Responding to Theodore Shoebat on the Dividing Line

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Christian militancy. Reviving the Inquisition. Wiping out heretics. Sound like medievalism? It is, but sadly, when you regularly encounter the medieval behavior of ISIS and Boko Haram and the like, it is easy to forget Christian teaching and adopt a bit of medievalism in response. Evidently, that’s what Theodore Shoebat has done. The son of Walid Shoebat, Theodore has been posting videos on line, and engaging in “debates,” and today on the program we review just a matter of moments of Theodore’s defense of “Catholicism.”

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00:36
And greetings welcome to the dividing line. Oh, there's a new camera angle look at that Yep, that's that it's even got the the lava lamp.
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That's good Let me see here you need the VLC media player so you can see what we're gonna be doing today
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Which is providing a response to Theodore Schubert on a couple issues regarding to Roman Catholicism and We'll see how long that takes maybe we can take some phone calls toward the end
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I don't know the the videos aren't all that long, but the issues are Rather extensive so we will see we will see good to have you with us today
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This evening for those of you who are listening in the Phoenix area, I'm gonna be over at a Paul Ghia Church At I think 730 at least that's it's on Facebook somewhere
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For me, that's like half an hour before bedtime. So that's gonna be really really rough
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You know and Jeff Durbin This even though I've grown my beard a little wider because my wife wants it wider
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I think that ain't even be close to cutting it amongst these really weird anonymous type guys, so We'll see what happens there, but anyway
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Look we all well, maybe some of you aren't maybe some of you are wiser not to but You you can hardly go online these days without seeing
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Horrific videos pictures videos Sometimes Is that a tribble?
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Oh, yes. Yeah, there's trouble. We don't the the
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There's we Will Hoffman need to know if that was a tribble and of course it's trouble
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Now the question is did you all catch the tribble in? The first new
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Star Trek movie most people did not I have had to show people a number of times Where the it was easy to see the trouble in the second new
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Star Trek movie because they had to do the blood thing and Khan and all the rest of that stuff, but If you're a true
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Trekkie Then you saw the trouble in the first Star Trek movie and I'm not gonna tell you where it was right now But it was there
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Almost in the exact almost so the same thing going on there. Well, I guess
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I'm just see I'm just this is this is holding a place Because we've been told hasn't hasn't come yet but we've been told that there'll be something really cool to put there and the
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Not too distant future. Hopefully not distant future at all. We'll see We'll see so anyhow as I was saying, it's serious here for a while The videos that we are seeing the pictures we're seeing of violence in the
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Middle East Some of them you you shouldn't you shouldn't be looking at before going to bed and for some people
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I don't think you should be looking at it at all. You've heard me honest with you. Uh, I saw one yesterday of executions and It's the same cowardly people in their black hoods with their ak -47s shooting people in the back of the head and Having them lay down on the ground and just shooting them repeatedly and it's just You know detestation of these things obviously one of the problems that we're having is
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You will see a video posted and it'll say Muslims kill people for not converting
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Muslims kill Christians for not converting and Then when you dig a little farther or you look a little bit more you discover it's actually sectarian violence
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Muslim on Muslim violence in Syria in Iraq In places like that and so there is
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I do have a concern that I have a concern that We have some issues with with needing to be very very careful in attributing sources and and And so on so forth, but but even take that out the what a hundred and 70 ,000 people who have died in the violence in Syria That you know that the
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Isis group Isis group is obviously just the very essence of Animals, I mean, it's the only way to describe them.
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They are they they are the worst of war criminals and It's very very easy
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Upon watching the Cowardly dastardly behavior of these individuals not only become jaded but To as Christians lose track of where we're supposed to be in regards to how we view these things from a
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Christian worldview and There are some who are becoming
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Downright militant in Basically saying well, we just we just need to do the same thing in reverse.
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We need to You know start our own Christian jihad or to use a more historical term we need to bring back the
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Crusades and There are some real strong voices of people saying that that's what needs to be done
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They're a small minority thankfully, but they're they're still out there With that in mind,
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I I think that explains some of the things that we see on On Coming from certain people with Middle Eastern backgrounds that are here in the
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West. I Forgot I apologize. I just realized as I sat here I had pulled up Some quotations and unfortunately they have
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Disappeared because I didn't I didn't transfer by a dropbox, but I had some
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Quotations I pulled from Theodore Schubert's Facebook page last night and I was
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I was taken aback at the militancy of The commentary. In fact, the second video we're gonna look at was from a
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I Hesitate it's to call these Videos that are cut up into ten parts
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Where someone's talking on a phone a quote -unquote debate, especially when it doesn't seem to be any
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Organization timeframes people are talking over other people, you know, I hesitate to call that kind of thing a debate, but anyways, he calls it a debate and the terminology he used to describe his opponent was
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Strong shall we say the least Referring to him as a heretic and so on and so forth and so As I mentioned
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I was I've been aware of Waleed Chobat for quite some time you you can't deal in the area of Islam very much without encountering
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Waleed Chobat and I I Had looked at some videos When the
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CNN report on him came out. I looked at that. He's got a response to that I Don't trust
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CNN as far as I could throw it especially when dealing with anything regarding Christianity at the same time
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I happen to know that there is a cottage industry of Well a cottage industry of real
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Islamophobia I would I would describe Islamophobia. Let's say let's talk about Islamophobia If You are trying to make everyone afraid of every
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Muslim in the world That would be true Islamophobia. I think that would be
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I Think that would be a good description If you cannot recognize that in a group of a billion people
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There are all sorts of different kinds of people with different perspectives and different understandings and different beliefs
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If you try to say that all of Islam is the same and Fail to recognize those things.
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I have no more respect for that. It's very easy to do by the way I mean, that's if you want to divide people.
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That's how you do it. It's us against them See, you know, it's this us against them type thing
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Problem is man. I really get angry when people do that to me. I I For the
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Crusades When I am held accountable for the pornography of the papacy in Rome When I'm held accountable for the sales of indulgences
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All that kind of stuff and then when I'm held accountable for Westboro Baptist Church or The Episcopalian Church United States ordaining homosexuals and All the liberals who are collapsing on homosexuality marriage abortion, you know
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From the world's perspective. They're all Christians because it's you can just throw everybody into one pile, right?
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Well, no, you can't Does it take Effort and time and energy to differentiate between those groups
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Yep, and we expect it to be done for us. So we've got to do it in return and And so if you can't tell the difference between You can tell a difference even just just look at the people that I've debated
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Amongst Muslims. Can't you can't you discern? Real distinctions between them not only in their positions
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But in in their mindset and and their perspectives if you can't I can that's for sure
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And so I would say Islamophobia is when you try to paint all Muslims With the same broad brush, which would mean that Christophobia would be when you try to do that to Christians.
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I think that was sort of go along the same lines You're you're freaking me out in there playing around with stuff
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Yeah, well, I've got I've got one here. I can I can countermand you if I need to so we can we can play dueling camera things up there, but anyway,
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I Can't hear you You I heard about two words there
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I said mine is suddenly decided to stop working. Oh Well, come and get it
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So anyhow with all that in mind I am Concerned that I see some serious
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Islamophobia on the Shoebat websites because I don't see any any recognition
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That there are Muslims other than the radical bloodthirsty animals
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That we see going after the Yazidi right now and killing Christians and and fellow
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Muslims Right left and center. I mean, these are obviously demonic people but when you turn when you then leave that reality and Make it an us versus them get your swords kill everybody that looks like them
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Attitude and mindset that's when things really really go wrong So what happened was last sometime
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Well today's Thursday. So yeah last What a week ago or Friday somewhere around in that time time period
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I Forget how I was informed about this video
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Whether it was a tweet or an email or exactly what it was Anyway, I saw this video
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Islam is a form of Protestantism by Theodore shoe, but a Theodore is Waleed's son and I Listened to it and I was like Really?
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Wow, that's really not good argumentation And so I thought well, let's do it
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Over this weekend, let's try to find some time to do a Screen flow video something like that.
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Just something real quick to respond to a couple points. Well, I didn't get that time I was I was preaching for three weeks in a row and I Just I just sent out an email with my schedule for this fall to my fellow elder so we can arrange things and Wow Have I have
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I dug myself a deep pit this fall? We are gonna be busy
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We may need to be cultivating some other folks to come in because I'm not sure that even John could keep up with how much traveling
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I'm gonna be doing between You know Kiev and Berlin and South Africa and Glasgow and going back to the
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New York, New Jersey area for a while and Atlanta and then Norway and in January and Whoo, I've really put it out there.
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But anyway So I didn't I didn't get around to it well in the meantime
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Theodore and Sam Shamoon exchanged some Heated conversation and I won't even repeat for you what
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Theodore referred to Sam as But oh you didn't see this oh it was
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Not good to say that the Shoebats do not like me is an understatement
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Because I ignored that and I wrote to while lead directly The response
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I got back was a wildly Disorganized Scattered gun
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Disrespectful in -your -face type Thing that made me go. Well, I know where Theodore got it from It's it seems to be running in the family here, and I'm just like, okay.
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Okay. I'm I'm not interested in food fights okay, I I Try to do serious apologetics and I don't want to know if it's not educational
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You know, we've we've dealt with some pretty silly stuff in the past, but it's not educational then you can't make it educational then
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Might as well move on to something else because there's plenty of stuff out there So I decided
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Then shortly, I don't know when the second video was produced. I forgot to look at it, but or when this debate took place but Someone on Twitter.
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I do remember this Yesterday, I believe pointed out to me the second part of this debate and I come up in it and lo and behold
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Amazingly amazingly It's the same. It's the absurdity all over again.
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It's it's the same thing that that We've did
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Bob Enyart pulled and I guess it's just gonna become a meme, you know see how many people you can lie to about this thing and and and and you know go from there could
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See if you can shock people That there are actually people in the world that believe that God decreed all things that take place in time anybody got the
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London yeah, here's here's here's the London Baptist Confession, but this is
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I believe word -for -word the same as If I recall correctly the
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Westminster Confession of Faith Which says from all eternity God decreed all it should happen in time and this he did freely and unalterably
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Consulting only his own wise and holy will gosh. I actually believe my own confession of faith
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How can that be and of course then they got to pervert that into other things which again is standard fair But since that's in the second part then
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I want I did want to respond to that and as I said, both these are fairly short, so The primary discussion here is it seems the
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Shoebats are now Roman Catholics if they haven't been received into the church They certainly are acting like they have been And are defending
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Romanism, but they do so out of this Catholicism the
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Catholic Church fought the Muslims and so we need to do the same thing and we need to all be together type of a perspective and the problem is
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This is all based upon an extremely naive Extremely imbalanced view of history just as most of the discussion of the
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Crusades Doesn't take into consideration all of the background and history of the
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Crusades and what Muslims were doing and what Muslims at the Time viewed it as and all the rest that stuff
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It just seems that what we've got here is a real good example of when you get into a tug -of -war a
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Tug -of -war is going to mean that you're not balanced any longer because you're pulling this direction. They're pulling that direction the center is there and Just like when you have people who deal only with Islam or only with Mormonism or only with whatever group
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You're Always gonna end up with some kind of imbalance and that's that's what we have here, especially with the view of the church as you're gonna see but we're gonna have to repeat over and over again looking at this is well
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Those were Catholics back then all the people, you know He's gonna say right here that what
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Islam was reacting against was Catholicism Well, that's a naive view of the church
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Would they have called themselves Catholics sure they would have called themselves Catholics did that have the same meaning then is it as today?
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No, it did not What dogmatically defined a person as a
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Catholic in the 7th century? Has changed are there core issues that are the same?
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Of course their core issues are the same But they're also core issues that have changed specifically in regards to materialogy
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Mariology and the dogmatic content of What is now the
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Roman Catholic Church that's why I've said so many times that there is no one at the Council and I see ya who could have had any idea of What a modern
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Roman Catholic definition of what it means to be a Roman Catholic would be Including submission to some Pope and all the
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Marian dogmas and the developments of doctrines like indulgences and purgatory thesaurus meritorium the whole concept of Transubstantiation the mass which had not even developed that time and real presence is not the same thing
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Put it in context doggone it look at the debates. We've done all that kind of stuff, but they just ignore that and It's it's the hey remember when
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John Paul II died for how many days did we have every Roman Catholic apologist?
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and You know jumping on Fox News for there are 15 minutes of fame talking about the 2 ,000 year old church and Once again
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Apostolic succession if it has any validity at all has to be a succession of truth and content not of any type of historical lineage and If you don't teach and in fact if you in some cases anathematize
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What the Apostles did teach you're not their successors You can put up all the monuments to yourself you want because I could change anything
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Serious concern about teaching and believing what the Apostles taught and believed Will not lead you to Roman Catholicism, so let's let's take a listen
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To we'll just start and stop you've got the feed Feed there ready to go all right.
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Let's Let's dive in here Giving you guys another message that you will not hear in church.
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I guarantee that There's a reason for that There's a reason you won't hear this in church.
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I will say that Remember when we reviewed
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Walid's article about those damned Catholics The one
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One of the germs of truth is That they both say Modern -day evangelicals of Protestants ignore church history.
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Hey anyone ever heard me say that Yeah, just just a little bit.
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I'm telling me talking about a subject that is very sensitive Protestantism and Islam, what do they have in common well?
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the reason why we never really connect Protestantism with Islam is because Protestantism has been identified with With the
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Orthodox beliefs that we as Americans and we as Christians normally accept We as Americans Reminds me it's it's all scary to me very scary to me
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When Christianity becomes nationalized Al Mohler handed and culture her head on a platter this morning
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For doing the same thing or Basically Americanizing the
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Christian faith and I can guarantee Theodore that when it comes to a serious belief in the
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Trinity if if 10 %
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Of the American population actually really believes that I would be shocked I'd be shocked
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Seriously and I mean really believes it because see if you don't if you don't worship God if you don't
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Reckon if you don't even understand what it is and your worships not impacted by it Then you don't really believe it you can tell the
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Pew Research guys that you believe in God the Father God the Son God the Holy Spirit There's lots of liberal denominations to continue to say that they don't believe it
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Because they don't believe that it's a revealed truth from God, but so I'm I get really
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Really Nervous when people start
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Americanizing Christianity because Christianity existed before America It'll exist after America crucifixion the virgin birth
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The Trinity things like such as that the incarnation all of these beliefs we commonly accept and when people reject them such such
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As cults like the Mormons or the Jehovah's Witnesses we shun the Mormons We shun the Jehovah's Witnesses because we say well their heretics.
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Well, and it's correct They are heretics, but why do we shun them because these cults don't accept the
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Creed. They don't accept the Apostles Creed And this well, I would say there's a lot of reasons why we do not engage in fellowship with Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses their refusal to affirm
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Biblical teachings that are universal amongst Christians quite true there are also other reasons including their acceptance of other forms of authority or scripture or all sorts of Things along those lines and it's not that we just shun them
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We then seek to evangelize them and bring the message of the gospel to the
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Apostles Creed was established and concluded and really deduced by the
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Catholic Church and By what Church? What when you when you say this was done by the
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Catholic Church obviously in Theodore's mind he's talking about the Roman Catholic Church, but when the essence of the
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Apostles Creed begins to be discernible in The earliest patristic sources there is no such thing as a
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Roman Catholic Church, and nobody would have even understood the terminology There there was a bishop of Rome, but he wasn't considered to be the universal head of Church Again at that and this would be before the
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Council of Nicaea There was no one who believed dogmatically what you have to believe to be a
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Roman Catholic today at that time there are all sorts of things that Rome teaches as as De Fide dogma today that had not even begun to develop at that time or If they had begun to develop were in their most nascent stages so What do you mean by the
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Catholic Church over against the Novationists over against the Donatists Exactly what do you mean by that and because the the a lot of the
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Protestant churches They broke away from the Catholic Church. They kept a lot of the traditional beliefs Now obviously right there you get your answer because they broke away from the
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Catholic they broke away from the Roman Catholic Church What What's what's the what would be a safe time frame for the
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Apostles Creed Let's just say 250 for the fun of it. All right. I mean you could argue earlier and later.
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There's elements of it obviously vast majority of it is just simply biblical at that point, but let's just say 250 is a
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Widely accepted Date range The Church of 250 in the
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Church of 1517 vastly different vastly different focus
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Perspective organization 250 you're you're you're just starting to get the beginnings of a sacerdotal system and especially the priesthood
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I mean if you've got it gonna have a sacerdotal system you priests and and Priests are not biblical and priests were not ancient.
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It was developed over time and so How can you even
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I mean you have to do the Newman acorn tree mind game to come up with this and I don't buy that mind game
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I don't think most other people do either and those who reject the traditional beliefs are considered to be heretics and rightfully so but then you have
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Protestantism against Protestantism you have Protestant sects that broke out of the mainstream
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Protestant sects like the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Branch Davidians and the Seventh -day Adventists and I can go on and on but all these wacky cults and groups, but interesting way of viewing things when you say broke out of If you mean that the the background of a
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Joseph Smith Was in a primarily Protestant culture so that If well if you ever thought about it for those who have studied
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Mormonism, you know that in the alleged sacred grove When Joseph Smith asks which church he should join the
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Roman Church is not even mentioned Not even it's not even a within the context of of being a possibility.
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It's the Presbyterians Baptists and Methodists That get identified as as the
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Still the people that are you know, their professors are corrupt, but it was already a given that Rome was
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So if that's what you're talking about Okay, but that's saying nothing more than Certain groups arose out of Roman Catholic areas they they've always had their groups that have developed in their areas and then once you have
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Protestantism becoming large enough to become predominant within a particular area such as it was an upstate
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New York around You know 1827 or so then you have
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You know groups that can come out of out of that as well I I guess if that's the context
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Okay, but sometimes following context with Theodore's little little tricky Those are also part of Protestantism because all of those groups hate the
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Catholic Church. They believe in okay Here's where the definitions go completely wacky So Any group that rebels against Rome Would also be part of Romanism Because they came out of it.
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So if you not now you've got the because they hate the Catholic Church How is that a logical or meaningful
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Ecclesiastical dividing line of Mormonism is
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Farther away from biblical Christianity than Islam is it's most polytheistic religion in the world
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How can you say it's part of Protestantism to even make the connection is to?
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render irrelevant all Terminology about religious relationships and the relationship of beliefs in religious systems and That's one of the problems.
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I have the shoe basses. They they make connections that just don't make a lick of sense and I don't know where the connections are coming from and they're thinking
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Well, because they all they all just like Rome well the Mormons dislike
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My beliefs too, so what what was that doing anything? You let you identify their origins you identify their beliefs
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The Mormons have to go over in the polytheistic religion section. They're pretty much by themselves out there.
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There's no question about that But the idea of well, you're Protestant because you hate
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Rome Um, even the terminal terminology hate Rome is just Raises all sorts of unnecessary emotional barriers,
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I Mean do I hate every false gospel? Yes, I hate every false gospel
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Does that mean that? I hate Roman Catholics or I hate
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Rome Catholicism. Well theologically I guess I hate Roman Catholicism But let me point something out to Theodore and to everybody else
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You can absolutely detest what a religion does to people I've seen what
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Rome does to people. I Know that Rome's gospel cannot give you peace I've seen people destroyed on the the treadmill of penances and sacramentalism
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But that doesn't keep me From expending every effort
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To accurately represent what Roman Catholicism says and to not utilize the common forms of Argumentation that many people have against Roman Catholicism.
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This has been the case in every group we've dealt with Every group we've ever dealt with we read the literature that Christians have produced
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How many books on Mormonism have I had to say? Let's not go there. Not really accurate a little overboard a little imbalanced a little unfair
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How about Roman Catholicism Yeah, you know this You know, hey,
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I Had Alberto Rivera. Tell me to my face. I was going to hell so So, you know
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Jack Chick thinks I'm the Antichrist. So obviously we've done that there and there's all sorts of apologetic against Islam that is inappropriate as well if you're gonna be fair and we have to be fair and I would suggest to you that the kind of hatred that the world associates with hate that would mean we obviously don't hate these groups and these people because We remain balanced and seek for balance and seek for fairness because we want we want to be able to say hey
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You need to be fair in the arguments you're using against us. We'll be fair in the arguments.
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We're using back As well, or at least we will do our best to try to do so Not everyone's going to agree that we are obviously but we make the attempt protesting the
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Catholic Church They believe in changing doctrine of the Catholic Church. They are essentially Protesting the
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Catholic Church So that that wasn't what Protestant actually originally meant if you know the history of the actual origin term
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It had more political remember Reformation had all sorts of political aspects to it because it was going on the
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Holy Roman Empire and the rise of nationalism and all the rest that that kind of that kind of stuff, but You Make sure you recognize that When someone says well, they want to change the doctrines of the
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Catholic Church in the mind of someone like this These are doctrines that have been there from the beginning and now they want to change that.
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That's obviously not what they were saying they were saying that the the doctrines and dogmas of Rome in their day were
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Evolutions away from The evolutions away from apostolic truth and that's why there was so much argumentation
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Well, what did Augustine really say? Let's go back to their church fathers There was a tremendous amount of that that is to be found in the at the time the
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Reformation And that's why for example, I've pointed out both sides could use Augustine Because the
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Catholics could use Augustine in regards to ecclesiology and the Protestants could use Augustine regards to soteriology
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Because the great disputes in Augustine's age regarding Pelagianism Donatism Augustine was not overly consistent on that particular point and so both sides could use him
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Why would they be concerned about that? Well because the argument was not only the biblical argument
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But also the argument that well, you know, you've got this this unbroken tradition
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Not really. No, actually you don't if you go back and Go to the patristic sources themselves.
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They tell a they tell a different story What is Islam is Islam like one of these sects like Mormonism like Jehovah's Witnesses and all these other groups?
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Yes Islam really is a form of Protestantism now before you object
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I want to say I understand Muhammad did not live in the time of Martin Luther. That's a given
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I'm not saying that Muhammad was part of the Protestant Reformation but what
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I am trying to say is that Islam is a form of Protestantism why because Islam was founded as a protest against the
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Catholic Church and Obviously if the Roman Catholic Church did not exist as the
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Roman Catholic Church in 632 AD then this is going to become irrelevant and So the assumption that Theodore is making is is that well the
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Roman Catholics were the only people around back then That's not that's not the case Not only did you have divisions in regards to Nestorianism?
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everyone always raises issues regarding Nestorianism and what kind of of Christology would
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Muhammad have been Exposed to and all the rest that kind of stuff
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But the reality is once again the definitional dogmas of modern -day
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Rome especially in regards to Mariology the central aspects of Eucharistic beliefs
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Certainly the concept of the Pope as the infallible head of the church
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Though, you know the East never accepted that view of the papacy, obviously and so That split however had not even yet taken place it would in 1054 but this assumption of absolute continuity and the assumption that What was believed then that still continues to sound the same today had the same matrix and context to it
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These are all simplistic assumptions that simply Shouldn't be shouldn't be made.
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There's a lot of evidence for that. For example in the Quran Muhammad says that the Catholics worship their monks he talks about how the
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Christians or in his day, they would be Catholics because In the time of Muhammad that's all there was he were
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Catholic there was no Protestants there was no Again do
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I have to point out The Donatist schism in North Africa the fact that in the days of Augustine there were as many as 700
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Donatist bishops in in North Africa Do I have to point out that?
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Obviously a careful reading of the sources from this time period Would force you to recognize that the later divisions between East and West the latent
40:02
Underlying issues were already present at this time that we don't have nearly as much information as we would like to have
40:12
Concerning the nature of The Christian sources that Muhammad would have reference to it and of course part of this is due to the fact that there's tremendous confusion on the part of the author of the
40:28
Quran as To what Christianity is there's tremendous confusion in the language that is used and the hadith sources don't help us a whole lot
40:37
Because they actually represent an even much later formulation
40:43
Being collected, you know centuries later And and so there's there's just a lot of scholarly
40:52
Disagreement on these issues, but the idea that That That this prophet who not only you know to define the
41:05
Quran as primarily a rejection of Christian beliefs and Not include the
41:13
Jews in that and not see the development even in the canon of the
41:19
Quran where at first in the
41:24
Meccan surahs there is an emphasis upon the commonality of The prophethood the message of prophethood
41:36
The fact that every prophet is sent with one core message la ilaha illa ha you've got to have that monotheism it's right there and that's what the
41:46
Jews had that's what the Christians have and so we're we're going the same way and then
41:53
After the hijra and after some other issues You start having the stronger language condemning
42:04
The al -kitab, the people, the book, the al -kitab Clearly even within the canon there is a progression of perspective but to make the primary focus of Of Muhammad's entire religion a reaction against Catholicism when he is obviously the most ignorant of Christianity in comparison to Judaism he knows much more about the
42:39
Old Testament knows much more about the Jewish stories and has much more interaction with Jews Than he has with Christians Just makes this whole theory
42:49
Really really suspect. Well, not only suspect not to be except Evangelicals, there was no
42:55
Baptist. It was Catholic. So Anytime you read the Quran and it's it's condemning
43:01
Christians. You're talking about members of the Catholic Church That's the bottom line. So anything anti -christian in the
43:08
Quran is an attack on the Catholic Church Again, this is this is
43:14
Anachronistic at best Anything anti -christian in the
43:20
Quran is at best the understanding of the author of the Quran at that particular point of time and He does not understand and gives no evidence of understanding
43:31
Any of the issues that would eventually divide East from West. He doesn't seem to have any understanding of the
43:37
Christological issues Nestorianism or Utiquianism or Council of Chalcedon anything doesn't know this stuff.
43:47
He has no knowledge of this material at all and So it becomes extremely anachronistic to say well anything anti -christian the
43:55
Quran is against the Catholic Church Knowing that you know, I haven't heard him make a clear distinction this video saying now
44:04
I'm not talking about the modern Roman Catholic Church Instead the whole argument is it's one the same
44:12
That's the problem Historically, this can be proven without a doubt Because there were no other
44:18
Christians in in that time period in the you know 6th century 7th century and beyond there was no other
44:25
Christians until 16th century or so Therefore the
44:30
Quran is an attack on Catholic doctrine the Catholic doctrine of the
44:36
Trinity the Catholic doctrine of the incarnation The Catholic doctrine that states that God became flesh the word the eternal word the
44:46
Son became flesh Became a man that is rejected in the
44:51
Quran and therefore that rejects that rejection is essentially an attack Against the
44:57
Catholic Church. So Islam was not founded as a separate religion altogether It was founded as an attempt or as a movement that desired to strip away
45:07
Many of the Orthodox beliefs that were established by the Catholic Church Now again,
45:14
I just find this this whole theory Really stretching it's really got
45:23
Be really hard to defend this I think in debate against a sound
45:28
Islamic apologist There there's no evidence that the author of the
45:36
Quran has knowledge these things even The denial of the incarnation shows no understanding of what?
45:44
Even the most basic statement of the incarnation is it seems rather obvious in light of surah 5 1 16
45:52
That the idea of incarnation has to do with pagan deities taking wives and having children
45:57
So the idea that this is a rejection a knowing rejection even an intelligent rejection of the
46:09
Christian faith First of all, it makes that the entirety of the motivation of Islam, which it clearly is not
46:18
But it it really grants way too much understanding the way beyond The level that the evidence itself would substantiate in regards to the knowledge of the author of the
46:30
Quran so when Islam rejects the incarnation that God became flesh it is it
46:37
By implication it essentially began to deny the doctrine of the Eucharist. And this is something that Really all
46:45
Protestants reject they reject the Catholic doctrine of the Eucharist Now there is no question at this point that Remember the term transubstantiation will not be used for another
47:00
Minimally 450 470 years almost half a millennium after the days of Muhammad and To read back into this time period the post
47:17
Aristotelian Categories of accidents and substance concept of Transplantation, where do you get that from the
47:31
Quran? Where do you get that from the Hadith? You've really got to start stretching at that particular point in time and So it's it's not again a knowledgeable Reaction or response
47:51
So to to make what what about the rejection of Judaism on the part of the
47:59
Quran Does what what is what does that mean that that Islam is or is that irrelevant?
48:06
Is it only its rejection of Catholic theology that makes it
48:11
Protestant? I Think we can see where there's some just so many category errors here that this kind of argumentation just isn't isn't worthwhile
48:21
It's not going to accomplish anything in actually forwarding the dialogue between Christians and Muslims and certainly between Roman Catholics and Protestants That the real presence of Christ is in the consecrated host
48:37
What appears to be bread is actually the body and blood of Christ And so Islam utterly projects that belief and so that's why
48:47
I say Islam is a form of prop Where does Islam give any evidence of even understanding? That later belief let alone.
48:55
Can you document from any sources? contemporaneous With the time period and location of this you have to you just have to assume and I know this is the assumption you know if This is the assumption that Roman Catholics make but that's when you challenge it
49:16
They end up having to fall back on the development hypothesis Once you develop you fall back upon Newman, then you're in essence abandoning the historical field of battle but how can you have the full -blown modern
49:30
Roman doctrine at This time period without the categories present within the culture to be able to express it.
49:40
Why did the early church? Why did the early church not have a monstrance or a pyxus or a ciborium?
49:49
Why when they brought the consecrated host to the to the sick? Did they then dispose of those that weren't used and did not give
49:59
Latruo to those? because they may have understood real presence in a way you don't and They didn't have the categories of transubstantiation that you do maybe possibly thought about it, maybe
50:16
That's why we did those debates so long ago back when I had big glasses and hair Protestantism became to protest many of the doctrines one of which being
50:24
The doctrine of the Eucharist and there is a very well -known very reputable
50:31
Theologian and the historian by the name of Hilaire Belloc and he wrote an excellent book called the great heresies
50:36
And if you haven't read that book Read it. It's an amazing book because it explains to you a number of the great heresies that have attacked
50:46
Christianity starting with Arianism Islam albigenzianism or Catharism and then in the end of the book it goes on and talks and Conveys a history of Protestantism.
50:59
But anyway, there's a quote from the book in the chapter on Islam and It explains how
51:07
Islam was founded as a Sect or as a movement that wanted to strip away really the core doctrines of the
51:16
Catholic Church such as the Trinity the incarnation The virgin birth or the immaculate conception and of course the doctrine of the
51:25
Eucharist so I'll read to you the Statement here Hilaire Belloc says quote but the central point where this new heresy struck home with a mortal blow against Catholic tradition
51:36
Was a full denial of the incarnation Islam rejects the idea that God became man
51:41
That's why in the Quran it says God is not begotten nor does he beget
51:46
He is not born and nor is he one with God nor is he God mr
51:51
Belloc continues on to say Muhammad did not merely take the first steps toward that denial as the
51:57
Aryans and their followers had done He advanced a clear affirmation Full and complete against the whole doctrine of an incarnate
52:05
God He taught that our Lord was the greatest of all the prophets but still only a prophet a man like other men
52:11
He eliminated the Trinity all together with that denial of the I just paused because I see the time and stuff
52:19
But I just paused long enough to point out. He did not understand the Trinity. He could not eliminate something.
52:26
He did not understand That there where is the evidence from the Quran? I keep asking my Muslim friends this
52:31
I'll ask you Where is the answer on he even understood it? Sir 5116 says he didn't the understanding of sonship
52:39
What it means to have a lot to have a son in the Quran shows he did not understand it so What what's your evidence that?
52:48
Again, this is all meaning to put Islam and Protestantism in the same Category by defining them in light of Rome which
52:57
I don't think is Helpful from any perspective our nation went the whole sacramental structure
53:03
He refused to know anything of the Eucharist with its real presence He stopped the sacrifice of the mass and therefore the institution of a special priesthood in other words
53:14
He like so many other heresy arcs founded his heresy on simplification
53:20
So then this is very fascinating. He noticed the term he uses simplification anytime you have a simplification of a religion it always leads to fanaticism and high numbers of subscribers when you have really
53:34
Islam is a Simplification of Christianity Okay, he goes on for quite some time here and there was a couple things toward then
53:41
I was gonna respond to but I want To get to the other one and we're sort of run out of time We may have to go a little bit long. Anyways, by the way while that was running
53:46
I did Bring up some of those quotes on on Facebook and in fact while I switch over to This this other one here
53:59
This is the one that So, okay. Okay. Stop that. I don't know why that auto starts.
54:06
But anyway When Theodore posted this next debate, well this debate the links to I think nine or ten videos on His YouTube channel when he posted on his
54:24
Facebook page this search for Theodore Shoebat. This is yesterday Here's here's the description everyone here is a debate
54:33
I did with a wicked heretic named Keith Thompson on Christian militancy and Catholicism I Got it all in recording and for you to enjoy it is in seven parts and then the first part and then after some people
54:48
Gave him some a guy named Seth LG Adams gives him some rah -rah's Theodore comments,
54:55
I am forever appreciative of your guys encouragement the reign of the heretics is amongst us and we need to work together fighting him and Then right below that on August 5th.
55:08
He made the comment The Holocaust was done by a schismatic heretic who broke away from the
55:16
Catholic Church so There you go blame
55:22
Hitler on not remaining faithful to Rome It's that kind of Really your mind makes those connections that makes it a little bit scary.
55:35
Do you very eyes with you? To try to respond to some of this stuff and it's and it's it's interesting.
55:43
So I I Forgot to look up and didn't think it was relevant because it might be actually be distracted
55:51
But if someone in channel or someone in Twitter would like to know let me know who Keith Thompson is I probably the name rings a faint bell, but not in this context because there's no video.
56:02
It's just a difficult to hear voice so Maybe someone could let me know
56:10
Why this even happened I don't even know why this but this is actually just the second portion of the seven is what was tweeted to me, but that's because it contains a reference to yours truly and so here is
56:27
On Christian militancy and the Catholic Church from Theodore Schubert.
56:35
Oh my but you determine when God does things when God doesn't do things I think if you examine the evidence and you deny
56:41
God's sovereignty over the Reformation Then you'd have to be a fool. I asked you for that How do you know when by the way when
56:49
Keith starts is actually given enough time to talk a little bit later on I If if if Keith is listening or tweeting or something his statements on the origination of The Reformation Sounded hauntingly familiar
57:13
And I'd be interested if there's a connection here somewhere
57:19
Maybe we had the same church history professor or something. I don't know because If you've listened to my discussion of the background of the
57:27
Reformation In regards to the Renaissance printing Erasmus his Greek New Testament All that it all comes out it was it was like I was listening to myself at that point and it was very very interesting, so That would be interesting to see odds hand is in something
57:46
So what about Egypt? I mean, what about all these Coptic Christians? What about all the Coptic Christians?
57:51
Let's say in the year 6 11 who were invaded by the Arabs when they were under the
57:58
Byzantine Empire They believed in all the things that you don't that you despise Okay, were they all heretics the
58:03
Muslim okay, they they believed in all the things that you despise
58:11
Do you mean by that that they believed in doctrines that a modern Protestant wouldn't yes
58:19
Did they believe everything the modern Roman Catholic does of course not again naive view of church history to not recognize
58:29
Even what modern Rome recognizes in the development of Doctrine over time some of which
58:40
Some dog dog doctrines You know right around this time you have some of the first references in Well before this you had some references to for example the concept that would eventually become bodily assumption and they're they're condemned
58:58
So you could even say That positively at this point in time, they would have held to beliefs
59:05
Opposite of what has been dogmatically defined since then you could say that but again, it's this it's this how do you?
59:13
How do you get to this connection? And what did that have to do with what was being said? Maybe I missed something before this because this is part number two.
59:20
I don't know but it seems like There's a little scattergun Throw a bunch of stuff out there going on here right now
59:28
Invaded them and and they're still there today being suppressed by the Muslims under Sharia The the
59:33
Christians in Turkey are also being suppressed under Sharia the Christians in Iraq the Christians in Syria I mean
59:39
I can go on and on what they all agree in transubstantiation. They all agree in priests
59:44
They all agree in confessions. What happened? I mean did they all agree in transubstantiation really?
59:52
You're sure about that you're sure they all all of those groups that you just mentioned and I think he was including
01:00:01
The the cops at the time of Muhammad unless he stopped thinking about them you can demonstrate they believe in transubstantiation
01:00:09
Almost five centuries for the term is actually used anywhere really Hmm, that would be interesting to see you prove that God all of a sudden cut them off too
01:00:19
And and just had to allow the Reformation to be the light to the world Are you gonna let me answer or are you gonna
01:00:26
I mean, you don't ask you keep bringing up the Reformation I'm asking you what happened to these Christians in Egypt. I know your question
01:00:31
I'm gonna answer it, but I'm asking if you'll let me actually answer this time if you can go ahead answer it
01:00:37
Okay, you asserted that those people all you haven't demonstrated that anyone can assert things
01:00:46
Okay. Now the issue with the Reformation is this how do I know God's sovereign hand was in it?
01:00:52
Well, you can see For example, Johan Gutenberg. He built his printing press in the 1400s if that didn't happen
01:01:01
Then the Reformation literature would not be able to spread and he was Catholic, right?
01:01:07
Reformation would not have been able right? Okay. I stopped. Okay Keith Thompson we're talking about here.
01:01:14
I'm assuming is The same Keith Thompson with Reformed Apologetics Ministries and that has contributed to answering
01:01:21
Islam, I'm assuming that again Just went with the video here. What did
01:01:27
Gutenberg's religious affiliation have to do with anything? See this is the thing it bothers me about the
01:01:35
Shoebats is they'll throw stuff out there That's not relevant Who cares?
01:01:43
We're talking about We're talking about the religion of The nation at this point.
01:01:49
We're talking about sacralism this point We can have a good biblical discussion about what the sacralism is a
01:01:54
Valid concept and I would certainly argue that it is not you don't become a Christian by being born in some place
01:02:01
In fact, it's one of the things that separates Christianity from Islam. You're not born into Christianity. You are born into Islam That's one of the big differences
01:02:10
Maybe not for theater. I don't know but what did that have to do with anything? How why interrupt someone who's making a point about God's sovereign hand and bringing about the
01:02:20
Reformation Historically, why throw something in like that? I don't
01:02:26
I don't understand that. It's irrelevant So there was no universities with Catholics Irrelevant This is what concerns me
01:02:43
He's not listening He's not listening to it because see I would be saying the same thing that Keith is saying here
01:02:49
If you've listened to my church history series this the when we talk about what led up to the
01:02:54
Reformation. I List the exact same categories That Keith is bringing up here the rise of universities
01:03:03
When you say well weren't they Catholic what does it matter that's not his point The point was from what
01:03:10
I heard that God's was that God was involved Sovereignly in history, for example, he's could bring up Erasmus Erasmus died as a
01:03:18
Roman Catholic priest He wrote in defense of transubstantiation So that doesn't change the fact that the work that he produced was vitally important for Luther in his studies of Romans and of Soteriology to recognize that Punatensium agate is not the same thing as metanoia day all right, so The the the the the throwing of stuff out here is demonstrating theater is not listening to what's being said to him.
01:03:54
That's That's a common problem in Internet Arguments rather than debates
01:04:04
Oh God, can you anything right? So let me ask you this So during the Crusades when the Crusades were fighting the
01:04:10
Muslims, who were the true Christians? Oh, so you're gonna interrupt me and go back on your word. No, I'm not going back my word
01:04:18
I would simply say that the definition of true Christian is the same at any time period in any point in history and Anybody who thinks you have the ability to look into people's hearts from 800 years in the future
01:04:36
You're deceiving yourself and others possibly in the process I'm just saying people invent things all the time doesn't mean that all the hand of God is in the
01:04:46
Reformation Mormons can argue that Mormons can argue that but Obviously Keith is here's the problem trying to do a debate with someone who just wants to Have a barroom fight
01:05:04
Isn't going to work real well Because what Keith is trying to do is reason with people who?
01:05:10
Want to hear facts and truth and so on and so forth. They want to hear Well, why do you believe that there was a sovereign work of God?
01:05:21
But it takes time to develop that kind of thing You know, I think one of the greatest evidences of this aside from the things that Keith's bringing up is
01:05:29
From my perspective Wycliffe would have been a much better choice to lead the Reformation than Luther was but it wasn't time the necessary elements that led the
01:05:42
Reformation were not yet in place at the time of Wycliffe and So there's just another indication of this now
01:05:50
You cannot make someone who doesn't want to hear and doesn't want to reason to hear what you're saying or accept what you're saying so That's I think what we're watching here
01:06:01
God's sovereignty over this. Okay, so you have the rise of universities and Renaissance humanism, which was necessary because In the medieval period as you may or may not know there was a degradation of learning but with the
01:06:15
Renaissance and Humanism that is the idea that God created man So we could you know learn and had a capacity to learn
01:06:23
God's revelation that sprung up That's what the Reformers adopted then in the 14th and 15th centuries
01:06:30
There was a stress by theologians and academics on going back to the original source That's what the
01:06:37
Latin slogan ad fontis meant to the sources It signified that attitude Luther picked up on that Calvin picked up on that if this didn't happen
01:06:45
Then the Reformation as we know it would not have spread then you had at the Rasmus printing the first ever
01:06:51
Greek New Testament Which Luther studied got his hands on and then found out such as?
01:07:27
What's wrong with the Inquisition What's wrong with the Inquisition? What's wrong with the
01:07:33
Inquisition? Okay, what's all the Inquisition? What's wrong the Inquisition? well
01:07:39
I You got to give him credit, you know, it's it's better than a lot of Rome's apologists who you know
01:07:49
Look, the Inquisition was the official perspective of the leadership in Rome you better own it and He owns it.
01:07:58
I mean we look back at it and we see the the reign of terror and the
01:08:04
Unfairness and the injustice and the the the gross results of sacralism and We we recognize it for what it is.
01:08:13
But hey, you know what if you're really gonna be a good Roman Catholic You should be sitting on the Inquisition That's okay.
01:08:20
It's okay. If a if a state uses the sword to force people to to bow to Unbiblical doctrines, that's okay
01:08:31
Okay there there you go that's Sort of necessary if you're gonna create a militaristic
01:08:40
Christianity to Hold on what's wrong with the Inquisition? What is wrong with the
01:08:46
Inquisition? Yes, I have I've read
01:08:53
Henry Cayman. I've read Edward Peters and I've read several primary sources on the Inquisition. What's wrong with the
01:08:58
Inquisition? Which civilizations which civilizations
01:09:09
What's hold on hold on you tell me the Cathars were Christians stop stop stop stop stop
01:09:15
Theodore wake up young man What does that have to do with anything? I don't care if the
01:09:21
Cathars are space aliens his point is that a allegedly
01:09:29
Christian group Used military force to wipe out entire populations of people which they did the
01:09:38
Pope called crusades against heretics in the mountains of France and Italy they did that and They killed people
01:09:49
Who cares if they were Christians or not? He's gonna make his entire defense Well, I I could give you sources that these people were heretics
01:09:58
So Are you gonna start rounding up the forces to go take on the
01:10:04
Mormon missionaries and blow them off their bikes? I mean seriously This is what just blew me away is like I Are you not listening or what's worse is the thought process that just goes way over here
01:10:22
Yeah, oh, yeah All over the place like what? Um, oh wow, we're the
01:10:30
Cathars Christians, sir, we're the Cathars Christians Well, the
01:10:37
Elbe Genesee's had decent theology, but there's debate on a couple things like Dualism Gnosticism, but there's a debate on that.
01:10:47
But either way you shouldn't go into a civilization People kill all their priests
01:10:54
And just massacre the women and children you do realize that that you do realize that the
01:11:00
Cathars were not Christians, right? You're not listening Theodore his point is
01:11:07
Christians don't engage in mass murder Hello Well, I just explained there's a debate on if they were truly heretical
01:11:18
But you know, there is evidence that they did hold Some important Orthodox, so those were the true
01:11:25
Christians that came from the Apostles Irrelevancy again, we should start we should start a goal, you know
01:11:33
Totem, how many irrelevancies? What does that have to do with anything? So as long as they come from the
01:11:41
Apostles, we shouldn't kill them Yeah, I think you were all seeing what's going on here
01:11:48
Did hold on were those the true Christians who came from the Apostles he's already said not okay.
01:11:55
So where do they come from? You so you don't know even so hold on so you don't even know where they come from yet You're you're you're sympathizing with them.
01:12:05
You don't even know what they believed in so you're Sympathizing with them. Yes, most human beings sympathize with populations that are wiped out by Religious groups for the fun of it
01:12:21
Yeah, that mmm, and The scary thing is I look at this video
01:12:27
And I don't see that Theodore is even hearing what he's saying doesn't even seem to realize
01:12:35
He's spouting the very same stuff The Muslims are spouting in the
01:12:42
Middle East about coffers. Oh I wish
01:12:47
I had this queued up. I wish I had this queued up. There was a video and I tried to save it, but it was it wasn't on YouTube is one of the one of those other sites.
01:12:58
You can't save it There was a video in Arabic of A teacher in a
01:13:06
Middle Eastern country and a Muslim country and he was talking about the definition of coffer it was clearly
01:13:13
I thought to go back it was in Syria because he was talking about Assad and He was talking about why we don't
01:13:20
You know, you know what? You know, what's a coffer even talked about believing
01:13:26
Jesus God son of God I mean specific theology quoting directly from surah 4 surah 5 the the key text that we have debated so many times with with Muslims and At one point the teacher
01:13:44
These young as young students are listening to this guy you never see his face because it's shot from behind him and he says
01:13:51
He says to them So, what do we do with coffers now that they've defined them as those who have a differing religious belief.
01:13:59
What do we do with coffers? We slaughter them We slaughter them and that's what the
01:14:08
Inquisition did with the Waldensians It's the same mindset.
01:14:16
It's the same mindset. That's frightening It should be frightening to you Frightening to me as I'm concerning the beginning of this debate you cared about what
01:14:26
I believed in But you don't care what they believed in. I thought you were arguing I thought you were asking is there claims to a line going back to early times true and I'm not persuaded of that I don't know exactly how far
01:14:39
You can trace them home on don't change the subject on you believe that the Cathars were true Christians. I do know
01:14:46
That the Cathars helped you orthodox teachings and they should such as what let me That's what
01:14:54
I know such as what so what do they believe in that was orthodox By the way, this is completely derailed the conversation which was supposed to be about the sovereign hand of God and establishing
01:15:15
Reformation Someone in channel has provided me with the URL to the video
01:15:21
I was talking about. I'm while we're listening to this I'm gonna get it queued up. We can switch over to it so you can see you can compare
01:15:29
It's it's scary Do you know they had a
01:15:42
Pope Pardon me, do you know that they had a Pope? Have you ever heard of the
01:15:50
Cathar Council at st. Felix de Caramon 11 in 1167 They actually appointed
01:15:56
Pope me Quinta to be there to be there there to hold the seat of their the little papacy that they invented
01:16:07
Do you hold on there, you know about the Catholic war do you know who started okay? There was the point he ignores it ignores it.
01:16:14
Oh, that's not a part of where I want to go So I'm just going there is no meaningful interaction
01:16:21
Going on here in the mind of theater. He's theater trip. He's not listening He's not listening.
01:16:27
This is this is what's I've seen this mindset before unfortunately as a debater
01:16:36
Keep that available. We're gonna go back to it But I'm switching over to That it that it that it that it's
01:16:48
Safari. Here we go You ready I Catch that Catherine the infidels
01:18:00
And notice it said humiliates. That's the term that is used of Satan being humiliated.
01:18:07
Off the top of my head I think it was surah 7 but it may have been one later on. It's just off the top of my head. I didn't look it up. But the humiliation of the
01:18:14
Kafir is the elevation of the Muslimin. That's what he's talking about here. Catch that?
01:18:34
They who say that God is the third of three have disbelieved? Straight out of surah 5.
01:18:39
These are the very texts that we have debated with Bassam Zawadi and so many others in regards to what the
01:18:48
Quran says about Christianity. Here is their understanding. Do you hear that?
01:19:02
Thalatha. He used the term three. Not the trinity. But three. Three what?
01:19:08
Three gods. That's clearly what the Quran is talking about. Misrepresentation. Misunderstanding. Whoever says that God is two and that Jesus' son is a
01:19:17
Kafir. There's what's on the screen right now. Whoever says that Jesus' son is a Kafir. Whoever says that Jesus is
01:19:23
God is a Kafir. Bashar al -Assad. Is he a
01:19:28
Muslim or a Kafir? Kafir. Kafir. Right? Who loves Bashar? Who loves Bashar al -Assad? Who hates him?
01:19:38
Kafir. Kafir. Why? Kafir. Kafir. Kafir. Kafir. Kafir. Kafir. Kafir.
01:19:50
What would we do to him? What do they respond? Slaughter him.
01:19:59
And we look at that and we go, Oh, it's terrible. Terrible. If you're going to say that's terrible, then
01:20:08
Rome's crusades against the Abogensians was just as terrible.
01:20:15
In fact, it was worse. You know why? Because the
01:20:20
Romanist had much more light than this man has. He's been deceived by a false prophet from the 6th century.
01:20:28
He has never read the Christian scriptures. He simply believes what the Quran tells him.
01:20:34
Therefore, he's deceived and he's deceiving others. The crusader didn't have that excuse, did he?
01:20:41
No. Didn't have that excuse. Yeah. Okay. We go back.
01:20:49
You should have the feed you had before. It shouldn't have changed at all, I hope. The Kafir War? Hold on.
01:20:56
So just because they killed people, so because the Catholics killed people, that means that they're an abomination?
01:21:02
No, there's many things that prove they're an abomination, such as selling of indulgences, like I said, such as popes selling their papal office for 1 ,000 pounds of silver, for example, popes mutilating past popes, putting them on mock trial and having their body thrown into the river, popes having orgies in the
01:21:23
Vatican. Referring to the pornography there and things like that. But we're about to come up on, let's throw out another complete canard.
01:21:35
Here it comes. No. So Protestants never have orgies? What about your friend James Wyatt? I remember
01:21:40
I heard him say that God destined women to be raped and the evil proceeded from God.
01:21:47
And although it was purposeless, God created something that was purposeless. Okay, how many errors in 10 seconds?
01:21:56
I mean, Theodore? Wow, not even close. Not even close.
01:22:03
Where did I say the evil proceeded from God? Did you not hear the entire discussion that I've offered many times on primary and secondary causes?
01:22:13
Do you understand primary and secondary causes? You just said that I said it was meaningless.
01:22:20
Don't you realize my entire argument is 180 degrees opposite of that?
01:22:28
That everything that happens in time has a meaning, that I don't believe in a
01:22:33
God who creates meaningless evil? How about you, Theodore?
01:22:38
Do you believe in a God that creates meaningless evil? Do you believe in a God that created this entire universe knowing what was going to happen and yet had no purpose or meaning in any of it?
01:22:51
I mean, that isn't even close and it is so utterly irrelevant to what
01:23:00
Keith was saying that it completely destroys any semblance of credibility that you might be trying to create for yourself by throwing out utterly irrelevant facts.
01:23:15
Who are you trying to impress, Theodore? That's amazing.
01:23:21
Anybody watching this that actually knows what Reformed theology says on this subject and knows
01:23:27
I'm simply reflecting that just went, Wow, what are your motivations and what's your level of understanding?
01:23:38
I mean, Theodore, your understanding of what I believe at this time is the same level of understanding of what the author of the
01:23:47
Quran had of the Trinity. It's that bad. It's that bad. Wow.
01:23:56
So, Keith is pointing out that there was a period called the Pornocracy during which time the papacy reached its absolute lowest point that there were well -known orgies in the papal precincts that the papacy was sold to young men for portions of money that every pope for years had all sorts of illegitimate sexual encounters and some were engaged in rape and murder.
01:24:27
There was a reason why it's called the Pornocracy. And yet we're supposed to trace the very mechanism for keeping the church pure through that morass and mess?
01:24:43
These are relevant questions and you respond with a complete not only grossly dishonest and completely backwards false accusation but it has nothing to do with anything.
01:25:02
You consider this argumentation? It's not argumentation. I'm afraid this is what sometimes the internet has bred for us.
01:25:10
This will happen to be rape. That's not an abomination? Okay, so now you want to get into a debate on if the
01:25:18
Bible teaches God's sovereignty? No, I'm saying if you want to say that that is an abomination I can point out things that Protestants do that are abomination.
01:25:26
Everyone is only accountable if they are free in the matter. Is that your position? I'm not going to argue predestination with you.
01:25:33
I'm saying that it's a disgusting thing to believe that God destined rape. Would you agree that it's a disgusting thing to believe that God destined rape?
01:25:42
So God destined rape. What do you think that means, Theodore?
01:25:52
There were a number of sinful acts that were involved in the lives of the people who were a part of the genealogy of Jesus Christ.
01:26:01
Do you think that caught God by surprise? Do you think he was just doing his best to sort of put things back together again after those interruptions?
01:26:13
Did God destine the pain that Joseph experienced when he was in the pit?
01:26:24
How about the pain of his father thinking he was dead? The evil of his brothers?
01:26:31
The lust of Potiphar's wife? Did he destine any of those things?
01:26:37
Theodore? Seems like the Bible says he did. And he did it with holy, just, and pure motives while the people who were judged rightly for those things did so out of an evil heart.
01:26:51
That's what the Bible says, Theodore. I simply recognize that as evil and to be resisted as all the evil acts of men are, that they do not overthrow the purpose of God and that they do not constrain
01:27:12
God because they don't come from something outside of himself so that he becomes the heavenly butler running around trying to respond to everything.
01:27:21
That men make their plans and men do their things but God accomplishes his purposes.
01:27:27
That's what Psalm 33 says. But that aside, your complete misunderstanding of that issue aside, what does that have to do with the pornography?
01:27:41
What does that have to do with the alleged infallible Pope of Rome? Nothing. Nothing.
01:27:51
Amazing. Amazing. No, that's, White's position is actually that although God decrees whatsoever comes to pass, he leaves the sinful person in their depravity who willingly...
01:28:02
That's not what he said. He said the evil proceeded from God. Really? Where did
01:28:08
I say that? Document it. I challenge you. Document it. Because I know that I have always discussed primary and secondary causation.
01:28:21
You may not understand it, Theodore, but if you're going to criticize me, then at least know something about the background from where I'm deriving my statements.
01:28:31
And let me read it to you again, just in case you're not familiar with it. From all eternity
01:28:38
God decreed all that should happen in time and this he did freely and unalterably, consulting only his own wise and holy will, yet in so doing he does not become in any sense the author of sin, nor does he share responsibility for sin with sinners, neither by reason of his decree is the will of any creature whom he has made violated, nor is the free working of second causes put aside, rather it is established in all these matters that divine wisdom appears, as also does
01:29:06
God's power and faithfulness in effecting that which he has purposed. That is the statement of the official position of Reformed Baptists.
01:29:15
And if you're going to represent a Reformed Baptist, Theodore, then do a little homework.
01:29:21
Do a little homework. Check your sources so that you don't end up doing stuff like this.
01:29:28
Because this is really embarrassing. You are affirming the exact opposite of what
01:29:35
I am saying. Because you don't understand the position. It's a shame. You're going to tell me that's not an abomination.
01:29:42
When did he say that? He said that on the Bible Answer Man show a number of years ago. Yeah, the evil proceeded from God.
01:29:50
And you're going to tell me that all of a sudden that's a great thing to say? Okay, again, aside from the utter irrelevancy of this in regards to the pornography and the complete destruction of the papal office during that period of time, we're back to the
01:30:11
Bible Answer Man citation. It's amazing! I wonder, has he actually listened to that entire conversation?
01:30:18
I bet he didn't. I'll bet he's pulling from the same a -contextual, anonymously produced audio that only gives you a little section.
01:30:26
Maybe he just read George Bryson and his stuff where you ended up with the paraphrase that had nothing to do with what
01:30:36
I actually said. I don't know where he's getting it. But anybody, anybody with knowledge of the reality knows that here's a man who is engaging in the worst forms of false argumentation and simple dishonesty at the same time.
01:30:54
You say that? You're a liar. I'm not a liar. And also, I would like to read to you something. Have you ever read the book on The Principle of Evil?
01:31:03
The Principle of Evil. Okay. Well, we're right at the jumbo size here.
01:31:11
I mean, what else? I mean, there's just... I would imagine if I went through this whole thing that I could fill a number of programs with this kind of completely bogus forms of argumentation.
01:31:25
It's a shame. It's a shame. But that's what's out there. Well, anyway, this evening, interestingly enough,
01:31:34
I'm going to be speaking on Islam at Apologia Church, and I will not present this kind of argumentation.
01:31:43
It'll actually be fair. I've had many Muslims attend the presentation and go...
01:31:50
I actually had one group show up. They were looking forward to crossing swords, and they left early because it was boring.
01:31:57
Because it was, well, yeah, that's what we believe. Okay. So, I'll be doing that this evening.
01:32:04
Trying to provide a real contrast to what Theodore Shabbat just provided to us.
01:32:12
That's a shame. Anyway, maybe Keith could send me a link to the audio of the whole thing.
01:32:20
I've got about an 85 -mile ride to do on Saturday. Maybe I could force myself to...
01:32:26
I don't know. That would be so painful. Oh, I know, I know. Where's a cactus to run into? Make it go away!
01:32:35
thanks for listening to Vinyl Line today. Lord willing, we'll be back on Tuesday. See you then. God bless. Bye.