April 30, 2020 Show with Michael Hammer on “One Man’s Journey From Secular Judaism to Reformed Baptist Theology by God’s Sovereign Grace”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

It's iron sharpens iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us.

Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to

have in view in conversation To make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours.

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions, and now here's your host Chris

Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity

living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron Radio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Thursday.

On this 30th day of April 2020 once in a blue moon we

have a listener Who becomes a guest on iron sharpens iron radio, and I

was so blessed Not long ago receiving a very lengthy letter From a

listener who was informing me just how much this program blesses him.

Which is a blessing to me that I can't even describe in the English language.

But it also turns out this Listener has a fast and fascinating story to tell about his own

life and the journey that he has taken from secular Judaism

to reform Baptist theology and The sovereignty of God.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time the iron sharpens iron radio.

Michael Hammer.

Thank you for inviting me on the show.

Opportunity to talk about in hopes

that by those.

That's quite.

All right.

For your great mercy upon her and died

on the cross to free us from we

pray.

Edifying.

Presented clearly and accurately.

And above all that your name would be glorified.

Amen.

Amen.

And one of the reasons that I wanted Michael to give his testimony today. Is

that he as I already Let you know from the theme of our program today from

secular Judaism to reform Baptist theology and the sovereignty of God.

He is Theologically reformed and that is something that is extremely rare

amongst Jewish Christians the vast majority being in Dispensationalist

churches and so on are coming from a dispensational background and obviously Since one of my greatest

heroes alive on the planet Earth is John MacArthur I have no ill

will towards my dispensationalist brothers and sisters, but it just so happens that I am not from that

point of view and I love the doctrines and the

theology and the eschatology that I Embrace and and not going to

shy away from them.

So I take advantage of programs like this to to Just tell the story of

somebody who came to embrace the similar Theology that I have today myself

well, first of all when you say that you were raised in secular

Judaism and and by the way, our guest although he lives in Princeton, New Jersey today is

originally from The Bronx and then he moved to Long Island

as a child but When you say you were raised in secular Judaism.

Exactly.

What does that mean?

Obviously, it's Right on the face of the term there you were

not some kind of a deep your family was not a Deeply religious Orthodox Jewish

family or anything of that nature.

It was Much more nominal, but if you could explain in your own words.

Yeah, Chris, it

was more

of a cultural

Judaism

certain

holidays for

years.

They

remember the

first day we went

our parents went out there to look friends that

I had growing up secular

Jews like myself.

They're conservative Orthodox background

because for Sukkot which is a festival they would put a time

in that non -jewish friends

and My childhood

never once a

jurative

about of

us.

I

could

Hanukkah and each day there would be a small gift for each of myself and my brothers and Then

on the last day there would be a

big my two

younger brothers and if I could I'd like to talk a little bit about

that that started the preparation for that started at the age of 11 and It

involved having a teacher come into my house and

they're in my

age that were to

say that at the

end of those two While I could read Hebrew fluently in terms of

pronouncing the words.

Off of the written page.

My understanding.

Now just to

interrupt you for a second.

Is that a common thing for.

Somebody raised in a Nominal secular Jewish home to to learn Hebrew.

I.

Really couldn't speak to that.

It was my personal your brothers

had

great

and just out of

curiosity.

At this point in your life when you're a kid and You are as you described yourself a

secular Jew and most of your friends would be in that category.

Did you give any thought to God at all?

Did you wonder?

What God was like or did you perhaps have some doubts whether he existed?

Tell us something about that.

At this point in your life when you're a teenager.

I can't really if that happened over 55 years

ago somewhat vague at the time.

Teaching being really

focused.

How did

you

know.

Either

in your

neighborhood or.

And I believe you mentioned your mother's side of the family, but I can't

remember exactly the description you gave.

But did you know any truly religious Jews or Orthodox Jews.

That made you wonder why you were different than them why they had a greater afar greater

zeal.

To learn more from the Torah and the The as you called them the

Holy Scriptures that we would call the Old Testament.

I can give you a one -word answer to that and it's it's now in all honesty to be honest with you.

I have never really.

Glad so you pick up where you left off about being bar mitzvahed and.

Your journey from there, okay, so on the day of my bar mitzvah.

Talk about clueless.

My parents woke me up one morning.

Book

calendar

that turns out

that was November 12th

1966 the

the

Saturday

after my my

birthday.

A very

orthodox

temp at in

the back

together found out what

it said.

The

Event.

Even

secular.

Gin.

And that's pretty much the way my child

would go to.

I left for college I

think.

God and

the birds and the trees and things like home.

Romans one, but the that only leaves us with no excuse.

Exactly. I

saw the

straw.

Why.

But that's

not well,

you got my

curiosity.

Anyway, I

ultimately

selected

Colorado

State for

university.

I

also

went to

yeah.

Yeah

somebody

afterwards

and

At the end of the school year I found out some rather shocking things.

The first one

magically, he was aside

and even attempts at

it and no one better

and he told me he no

longer but and He well, he's busy saying like

I really can no longer believe it.

He's encouraging me to continue believing to

believe in that's interesting.

It was a very very Strange thing, but I need to step back a little bit here because I

skipped over something.

Yeah, I think you skipped over the point where you were saved.

Yeah, in

fact, I know a.

Number of Jewish Christians who are far more Jewish

than their Nominal Jewish families.

Are they they.

Because they have actually fallen in love with the biblical history of their

people and They take seriously These Old Testament stories

and these these ceremonies and holy days and so on.

So it's kind of interesting.

Yeah, and and one

of the things that I found

and you know.

Where you

know, why why would you?

Codify in writing all of the horrible things that were done.

I mean right in the northern kingdom of Israel.

Didn't have a single good king who.

I think it was right, and so this is.

Very interesting to me.

Back that but yeah, yeah that that

actually is a sign of the.

Authenticity of the scriptures is exactly that the heroes Recorded

within the pages of scriptures are shown Warts and all those that have warts

of obviously Jesus Christ didn't have any warts.

I'm not talking about skin blemishes.

I'm talking about sin, but the vast majority of

of all Of the figures and heroes in the scriptures have their their

sins laid bare for us.

There's only there's only a couple of Joseph from the Old Testament, I can't recall

Anything that was revealed about him that it was sinful but we know that he was a

sinner and that all men and women and children are sinners other than Christ himself, but

If you actually if you could pick up where you left off there sure.

The other thing and I pointed this out to my parents later on when I was trying to witness to

this God.

Right, but doesn't it?

Doesn't that have some kind of similarity to a cluster of grapes?

There's some like it's a unity and a plurality simultaneously.

I view it as a Trinity.

I think it's a clear picture of the trinity.

Oh, of course.

Well, that's creation.

That's what I meant really though that there was.

There's a plurality and a unity sonal simultaneous.

Simultaneously there and it happens three times in creation in the fall and in an entire Babel.

And we know that angels are not capable of creative powers.

That's only God can do that.

Have

that

in

it,

so

I brought

out the try

and fool

incredible

per singular.

It's really

true.

I have heard this.

Is it true that in at least in the the Orthodox synagogues.

That they never read that song.

No, I don't mean that.

I'm sorry.

Not the psalm.

They never read Isaiah 53.

Yeah, I've heard things to that effect, but

I've never I've never

my

Christians in a certain matter.

I don't remember the exact wording but I was a little bit

and before we go any further and.

Try not to lose your place there, but I'll be fine.

When you were encountering in college these Christians who

had you join them for vigorous religious discussion and and so on

did you ever.

Were you ever?

Insulted.

By the fact that they Claimed you needed something else in your

life to receive eternal life namely of course a belief

in Jesus Christ of Nazareth and a trust in him and

a Placement of Your trust where he is your only?

Hope for eternal life and so on.

It was this something that you found?

How you know did you ever think how dare you think that?

Your way is the only way and that I would not be included in this.

This is no.

It's actually not at all and not not to my recollection.

I'm a kind of person who can recognize that

other

people have

different

perspectives on

thing.

Amen.

You know obviously revealing you are reformed.

That's clearly presented in 1st Corinthians chapter 2 verse 14.

Yes and.

Well, obviously there's a difference though between recognizing That other

people have different religions in the ideologies and philosophies and viewpoints

there's a difference between that and When those that you've become fond of that you're interacting with

believe that you are dead wrong.

There's that where the difference is where they need where they Believe, you know, they believe you need to

repent of what you are holding on to And abandon it and come to

Christ and when I say that folks I'm not saying that he

Had to nor do I believe any Jew needs to abandon being a Jew.

I don't mean that at all.

Jew will always be a Jew.

Jesus was a Jew the vast majority's vast majority of the early

disciples were Jews and they never stopped being Jews, but they became born again and they became

followers of Christ and they became Christian and I am one of those folks that

I have no difficulty using the term Christian Jew because

That everybody No matter if you're a Jew or Gentile if you come to Christ, you're a Christian.

I don't know how you feel about that but there are some Jewish believers who dislike

that they will say that they are completed Jews and They will never use the word

convert and things like that.

But I Don't to myself

as a completed Jew

if you have that and

amen.

Well, we're gonna go to our first break right now if you could remember where you want to sure pick up in your story when we return from

our Commercial break.

And by the way folks.

This is one of those very rare Iron sharpens iron radio broadcasts where we are not

taking questions for our guest.

Perhaps later if he cares to provide an email address or you could even send me emails

when I can.

Forward them to him if you want to.

Be involved in interaction and asking questions with him later on, but they will not be a part of the live

broadcast.

So don't go away.

God willing.

We're gonna be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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If you live near Franklin, Tennessee and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes.

Are you are visiting this area or you have friends and loved ones nearby?

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Tell the folks at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa

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The coronavirus pandemic has rapidly changed our way of life, bringing so many

uncertainties.

When will it end?

Why do disasters like this happen?

How do we deal with anxiety, fear and the like?

Well, join us each Friday on the program Iron Sharpens Iron with your host Chris Arnzen

and Pastor Joe Jackiewicz as they explore God's Word for answers to this and other of

life's related issues.

Tune in at firstloveradio .org.

That's firstloveradio .org each Friday at 1 p .m. Pacific,

4 p .m. Eastern.

That's Iron Sharpens Iron on firstloveradio .org.

Fridays 1 p .m. Pacific, 4 p .m. Eastern to hear what the Bible has to say

about.

Pandemics and how we should respond.

So don't forget to tune in tomorrow folks to hear Joe Jackiewicz.

Give us updates on the coronavirus and also give biblical application on how we

Christians should respond to this pandemic.

And by the way, Joe Jackiewicz is another one of these wonderful folks that I've mentioned

Who is Jewish?

But came to embrace Reformed theology and as a reformed Baptist pastor in

California.

And as I said that just so happens to be a very rare phenomenon today.

We are interviewing today someone who started out as a very

avid listener to Iron Sharpens Iron radio and He

has become a guest and that happens once in a while and I'm speaking of Michael

Hammer from Princeton, New Jersey who is a Jewish believer and is also a

reformed Baptist.

And If you could pick up right where you left off in your journey before we went to the break.

Michael, okay.

Well, we were left of Isaiah and I just went on

prophecy far more verses in the Bible besides Isaiah.

Medical

biology.

And you once

worked for the bear

corporation

for

23 years for Baron before that

and

election.

Consider

macro evolution.

The idea that all

cell organism

is rather Unbelievable.

I guess you have to have great and

part of

that comes from

plus cell

that we're

aware of in

order for life to Exist in by life.

What I mean is Something that's capable like we're dealing

with the crow

that is

like that obviously had the same

time I got my personal opinion is that viruses that yes, and I just

found out.

I don't know if you heard my interview with dr. Banu Gadi the Pharmacist on Long Island.

Yes, I listen to that.

Yes, and I found out during my interview with him for the first time that a virus was not a living thing.

And no and it's interesting how when they refer to the virus in the media

you Would you would get the impression that they're speaking of something living that they speak about

killing it and you know.

All that kind of thing.

But anyway, I'm actually you inactivate a virus.

You don't really kill it.

Right, right.

Right, but people tend to use

terribly seriously.

Because you know as a scientist, I understand the

differential look

at that say I

have an that brings

old

membrane

Manufacturing processes

and

things that

to a

butterfly.

How can

that

transformation

ever occur by gradual step?

And

there

are

many other

creatures.

Yeah, the

thing about.

Darwinian evolution is that it is not scientific.

I like the way can him during his debate with

What's his first name nine Phil my bill my bill my the so -called science guy.

Who was an engineer by the way, not a scientist, right, right and.

He and and Ken Ham kept referring to the creationist understanding

of science as observable science.

You cannot Replicate in a laboratory anything that these Darwinian evolutionists

believe in when it comes to The transformation of one species to another etc.

I mean these are all.

In fact, it's interesting.

I chuckle every time I hear a liberal Talk about the facts of Darwinian

evolution.

They still call it the theory of evolution folks.

I didn't.

I've never seen the the newspaper headline where they finally Have proven

after all these years that Darwin Darwin's theory of evolution is fact.

But it is obviously just a theory and a very unscientific

one and

furthermore, it doesn't even

address

the front

cell and

Then have the

ability

to

replicate.

It

was falling

apart.

Five

if you're like

thing

about evolution.

And that's

the whole

concept

of

so when we

come

back

from

our midway break.

We're going into our midway break right now, which is the one that's longer than the other breaks because grace

life radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida Requires of us a longer break in the middle of the

show because they Have to air their own public service announcements and other things that localize

Iron sharpens iron to Lake City, Florida and while they do that we air our own lot

globally heard commercials.

But before we do that just want You to when we come back from the

break bring us to the point where You were overwhelmed

With the fact that Jesus Christ was and is who he says

he is and that you needed to bow the knee to him and that you needed to

repent and follow him and as You may have heard me say

before folks. We are not taking Questions during this broadcast as we normally do.

It's a very rare exception That we don't take questions but

you can feel free to write down questions and submit them to me for

For me to pass on to our guests and if he would like to interact with you on your questions That would be

fine, but we are not taking questions during the broadcast today.

But I would appreciate you writing down as much of the information provided by as many of our advertisers as you can.

Because keep in mind We cannot exist on the air without the financial support of our

advertisers.

And obviously the more frequently our listeners reach out to them and patronize them.

Obviously, they're going to be more motivated to remain our advertisers.

Which will mean that we will more than likely remain on the air because they are continually

supporting us with their finances, so write down that information and

Please be patient with us as we take this longer break.

Don't go away.

We will be right back with more of Michael hammer and his journey from secular Judaism to reform.

When iron sharpens iron radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the New American

Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors.

It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the iron sharpens iron radio audience have been

sticking with or Switching to the NASB.

I'm dr. Joseph Piper.

President and professor of systematic and homiletical theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary

in Taylors, South Carolina and.

The NASB is my Bible of choice.

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Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Trumpets Iron Radio on the air.

Pastors.

Are your pew Bibles tattered and falling apart?

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB and tell the publishers you heard about them

from Chris Arnzen on Iron Trumpets Iron Radio.

Go to NAS Bible calm.

That's NAS Bible calm to place your order.

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries and the dividing line webcast here.

Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach preach and debate at numerous venues some of my

very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with pastor Rich Jensen and the Brethren at Hope

Reform Baptist Church now located at their new beautiful facilities in Coram, Long Island, New York.

I've had the privilege of opening God's Word from their pulpit on many occasions.

Have led youth retreats for them and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my New York debates.

I do not hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island to anyone who wants to be

accurately taught Discipled and edified by the Holy Scriptures and to be surrounded by truly loving

and caring brothers and sisters in Christ.

I also want to congratulate Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram for the recent appointment of pastor Rich Jensen's co -elder

Pastor Christopher McDowell.

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church go to Hope Reformed Li .net that's

Hope Reformed Li .net or call six three one six nine six five seven one

one.

That's six three one six nine six five seven one one.

Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island that you heard about them from James White on Iron

Sharpens Iron Radio.

Chris Sorensen host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here.

I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years.

His name is Dan Buttafuoco.

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Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself.

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Hi, this is John Sampson pastor of Kings Church in Peoria, Arizona.

Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the iron sharpens iron podcast.

I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity.

He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key

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As host of iron sharpens iron radio I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in

Flemington, New Jersey pastored by Alan Dunn.

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshipped and how he

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They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

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Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a God -centered focus.

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Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on iron sharpens iron radio.

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The coronavirus pandemic has rapidly changed our way of life bringing so many

uncertainties.

When will it end?

Why do disasters like this happen?

How do we deal with anxiety fear and the light?

Will join us each Friday on the program iron sharpens iron.

With your host Chris Arnzen and pastor Joe Jackowitz as they explore God's Word for

Answers to this and other of life's related issues.

Tune in at first love radio org.

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That's iron sharpens iron on first love radio dot org.

Friday's 1 p .m. Pacific 4 p .m Eastern to hear what the Bible has to say

about pandemics and how we should respond.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said give yourself unto reading.

The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

Solid ground Christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the Prince of Preachers to heart.

The mission of solid ground Christian books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and

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Solid ground Christian books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio.

This is pastor Bill Sousa Grace Church at Franklin here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron

sharpens iron radio.

Financially.

Grace Church at Franklin is an independent autonomous body of believers.

It strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture.

Through the person and work of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And of course the end of which we strive is the glory of God.

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe ten minutes.

Are you are visiting this area or you have friends and loved ones nearby?

We hope you will join us some Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior.

Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church.

Our website is Grace Church at Franklin org.

That's Grace Church at Franklin.

Dot o -r -g.

This is pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our Sovereign

Lord God Savior and King Jesus Christ today and always.

And pastor Bill Sousa joins us this coming Friday, no, I'm sorry this coming Monday

That would be May 4th As he returns as a guest and we have not yet determined

the topic.

But I'm sure it will be fascinating whatever pastor Bill decides to speak on that's Monday,

May 4th and On Tuesday, May 5th.

We've got dr. Joe more craft returning to iron sharpens iron radio for part four of

our discussion on his book with liberty and justice for all Christian politics made simple and

Then on Wednesday, May the 6th, we've got Dr. David C Ennis

who's discussing his book also on politics Christ and the kingdoms of men

foundations of political life.

That is this Wednesday May 6th and then we have my dear

friend pastor Bill Shishko of the Haven which is a congregation of the Orthodox

Presbyterian Church denomination in Deer Park, Long Island, New York and We have yet

to determine the topic for pastor Bill and then I'm so excited that on Friday May

8th, dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries returns to this program as our guest

and we are Going to be taking a one -day break from our weekly

Coronavirus updates with Joe Jackowitz on that Friday so we could accommodate

Dr. White's schedule, so please mark your calendars for Friday, May 8th 4 to

6 p .m.

When dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries returns to iron sharpens iron radio and We have not yet

determined a topic for him either but with so many things going on in the world We

actually wanted to wait till closer to the to the interview To pick a topic because there might be

things going on that would demand our attention in this crazy world that we live in.

I thought I'd also throw in a plug for the following Monday's interview

on Monday, May 11th Dr. Kurt Daniel returns to the

program for part three of our discussion of his book the

history and theology of Calvinism and I'll give you a heads up folks.

If you send in a good question, if you're one of the first six people to submit a question a

Good question that's good enough to put on the air.

You will get a free copy of this beautiful 900 page hardback the history and

theology of Calvinism and of course, we've got guests Throughout the remainder of May

that we hope that you will hear and be edified by here on iron sharpens iron radio

before we return to our guest today Michael Hammer who is from Princeton, New Jersey, and who is a

avid listener of iron sharpens iron radio and he is Blessing us today by

giving us his story about how he went on a journey Through the guidance of the Holy Spirit

from secular Judaism to reform Baptist theology and Sovereign grace and

before we return to that journey That Michael is guiding us through.

Just have a couple of announcements a couple of more announcements to make.

First of all folks if you love this show and you don't want us to go away.

You don't want us to disappear from the airwaves.

We need your help.

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By going to iron sharpens iron radio comm click support then click click to donate now you could donate instantly

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Also folks if you are not a member of a local Bible believing church.

And you're not even prayerfully looking one looking for one.

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Please rectify that situation.

I understand that there are Reasons why people have delayed

Becoming connected and joining a local church because they've been so horribly burned in the past.

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So, please if you need help finding a church near you.

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Chris Arnson at gmail .com and I will try to be of help to you in finding a

Church that is honoring to God.

We are now back with our guest today Michael Hammer from Princeton, New Jersey.

He is one of those rare folks who begins as an avid listener of Iron

Trip and Zion radio and Then becomes a guest on this program to share with us

his testimony, which I am riveted to and Just out of curiosity.

I forgot to ask you in the beginning of the show.

How did you first discover Iron Trip and Zion radio Michael?

I'm not certain.

How long back at this point how long have you been listening.

From almost the beginning I think Oh 2005.

Yeah.

Wow.

Well, I am so delighted and thankful and grateful that

you finally wrote a very long and detailed letter that

Blessed me beyond words and it's so encouraging to know.

Sometimes, you know when you do something like this you wonder am I really making a difference is this is what

I'm doing worth the hours of time that I'm putting into this and Should I

just throw in the towel etc?

But then all sudden God brings to your attention a listener like you Michael who

Just finds this program such a blessing and I am So thankful to get to know you

and also I'm very grateful for your generosity you've Proven to be a very valuable

financial supporter of the program and I hope that We actually get

to meet face to face.

I've already met one of Michael's brothers.

Believe that's Richard, right?

That's correct Richard who is a member Now of the church where I formerly was a

member before Relocating to Pennsylvania grace reform Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, New York.

We just recently had pastor Mark Romaldi on the program one of my former pastors my most

recent former pastor and Richard was not there when I was attending

there Before moving and it was great to get to know him now.

So you're one of three brothers, right?

Yes, I'm the oldest and.

Other than Richard is your other brother believer in Christ?

No in the liberal

right

leftist

totalitarian

Mindset.

I don't know if I could describe him as that.

I really he doesn't like.

Well where there's

life.

There's hope.

Not too long ago.

He told me he was so really he said.

But don't get your hopes up.

I'm reading well, there have been many people who have come to Christ on that

Futile mission that they're on that disproved the Bible.

Hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

Amen.

And how about your folks?

My mom passed away back in 2015.

In fact, yes is my friend.

Dr. Lutton my friend.

Dr. Latane C

Scott.

And I don't know if I'm quoting her exactly but I loved what she said recently on this program.

She said we do not Know what is going on?

Behind the closed eyelids of those on their deathbed

Who have yet to depart from the earth?

So we were on your journey where you were seeing more and more evidence that led you to

see more and more of the validity of what the scriptures taught and I believe we were last

speaking about how Evolution the the fallacy of Darwinian evolution

Made you even more Convinced of the Bible's authenticity.

So if you want to pick up where you left off there.

I try on the issue of the age of the universe which is old

earthers who claim Christ as their Savior.

Then yeah an

organization

that no six

thousand years old

what the

phenomenally

fast

speed by

our

standards.

But when you consider the

vastness

of the size

of the

universe the

speed of light.

Getting the

universe which would allow

for.

And

another

person that I would

recommend right in time

solving the puzzle.

And that's

to

Vermont

a

person

who was

an

acquaintance

of my first

roommate.

Wow I've gotten

jobs

that it

now

when you

say

you

were

almost

derailed

by this.

Likely suicide Derailed is the key word here.

Were you at this point?

A Convinced Christian.

Were you a born -again believer?

I believe I was but I was doubts that

people

have

sometimes

in their

lives.

Was there any was a.

More crucial or more Explosive if you will in

your journey when you finally realized I Can't

continue to play these These games as far as just

bantering about Religious

Possibilities and and you know bantering with friends about the differences of

our religion and ideology and just thinking that it's fine and dandy just to

maintain a position of Neutrality was there a point where you said

Jesus Christ is truly my God and my Messiah and I must

bow the knee to him and.

That sort of thing.

Yeah going back in 72 after

many many.

Did you hear

that Lachman Foundation the sponsors?

How did you

break that

news

to your

non -believing

Jewish family.

Well, I

did not confess Christ

to them to

cover that in just me.

Yeah.

Sure I just want to mention to that, you know when we with

Ray Comfort.

Oh.

Yeah, in fact, I've interviewed Ray on the program.

Unfortunately.

Only believer.

By the way, I'm sorry, I'm pretty sure Ray Comfort came from a Jewish background.

Oh, I didn't know that but unfortunately whenever Ray comes on which has only been I believe twice He

insists upon very short interviews.

I'd love to have a month for at least an hour someday.

Yeah, and.

He has that thing a good person test that he does with people that he meets on the right.

Yeah, that

that was.

You know, it's

stand before him without somebody

covering

you can't.

I'll

good

friend

somebody

I'd known since I was seven.

He was six years old and

he

goes Mike.

This was one of your secular Jewish friends.

No, he's not

Jewish.

This guy was an Italian family

friend again.

He got caught up in the Cal camping heresy.

Oh.

Yeah, in fact, I remember reading in your Bio that

that's how you discovered James White was through a book dangerous airwaves Christ

Church defended.

How I can't been refuted in Christ Church defended.

That's right, which is a book that I actually Urged James to write and in fact,

I'm the one that came up with the title for the book.

And I also yeah, I also designed the artwork for the cover.

Uh -huh with the.

I've got the book right in front of me here.

It's like an old style.

Great to radio.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah, right.

In fact there was a Woman and grace reform Baptist Church Who said that she

had to tear the cover off because it was terrifying her child.

Actually, I wanted to go back and respond to something since we brought up dr. White one of the things that.

Listeners that I knew.

Catholic theologians, that's what I first found out about you and that led me to finding iron

sharpens iron.

From my emceeing the debates, yeah.

Now a lot of people have discovered this show from that.

Yep, my third and fourth year of Kyle

friend who had his

sudden profession of faith and.

Repentance, I assume you mean verbally attacking.

Well, you know.

He was a bad person and stuff like that and and I just couldn't sit there anymore and listen to them attacking

him for his Christianity.

Always great to bring stuff like that up when there are sharp utensils within reach.

Yeah, and glass and hot liquid.

Thankfully, nobody actually got physical over it.

My dad Tried to say well I taught you to be a free thinker and I replied well, you

know, you're right at some things.

Well, you're a good person.

You don't need Jesus.

He needs Jesus because it's a crutch for him, but then I said I'm not a good person.

My brother Richard me so angry.

How can you believe this?

How can you bend stuff like that and and bring back brought back

to mind that passage in the Bible be either

hot or cold?

Well, it's

very close.

Yeah, and I later got

married.

He'd come out.

Amen.

Isn't it amazing how either?

Even in a secular Jewish home I'm assuming it wasn't

kosher.

No, we weren't kosher and that you just said Hanukkah and things that you

mildly Celebrated for some traditions sake.

Yeah, but isn't it interesting even in an atmosphere like that the hostility that Can

explode from someone in that family's faith in Christ.

I know another Jewish believer who was a male stripper and

His family had no problem with that his secular Jewish family.

They were not kosher.

They didn't go to synagogue.

They You know that a very

Secular understanding of the Jewish Holy Days and an observance of them

and yet when he became a Christian they became vehemently

angry and hateful towards him and Actually set Shiva for him

mourned him like he was dead and his mother

Was when he attended a funeral of a family member his mother actually physically

attacked his Gentile Christian wife right in the funeral parlor and had to be pulled

physically off of her.

Do you think what do you think that is?

I mean, do you think a lot of it has to do with?

With not only Christians have been the enemies of the Jews that the old

story where every one who has called themselves Christian throughout history is deemed as a

real representative of the faith like Hitler and and other people even though it wanted to.

Tell her was really no based on the issue of Hitler because that's one of the things for my family.

Some of that and I also think it's the old saying

mother was a Democrat.

You're going right and they don't

follow in their footsteps.

By the way, I do I do want to quickly because since I brought up Hitler I want to dispel the myth Hitler did not even

profess to be a Christian.

He hated Christianity.

He thought it was impotent and weak and viewed it as just another branch of Judaism.

He was basically involved in the occult.

Yeah, and pagan Nordic paid pagan religion.

Now I actually had that on my list of things to talk about because it's very central to why many Jewish people

Do not.

But we have to go to our final break right now.

It's going to be a lot more.

Quick.

Than the last breaks, so We're going to be right back with more Michael hammer and his

journey from secular Judaism into reformed Baptist theology and

sovereign grace.

This is pastor Bill Sousa Grace Church at Franklin here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support iron

sharpens iron radio Financially.

Grace Church at Franklin is an independent autonomous body of believers Which strives

to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work

of our Lord Jesus Christ and of course the end of all which we strive is the glory

of God.

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes.

Are you are visiting this area or you have friends and loved ones nearby?

We hope you will join us some Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior.

Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

Our website is grace church at Franklin org.

That's grace church at Franklin.

Dot o -r -g.

This is pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign

Lord God Savior and King Jesus Christ today and always.

When I interpret Zion radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the New American

Standard Bible Were among my very first sponsors.

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This orange and host of iron sharpens iron radio here.

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Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said.

Give yourself unto reading.

The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

Solid ground Christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the Prince of Preachers to heart.

The mission of solid ground Christian books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and

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From Chris Arnzen and iron sharpens iron radio.

Now we are now back with our guest today who's proven to be a truly fascinating guest Michael

Hammer from Princeton, New Jersey who started out as an avid fan of iron sharpens iron radio

going back to 2005 when we first launched and Now has become a guest and if

you could We don't have a lot of time left.

We have about 12 minutes.

But if you could just pick up where you wanted to pick up on your journey, you had already

reached the point where you Have become a Christian by the mercy and grace of God and

you've discussed your family's reaction.

And if

you

could

continue of

faith

in

the

Reformed

pre -church

or in

church in

that church

I may

be in my

life.

There was what I

would

call

hiatus.

It's not

that I on

my own.

At some time probably

around each

of the five really

in a Lutheran Church.

Yes.

Yes.

They they are known.

For having varying degrees of great hostility to the tulip.

I would say that this church was functionally Arminian.

Yeah, maybe two points would do it and they would probably

protest that vigorously.

Description.

Initially, I thought

if God being

made the

author of heat of

the

person

never

never got first by verse teaching.

And it would just be a subject that they now was

the part was the person leading the study on the five points of Calvinism.

Presenting it as an opponent of these things or was he being acted as an opponent?

He just basically dove

into the child.

Is he personally a believer in these things of

itself.

The elders would have actually wanted him to be teaching this quite like this.

In fact, I got the sense that this Lutheran Church, which was orthodox for the most part.

They were conservative and I do believe that the people there by and large were true Christians.

Yes, I have a lot of truly regenerate brothers and sisters in Christ.

We're Lutheran and I interview quite a number of Lutheran authors and so on.

So, you know, I kind of lost my train of thought here and

they preached there and they provoked you to study further.

Elders deliberately avoided bringing these subjects up.

They actually avoided it.

Your hermeneutic

is different

from my hermeneutic and that got me really kind of like what is this?

And who is she talking to my wife like that?

And it had to do with all the perspective so I started digging into this and

it just went on for several years.

During that time one of my lynchburg,

Virginia.

Yes, it's all Virginia.

Yeah, I think it started.

This is the one that was founded By a man who actually is not really keen

on reformed theology.

Defending it to me and and between him and my studies ultimately

became

synergistic to

it.

My Perspective now prevenient grace of men and not not scripture.

You can't find it anywhere in the Bible.

That's right.

And and

it great.

Yeah, that's the Armenian

and the Roman Catholic.

Answer to the fact that they both believe in

original sin and They are not Pelagian.

They would be semi Pelagian.

But they don't want to convey the idea that man is pure by

nature before they're Becoming regenerate and they have to come up with some kind

of an answer how they were able to summon up this faith from their corrupt hearts and

minds that saved them.

And Obviously, that's where the invention of prevenient grace

Comes in.

It's like the softer grace that provokes people and gives them an ability

to believe but then it's still up to them and Then the greater grace comes when they're

actually saved after they offer that faith.

But but as you said, it's a fiction.

It's not in the Bible.

All right.

First you have

Romans 828 915 to

create

a vessel

for it is excellent.

For hours and 20 minutes, I gave this to a friend of mine who had never heard of Calvinism, but the doctrines of grace.

He was a relatively new Christian in pages of notes comparing the

remonstrance to the Reformation and Right,

but that is the best tool I've ever seen that DVD series.

Yeah, and the other one is of course, dr White's the Potter's freedom freedom a defensive reformation book.

Yes, and I particularly appreciated dr White's explain

a creaturely will which is spent because of the fall and a

perfect will and as is never well.

We are really out of time if you have a final word in about 30 seconds that you could provide.

I would just encourage People who are not have rejected the

form theology Mr.

Churches of

Christ.

And he

started

talking to me and he's

a

chance to

send a string and

he doesn't understand that.

Right.

Well Michael it has been a joy to have you on today.

I really loved every second of our interview.

I want to thank everybody who listened today.

And if you have any questions for Michael, you could send them to me at Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior Than you

are a sinner.