little bit. He usually works himself up quite a bit during the debate, so let him sleep in a little bit, come up and be fresh.

But we are going to hit a lot of the issues to do with justification, not just New Perspectivism, but many of the other issues with Roman Catholicism and others that really need to be discussed.

And we're going to be sending out a lot of flyers to the area seminaries and colleges that are in the L .A. area and California area and trying to bring them in and really get folks involved in learning about some of the answers that we have towards some of our new challenges.

Not only that, but also for the crews. Folks, if you go on the cruise, all this is free for you.

You don't have to worry about admission prices into the debate or the conference that's taken care of.

Our staff will then be going on a seven -day cruise, and you don't want to miss it. It's just absolutely fantastic.

It'll be Jim's chance to unwind and dress down, if you will, a little bit. And really, this is a great opportunity for you to be able to come in a teaching environment with all these folks, in a discussion environment as well, like we had at night, where we can sit around and discuss some things that maybe are troubling you or some touchy issues, and so forth, theologically, that folks have always been concerned about but always afraid to ask in other situations.

It's a good time to do it, because I think we handle all of the issues that we discussed last time, except for the gospel to start, with a lot of praise.

Just one caveat there. But we really would encourage all you folks, we've made the price so low and so available to you folks.

We really hope you take advantage of that. I also want to add this. If you do come and stay at the

LAX Sheraton for two days, you'll get the entire conference and debate for free.

And that's double occupancy per room. So if that's a deal you just can't beat. We're trying to make this an event that all the folks that have been following the ministry can come and be a part of, rub shoulders with some of the folks that you've always heard on the dividing line, and also get a chance to meet

Dr. White. And Mike, you might want to also mention that the special rate that we've got with the

Sheraton there, if folks need to come in a day early, or be able to stay over, say,

Sunday night, they're going to be able to get that rate there as well for those extra days.

I believe, what, Thursday night through Sunday night we're able to have those rates? Yes, Zucchini. If you come in on Thursday, or Wednesday, or a shoulder day afterwards, let's say that you would like to stay

Sunday as well, you can still get that same rate. Let's say that you want to stay over a day and go to John MacArthur's church the next day.

You can still get the same rate of $89 per night. However, you have to then tithe to John MacArthur's church.

Or I guess we can just hand that to you. Tithe to MacArthur? I think he wrote a book about that.

So anyway, that's what's going on. Folks, I really hope you take advantage of that.

And we really hope to see you there. I know that Sola Scriptura will be coming up about then, right? Yes, it comes out in October.

So we're all looking forward to that. And the Ecclesiology book comes out in July. Yes, sir.

Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, they moved it up. Fantastic. Well, James, I hope you feel better.

I feel fine, just don't have much of a voice. Okay, well I'll look forward to hearing the rest of the program.

And I'll turn it back to you, sir. Okay, thanks a lot. Thank you. Thanks, Mike. And so that information is available on the website.

We've had a lot of folks asking questions about that. And we needed to get that taken care of because it's easier to do it this way since a lot of our folks listen to the program.

That is to answer each one over and over and over again. I was just going to mention on Douglas Wilson's blog,

I don't know who this is aimed at, to be perfectly honest with you, but yesterday I read on his blog site, if I may speak in a

Hebraic mode for just a moment, for two things I give thanks, and for three I am extremely grateful. First, I am very thankful for the godly character of my wife and family.

Second, I am grateful for the integrity of my friends and co -laborers in the gospel. And of course, I can echo all of that.

But third, after careful consideration of the subject, I have to say that I am profoundly grateful for the caliber of my enemies.

And I can second that one as well. I think I can hear all of that in a way that I can accept and go, yep,

I fully understand exactly what you're saying there. Just not sure who the definitions of all those things would be.

As far as the application goes, the blog is fairly new and of course it's humorous.

It's called Blog and Mayblog. And I first saw that,

I didn't get it. And then the old premillennialist in me kicked in and I went, oh, oh, yes, that's

Gog and Maygog. Okay, I'll figure it out. It was sort of funny.

But anyway, I'm forwarding over. I multitask while we're on here. I'm forwarding over a smaller picture that we can put on our main site so we're not kicking out a 1 .6

megabyte graphic every time somebody hits our site and we end up owing our

ISP $47 ,000 this month or some outrageous thing like that. So I'm sort of multitasking here and that's okay.

877 -753 -3341. A couple things that I wanted to mention.

There was some very interesting things on the blogs.

Last week I mentioned, was it last? Yeah, it had to have been last week.

I sort of mentioned at the beginning of one of the programs that the American Association of Christian Counselors was having a

Breaking Free Council Fest 2004. This was taking place at David Jeremiah's church and that one of the speakers was

T .D. Jakes. And I just sort of mentioned this in passing. This morning someone sent me an update and if I go to the same webpage

I went to just last week, there used to be 10 speakers, special Saturday speakers listed.

Now there are nine and Mr. Jakes is missing. And so I am assuming that either the

American Association of Christian Counselors or David Jeremiah, one of the two.

So we have a call on that very issue. Is that what you're indicating to me?

I was just going to mention this because someone had sent it to me. Actually it was Tim Oliver over in California that sent me the email this morning that mentioned that he's no longer there.

He has an update on it. Okay, well let's just go with that since that's what I was going to be mentioning anyways. Let's talk with Mike in Florida.

Hi Mike. Hey Dr. White, how are you? I'm doing pretty good. Excellent. Hey look, I got your book The God Who Justifies not too long ago and a total thumbs up on that work.

I don't know how long it took you to put that thing together but I'll tell you that is a major piece. It was one of the hardest books

I've ever written not because of the subject but because it used to be easy to write books because that's all you were doing.

And now you're doing so many different things that it's very hard to get that feeling of consistency and flow.

And Michael Fallon who's also in Florida who was just on will tell you that they tried to get me off the boat.

I forget which cruise it was we were on but I was sitting in my cabin tapping away on that very book.

That's good. Anyway, so what's going on with the TD Jake situation? Well, I called you a couple weeks ago and got some info from you pertaining to I guess there was an old defaulting line program which you had addressed to my attention.

Did you track that down? I did, thank you very much. Okay, good. What happened was I did bring it to the attention of my pastor.

And needless to say he did listen to it and we had about a three day discussion on it. And well, things didn't go over so well at first.

Yeah. And so I had further discussions with him on that point. And one of the things that I wanted to actually was brought to my attention from my pastor was how do

I know TD Jake was not taken out of context regarding the clips that were aired?

I said, well, I can see you're concerned about that. I think it's legitimate. So the gist of the whole thing was

I said, well, let me see if anybody at the A &O has any way of finding out when that program was aired with TD Jake's and see if they have the entire clip of that sermon available.

So that's pretty much where I'm at with it. He did think some things were taken out of context.

Well, if you've ever listened to a TD Jake sermon I'm not really certain that you can establish a context. I was watching him just briefly last night.

And you get to a certain point in his style and it really becomes random emotional outbursts because everybody's staying on their feet and they're weeping and they're crying and so on and so forth.

But to my recollection, I did not do that program. I've heard it, but I didn't do that program.

My recollection is that I think that entire program is available and I think it was given to the folks at CRI at one point because they frequently will take clips and play things like that.

And so I think it would be possible to get the information and Eddie Dalcour is the gentleman who was on the program and my assumption is he would still have that tape.

And so I'm trying to remember Department of Christian Defense Google Department of Christian Defense grab hold of Eddie's email off of that and see if he could give you the entirety of the date and the tape itself because I have to ask a question why would we want to do that?

I mean if there was something in the context that somehow ameliorated this why would we that's just not what we do.

I suppose if we had a track record of constantly doing things where you use ellipses and draw things together from 47 different pages that are separated from one another that I could understand that but we don't have any reason to do that.

I did mention that to him I said you know A &O Ministries is a pretty solid ministry these guys obviously know that obviously they don't want to get involved in a flum flam lest of course they get themselves in trouble.

Obviously they don't purposely set out to misrepresent people I have a lot of Dr.

White's books and I said look the guy is totally solid. Matter of fact I've turned him on to your

Forgotten Trinity book which I suggested to him that of course he do some more reading on the subject with.

As a matter of fact you guys, actually Simon Escobedo and Eddie did a great job. They went very much into detail on it and again the only reason to do that we don't get anything from doing that it's very very much the kind of thing that keeps you a nice small ministry and in fact

I just brought up ChristianDefense .org is Eddie's website if you want to jot that down.

He's done a pretty good job I can tell he's dedicated a lot of time to the subject.

He does spend a lot of time on it and he just recorded that program straight off the air.

He wasn't looking for anything he was just recording it and the thing was they played multiple minutes it's not like it was 20 seconds it's one thing to just take one little clip and then they go on and talk about all sorts of other things but that's not what they did.

The dividing line where Simon and Eddie had been with each other you guys did a far greater job than CRI did.

It was far more probing. Well that's because Simon and Eddie tend to be that way.

Hey, thumbs up on that one. I hope that helps you get to a point where if someone doesn't want to believe that's what

Jakes is about they're going to find a way not to believe that's what Jakes is about and I don't know why that would be but you just put the information out there and basically the fact is that what we're dealing with in much of evangelicalism today is a real downgrade in the central doctrines of the faith and their relevance and you can see this in the preaching if you were to somehow if there was some database of the substance of all the sermons preached in evangelical churches however in the world you define that this coming

Lord's Day I think you would find that those that actually address the doctrine of the Trinity and identify it as a definitional doctrine would be in the .01

range of application and so that's what we're up against.

Hey, just a quick finishing thought there's a young pastor in this area here in Fort Myers, Florida who is the grandson of the former general superintendent of UPCI Nathaniel Ershin III I actually met with him here personally last year a buddy of myself and he's a young pastor and he's gaining quite a bit of prominence in this area because he's highly influential and he's used the

UPCI to his advantage basically to get his name out there and anyway, I had emailed him here because he's local and I asked him what he knew about Mr.

T .D. Jakes he is familiar with him one thing he did mention was how T .D. Jakes dances around one is in Trinitarian terms

I was trying to appeal to both parties but not yet taking a firm stand one way or the other to avoid being divisive and that's the biggest problem for me

I would much more respect a man who would just simply come straight out and say this is my belief and I am passionate about it what really concerns me about the

Jakes situation and the response to it from evangelicals is it is all based upon the idea that you know what, we can all get along and we can sell books and we can make lots of money and we can be very very popular as long as we just simply don't let this silly theological stuff divide us and as the late

Dr. Walter Martin called out the non -racobotist mentality that's exactly what's going on and it's only getting worse not any better and when you come down to issues like the

Trinity and things like that it's similar to what happened with the K -Love radio network out here in Phoenix when letters came in to them concerning issues regarding modalistic oneness singers they said well, we want to agree on the 90 % that really, you know, it's like oh ok, the

Trinity and the 10 % doesn't really define things yahoo, what a day we live in well, hopefully

Eddie can track down the specifics for you, and if he does I'd like to hear about it absolutely,

Dr. White, thank you for your time thank you sir 877 -753 -3341 there's the update on that I don't have any information as to exactly why

T .D. Jakes' name is not appearing on that particular piece of literature now, but I suppose that's a positive thing what

I would like to see would be some interest on someone's part in regards to the defense of the

Trinity but hey, what can I say 877 -753 -3341 let's now talk with Stephen in Toronto hi

Stephen hello Dr. O, how are you? doing good you don't sound too good today well, that's ok anyways,

I just have two questions the primary one is I've been talking to this Roman Catholic fellow and he was talking about that none of the early church fathers spoke about people being justified by faith alone and I was wondering whether or not there are some early church fathers that I could point him to and just show him that they did talk about that well, there's a section on this in The God Who Justifies let me get it out here for you ok,

I'm reading that book right now and it's an excellent book I really appreciate your effort and my pastor wants to borrow that book well, no, he needs to buy that book let me see here pages let's see

I know it's in here someplace there is a section on the subject of church history and that particular subject it's within the first 8 chapters

I'm just sort of thumbing through it here yeah, here we go it starts on page 129 if you've got the book and so I won't repeat all of that you can look at particular individuals you can come up with particular citations certainly you can look at the epistle to Diogenes which we don't really know the exact date on but it's very very early on where you have presentations on that you have a section in Clement 1

Clement, the actual genuine letter from the Church of Rome to the Church of Corinth that some people date as even earlier than the book of Revelation but I don't necessarily agree with that but the fact of the matter is you're talking, you're asking this is one of those many many places, and in fact we just finished a class just last night on development of patristic theology and one of the constant themes that I repeated to the students was the need to deal with church history in a fair fashion and that is to not ask of these individuals questions that they themselves were not addressing that is what and this is especially a grievous activity of Roman Catholic apologists they're sort of forced into it actually by the beliefs of their faith, that is they're told that the early church believed what they believe and so therefore they are given a matrix, a context in which they are to read the early church fathers and so they then look back upon these early church fathers in an anachronistic fashion they read their modern theology back into them and say, ah see they were talking about these things when in point of fact they weren't and so I have said many times to my students, do not force the early church fathers out of their context, drag them into our modern context, sit them down and say, answer the questions that we are wrestling with today and that's what we're doing when we ask them to address issues regarding justification and the like which they were not addressing in the context in which we are addressing them and so to say, well you need to find such and such a phraseology or terminology you know, you can look at some passages from Ambrosiaster, you can look at some passages here there and everywhere, but that wasn't the debate at the time, that wasn't the issue at the time, and so even if they used that terminology, were they using that terminology in the same way that would be relevant to the modern debate, so on and so forth so the unfortunate part in dealing with many

Roman Catholics is they have been modeled a completely backwards mechanism of fairly studying the early fathers by their apologist leaders the people they're reading, whether it's from Catholic Answers or Envoy Magazine or these other various and sundry people that are out there and all they've ever seen are just these lists of statements and they don't know anything about context, they don't know anything about looking at an early church father and saying how much, if it's a real primitive father, how much even of the

New Testament does this person have, how stable is this person how consistent is this person, how much of the person's writing do we even have to be able to develop any kind of meaningful understanding of what they believed about things many early church fathers didn't even address the subject, and so to even ask, well, what is a consistent theology during a period of time when that's not even part of the debate is completely unfair, so the problem is they don't know that, and so they've been given this wrong way of doing history and so they come to the wrong conclusions based upon not having all the facts available to them and so it's really a matter of just trying to do some education there, and the problem is of course there's just not a whole lot of people from the

Protestant perspective who are in a position of being able to give that education anyways. If you want to hold on just one second, we're going to take our break and I'll take your second question when we get back from this break 877 -753 -3341 we'll be right back ...and

I manufacture grace, myself denied in some religious place by weeping hard on your face and saying prayers...

Under the guise of tolerance, modern culture grants alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality.

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Answering those who claim that only the King James version is the word of God, James White in his book,

The King James Only Controversy, examines allegations that modern translators conspired to corrupt scripture and lead believers away from true

Christian faith. In a readable and responsible style, author James White traces the development of Bible translations, old and new, and investigates the differences between new versions and the authorized version of 1611.

You can order your copy of James White's book, The King James Only Controversy, by going to our website at www .almin

.org. What is Dr. Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book Chosen but Free, A New Cult, Secularism, False Prophecy Scenarios?

No, Dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called Calvinism. He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent, philosophically insufficient, and morally repugnant.

In his book, The Potter's Freedom, James White replies to Dr. Geisler, that the potter's freedom is much more than just a reply.

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Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's Chosen but Free. You'll find it in the Reformed Theology section of our bookstore at almin .org.

Back to the dividing line, let's go back to Stephen and your second question.

Hi, Stephen. The second question has sort of a follow -up on the first. It has to do with authority.

The fellow again was saying that the Church is the one who is, or the Church is authoritative over the word of God, and I wasn't too sure on exactly how to address that one in a meaningful way that he can relate to.

He was quoting about the Church is the foundation of the Apostles and the

Prophets. Well, of course it doesn't say that the Church is the foundation of the

Apostles and the Prophets. The only passage that might be referred to there is the local church is described in 1

Timothy 3 .15 as the pillar and foundation of the truth. All of these issues are addressed, for example, that's addressed in the

Roman Catholic Controversy, the three -volume Holy Scripture set from Bill Webster and David King.

I address it in the upcoming Sola Scriptura book that will be out in October from Bethany House, and of course these have been the subjects of many of our debates, especially on the subject of Sola Scriptura, and it really almost ends up coming up with almost any one of the debates that we have with Roman Catholics because eventually, and it will in just a matter of less than three weeks, well, two weeks, in Long Island be pretty much the same issue, and that is fundamentally the final argument for the canonicity of the

Apocrypha is, well, Rome says so, and if Rome says so, then Rome defines the canon and therefore that's the way things are.

And so in every one of these situations, it comes back to that, and so we've addressed it numerous times, addressed the difference in nature between Scripture and the

Church, the fact that the Church is the Bride of Christ, the Bride of Christ listens in subjection to the voice of her

Master, that to adopt the Roman Catholic perspective puts the Church into a monologue with herself.

If she becomes the infallible interpreter of all things, there is no longer any means of self -correction, there is no longer any external standard that corrects the

Church, because the Church ends up defining what is and what is not revelation from God, whether it's Scripture or Tradition, and what that revelation, whether Scripture or Tradition, means, and so she ends up in nothing more than a monologue with herself.

She's muttering to herself, and that's why you can see the Roman Catholic Church wants the guidelines, the walls provided by Scripture have been knocked down.

That's why Rome can define such outrageously obtuse things as the bodily assumption of Mary, as a dogma of the

Christian faith, when she can't answer simple questions regarding the nature of something that is discussed in Scripture over and over again, that being the nature of grace, predestination, election, and things like that.

So, you end up with the Church in a monologue, because that is not the biblical methodology of authority that we see in the pages of the

New Testament. And so, while the Roman Catholic, who only listens to their side, and is only listening to one particular perspective, will come up with the idea that, well, without this final authority, you can't really know anything, they're really not answering the question as to how they know this is the final authority, how to test that, the claims of that particular authority, etc.,

etc. They just have no way of being able to test themselves for consistency, and they're trapped in that circle.

So, really, it's addressed from many, many different ways in all of the publications that we've produced in regards to Roman Catholicism, the debates, we frequently will go over, in fact, as I was searching for that particular clip in regards to Jimmy Akin's misidentification of Eris in John 6,

I noticed that... I think I read that article on the blog. Yeah, and as I was listening to dividing lines to track that one down,

I noticed that we spent quite some time playing various clips from these folks, saying the same things, responding to them.

So, a lot of information out there on that particular subject. Thank you. I heard you were coming up our way in September.

Yeah. That's so far down the road that I can't give you any details on it, but I'm supposed to be somewhere in Canada.

I don't remember where it is. I think it's Toronto. I heard it was. We'll take up a fund to bail you out if you talk about homosexuality.

Ah, there you go. They probably just kicked me out of the country for that.

But, yeah. It's actually passed through our

Senate that if you can be fined, I don't think you can go to jail for it.

Yeah, I understand that. Someone has told me, I think one of our

Canadians in Channel, we do allow an amazing number of Canadians in Channel, even though it does...

Well, but it really starts dragging things down eventually with all the eh stuff that takes place. And it also drags it down in other ways because Canadians are sort of cold and slow and stuff, and so the rest of us are warmer and so we move faster.

Anyway, what I was trying to say... Who's laughing in the background? I don't know why he's laughing about that, but he was mentioning that allegedly this law specifically protects religious speech.

I don't know... Well, would the government give it, the government take it? Oh yes, I agree a thousand percent.

No two ways about it. But that's the kind of stuff that's heading our direction too, I assure you, unfortunately.

Alrighty, sir. Thank you very much for your call today. Alright, God bless. 877 -753 -3341.

I don't see any indication of further phone calls currently at the moment. And, excuse me, so there are none at the moment, so I will talk about an article in the

March 15th 2004 Watchtower magazine.

I sort of wonder if there wasn't some attempt to play off of the passion fervor.

Certainly, one of the great areas of questioning that a lot of us have concerning the future of the

Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is the fact that they just simply can no longer insulate their people from so much of the information that is out there, even about their own history.

The Watchtower Society used to be a very closed society and while their people certainly watched television, the standard broadcast television channels would not be a tremendous challenge to Watchtower authority, of course.

Now there's not only cable, but the fact of the matter is almost everybody is on the internet now. And, as such, they are having to recognize the impact that those things have upon their people.

Well, anyway, this particular watchtower on the front has Jesus with two apostles, at least

I'm assuming that's who it is, and he has broken the bread, and the cup is there, and he is explaining the meaning of the broken bread to the apostles on the front.

And the title is An Observance That Affects You. And then the actual title of the article, which begins on page four, is

The Lord's Evening Meal, How Observed. Now, it does seem to me, and if you've read

Watchtower material for any particular length of time, you've discovered that they have a decades -long tradition of using ultra -wooden, bland, as enjoyable as chewing on wood shavings style of writing.

And I just don't know why. I can't possibly believe that they don't have people in Brooklyn who actually know how to write in a fashion that communicates and flows.

But if you've ever read the New World Translation, maybe they're just all stuck into that way of speaking. It's like King James Only folks that just constantly use the

King James Only terminology or something, I guess. I don't know. But The Lord's Evening Meal, How Observed, I just love when we've got

Roman Catholics on the channel. We have one right now, and he's sitting here asking me questions. Knows I'm doing the program.

Maybe figuring that since I can't answer him on channel right now, that means that there are no answers.

I don't know. But anyway, The Lord's Evening Meal, How Observed. If you're not familiar with the

Jehovah's Witnesses, then this article might not make a whole lot of sense to you. There is a picture on page 7 of a congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, and they are passing the unleavened bread down the aisle.

However, you can tell by just looking at the picture there, nobody is partaking.

And the vast majority of congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses, you will see the elements pass through the entire congregation and no one will take a piece of the bread, no one will drink from the cup.

Why? Well, because of the fact that they only believe that those who are in the

New Covenant are to partake of the New Covenant meal. And at that point, they would be correct, of course. It is the

New Covenant meal. It is the New Covenant in Christ's blood. So why wouldn't any

Jehovah's Witnesses? Well, there are. There are about 8 ,000 grand total across the world who did partake. But over 12 million gathered.

Maybe 14 million. I actually need to get the most recent statistics. I don't know if they've been published yet. They normally aren't published until the end of the year, but I could get last year's numbers anyway.

And there are a very small number, a very, very small percentage of the millions and millions of people who gather once a year, one time a year, for the

Memorial Supper. A very small percentage that partake of the Supper. And they count exactly how many do so.

Why? Because of their theology. The theology is that unless you are one of the 144 ,000, unless you're one of the anointed class, you are not in the

New Covenant. And that means that you do not have

Jesus as your mediator. You only benefit from his action as a mediator as you associate with those who have

Jesus as their mediator. In other words, there's actually been a picture in Watchtower publications of the great crowd.

That's 99 .95 % of all Jehovah's Witnesses. And then you have the small group of elderly people, which are the remnant of the 144 ,000.

And then you have Jesus. And if you watch the eyes, if you look at the way the people are looking, the small group of elderly people are looking up at Jesus.

And then the great crowd are looking to the 144 ,000. They're looking to the anointed class.

They're not looking directly to Jesus because they can't. They're not in the New Covenant. They benefit from his mediatorial work only as they associate and then the implicit idea is, are subject to and obey the anointed class.

Now, why would I say they're older folks? Well, because of the fact that in Watchtower theology, Jehovah stopped calling the anointed into relationship with him in 1935.

Now, 1935 was a long time ago. And there is a possibility still of getting into the anointed class, but it's sort of like flying standby.

It's flying standby on a on a full flight.

And basically, the only way you can get a seat now in the 144 ,000 is if somebody who's got a ticket doesn't show up.

And they don't use there. In other words, if one of the 144 ,000 apostatizes, commits an act of apostasy, gets kicked out of the group, then you can take their place.

But that's really, really, really considered to be a very, very, very small number of people.

And unless you're an elderly person past 70, 75 years of age, and if you haven't given your life in service to Jehovah's organization, they're just not going to take you seriously if you partake of the supper.

Now, that's why they count it. That's the only indication that they really have of how many people continue to claim to be of the anointed class.

That's why they continue that counting. But you can see the percentage of the number of people who gather once a year for the memorial supper getting lower and lower and lower each year, which, of course, in the thinking of Jehovah's Witnesses means we're getting closer, we're getting closer, we're getting closer, even though the emphasis upon the 1914 date has been removed, and I think they're working on getting rid of the 1914 date as time goes by.

Obviously, if the 1914 date goes by, then the 1935 date likewise is endangered and may disappear from Watchtower teaching and become just one of those little historical facts that only the weird folks outside the society actually know anything about.

And so, this whole article is about getting people to come to the supper and not partake.

To come to the supper and just observe the meal, even though they keep quoting over and over and over again

Jesus' own words, where he says, partake from it, all of you.

Drink of it, all of you. And this, again, and if you don't know the

Witnesses, look, these are the folks who could be knocking on your door. There's some of you right now that are going, oh boy,

I wish he was talking about King James Onlyism. Oh, I wish he was talking about Roman Catholicism right now. Oh, I wish he were talking about something else. Listen, these are the folks who knock on your door.

The folks who knock on your door were probably, on the night of April 4th, sitting in the

Memorial Supper. And, especially those that are very, very faithful, they have passed that plate by year after year after year.

And never, they've never partaken of it. Now, hopefully, if you understand what the supper is about, if you understand what it represents, that should break your heart.

It should absolutely break your heart that there are these people who have been given this second -class salvation system.

They don't have a Divine Savior, first of all. All they've got is Michael the Archangel. They don't have the love of God that is demonstrated in the

Gospel of Jesus Christ. I mean, Abraham showed greater faithfulness in giving his own son than God did in giving a created angel.

So, you start off with, they don't have a Divine Savior. They believe in Michael the

Archangel. And then, they don't even get to be in the 144 ,000.

They are not in the New Covenant. They're not, they're only partially justified, like talking about being partially pregnant.

They're only partially justified. And, they don't have a heavenly hope.

They are going to live forever in a Paradise Earth. And, even then, those that really know their beliefs know that they have a doctrine of what we would call eternal insecurity.

And that is that the Watchtower Society has left open the door that even after Armageddon and the

Millennium, and that final test at the end of the Millennium, that no Jehovah's Witness today knows he's going to pass.

Just think about that. Just think what it's like to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses, and you know that there's this possibility that at the end of the

Millennium, after all this time, you still may not pass the final test. There still may be unfaithfulness found in you.

And so, after all of that, even when the eternal state is entered into, they've still left the door open that if any evil is found in anyone, they will immediately be annihilated.

They will be destroyed. I don't know about you, but that is a religion of despair.

I mean, I've noted it before, and I think you'd have to agree with me. When you look at Jehovah's Witnesses at your doorstep, they look like particularly joyful people.

They don't seem that way to me. I've said, where is the joy of the Lord with these folks?

And I've gone to Kingdom Halls, and I've sat there, and I've observed, and wow!

It's not something that's uplifting. They are coming to you. They are coming to you, to your doorstep, and you have a tremendous message to share with these folks if you're prepared to do so.

The vast majority of folks, the vast majority of evangelicals are not prepared to do so.

But if you knew, if you had a biblical understanding of the Lord's Supper, of the

New Covenant, of the fact that either you are in the New Covenant and have salvation, or you're spiritually dead and enemy of God, there is no middle ground where they think they exist.

These are things that they're not hearing at the door. I can guarantee you,

Jehovah's Witnesses who are going door to door, they can argue John 1 1 until the cows come home, without ever engaging their mind to do so.

But you start talking to them about the New Covenant, and you start talking to them about the fact that you're either alive in Christ, or you're dead in your sins.

You're either living according to flesh, or you're living according to spirit. You're either adopted as a son of God, or you are standing in opposition to God, and are under His wrath, and they're going to be blown away.

Because this is not what the people going door to door are hearing from your standard

Mr. and Mrs. Evangelical. They used to hear more solid theology, but all they're hearing now is, well, what's coming from the pulpit.

And what's coming from the pulpit in the vast majority of churches is not going to in any way, shape, or form challenge

Jehovah's Witnesses, is it? Of course not. And so, we need to be prepared, and as I look at this, the doctrine of salvation,

I've said this many times, soteriology, is one of the best approaches that you can use with Jehovah's Witnesses.

Because the fact that they just don't talk about it. It's not one of those subjects where they've got just, well, they do have a set number of pat answers about the 144 ,000, but once you get past them, and it's not difficult to do, they're really lost.

I've told the story before, many years ago, back when this ministry fit into one bedroom, and we had two phone lines, 266 -2LDS and 266 -2JWS,

I started getting phone calls from this fellow, and I could tell he was one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I didn't realize he was a

Witness that I was actually corresponding with about the deity of Christ, a very well -known, nationally well -known

Jehovah's Witness who knew how to argue against the deity of Christ, no one that you would know, this was a number of decades ago.

Until finally one day, he admitted who he was. And I had been studying

Ephesians chapter 1, so just sort of out of the blue, I said to this man, are you in Christ?

And he said, what? Are you in Christ? Well, uh, in the

New World Translation, it translates those passages in union with, and so on and so forth. And he said, that's really not important, he wants to go back to talking about the deity of Christ.

I said, no, wait a minute. You know, ten times in the first thirteen verses of Ephesians, Paul talks about being in him, in Christ, in the beloved one.

And so, it's very important, are you in Christ? And here was a man who could have gone for hours debating on the deity of Christ, the

Trinity, the person of the Holy Spirit, but it was so painfully obvious that when it came to the issue of soteriology, the relationship of Christ to the gospel and to salvation, no concept of it.

None. And so, you really need to recognize the importance of that, and be prepared to give an answer.

If the Lord places a burden upon your heart, you look at these people and you see these families of Jehovah's Witnesses walking down the road, and they're dressed nicely, and there's these sad looking little kids, you know, walking along behind, and you can just see the slavery that they're in to this organization.

They need folks who can point them in the right direction, who know their Bibles, and can communicate to them.

And communicate to them in an effective manner, a manner where you're not just going back over the same old, same old that they've heard at a number of doors already this morning, but that you've actually spent some time preparing, and that you're able to, in reality, communicate something to them that will really cause them to start thinking.

Because their thought process was shut down by the Watchtower Bottom Track Society a long time ago.

They just keep hearing the same things over and over and over again that really don't cause them to be critically examining what they believe.

That's your role, that's where you get to come in. And you get to rattle a cage in the good sense, make someone think, make someone give consideration.

But the only way you can do that is if you can communicate to them on a subject that will cause them to start thinking, and this is one that will do so.

So, give consideration to that, and preparing yourself to share the Gospel with them. Thursday afternoon, 4pm

Pacific Daylight Time, 7pm Eastern Daylight Time, next edition of the

Dividing Line. Don't know if my voice is going to be better or worse. It's feeling worse now after making it function for an hour, but oh well, that's life.

Probably going to be better. Hopefully you'll be there. I'll be here, Lord willing. God bless.