May 10, 2019 Show with Douglas Kuiper on “The History of the Synod of Dordt”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century Gospel Minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlyle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the Church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this 10th day of May 2019.

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And I'm delighted to have a returning guest today, Professor Douglas Kuyper, who is a professor of Church History and New Testament at the

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Protestant Reform Theological Seminary, and today he's going to be addressing the history of the Synod of Dort during its 400th anniversary.

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And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Douglas Kuyper. Thank you.

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It's a privilege to be with you again. And I'm going to give our email address right away for any of our listeners that may care to join us on the air with a question.

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You can specifically ask on the Synod of Dort, but we're going to broaden the topic for questions from our audience.

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Anything regarding Reform Theology would be fine, how it is different from Arminianism, how it is different from mainstream modern -day

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Evangelicalism, etc. So if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com,

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chrisarnzen at gmail .com. And as always, please give us at least your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. And please always remember to only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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We already had you, I believe, give your testimony of salvation the first time you were on the program.

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But, excuse me, I'm sorry, brother? No, that's correct. Go ahead. But I was going to ask you, before we get into the topic, why don't you tell our listeners something about the

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Protestant Reform Theological Seminary in Michigan? Yes, thank you. The Protestant Reform Theological Seminary in Granville, Michigan, a suburb of Grand Rapids, is devoted to the training of men for ministry in the

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Protestant Reform churches, as well as in our sister churches in Singapore, in the

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Philippines, and in Northern Ireland. And any other student from any other church who wishes to be educated by us is also welcome, presuming that he is himself a

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Reformed, confessing believer. The seminary, as a side note, just concluded its semester today, except for next week is exam week.

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So we're coming again to the summer break. Great.

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One thing we stand for, of course, being Reformed, would be the five points of Calvinism, and we desire that our men who come out of the seminary not only have a well -rounded education, but a thorough understanding of and conviction of the truth of sovereign grace.

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Amen. And for our listeners who are either new Christians or perhaps you are just outside of the camp of Reformed theology and you're unfamiliar with the five points of Calvinism, they are total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and perseverance and preservation of the saints.

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And we have done a number, quite a number of programs on that subject. So if you looked up Calvinism in the

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio archive, if you typed that in the search engine, I'm sure you will have programs that discuss either all five points in one program in a summary fashion or the points one at a time so that you can learn more about them.

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Well, the interesting thing that comes out of our topic today,

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I think, having said what we both just said about the five points of Calvinism, is that the original five points, the original system of theology that had been spelled out in five points was not created by Calvinists but by Arminians in protest to Reformed theology.

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And I believe our subject at hand today is a result of a response to that remonstrance, is it not?

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It is. So why don't you give us some of that background. Okay, good.

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The Arminians wrote five points in 1610 setting forth their view of these doctrines that God elected, and in electing, they didn't hesitate to speak of God electing from eternity, but their election that they presented was one in which

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God foresaw in time who would believe and obey. So his election was not so much an appointing of some to eternal life as it was a recognizing who would fulfill the conditions on the basis of which he would give them eternal life.

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Similarly, they viewed the death of Christ as making salvation possible for everyone.

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They emphasized then man's free will, man is able to choose, and in that connection they acknowledged the depravity, the sinfulness, and even spoke in an orthodox way of the depravity of the human race and of mankind.

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But because man is able to choose, he's also, they said, able to resist the grace of God.

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God wants all men to believe. He tries to persuade all to believe, but man can stand in the way.

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Therefore, we do not know that anyone will persevere in faith, but those who do finally persevere in their own strength will be saved.

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That was their, in a nutshell, their five points of the remonstrance.

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Go ahead. No, no, you can continue. Okay, then the next year, the contra -remonstrance countered that with a document defending what we now call, in essence, the five points of Calvinism.

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But that discussion continued until the Senate of Dort, which spelled out the Reformed position more clearly.

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Well, let's perhaps dig a little bit more deeply into what the

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Armenians historically believed that caused them to rebel or protest against Reformed Christianity.

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As far as the nature of man, from what

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I understand, they do believe, Armenians, even Wesleyan Armenians today, do believe that man is born with original sin.

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But from what I understand, one of the reasons they protest Reformed theology is that they do not believe that man's nature is so corrupted that man cannot choose in a saving way to repent and follow

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Christ. Am I describing that accurately? Yes, although what

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I want to do is distinguish the Arminianism that's so prevalent today.

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I think you referred to it earlier as Wesleyan Arminianism, did you not? Yes, as far as today,

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I know that there is a difference between Evangelical Arminianism that is dominant today and the teachings of Jacob Arminius.

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I know that they're not in lockstep or a mirror image of each other, but... That's just a point to underscore.

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You'll find, of course, a lot of similarity between the two. But Jacob Arminius himself would have spoken rather in an orthodox way of the depravity and even the death of man.

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He wouldn't have hesitated, didn't hesitate to say that man died in sin.

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That, after all, is the language of Ephesians. However, showing that he was inconsistent and then really fundamentally wrong, he had, as you pointed out, the idea of a free will of man, so man can somehow be involved or active in his own salvation, though Arminius would have said he was dead.

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So there he was inconsistent. But today, some would be more ready to say that man was not even dead, sin did not destroy him spiritually.

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Arminius was ready to use that language. Yes, you would have many, not all, but you would have many today being more consistent with Pelagius on the nature of man.

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Yes, although Arminius' views were certainly Pelagian, and he was not orthodox, yet today

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Arminians would spell that out and make it even more obvious that they were Pelagian.

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So here is where the matters get more confusing when we have our conversations with our

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Arminian friends, is that they want to somehow protect the notion that we owe our salvation to God.

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So a teaching that is shared by Roman Catholics and Wesleyan Arminians has been labeled,

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Prevenient Grace, something that is nowhere taught in the scriptures. And I know that the

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Roman Catholics have a different understanding than that of the Wesleyan Arminians, but can you explain that erroneous teaching, and did

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Jacob Arminius believe in this teaching? I'm looking up something a moment, but in answer to that,

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I don't know if he would have called it Prevenient, but the idea that God's grace was a help,

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God wants all to believe, he gives grace to all to believe, the grace that he gives is a nudging, an attempt to persuade man, because God, according to Arminius, honors man's own will.

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And he works with man as a creature that has his own will. So God's grace amounts to an attempt to convince man, by his own will, to do the right thing.

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In that sense, then, I don't know that Arminius would have used the term Prevenient, but the concept was, it's what he taught to them.

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So the reason why this makes clear and understandable dialogue with Arminian friends, it gets more confusing, because they cannot be consistent.

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It seems that they are trying desperately to teach that every single human has some kind of equal access to God, if they so will, to repent and believe, if they are willing to follow the prompting of God in Prevenient grace or what have you.

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But it's clearly evident from history that not all men are given equal opportunities.

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In fact, for centuries, there are many parts of the globe that didn't even have the

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Gospel or any of the Bible. They never heard the Word of God or read the Word of God. So, either you have to believe that those people went to Hell and somehow had an equal playing field as those who had the

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Scriptures, which doesn't make sense, or you have to invent something that's even worse, that you have to invent a universal salvation, or a second chance salvation, or a salvation where people save individuals according to the light that they have, not because they truly believe in the

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Gospel or truly trust in the finished work of Christ. Isn't this a contradiction of logic to say that all men have an equal access to God in an

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Arminian concept? Absolutely. And you touched on a proof of it, not only, that in the

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Old Testament, there was only one people to whom

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God really showed His favor, but also that in the New Testament, the Gospel didn't go everywhere at once.

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If, indeed, God is concerned for the salvation of every human, and if His way of showing that is to try to induce every human to use

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His free will, then it is not consistent that the Gospel would not have been proclaimed throughout the world immediately.

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Right. And you have a God that is eternally frustrated because the majority of people that He wanted to save are lost, and will be lost.

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Right. And going on to unconditional election, what did

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Jacob Arminius believe about election? Because it is clearly a biblical concept.

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It's just that it depends on who you are and what background you're from and what lens you're reading the

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Bible through, how you interpret what that means. Because, obviously, an Arminian can't just say,

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I don't believe in election. Well, if you don't believe in election, then you don't believe in the very words of Scripture, such as in Ephesians and in Romans and so on.

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So tell us, what did Jacob Arminius actually believe about election? Good. First of all, he was not afraid to use the term election or predestination.

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It was a scriptural term, and he recognized that. Secondly, in his writings, he said very little about election.

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I have his three volumes here, but I have to page through them to put my thumb right on it.

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But I think in two places in his three volumes, in the three volumes of the writings of Arminius, does he write regarding predestination.

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And then a significant part of his writings regarding predestination are actually not positively setting forth of his view, but an opposing of what he sees to be a wrong statement.

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In other words, an opposing of, especially the idea of a reprobation, a decree of reprobation, and the opposing of an unconditional view.

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So let me find a moment here his definition.

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While you're looking, I'm just going to quick repeat our email address. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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chrisarnson at gmail .com. And as always, please give us your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Okay, I'm sorry. Go ahead.

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No, that's fine. Thank you. And I'm not, even though I'm finding places, he doesn't have a succinct.

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I'm going to have to leave it at that for the moment without doing more work. The point, though, is he does not expand at length on what predestination is, other than the general idea that God saw ahead in time, and that's his view of predestination anyway, that God saw ahead in time who would believe and who would not.

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Okay, I'm coming to his Declaration of Sentiments, for example, and the first chapter in it is on predestination.

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And the first thing he does is say that he rejects the error of those who assume the superlapsarian position.

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The second thing he does is reject, he gives his reasons at length.

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It's almost a polemic against superlapsarianism, more than it is a setting forth positively of his own view.

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Now, again, when we go back to something you said earlier, the predominant view today of those that reject unconditional election is that God looks through the corridors of time, since he is omniscient, he knows the future, and of course there is an extremely heretical group that exceeds the heresies of the

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Arminians, who are called open theists, and they even call themselves consistent

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Arminians on occasion, but they believe that God doesn't know all of the future. But most

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Arminians are not in that camp, they believe God knows all things, and therefore he elects people according to his knowledge of whom will choose him.

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So there you have really God electing people according to something good that they have demonstrated, they have pleased

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God by repenting and believing in him, and therefore he is rewarding them by saving them and electing them according to something they did, really, and therefore it really radically diminishes an understanding of owing

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God 100 % of the praise, honor, and glory for your salvation, doesn't it? Because it really is basing it,

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God is basing it in their understanding on something good that men have done.

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Right. You're right. I'm going to twist or turn, just a second though.

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My own sentiments on predestination, says Arminius, are that there are four points to the decree of God.

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The first point is to appoint Jesus Christ for a mediator, redeemer, savior, priest, and king.

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The second absolute decree of God is a decree to receive into his favor those who repent and believe, and to leave in sin all impenitent persons and unbelievers.

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So there you have very clearly what will be spelled out as a conditional view. The third decree of predestination, says

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Arminius, is that God decided to administer in a sufficient and efficacious manner the means which were necessary for repentance of faith.

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So God decided, again, to give man what man needs to repent and believe.

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And then fourthly, God has decreed, basically this is the foreknowledge aspect, that God in his decree has seen who will and who will not.

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So there you have four points he makes about predestination. But he makes them in the space of one, just over one page, and again emphasizing that he didn't develop at length, he was more concerned to oppose.

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Everything that he says fits still with points you're making with the fact that it's up to man.

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Yeah, it seems that in a desperate attempt to defend in their minds the love of God, the grace of God, the mercy of God, to make

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God a kinder God, they are trying to assist upon things that they cannot logically and consistently hold to themselves without contradiction.

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Because of the fact that we've already demonstrated in the nature of man that provenient grace could not have fallen upon every single person that ever lived because we have centuries of history where the gospel was absent geographically in different parts of the globe.

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And even today, not every tribe, tongue, people, and nation has been evangelized. There are un -evangelized tribes even today.

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So you can't have a consistency where you say God has placed everybody on an equal playing field and loves everybody equally and gives everybody the same opportunity because it's demonstrably false.

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Even in lands where the gospel has been proclaimed that are under Sharia law, for instance, is an

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Arminian going to tell us that a child in the Bible belt has the same privilege and opportunity and playing field as a child born in a

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Muslim family under Sharia law in the Middle East where he could be executed for his belief if he were to believe?

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None of it makes sense, does it? Right. You are correct.

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So moving on to another Arminian concept. This is a concept that even has those that would claim to be in agreement with much of Calvinism.

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They would probably rarely call themselves Amaraldians, but that is historically what they have been called.

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They are more commonly known as four -point Calvinists, although most of the people that I have met who call themselves four -point

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Calvinists do not really define those four points in the same way that reformed people do historically.

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But the limited atonement doctrine, which is also known as particular redemption, it is also known as definite atonement, this is an area that obviously the

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Arminians protested against as far as Christ only dying to save a certain fixed number of people from their sins.

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And if you can move on and perhaps explain a little bit further the

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Arminian concept of this teaching regarding the death of Christ. Good.

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The Arminians view the death of Christ not as even making atonement.

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So our first difference with the Arminians in this doctrine isn't that they say he died for all and we say he died for some, but even the question of what did he do when he died and the answer to that is an area in which

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Reformed and Arminians would differ. The Arminian view of the death of Christ is that God sent

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Christ to the death of the cross in order to show what he could do for sin.

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Now I'm going to give, by the way, a couple different angles to their view now. So number one, that he sent

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Christ to the death of the cross to show what God could do for sin. But number two, especially as you study the canons of Dort and the view of the

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Arminians that the canons reject in the second head, what you see is the canons opposing the

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Arminian idea that the death of Christ just basically gave the Father a reason to start all over.

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In other words, his way of saving Israel in the Old Testament wasn't working.

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That was the way of obedience, perfect obedience. Perseverance, not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

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And that wasn't working well. Man just wasn't able to do it. It's as if God didn't realize this ahead of time.

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But he's stuck with it. He's made his stipulation. So he needs a reason to change the way he works with man.

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So he sends Christ to the death of the cross and this allows him to end the old covenant and start from scratch, establish a new covenant.

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In the Rejection of Errors done of Head 2, you find articles that I think it's 3 and 2, 3, and 4, but let me pull it up a moment.

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Articles that point to this being the Arminian view of the death of Christ.

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Yes, Error 2. It was not the purpose of the death of Christ that he should confirm the new covenant of grace through blood, but only that he should acquire for the

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Father the mere right to establish with man such a covenant as he might please, whether of grace or of works.

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And again, Error 3. That Christ merited for the Father only the authority to deal again with man and prescribe new conditions as he might desire.

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So really, Christ didn't die for man. Christ died to do something or to permit

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God to do something different. That would be getting more at the real heart of it.

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Therefore, of course, whatever Christ did in dying can have some benefit for all of humanity.

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Now, are you saying that that would be more in line with Jacob Arminius' understanding of the death of Christ?

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Because the reason why I ask is that nearly to a man, every single person that I can think of that I've ever met over my decades of salvation going back to the mid -1980s, it's always been ironic to me and puzzling how non -Reformed

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Christians or even vehemently anti -Calvinist Christians will claim the same things, or should

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I say many of the same things, that we would claim about the purpose of the death of Christ, and yet they would just say they disagree that he only died for a fixed number of people, meaning the elect, that he died for every single man, woman, and child that ever lived and ever will live.

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But they are inconsistent, obviously. And I'll give you an example of what I mean, or a couple of examples.

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I remember on a Christian radio station where I worked for 15 years, the talk show host was interviewing a friend of mine who is a non -Calvinist,

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King James only, independent fundamentalist Baptist. And this brother was saying on the talk show that Christ finished the work completely of redemption on Calvary.

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He completely, 100 % accomplished and finished the work of redemption. So I called in, it was a live call -in show, and I told this brother, wow, congratulations brother,

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I didn't know that you became a Calvinist. And he said, what are you talking about brother? I said, you just said that Christ finished the work of redemption on Calvary.

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That's right, amen. And I said, well I guess you believe either only his elect are saved and redeemed from that, or you believe every single human being that has ever lived or ever will live will be saved.

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And he said, oh no, I don't believe that. And I said, well how can he have finished the work of redemption completely in the cross, unless either only the elect are saved or everyone is saved.

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And he could not answer the question, because he was trying to have his cake and eat it too, if you will.

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He was trying to agree with the historically reformed understanding of why

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Christ died, and what he actually did, and what he accomplished. But he had to adopt the non -Calvinist view, according to his tradition, on the number of people for whom

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Christ died, which is infinite. So wouldn't you say that many, if not most, non -reformed people today would have this oxymoronic understanding of the cross, this paradox, where they're not really being consistent on this issue, as far as what

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Christ did versus for whom he did it? Yes, I think you're right.

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There are, remember, more than one and more than two theories of atonement and of what

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Christ did in dying on the cross. Throughout Church history there have been several different views.

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But you can't separate the question of what did he do from for whom did he do it.

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And as soon as you hear people speaking of Christ's death for all, immediately the question is, well, did he really make atonement?

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Do you even understand what atonement is? Right. And in fact,

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I heard a Nazarene seminary professor who was logically consistent in his

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Arminianism because he was rebuking his fellow Arminians for using the term substitutionary atonement.

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And he said, we cannot use that term because if Christ truly died as a substitute for every single human being that ever lived and ever will live, every single person who ever lived and ever will live will be saved.

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So he understood the ramifications and the logical consistency of Arminianism as opposed to what he hears himself from most of those that would call themselves

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Arminian. And of course, I would say that most people who reject Reformed theology, at least most that I know, not all, certainly not all, but most do not call themselves

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Arminian. They prefer to just call them Biblicists as if their views are supported by the

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Bible. But you cannot consistently hold that Jesus died for every single human being unless you are a full -blown

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Universalist or a Calvinist. Right. And we're going to our midway break right now.

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I'm sorry, not our midway break. We're going to our first break right now. If you have any questions for Professor Kuyper on the history of the

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Synod of Dort and any other issues related to the doctrines of Reformed theology or Calvinism, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

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chrisarnson at gmail .com And as always, please give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

33:32

USA. And please, as always, only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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That's chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com Don't go away. We will be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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gmail dot com please give us your first name is always city and state of residence in country residence if you live outside the usa only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter uh...

42:12

the the teaching of irresistible grace uh... that is a most misunderstood concept especially misunderstood by our minions because they say how can you say you believe in an irresistible grace when people resist his grace his mercy his teaching every day even the best of christians sin so therefore how can you possibly say that grace is irresistible a they totally misunderstand what we're saying so uh...

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what if you could explain the true concept the truly reformed historically and biblically uh...

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concept of irresistible grace and how did jacob arminius and his followers and those subsequent to him uh...

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distort this or or respond to it and and and and opposite way first of all let me say that the bible while stephanie for instance accuses the jews of resisting god's grace so those who appeal to irresistible or teach irresistible grace are going to appeal to passages like that there is a sense in which but it's certainly not the sense in which arminius meant it that the way to understand stephan's statement would be to say that when the gospel is preached men hate the gospel in that sense they resist god's grace now that's not to suggest that god intended grace for them uh...

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that they are failing to do what they're able to do and what god wants them to do but i just want to make that point there's there's that bible passage there would be others to which appear they would appeal to say look the bible teaches irresistible grace the point there is not that god is trying to work grace in a man's heart but a man is resisting it the point of those passages is man shows he hates the gospel so the arminian view of grace is simply that at least in the remonstrance of 1610 they simply said but it is resistible it is not irresistible and uh...

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let's see i'm looking for what arminius said but you had a different question well let me also while you're looking and also repeat our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com chrisarnson at gmail dot com give us your first name city and state country of residence if you live outside the u .s

44:53

.a. and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter uh... i was just saying that they misunderstand what we mean and from what i have always believed and understood as a reformed christian after my uh...

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enlightenment if you will when god showed me the truth of the doctrines of sovereign grace of reform theology is that ultimately uh...

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god's grace is irresistible and when we are regenerate when we are regenerate when we are regenerated also uh...

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we are not going to become apostate ultimately even if a christian may stumble and fall and retreat into a season of unrepentant sin for a period of time he will by god's mercy and grace get up and repent and follow christ once again we don't believe in sinless perfectionism as christians or as reformed christians but at the same time uh...

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in regard to irresistible grace we mean it will ultimately be irresistible and that we will uh...

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in truth be brought to him at the end of life uh...

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we will share heaven with him for eternity if indeed we are truly regenerate uh...

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so in that sense it's irresistible not that we don't sin not that we don't on occasion many occasions disobey him and not that when we were in our pre -regenerate stage of course even the elect were not born regenerate there are periods of life that differ between person and person but some people are saved on their deathbed at a hundred years old uh...

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so therefore they have been resisting god all of that time until he brings them to eternal life and uh...

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gives them the ability to believe and embrace the gospel so what i'm saying is in a nutshell when we say irresistible grace we're referring to it ultimately are we not right and in fact to add something that just like with atonement where the armenians not only disagreed regarding the extent but really the nature of atonement so maybe your question earlier was getting at they disagreed with the nature of grace and because they disagreed regarding what grace actually is they shall i say paved the way made room for their idea that it's resistible the armenian view of grace is that it's a gentle nudging and advising it's god telling man here's what you should do rather than god infusing working in a man is saving power and uh...

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i understand uh... from uh... from not only a fairly modern day church history not not very recent history but as far as the foundations of the protestant reform denomination that your denomination and its ministers believe that even most of reform theology today uh...

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has adopted an understanding of grace that you believe to be flawed in that we do use grace in different ways that extend beyond salvific reasons like common grace i know that uh...

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your dot your denomination opposes that that uh... that phrase uh...

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is it more than a semantical difference because those that i know who are reformed when they use the term common grace which i think may have the term may have been coined by abraham kuyper i'm not sure but um...

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they're not saying that that that type of grace is salvific they're just saying that god demonstrates kindness on even the reprobate in that he is not living a life on earth that is filled with torment necessarily uh...

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he is blessed and you know the rain falls upon the just and the unjust etc as the scriptures teach uh...

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how is the use of grace in that way uh... being objected to by you and your denomination okay uh...

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number one the question is first of all common grace has different connotations or it or it means different things so we have to be clear when we speak of common grace as to what exactly is or what point we're touching on uh...

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our however you asked earlier is it just uh... semantic and my answer is going to be no when we understand common grace from any viewpoint in which that the idea has been developed and is defended we're going to say there's something wrong with calling that grace and something wrong with suggesting that god has a grace to every man now first of all with regard to the um...

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rain and sunshine the good gifts of god to all granted he gives all men good gifts number one is that different from providence somehow our answer will be no we can explain that he gives men good gifts in that that's part of his work of providence number two does his giving the wicked who hate him and despise his word rain and sunshine and money riches serve the purpose of him trying to draw them to him no what purpose does it serve it serves the purpose of leaving them without excuse and preparing them even more for their judgment even like romans one bingo yup so why in the world use such a lovely term as grace with all its beautiful significance to describe that i suggest that the bible does not use the word grace that way now is the uh...

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the interpretation of the greek word for grace in the new testament uh...

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is that merely unmerited favor because obviously having a a reprobate farmer have his crops fed with rain and have his family financially blessed and taken care of in that way uh...

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yes that is the good providence of god but is it not also an unmerited kindness and unmerited favor toward towards these reprobate individuals well again i'm going to deny that it's a favor it's a kindness it's an earthly gift no question about it it's an earthly gift but if i give a kid hmm if i give somebody a piece of candy but it's poisoned so it has the effect that this is not of course a perfect analogy it has the effect of killing them but i don't love them right mhm and so god why does he give these gifts to men to leave them without excuse so that on the day of judgment they are the more worthy of condemnation so there's no favor in that but now there's another angle to take to if we're going to look for rain and sunshine as evidences of common grace a favor of god toward all what happens when he gives too much sunshine and there's a drought or too much rain and there's a flood what do you call that and what do you call it when a man doesn't have enough food to live on and he starves to death it's fine to speak of it it's not fine don't get me wrong i disagree with the idea of a common grace but those who speak of it speak of it when things are going well in life rain and sunshine plenty and riches that's all great is that how god always deals with men so is there a common curse when i'm poor when i'm starving all of this all of these questions are raised by what i think is a faulty application of the term grace to what is nothing more than providence grace of god isn't in the things it's in the purpose or motive for which he gives them and he gives them only in grace above to his own in christ well i would love at some point on the show to have a friendly exchange between uh...

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a member of the protestant reform church and someone who disagrees on the common grace issue uh...

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but uh... i i i can say that i do not agree with those that have cast a dispersion upon your denomination that that is a hyper calvinist teaching i know that even a great hero of mine john gersner agreed with your denomination on that issue and john gersner of course was a mentor to r .c.

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sproul and james montgomery boyce and so on uh... right so and i know that he was a friend of our mutual friend david engelsma has been a guest on this program uh...

54:50

so but i think that would be an enlightening conversation uh... but i think i think that that the term hyper calvinism should be left out of that i i am i am convinced thoroughly that your denomination is not hyper calvinist i know that you do proclaim the gospel to everyone that you come in uh...

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and in contact with regardless of whether they are the most perverse of prostitutes are the most pious of preachers uh...

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that every tribe tongue and people in nation are given the gospel so there is no uh...

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some kind of hyper calvinistic understanding in regard to evangelism right that's true but i want to say our discussion of common grace to this point is focused on rain and sunshine again that's only one area of common grace now the question it's more to the point really is does god in revealing himself in nature desire the salvation of all and the armenians at that point use the term common grace abraham kuyper was not the first okay armenians use the term common grace to refer to god making himself known in creation and then their their spin on it was because he loves all and wants all to be saved and if the gospel hasn't gone to all still man by seeing god and the testimony of god in creation can be saved and that's god's favor to him so that's a whole other area and a third area when we speak of common grace brings us into the well met offer of the gospel area and we're going to go to our yes and we're going to go to our midway break right now i'm sorry to interrupt you because i've already gone over my time as far as our midway break this is the longer the normal break that we have on iron trip and zion radio because grace life radio ninety point one fm in lake city florida requires of us a longer break so that they can localize iron trip and zion to the lake city florida area with their own public service announcements and commercials while we air our own commercials that are heard globally so while they're airing their ads and public service announcements and we're airing ours uh...

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please use this time lightly uh... wisely uh...

57:09

i should have said don't take this time lightly and use it wisely but uh...

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write down not only questions for our guest douglas kuiper but write down the information provided by our advertisers so that you can more frequently patronize them and successfully patronize them because we rely upon our advertisers to exist so because we need the funding that comes through their advertising campaign so please patronize them as often as you can also write down questions for douglas kuiper at chris arntzen at gmail dot com chris arntzen at gmail dot com please as always give us your first name your city and state of residence in your country of residence if you live outside the usa only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter don't go away we'll be right back with douglas kuiper after these messages from our sponsors iron sharpens iron radio is sponsored by harvey cedars a year -round bible conference and retreat center nestled on the jersey shore harvey cedars offers a wide range of accommodations to suit groups up to four hundred for generations christians have enjoyed gathering and growing at harvey cedars each year thousands of high school and college students come and learn more about god's word an additional nine thousand come annually to harvey cedars as families couples singles men women pastors seniors and missionaries ninety miles from new york city seventy miles from philly and ninety five miles from wilmington and easily accessible scores of notable christian groups frequently planned conferences at harvey cedars like the navigators intervarsity christian fellowship campus crusade and the alliance of confessing evangelicals find harvey cedars on facebook or at hcbible .org

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visit citizenpriest .com today chris arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio here i want to tell you about a man i have personally known for many years his name is dan buttafuoco dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer but not the type that typically comes to mind dan cares about people and is a theologian himself recently he wrote a book titled consider the evidence for the bible ravi zacharias wrote the foreword dan also has a masters degree in theology dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states he represents many christians in serious injury matters all over the country dan is an exceptional trial lawyer he wrote the test for the national board of trial advocacy and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for 1 million dollars or more and in approximately 10 different states in illinois his lawyers had the 4th largest settlement in the states history in new york his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the law journal if you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state i recommend that you call dan consultations are free there is no fee unless you win dan buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878 1 -800 -669 -4878 or email me for dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail dot com that's chrisarnson at gmail dot com hi i'm stephen limblad assistant professor of systematic theology at irbs theological seminary in mansfield texas i accepted this call to teach at the seminary because i'm firmly convinced that the people of god in the churches of our lord jesus christ need to be firmly grounded in the truth of holy scripture i'm excited to be teaching such subjects as the nature of theology and the doctrine of scripture and even the doctrine of the person and work of jesus christ our churches and our people need to be well grounded in these truths indeed future ministers of the gospel need to understand these truths in order to proclaim them to all of god's people if you want to learn more about our program visit us online at irbsseminary .org

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hi i'm buzz taylor frequent co -host with chris arnson on iron sharpens iron radio i would like to introduce you to my good friends todd and patty jennings at cvbbs which stands for cumberland valley bible book service todd and patty specialize in supplying reformed and puritan books and bibles at discount prices that make them affordable to everyone since 1987 the family owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available christian books and bibles at the best possible prices unlike other book sites they make no effort to provide every book that is available because frankly much of what is being printed is not worth your time that means you can get to the good stuff faster it also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic heretical and otherwise faith insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors their website is cvbbs .com

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browse the pages at ease shop at your leisure and purchase with confidence as todd and patty work in service to you the church and to christ that's cumberland valley bible book service at cvbbs .com

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that's cvbbs .com let todd and patty know that you heard about them on iron sharpens iron radio and you can call cvbbs .com

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at their toll free number 800 -656 -0231 800 -656 -0231 monday through friday between 10am and 4 .30pm

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eastern time and don't forget about the phenomenal offer that they currently have they are giving away absolutely free of charge my favorite of all biographies a pastor in new york the life and times of spencer cohen this is an absolutely remarkable biography that i think should be made into a major motion picture at least a documentary because spencer cohen not only did he live an incredibly amazing and phenomenal and extraordinary life but he is virtually unknown today in fact i don't think that i've ever met even a reformed christian and even more specifically a reformed baptist christian who has even heard of this great figure from history spencer cohen was a reformed baptist pastor in new york city in the 19th century back then they called them particular baptists and he had a life that is meant for a movie he was a school teacher he became a lawyer he was a theater actor a stage actor in the 19th century he was a war hero in the war of 1812 he was a reformed baptist pastor in manhattan who was in the midst of many controversies with people of opposing views theologically he had a precious and moving and touching relationship with his dear wife whose death radically affected him emotionally this is a really remarkable book it's by john thornberry a friend of mine who is now retired from the pastorate he is a baptist historian basically a christian historian in general a brilliant mind and a very well read and learned scholar and historian and this book published by evangelical press in the

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most days Monday through Friday it's 10am and 4 .30pm Eastern Time so take advantage of that while I still have copies of this extraordinary book available.

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Before I return to my guest Doug Kuyper we just have a few announcements to make regarding upcoming events that we hope that you will attend the first of which is my free pastor's luncheon that is going to take place in two weeks.

01:10:17

It's going to be Thursday, May 23rd 11am to 2pm at the

01:10:22

Carlisle Fire and Rescue Banquet Hall, Carlisle, Pennsylvania It's absolutely free of charge for all men in ministry leadership whether you are a pastor or elder and by the way

01:10:32

I think they're the same office a deacon, a parachurch leader any kind of leadership position if you're a man you are welcome to be a part of this free luncheon simply by sending me an email chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:10:46

chrisarnson at gmail .com and put pastor's luncheon in the subject line. Not only will you be fed for free, you'll hear a phenomenal message

01:10:56

I'm sure from my friend Dr. Tony Costa, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary He will be speaking on how the

01:11:04

Dead Sea Scrolls vindicate the reliability of the Bible and he'll be giving a PowerPoint presentation on that You'll also be receiving many free brand new books that I have been, that I have selected from major Christian publishers and also some wonderful but not so famous Christian publishers who have been generous enough to donate these books to us books that I have selected from them these are many of the publishers

01:11:30

Christian publishers in the United States and the United Kingdom who have donated these very generously every year going back to the 1990s and that's all free of charge no hidden agenda, no ulterior motives it's just as my precious late wife insisted, this is just a time of rest, relaxation, refreshment enjoyment, fun, fellowship feasting there is no

01:11:56

Amway product sales presentations or anything like that it's all for the blessing of men in the ministry as my wife insisted when she came up with the idea for this in the 1990s and I have carried on her tradition years after her departing this earth into glory

01:12:12

I have continued these luncheons in her memory and her honor so I hope that you attend, just send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:12:21

and that's Thursday, May 23rd, 11am to 2pm at the Carlisle Fire and Rescue Banquet Hall Carlisle, Pennsylvania then immediately following my luncheon

01:12:29

Dr. Costa and I are going to be packing up our bags and heading back to my old stomping grounds,

01:12:36

Long Island, New York where he is going to be speaking at a number of churches from Friday the 24th of May all the way through Sunday the 26th of May those churches include

01:12:47

New Hyde Park Baptist Church in Western Suffolk County Western Nassau County Long Island, New York Wading River Baptist Church which is in Central Suffolk County Long Island Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island also in Central Suffolk and Missio Church in Eastern Suffolk County which is in specifically

01:13:08

Ridge, New York if you want a full itinerary of where Dr. Costa will be preaching and teaching send me an email and just put

01:13:16

Dr. Tony Costa in the subject line and I'll send you his complete itinerary and then

01:13:21

I am going to be packing up my bags again and heading back to Pennsylvania, but not home I'll be heading to Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania for the

01:13:29

Banner of Truth East Coast Minister's Conference on the theme I Believe in the Holy Spirit Speakers include

01:13:36

Jeff Kingswood, Terry Johnson, David Vaughn Steve Nichols, Mike Morales and Chad Vegas that's

01:13:42

Tuesday, May 28th through Thursday, May 30th in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania at the

01:13:48

Elizabethtown College if you are a man in ministry leadership and want to register go to banneroftruth .org

01:13:55

banneroftruth .org, click on events and then scroll down to East Coast Minister's Conference, then after that a few months after that I'm heading back to New York City one of my favorite places in the world for the

01:14:09

Foundations Conference that's December 19th and 20th Thursday and Friday, December 19th and 20th in the center of Manhattan and I am looking forward to this conference as I do every year it's a conference that is run by sermonaudio .com

01:14:26

sermonaudio .com they are fine reformed folks that run that wonderful ministry and the roster includes

01:14:35

Dr. Stephen J. Lawson whose voice you've been hearing every day advertising New Covenant Church NYC one of our sponsors

01:14:42

Stephen J. Lawson is the founder of One Passion Ministries and I think one of the most profound preachers alive today

01:14:47

Paul Washer, another phenomenal, extraordinary preacher is on the roster Rev. Jeff Thomas, a man who should be known to every reformed

01:14:57

Christian or every Christian in general, but I'm certain is very well known to Banner of Truth lovers

01:15:03

Rev. Jeff Thomas is going to be on the roster Rev. Armin Tamasian a man who

01:15:08

I think is going to become a household name over the next decade, a truly gifted, powerful preacher even though he is a young pastor he has gifts and abilities far beyond his youth

01:15:18

Richard Caldwell Jr. and Andrew Quigley are two men I have never heard preach before, but since Sermon Audio selected them,

01:15:25

I am sure they are wonderful preachers as well if you want to attend this conference with me,

01:15:31

December 19th and 20th, register quickly because they can only hold a little less than 200 people in this venue in Manhattan so go to thefoundationsconference .com

01:15:44

thefoundationsconference .com and you can register there then in January I'm heading again to Atlanta, Georgia, more specifically

01:15:51

College Park, Georgia, a suburb of Atlanta to the Georgia International Convention Center for the

01:15:57

G3 Conference the G3 Conference stands for Gospel, Grace, and Glory and it is a wonderful Reformed Conference that is held every

01:16:05

January in the Atlanta area and I'm looking forward to manning an exhibitors booth there and if you are registering,

01:16:13

I hope that you greet me at my exhibitors booth. The theme this January is

01:16:19

Worship Matters and they have a phenomenal lineup including Kosti Hinn believe it or not, the nephew of the notorious charlatan

01:16:29

Word of Faith faith healer televangelist Benny Hinn. Kosti Benny Hinn's nephew has repented of the

01:16:37

Word of Faith heresy that he was raised in and he has made it his life's mission to expose the

01:16:44

Word of Faith movement for the dangerous and damning heretical movement that it is and he is going to be on that lineup

01:16:53

I am the one that actually introduced Josh Bice, the founder of the G3 Conference to Kosti Hinn so I hope that you take advantage of this opportunity to hear him speak.

01:17:03

David Miller, who is a really fine preacher of the gospel Derek Thomas, a name that is most likely very well known to most of my

01:17:11

Reformed listeners. Another very well known name is Dr. James R. White, a dear friend of mine since the 1990s

01:17:19

Joel Beakey another fine Reformed preacher that I've known since the 1990s the aforementioned

01:17:25

Josh Bice, founder of the G3 Conference. Paul Washer again is on the roster at this conference and so is

01:17:31

Stephen J. Lawson my friend Tom Askell Dr. Tom Askell is the Executive Director of Founders Ministries, the

01:17:38

Calvinistic movement within the Southern Baptist Convention and also Vody Baucom who is a remarkable

01:17:44

Reformed Baptist preacher, now serving the African Christian University in Zambia Africa.

01:17:51

If you would like to attend this conference, go to G3conference .com G3conference .com

01:17:57

It's going to be held Thursday, January 16th through Saturday, January 18th and I would strongly recommend that you register for an exhibitor's booth just like I will be

01:18:08

Manning if you have a church, parachurch ministry or business that you want to promote because of the fact that there's going to be over 5 ,000 people at this conference, as there are every year so I strongly urge you to not only register to attend, but register for an exhibitor's booth at G3conference .com

01:18:26

Lastly, if you love Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, you don't want us to disappear from the airwaves you love sharing the free downloadable

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MP3s with family, friends, and loved ones you love hearing the guests and topics that we frequently air that are never heard anywhere else on many occasions well please, help us continue to survive by going to IronSharpensIronRadio .com

01:18:48

click support then click, click to donate now I got some sad news today that one of my advertisers is going to need to discontinue their advertising after June.

01:19:01

It is a church that has had several families who are moving away from the

01:19:08

New York area and therefore they can no longer, at least at this point, afford to continue their advertising campaign, even though they have had people join the church through the advertising on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:19:20

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01:22:05

Douglas Kuyper that's ChrisArnsonGmail .com ChrisArnsonGmail .com

01:22:10

and before we went to the break, Professor Kuyper you were beginning to mention the well meant offer of the gospel, which is something that your denomination perhaps with few exception in the 21st century is in disagreement over perhaps we can in a summary fashion understand why you object to that and what is that exactly because there may be some confusion on exactly what that actually means.

01:22:44

Good, thank you. Certainly we do not dispute as you were saying also before the break that the gospel must be promiscuously preached throughout the whole world.

01:22:57

And many people believe that's what the well meant offer of the gospel is. And then we maybe have the question why call it an offer, but then if that's all it is maybe its substance were not so far different.

01:23:15

However the PRC's origins go back to the Christian Reformed Church's adoption of common grace the three points of common grace in 1924.

01:23:27

And when the Christian Reformed Church developed those three points, it made the well meant offer of the gospel an expression of the grace of God to all men everywhere so that the preaching of the gospel becomes an expression of God's will to save everyone who hears.

01:23:52

Now not everyone would put it that way. Not every individual. But you find that idea um being promoted it's consistent for instance with the

01:24:05

Arminian view of the preaching of the gospel. And those who use the term well meant offer of gospel might be divided into groups of some who don't mean it in the

01:24:20

Arminian sense, but others who do. Or at least they appear to express by the well meant offer that God wants all people to be saved.

01:24:30

And they use the word offer the way you are offering free books to men who come to your minister's lunch.

01:24:38

It's up to the man who comes to decide if he wants them or not.

01:24:45

And that is the common the Arminian view, and I say it's rather common in broadly

01:24:54

Reformed circles that that's what the preaching of the gospel is. God trying to convince man,

01:25:01

God trying to let man know what God is ready to do for him. And to that we object.

01:25:08

Therefore we object also to the idea that the gospel or salvation is offered.

01:25:16

Um, but none of this minimizes the fact that in the preaching of the gospel,

01:25:22

Jesus Christ is declared to be the only Savior. Jesus Christ is declared to be the sufficient

01:25:31

Savior. And men and women everywhere are called to faith and repentance in Him.

01:25:37

But it's not an offer, it's not an invitation. It's a command.

01:25:43

And would you agree with most of the

01:25:48

Reformed faith in the 21st century, I would say? Uh, at least most of the conservative wing of the

01:25:56

Reformed faith that agrees with the will men offer, that we are, since we do not know who the elect are, we don't know who the reprobate are because, as I mentioned earlier, the elect come out from even the most perverse of prostitutes in addition to the most pious of preachers.

01:26:13

We can't tell by the lifestyle of someone living whether they are elect.

01:26:19

We could tell very often if they are lost and unregenerate, but we cannot tell whether they are elect or reprobate because even people on death row have come to saving knowledge of Christ from behind bars after they repented and embraced

01:26:38

Christ. But would you say that we are to urgently and passionately preach to all men to repent and believe upon Christ?

01:26:48

Not as the Arminian does where we say to every single person that we encounter,

01:26:53

God loves you and died and Jesus Christ died for you. Obviously, I don't believe in the consistency of that because we don't know that if we believe in particular redemption or limited atonement, we cannot tell everybody

01:27:06

Jesus died for you. And we cannot tell everybody Jesus loves you and wants to save you, obviously.

01:27:12

But, can we urgently tell every person that we encounter repent and believe upon the name of Christ?

01:27:21

The apostle Paul did, so we may too. Amen. Well, I'm glad that you're in agreement with me over that and with the majority of our listeners that are

01:27:30

Reformed anyway. Well, as far as going to the main theme of the history of the

01:27:35

Synod of Dort, we basically spent a lot of the time understanding where Jacob Arminius was coming from, or at least even if we didn't understand where he was coming from, we knew basically in summary form where he was coming from.

01:27:52

How did this catch on within Christendom after the remonstrance?

01:28:02

Was the church in the Netherlands still dominated by Calvinism at this point?

01:28:09

Because today, as I'm sure you would agree, the Reformed faith is a minority in the globe where even in places where it was the majority as recently as the 19th century, it is certainly in a minority today.

01:28:25

What were the ramifications, the subsequent effects of this remonstrance?

01:28:33

Yes, the Arminian view did continue to grow. More and more men openly claimed to be on that side.

01:28:43

Back up just a second and realize that the Netherlands, the United Provinces, tolerated religious freedom.

01:28:54

You found Roman Catholicism, you found Anabaptism, but also

01:29:00

Reformed and now Reformed, I'm using the term loosely, including Arminian, the monstrant, was not only tolerated, but many of the government officials were sympathetic toward it.

01:29:16

And the big question became, were the government officials sympathetic toward the remonstrant or the contra -remonstrant position?

01:29:29

But the remonstrant position grew in numbers. The orthodox or the contra -remonstrant position developed and grew in that it had men realizing there's a fight and we have to defend the truth.

01:29:47

Then it comes down to, as far as the history goes, it came down to, in each province, was the government more sympathetic to the one side or the other?

01:30:03

And for that reason, there were provinces that were strongly leading remonstrant and other provinces that were strongly leading the other way.

01:30:13

That is building up to the Synod. I want to jump way ahead. Just point out, as regards the

01:30:21

Synod itself, not what leads up to it, but as regards the Synod itself, one reason

01:30:28

I wanted to be on your show late this week is that yesterday marked the end of the third phase of the

01:30:37

Synod. Four hundred years ago, on May 9, the foreign delegates were dismissed and their role then, the international character of the

01:30:54

Synod, was finished and the work of the Synod responding to Arminianism was finished.

01:31:02

The Synod was not finished. The Synod would meet for another three weeks with the

01:31:07

Dutch delegates taking care of other business. And I find intriguing some of the other matters that were dealt with.

01:31:19

Now, maybe I find it intriguing they're more narrowly reformed. They're matters of reformed church government and practice, and they're not quite as broadly applicable as the five points of Calvinism were and the opposing of the remonstrant error.

01:31:38

But when I speak of the history, I want to not forget the fact that we are 400 years later from the

01:31:52

Synod. It was yet meeting right now, and a significant phase just ended with the last phase to begin 400 years ago next

01:32:00

Monday. Well, praise God for his gift of the

01:32:08

Synod of Dort to the body of Christ. And all of us who are

01:32:15

Christians, I think, owe a great debt to those brothers 400 years ago assembled for what they produced and gave us, even those of us like Reformed Baptists who are outside of the

01:32:32

Reformed Church of the Netherlands, those that subscribe to the three forms of unity, the

01:32:40

Canons of Dort being a third of those three forms. We owe, I believe, a great debt to what the ramifications of that Synod today.

01:32:50

In fact, there is, I don't even know if you're aware of this, Professor Kuyper, but there is a

01:32:55

Reformed Baptist version of the

01:33:02

Heidelberg Catechism. So, you know, the Reformed Baptists do glean from the three forms of unity as well.

01:33:12

I am not aware of that. Was that version essentially the Heidelberg Catechism, just with changes to question and answer 74?

01:33:20

Or are there... I believe it is very faithful, except for matters involving paedo -baptism and church government.

01:33:29

Right. Okay. But, let's go to some of our listener questions.

01:33:38

We have, let's see here, we have

01:33:43

Christopher in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York. Christopher asks, do you think that the spread of the heresies of Jacob Arminius is what led to the eventual collapse of conservative,

01:34:03

Bible -believing Christianity in many regions of the world centuries later?

01:34:09

And I am especially thinking of those wonderful institutions that are

01:34:15

Ivy League schools that began as thoroughly Reformed places of higher learning that are now completely overrun by apostates and liberals.

01:34:27

Do you think that Arminianism has led to this kind of collapse of what was once historically

01:34:35

Reformed and Biblically faithful Reformed teaching? That's an interesting question.

01:34:44

And I think if I were to just simply say yes, it would be a little simplistic.

01:34:50

But the questioner makes a good point. From the 1600s on, you can trace where Calvinism has been strong and notice that wherever it once was strong, it now is not.

01:35:14

And the question I guess is, was Jacob Arminius and his teachings the explanation for that? And that's why

01:35:19

I say it might be a little simplistic. For one thing, Jacob Arminius' teachings in the

01:35:25

U .S. now are pretty well replaced by the Wesleyan Arminian teachings. Except for in narrowly

01:35:34

Reformed circles, perhaps, where Arminius is remembered. But it is true that wherever God is held out as sovereign, and wherever the

01:35:45

Church makes it stand for His sovereignty and salvation, that the truth will be opposed.

01:35:55

And as Christianity moves westward, I think that can be generally observed that the

01:36:03

Christianity and the Reformed faith has moved westward. What's left in the wake is, and I won't just say

01:36:12

Arminianism, but thoroughgoing liberalism. And Arminianism is a step in that direction, but what you see in the liberalism is a thoroughgoing rejection of even

01:36:24

Christianity. Arminius would have claimed to be a Christian. A Christian who was in conformity with the

01:36:35

Apostles' Creed and the Nicene -Constantinopolitan Creed. And he wanted

01:36:41

Reformed churches to say that he was also consistent with the Heidelberg Catechism and the

01:36:46

Belgic Confession. What you see now is nothing even close to that. Right.

01:36:53

I don't believe that you can consistently be a confessionally Reformed Christian and be liberal.

01:37:00

You would have to be violating very important concepts and teachings and doctrines within all of the historic confessions in order to embrace a liberal theology and ideology.

01:37:14

And I think that what the listener says makes sense in that if you teach that God loves every single human equally and in the same way, which is amazing that even some of my very strict right -wing

01:37:30

King James -only fundamentalists will say they believe that, that God loves everybody equally in the same way.

01:37:37

In fact, I had a conversation with a friend of mine who's in that category, a very conservative, strict right -wing

01:37:46

King James -only fundamentalist, and he said, I don't like Calvinism because you teach that God loves some people more than others.

01:37:51

And I said, okay, so do you believe that God loves you with the same depth and intensity and passion, the same parental love and the same spousal love that he loves you as those in hell?

01:38:06

And he was totally floored by the question and really had no answer for it. So obviously you would have to have a belief that God's love is not eternal and he stops loving people when he sends them to hell, or you have a really weird view of God loving people that are being tormented in hell.

01:38:24

But don't you see the compatibility where you could see how some of the teachings of Arminianism, which of course make man innately and intrinsically better than he is, and where God's love is equally spread out amongst the reprobate and the elected, all of humanity he loves equally, how that could lead to liberalism?

01:38:49

Yes, and the Senator Dort called

01:38:55

Arminianism Pelagianism, a renewal of Pelagianism.

01:39:01

And it just shows that if you're going to go back to a man -centered theology you're correct.

01:39:09

And so for our listeners who don't understand Pelagianism that's when Pelagius that figure from history debated

01:39:15

Augustine they differed on the nature of man, the intrinsic nature of man, whereas Augustine believed in the fact that we are born depraved, we are born with a religional sin,

01:39:28

Pelagius rejected that and basically said that man was a clean slate and his evil desires were learned attributes, and that grace although a very helpful thing, is not required for a human to believe upon Christ and follow him in a saving way.

01:39:46

Am I right in that summary? Yes. So it's amazing how so many people they, especially

01:39:58

I'm amazed by our very conservative fundamentalist brethren that believe in biblical inerrancy and so on who would prefer to side in many areas with Pelagius over Augustine and would rather side with Erasmus over Luther in the great debate of the

01:40:15

Reformation on the bondage of the will. But we have to go to our final break right now and this is going to be much more brief than the last break.

01:40:27

If you would like to send in a question and join Christopher in Suffolk County with a question of your own, and there are a couple of people still waiting for their questions to be asked and answered, send us an email now because we're going to be running out of time before you know it.

01:40:40

ChrisArnson at gmail .com ChrisArnson at gmail .com, don't go away God willing we'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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Spread the word about firstloveradio .org. Welcome back, and this is the last several minutes of our program today with Douglas Kuyper on the history of the

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Synod of Dort, and Professor Kuyper, if you could summarize anything that you'd like to say about the history of this

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Synod before I take one or two listeners if we have time to take their questions. It's too much to say in a couple minutes.

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It's just amazing, though, that God in his providence raised up the Synod. From every viewpoint, a couple years before it was held, it appeared it would not be held.

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The government of the Netherlands was not in favor of calling a national

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Synod. The government of the Netherlands as a whole was by and large sympathetic toward the

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Armenians. And again, I can't develop all of it, but here's an instance of not only

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God causing the church to stand firm for his truth, but also

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God arranging the details of history in such a way that at this exactly the right moment and at exactly the time when, because of the relationship between the church and the government, when the government would support the

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Orthodox Reformed view, that's when the Synod is held. And so it's amazing testimony to God's providence.

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We have B .B. in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who says, Do you think that during conversations like this we have to be very careful as not to give the wrong idea that God demands from us theological perfection and our understanding in order for us to be saved?

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It's true that God does not demand, let me put it this way, if the point of the question is that if one person doesn't understand the scriptures and truth as consistently and deeply as another, that doesn't jeopardize the salvation of the one.

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But that point I agree with. I'm not sure if the questioner is suggesting we were running that risk.

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I'd appreciate knowing how. But I'm going to add this. If we love our spouse, we will get to know them and want to get to know them more and more accurately.

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So it's not, first of all, a matter of am I saved because I know

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God more? And I must not look down on those who do not know him as accurately, but I must take his word and do my utmost to understand it.

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Amen, I agree with you 100%. And I just want to let our listeners know that if you want more information about Protestant Reformed Theological Seminary, you can go to prcts .org,

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prcts .org. Do you have any other contact information that you care to give,

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Professor Kuyper? Well, the denomination website would be prca .org, so they could learn more about the denomination there, and even perhaps find a church somewhat in their vicinity or wherever they'll be traveling in the summer holidays.

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And, of course, the publishing wing of your denomination, Reform Free Publishing, can be found at rfpa .org,

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rfpa .org. Thank you so much, Professor Kuyper, for being my guest today. I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write.

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I hope you all have a very safe and blessed and happy weekend and Lord's Day, and I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater