The Laborers' Podcast- Church Membership

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00:21

Yo, let me explain what I mean, it's not too complex, it's preaching God's word in its proper context, as you listen be discerning, what you have to determine, what's the point of the passage, the point of the sermon?

00:33

If not, this problem must be confronted today, cause he just used the bible to say what he wanted to say, and even if it's delivered with fire and intelligence, that's basically making what

00:42

God has inspired irrelevant, instead of applying the word's realities, a lot of passages relying on personality, but give self communication, can never be a true replacement for the holy spirit's illumination, without exposition, you'll lack major profit, all you'll get is tradition and your pastor's favorite topics, and that can be a slippery slope, the word should be giving you hope, it's due to just giving you jokes, that won't help you love pride, it won't help your obedience, we need more expositors, not more comedians, but shepherds who labor in the text, and faithfully connect you to the savior, then wait for its effects,

01:15

God gives the increase, holiness, love, unity, the word faithfully preached builds up the whole community, if not, your sunday meal will not last, and you'll have to supplement it with the podcast, don't entertain us, that won't sustain us, preach the word, preach the word, preach the word, this verse right here, it's for the pastors, i just wanna encourage y 'all man, y 'all should be mindful of this devout thesis, all of the bible is about Jesus, the old testament,

01:43

Jesus Christ concealed, the new testament, Jesus Christ revealed, this truth of the Lord Christ boldly conveyed this in Luke 24 on the road to Emmaus, the lord of prophets and the teachings of apostles, all of these point back to Jesus in the gospel, so if the work of Christ is what the word is about, ultimately that should be what the sermon's about, forget applause you got to, let the cross rock you, all roads in the bible lead to Golgotha, whatever the text, faithfulness demands, that we should hear the echoes of nails hitting his hands, don't try to be original, save the old story, and watch your people change as they behold glory, the glory of Jesus, we need to see that, preach the word, all right, all right, welcome to the labors podcast, 1st

02:30

Timothy chapter 3 verse 14 through 16, this is the word of the living

02:36

God, Paul said I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these things to you so that if I delay you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living

02:50

God, a pillar and buttress of the truth, great indeed we confess is the mystery of godliness, he was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, and believed on in the world, taken up into glory, so guys how are y 'all doing tonight?

03:14

Doing good, doing all right, good, so tonight we are going to be talking about the church, right, and more particularly church membership, what is church membership, can we make a biblical case, these are some of the things that we're going to talk about, we're going to talk about a false view of church membership, a consumeristic view of church membership, different kinds of church membership, what makes church membership different from anything else on the earth, is having or requiring a local church role or membership even biblical, and what are our roles and responsibilities when it comes to church membership, not to mention a couple of other questions, that sounds like a whole lot that we're going to be tackling today, but I believe it will be well worth it, it will be beneficial for us, it will be beneficial for those who are watching this podcast, but right before we get into this, since I get to host this tonight, the

04:19

Here I Stand Theology Podcast, I'm making a big announcement tonight, so tonight officially the

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Here I Stand Theology Podcast has become a member of the Truth and Love Network, so Rob, tell us about the

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Truth and Love Network, what it's all about, where we're heading. Truth and Love Network is just whatever

04:41

God wants it to be. My desire is for my community, and I have been hoping, praying, and seeking, and loving the fellowship that God has brought together so far, and we're praying and hoping and seeking that God would bring more men together that are like -minded in theology, but also with a desire to reach their community, and so together

05:10

I'm hoping that God will use us to help each other reach our respective communities, and then we want to support each other in what we are doing individually with our own individual podcasts, or preaching, church planning, whatever you guys are doing, we want to support one another as we do that, and then once a week come together and just fellowship as brothers, and reach our community together as one podcast, and yeah, and we're off to a great start.

05:47

We've been doing it for a while, but we're trying to make it more official, and the

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Lord is blessing on that. Awesome, awesome. So tonight, let's do something, let's kind of add a niche to our conversation tonight.

06:04

So tonight, as we approach these questions, as we approach these issues, as we approach church membership, what it is, what it's about, is it biblical, so on and so forth, let's do this.

06:18

Let's make this like we are sitting at a table with each other. We'll pretend like these five squares on the screen in front of us are just chairs, which we're sitting at, and we're staring at each other, and so as we are talking tonight, if Tyler, if you want to interject, you just say, hold on a minute.

06:40

Dan will say, hang on a minute there, youngster. Jesse, Jesse will say, all right,

06:50

I got something to say, right? So let's make this fully conversational. Let's bring this down to, let's make this rubber meets the road talk tonight.

07:01

So which one of y 'all would like to start in on, can we make a biblical case for church membership?

07:08

Hint, hint, I read some scripture that points to it. So let me start off with Ephesians chapter four.

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Ephesians is one of my favorite books in the Bible, but Ephesians four is unique.

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He's writing to the church, Paul is, but he's writing a very encouraging letter.

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He's been hammering a lot of churches pretty hard with some stuff for a while, but Ephesians is encouragement.

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It's very encouraging instruction, and he starts off in chapter four with, therefore,

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I, the prisoner of the Lord, urge you to live worthy of the calling you have received. That's salvation, that we've been called into the family of God, and we are to live worthy of that calling with humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, making every effort to keep the unity of the spirit through the bond of peace.

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There is one body, one Lord, one spirit, just as you were called to one hope at your calling, one

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Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and father of all who is above all and through all and in all.

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That there is this unity that we have in Christ, that we are brought together into one body.

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We're one person, and this thing we call the church is a gathering of like -minded

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Christians. We are all brought into this assembly, and we abide in Christ together.

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We bear with one another in love. We are united in not just our calling, not just the fact that we're saved, but we're united in mission.

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We're united in worship. We're united in who God is, that we're all underneath the banner of who

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Christ is and what he's done. That's good, guys.

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How can we compliment that? From what I see, the doctrine of church membership is very similar to the doctrine of the trinity.

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You don't have a specific verse. You have to use your systematic theology like we talked about last time and draw your different verses together to help understand that God is triune, and so I think the same thing is true when it comes to church membership.

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There's no one verse that says when you gather at one place because it's geographically friendly with your neighbors, and you're all people whom

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God has saved, create a role. You don't have that particular verse, but what you see is that concept and that idea taught throughout

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Scripture. The idea of God marking people is all throughout

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Scripture. There's a mark that he talks about on the hand and the forehead for the antichrist, and then there's a mark of the lamb for people, and that's not talked about as much as the other mark or the mark of the beast.

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The mark of the lamb is not talked about as much. Here, as individuals, we're supposed to mark out those among you who are false teachers.

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We're to mark out the widows and the orphans, and then you have in Scripture, we hear talk about the lamb's book of life where God does have a role, and he knows whom are his, and then we learn from Christ that he teaches us to pray, thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven, and so if God is marking and knows whom are his, then

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I think we can do that here on earth by knowing whom

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God has drawn to himself, and then that leads us practically to the application of it, the church discipline, the helping of the widows and the orphans, and all that stuff.

11:34

Right, and so we'll get into that in more detail too. So what you're explaining there, would you say that it's really pointing toward the church universal there?

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Because the references you pointed out, we're really talking about the body of Christ as a whole, the church, the church universal.

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Right, yeah, and that's how it starts out off, but that as our example, when we move to our geographically friendly locations, it works out practically to help us in those other areas that we were talking about, church discipline.

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I mean, you can't kick somebody out if you don't have anybody in. So Jesse, let's go to you.

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The biblical case for church membership. Absolutely. I would like to think of, you know, back to a letter of Paul in Philippians chapter 1 verses 3 and 5.

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Paul says something that's very unique, somewhat overlooked, and he uses a phrase that I actually come to like more and more.

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And this one he says, and I quote, I thank my God every time I remember you in all my prayers for all of you.

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I always pray with joy because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now.

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I want to focus in that little phrase because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now.

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So the last part of that section, and he is very thankful of this partnership.

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Now, this partnership of what Paul has in mind is not a business partnership, is not a, you know, 50 -50 investment type partnership, like an entrepreneurship, right?

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He has more in mind like a fellowship, more in mind like the word koinia, which has the connotation of fellowship.

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And koinia here is actually referenced, is translated as partnership in this, you know, verse here.

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And a lot of people do relate it to business, but I like to take it a little bit more higher than that. And because we get to enjoy each other, you know, fellowship when we get together every

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Sunday, you know what I mean? And that body, that assembly, which is the assembly.

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When we get together, we become this assembly, this special body.

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And there's many bodies in the world that actually try to be like the church.

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I call them wannabes. And most people think about the United Nations as a great example of a body, of an assembly of people called out together that are together for one purpose, but yet they can't get along.

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They're not really a great example of what the church really is. So that koinia, when we get together, we actually have that fellowship.

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We get to enjoy our fellowship. This is the context where, you know, where, you know, the context of, you know, where we share each other's gifts, where we build each other up.

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And that immediately takes me to the world because the world is very lonely, very dark, very isolated, individualistic people out there, culture and all that.

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People don't have relationships. They really don't. It's very shallow if they do. And all you have to do is take a quick look at statistics and you will see that these relationships that exist in the world are shallow, very weak, you know what

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I mean? And it's nothing in comparison with a brother in Christ. Sometimes your relationship with your brothers and sisters in Christ is actually way more deeper and meaningful than your relationship with your own family in some context, you know what

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I mean? And, you know, it takes me to another verse in Ecclesiastes, this koinia and action type thing.

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And in Ecclesiastes chapter four, section verses nine and 10, he says, two are better than one.

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Two are better than one. If one of them falls down, one can help each other up, right?

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But pity anyone who falls and has no one to help them up. That's the world out there.

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You know what I mean? They're all against one another. You know, the homies, the friendships are shallow.

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They're weak. They don't really help each other. You know what I mean? It's like tick for tack, you scratch my back,

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I'll scratch your back. So in the Christ community, because what we're talking about is a community here, that doesn't really exist.

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At least it's not supposed to be like that. You know, we walk with the brother, we walk with the widow, we walk with the orphan, like extra miles, you know what

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I mean? Somebody told me, if you want to be an elder in the church, just go ahead and lay down like a speed bump right there, because you're going to get around over a ton, you know what

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I mean? And you got to do it to the glory of Christ. You know, it's a lot of service for the elders, and it's not to be served, right?

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And the world out there is very looking to be served and what's in it for me. And that's not the community that Paul has in mind here, that he's thankful of.

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You're not really thankful for people who take advantage of you, you know what I mean? You're not really thankful for cheaters and liars and back biters and stuff like that.

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You're thankful for your pastor preaching. You're thankful for that encouraging word you got on Sunday, that fellowship meal, that koinia that we're supposed to get every

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Sunday. And you can't get that if you're not in church. Yeah, and it takes us back to Jesus' words.

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The Son of Man came not to be served, but to serve and to give His life a ransom for many, right?

18:07

So you just hit on a bunch of the questions there. So let's move over to Dan. Dan, the biblical case for church membership.

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You know, I don't know is that the Bible makes the case for church membership. And here's why I say that. It's because the

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Bible doesn't really argue for it because it just assumes it. It kind of just assumes church membership. As you go through it, everything that you come up against where it deals with a church setting, there's authority structures, which you have to define who's in, who's out.

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If you're going to discipline someone, who can be disciplined, who's not. Even the Apostle Paul talking about, you should judge those who are inside of the church and not those who are out because God will judge us who are outside of the church.

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Paul, again, in Hebrews, because that's who wrote Hebrews, fight me about it. I agree, man.

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We can arm wrestle, but we're arm wrestling for the same thing. He says in,

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I think it's chapter 10, not to forsake the assembling of yourselves together. How do you know who to go meet with if you don't have a group of folks there?

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They chose from the godly men, those who would be deacons. I mean, it just goes on and on.

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Paul was looking for people who were going to be worshiping on the Lord's day. So he went down to the place where the church would gather.

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It's not argued for in the New Testament because it's assumed. It was just, if God's going to call people to himself, then those people who are gathered around the gospel are going to be his people.

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Those people are just to act a certain way. They're held to a certain standard or they're brought under discipline.

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Yeah, I agree. I agree. Jesse, I thought you was reading my mind when you went to Philippians there because if you go right to the very first verse of Philippians there, right?

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So what does Paul say? Let me get there. Sorry. I'm not bringing this all up on the computer tonight.

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I'm doing it manually. So Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, to all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi with the overseers and the deacons.

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There we have the structure of the local church in two verses right there.

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The saints, the deacons, and the elders are the overseers. We have it all right there.

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The Belgic Confession talks about the church, marks of the church.

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Article 28 of the Belgic Confession states, we believe since this holy congregation is an assembly of those who are saved and out of it there is no salvation that no person of whatsoever state or condition he may be ought to withdraw himself to live in a separate state from it, but that all men are in duty bound to join and unite themselves with it, maintaining the unity of the church, submitting themselves to the doctrine and discipline thereof, bowing their necks under the yoke of Jesus Christ and as mutual members of the same body, serving to the edification of the brethren according to the talents that God has given them.

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That's succinct right there. That's a stick of dynamite.

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That'll blow a mailbox up right there. All right. We're all done. All right. Thank you for joining us.

21:45

What were you reading the Belgic Confession out of? My Bible.

21:51

Okay. The Reformation Study Bible, it's got all the creeds and confessions in the back of it.

21:57

Gotcha. Yeah, it's handy. It's handy to have all of them there together. So Rob, let's go back to you here now.

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Let's talk about different types of church memberships. You started us on this path here.

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Let's go ahead and continue. What are different kinds of church memberships?

22:19

So we have the universal church, the church body as a whole referred to as Catholic, and we have the local church.

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Talk to us a little bit about that. Yeah. I mean, this is a discussion that I would like to have with you guys sometime just to pick your brain because some people talk about us carrying over that word church from a different place.

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Us Protestants may not use that word, but it's the most familiar word to us, so we continue to use it.

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But I think we're more familiar with assembly or could use the word assembly.

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But I think what I was talking about there is the different areas of our membership.

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I mean, when we're born again, when God saves us initially, He brings us into His assembly,

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His kingdom, His church. That's the universal or capital C Catholic or lowercase

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C Catholic church. And so that's where we start.

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And then the verse that Dan quoted to us, it's going to be like our, well,

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I guess it would have to be our, if we grew up outside the church, um, in many cases, um, and, and things may be changing, um, because, you know, in, in the last several decades, um, most people were, or would maybe claim to be church goers.

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People took their families to church and many people were saved in church. Uh, but things may be moving in a different direction.

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So, uh, we used to talk about the first act of obedience is baptism, but now if you're outside of the church or got saved outside of the church, didn't grow up in the church, um, maybe your first act of obedience is going to that, you know,

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Hebrews verse that Dan was talking about and finding that local assembly where then you can become baptized as a believer, uh, for the first time.

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And, uh, and then you join that, that local assembly. And that's where you can, you yourself can be accountable, uh, to brothers and sisters.

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Um, you can keep others accountable. You can be fed, you can feed others and you can, um, uh, you know, just like the, the characteristic, we represent

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God and, and we, um, we reflect Him in that assembly where, you know,

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God shares His characteristic characteristics among the Godhead, the Father, the

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Son, the Holy Spirit, where they, they are able to show love towards one another. Um, they are able to communicate with one another.

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And so the same thing is true when we reflect Him amongst one another in that local assembly, we're able to love one another, serve one another, um, discipline one another, um, and so on and so forth.

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So that's kind of what I mean in helping us understand and making those distinctions between the universal church versus the local assembly.

25:33

Yeah. And so I, I can see a credo versus pedo, uh, debate brewing between you and Dan right now.

25:44

Tyler's up there. Or, or were you sprinkling?

25:53

I was sprinkling. Yeah. I thought you were sprinkling. All right.

25:59

So Matt, by the way, we didn't get to, uh, uh, we, we brought it up there. Matt Breeding's on with us. He said, hi, there's another

26:05

Facebook user on, but that's all that comes up. Facebook user, we don't know who you are. Tell us who you are in the comments and we'll give you a shout out.

26:15

All right. So, uh, uh, universal, uh, invisible church, local, local visible.

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I know those sometimes are taken kind of, you know, uh, that, that they ought to be taken at face value, what they're, what they're talking about.

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So Jesse, or let's go to, let's actually go to Tyler. Jesse, you had mentioned this, but let's see what

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Tyler has to say about this. What makes church membership different from anything on earth?

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Abraham Kuyper, a philosopher from about a hundred years ago. So you know where I'm going.

26:53

Um, he once wrote in a fantastic book that is very hard to read, um, that the church is both an institution and an organism, sorry, that it's an institution and an organism, that it's an institution and that it's something organized.

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It's something established and very defined that there is a hierarchy, there is a certain order to it.

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But in the same token, it's an organism. It's something living. It is, um, flowing, it flourishes, it grows, it, um, learns and things like this.

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There's not a parallel for that in the secular world. While we have the state, which the

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Bible's very clear is instituted by God. Um, the state is not an organism in the way that the church is, and it's certainly not purchased by the blood of Christ.

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I can't find anywhere in scripture where it says that Christ died for the propitiation of the Republican party.

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But I do find about how we are the ransom saints of God and that he has built us into a spiritual house.

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We can, there are a lot of great descriptions like that because we have this beautiful temple in the

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Old Testament. We have many beautiful temples and this is where they gathered to worship.

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It was very, it was organized. It was an institution and it was in some, um, in some ways that actually pointed to what

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God was going to build spiritually with his church and who's going to purchase it with his blood.

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And so we've been built up in a spiritual house, but it's not just this stony, cold building.

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It is something living. It flows and that it grows.

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Going back to Ephesians chapter four, and it says he himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers to do what?

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To equip the saints for the work of ministry, to build up the body of Christ until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God's son growing into maturity, stature measured by Christ's fullness.

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Then we will no longer be little children, meaning we're growing and we will not be tossed by the waves and blown around by every wind of teaching by human cunning with cleverness and techniques or deceit.

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But speaking the truth in love, let us grow in every way into him who is the head, meaning

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Christ. Amen. From him, the whole body fitted and knit together by every supporting ligament promotes the growth of the body for building up itself in love by the proper working of each individual part.

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So it is organized in that we have leaders, we have roles, we have expectations, but it's an organism in the sense that it grows, it matures, it guides itself, it learns, it adapts, not while straying from its original purpose, but it is fluid.

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It grows, it adapts. I'm saying that a lot, but the point is the state does not grow beyond what it was originally designed to do.

30:03

Right. And when it does, it ceases to be God's design for the state. Wait a minute, let's let

30:10

Dan interject here. He's vibing on something right there. Go ahead, Dan. Our government has definitely grown beyond what it was originally intended to do.

30:19

Our government is the blob. Yeah. You ever seen the 1950 movies, the blob?

30:27

It's like this devouring everything. The Stay Puft Marshmallow Man, Ghostbusters.

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I think I agree with what you're saying, though. It's the only thing that continues to grow bigger than what it was designed to and still be good and functional because it seems that we're growing more in a dysfunctional sort of way.

30:52

We'll go with that. All right. So let's pick up. Let's keep this moving.

30:57

I got another question. This was asked that we address it on the podcast tonight.

31:07

So Tyler gave us a great scriptural, biblical explanation of the purpose of the local church, the function of the local church, the function of the offices within the local church.

31:23

So here's a question. I would like to hear some official thoughts.

31:28

That's not a question right there, but still, it's a statement being posed as a question. Just go with it.

31:36

I'd like to hear some thoughts on official membership, official church membership, i .e.

31:42

being voted in, placed on the church roll, signing papers versus just being committed to and involved in the local congregation without any official status.

31:55

And the actual question is, is commitment slash involvement sufficient or should the

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Christian make quote unquote official membership a priority?

32:08

Jesse, let's start with you. Amen. Yes. Churches need to make membership a priority.

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They need to know who's who in the zoo. You can't just come up into church buildings nowadays and then leave.

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So like the community of God has a privilege on one side and a responsibility on the other side.

32:37

I agree. And people need to know. They need to know that coming in.

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It's not just a social club. You don't go to church just to hang out. Like, sure, we have relationships and we do hang out at church, by the way.

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But at the same time, that's not our primary goal. Right. So people like to think of church as where all the people go when they're scared.

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You know what I mean? So after 9 -11, if you remember 9 -12 church attendance was like the highest in American history because everybody went to church the next day.

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You know what I mean? And then like that same Sunday, church services was like back to normal.

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It was like the normal attendance rate. So because everybody thought that the world was going to end the next day because of World War Three or whatever.

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So it was like everybody's going to church the next day. So people like to think that church is just a place you just go when you're scared or, you know, a social club.

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You know what I mean? So, yeah, shame on those churches out there that are just social clubs and hangout spots for like college age people.

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And then they ferment into like hookup spots. And it's like they don't teach and disciple their people.

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You know what I mean? I don't know where I heard this from, but like the pastors are supposed to be feeding the sheep, not entertaining the goats.

34:15

That's right. And that's what happens a lot in church.

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You know what I mean? So people don't really put two and two together. Like when they think of membership, they think of Costco. They're like, what?

34:27

Like membership? Like do I have to pay into this? Like, you know what I mean? First of all, if you're paying into your church membership, it sounds like a scam.

34:36

Yeah, exactly. You know what I mean? So you may want to double check that. So, yeah.

34:42

So church, because, you know, it depends on your eschatology, you know, your view on the end times.

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If your view on the end times is incredibly positive, obviously, the world is getting every

34:55

Monday doesn't necessarily need to be a better place if you're like a postmill. But at the same time, the world is getting better if you're a postmill.

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You know what I mean? If you're a dispensational, the world's going to hell. The world's getting, you have a very pessimistic point of view.

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You know what I mean? So like, it depends on how you view the world, the relationship with the church in the world.

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You know, churches are not, you know, a lot of churches are not offering membership. It's just a hangout spot.

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So churches do need to, you know, make it a priority because the world is becoming more secular, more post -Christian.

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So, you know, it'd be really nice to have an institution out there, the church, to be a light on the shiny hill, to be like, this is the place, this is the last institution standing when the world collapses.

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You know what I mean? Just like the dark ages when the Roman Empire fell, the only thing was standing was the church. You got the monasteries.

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Monasteries is the only thing there. Everything else is just collapsed. So, you know what I mean? And the strong churches will stand and will last.

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The weak churches won't last. They're the ones that are getting swallowed up by the, you know, by the leftists and all the secular culture right now.

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So church membership kind of does kind of put a stiff arm, you know, from those flakes and those people who are really part of the sheep.

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Because those who follow Jesus, they know his voice. So you're going to obey the scriptures and follow

36:31

Jesus and not like, oh, I don't want to become part of the membership. Right. So part of that, so are you saying then part of the issue that are taking place and part of the challenge of folks grasping the importance of literal official status church membership is because the church has been lax on this.

36:57

I agree with that. Oh, yeah. Is that what you're saying? Yes, the church has been lax, you know what I mean? And we can't judge the world based on our circle of influence, you know what

37:05

I mean? Like we go to church and we're, you know, we're holding it down. Well, like that doesn't mean the church down the street, across the way, across the river, you know, across the ocean is holding it down.

37:19

Obviously, God knows who are his, but you know what I mean? Though the world is becoming way more secular, but at the same time,

37:25

Christ is still ruling. So, yeah, it all depends on your view in the end time, see how that's going to work out.

37:32

Yeah, the church is definitely need to make it a priority. I agree. So, let's go to Dan.

37:40

So, should the Christian, the Christian, the believer in Jesus Christ, the one who is born again, make official membership a priority in your full screen?

37:57

That's right. Oh, yeah, absolutely. They should make it a priority.

38:03

Because one of the issues I think people have wrapping their heads around the idea of church membership is that they don't think of it as the same thing as a kingdom citizenship, which really we should think more in those terms than we do in terms of like club membership or membership with some other organization that we're familiar with on the earth.

38:30

So, if we think of it as a kingdom citizenship, like if you go into a new kingdom that you want to be a part of, a new country that you're trying to be a citizen of, yeah, he's a handsome fellow, you're going to need to seek out, you know, get your, you want that citizenship, you want to pass the test, you want to get your green card, so to speak.

38:57

And what that does is it gives you or it entitles you to all the rights and privileges of the people in that citizenry.

39:06

So, when we think of those who are a part of the kingdom of God, when you think of church membership and those who are a part of the kingdom of God, what they have then access to is to the teaching of the church, the sacraments, to discipline from godly leaders who've been vetted and had their hands laid on by people who have gone, hopefully, but not always, all the way back to the apostles.

39:37

It's the way that God has set things up. It's one of those things where if you seek out church membership, you're seeking a representation of kingdom citizenship here on earth because you're making a claim that I'm living as one who has hope in the gospel of Jesus Christ that one day when everything is said and done,

40:01

I will be a part of that kingdom and that kingdom will be here on the earth. Yep, like Jesse was saying, the shiny city on a hill.

40:09

Right. So, Rob, let's jump up to you. You're sitting up there. I can tell you've got some deep thoughts happening.

40:15

So, let's pick your brain now on this. Let's talk a little bit further.

40:21

So, we talk about the importance of church membership, and I would say by a consensus head nod and amen, whatever the case may be as a pastor,

40:34

I like to hear amens if it's the truth. Do we have a consensus on the fact that official church membership should be a priority in the life of a

40:44

Christian? Amen. Amen. I would say yes. Amen. Amen. Yes. All right.

40:49

So, Rob, on that note, what are the benefits of official church membership?

41:00

I think a lot of us have touched on many of them already. You're going to receive love.

41:08

You're going to be able to give love. There's that idea of taking care of one another, accountability, being able to discipleship and disciple others, to be disciplined and discipline others, all for the purpose of reconciliation and glorifying

41:27

God. Community, fellowship, first and foremost, being obedient to Christ, submitting to Him, and learning about Him, knowing

41:42

Him more, loving Him more through all this. So, that and many other reasons why it's beneficial to join a fellowship and be officially a member on the rolls at a local church.

42:00

As you guys were talking, I was looking at some other verses, just to quickly throw them in there.

42:07

Paul makes distinctions, and he makes lists. If you look at Galatians 6, verse 10, he says, therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially, and there's the distinction, especially to those of the household of faith.

42:23

So, there Paul is making a distinction between, yeah, we're supposed to do good to all men, but especially those within the household of faith.

42:31

So, how do we know who's in the household of faith? It's those who are on the rolls, and I think we have to do that practically, because we're not

42:45

God. You know, God is able to judge the heart, see the heart, and make those distinctions, and make those disciplines, because He knows, and He has the ability, but for us, putting it on paper, a class, or an interview, making sure that somebody who is joining your fellowship is truly who they say they are, you know, those type of things, just because of our limitations, we're not

43:24

God, and it helps us to determine those things. But then that one last verse that I wanted to mention was, you know,

43:31

Galatians 6 talks about a distinction that Paul makes, and then he makes a list in 1

43:37

Timothy chapter 4, when he's talking about taking care of the widows. Verse 9, a widow is to put on a list only, and then he gives the qualifications that she has to meet before she's put on a list to be taken care of.

43:53

But yeah, and there's a benefit for the widow, that she's taken care of. Yeah, the local church should be the body, should be the group that particularly, like you just read there, takes care of its own.

44:19

I think one of the things that I think, and I don't know, maybe this is not the exact right term that I'm going to use here, but one of the overblown ideas from within church membership is that it is one particular church, or one particular association of churches' responsibility to take care for the needs of the world, when the

44:47

Scriptures teach us clearly, like you just read, that it is the responsibility of the local body to care for its own.

44:56

The church, like Reformata Baptist Church, can't take care of the whole world.

45:03

We can particularly zoom in and focus on those within the congregation that have needs, and we can better help them with a concentrated focus of care than we can sprinkling a little bit of care throughout the world.

45:21

Yeah, a couple of weeks ago my pastor said, there are no poor in the church because we take care of our own.

45:28

Yeah, yeah. And we're failing at our intended purpose, and we're doing what the world's supposed to do when they see us.

45:37

So the modern church looks at the world, and they say, well, we want to be that so we can attract more members.

45:43

But when in reality, we're supposed to be lifting up and taking care of our widows and our orphans and our own so that when the world looks in at us, they say,

45:52

I want that, and we've got a good flock. Yeah, and that goes to your question,

46:00

Rob, or your statement. You said, I think we should touch on the false way that so many view church membership as consumers rather than as believers.

46:13

So Tyler, we've not got to you in a minute. Let's ask this question to you.

46:20

So how is church membership viewed consumeristically? Or basically, let me put it another way.

46:33

I'll break it down like this. Let me say this. How is church membership viewed as though that you're going to Jumbo Buffet for lunch, and you've got about a thousand different things that you like or that are set before you, but you only want a few?

46:50

How is that happening with folks in the world today? There's quite a few avenues where we see that taking shape.

46:59

Some of it depends on certain persuasions. For example, we talked a while back about the songs we sing and about often we focus on a particular style or a particular sound.

47:14

And then there are some elements like that, that we go to this church because we like the music or we like the accent the guy preaches in or things like that.

47:24

And so there's that pick and choose kind of notion there that it's who's closer to my preferences as opposed to who's closer to the

47:32

Bible. And then moving outwards a little bit with consumerism to, like you said about looking at it, not as believers, but as consumers or as customers, that we might enter a church looking solely to be served.

47:49

And that's the main focus is where will I be served? Which is something

47:55

I'm sure we're all guilty of at some point. That's a selfish mindset. Should the church serve?

48:02

Absolutely. But that shouldn't be our prime directive is to be served.

48:10

And so there are different layers to how we look at the church as if we are customers and the church is like a grocery store, that we come in and we get the service.

48:23

I put my money in the basket and I go on my merry little way. I pay this amount to the tithe every week.

48:33

So I should have this say in what songs we sing or things like that.

48:38

And we get into that mindset as well that I own the church, that I can direct the church because I'm an investor.

48:48

I'm a customer. I'm a consumer. And there are different aspects there. And so there is a growth issue that combats that.

49:00

Going back to this idea of growth, that we are sanctified by coming under the word of God, by being surrounded by the people of God.

49:09

And that is something that is rooted out through our sanctification. Philippians chapter two tells us to work out our salvation with fear and with trembling for it is

49:19

God that works in you. And so as we approach the church, we have to approach the church as people that are working out the deeper points of their salvation with fear and trembling.

49:33

That is that we know who God is. We know that God needs to be taken seriously and that we are wretched sinners in need of a great savior and that we are willing to dive deep into who

49:46

God is, what he's done, and how we become benefactors of that. In theological terms, we call that the person and work of Christ, who he is, what he did, and how we become recipients of that.

50:01

And I think that undergirds everything the church is, is who Christ is, what he did, and how we become a part of that.

50:08

And that also plays into our sanctification as well as the Holy Spirit, but that's a whole other conversation, that when we come under the lordship of God, when the fact that Christ is king is realized in our lives, there is change, there is growth, there is pruning as we are being conformed to the image of Christ in every thought, word, and deed, including how we operate in the church.

50:37

Amen. Amen. Let's move to this. We've got two more issues we'll try to confront here.

50:45

So, Rob, this question here, talk to us about this, and we're going to jump back over to Jesse.

50:51

What does it mean that the back door should be easier to get out of than the front? What did you mean by that?

50:58

So, that comes up a lot when you actually confront, study, and try to redevelop the biblical doctrine of church discipline in your church again.

51:09

And so, just as a pastor wants to protect the pulpit when he has to be absent, and he needs someone to fill in, he wants somebody in there that he can trust that's going to preach the word, that's going to feed his flock, and that's going to exposit scripture.

51:29

And so, the same thing is true for the church. We're supposed to protect our flock, and that's part of the responsibility of the pastor and the church itself is protecting its flock.

51:44

And so, there's the concept and the idea of unregenerate church membership.

51:53

There's fearfully a lot of people that we put on our roles that are unregenerate.

52:01

And so, you look at the topic of easy believism, just trying to get as many people as you can down the aisle, get them baptized, and get them on the rolls just so you can escalate your numbers and look good in your associations or whatever.

52:22

And so, we make it so easy, but we give people a false sense of hope and enable them to continue to live their lives in the world as long as they checked a few boxes.

52:37

And then, that causes trouble within the church because people aren't thinking, the Holy Spirit's not working in these people, and people aren't thinking biblically.

52:45

They're not thinking in terms of what Christ, what God would have us to do here in the church. But as Tyler was pointing out, it's how can it best serve me?

52:55

How can it best serve my family? What do I want in the church? And so, it should be harder to get in the front door than it is the back.

53:08

I get you. I hear you now. We want to protect our flock. And it's also not just protect our flock, but also to protect those who are wanting in, to give them a better assurance of their faith and help them understand their relationship with God and not give them a false sense of hope.

53:29

And then, the back door is that subject of church discipline, which we'll get to in another podcast.

53:39

Church discipline, it's not familiar to folks anymore. But when we talk about church discipline, the first thing that people think about is, we don't want to throw people out of the church and cast stones and judge people.

53:54

And that's not all. That's like the very last resort that you rarely come to is kicking somebody as communication, kicking somebody out of the church, taking them off the rolls.

54:06

It's going to some person one -on -one. And the whole process is, the goal is reconciliation with God and with the church.

54:19

But it should be easier to go through that process as a church than actually getting in.

54:31

I would go even further and just not even talk about, not even think about a back door, because that's the whole point of church membership, is being there, being committed, being caring, being disciplined, and staying for the long run.

54:52

Church membership is viewed as a temporary thing. Oh, I'll just go here.

54:58

Now, so Jesse, I noticed in Messenger earlier, you're in Colorado, right?

55:05

I am. The great states. Yep. Yeah. Middle Earth. So the rest of these guys were all

55:14

East Coast. And Dan, you're from Kentucky originally, right?

55:21

North Carolina. North Carolina. So you're raised in the country. Tyler's raised in the country.

55:27

Rob's raised in the country. I was raised in the country. I don't know if you was raised in the country or not, Jesse, but the thing about church membership in the

55:36

South, in the Bible Belt, is basically, you go to a church, and then when something happens that you don't like, you don't get mad, but you act spiritual, and you say this,

55:54

I feel like the Lord's telling me it's time to move on. So, yeah, that is spiritualizing, that is spiritualizing and demonstrating and evidencing spiritual immaturity, because the spiritually mature

56:17

Christian looks at church, I probably get hate mail for this, but I'm gonna say it.

56:26

I think that a Christian needs to look at church membership the same way we look at marriage, for the long haul, because when we join a local body, we are joining that local body to care for, to love, to spend, to laugh with, to cry with, to rejoice with, to get mad at even, because that's the reality of it.

56:54

We're gonna get mad. Who are the people we get mad at the most in this world? Probably, if you're like me, it's your family members, and your family members, you got to be able to smack in the back of the head.

57:07

Now, I'm not saying this as a pastor. I'm just saying this brother to brother, right? You got to be able to smack them in the back of the head and say, you are acting like an idiot.

57:18

Why don't you straighten up? This is what the Bible says. Let's go to God in prayer together.

57:24

Let's work through this. Let's go the extra mile together here, and let's work through this, and what happens when that takes place is that our bond is strengthened within the body.

57:38

Our love for one another is strengthened, because guess what? We realize that when we look at our brothers and sisters in Christ, that they ain't no different than we are, that they fall and that they fail, but we have the same

57:55

Savior, and we have the same advocate that we go to. We have the same

58:00

Lord that we cry and confess our sins to, and He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

58:10

Church membership should be centered around Christ and not around ourselves.

58:16

When that's the case, the body itself is blessed, and the individual

58:23

Christian is blessed. Wait a second. Becky's saying something here. Let me bring this up. If my husband hits me in the back of the head,

58:30

I'm coming for you, Claude. No, no, no. Here's the thing.

58:36

It's a shame that we got to make a disclaimer on this. As a pastor myself, I'm not saying this is how we treat church members.

58:44

I am saying brother to brother, sister to sister in Christ, we need to have a relationship such and so that we can be completely honest with one another.

59:00

I'll say this, Becky. If Dan does that, the rest of these guys here, we're going to pull our money.

59:08

We'll get a plane ticket, and we'll come and whoop Dan if he does that because that is not a husband loving his wife like Christ loves the church.

59:16

I think all four of us can take him, guys. No, no. I might be in New York, but I believe in the

59:24

Second Amendment. Let's move to a close here,

59:31

Jesse. Let's close with you here. Why is it, would you say, it's important to clean and maintain an updated church membership role?

59:45

Well, because you want to know who's actually going to church. You know what I mean? Because you don't want to be having like a family member or like a person on your roles who hasn't been there for years.

01:00:01

You know what I mean? If that's the case, then I would question whoever's updating the spreadsheets.

01:00:08

They probably need to choose a better person for that job. You're fired.

01:00:15

You know what I mean? I don't know. Maybe when somebody leaves or transitions or a church membership transfer, maybe give them a year, maybe less, six months, a year.

01:00:31

You know what I mean? It's up to every session or church leadership to decide on the maximum or minimum, but you definitely want to keep tabs on updating the spreadsheet.

01:00:43

Imagine if you never updated the address on your license for the past 10 years, past 15 years.

01:00:51

You know what I mean? You'll be like, wow, I still have that address. Wow. You know what I mean? It's just like, you know, sooner or later, it's going to come bite you in the butt.

01:01:00

You're like, come on. Update your address on your license, man. Come on. Or imagine if you don't update your tags on your car.

01:01:07

You know what I mean? You're going to get pulled over once in a while. It's going to be embarrassing. You're going to be like, oh, Rob still comes to this church.

01:01:14

You know, they're like, who? Rob. They're like, dude, he left back in 72.

01:01:24

You're like, oh. You know what I mean? So I think it's important to keep, you know, if you read one of the books called

01:01:34

Nine Marks of a Healthy Church, one of the chapters in there says it's about growth. And obviously to grow, you need to prune.

01:01:42

You know, discipleship and, you know, discipline is involved in growth.

01:01:48

You know what I mean? And you need to prune. So like, when you remove church, you know, church members, you know, people need, you know, churches need to edit all that stuff.

01:01:58

So, yeah. So when you got two new couples, they got maybe, you know, somebody changed their last name or somebody became a widow.

01:02:05

So, yeah, it's incredibly important. That's like, you know what I mean? I think if a pastor says, I don't know anybody, you know,

01:02:12

I only know faces and I don't know anybody in here in this room. You know what I mean? Like, yeah.

01:02:17

And vice versa. If a church member says, I don't even know, you know, my pastor,

01:02:24

I don't even know who, is he married? You know what I mean? Like, does he even live here? You know what

01:02:29

I mean? Like, if the elder and deacon are looking at each other, like you're an elder. Uh oh.

01:02:39

I think he may have hit a button. That was not church discipline. We can't hear you.

01:02:51

We can't hear you. Can you hear me?

01:03:03

Yeah, now we can. All right. Sorry about that. Yeah. Like if the elder and a deacon are looking at each other and they don't know each other,

01:03:12

I'd say that's a bad sign. Communication is key as well because, you know, like a member, a member, if a member wants to leave the church, there's a process and there's a right way and a wrong way to leave a church, right?

01:03:28

So like if a church membership, if a church member is leaving, vanishing, you know what

01:03:33

I mean? I think the elders have the responsibility somehow to keep tabs, like call them, email them, drop by, buy a visit.

01:03:41

And going back to the idea you were mentioning, you know, you're in it for the long haul. I think you could definitely find that in church history because when you go back to the early days of the colonials, especially in England, Ireland and stuff like that, you go to these old churches and what do you see?

01:04:01

Yeah. You see cemeteries. Yeah. You see cemeteries behind churches, old churches.

01:04:07

Now in the modern day, it is kind of creepy, but you know what I mean? But like, you're like, well, you don't want to be there after, you know, 10 o 'clock.

01:04:14

But in the old days, they had church buildings, had like their own water well, you know what

01:04:21

I mean? They had their own cemeteries. They had, they were self -sufficient. They're like islands of like, they had everything and their own guardians and stuff like that.

01:04:28

So there's something to that being self -reliant type community that I think we kind of lost during the,

01:04:37

I don't know, industrial revolution or, you know, after World War II or something like that, that we kind of, we may need back in the future probably, you know what

01:04:46

I mean? And that probably does have to come down from legislation because that comes down to building code.

01:04:54

Like you can't just build a building and have a cemetery, you know what I mean? And it's like, well, back in the day, you know what

01:05:00

I mean? A lot of cemeteries are built right next to churches. So, you know, elect somebody who would change that and then we could fix that.

01:05:09

You know what I mean? Yeah, I agree. And in closing, I would add this one last thing.

01:05:16

And then Rob, if you wouldn't care to close us out with the gospel here in a minute, but the importance of maintaining church membership, bro, like what you just said,

01:05:25

Jesse, is very, very important. And I would go a step further and say it's very important so that as the church is designed and set up to be under a plurality of elders with deacons serving, so that the elders can love and pastor and care for the folks that are there.

01:05:49

It goes back to that concentrated care. We can't care for the church member that's on the roll that ain't been there in 20 years.

01:05:58

There's, I mean, there's no way to keep up with that. But when you know who's there regularly, then you can set aside time, effort, energy, resources to actually focus on those members so that they get the best care possible, whether it's encouragement, whether it's discipline, whether it's food, physical needs, right, food, electricity, whatever the case may be, but so that we actually do what

01:06:31

Christ commanded us to do, and that is care for one another. Guys, this is a big topic. Rob had laid us out big time on this.

01:06:40

Rob, I hope I did you justice on this. Rob's usually the one leading here.

01:06:46

He gets, he got a kind of a reprieve tonight just to sit and be put on the spot and answer questions.

01:06:52

But thankful again, Rob, you gave us this opportunity to host tonight.

01:06:59

Any of you guys got any closing comments? One -minute closing comment. Let's start with Tyler.

01:07:06

Tyler, start your timer. One -minute closing comments on the importance of church membership. I would say invest in the body of Christ.

01:07:17

I would say, as we've been talking about all night, be rooted in this community, even with the hard stuff, even when it gets complicated and messy, that we invest in people, that this is important, this is worth the work.

01:07:34

Amen. Rob, why is church membership important? Local church membership. Yeah, I would just echo that.

01:07:41

I know we've talked a lot about having names on roles, but those names on roles, we have responsibility from Scripture to be involved.

01:07:51

And so I would echo what Tyler was saying, that if you join a church, become a church member, dig into Scripture and obey

01:07:59

Christ. Amen. Dan, why is church, local church membership important?

01:08:06

Local church membership is important because God has given us a group of people to work with in order to push each other closer to Christ, to remind each other of the gospel, to uplift each other, and to go out and build something in the community, which is the kingdom of God.

01:08:27

Now, obviously, God does the actual heavy lifting, but he's called us to go out there and to disciple the nations and to baptize people and command them to do everything that God has told us to do.

01:08:40

It gives meaning and purpose to your life. It's something to do.

01:08:47

It's what God's called you to do. If he called you to do it, it's not going to disappoint. Amen.

01:08:52

Amen. And Jesse, switching gears, question. Who's the head of the church?

01:08:59

Christ. Christ is the head of the church, man. That's right. Not the Pope, man. Not the

01:09:04

Pope. That's right. Many members? Many members. One body.

01:09:09

One body. Right. What's the importance of the local church? Jesse. You know, I really have that person who's on the fence.

01:09:19

I have him in mind because there's many people out there that are on the fence about joining the church, and I want to direct this last second to them.

01:09:30

Listen, you know, the secular world is going to give you despair.

01:09:36

That's the result of secularism. It gives you despair. The church, the gospel, because of the gospel, it's going to give you hope.

01:09:45

It's going to give you hope. Amen. You know what I mean? And you cannot find that hope outside of the church, and that's because the church has the gospel.

01:09:56

Amen. And that's part of God's plan is to use the church to spread the gospel, spread the hope.

01:10:03

So if you're thinking that you can find hope in the world, you know what I mean? You cannot. You can only find despair, deep, dark despair.

01:10:13

And if you're looking for hope, you're not going to find it. There's no hope in the world. You know what I mean? There's no salvation outside of Jesus.

01:10:19

You cannot have God as your father without having the church as your mother. I think somebody said that.

01:10:26

Amen. Guys, thank you. Rob, lead us out.

01:10:32

Tell us about the hope, the head. Yeah, we have no greater desire, any of us, than people, others coming to know

01:10:40

Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, God saving them. And so just as Ray Comfort said, we don't know that we need a cure until we know that we have a problem.

01:10:53

And so we follow scripture and let the law lead us to Christ. And how do we do that?

01:10:59

Well, we look at God's law, which reflects his character and who he is and his requirements of perfection.

01:11:06

And we see that we have broken all of his commandments. If you break it down, we've broken every single one of them.

01:11:13

But just to reassure you, we have all lied. We have all stolen, no matter its value.

01:11:19

We've all looked with lust. We've all dishonored our parents.

01:11:24

We've all blasphemed in some way. And the list goes on and on and on. We have broken God's law.

01:11:30

And James chapter two, verse 10 says, if we've kept the whole law and yet even stolen at one point, we're guilty of it all.

01:11:36

So we need a Savior. We need rescuing. We need someone outside of us to come in and deliver us and rescue us because we can't do it ourselves.

01:11:47

We are, as Jesse said, we are in deep, dark despair being in the world and God in his mercy and his kindness to glorify himself and to love us, sent forth his one and only son that everyone believing in him might not perish, but have everlasting life.

01:12:07

Scripture calls us to repent of our sin, turn from our sin and put our faith and trust in Jesus Christ.

01:12:13

And there's no greater gift to us to hear that you have repented of your sins, put your faith and trust in Jesus Christ.

01:12:23

And that's how God brings most glory to himself is saving wretches, saving his own enemies.

01:12:31

And we would encourage you and exhort you to repent of your sins and put your faith and trust in Jesus Christ tonight.

01:12:38

Amen. Amen. So guys, hang out here for just a minute. We'll play the outro and we'll end the broadcast.