F4F | Rosebrough, Kozar and Westwood Discuss the Utter Lack of Prophetic Quality Control

Fighting for the Faith

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00:01

Yeah, let's do our welcome to another installment of fighting for the faith.

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My name is Chris Roseborough I am your servant in Jesus Christ This is the channel that compares what people are saying in the name of God to the

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Word of God So we're doing another live stream and I gotta admit We waited a little bit to do this one in order to let our anger levels go down, but I'm not convinced mine have but Let me explain.

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In fact, we have guests today So Steven Kosar of the messed -up church and Jesse Westwood good to see you, sir

05:57

Hello. Hello. Good to see both of you. What are you doing? What are you reading over there?

06:03

I'm sorry. Was I supposed to be on a program? I was busy reading a tremendous book

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From Sean Bulls. He's a new prophet. He's amazing Yeah, I know just like just like a total of it and of course

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I have your I have your like your latest video You know the thumbnail up here. Of course, it's fake so so gentlemen,

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I let off by talking about the fact that you know, we We wanted we talked about doing this a couple days ago and Steve you and I Talked about letting ourselves cool down a little bit

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I I gotta admit I the more I think about this the angrier I get not the cooler

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I get I am I am I am at a point where I Legitimately want to hit something not someone something at this point

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I'm thinking about taking up karate or something, you know, you know, maybe joining Cobra Kai, you know, but The point is

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I got a I got a stepper thing right over there on the other side of the room, you know, right? Okay, yeah problem is

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I'm an old man so it takes me about one minute before I'm like But still it does help

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Yeah, and what was what was funny is the video that you put out yesterday

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You you showed some like some of the earliest footage of the fighting for the faith YouTube channel

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And I still had some color in my beard back then. I don't have any But But all that being said the thing the thing

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I'm angry about and it is this is that I am 100 % convinced that the current crop in the leadership of the

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New Apostolic Reformation Charismatic Pentecostal. I don't care what label you're gonna throw on these people that they have no fear of God whatsoever

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None whatsoever and they are in absolute Defiance of clear commands of Scripture when it comes to the prophetic and they don't care

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And they don't care who they hurt. They don't care whose lives they destroy or anything of the sort and and and the thing is is that there's people out there who are basically saying

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I don't like that Roseboro guy cuz he's mean and you know and and stuff like this and I'm sitting there going

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Am I mean because I refuse to play along with the

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Pentecostal game of make -believe Okay, I'm gonna I'm just gonna be blunt.

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I'm taking my rhetoric up to like 11 You know think a spinal tap at this point, but but it's

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I'm serious. It's like it Demanding that I show any kind of respect for these people who clearly are

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Not prophets of God Okay Did somehow act give them some kind of professional courtesy of this as if they could potentially be a ractual prophet of God It's like demanding that I give that I say the

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Zay Zem Pronouns for such -and -such a person who's confused about their gender identity.

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I refuse to live by those lies these people have never been prophets of God and Here's the thing

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Kozar you and I have been warning people about Sean Bowles For more than almost a decade.

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We've been warning people. I think it was you came up with the name Google prophet you know, you know and It was one of the two of us because you and I were on this guy all the way back in like what?

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2017 2018 at the latest and 2016 it was 2016.

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Okay, so we're all we're at nine years Okay, and when he would get up and prophesy, you know, he is there somebody the numbers three seven four six mean anything to anybody

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You know and he's looking at his cell phone and and and we were pointing this stuff out almost a decade ago

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But I'm the one who's mean I you know I'm the one who is just a meanie poopy head and I'm the one this close to blaspheming the

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Holy Spirit there's there's something really really and I mean really wrong here and and I'm I'm At this point just venting but you know

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Kozar take over so that I stop venting so much Save us from this this is why you didn't need me to do this show

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What is that But yeah, I I think There's two things that are kind of happening at the same time one is

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We're looking at all of this Ridiculous evidence. It's just a mountain of evidence that right from the beginning

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Right from the very start a guy looking at his phone and he wasn't even saying things that sounded like a real prophet

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He was saying things that sounded like the psychic guy, you know, does this mean anything to you is there somebody here named

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You know Bob Schwartz Does the name one seven nine fifth

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Avenue? Is that somebody's address? Those are all things that psychics do Yeah, it's so obvious.

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And so it's it's appropriate to be angry It really is and yet the other side of the coin is

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For some people who are so stuck in that world and they've become so familiar with it and they they've they've kind of been

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You know, the the term I keep using is they they have these thought -stopping Devices have been implanted in them year after year after year

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Well, you know he's reading from his notes and yeah, you know You you don't want to be too harsh and you know All these things are causing people to look at the thing that's right in front of him

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It's obviously fraudulent obviously fake and they just don't see it. So There's there's two approaches one approach is to really carefully say, you know

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I I think it's I think it's nice that you want to give him the benefit of the doubt and I appreciate that and I appreciate your sincerity and your willingness to you know want to be nice to people and You know, maybe

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Sean is mistaken. Maybe he's just blah blah blah So that's that is an approach that some people use because those people who are basically in a thought -control organization will kind of real slowly enter in to that kind of discussion because They're not confronted with this hard truth all at once which is what you and I do

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Harris We we and that's why I listen to you because I was looking for answers When I was first trying to figure stuff out about the charismatic world

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I was looking for somebody who would just tell me the truth bluntly I didn't want somebody who would just go on and on and on and on and never really give me a straight answer about anything so that's been my approach to and so There are issues where there's a place for nuance

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There are issues where it's appropriate to try to be nice and to try to give somebody the benefit of the doubt as a really good example

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And I think this really ties into This whole scenario I was texting today and yesterday with Mike winger because he loved my video and he wants to use it for His own like a reaction video

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He wants to add to it and just you know watch wants to show it to everybody and talk about what's happening on the screen

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Yeah, you know when he's a very conservative very mild charismatic And I'm really thankful that he has a voice because he's not looking at Sean Bolton going.

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Well, you know, he's not that bad He's just as angry as we are He's just as frustrated by what's happened at Bethel and he's actually not happy at himself

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That he didn't call out Bethel sooner because he's just juggling all these different things and of course there there is the issue of is it possible that if you are a

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Charismatic that you have a tendency to just not see some things That are kind of right there

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But because of your charismatic ism you have some sort of a bias I come from I've used this phrase that a charismatic

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Confirmation bias and I think there's a there's probably a way to say that that is as nice as you can be you know like Everybody who's in any kind of a denominational category might like like if somebody says something about Luther as a

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Lutheran I Can see where Luther might say? Well, yeah, you're wrong Yeah, I don't think

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Luther didn't and then if you did some research you go. Oh, yeah, Luther was really wrong in that one area I right overreacted because he's my guy.

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I think we all have a tendency to do that a bit right a man the leaders of the

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NAR Bill Johnson Todd white Cheyenne Patricia King Heidi Baker Daniel Kalenda Rodney Howard Brown Let's look at dr.

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Randy Clark. These people all endorsed Sean bolts They all gave him the highest possible praise.

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They all platformed him These were not minor people who you know, we're just following the leader.

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They were the leaders. They are the leader. Yep Yeah, and they were holding him out They were holding his his prophecies out as like the gold standard of accurate prophecies

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Yeah, you know and and and people would say yeah, but what about bolts, you know? Yes. Yes I must say that was one of the things that I would to come across all the time is the you know

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What about bowls? What about bowls because you know how accurate they are But and all you guys are obviously making

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I agree with all your points, but the thing that I I think everyone Like you said Steve and they said

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Chris said hey, we know it's fake Of course, but the bigger thing and I know you guys know this as well Is that it's not that of course it's fake

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The big news of all of this is that especially with the text messages that John Doe leaked

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Was that not only of course, it's fake But we know that they know it was fake and that they knew that that not just Bethel But the

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Heidi Roland Baker that Cheyenne that there's a couple other ones that were mentioned in that list, but they all knew that this was fake and They didn't come out and correct and publicly admonish or say like I think

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I was one of my Yeah, like the thing I was harping on my videos like I'm getting messages From people that are

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Bethel alumni that are saying I made major life decisions like I I made major life choices off of these words and And to not to know that Bethel knew about this and they didn't say hey

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Like we we know this guy apparently was making words and taking words that were pulled off of social media that were data mined

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You know, even the the worry of staining the integrity staining the prophetic movement

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They inadvertently already did that by not doing this because the point I keep making to people is that we not that any of us really trusted any prophets to begin with But if you are a card -carrying charismatic and you believe in prophecy for today

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You now have to side -eye and have a scarlet letter on Every single prophet that comes out of any of these houses now

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Because we now know that they are more worried their words about the prophetic movement

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Than they are about correction and integrity according to Scripture So even if there is another false prophet another person that's you know

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Data mining we we may never know who that person is because we may never know if they will ever actually correct them publicly

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So we can't even trust anyone at this point. It's like yeah Yeah, you're you're left you're left constantly wondering are there others?

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We don't know because they're more concerned about the prophetic movement Yeah, the prophetic movement at this point and and I would note that you know when it comes to like Auto -manufacturers if they put out, you know lemons

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Okay, they are required by law to to have a recall right and I would note something and this is where this is one of my big criticisms of people who are charismatics and Pentecostals and in the

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NAR is that they Disobey Scripture and and and that is the only way

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I can describe it here in first John chapter 4 verse 1 It says beloved and and here's your this by the way do not believe in fact

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Let me put this into the ESV. Hang on a second here the the do not believe Pestuita that's an imperative command in the

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Greek The command is do not believe every spirit

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But here we get to the second imperative but test the spirits to see whether they are from God For many false prophets have gone out into the world

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We have actual command from God the Holy Spirit unless of course the charismatics want to deny that the

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Holy Spirit inspired The Apostle John to write these words. I don't know any charismatic who would say that right that the

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Holy Spirit has commanded First do not believe every spirit and has commanded to test the spirits to see whether they are from God in other words

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Before any of these words go out you have to test to see whether or not that's actually

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God speaking and They are not doing that. There is no quality control

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There is no adherence to this command by the Holy Spirit and as a result of it

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Christ is being blasphemed and his name dragged through the mud Because of all that, you know, the world can see these people for what they are

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You know They're they're very familiar with mentalists and and so -called psychics and people who perform magic tricks

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And that's all these guys are doing is the same stuff And so I think there needs to be a comprehensive complete total recall of all prophets period

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Okay, anybody claiming to be a prophet we need to have a complete and complete and complete and total recall and not a single word

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Is allowed to go out until every single one of them has been Meticulously tested and their words tested before they are ever released and let's see how that goes

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Let's say let me play devil's advocate for but as the former card -carrying charismatic

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I guess all of us were They they actually most most

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Students Bethel students would pull this scripture here and say we do this And so I think this is this may be where your exegete can be helpful for people

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Most charismatic to read this verse and say yeah, we do this a prophet gives us a word We test it see if this is from God See if this is what we if it's affirms my beliefs or affirms where I'm at And if it does we keep it if not, we flush it and so that that is the current policy

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I mean that that's the feedback that poor Jubilee. She's getting that same thing of like you see all the responses

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Well, she should have tested the word She should have seen and the thing I keep saying is in what world isn't some young adult

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Who has someone call out their name or phone number or address and you're in a house where they're told this is the prophet of?

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God are they gonna go? Well, is that a prophet prophetic word from God? It's like no they're gonna go

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That's a prophecy from God. He called out my phone number my name Of course, it's from God and so they are saying they're practicing this but obviously that according the exegete

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They're not doing it, right? No, they're not doing it right at all. Here's the issue There is no biblical text that says that the way you confirm a word as from a prophet as being true is by whether or Not it resonates in your heart and and and you have some kind of a spirit

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Feeling saying oh, yes that that words for me. That's Complete and utter and I'm gonna use a strong phrase bovine scatology.

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No text says it. Okay Instead we are called to test it by comparing it to Scripture and by using particular tests that the

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Scripture give So for instance, okay, y 'all remember right before Kovat went pandemic, you know, we we were hearing about it

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The the rumblings were going and then and the number of cases was going up, but it hadn't been declared a pandemic

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Sean Bowles on on Fox News There's an article still there.

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You can google it. He claimed that that God told him it would net It would not become a pandemic

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Okay, this is what he said. God told him. All right, and I can say

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God did not say that. How do I know because What his words said were not true and So one of the tests of Scripture is it says legitimately and like Deuteronomy 18 if a prophet says something's gonna happen and it doesn't happen

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That's a word that God has not spoken Okay, it's actually kind of that simple

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But here's the thing there have been guys like I don't know Michael Brown running around the landscape saying well giving a false prophet

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He doesn't make you a false prophet because I know that person and I can attest to the fact that they're a good person

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How is that age by the way this goes back to Wayne Grudem too, yeah

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Jared at Scholastic Lutherans actually did some really good work on their

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YouTube channel talking about his book and how bad his theology as Wayne Grudem is held up as you know, a guy that should be really taken seriously, but when you really listen to his version of prophecy it it's

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It's like you're just going in circles. It never really lands anywhere. There's no certainty to it

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Basically, there's always a reason why you can you can say something is both a false prophecy

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And yet that person isn't a false prophet. Yeah there's there's no certainty to anything and I think you know, honestly if I was gonna say what's the

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Perhaps the number one reason why I don't go to a charismatic church anymore and the number one reason why

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I don't practice Charismatic Christianity is because of the tremendous uncertainty that it provides to the

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Christian life Yeah, you never know for sure anything But you're supposed to be getting all these new things, but you never know if that new thing is genuine or fake

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Never you never know. Yeah, and if you do know if you do know it's because You did all these very practical things that are unrelated to that charismatic gift

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In other words, you talk to people with wisdom you you you made practical decisions about what you you know

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Like for instance somebody gives you a word that you're supposed to go and start a restaurant And you go well, you know as a matter of fact

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I've been thinking about that and I've told my friends that and I actually have 20 years experience in the food service business and my parents just died and left me inheritance so that I could buy my own restaurant

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Well, you don't really need a prophetic word to tell you that it's a good idea to start a restaurant

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It's that's been going on for many many years But if you get a word like that and you don't have any of those things in your background

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I think most Genuine charismatics would say well that word doesn't really seem to apply to you because it doesn't really match with what's happening in reality

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You know you you don't have any expertise in that area You're just gonna blow all that money on a restaurant and it's gonna be a failure most likely

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That's what a that's what a decent wise person would give you as advice. So in in either one of those scenarios

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What is the real cash value of the charismatic component to that story?

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It it doesn't really have much value it provides less certainty so right, and and the other thing is is that If you know your

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Bible, you know, these people are not saying words from God I I was just watching a video put out by, you know, the charisma magazine talking about the 2025

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Word of the Lord and they had Catherine Crick on Okay, and and the and the guy asked

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Catherine Crick. So what's the Lord telling you for 2025 and I'm screaming at my

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Computer screen at my computer screen saying he ain't saying nothing to her

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I Want to go back to a point that you made Chris you said how you know, all these prophets should be you know, basically

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Removed all power and recalled we should start over. Yeah, but they don't they don't listen to us

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No, yeah, and they start with the premise that if you're not one of them then butt out.

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Yeah Go ahead Jesse I want to hear what

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Jesse has to say to that well, so but here's the thing and this is something I've I've I have the

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Unique privilege of being part of all these circles still and I love being able to see a lot people thinking but you'd be surprised of how many

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Bethel alumni are Actually starting to get outraged on this like it's this is the this is honestly can say this is the first time probably that I can remember where there has been a fallout of some sort of charismatic leader and There is actually a remnant of people within the alumni group that are calling for some sort of retribution.

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Yeah It's it's it's the past couple times that makes this happened. It's there's always we know don't touch the

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Lord's anointed There's all these like all those typical verses that are being thrown around and you're kind of shaking your fist in the air but this is the first time where I'm seeing a lot of rumbling from Bethel alumni that are starting to Kind of demand something out of this and I think a big part of that is because it's just so personal like especially

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How Sean wasn't officially Bethel staff, but he was very closely tied to Bethel E58 was basically a sister church of Bethel.

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A lot of students would go down there and intern and help But not only that Sean was kind of used as a beacon when they did the prophetic schools

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He would come out a lot he was he was kind of the golden boy and so a lot of a lot of students got words from him and he was kind of the

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The Caliber you you strive for in the in your prophetic ministry you wanted that and so I think there's so many students that had words from him and that made life decisions based on him and Have uprooted their lives and had things happen that now they're like, well, this is personal now

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Like this is actually something where we've made life decisions off this man Yeah You knew there was stuff going on and even after you knew stuff was going on you didn't even come back to tell us and the worst bit of that the worst the worst part is is that the people who work who were

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Alarming and and and like ringing the bell and trying to you know to whistleblow were people who worked for Sean Bowles it you know his personal assistant is the one who contacted the

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Bethel and talked to Chris Vallotton and told Vallotton He was data mining

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Facebook for his prophecies and and you know, he knew about this not last week

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He knew about this years ago and said nothing

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Yeah, actually it was uh, it was 2000 I can tell you exactly because I wanted to confirm with him.

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I was like, hey, when were these messages sent just to be clear Two thousand twenty one was when it was officially the confrontation happened

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That's almost four years ago four years ago four years four years sitting on this

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I Want to I want to bring up something related that I think might it be helpful for people to consider and that is

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When a lot of these guys like Jeremiah Johnson is a really good example But they're all pretty much the same they make a prediction about something that they think is going to happen in the future and A lot of them are just you know

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It's a 50 -50 guess like a an election or the economy is gonna get worse or the economy is gonna get better It's always gonna get worse or better, you know, it's always going up and down but in general they're making predictions about the future and The purpose of that this is this is this is my big point here

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I feel like I've not made this point enough and I don't hear other people making it enough What is the purpose of the the prophecy?

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if it comes through the prophet Built up and he gets to he gets better speaking gigs.

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He sells more books. That's the purpose of the prophecy because if he if he

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Predicts, let's say the next election so -and -so is going to get elected and so -and -so does get elected.

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How does that help the church? It does nothing it does zero for the church.

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It's all for the profit So when you hear guys making predictions about the future or about anything that isn't directly related to the church

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Or even directly related to the moral Condition of the people around him, which is this is what prophets do in the

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Bible Prophets are talking about God to bring people back from their sinfulness to bring them back from their from their

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They're they're fighting against God. They're they're in Rebellion Back to the wall like the cold.

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Yeah. Yeah say you're in you're in danger You're you're fighting against God and I'm warning you there's none of that in these prophecies

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These prophecies are like cheap parlor tricks and sometimes they come true and sometimes they don't and even when they do come true

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What is the ultimate purpose? It makes the profit more money. That's all it's about right? Well, and I would I Would note that the prophets of the

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Old Testament were the prosecuting attorneys of God's covenant and And they they they did not engage in fortune -telling okay, in fact that I would note that the the the quality of prophecies that we're getting nowadays is is just about just about as dumb as it gets it's it's really cheap

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Tawdry fortune -telling and Everything is designed to be as vague as humanly possible.

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By the way real quick. We I I put this on the screen here Paul Blaise Talked about resonate in the heart.

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Is that like the burning in the bosom? The answer is yes Okay, you ask a Mormon. How do you know the

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Mormon the Book of Mormon is true? Well, I prayed about the Book of Mormon and and God gave me a burning in my bosom telling me that it's true

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I Years ago. I had the the Mormon missionaries come to my door and they gave me a

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Book of Mormon told me to read it I said I would they came back a few months later. And the first question they asked me was like, all right

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So did you read the Book of Mormon? Yeah, I did well how did it make you feel and they said I said funny that you would ask because Every time

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I would open the book I would feel like the temperature in the room would like Go down like eight or ten degrees who there would be a chill in the air and I I felt the presence of pure evil and One of the

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Mormon missionaries said to me says you're not reading it, right, you know My My point was your subjective feeling and my subjective feeling cancel each other out.

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We'll have to we'll have to look at the objective facts regarding and and and I think

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Chris Do you want to pull up because I think this is dovetails perfectly into it the the statement that was brought out

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Because I I read through it while we were waiting in the lobby and in the statement so you guys are making perfect points to this because you're talking about what prophecy is used for and what prophecy is and I'm just uh,

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I hate being put on the This is gonna be like like my first reading of this bulls ministry just put this out

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Yeah, they did. And so and I I hate that I keep playing Gotta be a better word for it

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But I keep playing devil's advocate for the charismatic because I think I keep thinking I hear every time you guys make argument I have like my old brain path going.

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Oh, but this and so like when you guys, you know, when you say Chris Hey, well, they all the the prophets of the

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Old Testament were the prosecuting attorneys for God The argument that you hear mostly from the charismatic movement is saying well prophecy isn't meant for that today

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That prophecy is meant to be encouraging and edifying and they'll pull some passes. Why mention that biblical text says that Prophecies are supposed to be encouraging right and this is so this is the framework they use

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Here's the issue the whole framework is based upon assumptions that are not biblical

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That that's the problem is that you know, you guys remember the the movie

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Raiders of the Lost Ark, you know And you know, we had that stupid medallion with a little crystal in the thing and they try and the

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Nazis try to reproduce it but they got they got it wrong and they were and India Indiana Jones's buddy says they're digging in the wrong place.

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Oh, right. Okay, the issue with the charismatics Is is that they are ignoring the actual biblical texts and that tell us what the tests are?

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They've created their own framework with tests that are not even in the biblical text at all

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Right, and the whole thing the assumptions are 100 % wrong They're the whole thing that they've set up is geared to do nothing but Create more and more and more delusional words

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All claiming to be from God You know, you know, whereas you listen

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You don't dare speak a word Claiming it's from God if it's not these people have no fear of God and I would note this also comes down to just a basic lack of understanding of something as simple as the

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Ten Commandments Here's what I mean in Exodus chapter 20, you know the place where we get the

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Ten Commandments, right? Well the Ten Commandments actually there's one that Everybody recognizes is one of the

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Ten Commandments You shall not take the name of Yahweh your God in vain for Yahweh will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain

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Here's the thing if the charismatics would actually just apply themselves to a cursory understanding of this commandment 99 % of the problem would go away okay, because This text is legit.

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It's not talking about some girl in the valley and you know in the 1980s going OMG Okay. Yeah that that's not actually what's in mind here it's it's the the the

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Hebrew words are do not carry the name of Yahweh your God into vanity or emptiness or Worthlessness the

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Hebrew word shah here Legitimately has as one of its meanings false prophecy

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Okay, emptiness of speech false prophecy. Okay, so the idea here is

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I'm gonna know I have yet to run into a single charismatic who says the commandment that says you shall not commit adultery

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Does not apply today. I have never run into a single charismatic that would say that but But I would note this

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I haven't yet to find an actual charismatic who believes these

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Yahoo's are actual prophecy God who understands that this commandment taking

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God's name in vain is Worse than adultery Worse and so much so that God threatens to not hold that person guiltless.

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In other words I ain't gonna forgive you for this Yeah, it's not that it's an unforgivable sin, but the person who keeps going down this road they are risking their eternal salvation

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Well, I Got a text yesterday from my friend

38:12

James Isaacs who was a for many years. He was a musician involved with the vineyard and He's furious and he still considers himself a charismatic although he's like a

38:23

Lutheran charismatic, which I know you're not supposed to do But whatever it's a great guy This is what he texted me

38:31

He said You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain

38:38

Faking prophecies is taking the Lord's name in vain Period. Mmm. There we go so so like when

38:48

I first Just a quick little because puns run in my head when you put a Lutheran and a charismatic together together

38:55

You get a lunatic I think is the way it works I Just I hear charismatic and Lutheran I just hear yeah.

39:08

Yeah. Yeah. Anyways, I When you were doing your teaching on on the on the

39:14

Lord's name in vain, that's when I first thought about well I'm taught to practice prophecy. Like how do I how do

39:19

I rectify practicing prophecy, right? Yeah Yeah, taking rest first Right and my first thought was well shoot if this that was one of the first kind of chips in my theology when

39:28

I was Thinking about come back to being a Christian again, and I'll leave an atheism and I was trying to rectify the idea of prophecy

39:35

This that was one of the things where I'm like, well if I practice prophecy, I'm sinning so that that that thing

39:40

I mentioned I think one of my videos were you know practicing prophecy to become a better prophet It's like practicing adultery to become a better husband.

39:47

It just it just doesn't work It just doesn't work there. You can't you can't square that it just doesn't work, right?

39:53

Yeah, and then I would the other thing I would say is I forgot to mention you're saying with the verse the verse that most

39:59

People use Chris for that and I would love to hear you take on this is might clarify something for people That most people will say that prophecy is just for encouraging the argument will be is that well

40:08

New Covenant prophecy is for encouraging exhortation and The one that you know, they would go to is 1st

40:14

Corinthians 14 3. That's what they would say They'll say well, that's that's how it's supposed to be used new New Testament prophecy

40:20

New Covenant prophecy is for encouragement exhortation and once I'm pretty sure it's 1st

40:25

Corinthians 14 3. I could be wrong On the other hand the one who prophesied speaks to people for their up building

40:35

Okay, so I would note here Okay, so up building process of building building construction building as a result of a construction process

40:45

So this is talking this we're talking about actually edifying an edifice building it up You can't build something up without good materials

40:56

Okay, so you can't so for instance, all right You know the guy who goes out and buys really really cheap drywall right to cut costs and stuff like this and And and gets really really bad glue and things like this.

41:12

Is he is he really? Edifying is he up building again the you know, the the word here in the

41:19

Greek You know, oh my oh my car means house Okay, so, you know so to build up a house

41:27

The question is what materials are we going to use and I would note that to a build

41:34

Requires you to use the actual wholesome true words of God and For up building and encouragement for sure

41:44

There's going to be encouragement because Christ is forgiven us of our sins. We're not we don't have just the law

41:51

We also have the gospel so the the encouragement that we receive from God is the comfort of the forgiveness of our sins and The up building has to be according to the wholesome true words, which

42:04

God requires they be vetted before people believe them

42:10

Okay, you're gonna note in the charismatic movement They put the words out there and and and if it resonates with your soul, then it's true

42:18

Which means there is no vetting at all Right, right. Well, it's it's like it would go back to the beginning like we said earlier the vetting is on it's not on the

42:28

Prophets side who's supposed to which is you think about it? It's it's totally backwards It's like it's like if I was making like I was a barista for 10 years.

42:37

It's like if I was making coffee and I have my coffee filter and I'm pouring my pour over right and my job as a barista is to Have the filter set up.

42:45

So when I make your pour over no coffee grounds get in I want you to have a nice clean cup of coffee There we go

42:51

But what the care what the cares mag movement done is has kind of flipped it on its head They put all the grounds inside of the cup they pour the cup full of water and then they say go ahead and drink it and Try to filter out what you think is good

43:05

Which does it it just doesn't work. No one wants to drink that cup of coffee full of grounds It's just not the way like it's it's not a good cup of coffee.

43:13

So no. Yeah. No, no No, it is not and I gotta admit I can not only taste

43:19

I can feel that cup of coffee in my mouth right now And I'm worse texture and and I and I hate you for it,

43:25

Jesse And we need to talk about we need to talk about Michael and Bob Hartley before we forget

43:34

We got to talk about the statement and then we'll talk we'll talk about the statement Let's quickly.

43:40

We're talking about the standards of prophetic. There's okay So yeah, let's let's so I have not even read this at all.

43:47

This this just came out Bowls is in full panic, you know

43:53

Spin control damage control modes So this is apparently going to solve all the all of his problems statement of commitment to prophetic integrity

44:02

Well, I mean didn't that horse leave the barn a long time ago? Anyway as a ministry

44:09

We would never condone and refute that we would ever find information online to prophesy over people

44:18

What? I can neither confirm nor deny that that The boys that's that's kind of double -minded

44:27

Because this has happened historically with a few individuals There is a suspicion that has been created and we have been accused of this several times specifically from 2016 to 2019

44:38

Let's make this clear sean your former personal assistant

44:45

Who helped you do this? Is the one who whistleblowed? Okay blue blow?

44:50

Yeah, you get it Okay, when we were traveling full -time and modeling and teaching in the body of christ how to pursue the spiritual gifts

44:56

Of words of knowledge which has hasn't had a lot of teaching around it up until this current generation practicing points of prophetic standards in 2019

45:05

There were a lot of questions about words of knowledge and the theology of the prophetic being directed at our ministry

45:11

These were important questions specifically around words of knowledge as well as some asking What are the boundaries of making prophetic predictions over relationships or finances because of these we really wanted to define what we felt what we felt

45:28

Like would be the most healthy version of good boundaries Are you seeing the problem here?

45:37

Are you? We're we're gonna create prophetic standards on what we feel like might be the healthiest thing to do

45:46

Mm -hmm Mm -hmm and all okay and also clearly take a stand for what is a good word of knowledge

45:53

We decided to change some of the ways that I minister publicly As well as how our teams that we have sent out would minister to create safety and health

46:05

And we as a ministry fight for the gifts of the holy spirit and their purpose in the body of christ Especially in the prophetic as part of what we think brings

46:13

What here again here what we think Brings a well -balanced christian life

46:20

Can I can I? Why do you have to fight for the gifts of the holy spirit? Why doesn't the holy spirit just provide the gifts as he wills?

46:29

right That's that's why that's why when people say um Are you a cessationist?

46:36

I I talked to david lovey about this for hours First time he came up here to do a show with us

46:41

We we sat and talked all afternoon before we even turned the cameras on and I said, you know We both believe really strongly in the sovereignty of god

46:49

And if we hold that belief in the sovereignty of god, is it possible that in some unique sort of situation at some point?

46:57

God might decide that he wants to give somebody the supernatural ability to speak in another language for the purpose

47:03

Of relaying the gospel in a unique situation and we both agreed. Yeah, that's not outside of the realm of possibility, right?

47:09

But that's what the holy spirit can do because he's god He's not going to wait for us to say, uh, hey, holy spirit.

47:16

This is your lucky day. I decided to give you permission So you just go ahead Yeah, this this goes back to my my historic depiction of the the holy spirit of the pentecostals and charismatics

47:30

Is the is I mean good Remember those wimpy wimpy wimpy. Hi This is the holy spirit and I was kind of hoping that you could like whirl up that really fancy internet thingy of yours

47:42

And like tell some people that I have some special some things that I really want to do for them and things

47:50

What is this holy spirit, right? Okay, this is that's nonsense.

47:55

I I God the holy spirit showed up on the day of pentecost and nobody raised their hand and say I give permission

48:02

And I opt in to the gift of tongues, you know, they didn't do anything like that Okay, they spoke as the spirit

48:12

They spoke as the spirit gave them utterance right, and I think that's super important because otherwise it sounds like there are these heroic people who are

48:21

Finally letting the holy spirit do what he wants to do. Wow, that's so big of you. It's just so dumb.

48:27

It's just dumb I don't want to sound insulting It's just really really dumb to think that we have such power in our own free wills that we can cause or not cause

48:37

The god of the universe to do what he wants to do Yep. Yeah Something i've i've been finding when it comes to talking to people about the gifts and cessationism

48:47

That i've found really helpful is i've i've no longer I've no longer called myself a cessationist because I find the moment

48:53

I say that it almost cuts the conversation off at the knees And it's like you start talking about all the most unproductive things right away

49:01

So i've i've started telling people is no i'm actually I am a continuationist However, I believe that any gifts that are in action have to be completely according to the biblical standard

49:11

So anything outside they're not going to happen very often Right. It's not a not a gift and so that it really it's it's a great tool

49:19

If you guys want to use it for conversation because the moment you say that they're like, well, what do you mean? And then you say well by the standard

49:24

I I said I would actually be considered myself a false prophet because i've given false prophetic words before So i'm not to be trusted in the realm of prophecy and like wait a minute

49:33

You're a false prophet in the world by biblical standards I would be considered a false prophet because I have given prophetic words and they haven't come to pass

49:39

So i'm just telling you now if you're going to tell me prophetics still acting today Don't trust me with prophetic word because i've given false prophecies.

49:46

How about yourself? And then immediately it's like the face just goes like wait what? Yeah, it's amazing what it does because it shifts the whole conversation from well, they still acted for today

49:55

It's like well, sure they are But are they held to the standard and this is the problem we have right here is the standard that's being held

50:03

Right and this standard is completely Admired in subjectivity

50:11

Especially in the prophetic of as part of what we think brings a well -balanced christian life

50:18

I'm, sorry, but you and I do not have the authority to determine what brings a well -balanced christian life

50:24

The only one who has that authority is god and he's going and he's revealed that in his word

50:29

My opinions have no bearing on this whatsoever You know, yeah, so we continue that because oh, this is so annoying

50:39

We made it gets better. It does Okay, we made several changes in our ministry team back in 2019

50:50

Yeah, like he disappeared from like expressions 58 altogether They don't even they have like none of his stuff there at all anymore

50:57

Anyway, anyway and my own personal public platform to help flow In the word of knowledge

51:05

Flow, I that's what that's what sewage does anyway, um, let's see

51:12

Flow in the in the word of knowledge gifting without having as much room for criticism and doubt

51:17

We want to share some of these commitments and protocols our ministry adopted to help others who want to help share the genuine prophetic gifts

51:26

So here are some of the standards we set in our ministry when it comes to practicing prophetic gifts

51:31

So you can see what is important to our ministry and hopefully you can help inform your own approach if you are new to this or Or help sharpen you if you are unfamiliar with practicing the prophetic and there's your problem right there

51:46

Okay, we are constantly adjusting our ministry protocols to keep the people

51:52

We are called to minister to safe as well as the people who practice it most of these protocols were already being practiced

51:59

But we reinforce them and have held the line for years. Oh, wow. Well, he's such a brave man.

52:05

Okay Okay, so words of knowledge We will not share any information that is obvious as a word of knowledge

52:11

Meaning it can be found online like birthdays anniversaries people's names or addresses in our prophetic words

52:18

Is he going to repent for doing that in the past? Okay Ask God for what first corinthians 14 says is the secrets of the heart in this way people can have confidence

52:30

That if a word comes it came from God We will not share words of knowledge about someone's pain relational issues or anything negative publicly

52:38

It is easy to go to a place of inner healing or what is wrong But if you're going to share these things in front of their family or friends

52:45

It can put them in a bad light or cause misunderstanding Uh -huh, and we will not share words of knowledge about resources or finances publicly because it puts pressure

52:55

On exposing someone's condition to people who aren't involved people who have money can be pursued wrongly

53:02

People who don't have it can become shamed. My question is this Did hr sign off on this, you know, just Just Sorry This is just so Convoluted and it doesn't address what he's done

53:23

He's not admitting it. He's not confessing it. He's not

53:28

Apologizing for it. This man has destroyed people's lives again, jubilee dawn married an abuser

53:38

Because sean bowles said god was giving her to him Well, he said it was giving him jubilee.

53:45

It was the year of jubilee Yeah Okay we continue

53:51

Say we will not share prophetic word Publicly that are about judgment or correction. Well, isaiah did jeremiah did ezekiel did why won't you this is the part right here?

54:02

Right here. Okay, so he Yep We will not prophesy about romantic relationships with people who are not married but you've done that I've seen the video

54:13

Okay, we will not prophesy about business deals or contracts with specific groups or people or that finances or resources

54:21

Are supposed to be given away that are not yours We will not prophesy about business partnerships with specific people together

54:28

Or that someone will be working with someone else by name because it can cause confusion and manipulation in other words, he's guilty of I would say this almost sounds like a confession

54:39

Almost sounds like a confession But it's not He's clearly

54:45

Admitting without admitting what he's done and and note that he's caused confusion and manipulation

54:51

We will not prophesy over people struggling with infertility by promising them. They will get pregnant yet.

54:57

He's done that We will not prophesy conditional words unless you do this will this will not happen no words with uh ultimatums discernment

55:07

We will not share negative words Go ahead real quick there. Hold on. Sorry the

55:12

I've This is one of the things I first one of the first things that I when I was like Coming out of the charismatic movement and my understanding of prophecy

55:20

The classic rule that we're given as students at Bethel during our first year when it comes to prophecy is the three things

55:25

We're not allowed to prophesy on do you know what they are? There's no dates no mates and no babies and i'm always fascinated how

55:34

Whenever we see statements like this are the three things we're not going to prophesy on he's he's going back to the rules that you

55:39

Know chris taught us no dates no mates to babies But if you look historically in the bible, what were the things that prophecies always brought out?

55:47

They brought out dates. They brought out mates and they prophesied babies So it's like in one particular baby that was born to a virgin, you know

55:57

Yeah, it's almost like saying hey, we're not going to do biblical prophecy. We're not going to do dates mates or babies

56:03

It's like oh, you mean the prophecy they did in the bible You're not gonna do but anyways

56:10

This this is so this is this is awful. We will not share negative things We have discerned publicly about individuals or other believers

56:17

We will not share public discernment over individuals about the demonic We will not post internet videos or social media videos of our own prophecy over others

56:25

If they want to post it let them but it's their story not ours unless they specifically give us permission

56:31

I have no idea what this is talking about if you prophesy something publicly that doesn't happen take public responsibility

56:37

Somewhere that you can point people to who have questions Did he do that regarding his prophecy that covid would not become a pandemic?

56:46

Okay, it's on the fox news website still you can google it Okay, if you have a word that has any direction in it about moving career change, etc

56:55

Make sure to express that they need to get confirmation And that the word is not meant to be their direction and here we go again.

57:04

Okay, they need to get confirmation What does that even mean if god is speaking okay his words are self -confirming

57:16

God never says something's going to happen and it doesn't happen You what yes, what is the

57:22

What does this need to get confirmation nonsense? Well, and if you and you read the rest of it, it's what

57:28

I was saying earlier It's supposed to support what god is already telling them So if if they're already and and I don't think what they mean is that god is literally already telling them

57:39

Specific things it's just that everybody has directions in life. You know, you're good at something you you know

57:44

Doors open for you You have connections to people and it brings you down a certain path

57:50

And we all look at that and say oh, that's what god was leading me to do It doesn't mean that god was specifically speaking and giving you those specific directions.

57:58

That's just the way that you were led and so the prophetic Can only function in that environment if it it kind of goes along with all of those things

58:08

But it doesn't really need to be there in that situation. It's not really doing anything Yeah, it's just it's like it's like the it's like this fluffy frosting on top of an already fine cake

58:19

You know, it's like we just just eat the cake as as it's already been presented to you You don't need this extra thing on top that isn't really adding anything

58:28

I would know it is adding something. It's adding poison words that are not god's words

58:35

That's what i'm saying theoretically If what they're saying is true the prophetic word in its best possible presentation

58:43

Is going to confirm something that's already confirmed in a number of other ways Yeah, so it's not really necessary Yeah, but it does open the door for somebody to give a false word that's going to add confusion to what otherwise wouldn't be that confusing

58:56

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah And then I I think this is this is horrible We have never had to correct our team and in a big way for violating any of these standards

59:07

Uh -huh And then he says although I sean bulls do not do a lot of traveling ministry and our focus is turned to media entertainment

59:14

I still want to help support the prophetic ministry Why is this guy not owning his sin?

59:21

Why? You know another really good question would be

59:27

Doesn't it doesn't it seem? Extremely odd that he stopped doing prophetic ministry exactly at the time when he was being criticized for all of his data mining

59:38

Yeah, now he's still not doing prophetic ministry, but he also isn't Saying yeah, you guys caught me.

59:44

You're right. I did those things and that's why I stopped because I I knew

59:49

I was caught Yeah Yeah This is like like al capone, you know the famous alcohol runner during the prohibition

01:00:00

Coming, you know, basically saying and you know, we we we stand by alcoholics anonymous Yeah, well,

01:00:09

I mean it's and it's also that was one of those things where it uh, john doe mentioned, um that he uh,

01:00:17

When it all happened, they had it where chris Um invited sean to come up And they're gonna have 200 random people in a room

01:00:26

That that uh sean didn't know And then to do prophecy there and he wouldn't do it

01:00:32

That's of course wouldn't do it. Of course he can't He can't do it without an internet connection and names and social media

01:00:41

Yep Yep You know, I did a video not too long ago about chris valentine giving a very specific prophetic word at hillsong, new york

01:00:50

He said in 27 months From this day that yeah Well that happened like I don't know six months ago.

01:00:58

I made a video about it. Nobody cares I think chris valentine cares that he gave a false prophetic utterance

01:01:04

He doesn't he doesn't care It's this is all about protecting your audience keeping the your audience as large as possible

01:01:09

So you can get the highest speaking fees and then you can sell the most books Yep. Now I want

01:01:15

I want to point something out here. Okay, because this isn't just about sean bowles at this point.

01:01:20

Okay um chris reed uh the Has been outed by the remnant radio guys and i'll explain we'll actually play a little bit of video here but I I Steve I want to thank you for putting this video out and I just want to point out how poorly this video has aged

01:01:40

Okay, because here is chris reed doing the exact same thing

01:01:46

That we that that we know that sean bowles was engaging in okay, but note who he's with that's mike bickle

01:01:54

Okay, and I still I still I still hang this out there How long before todd bentley restores mike bickle and michael brown to ministry that's what

01:02:04

I want to know, okay But let's see how well this is aged. Hang on a second This is from your video from that you dropped yesterday psychic cold reading stunts as you will see in just a minute

01:02:15

Basically, he calls out somebody's name or somebody's address or somebody's birthday or maybe you're editing

01:02:23

Kills me. Okay Do you do you remember that that that hilarious movie the gods must be crazy

01:02:30

Okay, you edit like that people that put oh man It's a hilarious movie about a a coke bottle that falls from the sky and and hits the savannah in in africa

01:02:42

It's if you ever you know, the gods must be crazy is a hilarious movie But you have the same editing style as the people who put that movie together.

01:02:49

I'm just saying okay Anyway, let's let's go maybe a number of some sort. I saw three four numbers as well 3605 um 3605 something like that uh

01:03:02

Wait 3605 your address and as soon as he gets somebody to respond to that piece of information

01:03:08

Which he got off the internet. He does a generic prophecy quote unquote basically god sees you

01:03:13

He knows what you're going through everything's going to be okay, or sometimes especially if there's old people in the audience

01:03:19

He declares them to be healed some kind of injury from years ago or some kind of injury from years ago

01:03:24

And some kind of agitation the lord's just healing your hip right now lift up your hands Would you you know what i'm talking about?

01:03:29

God's gonna touch you and it's gonna flow right into your hips right now And it's gonna balance your walk in the natural and bring balance to your walk in the spirit says the lord

01:03:38

He looks like he was passing a kidney stone while doing that Anyway, the louder the louder a person gets the truer it is whatever they're saying

01:03:46

Uh Also it it also goes right back to the I hate to do this to you chris But it goes back to the coffee analogy because they just ripped the filter out because what they did was they said

01:03:57

Hey, do you have this number? Is this number mean something to you? So the moment you do that the person that I mean, why would the person discern anything right?

01:04:07

It's right. There's no need to discern because they just confirmed. Hey Is this number mean anything to you?

01:04:13

Oh, it does at your street address You're not going to discern go well, maybe someone else has that street address. No, you're there.

01:04:19

Of course. It's for you And so you're gonna take whatever prophetic word they give as as gospel and take it. This is just bad mentalism.

01:04:27

This isn't prophecy Okay, this is just horrible mentalism. Okay now real quick the uh, the remnant radio guys

01:04:36

Just released a video. This is 11 days ago Talking about chris reid, okay

01:04:43

And I want you to hear what they said because this This is this is sickening

01:04:49

And i'm glad they're finally saying something But they have not said anything publicly about this until 11 days ago.

01:04:59

So let's listen in Okay, it was on the receiving end of it yeah, yeah, and for those, you know who are watching the stuff that's happening against jonathan and suzy is um tragic by the way

01:05:12

Sean balls is embroiled in the whole day star thing Okay. Yeah, we haven't touched that yet.

01:05:19

Johnny lamb. We she he was one of her prophetic advisors Okay Good grief.

01:05:28

I mean, oh You just I do if I sound angry i'm angry, okay, but Strong sounds about to come out.

01:05:37

Yeah I'm gonna give roseboro a beer calm him down I'm afraid i'm going to become one of the furnace fighters of indiana, you know

01:05:52

But that's a whole other story, you know, but anyway, let's keep going very much Encourage you go check out roast report get all the details on that We're responding to these individuals not day star as a whole because these individuals we've had on the show.

01:06:01

So that's that Allegations on chris reid. Okay, so you guys know the sexual misconduct story?

01:06:09

katherine 2021 was a student at sexual misconduct he used his prophetic gift to You know to you know, smoochie smoochie and touchy touchy, you know one of his students

01:06:22

I mean he pulled a michael brown And sorry, you know, we'll have to call it that from now on good grief

01:06:30

The school of ministry and we have chris reid who is inappropriate meeting with her kissing sending sexually explicit text message allegations of touching

01:06:39

Sexual related you can again read all these This disqualifies somebody from ministry forever

01:06:45

Okay, i'm, sorry, but this How is this guy still doing stuff but we continue specifically on voice report

01:06:53

I don't want to say anything that would get us d platform. So Katherine reported this misconduct to morningstar leaders in 2022

01:06:58

But withheld some details due to embarrassment to kind of an all -male elder board the morningstar ministries, you know founder joiner and the board learned of this conduct in 2022, but Opted for a restoration process instead of publicly addressing the issue and hiring a third -party investigator

01:07:14

Reed was allowed to serve as an acting president during his restoration process Apparently rick warren believes that many people if you're the acting president, what are you being restored to?

01:07:27

The word doesn't have a meaning at this point i'm gonna blow up I think i'm gonna spontaneously make it make sense

01:07:35

It's just This is insanity Anyway, we continue in the restoration process get a lot of healing by actively participating in ministry in that restoration

01:07:44

Oh, so sorry rick joiner. Thank you for that that slip there. I don't call it Different different slip.

01:07:51

Yes different rick. So rick joiner who's been responsible for you know, restoring many of the scandalous

01:07:59

You know like todd bentley Right, you know And he's back Todd bentley was restored by rick joiner and bill johnson and bill johnson.

01:08:10

I've used this clip before he does this really nasty scolding Of uh, he had a woman email him and say why are you platforming?

01:08:21

todd bentley Yeah, and he gives this really long Yeah, well, you know, he's one of my friends and i'm gonna stand up and I don't care what anybody

01:08:29

Remember These people are showing who they are they're showing where their

01:08:36

Sympathies lie and they they they always veer toward supporting the abuser while they ignore the sheep

01:08:42

They don't care about the sheep. It's not a thing. They care nothing about the sheep nothing

01:08:48

We continue the immoralities that have taken place in the charismatic church and has not done a bang -up job before it

01:08:53

In fact, I think has caused plenty more problems Anyway Chris has recently decided to get back into ministry as in weeks after these allegations decided to start a church revolution church

01:09:04

What a name Let's just call it apostasy a church. Okay that that let's just let's just call it what it is.

01:09:12

Okay, I mean That's pretty much what the word apostasy. It means we're we're calling apostasy a church.

01:09:19

Okay, I think it was like I was just thinking the tagline could be something like Or like I just keep thinking of uh, the anchorman cologne or he's like works six

01:09:31

It works 100 % of the time 60 % of the time. It's like our perfect words are accurate 100 % of the time 60 % of the time

01:09:42

Okay, so so i'm gonna show you what chris reed is up to here in a minute, but okay

01:09:48

Okay, so this is let's keep working through this. Okay. Hank. He wrote this some it may say apply the rush take your time

01:09:54

This will be the same old story reed wrote but no time is running short We cannot silence true apostolic and prophetic voices right now

01:10:02

We need a jesus revolution. So he's starting this church true apostolic and prophetic voices

01:10:10

What Who who is writing his stuff is it goibles, you know, you know the the

01:10:19

Propaganda minister from the nazis what on earth? Okay We continue revolution church

01:10:27

In north carolina, and he's hopping right back into ministry after admitting to these activities with the exception of Touching this woman.

01:10:35

He said yes, I kissed her. I think he admitted to some of the text kissing involves touching just saying

01:10:41

It's just again. You can verify all this from this report But but there are other allegations that we are aware of that have come to us

01:10:47

This will be news for the public. This will be news for everyone. Nobody knows this so You might have heard us online talk about knowing that someone has cheated prophetically

01:10:55

Allegations were brought to us from multiple sources. We actually did not investigate. We didn't like go after them to some extent

01:11:01

We we started poking. No, I I investigated I actually did it was after enough allegations came forward, right?

01:11:06

So we had two or three at least that come to us and investigate is a very loose term That I don't think we should be throwing around when we say that miller investigated

01:11:12

He he called up people he dug around a little bit like we didn't hire anyone. We don't have the tools or resources With the imagination, but we didn't start

01:11:21

These things were true. So we had logged a bunch of information suggesting that chris reed had mined information online

01:11:28

In his prophetic words. Yeah, so you can tell often not by what people are getting right, but what people are getting wrong Uh, he gave a guy prophetic word and kept saying over her.

01:11:35

Oh, what about this other woman? You know, that's a you know that lives with you. I think her name is this her name is this and he's like No, that's not her name

01:11:40

Well come to find out if you google this guy's name and you find him on white pages There's another woman listed at that address Well, then he keeps giving parts of the prophetic word about art

01:11:46

Well this woman if you google her on facebook and you know does all this artwork so It was evident that chris was pulling information from online into his prophetic words

01:11:55

And it seems as though there were multiple allegations of this come to find out we confronted chris

01:12:00

We sat down with him and some mediators There's other people outside of just michael michael and myself who were on that call and we sat down and we asked chris

01:12:07

Not telling him what we knew but asking have you ever cheated and he proceeded to give us

01:12:13

Basically every I think every account I don't think basically I think every account we had Do you know of an account? He didn't bring forward all the information, but he did acknowledge that he had done some data mining

01:12:22

And he was deeply grieved about it deeply embarrassed about it Um, and so we went through a process of okay.

01:12:27

What does this look like to rake it right? The the problem in this is that we didn't have any kind of ecclesiastical authority over him

01:12:32

We were informed that rick joiner knew about this data mining that that chris had already confessed this joiner knew

01:12:40

Hmm even before taking the job it goes back to it. Yeah And so we said yeah, but what have you done to make it right with the victims?

01:12:48

And so that was the plan he was going to do what he could to make it right with those he had victimized The problem was is one of the pastors who was overseeing that church that invited chris out where he had data mined

01:12:59

That pastor was no longer the pastor of the church and at the time when chris reached out to him The pastor his son had just died.

01:13:05

He was in no place to deal with Reconciliation and allowing bringing some sort of restoration allowing chris to repent in front of that church and actually creating that connection to show that This man really does want to own his sin

01:13:16

But there was a couple of other things that happened in this exchange one I got some really when when chris he found out that I was asking questions about him that I was poking around Watch this one of the people that I had interviewed and asked questions about Called up chris and told him what

01:13:29

I was doing chris then sent me some really strange text Hey, I know that you're investigating me. Hey, I know that And and there was like a offer to give me money via paypal which is exactly what he did what's your cash roll

01:13:41

That's called a bribe There's a word for that what? What?

01:13:48

Yeah, chris reed tried to bribe the remnant radio guys

01:13:55

Man Man, I wonder if he's ever done that before Well miller is getting like hats off to miller,

01:14:03

I mean for what it's worth he's really been going on his own Path here lately with church hurt and people being abused by churches if you don't follow miller on other social medias

01:14:13

Um, which is this guy right here basement boy. I love the guy on that sign. It's awesome He's leaning into it. Um, but he he has been really going on a bit of a crusade on on um

01:14:24

People who have been hurt by the church and by abusive leadership Um, and so he's he's really taking this personally and he's really going hard on this so hats off to him for really taking it seriously at least and Um, you know trying to hold people to to the fire

01:14:41

Now I want to point something out here. I said I would show you what chris reads up to okay This is from three days ago.

01:14:47

He did a live stream and it's prophecy of a wmd in the usa He is prophesying that there are three

01:14:57

Wmd devices that are in the united states and he saw them in a dream That's a bad idea

01:15:05

It's just like this is not a good idea what What I mean,

01:15:11

I know what did he say? Okay And here's the thing this is 25 000 people who've watched this video 25 000 how many of them are sitting there going?

01:15:29

We're about to be attacked and there's going to be an wmd that's going to go off in the united states He's been watching too many of the ufo channels about the stupid drones in new jersey

01:15:40

And he's this is what a true Apostolic prophetic voice is all about this is talking about stuff like this

01:15:50

I made a video that I made in august of 2023 It's got fake fake fake on the cover.

01:15:56

A lot of people have seen it. Yep the the very last part of that video is from 2022 and it's uh, chris reed giving a

01:16:06

I think it's like I don't know 10 or 12 points from a so -called prophetic dream he had

01:16:12

And not one of them came true And they were specific enough that you can you can Say, you know, did they come true or did they not and they did not yep, so there there's a point where It's really hard for me to do this, but I have to just say, you know there's plenty of evidence that these people should be marked and avoided and if people continue listening to them because I don't know they want to It's not my fault anymore

01:16:37

They just choose to follow false teachers because they like what they say. They like the false teachers They like getting their ears tickled and I don't

01:16:45

I I know I I probably should be saying something like oh I just pray that everybody's eyes will be opened and I just pray that you know, somehow they'll learn the truth

01:16:54

I'm like no they they see that this guy is a fake over and over and over and over and they go

01:17:00

Yeah, but we like him I don't know. I don't understand that but that's what's happening. That's why he's still in the audience

01:17:07

It goes back to your point steve though. It's like To what benefit Like to what end

01:17:15

Do do we celebrate? and and and who who is exhorted or built up or Any any biblical prophetic standard what happens if if he's right?

01:17:26

Like right to what to what end does that do anything for the body of christ? Like I just can't think of anything where it's like, hey church attendance went up.

01:17:35

We found out there's more there's more wmds It's like what that makes no sense He's throwing a prophetic dart at the dart board and he's going if I if I hit the target with this one boy

01:17:45

It's the jackpot Yeah Yeah, nobody nobody would ever go back and start a church again in a matter of weeks

01:17:54

Like he did And be a true christian man of god. It's just it's so dumb well, and the other thing too is like and this is something i've been thinking more and more about um,

01:18:03

Especially thinking like, you know the time we live in and the day and age we're in you would think that you know, like Maybe 40 50 60 years ago that false prophets would have a heyday during that time

01:18:18

Because and you could argue they did like during certain revivalists and certain people that are going around and william brandon the skin

01:18:25

Yeah, like, you know, like peter popoff He was doing all the in -ear stuff like a lot of stuff was a lot harder to detect

01:18:30

It was a lot, you know people wouldn't think that'd be that hard or that it would It was a lot harder to pull off stunts like this

01:18:36

And with the day and age we're in now with just you know, you know independent, you know Journalism with any person who has a phone they can just record something

01:18:45

It makes it such these guys have a lot harder time because there's just so much evidence But it it doesn't seem like unfortunately.

01:18:53

It's done a dent on these things Because they just keep going it's and it really goes back to the problem of the church today

01:18:59

Where it just comes to biblical literacy? And if we had more biblical literacy in our churches and we had more

01:19:06

Just apt teachers that were actually teaching biblical principles and biblical prophecy

01:19:11

What what is the biblical standard and what is it to know? It's it's a product I said before in some other ways but it really is a product of our culture and the in our leaders that we have in our churches today that are letting the

01:19:23

Stuff fly because it's so evident in the face of all of us And yet people aren't holding any of their leaders to any kind of accountability

01:19:31

Or or they just get to like do this like they get to pull chris reid and just launch another church It's like what are you talking about?

01:19:37

This this, you know, it just it shouldn't happen. But unfortunately, it's still It's still very easy to do and it blows my mind

01:19:46

Well, there's a there's a whole series of things that are all stacked on top of each other that cause that to happen One of them is the hatred for denominations

01:19:53

And the hatred for historical church history And the hatred for any kind of systematic theology

01:20:01

If you hate all those things, oh and you can constantly tell people that it's all about the heart. It's not about the head

01:20:07

So it's an anti -intellectualism That causes people to be afraid of thinking for themselves You take all these things and you stack them up on top of one another

01:20:15

And then we have all been raised in a culture that says the expert Who has an audience because he's on television?

01:20:23

Is an expert and should be trusted because of the fact that he's an expert and he's on television Well now you can make yourself an expert by having a youtube channel and you can now

01:20:33

Make yourself an expert, you know good production skills Yeah, so I have a channel

01:20:38

It This is one of the things that bothers me about being a youtuber

01:20:51

I'm, really thankful that people like my channel and they trust me enough and they're asking me questions but at the same time i'm like I don't want you to trust me that much.

01:21:00

I want you to find these things out for yourself I don't want you to just ask me and then think that you've got your answer

01:21:05

Yeah, i've always told people do not give me the benefit of the doubt Do not trust me fact check me

01:21:15

Relentlessly open up your bible and test to see whether what i'm saying is true because here's the thing

01:21:21

Is that the church was doing just fine before I showed up and the church is going to do just fine after I leave

01:21:27

God doesn't need me to do nothing. Okay, and the fact that god has permitted me to preach his word

01:21:34

Is is is basically a testimony to his mercy and his grace but the thing is is that Nobody is a disciple of chris roseborough.

01:21:44

Nobody. I don't have any disciples I'm a disciple of jesus christ. We're all disciples of jesus christ together, right and I would note that the apostle peter warned us

01:21:55

That false prophets will arise in the church And in the charismatic and pentecostal movements, they act like that.

01:22:04

There are no false prophets Okay and when when they are Legitimately right in front of them, you know sean bulls and you know

01:22:15

Alexander pagani and isaiah salivar and vlad savchuk These are exactly the men that that christ describes in in matthew 7

01:22:25

When he says not everyone who says to me lord lord will enter the kingdom of heaven But you know and they will there will be many who will say on that day lord

01:22:33

Did we not cast out demons in your name? Did we not prophesy in your name and god christ will say to them depart from me?

01:22:39

I never knew you you workers of lawlessness And I I can't I can't keep coming back here.

01:22:45

Yeah, if I sound like i'm really irritated I am I just you know I I have not calmed down.

01:22:51

I am angry at this point Michael brown could never call a single person a false prophet and he had he had the gumption to slander myself and justin peters and stephen kozar and brandon kimber and all the

01:23:08

Godly men who've been on the american gospel docuseries and say that they're all hyper critics but he he wouldn't he couldn't name a single false prophet because he knew every one of them and he said that his personal relationship and You know, and well that hasn't aged very well

01:23:26

But the apostle peter says this false prophets also arose among the people

01:23:32

Just as there will be false teachers among you who will secretly bring in destructive heresies even denying the master who bought them bringing upon themselves swift destruction and many will follow their sensuality and because of them the way of truth will be

01:23:47

Blasphemed if that isn't happening right now, then I don't know what is Do you think christianity is doing better now that the world is mocking us?

01:23:56

Because the top leaders of the charismatic movement knew about sean bulls. They knew about Uh, chris reid data mining and just basically engaging in parlor tricks and and testifying falsely destroying people's lives no, the way of truth is being blasphemed because of men like this and chris valentine and Rick joiner and patricia king and daniel calenda and all these people knew it

01:24:22

And they did nothing to warn the body of christ In their greed, they will exploit you with false words.

01:24:29

Their condemnation from long ago is not idle Their destruction is not asleep. Like I said, we need a complete comprehensive recall

01:24:38

Okay, in other words anybody claiming to be a prophet you don't give them Views you don't give them likes you don't give them money

01:24:46

You don't you mark and avoid them the way scripture says to do so to take away their market from them.

01:24:53

They are Destroying christianity and they are destroying people's lives and they are going to hell

01:25:01

Every single one of them you think I think sean bulls is brother in christ not on your life The man is a reprobate headed to hell

01:25:10

You know that that's one of the points that I think is used against us is

01:25:15

You just jump to that conclusion Uh, in other words somebody like a dr

01:25:21

Michael brown has used this tactic continuously the whole time we've ever had any kind of dealings with him

01:25:26

He just jumps to oh, so you think he's going to hell and now he puts you on the defensive And he makes you look like the bad guy when in fact it is a good guy who says

01:25:37

Whether or not he's going to hell Is a secondary issue. The primary issue is he's harming the sheep.

01:25:44

He's blaspheming god. He's Misrepresenting god. He's misrepresenting the bible. He's misrepresenting christianity

01:25:50

And he's doing great damage to our faith Oh and on top of that we think he's going to hell because that's what people who are going to hell do

01:25:58

People who are going to tell you exactly why I think he's going to hell When you look at repentance in the scriptures like so for instance both king saul and king david screwed up royally okay, both of them like Completely fell on their faces and when saul was confronted with his sin

01:26:19

He blamed everybody else and he engaged in gaslighting Okay, he never took responsibility for his sin ever

01:26:28

When nathan the prophet confronted david regarding his sin david's only words were

01:26:34

I have sinned against the lord Yeah, yeah, he owned it. Yep and here's sean bowles in this ridiculous and I mean ridiculous insult of a of a prophetic standard statement

01:26:50

He can't even admit to the sin that he's done and the destruction that he has wreaked in people's lives

01:26:57

This is this is not the behavior of a penitent sinner This is the behavior of somebody who is steeped in sin and engaging the same kind of false repentance

01:27:07

That we saw from king saul Yep well, and also like the thing it goes back to the the same idea like when

01:27:16

I tell people that my approach of saying Well, i'm a continuationist and i'll i'll set the standard like well, here's a standard.

01:27:23

Are you actually following these standards? You can ask the same question to people and just encourage you guys like and i'm finding this in all my conversations when i'm trying to I just made me minister, but i'm trying to Bridge in conversations with people that maybe believe in the gift still or believe in prophecy for today

01:27:39

A simple question to ask someone when they say they believe in prophecy for today Rather than have them define what is prophecy ask them.

01:27:47

How do you label a false prophet? And it's amazing That when you ask that question how how short of an answer they have because they don't know how to It's it's like well

01:28:00

And so you have to and i'll ask like well, hey listen Of of all the hundreds and thousands of people that have been taught how to prophesy.

01:28:07

Do you think maybe one of them? prophesied falsely Do you think maybe two of them prophesied falsely and you kind of like work up and it's like and if and if so How do you how do you define it if you can't do you think that's a problem?

01:28:23

And it's amazing how it gets that gets the gears turn. I'm like, well, maybe there are some false prophets Like I would argue just on betty nods.

01:28:30

Someone has to be a false prophet Right, you know just on that alone, but we have to we have to define it

01:28:35

We have if you're like you can't just have prophecy for today without saying there's false prophecy for today

01:28:40

And then you really have to you know, get them thinking. How do you define it? If you do next step, what do you do when you find one?

01:28:48

Right, and it's like someone who's just kind of jumped off a plane without a parachute Just like well, we're gonna do it.

01:28:54

It's like well, hold on We gotta take the proper precautions here If you're gonna say it's for today You have to at least tell me how you're going to find the false prophecy

01:29:01

And what are you going to do when you find a false prophet and if your people if your leader that's telling you is for Today, they can't even do that.

01:29:07

That's another problem But it's it's it's uh, it's really showing of what the standards are, you know, this just reiterates that Yeah At the end of the day, they have no standards

01:29:18

They they legitimately have none except this Anybody who criticized them?

01:29:24

Is is is a meanie poopy head and they're a hyper critic. That's the that's the only standard

01:29:31

Yeah, that's the point that I was just going to make. Um One of the one of the ways that you get people to really believe in your version of something

01:29:39

Is to create this straw man against the supposed Antithesis, you know like um

01:29:46

Well all those all those non -charismatics. They're powerless And they're pharisees

01:29:52

And they just stick their nose in the bible and it's all in their head and they don't actually live out their faith

01:29:57

They're they have a dead faith blah blah blah. It's all these cliches and I think a lot of people are holding on to this version of The prophetic the prophetic movement is so important because if we don't have it

01:30:11

We'll have dead religion because that's what they've been told I don't think they really know that from personal experience so much

01:30:18

As they've been told there's those other christians, you know, like kozar and roseborough And justin peters who are bitter and angry and all that stuff

01:30:27

And then there's the people like us who have all this power And we still believe in what the bible says about how important it is to continue to prophesy over people

01:30:36

So they've created this false dichotomy and I think it's I think it's helpful to flesh that out and to say

01:30:42

How do you know that all those other people are actually pharisees? How do you know that they don't really have a genuine faith?

01:30:49

In fact when you call all of those people Pharisees and and when you claim that you know for sure they all have a dead faith.

01:30:57

What does that make you? That makes you a very judgmental person. It makes you the kind of person that you're actually describing

01:31:04

Yeah, I think I think it I don't think people have thought through that So that's why they're veering towards when you hear charismatics talking about And this is not everybody but in general they talk about we got to do these things because if we don't do these things

01:31:18

We're going to be living in this dead christianity this old -fashioned fuddy -buddy thing Without really making that point very clearly and not really proving it.

01:31:27

It's just kind of assumed to be true right and I would and I would note I I'm a lutheran pastor and I prophesy every time

01:31:36

I get into the pulpit every single time I preach the or I preach the oracles of god

01:31:43

The best bit is that you can follow along because the words i've been given by god are in a book All right

01:31:50

And so Listen, okay. This is what the apostle paul this is the last letter He writes before his head is taken off of his shoulders and he's martyred for the christian faith

01:32:00

Okay, this is what he says to young pastor timothy a pastor of a congregation in the city of ephesus

01:32:05

He says as for you you continue in what you have learned And have firmly believed knowing from whom you have learned it and how from childhood

01:32:13

You've been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in jesus christ all scripture is breathed out by god

01:32:25

You you want to see the holy spirit move? We'll go to a place where they're preaching the word and you're going to hear words from god

01:32:35

These are all breathed out by the holy spirit and they are profitable for teaching for reproof for correction for training and righteousness

01:32:43

So that the man of god may be complete and equipped for every good work

01:32:48

And then he says this I charge you in the presence of god and of christ Jesus who's the judge living in the dead and by his appearing in his kingdom preach the word

01:32:58

Yeah prophetic ministry is really important so important that we dare not speak words

01:33:03

That are not gods that are not theanoustas that are not god -breathed that we vet them and we refuse to allow

01:33:12

False worthless words to be spoken in the name of our holy god In our churches that we only hear his words

01:33:21

We are called to preach the word be ready in season out of season reprove rebuke exhort with complete patience and teaching

01:33:27

The time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching but having itching ears They accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths

01:33:39

And boy, do we have that in abundance now? mike bickle uh, mike bickle and chris reed and sean bowles and chris valentine and all these

01:33:51

Nonsensical nut jobs all of them speaking false words that god has not said a single one of those words

01:33:58

Daring to blaspheme his holy name You want to know where the spirit is working?

01:34:04

in power Go find a church where the pastor's preaching the word and you'll see the spirit work in power there

01:34:16

Absolutely, absolutely, uh something that's it's when you With with and this is something that i've learned from you chris and I think is something that I I I see is probably the most valuable thing i've taken in taken in since i've left the charismatic camp

01:34:33

And and that is the the reverence for the scriptures It is the reverence for the word of god

01:34:40

Because it it's kind of flipped on its head in the charismatic movement because you're chasing after these prophetic words you're wanting more prophetic words and Uh, some of the interviews i've been doing for for the back to bethel series

01:34:53

It's been really interesting hearing some of these guys talk about it and like one of them who's no longer Part of the bethel movement.

01:35:00

He kind of talked about how how prophetic words were kind of like his lifeline How like he needed those to kind of keep going

01:35:07

And I think of it now is like it is it's like a hit It's like it's that encouragement you get it's that hit it's that dopamine hit

01:35:14

And and I I remember that feeling of just like, okay. I hope the prophet calls me. I hope the prophet calls me Hope someone gives me a word because you're just so entrenched in it and rather than just turn to the word

01:35:24

Turn turn to scripture like that. That is what the word of god is for you And you're never going to get enough of these prophetic words to yeah to fill you up and get that hit you need it's it's the word of god that does that for you and just like I just Want to publicly just say thank you because your your your righteous indignation for these kind of things

01:35:46

Really woke something up in me where I I was I realized I did not have the value for the word

01:35:52

That was needed and it and I found the more I valued the word the less I needed the prophetic words

01:35:59

It's really amazing Yeah Yeah, you know what else I I I haven't heard people talk about very much with sean bolts going in doing these stupid, you know smartphone profit things in a

01:36:12

Room with thousands and thousands of people he could only pick a few people to do his trick on Everybody else who had to go home thinking gosh, he didn't pick me

01:36:21

I guess i'm not special enough I guess god doesn't care about me as much as he cared about that person that got called out

01:36:28

I mean how many people Went back to their their little christian church and said this is so pathetic.

01:36:35

I know I want that energy I want to I want to see this excitement And they they were contrasting this giant stadium with this loud music and the people yelling and screaming and all of this excitement and then they were

01:36:47

Feeling like gosh, I not only did I I missed the excitement, but even when I was there I didn't get called out by the special prophet from the stage.

01:36:55

So there's like a it's like It just creates all this disappointment down the road

01:37:02

There it's a real void. It's a it's a real void and also just something to like i'm not not trying to do a shameless plug

01:37:08

But like on on the last I just put out my first podcast episode and I was the guy I was interviewing lovely guy

01:37:14

Andrew He was talking about his how when we went to Bethel how he wasn't really seeing things happen and how he wasn't seeing miracles and one of the things he mentions in the interview is how when he kind of set aside his his reason and and um

01:37:30

Almost logic or will's reason and understanding I think his words he used is when he started seeing things happen

01:37:35

Is when he started seeing miracles happen and seeing and prophecy and stuff and um

01:37:41

I just would like to add like that's and I even said to him in the interview. Hey, like A lot of people would say that's kind of a red flag

01:37:48

Like you set aside reason understanding and he was very cordial but I was like no

01:37:53

I like that That's really what what helped me and start start experiencing this stuff And I think that that idea of setting that stuff aside

01:38:02

Is what makes room for people like sean bowles like for these chris reeds for these?

01:38:08

Yeah, you know because because you're you're setting that stuff aside And you're and you're letting things happen and I I think that's what

01:38:16

It bree it's a breeding ground for this kind of stuff And the ability for our brain to see things that it wants to see

01:38:25

Is profound and the ability of our brain to actually heal our bodies to literally

01:38:32

Make us feel different and better Is something that scientists have proved for decades now?

01:38:38

So, uh, that's not connected to the holy spirit doing a miracle. It's the the power of our own beliefs

01:38:45

You know the psychosomatic ability of our brain to convince us of things is really powerful

01:38:51

But it's not really what christianity is all about at all and it's certainly not miraculous You know and I would note that that what what?

01:38:59

Men like chris reed and sean bowles and rick joiner and todd bentley and all these people what they do is they

01:39:08

They legitimately pray on people Who are seeking something good?

01:39:15

So so for instance the the young idealistic College student who who wants to know what their purpose is in life?

01:39:23

Okay, and they're seeking an answer from god for what to do with their life. That's a good thing

01:39:30

But what these men are offering as the voice of god in answer to that is satan

01:39:37

It's it's something completely different those who are seeking god because they are in pain

01:39:42

Because their bodies are breaking down It is a good thing that they are seeking god

01:39:48

But these wolves show up for the purpose of exploiting them with false words and give them false hope and here's the thing

01:39:56

The reason why i'm so like angry is because these people are being kept from god

01:40:04

And finding the right answers and finding the true god who not only loves them

01:40:10

Sent his son to bleed and die for their sins and rose from the grave and promises him eternal life for free as a gift

01:40:17

That rather than hear about that true god who really does care for them

01:40:22

They are given a false god by these false prophets these false teachers who stand in the way of the real god

01:40:30

And cause these people to trust in false words that god has not given them to give and the sad part is is that Guys like us who like are warning them.

01:40:41

They'll sit there and go we you're mean you're terrible. You're awful No, we are the ones who actually love you

01:40:48

Because we're telling you the truth because we're trying to get you to wake up you are in danger

01:40:53

You are not only in danger of losing your money. You're in danger of losing your eternal soul to these false teachers

01:41:01

And and and and that's the thing that is so irritating in the midst of all of this is that these these charlatans have come in and taken something that's good that these people are seeking after their actual god

01:41:16

And they are they are counterfeiting messages from him and miracles from him for the purpose of exploiting them

01:41:25

Yep, that's that's exactly what it is You know you feel any better no

01:41:38

I I I I my apologies. I don't normally show this level of When I when i'm teaching but yeah, it's

01:41:48

I I I I've been sick for three weeks. All right, so, you know,

01:41:53

I I came down with a really tired I I I had a uh, really bad bout with influenza and i'm still

01:42:00

Hocking up crap out of my lungs. It's awful But um, you know being sidelined for three weeks and not being able physically

01:42:10

To get into the fight. I feel I feel like i've been penned up and it's like That's it.

01:42:16

I'm coming out with the gloves on so that I'll be in coach I feel actually the opposite.

01:42:31

I didn't want to make another video. I'm actually behind me. I got this huge painting commission to do And I I kid you not every day

01:42:40

Every day I say to myself I don't want to do this anymore. I'm so sick of this fight. I wish it would just end i'm sick of these false teachers

01:42:48

I'm sick of the fact that we're outnumbered a thousand to one And i'm just a guy in my basement with a computer that doesn't even work half the time actually the computer it's fine it was the sound we had a problem with but I mean it's

01:42:59

It's so hard because I know we're getting results But man, are we out outnumbered?

01:43:05

Yeah, and yet yeah, I you know, I would I would think that we're having the impact that we are yeah, I would encourage you guys and really, um

01:43:14

Sorry, I just saw the comment kristen westwood rocking the chin hair. Yes. We have beards. Um so I I was something i'm really encouraged by is just the the way we are able to engage with people and Uh sean bolts being outed in this way

01:43:32

Is really taking out one of the big pillars in the in the charismatic apologetic for the gifts um because A lot of the conversations

01:43:42

I would have people would point to him and say well if gifts aren't for today How do you explain someone like sean bolts? How do you explain someone who's getting things so accurately and you could make your arguments and bring up your proof?

01:43:52

to have something to this level that that Kind of cuts it off at the knees is a is a big win in ways in the and they are

01:44:00

And I say win in the sense of apologetic. There's no wins in the sense of people's lives here It's a heartbreak and something

01:44:07

I would um I've been finding in my conversations and talking with people and trying to connect with people on the other side of the aisle in the sense of theologically

01:44:15

Be gentle in the approach of when someone says I I believe that guy Because they very well could have moved on a word and they they may feel like a fool right now

01:44:25

And having the empathy to to reach out to them and have the conversation say hey, listen

01:44:31

You you may have believed that but there there is good true words that could edify your life

01:44:37

That are in scripture. There are good true words that could help You know what to do next in your walk and it's in scripture

01:44:44

And and pointing them back to scripture and not trying to make people out as a fool Um, it's hard like it's a it's a tough pill to swallow when you've been in that movement for so long and you've done stuff

01:44:55

Because of words and you've packed your bags and you've moved your family and now you got pie on your face

01:45:01

That that is a tough pill to swallow. So I would just encourage everyone When you guys are engaging people that are maybe still of this theology to really

01:45:13

Maybe rather than pointing a finger ask a question in the sense of like have have you moved on a prophetic word before?

01:45:19

and if they have Trying to walk them through like hey There's grace for you and there's actually a good gospel message for you.

01:45:27

It's in scripture. There's a fulfilling message in scripture There's a good news in scripture and it will fill you it will abundantly fill you

01:45:34

And it's it's good. It's good. It's a good word. It's always good Um, it's it's very refreshing when you come out of it and you have that to work on and chew on coming out of that Movement, you know

01:45:44

And the idea of something being refreshing I I remember when I first was given the idea that Maybe all of these breadcrumb trails that we were following weren't actually from God at all

01:45:56

Yeah, and maybe There are times where God wants us to just do the practical thing that makes sense that he doesn't have to give us all these

01:46:04

Little tiny breadcrumbs to follow. Yeah, you know like oh you're really good at this and these doors have opened for you to do such and such

01:46:11

That's what you should do You don't you don't need some special word from God. It's so refreshing, you know, like for instance

01:46:17

Do you want to make more money? Here's an idea Maybe get a better job if you can maybe go to school or something like that, but just don't spend

01:46:26

All of your money take a little bit and save it live Beneath your what is it live below your means?

01:46:32

What's the what's the phrase just the simple things that non -christians do? Right. Yeah I remember that being so freeing to me because I kept hearing people giving me all these

01:46:42

These like, um, you know magical little formulas And all of them failed all of them made everything worse.

01:46:49

We lost so much money We did so many dumb things because of prophetic words We have called it and I have not even gone into that on our channel and maybe we will at some point but I I just want to encourage people that there's there's actually freedom

01:47:04

And just living a normal life and realizing that the real focal point of christianity is just like what chris was saying

01:47:09

It's about us being forgiven for our sins It's about knowing that jesus died on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins that were guilty before god as sinners

01:47:18

And in spite of that he died in our place so that we could have eternal life So that no matter what happens in this world

01:47:25

And it gets rotten. Sometimes this world can be a rotten place full of disappointment And that may not change but when you die, you're going to live

01:47:33

With god in heaven for eternity and that will be great. That will be wonderful That's the one promise we can all agree on regardless of what happens in this life

01:47:42

Yeah, and that and that preaches everywhere That's that's a good message. You could take anywhere.

01:47:48

That's you know, that's a good one. Yeah Yeah, you know what's funny though and this is kind of interesting is is that I think one of the major tests you can tell

01:47:57

When when a theological system is off the biblical rails Is they have their inability to be able to deal with sin?

01:48:08

You know, you know and here's the thing there's scandals are going to break out in in no matter what denomination or Theological movement there is this is this is just how this works.

01:48:18

Okay. It doesn't matter if you're Theology is as pure as the wind driven snow. There's always going to be some guy who's going to sleep with his secretary and Scandalize people and it's just going to be it's going to be awful, right?

01:48:29

All of that being said it's it's not whether or not there's a scandal the question is how do they handle?

01:48:38

Sin when it when it comes up in an eventually will And you'll know that like rome the way they do it

01:48:44

They sweep everything under the carpet and then they have to you know, do these bazillion dollar settlements to all the victims, right?

01:48:50

That's a sign that the theology there is is is whack because they don't know what to do with their sin Okay, uh, and then you you look at the all these these pentecostal and charismatic scandals

01:49:01

Can anybody say that anybody has rightly handled any of these scandals? Okay, you know the the big looming question is is is bickle going to be restored is michael brown going to be restored where?

01:49:13

Where is the proper way that sin is to be dealt with? Scripture is very clear on this if we say we have no sin

01:49:20

We deceive ourselves the truth is not in us if we confess our sins God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness

01:49:29

So you'll note that sean bowles Can't even confess his sin That should tell you he doesn't understand the biblical truth at all.

01:49:39

He doesn't Okay, and and look what's happened with all of these scandals people just kind of being quietly pushed away and disappearing and all this kind of Stuff that's not the right way of dealing with sin either

01:49:51

Okay, you know it you know i'll be blunt robert morris mike bickle

01:49:58

Chris reed at you know, all of these guys my prayer for them Is that they confess?

01:50:05

That they repent and they experience the comfort Of knowing that christ has bled and died for all of these sins and that through their repentance

01:50:15

They would confess what they've done to everybody to hurt them and be reconciled to their victims

01:50:21

Only in christianity. Can you actually be reconciled to those you victimized?

01:50:27

Because the cross is that great? The forgiveness of sins is that amazing so that we are forgiven by god for all of our iniquity

01:50:36

And we can even forgive and be reconciled with those who've sinned against us

01:50:41

But I don't see that in these other theological systems. I don't see that with these people Scandal after scandal after scandal comes up and the sin isn't addressed in a christian

01:50:54

Way where christ is exalted in his saving work on the cross

01:51:00

And people are brought to repentance. There's none of that and that's the great tragedy in all of this is because Because of their false theology, they don't understand the gospel

01:51:11

They don't even really know who jesus is and what he's really done and that's the terrible tragedy of all of this

01:51:20

Yep Yep, it's true. I mean, that's where I came out of That's where I mean,

01:51:27

I mean the first time I feel like I actually heard the gospel was like 20 20 20 And I feel like I was like what what how have

01:51:33

I not heard this before? Like I don't know what it was, but it's it's true. It's true. Yeah Yeah Well, I don't want to beat this horse anymore.

01:51:42

It's dead. We should dismount so Thanks for coming along with me on this rant and giving me and like filling the spaces while my smoke was clearing, you know

01:51:55

I'll say we were just we were just as much viewers as the viewers were Sorry No, thanks for having us chris.

01:52:03

This is great. I appreciate righteous indignation is maybe the the subtitle of this particular episode

01:52:08

But alas, so all right you guys hang on for a second I'm gonna i'm gonna i'm gonna say goodbye to folks and we'll see you guys next time

01:52:14

Folks and i'll be right back. Hang on a second here so if you found this

01:52:20

Well me lighting myself on fire and immolating myself on you know to be a a helpful thing

01:52:26

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01:52:32

Who support fighting for the faith financially you legitimately make it possible for us to do what we're doing here

01:52:37

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01:52:44

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01:52:51

And help support the work that we're doing So until next time may god richly bless you in the grace and mercy won by jesus christ and his vicarious death on the cross