Q&A with an Atheist

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00:05

This you said statements either true or false. I gave you a statement and you said it doesn't apply Not do that.

00:11

It's not only to that statements would be either true or false So is it true that I'm talking to you?

00:17

Is it true? That is true statement. I'm talking to you. Is that true? Yes. Okay. Is it true that babies exist?

00:26

Well, I mean Babies exist babies exist. Is that true or is it not the case that it's true?

00:32

I would be very strict about it. I would be skeptical about okay, we're done talking

00:54

We are live apologetics live here to answer your most Challenging questions about God in the

01:00

Bible we can answer any question that you have about God and the Bible if you doubt that Just go to apologetics live .com

01:09

any Thursday night that we're doing a show. That's not a formal debate. That is and You could join ask us your most difficult questions.

01:17

I Have an answer for you Just remember I don't know is a perfectly good answer

01:26

Let me bring my co -host here drew in How you doing

01:31

I'm doing well. How are you? Good good, you know, I noticed something by the way, you know about a year ago

01:38

You were you know talking to Anthony and I about what we're doing for for the hair growth

01:44

And it looks like something's going there. Did you just stop shaving or is it? It looks like it's growing in the wrong way, right the wrong direction

01:52

It's not so much growing up as much as it is growing down Okay Well Yeah, you know babies do exist.

02:02

That was hard for that that atheist, but I will not be hard I think for our atheists tonight to admit that babies exist.

02:10

I Think that will be fine. Let me bring Bill in and for folks who don't know We have we last week we did a debate

02:19

Where we aired the debate that Bill and I had at the legacy classical Christian Academy Bill I I'll say and and drew you could you could verify this with what your thoughts were, but a lot of people really enjoyed your

02:36

Your the debate we had the way you conducted yourself. And so there were a lot of kudos given to you

02:45

So just wanted to let you know that so bill one you can you hear us?

02:51

Okay. Oh, yeah. Okay So so why don't you introduce yourself let folks know? You know a little bit about yourself if they don't remember from last week if they or if they didn't watch it

03:02

Yeah, I've became an atheist about 20 years ago. I like to play pickleball.

03:09

I like to do art And I started six years ago with James Walker the atheist

03:15

Christian book club And we just came up with one with Tim McGrew out of Western, Michigan University where it's on now talking about his wife

03:26

Lydia wrote a book about his Christianity The truth of Christianity something to that effect. So yeah,

03:32

I really enjoyed the debate with you Andrew and You know had a fantastic time

03:39

Yeah, and so for folks know you you you Have a book club where you review an atheist book as a group and have discussion you review a

03:48

Christian book have discussion You've been doing this for how long have you been doing that? Oh gosh about six years now, okay

03:54

I thought it was longer. Okay good So six years and you guys you guys choose another different book from each side have the discussion others can join

04:02

So it was kind of neat. I got to see some of those good discussions good, you know,

04:07

I think the people that that watched our debate appreciated the way that we would that we treated each other the way that we kind of There wasn't the name -calling and beating each other up type of thing well

04:20

James emphasizes that Respectful. I'm more, you know, I like more of a you know tension and back and forth

04:28

So from what I noticed just watching is it seemed like the discussion was a lot of fun when you were there it seemed and that's you know, because because we've seen debates that get really heated and You never know what's gonna happen next you're waiting for someone to storm off the stage

04:47

And we want discussions to be fun. We want them to be engaging Because that's

04:52

I think that's the best way that the audience learns, right? Yeah So what we're gonna do tonight folks if you if you're what if you're listening on podcast

05:02

Just so you know and and Bill I'm gonna do you know how to mute yourself is a little muted

05:08

So just mute yourself when you're not speaking because we're getting an echo from you

05:13

I Don't know if that's something I could fix for guests Yeah, cuz it definitely just went away

05:20

And now it's back Okay. So yeah, it's definitely on your end

05:27

I don't know if I have controls, but I'll try so what we're gonna do. So if you're listening on the podcast Then my encouragement to you is to stop right here

05:35

If you haven't listened to last week's And go back to last week's listen to the debate because this is kind of the continuation of that and so it'll be kind of weird if you

05:46

You know are expecting to you know Have the have

05:54

You know like understand some what might be happening. So I Get the context get the conversation the foundation of the conversation and then

06:05

Then join this Q &A. Yeah, and so the Q &A and anyone can come in ask questions of either bill or myself and You know or just of anything as folks know with the show here

06:19

We will answer any questions But we usually devote to try to devote the first hour to the topic and so what the questions that we have are actually questions the students at the

06:28

Academy had asked and Drew has the list of questions and we've highlighted from the ones that were already answered in the debate

06:35

And so drew is going to ask the questions of both bill and I now I will admit because bill had mentioned this

06:43

The there are a larger number of questions For bill than me and many of the questions that were of me

06:51

You know were asked at the time because he was trying to There were their questions for both of us and so a lot there's got a lot more questions for bill

07:01

But that should be expected by the way, because it was at a Christian school. So there's

07:07

Typically if you have people who they're going to ask questions challenging the person on the opposite side.

07:12

So it is It's exactly right when I was in New Orleans seminary with James it was like 95 % to me

07:21

Yeah, I mean we had seven questions for both of us five for me and 20 for bill

07:26

So if you take the ones for both and for me, that's 12 and there's still 24 So and that's that's that's usual.

07:35

So for folks who may be new to this channel this podcast I'm good with that because it means bill gets more of the time to explain his views and For folks who don't understand why

07:47

I do that I've gotten in the habit someone asked so I've tried to start explaining this but I'm okay with having people on the show that Give them more time to explain their particular

07:59

Views or positions because I have next week right next week. I could do a whole show responding to bill

08:05

Bill could still come in and he's welcome to do that. But So if people sometimes go well, why are you letting this person speak and not challenging them because there's

08:16

I think no need to really Challenge when they come trying to give my guests more of the time

08:24

We've done There's really no time restraints because there's in terms of response, right?

08:31

We have all the time to respond to bill plus We can stretch this out into however many episodes we want in order to respond to everything

08:40

So that so we're not restricted by time as we would be say if we were on a stage somewhere

08:47

Yeah, when people are like looking at their watch going hey, it's dinner time I Want to get out of here for dinner, all right

08:55

So so drew I'm gonna hand this over to you at this point and you can ask the question So bill and I both respond, but you could pick which one of us responds first To the audience that's that's watching on YouTube and on Facebook if you have a question

09:11

Make sure you write who you want the question addressed to at the beginning and then

09:16

Your question if it's for Andrew right Andrew and then the question or if it's for both But both and then the question and then we'll we'll go with that accordingly.

09:25

So let's start I Think we need to in this Q &A. Let's lay a good foundation

09:32

So what I'll open up with is a question to Andrew to kind of lay the foundation from the

09:38

Christian perspective Who is Jesus Yeah, and that was one of the questions by the way,

09:45

I'm gonna just do this real quick I'll take the thing off people were asking Bill's last name. It's clucks.

09:50

K you I started KL you CK so Someone had asked that so, all right, so who is

10:00

Jesus Well, first off I will say he was a historical figure.

10:05

I think Bill will agree with that There are some who try who, you know argue against that but he was a historical figure

10:12

He hit Bill's holding up a book Jesus my thing in action.

10:18

So we'll have to let him explain it. So Okay so So I would say that Jesus was truly

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God and truly man. So he was God eternal God who be came into his own creation as a man

10:42

Lived a life sinlessly never breaking God's law Going to the cross as a payment of sin for his own creation

10:51

So that that would be a quick and I'm gonna try to give answers quickly I'm not you know, because Bill and I both we went to dinner before the debate we could talk all night

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I'm gonna try to be concise in my answers so we can get through all of them. Hopefully So yeah, so that I That'd be as concise of an answer.

11:09

I can give I mean, there's a lot more we could say John John the writer of the gospel

11:15

John said that you know, we can we could fill your tons of books and you know

11:20

Well, and I'm on the same page you are Andrew. I do believe Jesus existed for several reasons the criteria of embarrassment

11:30

Multiple attestation to say, you know, there's good reasons to believe Jesus existed Okay, so that was gonna be my next question was to turn it over to you

11:38

Bill and to say as an atheist Do you believe Jesus was an actual person? But since you've already affirmed that let me kind of change the direction of the question

11:49

What is it about Jesus that you may believe or disagree with the

11:55

Christian perspective about who Jesus was? Wow, where do you begin? First of all, like in Mark 6, you know, they're saying they're trying to get

12:05

Jesus out You know because he couldn't do any miracles and his family is trying to you know, shoot you away so that has a you know ring of veriless similitude and There's several things in the gospel, which you know seem to indicate we're dealing with a real person

12:20

This isn't Mormonism where it's cardboard characters that these are real life like Peter denying

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Jesus I mean who would write that, you know, so you have this criteria of embarrassment even

12:32

John Dominic Crossman says two things that are historically certain that Jesus was baptized by John that's

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Embarrassing because you would expect Jesus to be baptizing John. It's a baptism of repentance

12:45

Gene and Jesus was crucified is one of the secure facts in history and Bart Ehrman and other skeptics of Christianity would agree with that my thing would be that in Mark you have more of a

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Jesus, you know, that's more human that does perform some miracles

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But it's totally different than the Gospel of John where you have Jesus saying

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I'm the vine. I'm the way like the truth I'm the bread of life you have all those I am statements Which are totally contrary to the messianic secret in Mark where he said, hey, don't tell anybody who

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I am. So You know and you have the adoptionist Theology and mark where Jesus is adopted at his baptism

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There's no birth narrative mark. We're in Matthew and Luke He has a divine birth and in John he's the logos from the beginning of the world

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So it's a trajectory. I would believe if you read Bart Ehrman's book how

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Jesus became God it looks like Christians the church imposed deity upon Jesus.

13:53

So it's a very complex question. Okay. Gotcha Let's stay along the same lines of laying the foundation

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Let's move into a little bit of testimony Andrew when did you become saved?

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Well, some would question whether I still have no No, so I I got saved at the age of 16 from a

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Jewish family It was one where for folks who don't understand

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Judaism and whatnot. It is not something that My parents were casket -chopping

14:33

I'll just put it that way that you know It's it's something that that is Bill was mentioning embarrassment having a child become a

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Christian in a Jewish home is an embarrassment and so It was you know

14:46

So I got saved at 16. I got saved You know my testimony I know is if you listen to Andrew Rapp which

14:53

Rapp report and just look for I think personal testimony You probably find it comes up a couple times. I've been on several different podcasts sharing it the longer version

15:01

So but there's that the short version was so people who want to do the math. It was 1984

15:08

I know drew you weren't even born. I get it, but two years later I was

15:16

Two years later, okay so now Along those same lines in the opposite direction bill

15:23

I know you mentioned a lot of the things that you would just you disagree with about the the

15:28

Christian view of Jesus and who? Jesus was does that also play into why you are an atheist or why you say you left?

15:37

Christianity to become an atheist Well, I became a Christian at 17. It's funny when you're in those teenage years

15:44

It's like a lot of people like Bart Ehrman Michael Sherman all of us became Christians like, you know in our teens

15:52

Of course but I was at a Sunday school class at Colonial Baptist Church in Cary, North Carolina, and someone said hey

16:01

Bart Ehrman's gonna be at the Barnes & Noble I went who's Bart Ehrman? So I went there and I went whoa,

16:07

I have no idea about Christian scholarship a New Testament scholarship And yeah,

16:13

I started reading every book. He wrote and yeah, and by the way, he's on our YouTube thing

16:18

We had more views with our thing with Bart Ehrman than any other person, okay

16:23

So, okay, so you've mentioned you've mentioned Bart Ehrman several times I'm guessing you've read a lot of Bart Ehrman's books and heard probably a lot of his lectures and or debates

16:34

What's your opinion about and this get is getting into a little bit of textual criticism.

16:40

What is your opinion about the? variance in the Bible Well Bart Ehrman's famous line

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There's new more words in the New Testament or more errors in the New Testament manuscripts There are words in the

16:52

New Testament like estimates are like he has made 400 ,000 I've actually heard Christian say it's 500 ,000

16:58

But I just is most of the variants are inconsequential obviously, you know misspellings word or whatever

17:04

But there are some I asked him this, you know when he was giving a talk in Chapel Hill.

17:10

There are some that affect Theological doctrines like nor the

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Sun no one knows the day of the hour neither the angels in heaven nor the Sun So some manuscripts don't have that some do so if Jesus doesn't know the time in our it does have the electrical

17:27

Implications then show Hanin comma where it says these three bear testimony the father the son in the what the some manuscripts have water some have

17:39

Spirits so these things do affect like When Jesus is in the garden and he's sweating blood a lot of manuscripts leave that out

17:48

Some have him sweating blood to combat docetic heresies and Bart Ehrman's scholarly book

17:56

Orthodox corruption of Scripture he goes into that where it's mostly these variants and these corrections that the scribes do are to combat

18:06

Docetic heresies where they believe Jesus wasn't really human. He just appeared from the word dose of this

18:13

So yeah, so me, you know, and I did I'm actually I don't know if I mentioned in debate

18:18

But I definitely taught the students, you know, the way they count the numbers would be more like five hundred thousand and There's a different.

18:27

I I think that the argument that Bart Ehrman makes is an apples to orange comparison So the issue here is

18:34

You're taking something like Lord Jesus Christ Lord Christ Jesus Christ Christ Jesus as four different variances

18:41

That's how they get that. I mean, how do you have four or five hundred thousand? Variances when you only have a hundred and thirty -eight thousand

18:49

Greek words in the New Testament, right? Well, that's how they get it It's it's there's different variant readings

18:55

So what I actually did was I went through the in the Greek New Testament and look for how many?

19:00

Words period have a variance because that's what you need to do the comparison The comparison needs to be between all the words in the

19:10

Greek that have variant readings It doesn't matter how many variant readings just that they have a variant reading and you compare that to the number of words

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And so when you do that, you have about thirty six thousand words of which

19:23

Or thirty six hundred words. Sorry of which when you if you use the 1 % which is what

19:29

I think Bart Ehrman would use as a conservative number really and you Wallace would say it's one -fifth of 1 % are in the

19:35

Meaningful and viable that means we can't get back to the original and it changes the meaning And so you're talking about like 30 36 words, but real quick No man knows that they are the hour the problem that most people have with that is they don't understand

19:51

Jewish idioms When I first heard someone trying to explain that passage he spent my pastor.

19:57

He spent 20 minutes trying to explain it I just asked him afterwards. I'm like, why didn't you just say it's a Jewish idiom and he's like what? Yeah It's an idiom referring to marriage that the only the son doesn't know the day or hour that he's gonna get married

20:09

Only the father knows and he's supposed to be living in Expectancy like as if any moment could be the moment and if you read the context there

20:17

That's exactly what it talks about living as if Christ could come back at any moment So it fits with the with the idiom now

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We could say the idiom that we know of today the way Jewish people would use it doesn't include the angels

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I think the reason is is because Somewhere rabbinic Judaism. They they stopped believing in angels.

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There's many Jewish people today that don't believe in angels Maybe they dropped it for that. Maybe it was part of the original idiom

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And so I don't think that actually changes the meaning of anything And if we say well, we can't get back to the original see it's not changing the meaning of who

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Christ is Because it's we have to understand the language as an idiom and as far as the johannine thing of the three -in -one

20:58

I Never use that to defend the Trinity. So it doesn't Yeah, it's like and that's the point

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The issue being is is there a Christian doctrine? For Christian doctrine had me it had to be solely on that one passage

21:12

Like if that passage in John is all we have to prove the Trinity then, you know bill makes an excellent point, right?

21:19

But I never turned to that one ever They're being justified

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By Jesus we have peace with God Is it justified or are we being justified and Bruce Metzer gave that passage in a so the difference is are we?

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Justified is this a finished thing or is it a work in progress? So it has a theological implication and there's manuscripts that have it one way in manuscripts

21:47

And the good news is we have 5 ,000 Greek manuscripts Syriac Coptic all sorts of Thousand now.

21:54

Yeah, we're like eight or nine. Yeah, so it's by the way So it looks like Bill has some some fans in the house here.

22:01

I don't know who Daniel Ray is, but he says He said he says hello to you

22:11

I'm gonna assume he just had a typo there unless your nickname is bull You might change after the

22:22

Okay, yeah Andrew, is there anything else you wanted to add to that Explanation of some of those passages whether it be the

22:29

Kami Oh honey. Um, no, I think I hit it Yeah, I mean the only my only point with it would be I don't

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I don't think any of those Change the theological belief we have because we don't rely on those

22:41

There's one that says Jesus was is it compassionate toward the lepers, you know

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He healed nine lepers and then you know, he goes my god if I have to heal one more leper I'm gonna go crazy and then he the other

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Translation one manuscript has he was angry at the leper. So it impacts the nature of Jesus, but it's well

23:02

But do do is if we didn't if we didn't have that right when yeah, it wouldn't affect anything

23:09

Yeah Okay So Andrew, this is for you.

23:15

Is it important to you? That things in the Bible seem so out there that they couldn't have been written by man yeah, and I Didn't mark this as being one that was asked because it was worded differently.

23:30

It was work There was a question like this during debate so And when

23:35

I think of it with the quote -unquote out there, you know things like talking donkeys axe, you know axes floating in water

23:45

The the Sun standing still for an hour These are things that people we look at in the natural world and say well that doesn't happen so is it important that the things in the

23:59

Bible seem so out there that they Couldn't have been written by man. Well, I don't

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I don't think that if it's out there means it couldn't have been written by man because I've read the

24:10

Book of Mormon and and doctrine and covenants and They're further out there.

24:16

I mean not so much Mormon, but like the other the other, you know, where they start saying that we're you know, the Heavenly Father had a we have a wife from another planet and you know

24:27

That's out there right in an attempt to explain where God came from so I don't think that It's that it's out there

24:36

One of the things that did come up in the debate bill brought up in the debate the zombies as he referred to them in Matthew and and my point there was you know, like Bill's point was hey they're like there's just this comment about people coming up from the dead and My point with that is what we see in In the writing of human beings that people wouldn't just say something like that and move on They say something supernatural or out there and they explain it the fact of what you see in the

25:06

Bible There's just these things that are just mentioned and moved on like that's one of them It just mentions pill rose from the from the dead and we're preaching the about Jesus and move on to the next topic

25:18

That is not what we'd see if it was human written One thing that you can help me with this

25:25

Andrew. I was in a Mid -city theological discussion. We used to meet at IHOP and I said, well, okay

25:32

Okay, hold I got to stop you for one second for the audience some field You're probably not aware. I hop is for some people that don't know international pancakes

25:42

Not the group International House of Prayer. Okay continue So I brought up the part in Leviticus where if a woman has her period you take her away

25:54

She can't touch any lamps or you know beds or anything because it would be in clean so she has to go and be secluded for what

26:02

Andrew a couple weeks or I'd have to look it up again. Whatever. She's secluded.

26:08

So I said look girls. Does that sound like a guy a Man a

26:13

Jewish man is writing this or does it sound like God is writing this and they go? Well, obviously it's

26:19

God because that's a great idea. They haven't secluded for two weeks Okay, before you get the next question just a programming note

26:33

David Oh is saying Andrew just a heads -up. Bill's mic is much lower compared to yours and Drew's We I was trying to fix something with his

26:42

With that echo sound we're getting and so I had turned off the automatic volume.

26:48

I turned it back on So just let me know if that in the chat. Let me know if that's No, no,

26:53

I think it was done. I did on my end So we'll see. Okay now let's stay on the topic of Text that the text just for for one moment and then

27:06

I want to shift gears a little bit Because of the question some of the questions that have come in but during the debate

27:14

The topic of Matthew 24 came up and I want to ask this in two parts

27:20

I want to ask it to Andrew one way and then Bill I want to ask it to you and another Andrew when you're talking about Matthew 24 your argument was that when

27:29

Jesus is speaking He's speaking of the generation that would see the signs that he mentions would take place

27:37

So, so my question for you is How do you explain Jesus's use of the second person pronoun you when he's talking to that group?

27:47

Is this just because you want to push your post millennial? It was going through my head when when y 'all when

27:56

I was watching the debate As you're asking the government going that wasn't from the students this is a

28:04

Drew personal Okay, so Matthew 24, right it says Jesus came out from the temple and was going away with his disciples and Bill just if you mute if you could mute when you're not.

28:17

Yeah. Sorry. I don't know what it is It's on that started with streamyard and we thought we fixed it last week

28:22

But sometimes the guests we have this problem. I don't know why it is But okay, so Jesus came out from the temple and was going away

28:30

When his disciples came up to point out the the temple buildings to him and he said to him

28:37

Do you see these things truly? I say to you not one will be left upon the other

28:46

Which will not be torn down so he's talking they're just you know the the idea here is that they were if you if you look at the geography they were looking over the you know the

28:59

Beautiful gold dome that would be of the temple and the the temple was like the big thing that they focused on This gets into the whole issue of signs what what to look for, right?

29:13

So he it says he was sitting on the Mount of Olives the disciples came to him privately Saying tell us when these things will happen and what will be the sign of your coming at the end of the age?

29:25

So after this Jesus is gonna start talking about the the fact that he is, you know, all these different things that were our signs and You know, so the argument is that he's gonna say that the generation

29:40

I'm trying to see which verse specifically if you know drew offhand You know what

29:47

I could do it this way hold on I'll just in my logos just search for generation I Could spell generation doesn't have a unit generation

30:01

All right, so it is verse 34, all right So He said he so he's explaining all the signs

30:12

Right. He's he's speaking of of things right from the beginning in in verse 24

30:22

He's he's saying Okay See that no one misleads you

30:29

Okay. So who's he speaking to there? Is it just the disciples or is this more general to more people?

30:37

Well clearly, you know as you read through this he has a wider audience than just the disciples

30:46

You'll hear rumors of wars and and You know earthquakes and all that all this stuff so when he talks about And now

30:58

I've lost the verse was at 34, right Yeah, okay. And so he gets down low context 32

31:06

Now learn the parable of the fig tree Its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves.

31:14

You know, it's summer is near so You too when you see all things

31:22

Recognize that he is near right at the door. Truly. I say to you this generation will not pass away

31:29

Until these things take place. So he's saying to those who are hearing him there. I say to you

31:37

This generation now that the generation there is a definitive article Okay, so the the issue is what who does that refer to?

31:47

Not who does the you refer to and so that this generation will not pass away until these things take place

31:54

I would say is the the generation that sees or that sees the olive branch in verse 32

32:00

Right the one that sees the signs So so let me

32:08

Draw that question a little more in verse 33 When Jesus says so you too when you see all these things before he even starts talking about Generation there when he says when you also see these things

32:23

So so are you saying that he's talking in a broader? Generality that's still connected to the generation that sees those signs.

32:32

Yeah, I think so That doesn't work well with your your theology

32:38

I get it true it doesn't for bill Common joke we do each week is we you know at some point we have to bust on his post millennialism and he busts on my pre -millennialism

32:48

I'm just saying, you know, it doesn't matter my thoughts about this at the moment because this is a conversation between You and Bill I'm just moderating

32:59

Yeah on purpose. So so David is saying if if Bill can move the mic closer to his mouth

33:05

So, okay Can you hear me now? Yep. Okay that Dale Allison has written a book.

33:12

He's the expert Resurrecting Jesus. He says in the epilogue. Jesus was wrong

33:17

So he's a Christian, but he recognizes that Jesus was wrong on this point

33:23

He made a false prediction Bart Ehrman that both of these scholars came to the same conclusion that we best understand

33:30

Jesus as an apocalyptic Prophet who had a bad week in insurance so so Bill The question

33:37

I was going to ask you that's kind of along the same lines I'm are you familiar with the late

33:43

Christopher Hitchens, of course Okay, so so some years ago Christopher Hitchens did a debate tour with Douglas Wilson and I'm gonna ask all of our listeners to shoulder their views of Doug Wilson.

33:58

Okay Don't crucify me But he did a debate tour with Douglas Wilson and he raised the very question that that you asked

34:07

He said Jesus was wrong. He predicted his own coming and he said he was wrong How do you explain that and so Wilson's response was that?

34:16

Jesus was talking about the destruction of the temple and his coming in judgment And so my question to you is given what

34:23

Christopher Hitchens Asked which is along the lines of your same question of Jesus being wrong

34:30

What are your thoughts about the view that Jesus this wasn't his second bodily coming

34:37

But this was a coming of destruction on the temple Why do you put so much

34:45

Emphasis on the scholars like Dale Allison. There are the experts. There's the one. They're the ones that know the

34:50

Greek They're the ones that have written all these books on Jesus. So I just have to go with what the experts say

34:57

And it could be who knows You might be the right Okay Andrew is there anything you want to piggyback out on that?

35:07

Yeah. Okay, so we'll move on we'll get into a little bit of creation evolution

35:13

Bill do you believe in the Big Bang Theory? Even though there is scientific evidence against it well, obviously, you know, by the way, we're having

35:23

Lawrence Krauss on at the book next month and Obviously, he would be believe in the

35:29

Big Bang and you know, it was the background radiation is an evidence The universe we found was expanding with the

35:37

Hubble find back a hundred years ago or whatever So if it's expanding and it's going faster as it gets out there further then it makes sense that if you wind it back it had a beginning and They say they can get back to 10 to the minus 43rd plank time

35:54

You can go back What just happened to bill

36:02

You know He might have touched something which is what his wife warned him against Teresa Okay, he's

36:12

All right. I'm gonna mute him until he gets back on camera. He's he's calling for his wife his girlfriend to help out.

36:17

Sorry There we go, oh we got the wrong camera though Yeah, you gotta unmute yourself and then

36:29

If We could we could just stick on that view. You don't know how to switch the camera. Okay?

36:39

So, can you hear me? Yeah, we can hear you. We'll work on the camera later. So Yeah, so there it seems to be evidence the background radiation discovered years ago and so forth

36:51

But what's interesting, you know I was in a creation evolution class and we talked for ages about this stuff and I've learned a lot about science and so Forth, but when

37:02

I came here to Dallas, all they wanted to talk about was Calvinism It's like gosh

37:07

I just waste years doing this All right, so so Andrew, do you want a chance to respond to the idea of the

37:19

Big Bang Theory and evolution? Yeah, I mean look the issue with the Big Bang and they

37:25

I'm just Just unmute yourself when you want to talk And so the the

37:30

Big Bang, I mean, yeah is the person said in the in the question, you know, there's science There's science evidence against it

37:38

I'm Drawn a blank on the name of the mathematician that calculated that it's math big bang is mathematically impossible

37:45

The big bang requires something to first be there, right? And so I mean stephen hawking's in his book says that there was nothing and that nothing was actually something well

37:55

I mean nothing is what rocks dream of Nothing's not something and something's not nothing

38:01

So yeah, laurence krauss wrote a book a universe from nothing and he believes you have quantum fluctuations But still how do you get this expansion?

38:09

This inflation that just so fast the universe expands to a hundred thousand light years or whatever.

38:15

I mean, it's just incredible Uh, it has to expand at just the right rate If it goes too fast, you won't get galaxies formed if it goes too slow

38:24

You just get a big crunch into a black hole. So this thing has to be extremely precise

38:30

And you have all these fine -tuning things like the gravitational constant The energy which is 10 to the 60th the energy density of empty space is 10 to the 120th

38:40

So all these things have to go just right for this to work Yeah, and actually that works against you because everything has to be just right and that math doesn't where I mean,

38:51

I I that's why I say The the the magic of evolution is is you just keep adding more years to it to make the math work

38:58

But and that's why because when I was a kid the universe was, you know, a few hundred billion years old or you know

39:05

Or a million years old now. It's billions of years old Um, I think I think I think the latest number is five or six billion.

39:12

It keeps increasing 13 .7 billion Oh, there we go. So i'm Having kept up on it

39:18

Right, but it keeps they keep adding time and I think that um, because the math doesn't work for it

39:24

How the thing is god just creates everything out of nothing So how how do you get the expansion because god created it?

39:32

I mean it just he he can do that the the fact that You have nothing that somehow becomes everything how could that even be when we compare like Having god create something and have it

39:47

Expanding is not outside the realm of what we we see Nothing becoming everything without any

39:55

Any mind any force to create it? That's magic

40:03

Well, uh, so so bill I would uh a question I have is uh, do you believe that there are such things as miracles

40:12

Oh, that's a tough one because I had witnessed a miracle when my girlfriend aerobics teacher in north carolina

40:19

Had her shoulder Dislocated or whatever and uh, he the doctor said six weeks

40:25

To heal and then the next day she was teaching aerobics and I went to the doctor I said, what do you think of that miracle? And he goes she's a mighty healer and it's like you know, so yeah, and we've had the uh people on that have written books about miracles and when you look at the new testament you just have to um

40:43

Give an example jesus walking on water. Okay. We gotta try to see is this historical?

40:48

Is this a real historical event and the problem is in mark jesus walks on the water

40:53

But in matthew you have jesus and peter walking on the water So which is true and is that diversity?

41:02

Does that add credibility to it? The problem is it's a one -time event. We can't say hey get the camera over here

41:08

Let's get a different angle and do this again so we we just have to go by the testimony of the

41:14

You know, maybe witnesses and you know, it's it's a so the reason

41:20

I I ask that question is because um If evolution and the big bang is true

41:26

Then that would be a miracle that we ended up our earth ended up where where it is the distance it is from the sun

41:32

Where the moon is from the earth for gravity, uh to to have its constant

41:38

Uh in our world for us to be able to have the air that that we're breathing Um, so it seems it seems like uh, it takes a lot of faith to be uh someone who holds to the big bang and evolution rather than believing that there was you know,

41:54

God who just created by the word of his mouth. Can you guys see this? One over one hundred and fifty seven thirty seven.

42:02

Yeah So it gets worse. Uh, the fine structure constant is one over one thirty seventh

42:08

If this thing isn't just right if it's too big you won't get chemistry if it's too small things don't go right

42:15

And if it's not if this thing isn't just right, you don't get carbon forming in stars with supernovas

42:22

So Richard Feynman one of the great physicists said every physicist should look at this number and where So it's just so much

42:32

Things that have to go precisely right for this to all happen and evolution man, it's so complex because You look at some things like endogenous retroviruses that we have them lemurs and chimpanzees that seem to indicate a common ancestor

42:49

And why would God put these endogenous retroviruses there? And you have the homology and the like the well evolution where you seem to have a nice little trend of fossils showing this

43:01

But then again, you have the Cambrian explosion where most of the major phyla like Echinoderms, Chordatas, things with bacteria like us

43:11

Trilobites, whatever, you know all these major phyla Jellyfish and so forth seem to arrive on the scene 540 million years ago all at once.

43:22

Now You look at the other side and go. Oh, well there is pre -cambrian precursors That you know led to these major phyla

43:30

So it's extremely complex and right now we're having a big debate with like Joshua Swamidas who says hey

43:38

You can have an Adam Neve 6 ,000 years ago and then William Lane Craig saying oh no,

43:43

Heidelberg Yensis man 750 ,000 years ago was the original Adam and I just heard today that 950 ,000 years ago

43:53

The human species almost went extinct. It was down to like 1 ,200 And what's interesting in this recent thing

44:00

I watched is William Lane Craig goes well we'll just have to keep up with the new post and the new events.

44:06

It's like well Are you supposed to base your faith on the latest science on the next round of genetic research?

44:14

And so it's extremely difficult extremely confusing And what

44:20

I preach and to the kids out there is it's okay to have doubt and uncertainty Because these things are you'd have to be an expert in genetics and uh, you know

44:32

Phylogeny, you know all sorts of things to really understand this stuff You know, it's funny

44:37

Andrew because it sounds like he's pointing out the same problems with William Lane Craig that we point out with In the book we're talking about is the quest for historical

44:48

Adam and see you have Things like reasons to believe that says oh well Adam was 120 ,000 years ago and that the

44:56

Neanderthals were soulless hominids where William Lane Craig would say Oh, no, those those are us.

45:03

They're our fellow, you know cousins and stuff Neanderthals So and then biologicals would have another issue.

45:09

So it's all over the place And you know, it's fascinating you do learn a lot about uh, genetics and research and radiometric dating

45:18

So this stuff is I talked to the young people and by the way, these questions you guys asked that legacy are just amazing

45:26

I'm, just so impressed with Your guys, uh, you know knowledge on this stuff.

45:31

Yeah, that was true. And let me just recommend uh with what bill's saying there's a dvd but i'm sure you can get it in like streaming nowadays, but privileged planet is

45:42

I think the name of it and it goes through all the the I mean If I remember correctly they said that you know, it's the the chance of everything being so perfect is you know one to the power of like 127.

45:57

Oh, it's just incredible. That's just one thing like we had stephen meyer on and We said what's the chances of a protein forming because you have all these amino acids first of all

46:07

They have to be left -handed. You got the chirality problem You have a hand in this where they have to be all left -handed And then the chance of one of those like getting 150 amino acids in the right order to form a protein

46:19

These things have to be folded just right too It's just incredible. So, um yeah, there's just so many difficulties and you have to have the polysaccharides the nucleotides the lipids of The membrane is just not that simple.

46:34

It's semi -permeable So how in the world do you get life off the ground? You know

46:40

That's why frank turk says he doesn't have enough faith to be an atheist Right because I mean you have the left -handed aminos right hand

46:46

You you know, it's we only see one But they both have to have been there And so, you know, there's so many things when you look at the ideas that people have of the creation in the universe in life that just Do not add up without there being a creator, you know

47:04

The amino acids you have the fact of you know, the oxygen level I mean there's there's a ton and uh, so yeah

47:12

Andrew did you want to touch on the uh evolution question, uh, or respond to uh

47:21

Bill's answer I I think I mean, I think he did a good job of exposing the problems that evolution has

47:27

Well in another quick example, well evolution is supposed to be one of the best evidences for evolution

47:33

But I from a life of me. I can't see how pachycetis a land dwelling looks like a calf or locale on land

47:40

Somehow over the brief time of 10 million years goes to amblycetis duoderms and Bacillusaurus and eventually turns into What we have today whales.

47:52

I mean It just I don't get it I would like to ask a question, uh to both of you along the same lines of what you just asked is uh

48:02

When we look at evolution evolution by necessity Means that organisms have to gain information

48:08

Uh, they have to gain new information into themselves in order to evolve Now what scientists have noticed is that no organism has ever gained information.

48:18

We've only seen it decrease in information so uh, do either of you want to speak to the idea of Yeah, let me let me just correct.

48:28

Let me correct your question To be more precise so we do see a gain of information.

48:33

It's a mutation. We've seen mutations. Sure. Okay What's required is a beneficial?

48:41

Reproducible adding of information right at cancer is the adding of information, right?

48:48

You know, is this a mutation official? No now some will argue uh

48:54

If you have they'll talk about celiac disease with malaria

49:00

And say see here's something that is beneficial and reproducible, but it is beneficial only to those who are getting malaria

49:08

And deadly to like everybody else. So it's really not a it's it's positive only in helping with malaria but that's kind of more the

49:20

That's not what actually has I mean it still will kill people if they're you know, not eating properly so The so to be more specific.

49:28

No, we don't see any beneficial Reproducible adding of information to the dna and yes, it would it would require evolution will require so many of them

49:39

Even if if there if man was millions of years on earth, it would require so many

49:46

Of these changes we should be seeing it everywhere and when we actually look at the fossils we actually look at the evidence

49:53

We see gaps That's why you end up having people to say well instead of it being this slow change there was something that occurred that made really quick changes and that's why we don't see all the

50:04

Transitional forms we just see fully formed and there was a debate between james tord professor dave recently

50:11

You know, it's one of the most dynamic debates Uh, you'll ever see The problem is they cite papers and the words they use.

50:19

I can't understand half the words they use so but I do kind of See james torres point that when you have these reactions.

50:29

Here's one of the problems It's not that you get too much left over stuff too many

50:34

Uh chemicals and byproducts that can mess up the reactions So that's you know, a big problem is and i've heard other uh chemists say the same thing that the the excess of byproducts can

50:50

You know mess up these reactions and you know be deleterious to the Progress, but the problem is they they need to You know tell us so we can understand it steven meyer when he interviewed james torr actually did a pretty good job saying let

51:05

Tell us so we can understand this stuff, but it's extremely complex and you know, we just you know have to try to figure it out

51:14

Okay, uh, let me get to a question, uh Here that we highlighted for bill.

51:20

Uh, where did we come from? Why are we here? And where are we going? um

51:31

I don't know where we came from I guess Why are we here? Who knows

51:36

I mean as an atheist what you have to do is just Existentially try to find eke out some meaning in life because ultimately

51:44

You know if the heat death of the universe the sun expanding and you know, just earth being ultimately destroyed

51:49

It's all going to be meaningless. So, you know with myself I play pickleball

51:54

I do art and which is very rewarding. So I try to find you know, meaning there and where are we going?

52:03

Here's the thing. We don't know we probably there's been mass extinctions the permian

52:08

Uh, the jurassic extinction, uh, rbkt with the kt boundary and all that these there seems to be just these big extinction events and Hugh ross even says we only have we're one good supernova

52:22

From being going extinct so it could be less and I think he says it's less than a hundred thousand years so My point to christians is jesus said

52:32

I go to prepare a place for you a mansion I wouldn't tell you if it wasn't true so The thing is if you're putting your faith in jesus in that mansion in the sky

52:44

Man, it's it's gonna be a big leap. It might be true, but there's a lot of problems with it

52:52

And so so this is probably why the original debate topic that I had asked for bill and I to debate

53:00

Was secular humanism is superior to christianity Because that would actually have to make bill argue for secular humanism, which as you can see he's he's he's gonna have a hard time

53:11

Doing because because the studies show that people who truly believe in atheism and secular humanism

53:19

That don't believe there's an afterlife Studies show that they are more willing to mistreat people

53:26

Because they don't they don't think there's going to be consequences in in the next life Um, and as far as the extinctions, there's only one extinction that we really know of it's called the flood extinction

53:39

Well, you know I took a class in legends and genesis at the university of north carolina I asked the guy

53:45

You know, he just destroyed it with the p and j Genesis is a blended narrative with the p writer

53:51

Saying seven days for the flood or 40 days and the p writer saying 150 and distinctions

53:56

And if you don't know hebrew, you can't really tell what's going on But I said hey just tell me straight out, you know, did this flood happen or not?

54:04

Was there a call and he goes he looks at and he was catholic and he looks at me like i'm Crazy because it'd have to be zero

54:12

It's like hey you might not realize this being in your little catholic bubble and here at the university

54:17

But people believe there was a global flood Well, actually actually it's kind of interesting because even discovery channel did a show where they looked at the grand canyon and they too believed that there was a

54:30

Flood and they but they were but it wasn't global and yet they were looking at the evidence. That was all showing that.

54:36

Yeah It's there. They just don't want to believe the evidence that's in front of them And again, you have hugh ross's ministry reasons to believe local flood.

54:44

So there's yeah different views Okay now let's uh uh

54:52

I want both of you to comment on the famous cs lewis quote That god is either a liar a lunatic or he's lord

55:03

Andrew you can go first. Okay All right, and I was gonna say it was we'll let bill go first since I went first last time but since you said

55:10

No, I didn't. I thought I asked bill the first question. Oh, did you? Yeah, so, um, yeah

55:16

I mean, I would say this. Uh, I think that the the idea of the the quote I'm, not sure if it's original with cs lewis, but he's most known for it

55:24

Is you really have one of three scenarios of who christ is either he lied about being god

55:31

He knew he wasn't god. He lied about it in which case He's a liar. We shouldn't be following him

55:38

Or he's a complete lunatic that he thinks he is god That and again, then we shouldn't follow him or he actually is who he claimed.

55:48

He is he's lord And the evidence we have that he is lord is that he said he would raise himself from the dead after three days

55:57

And that's what he did Dead people rot they don't raise themselves from the dead because they're well dead

56:05

And so the fact that jesus could say he will raise himself from the dead And then be seen by over 500 witnesses

56:14

That is the proof that he is who he claimed to be that he was god or is god

56:21

Okay, this is one of my favorite questions There's a fourth alternative which cs lewis didn't say and that's called legend so We have legendary embellishment where like the zombies in matthew where you know

56:35

The dead saints rising and so for clearly even mike lacon and we might craig say this is just apocalyptic talk

56:41

So the problem is what is legendary? What is historical and what's legendary? There's a lot of legendary embellishment like the whole book of john and we were talking about the jesus seminar

56:53

All the the 70 premier scholars said none of that comes back to jesus so and again

57:00

If you read barterman's book how jesus became god they imposed dd up on jesus jesus

57:06

And if you look at mark, he didn't think of himself as god. That was later legendary

57:12

You know embellishment. So in uh, uh along the same lines of that when you bring in legendary

57:20

Would you do you think it would be fair to say that that same standard could apply to Uh what we know of historical men who came before jesus such as julius caesar

57:31

And things like well, it's funny you mentioned That because well julius caesar we have hostile witnesses, which we don't have with jesus him crossing the rubicon

57:40

There's things wouldn't have worked out the way they did in the civil war if it wasn't for him crossing the rubicon

57:46

So and we have hostile with with jesus. We just have believers Uh that are writing and they're they say so but you might believe so, um

57:55

That's the problem. We would like to have outside critical References instead of you know, such biased you know accounts

58:05

Yeah, let me let me real quick address one thing and i'll just share my screen real quick so we could see uh, you know the argument that Mark was the first gospel.

58:16

It doesn't really mention about jesus being god Well, let's take let's take a look. Here's all the verses in mark

58:23

That refer to jesus as being god directly or indirectly So when we say well mark really doesn't talk about jesus being god

58:31

I'm moving slowly and when you see a two in parentheses, it means that there's two different References to his deity in a single verse

58:39

And so just as I go through this you end up realizing that depending on whether you take the long the

58:45

How would you deal with the longer? Uh Ending of mark whether you consider that to be scripture or not.

58:52

Um, I don't so What you have is four hundred and five of You know references to jesus being god in the 666 verses or if you want to look just at the verses 311 verses out of 678 that's 50

59:13

Basically, uh 46 percent rounded up So 46 percent of the gospel of mark refers to jesus as god

59:22

And if if that's the best you have to say that it's embellished In what you say is the first of them half the gospel refers to jesus as god

59:34

I think that's pretty strong that very early even by what you'd say bill is the earliest document supports

59:41

But in mark, he seems to you know have the messianic. Hey, don't tell anybody, you know who I am

59:46

Uh, you know the messianic secret Uh, he's speaking in parables totally different than john where all he does is talk about himself, you know

59:54

I'm the way, you know He who believes in me will never I mean what a difference did did mark just not get the memo

01:00:01

No, because mark mark wanted to prove that he was a servant And in actually not just mark, but the others you see that really jesus would say that to the jewish way

01:00:11

He had no problem saying to gentiles letting them spread it Uh, so it was a thing that with that was specific to the knowledge that he had as being god what might happen if everyone started sharing that he is the the messiah it would

01:00:28

And he scripture even says That he had to go hide because they were going to make him king so um, yeah, so so i'm just the point being is if people want to say well mark doesn't speak about jesus being god

01:00:42

Well, okay Half almost half of mark refers to jesus as god granted the gospel of john

01:00:49

There's going to be more in the gospel of john but to argue that jesus Didn't say it

01:00:56

You or sorry that mark didn't uh pointed out is is just not accurate Well and mark, you know where he healed the paralytic, you know, they

01:01:07

I think they went through the roof remember that And he said what's easier to have your sins forgiven and that has a degree of barrel of similitude that I could see

01:01:16

Pharisees saying oh my gosh, you know, what are you doing healing him on the sabbath or whatever and nitpicking him, you know, and so You just have to tease it out and say is this historic and that's what scholars like dale allison.

01:01:29

Do they look at each? Miracle and event in the life of jesus on a case by case and they try to tease it out whether it's historical

01:01:37

Yeah, so so I mean just to to give you all the gospels the the gospel of matthew is

01:01:46

You know and numbers are hard to get in in audio I get but 482 unique verses

01:01:52

Okay that are mentioned out of a thousand seventy two seventy one verses all together. That's 45 percent.

01:01:57

In other words Percentage wise mark refers to jesus as god more than matthew does

01:02:06

Luke who's trying to show that he's a man is 39 Now granted the gospel of john right, that one is basically, like, you know, eight, uh 66 67

01:02:21

So yes, that one has the most but the when we look at this the reality is mark refers to jesus as god percentage wise more than matthew or luke

01:02:32

This is something that you don't hear the scholars talk about because they don't they don't look at this the way an engineer would

01:02:38

It would and that's how I am right? So percentage wise no mark mark speaks of jesus being god more than any other of the gospels other than john

01:02:52

Did you did you want to respond to the next question? Okay, i'll just mention that i'm just gonna give a shout out to stan

01:02:59

I used to go to church with stan a great guy, but he says 40 of the gospel mark refers to jesus god I didn't know that Yeah, were you listening when

01:03:07

I was teaching no There we go, there's the proof he was sleeping like everyone else when

01:03:13

I was teaching Oh goodness andrew

01:03:21

You know, i'm really good at putting people to sleep i'll have you know, in fact In fact, if you did want to get to sleep

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It's a good thing. I had my Earphones in so my wife didn't hear about the sale for my pillow

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Oh you want me to you want me to send her Next No Because she'll say

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I want another one You'll have to explain the the battle that goes on in your house over over me giving gifting you a my pillow.

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Yeah, so so Uh, andrew gifted me a my pillow

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I'd never had one before and I got it and I loved it. Okay, then My wife started taking it

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And so she started using it so this is what I did I got her a my pillow and so now she has a my pillow

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I have a my pillow and then Because uh, our son will come into our bed and sleep into our bed

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He started taking my my pillow So it's just it becomes no longer mine

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Which would be perfect for your son the dog took my pillow Hmm Well, we don't have one but if I did he would probably take it too

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Yeah, he would he probably would Okay, so, uh, let's get into this question here that's from bible care and share fellowship

01:06:02

He asks how do does atheists square the prophecy and history of israel?

01:06:10

So Actually, that's a pretty remarkable prophecy who would have known that you know When the destruction of the temple when the jews went to the diaspora

01:06:18

That they would somehow 2 000 years later, you know as the bible predicted I think in isaiah.

01:06:24

Is that right andrew? Or ezekiel these bones will come alive In 1948 seems to be a remarkable prophecy

01:06:34

So so to answer the question that bill just asked who would have known god See now folks for folks listening on the podcast you you this is one where you guys you kind of have to watch

01:06:50

To see like when i'm making a comment like that. So people might think i'm being snarky bill's laughing

01:06:56

He's muting himself, but he's laughing. Okay Oh goodness okay, so let's get uh, you know, it's it's funny because I didn't know if we would get through all these questions and We've got through um

01:07:13

I'm saving i'm saving one of them, uh towards towards the end But we've got through the ones of andrew and we've got through a good number of them

01:07:22

Some of these ones that are addressed to bill. Um Bill has actually answered. Um, not knowing he was he was answering that question

01:07:33

So let me look and see uh This one is for bill and it deals with some sort of uh, what we're dealing with now in our culture

01:07:44

Uh has to do with transgenderism. Where do you stand on the idea of transgenderism and homosexuality?

01:07:51

I'm, so glad you asked that let me tell you a story James and I were doing a talk in uh, tallahassee florida

01:07:58

And it was about cults and uh, it was a conference And I looked at a table and this uh guy was in the table by himself and I went over to talk to him

01:08:09

And he wrote a book his name's george carnell He wrote a book queer for christ

01:08:17

And he had I listened to him for like a half hour Just mesmerized by his testimony.

01:08:24

He moved to california. He saw this sordid side of homosexuality how Homosexuals can have

01:08:31

Tons of partners how they have raped how they use it's a very using culture

01:08:36

And he just got disgusted with it and Went through all sorts of depression stuff came to christ and now he has a thriving ministry

01:08:47

And I said, you know George it's just fantastic what's happened to you

01:08:54

But you do seem to still it was natural for you to be drawn to men not women and he goes

01:08:59

Yeah, let me tell you bill. I just wanted to test it out So they got this model supermodel to go and you know go to him and you know, try to entice them and he goes

01:09:10

So it looks like he just Wasn't interested in that sex.

01:09:15

So my only thing was well george the problem is as a christian You don't have sex and he goes.

01:09:22

Yeah, that's right So You know, what's the deal and here's the thing in the bible in leviticus.

01:09:28

I think it's 2017 If you're a homosexual They take you out to the gates and stone you

01:09:35

It gets worse in the new testament where it says neither idolatrous No, homosexuals nor fornicators will inherit the kingdom of god.

01:09:42

So now it's an eternity of punishment and uh, you know problems there so It's just a complicated issue

01:09:51

Um, I in graduate school, I had a friend and he goes bill i'm in an all -girls tennis class

01:09:58

Because any guy would love it, but it's like meaningless to me so I can somehow empathize with them but It's like man

01:10:08

How can I even comment on it? You know now it kind of tying that into our discussion on evolution

01:10:17

When we look at say the transgender movement you have men who claim to be women and think they're women and women who think and claim to be men

01:10:26

One of the things we don't see We don't see men uh

01:10:33

Through evolution turning into women and vice versa so what

01:10:39

What are your thoughts about maybe their? mental state Um, do you think that's even it's possible that evolution could uh turn men into women and women into men no, not personally, no, uh, it's just well and George was like he went through a lot of depression and suicidal temper.

01:11:01

I mean he just went through so much trauma and The relationships not working out and as far as the transgender thing.

01:11:09

Well Who knows about you know, Matt Dillahunty I don't know if you all saw the recent debate where uh, the guy kind of insulted him and about his partner

01:11:18

And you know, he just walked out. So apparently that was very you know personal to him yeah, my my argument drew for this is

01:11:29

I thought this is where you're gonna go but You know for people who say they're atheists atheism would be the belief.

01:11:35

There is no god It's the idea that we're just chemical reactions I think transgenderism is a major problem

01:11:43

For people who say there is no god be and and still hold to Transgenderism because if there's no god

01:11:52

We're just purely material entities where chemical reactions there is no immaterial part of us the reason that becomes important is if i'm

01:12:02

Born a biological male. My chemistry is male I'm going to be male.

01:12:08

I'm going to do male things and I can't go again saying I identify

01:12:14

Against my biology Right there says there's an immaterial part of me. So when we talk about this whole transgender identity it disputes atheism because it is

01:12:28

Outrightly an appeal to the immaterial part of us that the spirit

01:12:34

It's so right there is it becomes a dilemma I think for for atheists to try to hold to both

01:12:41

Because when you're holding to the transgenderism, you're you're fundamentally denying the the main premise of atheism

01:12:50

Is there anything you would want to add? Listening bill shook his head. Yes and gave a thumbs up So what you're saying is bill is in full agreement with you

01:13:00

Yeah, well what it means is that people can't hear his head shakes and he can't see his smiles, you know

01:13:07

Bill's an expressive guy just for the record I've learned like okay so last week we're playing the debate and When when i'm standing up there,

01:13:17

I can't see bill behind me all the time there's a couple times I turn around to see a reaction just to see like to make sure he understands i'm saying things in jest or You know like to see he's not getting offended by something

01:13:28

I said But when I got to watch it, I got to see so he's got he has got some I know I do this as well

01:13:33

I make a lot of facial So I can't hide what I think Uh, although i'm i'm sitting there with bill like trying to write as fast as I can with with all the things he's bringing up But yeah, it was fun to watch bill's face like on the debate as well

01:13:47

That's why I have a beard so no one can really uh film my facial expression So what are you trying to hide from your wife?

01:13:55

I don't hide anything from my wife Um That beard and let her see what your facial expressions are

01:14:05

It's always smiling always smiling. This is my smiling face All right, so so this can be uh to both of you

01:14:15

Uh, and i'll let both of you, uh expound on it. Uh, and let me begin with bill Do you believe the transgender issue or the homosexual issue?

01:14:24

Uh, do you believe that that's a that that's a moral issue? Do you believe that it touches on morality?

01:14:31

And especially once once I start once you start getting into say transgenderism and you have a man

01:14:37

Biologically a man now claiming to be a woman who's also trying to Uh do the things we see out in society play women's sports use women's bathrooms, uh force these things upon kids

01:14:48

Um, do you think this this issue is a moral issue? Um seems to be uh, you know problem we have as atheists is they go well, how

01:15:00

What do you feel about morality and what we typically say is flourishing is the key word we want people to flourish to to have the best lives they can like in pickleball,

01:15:11

I Taught someone today how to be a better pickleball player. So You know,

01:15:16

I try to go and improve people's lives like theresa You know my girlfriend she learned how to swim and you know lost a lot of weight

01:15:24

It was something very positive to her But then you're going to get into problems because what's flourishing to me might not be flourishing to other people

01:15:33

And with the transgender thing, maybe they're flourishing But maybe they're not who knows andrew

01:15:43

Yeah, I mean I think my answer will be clear yeah, I think it's a moral issue okay, and the reason

01:15:48

I would say that is because Uh, where do we get morality from from the nature of god? You know god's not transgender it goes against his nature

01:15:58

Okay, so so that was going to be my next question is uh, because bill it sounds like you you believe morals exist

01:16:06

Uh that there is such a thing as morality Uh, where where do morals come from and what is the standard of morality?

01:16:15

Is it something that that society determines? Is it transcendent? Um Well, we have frank turk on and I you might be aware.

01:16:24

He wrote a book stealing from god And his point is that us atheists steal morality from christians and that has a certain amount of truth to it that uh

01:16:34

We're in a christian culture. So yeah, I can see myself getting some morality from the christian, uh culture values and so forth uh

01:16:43

The typical response as atheist is the community Set standards that we go by the problem is talking about homosexuality where y 'all know 50 years ago you know, this thing was in the closet and it was a uh,

01:16:59

It was a a crime My gosh, look in 50 years the cultures change

01:17:05

So the the view of homosexuality has changed And they have a big voice the transgender and homosexual community

01:17:15

With the minority they don't have that many numbers, but they have a huge voice. So is that you know, uh influencing

01:17:24

Society, I don't know Andrew Yeah, I I mean

01:17:35

Yeah, I don't know that I have much to really add to it. I mean, I think it's my position i'll be clear

01:17:41

Yeah I kind of already said right? I mean it we get it from the nature of god

01:17:46

That's why is why is lying wrong because god's not a liar by stealing wrong. God's not a thief

01:17:52

Well, and I would say the bible is clear that homosexuality is wrong people like remember bishop spong james uh

01:18:00

He was like the homosexuals loved him because he said look you can be a christian You can be part of the church and you know what's going on today with that so it's just it's a tough tough issue and you have the apostle paul who

01:18:14

Uh, john shelby spong said was a repressed homosexual and if you read romans 7, he talks about I hate this thing

01:18:21

That I do and it's like well, wait a minute. Most heterosexuals don't hate their You know these things.

01:18:27

I mean, what in the world is he talking about and he seems to be um Remember that was death if you were found out to be a homosexual

01:18:35

So, you know, it's a very minority view but some people believe he was a repressed homosexual

01:18:41

Well, you know why that would be a difficult view is because it has nothing to do with his sanctification

01:18:46

It has everything to do with his salvation Uh, when you look at the greek, he actually goes in past tense.

01:18:52

So he's talking about himself coming to christ um What we would we would hold to is the belief that he clearly would have been married

01:19:01

Because he was a pharisee and that's a requirement to be a pharisee He clearly later is single

01:19:06

He's without a wife. He mentions that And he talks about abandonment. I believe my personal belief.

01:19:13

I can't prove it from scripture But just looking at the passage I just mentioned I believe that his wife abandoned him when he became a christian.

01:19:20

He was a very very uh, well -known affluent Jewish rabbi

01:19:27

Had the you know, very you know at the time probably one of the best philosophers trained under the best teachers

01:19:35

And therefore he would have he would have had a lot of clout and so in a system that's arranged arranged marriages whoever arranged a marriage with him probably also was a family that had a lot of clout and so he becoming a christian

01:19:52

Would be a stain on the family of his wife And so I think that she probably abandoned him and so I that that would argue

01:20:02

He's you know, if people are saying well, he was a repressed homosexual first off Uh, he was married to a woman

01:20:09

Would have had to have been to be a pharisee the fact that He wasn't married may have more to do with her leaving but I don't think

01:20:18

You know, you could use roman 7 to make the argument at all because it's a past tense thing referring to his coming to christ

01:20:25

Well, it's a minority view, but it's just fascinating to see The influence of pauline which we inherited pauline christianity that this guy

01:20:37

Is just you know, you know people that they go one way all the way or the other way They they don't have a middle ground that seems to be the apostle paul.

01:20:46

He's all in one way or the other And it's interesting to think that if it wasn't for paul the co -founder of christianity

01:20:55

Christianity might have just pretty much been a small sect in In jerusalem, I mean it just Paul just opened it up with the hey, you can eat a pork sandwich.

01:21:04

You don't have to get, you know circumcised. I mean, it's just amazing to think you know and to think of him on mars hill imagine being the

01:21:13

Only christian there and you have all these pagan worshipers idols And look it all changed in a few hundred years where the pig the idols were out.

01:21:23

They got the multi gods were out and Christianity was in it's amazing. Well, see

01:21:28

I would say that we have a Biblical christianity a christocentric christianity and paul was not the co -founder

01:21:36

Paul was a follower It was jesus who was the founder and taught it from the beginning Paul didn't teach some it's not like mormonism where you have joseph smith teaching that jesus, you know is

01:21:49

You know or that they're teaching. There's one god and then later joseph

01:21:54

Brigham young teaches. Oh, there's many gods, right? It's not that sort because there's nothing where you're seeing those kind of contradictions

01:22:02

Well, you do because jesus had a work salvation Where and remember in matthew not one iota of the law will disappear and here mark at paul's saying

01:22:12

Oh, I count the law as you know done and he's he believed in grace plus nothing. So totally contrary to the soteriology of jesus

01:22:21

So did jesus but jesus being god knows the hearts of men and can tell Self -righteous men you have to do works knowing that they won't

01:22:30

And and so if like if you're referring to the rich young ruler It seems like he's telling him to do works

01:22:35

But jesus being god knowing his heart is is calling out the very sin that he knows this guy is not willing to give up On he's not saying this is the way that people get saved.

01:22:45

He's saying for this specific person Here's the one thing you won't give up But then again that proves his deity now, uh bill you mentioned, uh, you mentioned frank turrick you mentioned his book stealing from god,

01:23:00

I like to call Frank turk's book stealing from bonson um But uh d asks a question here.

01:23:06

I wonder if bill has ever watched the bonson. Uh, stein debate. That's a great no Okay, um, so I would uh,

01:23:15

I would encourage you. Uh I think you would I think you would really enjoy it. I think you would like that debate

01:23:20

It is a really great debate between greg bonson and gordon stein. Yeah, i'll watch it Yeah, yeah with all the all the stuff you've watched you haven't watched fantastic debate

01:23:31

Like I said andrew you and I spent so much time on this stuff gosh

01:23:36

I'm bound to miss something, you know along the way, you know People go why do you spend so much time and you're an atheist on this stuff?

01:23:43

And you'll see if you watch the atheist christian book club with tim mcgrew about the 50 minute mark I say this is the reason because tim mcgrew pulled the greek card on me.

01:23:52

So Uh, you know you with these christian apologists like yourself andrew

01:23:58

They're so well read and so, you know well thought out that you gotta really be on your game Yeah, well

01:24:03

I was gonna say I mean you you've obviously been missing some things. I mean you've just discovered apologex live Right, and I know you're not gonna miss an episode now

01:24:10

You're gonna be watching live and you're gonna come in and ask good questions. How did I miss that? Exactly? That is funny, all right, let's see some of these uh, some of these questions or comments that uh, mostly andrew highlighted um

01:24:29

You know, I was just trying to highlight any of the questions. Do we get to all the questions? I I've been trying to highlight questions that we were asked but there's still a couple

01:24:39

Okay, here's a good one here here is a good one for bill. Um, what do you think is right with christianity?

01:24:48

um community That's the problem. We have as atheists is the community is terrible.

01:24:56

We have this book club the atheist book club and it's just uh, so tedious and we we were reading tarzan, what does that have to do with you know, atheism and these

01:25:07

Esoteric books and it's all intellectuals And oh my lord, we just have problems but christianity has a lot going for it

01:25:16

It uh, it improves people's lives apparently, uh changes I mean, that's one of the reasons

01:25:22

I came to christ because I used to hear the testimonies of people that went from drugs to Christ and how it just uh totally transformed their life.

01:25:31

So, uh, and here's the thing I play pickleball with Muslims and the problem is they don't have workout clothes, they're just Like got all this clothes on and it's just ridiculous and they don't swim swimming is just a fantastic thing to do to get your toning and just a fantastic exercise and See, you can be a christian go to a hip church and you really don't have to believe anything or do it

01:25:59

Go out of your way. Just go with the flow have your little ipad on the sofa and be cool, you know uh, but with you know things like islam you got those five

01:26:11

Prayers which is just at six in the morning people people have visited muslim countries say

01:26:16

It wakes you up at six in the morning. It's and not to mention if you have to go actually pray It's just a very tedious

01:26:24

Um, you know religion that In fact just just to throw this as a side note, uh, even in israel when

01:26:31

I was in israel in february Yeah, you were woken at six in the morning by the the muslims which just for the record

01:26:41

Was legal and allowed in israel Because judaism would not be legal and allowed in gaza

01:26:49

So just remember that when people are saying that israel wants to wipe out all the arabs or the muslims or all of gaza uh, yep you know

01:27:00

And in that book remember the book seeking, uh allah finding jesus. Yeah, uh, it's jesus

01:27:08

Had his problems. I mean, uh where someone goes. Hey, um, can

01:27:13

I bury my dead and he said hey look We got things to do. We got a you know a goal here and the kingdom's coming.

01:27:19

So yeah, he is but You know, uh muhammad with raiding caravans and you know,

01:27:26

I listened to a debate, uh from a muslim about His wife alicia and it was like, oh, she wasn't 12.

01:27:33

She was like 16 or 17 It's a 50 year old man with a 17. So she was 17.

01:27:38

It's still weird and like oh, that's the culture of the time Well, guess what if you're a prophet of god can and you you guys tell me can you don't you think you should transform the transcend culture well,

01:27:52

I would argue that the the argument is more of uh, that of uh, Mormonism, you know, we're mormonism.

01:27:59

It's like oh, well, you know, yeah that we You know, we could just change this to fit the prophet uh, but yeah, the prophet muhammad

01:28:07

More serious is that he said there are only four wives and then when he wanted a fifth wife His adopted son's wife all of a sudden god changes his mind um

01:28:18

So let me do this drew. I know you got some questions there Uh, but I see I know chuck was backstage

01:28:24

Uh during for for the whole show And I know he's his first time in I want to bring him in if that's if that's okay with you just see if he had any questions and So, uh, we'll welcome chuck let me remove the banner so folks could see chuck's twitter handle because I was cracking up at that His twitter is atheist nightmares

01:28:45

So go find him on twitter there I guess i'll have to go look you up there So welcome, uh, any any questions you have for us or or comments uh, yeah, uh, i've got some questions for bill if that's okay and I certainly appreciate him coming on and and being forthright and and all that uh, so, uh, i've been writing down some notes on the conversation and most of the conversations seems to have revolved around the idea of contradictions or potential contradictions that would

01:29:17

Refute the bible or refute christianity in some way Uh, was that a correct summation would you say?

01:29:27

He said yes, but he's muted Okay Okay, so yes, yes that yeah the contradictions are serious

01:29:36

Seriously problematic. Okay. I appreciate that. Okay. So let me ask you this. Um, Are so you're appealing to the uh, immaterial laws of logic specifically the law of non -contradiction, correct?

01:29:51

Yes Okay, so are the laws of logic, uh universally authoritative probably

01:29:58

Probably And could you expand on that just say yes, okay, i'll say yes, okay

01:30:05

And my next question would be by what ultimate authority do you declare that the laws of logic are universally authoritative?

01:30:12

I have no authority. Uh, and that's one of the problems. Uh, you're familiar with alvin planting guys.

01:30:18

Um, uh thing about uh, how do we get our morals if it's by Evolutionary argument against naturalism you're familiar with that That if we're just randomly evolved to survive

01:30:33

Not necessarily to have good moral objective values How in the world can you trust your but our morals or any our reasoning in general and it's a good point

01:30:46

Yeah, exactly. And I think that's that's what i'm getting to the materialist worldview uh does result in logical absurdity

01:30:53

Because every time that you say, uh, I me mine Uh, according to the materialist worldview

01:31:00

It's your brain chemicals Forcing you to say that yes, and every time that you have a thought that i'm thinking this i'm doing that That's potentially one part of your brain fooling another part of your brain that itself actually exists

01:31:15

And there's all sorts of problems with our memory, uh our cognitive abilities

01:31:20

We have biases. We have all sorts of problems and I have these atheist biases that i'm exposed to so There might be something out there that might change my mind that i'm not aware of I go.

01:31:32

Oh my lord How did I ever think that so i'm with you a hundred percent and like you said existentially we're just trying to eke out some meaning and Blindly, you know just trying to figure it out.

01:31:43

Let me ask chemicals. They're trying to eke out a meeting. Absolutely. Yes Yeah, so so let me let me just point this out, uh to a couple things one there was a comment much earlier that when

01:31:53

I was talking about, uh chemicals and says, uh, keith says It would be it would be when

01:31:59

I said that with transgenders It says it would be their pre -programmed brain chemicals identifying as trans so so This is an example and bill you and I talked a lot about this in debate

01:32:11

Confirmation bias. In fact, you actually brought it up Uh, and then I pointed out the rest of the debate but that's that's the thing here is that what what

01:32:20

I see and and with the questions like chuck's asking is A confirmation bias and you're admitting you you have an atheist bias um, and so Absolutely.

01:32:30

Absolutely Yeah, so so Here's a question i'd have for you

01:32:37

Could you would you be able to say with when that you're truly? open -minded

01:32:44

If you have an atheist bias that rejects information that doesn't agree with an atheist point of view

01:32:50

Probably not Okay So, you know i'm gonna put let me put this up I saw this earlier here here's rob's comment

01:32:58

He said bill is honest. You got to give him that that was the same comment that we saw last week in the debate

01:33:04

We were playing. Yeah. Yeah. All right Chuck i'll i'll hand it back to you if you want you'd look sound like you had some more questions

01:33:11

Uh, no, I think i'll leave the questions there, but I would like to uh, make a statement for bill just to think about Uh, this is whenever i'm asked, you know

01:33:21

Why I say that the christianity is true and the bible is true And and and I like to put it this way is that the biblical world view

01:33:28

Is the only world view That is internally consistent and it um, it is also consistent with the reality in which we find ourselves

01:33:37

And that any worldview or religion not based On the the authoritative word of god

01:33:44

Consisting only of the old and new testament scriptures results in logical absurdity and or evil well, and let me say that Mormonisms for instance, there's no chance

01:33:57

That that could be true because you have dna evidence that the jews never were in central america.

01:34:03

I mean this convicts killers Okay, you don't have that sort of falsifiable Thing in christianity, uh

01:34:11

Joseph smith had like 38 wives. He was just a horrible person even his own

01:34:16

Uh followers said the nanny affair where he had sex with his nanny is like he goes.

01:34:22

It's a sordid terrible affair Uh, he'd send missionaries out so he could be for his wives.

01:34:27

Why? Would god choose such a horrible person to be the leader of it christianity?

01:34:34

Jesus isn't like that. Jesus doesn't seem to have those problems And there's evidence like I was talking to iron rod the great atheist leader of our community

01:34:43

That I mean, he's a satanist now Well, whatever the thing is he said. Oh, that's all folklore.

01:34:49

No christianity The skeptics james and paul come to christ and evidence the 500 with that witness jesus some of whom are still alive

01:34:58

That's an evidence might not be like I was Talking to tim mcgrew and saying he goes it's sufficient evidence and I he goes what do you want bill?

01:35:07

Do you want like the I do want to depose those people? I do want to Uh say when where did you see jesus, you know, what was he wearing?

01:35:16

I want yes, I do want us a lot of better testimony better evidence

01:35:23

If I so I mean that's uh, well, let me just first off before you go to that Let me thank chuck and because i'm gonna put him backstage.

01:35:30

So so, uh, chuck your twitter handle again. I take You'll can see it.

01:35:36

Uh is uh Is atheist nightmares? Yeah, and I just followed him by the way.

01:35:41

Yeah, i'm gonna go i'll do that That's a great name chuck. By the way. I love your name. Okay Thank you.

01:35:48

Well, the real fireworks really happens in the uh in the comments and replies though You'll have to get into those

01:35:54

Well, hey, you're you know, welcome to come back anytime you want chuck was good to good to meet you

01:35:59

I appreciate it Thank you very much. All right so Drew go ahead Because there's a couple more of the questions that we had from the students

01:36:06

I know I wanted to to get to some I was just curious of bill's something that would be quick to but you're gonna ask them well the what

01:36:15

Chuck was just not chuck, but bill was just touching on with we need better evidence You know, this is a question

01:36:21

I was saving and uh really towards the end But I think the fact that he said that is a good time to bring it up is that Uh, is there any amount of evidence or we can say what evidence?

01:36:33

Uh would be good enough to uh to cause you to believe christ is

01:36:40

True and and christianity is true christ is lord. Well, uh, obviously hostile witnesses would be

01:36:47

Good if we had hostile witnesses, uh testify to the empty tomb um

01:36:53

The minimal facts, you know, gary. Habermas's things some of those are compelling uh, and I would agree with some of them but uh, you also have problems like the gospel of peter which was widely read in the

01:37:07

Mediterranean and by the christian communities, which has jesus going to the sky and then a talking cross behind him

01:37:14

Um, and that's our only account of jesus actually coming forth from the tomb

01:37:19

So there just seems to be problems Like I said dale allison who's like a christian sees their problems, but see you can be a christian and embrace these

01:37:29

Uh difficulties and contradictions and so forth and you know that's okay, it's just um

01:37:38

You have some really smart people like I said like david fitzgerald Who's a smart guy who believes jesus never existed.

01:37:46

That's how bad the evidence is for these people So I love some of the evidence like in galatians 1 18 where it says.

01:37:53

Hey, I went down paul says I went and met James the brother of jesus and peter's closest disciple man, and it's off the cup

01:38:00

There doesn't seem to be an agenda So that seems to put jesus pretty solid in history and even though paul doesn't know a lot about jesus's miracles

01:38:08

He's parables and so forth. He does know about the last supper of the 12 disciples

01:38:14

Uh, he knows some things. Okay, but i'd like to i'd like him to know Well, I know you the letters weren't addressing these issues

01:38:22

But do you see what i'm saying that can you feel me the what i'm saying about i'd like a little bit better evidence

01:38:28

Yeah, so so let me so you mentioned hostile witnesses uh would the Jewish leadership be hostile to jesus

01:38:38

Uh, of course, yeah, okay and yet they Pay the the roman soldiers to Say they stole the body which means that they knew the body was missing and it wasn't the wrong tomb.

01:38:50

It wasn't stolen What about demons would they be hostile to jesus? Sure And yet they use terms of deity for him claiming.

01:38:58

He's god Claiming that he's an authority over them. I mean, so you're you're saying hostile witnesses and we have them you may not like them

01:39:10

Well, you know john don mccrossan said the people that knew Didn't care, you know, like the let's say the grave robbers who knew they'd stolen the body or the

01:39:19

Romans or whatever and the people that cared the disciples didn't know where the bible was.

01:39:25

So, you know, you got Difficulties Yeah easily explained so well

01:39:34

Because hold on because we're talking about hostile witnesses, right? um We we also have to take into account

01:39:41

The guards that were standing outside of the tomb and uh, you know, we see this in matthew 28

01:39:48

The guards that were standing there the two the the tomb that was open they trembled in fear

01:39:53

They ran back to give a report and they said He's you know, he's risen.

01:39:58

It's empty and and they they told him, uh, not to say anything We'll see. Well, that would be legendary embellishment.

01:40:05

Yeah, I would I would say that they weren't We don't know if they were hostile right, but the the one but you might have a better argument with the

01:40:15

You know those that put christ to death right who is centurion who's there and then We have no king but christ yeah, well he says surely that was the son of god

01:40:26

So obviously the gospel writer could have just put that in we don't see we don't have videotape

01:40:31

We'd love to have videotape of this and then yeah, i'll be convinced. Sure. I was convinced at 17

01:40:36

You're convinced of so many things that you take Like seriously bill if you took a step back and And and watch the debate watch this and look at how many things you assume

01:40:50

To be true and you don't question Right, and yet you don't have eyewitness testimony for the things that are you know so much of your argument is based on the the

01:41:00

The ordering of mark being written first or or maybe from bargain priority. Yeah You know that there's supposedly different writers and not just moses from the the first five books all of that Conjecture that you hold to you hold to that without questioning it

01:41:19

Or at least it seems you're not questioning it and you hold to that and yet you don't have eyewitness testimony of that either so there's

01:41:28

And i'm saying this lovingly to you bill because I think you know that I I appreciate you and I I love you but it's an inconsistency that you have with the what you're holding to and it's it's

01:41:41

And I I think I know you're not going to take this You're not going to be offended by this

01:41:46

I think you're going to know my heart when I say this but It's it's a hatred that you have for god that causes you to not want to believe

01:41:53

Because because you know that i'm going to hold to the fact that everyone knows god exists that you know god exists It's just we people suppress that truth and unrighteousness

01:42:01

And it's we all start off hating god And and so it's it's it's that That hatred we have for the true god who really exists not the one that we make up in our mind that we end up rebelling against him and and I just plead with you.

01:42:19

Well, you know in romans This is what gets me this god and we are so on the same page andrew with these prosperity people with god's not friend

01:42:27

And 99 .9, you know, it's it's true not to get you started with that because he Drew drew and you will definitely be on the same page with bethel for sure

01:42:36

Well, it's like how clear could it be the romans doesn't it say we're enemies of god

01:42:44

Okay, so you're absolutely right yeah if you're an enemy you're not a you know, you don't have a loving relationship

01:42:50

I it makes sense. You would be enemies hate to hating god. So yeah, that's your point

01:42:56

So, you know, I plead your bills. I mean and I made this before I made it dinner before the debate at at the debate

01:43:03

Um, i'll plead with you again You know, I mean There was one of the comments I saw

01:43:08

I think I started Let me see if I could find it real quick. But someone was saying that it's like you you're

01:43:14

Sounding like you're oh here is rob. He said, uh, I think bill is on the cusp of coming back

01:43:21

Quote unquote coming back to christianity. Uh, he has a lot of I don't know is and fat fascinated with christianity, um my plea to you bill is

01:43:31

You're you're a smart guy you're a knowledgeable guy You're not one of these guys who's just being blinded and saying well i'm not gonna look i'm gonna look

01:43:40

Only at things that's you're looking at both sides. You're looking at things where Christianity and saying look this is right and even people that hold the same position.

01:43:49

I do are wrong with with this You're able to do that But apart from all that You're looking for evidence when you have a spiritual problem

01:43:57

You don't have an evidence problem bill you have a spiritual problem and so my plea with you

01:44:04

Is you'd repent that you'd you'd recognize that you know what all the evidence in the world You know isn't it doesn't matter

01:44:13

Because the problem you have is not an evidential one well And I can sympathize with that and sometimes there's a guy in our book club ken daniels

01:44:21

He was a former missionary to africa And they said do you want to go to the oh put me to the hottest park so He actually read robert price and these other atheists and they said wow

01:44:33

Start reading. I want you to read christian books for the next four months but the thing is he and I think a lot alike but and here he's a really more of a thinker but he

01:44:45

Analyzes everything to death, you know those type people, right? So he's very analytical very smart and i've asked him

01:44:52

I said, you know ken Do you think you might have overthought this thing? And I might have I might have the same problem

01:44:58

I might be over because I remember as a christian having that peace that transcends all understanding And you know feeling that presence of god

01:45:05

And who sometimes I ask myself and how in the world did I get here? I really don't know

01:45:12

To be honest with you Hmm So a couple of questions the students had that i'm just curious of and just just quick answers.

01:45:21

Um One was do you believe in theistic evolution? Uh, again,

01:45:26

I have real problems with it because there's evidence on both sides. Um, It just I like you said, uh, steven meyer says the information in the cambrian to have these

01:45:37

New body plans like arthropods and so forth this How do you get these morphological changes?

01:45:46

I just don't get it and You know, I know Richard dawkins says it's like a movie theater real where you have slight changes that add up to big changes

01:45:57

Okay, I can get that. I and I know i'm i'm just seeing it from this Small little point in time that if I can view it over the millions of years

01:46:06

I it might be. Oh, I see it. I got it. Yeah, but again, I just see so many problems that You know

01:46:15

I'm willing to be convinced either way One last question I have from the students was That I at least get your answers

01:46:23

One of the students asked you What do you think happens after you die? Is there an afterlife?

01:46:29

Well, it's scary because You know, it's like to think this is all you got and you just want to live, you know as meaningful a life as you can uh and do

01:46:40

As much good as you can so It's tough. Um and it's it's very reassuring if you're a christian and you do have

01:46:49

You know that belief that you know, everything's going to turn out You know good at the end, but it does lead to a little complacency where instead of trying to do things yourself

01:46:59

You go. I'll just wait for you know, kind of ride out the run out the clock till you know Jesus comes or you know, whatever

01:47:08

So, let me see if I could uh drew i'm just gonna try and go through some of the comments that we have starred here We you know, see if we can get through this and I got a

01:47:16

I got a question for the end And okay, it's just a fun question for bill. All right Uh, so this was an early question or statement toward you dare drew no shave november in full effect

01:47:27

This is this is one month of a beautiful beard right here. Yeah Uh rob had said so bill probably watched jay warner wallace and or frank turk.

01:47:37

You already mentioned frank Yes, i've watched jay. Someone actually just was telling me about jay warner today and we've had him on the book club

01:47:44

Okay, so D asked the question for bill. Is it possible that you weren't a true christian to begin with?

01:47:52

Oh, man, is that a great question? I think you know my position Yes, well in my friend eric hoven who we both know

01:47:59

Says he that wasn't among us or left us isn't among us and you have Contradict again, you have to live with the tension in romans.

01:48:07

It seems to say hey if he's Saved us how in the world he's for us who can be against us?

01:48:13

How can he lose you and jesus says those who come to be on no way lose? But then again in hebrews you go.

01:48:19

Whoa if you forsake jesus and his You know resurrection and his sacrifice what's left for you know to make atonement so Wow, I mean and here's here's what

01:48:32

I always say is like I didn't really do much I didn't have any big testimony like you andrew. I did, you know going from a jewish background

01:48:39

I was just a stupid regular christian. Okay But kid daniels now When you're a missionary to africa, you're pretty much all in you're pretty committed

01:48:49

So and he he's never kissed anybody but his wife so it's not a morality thing with him

01:48:55

He just looked at the evidence and he told me he got tired of putting a square peg into a round hole.

01:49:01

So Was I a christian? Who knows? All right, so, uh, there's more comment to you.

01:49:08

Isaiah isaac says, uh, when you were talking about the the Cleanliness of the woman, uh, he says leviticus 15 also includes language of men's uncleanness as well

01:49:19

So just to point that out jews had a real thing with purity and that stuffed in the andrew Well, actually, uh, and and i'll encourage you to go

01:49:26

Uh, there's a couple videos out there of of this view if you search for leviticus andrew rapaport

01:49:33

You will see at least two or three times where i've taught through the entire book of leviticus in one hour I do it in sunday

01:49:38

And okay you oh you win you you spent more time than this

01:49:48

You are great i'll encourage you to go watch it because i'd love to what you'll see is all that cleanliness uncleanliness

01:49:57

It's it's people get lost in the detail and don't step back to see the main picture which is the gospel and that's really what leviticus shows is

01:50:05

We're not clean. We're not pure We need to be redeemed and we can't do it.

01:50:11

We can't we we need atonement from god only god can provide that and leviticus as you yeah, you realize with the jewish way of thinking the the the

01:50:20

It's not like a a western way of thinking where you build a point upon point upon point and your climax is at the end

01:50:26

No in a jewish way of thinking is more eastern. So your your climax is in the middle So it's kind of like, you know

01:50:32

Moses is working up a mountain and now he then he comes down. Well, what's the climax the day of atonement?

01:50:38

Okay, leviticus 17 And so that's it's so the first 16 chapters are working up to the day of atonement

01:50:46

Then you hit that and you're coming down and on the other side. It's all about god being god so By the way, uh, let me just interject real quick that when

01:50:56

I say that Moses wasn't historical abraham's it doesn't get historical to david and certainly we have things like hezekiah's tunnel and stuff

01:51:05

And you know in the prophets like certainly they were uh historical I'm, just going by what the consensus says and as dale allison says he hates consensus

01:51:15

So the consensus could change i'm very aware of that. I'm just telling you what the consensus is and the consensus ever been wrong

01:51:23

Yes, of course Yeah, I mean, um 20 you have to admit that yeah but what what

01:51:30

I One of the questions was why why? are you Telling us this.

01:51:36

Why are you what do you hope? Do you want to convert us the the kids and it's like as atheists?

01:51:41

We're not commanded like you guys to go and preach the gospel. We're not commanded anything So what we're doing is trying to go and educate

01:51:50

And get these kids to see what new testament scholarship says for instance

01:51:56

That paul's letters seven of them romans corinthians galatian These are authentic but things like the pastorals like timothy and tice

01:52:04

These were written 50 years later when they had a church structure. They weren't written by paul So whether you believe it or not what i'm trying to preach is learn

01:52:13

These things that scholarship says learn what the consensus is and you don't have to agree with it

01:52:19

At least be aware of it. So when you go to school, you won't be blindsided I think you would agree with that wouldn't you andrew and well, like I like I said to the students

01:52:27

I mean, you know, the the fact is we have to look at the scholarship and remember that they have a confirmation bias as well

01:52:34

Yes, I mean especially you know just in the scientific realm, right there's There's experts that would say that would hold to radiometric dating but yet Radiometric dating has been proven to be wrong against rocks of known age

01:52:48

But yet it's assumed to be right of rocks of unknown age, you know, so yeah, you got to be careful of that but uh in talking, uh

01:52:57

You know bill mentioned, uh, you know talking about leviticus and cleanliness and he said, you know They had a real thing with with purity, you know, the sad thing is is many christians to professing christians today

01:53:09

Don't have a thing about purity You know, it's it's almost like it's the cool thing to be uh,

01:53:17

To be an impure christian. Yeah and not seek holiness. Are you are you picking on doug wilson again?

01:53:26

No, so drew before you had son and After whatever question you have

01:53:32

I want to give an appeal to do what's interesting I've dated uh, mormon girls and mormons are extremely moral

01:53:40

With this hip cool church, you know, you can the christians just go there and then just Go do the big show and then they just live like non -christians, you know

01:53:51

So it's just and there's no accountability like there used to be You can just go and be a cool christian sing those hill song and bethel songs and you know

01:54:02

It's sad when christians become Yeah, it's it's because no one likes church discipline anymore

01:54:08

But uh, so so bill I had a uh a question for you uh along the lines of your book club

01:54:15

What would you say is? The best christian book you have read and what is the worst atheist book you have read?

01:54:24

Uh stephen meyer for the christian book. I love his return of the god hypothesis. He gives Excellent evidence as i've even read, you know with so much time on my hand.

01:54:34

Uh, Uh the his book on the cell or whatever so, uh, the atheist book lawrence krauss's thing and he's going to be on but you know that universe this quantum fluctuation leading to you know 100 billion galaxies with 100 billion stars.

01:54:53

I mean It just boggles the imagination how that happens and there was another guy and I asked him

01:54:59

How does this and he goes? Um, that's the way, you know Uh things work and I go well, am

01:55:05

I just supposed to have faith in this deal? You know, i'd like evidence Hey, you said that's the way exponentials work and i'm like Okay, is that it?

01:55:16

So, yeah Okay I'll turn it over to you andrew

01:55:22

So yeah, I mean You know bill you you you know where where i'm gonna go Uh, i'm i'm just gonna plead for you to come to repentance

01:55:31

I mean you're man, I I I I you know After we had the debate,

01:55:37

I I got to the airport. I got a call from our friend eric hoven And and even he was like, you know, what is it that holds bill that we you know, we both know but i love eric

01:55:48

And we were at the icr at the planetarium and it's just like he's looking at me like do you see?

01:55:54

and it's like eric there's Other things my man Well, and that's the thing yeah, there are other things that hold you back and i'm not sure what it is but You know, like even with eric, you know, it was the same thing.

01:56:07

He was saying like, you know, you're you're you're such an honest Individual who you you're not the typical atheist who just is trying to disprove christianity rather than try to prove something um, you you're trying to evaluate things but You're you're you're like this puzzle

01:56:26

I I understand why eric is like frustrated with because You're you're so honest like one of the one of the comments that someone someone made

01:56:34

I remember if it was here in with the students, but that was like you're arguing so much for christianity um oh

01:56:41

His device isn't connected Yeah, he probably hit the wrong button I gotta wait for him to come back.

01:56:49

Oh Uh, well, why well he's he's he he admitted he wasn't great with the technology he had his girlfriend setting it up Okay, you're you're back

01:56:59

You're not on camera yet, but that's okay Sorry guys, all right

01:57:11

Go ahead go ahead andrew. You can't be trusted at the keyboard You'll have to tell her that I said that So he

01:57:20

I mean, here's the thing bill look I I love you. I I so want to see you come to repentance

01:57:26

I so want to see you you you love to study these things. You have such a passion You understand christianity very very well um

01:57:36

And yet you're so influenced by the scholars who are looking to disprove biblical christianity

01:57:42

You you know that not everyone who says they're a christian is a christian so many of those that are in the scholarly realm

01:57:47

They're denying The the biblical jesus and so I just plead with you that You and I both know that we're guilty before god

01:57:57

We would deserve eternity in a lake of fire, but god made a way of escape and I plead with you

01:58:03

To come to christ. Oh, thanks so um I want to thank you for coming on bill, you know, it was it was a lot of fun

01:58:12

I was fun doing a debate with you as well. I really appreciated that appreciated dinner with you

01:58:18

And and i'm going to continue praying for you You are welcome to come if you want to come in and ask more questions and you know

01:58:24

It's an open show. So anyone can come in. We'd love to have you back And uh, you know when I get back out to to dallas i'll be

01:58:33

Great enjoyed it All right. So with that, uh next week and i'm just gonna mute bill so we don't get that feedback.

01:58:43

So, uh Next week i'm not sure what we're gonna do. We may have uh and and drew you'll you'll find this one interesting but um

01:58:52

Somebody tagged me on facebook Uh, because there was some guy Tim, I don't remember his last name who who's basically implying and I don't think

01:59:02

I got it right, but I think he was implying that uh calvinism is like dangerous and and false and uh, someone tagged him tagged me and said

01:59:10

Why don't you go on andrew's apologetics live show and debate it with him? And so He said sure

01:59:16

I said, okay I said, you know, you can always come in but I said if you want to spend more time Contact me and we'll give you more time in the show.

01:59:25

And so he did so we're gonna I emailed him I'm, just waiting for him to give me some dates when he which dates in december he could come on And so that may be next week.

01:59:34

If not, we'll we'll do a q a uh, december does get busy, uh family time and things like that So I don't plan on having a show on the 21st or the 28th

01:59:45

I know for sure the 28th. I won't have a show because I will be In new york city with with my son and his girlfriend and so because he's

01:59:55

I gotta get him to a flight That night and so I know for sure that one but my daughter will be in on the 21st

02:00:01

So we won't have a show but the 7th and 14th. We'll have something. Um, if if not

02:00:08

This calvinism will will do an open q a all right And so until next week just remember to strive to make today an eternal day for the glory of god and we will see you